When will the Public Services Commission agree a pay deal with its staff?
Talks between unions and the government body have been ongoing for some time, with unions recently rejecting the PSC's latest offer in a ballot.
Chair of the Public Services Commission Kate Lord-Brennan has been telling us their stance:
Hi I'm Sean, one of the news editors at Manx Radio. Now for months negotiations have been ongoing between the Public Services Commission and unions over a pay deal for public sector workers. Recently those unions' members voted to reject the offer on the table from the PSC. So just where is it up to now and what exactly is the sticking point? Myself and Alex were joined on breakfast by Kate Lord Brennan, chair of the Public Services Commission. What there's been coverage about is you know standard negotiations between the Public Services Commission which which I chair you know I don't have a sole authority by any means over public sector pay and the coverage has been over standard negotiations. Now to apply a pay award the Public Services Commission you know needs to agree with that with the union so we can't we can't just apply an agreed pay award you know without coming to an agreed position so we're still in talks to answer your question but the point I'd really like to make that in in the face of demands from the unions which if met would actually mean that a pay award of 20 percent approaching 20 percent within three years would would be applied if those union demands are met. What needs to be understood is that in the past two years a pay award of six percent has been applied in each year and so whilst you recognize that having you know good remuneration and recognition for for valuing staff is important and everybody of course would want to have reasonable pay awards. What's absolutely in the commission's mind is that we need to have some reasonableness in this. There needs to be affordability taken account of so we will you know the commission met yesterday and we will talk more and consider what any next stage offer to the unions will be. We've talked throughout the year we rely on more claims coming in and coming to an agreed position so that we can apply a pay award. What's interesting as well is that every percentage pay award costs the taxpayer in excess of 1.5 million and it's not just the monthly pay but it's the impact of course on the public sector pension contributions. So with the good pay awards already been given you know I think that the commission is taking a reasonable approach. We can't have a year on a year high pay awards we need to come to a reasonable position and I'm hopeful that we will but there's nothing unusual that's going on at this time of year that hasn't gone on in other times of the year. The unions disagree somewhat they've described the the latest pay offer as unacceptable and disgraceful this is prospect and unite. What are you going to do to change that perception? Well I think that you're a bit of context it'll always need it isn't it really so I think that the arguments made by the unions saying well of course we want a pay award that's matching the UK of course we want that well actually here on the Isle of Man the pay awards that the public services commission employees which are mainly the civil service the pay awards they've had in the past two years which have accumulated effect have been in excess actually of what the UK have got already. So you know you need to look at it in the broader context relevant to the Isle of Man you know I don't think that the office made should be described as that we will keep talking we we do talk directly to them and listen but I don't think anybody would think that a pay award approaching 20% within a three-year period would be something that would be reasonable acceptable and I don't see when I talk to my constituents or businesses that they're in a position to either offer their employees or get themselves you know pay awards you know for example of six percent that we've had over the past couple of years so we're treating things fairly but we've got to have an impact an assessment of the impact on the on public finances and where this money comes from which is of course the taxpayer so we want to resolve it but we can only do that by some more talking and we can only give a pay award to our employees if we get some support for the offers that that we make. In terms of unites they're asking for a sliding scale which would mean that the highest earners would receive less than the the low and middle earners are you considering that I'm led to believe that you're possibly not. Well we do look at all of these things and I think that the difficulty that the commission as the employer has is that we need to think about pay awards across the board and we need to think about the impact on people that are maybe going for promotions or going for higher grades and where the actual grading of the staffs it so whilst I completely understand that you also have unions that themselves have a different view as well so you know that that's why the discussions are important and you know it's not possible just to meet one particular demand we need to look at it in the round for all of the staff that it might be might be relevant to and of course we're not actually clarity public services commission it's not the employer of doctors teachers nurses or you know the full range of public sector employees but it is a marker so to explain further when the PSC applies a pay award there are a number of organizations that buy analogy of their own volition if you like they decide to set their pay on that basis so we've got an impact on short-term costs long-term pension costs and then any or the organization that buy analogy apply that pay award so we've got a big responsibility here and we need to find a reasonable and affordable way forward. In terms of good return to the the sliding scale though as you said there's a number of organizations I know that the mhks and ministers and things like that your pay is linked with the the pay award for the public sector so if the sliding scale wasn't incorporated like mhks like yourself and your colleagues and ministers and things like this would get sizable increases at the top end of the scale whereas maybe a customer services officer at the bottom wouldn't get the same scale of increase I mean is that considered fair? Well I think that the only point to make on that is rightly at ten more members including ministers politicians we don't set our own pay that's not something that we set on and vote on so the responsibility of the commission is to think about the pay award across the board across all of the grades and actually the the impact that that has um between the grades and all the different earning scales in that and you know the different levels of responsibility my personal feeling is I get it I get that point about the the the the lower grades however the public sector is generally pretty well paid over here again you know if you