213Hoops: The Lob, The Jam, The Podcast

The Upside of the Underdog Clippers w/ Michael Pina

Shap welcomes back Michael Pina (@MichaelVPina) to talk about one of his favorite basketball subjects, the Los Angeles Clippers. The guys review what the Clippers have lost in Paul George, but talk about the new identity for the new look Clippers, and what pits them in the thick of the middle tier out West. Can the Clippers surprise based on their national expectation? The guys close going through the 10 man rotation and what they think of each player in that rotation.

Duration:: 1h 7m
Broadcast on:: 06 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

I'm Brian Seaman and you're listening to the LOB THE JAM, THE PLOTCHEST. What's up, everyone? It's the LOB THE JAM, THE POTCHEST. I'm Chipong coming to you with a special guest, Michael Pina from The Ringer. Michael put out an article last week on The Clippers and as somebody who's come on the pod before, I just had to bring him back and enjoy one of the national writers that doesn't take an opportunity to shit on the Clippers whenever he can. Instead, he goes the opposite way which I enjoy quite a bit. Michael, how are you? I'm good, Chipin, how are you? I'm good. I'm just hanging out here a little bit. I have to ask you to start off. Why can't you quit The Clippers, Michael? I know you talked about it a little bit on your article, but vocally, I want you to express yourself for everybody to hear. Yeah, it's a good question. I think, fundamentally, I start with Kawhi Leonard and I think I end with Kawhi Leonard. I think he is just somehow still underrated. I think he is a generational winner, like a transcendent two-way player, an almost perfect offensive weapon who has won multiple defensive player of the year awards. And when he turns it up, there's just nothing like it in the NBA still, I think. Obviously, his health is what people first think of when they think about Kawhi Leonard, which is really a basketball tragedy to me. And I don't blame people for having that viewpoint. But to me, and I, you know, Tyler kind of said this recently in an article on ESPN talking about why he does not think the last five years, he will not qualify them as a failure in the sense that the team was always good enough to win it all. They just weren't healthy enough at the right time. And in my opinion, that's like bad luck. It's like, I'm not a doctor like you. And I can't factor that stuff too much into when I'm making a projection or I'm looking at a basketball team and how good that they can be. So for me, it's like all the doubt and the criticisms are somewhat fair. But at the same time, if you can't give me like concrete basketball reasons, why they don't deserve or did not deserve to be included in a conversation with some of the better teams at basketball, then yeah, like it's really, it's a difficult thing to do. I've found so why I couldn't quit them, can't quit them. It's Kawhi. And then I'm sure we'll get into the rest of the team right now and kind of what this season might look like as opposed to what some in the past did. I don't mind touching on that a little bit before we move on to the team. You've talked about Paul George being a great co-pilot. Paul George has been a lightning bolt for criticism recently amongst Clippers, Twitter and NBA Twitter, because he happens to have a podcast. And when you're on a podcast, sometimes you say some nonsense. And he's had his dad on recently, talked about getting quote unquote backstabbed. I kind of curious, you know, even though I agree with you, I don't consider the two and three era with George and Kawhi a failure because the high last year, as far as I'm concerned, was as high as this franchise has ever gotten, even though they made the Western Conference Finals, you know, years ago, that was the first time I saw the team and I was like, Oh, this team, this team could really, really go far. And then of course, Kawhi gets hurt and which is, you know, story of a Clipper fans lives. But how would you qualify how Paul George was as a Clipper? Because I feel like it's people who come from the Clippers fear really go up and down with it. And it's mostly down right now because he can't stop talking. But how would you see how Paul George was a Clipper and ultimately judge him, you know, fresh off that great Oklahoma city season and having a few seasons with this team in his prime? Yeah, I also think that Paul George throughout the last five years has mostly been an underrated figure. I think he's also one of the better, you know, two-way wings that the NBA has seen in quite some time. And his general flexibility on both ends is invaluable in the modern game. I mean, he's a three-level score. He can guard a lot of different positions really well. Not a perfect player for sure, but also someone who does not need to, I mean, where he kind of gets in a little bit of trouble is wanting the ball versus being so well and effective without it. And you can run actions for him as a decoy. He's just really brilliant off-screenings in motion. And so I thought that, you know, last year they went on this stretch where they were 26 and 5, I think. And the way that Paul George kind of fit next to harden as a predominant, the primary ball handler and then Kawai doing his thing was just kind of perfect for him in a lot of ways at this stage in his career. And, you know, when I think about him as like the best version of Paul George, I always go back to 2021 after Kawai Leonard got hurt. I thought Paul George was like on another planet in that playoff run. And they obviously did not make the finals, but he was so like, he was everything for them, like against the Suns and, you know, closing out that series against Utah. So I don't know, I just think Paul George is really good. You know, health is another variable with him for sure. And that's been very frustrating for, I'm sure, Clipper fans. And the way he played against the Dallas Mavericks in last year's postseason was also, I think, pretty disappointing for Clipper's fans, particularly in the last two games. But I think he's awesome. And, you know, it'll be really interesting to see kind of how he fits in with Tyrese Maxie and Joel and Beaten, everybody else on the Philadelphia 76ers next season. You know, I'm not going to say too much about Paul George, we've talked about home a bunch, but I will say, as the reality has said that he's gone repeatedly, and I felt this way when George left that the guy that I'll thank, man, we really could use a guy like this is Paul George. We could use a guy who could move off ball, who can shoot, who's a score. There's a huge scoring void with the Clippers right now. There's a big spacing void with the Clippers right now. There's a big off ball movement void with the Clippers right now. You can only do so much with Norm Powell, which the Clippers will do. He'll get exploited on the other end because he's not been a good defender as a Clipper. And he can't, Norm can't really put the ball on the floor. So, and Paul George can. I will say that I think this contract of George's will make him very comfortable as an off ball guy, a guy that runs a lot of decoy action. And I think I am hoping, as he matures, he's going to get out of this mindset of I should have the ball in my hands, I should be an on ball creator. I need pick and roll touches because I felt him moving towards that way with James Harden. But I think that there was a little bit of a still of a give and take that he was just like, well, you know, I still need to find my space here where I felt like the Clippers were the perfect space. Unfortunately, you know, we're not going to release that coalesce, but he's going to have to do a lot of it with Tyree's maxi who is by all means one of the most joyous players I've seen play basketball in a long, long time. And I think it will hopefully rub off George in our right way. And as he grows and his game probably becomes less of one that he wants to be an on ball guy. And more of a quote unquote glue guy, where he's an off ball, which he said as much himself that maybe he needs to be like, he said so many contradicting things, Michael, I can't even. But as he grows into this new contract, and it becomes an off ball guy, more so, and a guy comfortable defending and not complaining about defending because he's going to need to defend up as they are right now, which he did a bit as a clipper, you know, he said he guarded some power forwards when he was a clipper because they had a power forward void themselves. I'm interested in his progression as a basketball player. And I'm, I wish he didn't have a podcast because I just don't think he's great speaking about I think he really wants to control his narrative. And as somebody who's not quite sure how he wants to play as a player sometimes, it leaves him with quotes that would disagree with himself all the time. He says, he contradicts himself so much as because he's given himself a platform. Kudos to him. He's controlled the narrative really well. He has not talked about the Mad Frick series at all. He was dog shit in the matter except for one half. He was great in one half of basketball and one shot in the fourth quarter in that game. It was a great shot. It was a great shot. It was, it's Paul George in a nutshell. He had a law of entry pass that he fumbled, dribble, dribble, dribble, shot cuts running out step back quarter three. What the hell, you know, it was doing the craziest shots I've ever seen they lose that game without that shot. But it really is a lot of Paul George stuff. He's, he's an improv, improvising Matt Maestro. And it's like a good thing and a bad things. It feels like he doesn't have his spots, but he can equally just kill you from anywhere. But I think that Paul George is a, is a very