want to the people other people join this comparison between the UK and the Isle of Man if you look at the the range of the grades at either end of the scale the Isle of Man is is paid better than in the UK if people wish to draw that comparison and I don't think it's a good idea to think about splitting the workforce if you like between some people who get and some people who don't but I are a sure people that when we look and we negotiate when we talk about these things we do take on board that you know the sorts of points that are made there and you know by both unions but they have of course different views coming back to the the pay deal in the UK we know that there are certain sectors within in the public service that have some recruitment challenges from a perception of Ireland when they see a pay deal like that's that's been put forward in the UK versus what's on offer here you can say that that could cause some challenges for recruitment well I think that you know again it needs to be looked at in specifics so you know you could look at the UK and look at what's been offered in the past two years in in March 2022 they've seen civil servants junior and senior civil servants what offered a pay increase of two percent departments had flexibility to pay up and so up to three as I said we've had six percent the past two years you know similarly 2023 they had you know an offer of 4.5 up to five percent for the lowest pay so again if you want to draw comparisons you've got to do it side by side public service commission employees in the Isle of Man civil service have been given pay awards higher than the UK already and on analysis of the demanding paid more in terms of going forward we've heard a lot from the unions on this already I know the talks are still ongoing but when this is all wrapped up will you come back and have a big in-depth talk about this whole topic with us because there is so much to it there is a lot but also I think we need to be really mindful that this is people's salaries and it's their live pay negotiation so I don't actually believe that having this kind of megaphone diplomacy tip for tap playing this stuff out in the media is actually good or conducive I think it can you know heighten things and actually there are there are good and serious reasons why these these matters need to be concluded so I get the interest but you know I felt that I've needed to come on to respond to repeated requests I think as a matter of course pay negotiations they should just be kind of handled in the direct way between the bodies involved and actually there are you know the something that I've done is to make sure that PSC employees do actually receive awareness directly from the commission of the office made therefore not just relying on the information coming from from unions taken to your earlier point though you were talking about the fact that yes these payer war comes from taxpayers money I mean if I quote your election manifesto you say that I believe we deserve a government that serves the interest of the people not itself one that champions accountability and as you mentioned there we've put in 15 requests for an interview that you've now come on this morning do you not feel though that whilst these are people's salaries you have a duty to be accountable to the taxpayers as you say who are paying all of this money out to actually keep the taxpayers informed and so I am I'm not personally setting or determining pay awards so my role in the commission is I chair that there's there's lay members on that as well we talk directly with the unions I stand by everything I've said in my manifesto and that's actually probably why you know you find I've communicated more than than most of you know and I've been quite active and in you know in in pain negotiations as a politician actually but I also think you need to kind of give you a call to process you want to get to resolution you don't necessarily want to be you know inflaming the situation in in other ways so you know we've met with the unions number of times I'm sure we'll meet again very soon and and discuss it I take your point and I stand by everything instead of my manifesto that's actually partly why I've taken the position that I have when do you feel it's going to be all wrapped up as it were when would you like to see an agreement reached well we would we would like to see an agreement for you know a three-year deal so actually that means then people are not waiting for pay awards to be applied the commission isn't waiting for what they call pay claims to come in which we have to wait for that to come in before we can respond so a longer-term deal is what we would we would like to see and you know I've said previously directly to employees you know we want to we want to conclude this so they can get paid but we can't just apply it you know laterally as I think some people you may think that that that we can you know we can't but in the face of the very decent pay awards that've been offered already and we need to get to a position which is reasonable works for everybody and I hope that we can do that very soon final one for me in terms of there's been obviously announcements this week and talk about how the government is fighting misinformation out there and wanting to get clear information across in this era of fake news and social media I reiterate Charles requests there that once all this is wrapped up would you come back and talk to us because you've mentioned there some misinformation as to who is covered by public sector pay who isn't and because out there there is there is a lot of ignorance in the general public as to what it is would you come back and tell us you know more in-depth as to what's actually involved once the negotiations are complete I think I'd consider that at the time what I would say is actually there's a lot of information that that's out there already you know overall you know people think that things like salary bans pay bans grades employment groups are all a mystery then they're not a lot of that that is open and available you know I'm just conscious that in my role of chair of the PSC you know I'm trying to get to a position where we can have a negotiated pay settlement I'm not doing that in a ministerial capacity I'm not setting it by myself I understand the interest but actually these discussions around pay are kind of always they're always they're always going on you know ultimately it's the departments where the budget also has to has to come from so in terms of the finances there are many other sets of accountability lines that go up that are absolutely you know beyond beyond the commission and beyond myself. Thank you for making it to the end of the Manks Radio newscast you are obviously someone with exquisite taste may I politely suggest you might want to subscribe to this and a wide range of Manks Radio podcasts at your favorite podcast provider so our best bits will magically appear on your smartphone. Thank you. you (gentle music)