good basketball player. And Clipper fans are going to miss his on court stuff this year. And I don't know if they quite realize it yet. But as, as soon as he left, I'm like, man, we could really use a guy who could, that's why Zach Levine came to mind right away, because he's kind of Paul Georgie, except shorter. It can't quite defend like him. He has all this health stuff. And I think a lot of clipper fans thought of Levine, but it's really just because they're trying to replace literally Paul George and. Oh, God. Yeah. I don't even know what you're, what you're considered, what your thoughts about the Clippers are trying to have contract flexibility in 2026, which is a big reason they don't want Zach Levine a big reason nobody wants Zach Levine. It's because he's guaranteed past that year. But this will lend pretty easily into our conversation about their new players. So the Clippers went this way. They, they got some role players. They brought back Niko Batum. They got Mo Bamba also from the Sixers, Chris Dunn, Derek Jones, junior who locked down Paul George in the playoffs. You know, you talked a little bit about these guys on the edges that they brought in. I feel like it really changes their idea from their mentality, from real defensive minded, you know, we're not going to let you score in us. But then the offensive void is just feels huge, especially if quiet or James Hardy misses games. How do you feel about those additions and how do you think they're going to fill that void and kind of change the culture on this team? I think individually, I like all of these players. I'm a huge Chris Dunn fan. I think just, you know, obviously, if he played more minutes last year with the Utah Jazz, he would have made mild defensive team. I think he's just phenomenal tone setter on that end full court. I have always been driving the Nicholas Batum fan bus, Torbus, bandwagon, whatever, like, love that guy still. And bringing him back was just like a no-brainer, I feel like, for the Clippers. And they kind of missed him the second that they got rid of him. He's just such a valuable player and was critical for the Philadelphia 76ers last season. And, you know, Derek Jones, junior is an interesting one because, you know, he's been so long kind of flailing around the league on vetman contracts. And then the way he played towards the end of last season, you know, after the trade deadline in Dallas and then in the playoffs before the finals, and he did not have a good finals at all. But heading into that, shut the ball really well, was a big, had a big impact on on Dallas's pace and defensively held his own guarding, you know, some of the better offensive players in basketball. So he's, he's an interesting one, just as a role player. And I thought he thrived beside Luca. And, you know, Luca's game is so similar to like Pete James Harden. So I think that, you know, if you're the Clippers and you saw that and Harden is just like, he is so important for the Clippers this season. I thought that, you know, getting someone who could accentuate Harden and fit conceivably accentuate Harden's strengths and really makes sense next to him. I thought that that signing at that money was really smart. And, you know, you go up and down the roster from there, I like all the players. I just think that, you know, you hit some of the shortcomings with this roster. If Harden misses time or is not like really good, they're just in a lot of trouble. I think you can survive. I don't want to say with Kawhi in and out of the lineup. But I just feel like Harden might actually be the most important player for them this season. And I'm also like a pro Harden person and have been for basically his entire career and still am. And I think contextually when you look at some of the numbers that kind of indicate or signal decline with him. I look at the situations that he's been in the last few years as part of that. And I think that this upcoming season, he will return to a role that really is, you know, give James Harden the ball and let him be a magician. And we'll see how that goes. I think that, like, I'm more pro on that being a positive for the Clippers and why I wrote the piece I did. But who knows with James Harden, you know, like, he's, we'll see. But I like his skill and I like the fact that he's just going to have the ball in his hands a lot and he's going to make a ton of decisions. And I think that a lot of their offense will play to his strengths. And I think that he could have one or two more years in him of averaging double digit assists and averaging over 20 points efficiently and, you know, getting back to the free throw line and being the efficient isolation player, a hyper-efficient isolation player that he also was last year but has been earlier in his career too. Yeah, let's take a quick break. I'll come right back. Talk a little bit about Harden after this. Oh, right. We are back. So the James Harden thing is interesting. I think I agree to you kind of on a game to game, Harden being good, really, maybe affecting the Clippers as, you know, as you know, like, why is why he's going to find his spots? He'll get to them. He'll get his shots when Kawhi shoots badly. It's almost, to me, it's almost never because a team stopped him. It's because he got to his spots and he missed shots. Maybe somebody's length bothered him a little bit more, but he's he's him for lack of a better word. James Harden will be interesting because I do worry, you know, where is James Harden's spots on the basketball court as far as scoring? You know, we know he has a killer step back. His mid-range game has been a little bit suspect. His finishing at the rim has been a little bit suspect. You know, I definitely remember particularly as a sixer that the Celtics were just daring him to score at the rim. And it showed a little bit of contest and he was having some difficulty there. And this team spacing wise is going to be an issue here. And Derek Jones Jr. shot well in the playoffs, but he did not shoot really well in the regular season, you know. And did he catch a hot streak or is he having a trajectory that's going up? We have to see Chris Dunn isn't necessarily a positive spacer. Terrence Mann gets his hesitant to shoot threes for usually the first three months of the season. You know, there's a lot of these non-spacer types you have Norman Kawai that are like your shooters and Nico and Nico honestly is just a reflection of how good the ball is moving, whether or not he takes threes a lot of the time because he's he's the smartest basketball player, one of the smartest basketball players I've ever seen and he knows the difference between a good and a bad shot. So I do worry that teams will just cheat a ton off a guy like Derek Jones Jr. in the quarter and really dare him to shoot. And if they're not showing hard in that space on his drives to the middle, how he's going to be able to manipulate things relative to Luca Dancic, who is the score that James Harden was, you know, I do think that the key to guarding Harden over the last couple of seasons is just trying to force him to be a scorer. And if you force him to be a scorer off the three-point line, can he be that guy anymore? I think that's the biggest question. And if he can be that guy, then he's still going to be able to manipulate the defense. If he can't be that guy, then the offense will go down with him, you know. So I think that's my biggest question. I don't have an answer because he didn't really have to be that guy. He did just enough as a playmaker last year that everything kind of fit when things were going well. And then when a guy was missing, you could see that Harden wasn't the scorer he was. So if he's able to be that kind of scorer, I think that the Clippers will be fine. I absolutely think he'll be able to get to that 20-point-per-game situation, you know. But people kind of forget what an amazing scorer prime James Harden was. And where we get between now James Harden and prime scoring James Harden as a scoring threat is my biggest question mark. I think for the Clippers, even this season, because it really will dictate how he can move the chess pieces around him. I still think he's one of the best passers in the league. I'll be a top-by passer. It's just going to be the matter that people are like, "Okay, we have to guard you on this ride. We have to guard you in the paint." Because he got dared to shoot all those floaters in that game that he beat the Mavericks in. And they just stayed the course. They were like, "Keep shooting those floaters, man. You're not going to mix seven out of eight of them in this next game." And he did it, you know. So I'm very curious on how he is as a scorer, because I think that's going to change the entire table for the Clippers. And I don't know. Do you see things? I feel like I know your guy Kevin O'Connor early on last season had a graphic about James Harden's decline in like five years of the season. Not going to talk about it. How do you see Harden as a scorer? And do you feel like he's lacking compared to even, you know, let's say how much he's lacking compared to pre hamstring Harden, you know, and how that's going to affect how the Clippers can score. Because I don't have much of a, I think the Clippers should be a top 10 defense. I mean, they have the personnel to have that ceiling. And that should be enough. But I don't think they're going to be elite elites. And that offense should still hopefully be top 15. I'm not even sure if they're going to be consistently able to be like a top 15 offense, that James Harden speaks against that historically. Like James Harden has led top five offenses for the last decade plus. But will he be able to do that now with all these lack of scores and shooters around him? I think that's my question as far as what this team ceiling is versus being a top six team that can maybe make the playoffs outright or a 10th team, you know? Yeah, I think that there's a little bit, maybe a little bit more gravity. Like when I'm when I'm envisioning, you know, him running high pick and roll with a, with a Vitza Zubots. And, you know, the defense has to choose, are we going to stay home in the corners? Are, you know, what, what is our coverage going to be? I just feel like there's a little more gravity for him to make things happen, whether it's the pocket pass on the roll or, you know, we'll see like the Dallas Mavericks are unique matchup, right? Like they were one of the best rent protecting teams in, I think they were the best rent protecting team in basketball after the trade deadline. Yeah. So that's kind of a, you know, not everyone can do that with the two-headed monster they had at the five. But, you know, Harden getting all the way downhill, either finishing at the basket, the floater looked pretty good last season, or getting to the free throw line more, which was something that he did not do at a rate that you would, you're accustomed to seeing from him. And I think that there's a few factors there. You know, his health is one. I think that the rule changes after the all-star break were a particular hit for him. And so we'll see kind of how he is able to adjust to that. But like when I look at the spot up threats that he'll have on a semi-regular basis, like, you know, I think Norm Powell is one of the best spot-up shooters in basketball. I'm not leaving Nick Batum alone, particularly in the corners. He's got a quick release. He can knock those down. Obviously, Kawhi Leonard, whatever he's doing, he has gravity pretty much wherever he is on a basketball court. And then, you know, well, yeah, no, like true to good point. Like, I think that then you have to really start talking yourself into things like how real is Derek Jonas Jr.'s outside shot? And at a high volume, is he going to make over 35% if it is a high volume? Maybe, maybe not. I think like his gravity is certainly something that Tai Lu will kind of, like, I don't think you just leave Derek Jonas Jr. in the corner if he's not being guarded for an entire basketball game. That's just not smart. And Tai Lu's too ingenious to not have a solution there. But yeah, it's interesting just the question marks besides that. You do definitely make a good point there. Like, you have your Amir Coffees, you have your Terrence Mann's who, you know, Terrence Mann's also like an okay corner three point shooter. Interesting one, not one that I think you can just completely ignore. Last I checked PJ Tucker still on the basketball team. I don't know what his role is going to be this upcoming season, but I would love it. I'd love to see him have more juice left in the tank. That would be really cool. I mean, they also will be the only time that is set on this podcast. But yeah. And you know, those two have obvious chemistry for like years and years and years together. So I think there's a case to be bullish. There's about this situation and him and kind of the increased responsibility that he'll have on the offensive end. And then, you know, tempering that with like, I think that like other guys will have to fill in and do more than they have it other times in their career or even last season on this team. And what's really interesting just in why I love basketball is like you, you're about to see like Terrence Mann in a situation that he's never been in. And so we'll see how he responds to that. What if he suddenly is, you know, able to make plays out of a high pick and roll or as a secondary ball handler or tertiary ball handler or because I just, I feel like he's really had to taper his skill set over the past few seasons with Paul George there, who I being such a high volume player, high usage player. I'm definitely not as high on. I think we know who Norm Powell is at this point in his career, for sure. I don't want him like handling the ball or playing point guard, which was an experiment. Tyler had a couple of years ago and training camp and talked about that. And it just like did not work. But I think that Norm Powell, you know, you throw him the ball, pump and go, can do stuff. And he's an underrated athlete as well. So I think there's certain lineups that harden can and can't play in and certain players on the team that don't make sense next to him, be it offensively or like defensively, which I think is like the we're talking a lot about offense. Like I think defense is going to be kind of the bread and butter identity of this basketball team also. And so there are certain players who because of who harden is and, you know, the energy he will exert on offense, like you can't have too many weak links on the other side of the ball when he's out there and I expect him to play, you know, at least 30, 32, 33 minutes of game this season. So yeah, it's it's just it's like as someone who's just really enthusiastic about harden and seeing him in this role, I'm optimistic, but I can understand why people are not and why people have completely given up on this team and given up on this era. I just think that there's a lot of talent here. There's a lot of continuity here and there's great coaching. So that's why and I also I should say like, I don't think they're gonna go to the finals or anything like that. So like, I know I'm bearing the lead there with that, but I do think that the Western Conference is really interesting this season because it is so there's just a glut of competence. There's like, you can say the Oklahoma City Thunder are, you know, the best team by far and they're the juggernaut. We'll see. I think that there's a lot of, like, I think that the third seat or the fourth seat and like the 13th seat are going to be separated by like three or four games. I think that the margins are going to be really small. And if you get healthy, harden, if you get pretty healthy, Koai, who by the way, like he was healthy last season and I think he started the first 27 games in a row or something like that. Tyler says he's gonna be healthy enough for training camp talks to him all the time. So if you get all that, I just don't see why the Clippers can't be in the mix and finish, you know, could finish as like the sixth seat, the fifth seat, sixth seat, whatever. So like, I just am reacting also to just, you know, they're the over under the wind total projections. I just thought that that was like really silly, like really low. And you look at a team like the Lakers, it's like, I'll take the Clippers over the Lakers this season any day. So yeah, just pushing back a little bit on the pessimism. And I understand it, but I just think some of it to a degree is a little much. Yeah, I mean, Koai Leonard and James Harden, if nothing else had been magnets for regular season wins, that's for sure. Let's talk a little bit about James Harden's running mate, you kind of eluded to a little bit zoo who just got paid $60 million around $60 million for the next three years. And maybe take a little bit of that Paul George void, we saw him flash some offensive skill against the Mavericks against those big centers that they have, has shown a lot of competency with those pocket passes from James Harden. If you're not really having a guy like that, I could throw him consistent pocket passes right where he could catch them. You know, there's a lot of hope that zoo will be able to maybe get some touches and scores a little bit more. I see people kind of rate zoo all around the center totem pole. I've seen some people call him a load, a 20s type of center. As far as the best center's league, I've seen people call him in somewhere in the teens. Probably is between there, you know, I would imagine that he's kind of a mid tier center, but he just got paid. He's in his prime. I think there's going to be a little bit of expectations for him to maybe have a steadier role as far as touches and being in the offense more, not just that token. Here's the first possession of the basketball game zoo that Kendrick Perkins touched, I like to call it. But I think that he will hopefully be in the offense more tightly with smart enough that I think he'll realize that zoo is pretty capable. It's just a huge skilled guy. And there's just not too many guys that have that combination of big and skill in the NBA. Where do you think of zoo as far as when you think of centers? I know he's nowhere near the top of the cream of the crop, but curious on your take considering you watch your share of national games and just games around the league in general, as far as where you think zoo kind of tears off as far as it's been a little bit of conversation amongst Clipper fans and NBA fans with this recent contract of his. I like him a lot. I think he's super competent on both ends and has really good hands, can finish around the basket. Huge body, great screener, can pass a little bit, has some post game, holds his own defensively in the post, and can rim run a little and hit free throws. I just think given what a lot of teams need out of the center position, he checks a lot of boxes. And I don't know where I would put him ranking. If I'm ranking all the starting centers, I'd say he's like about, I don't know, he's just like he's in my head average, which is like fine and good. And I don't know how much you want to expand his role necessarily, but you can play through him for stretches. And it'd be a little interesting, for sure. He does have a little bit more skill than I think he gets credit for. And yeah, I thought that his pick and roll chemistry with Hardin was magnificent once it really started to take off. And having a big body like that for Hardin is absolutely critical. And the other thing I'll say is he, I know I said that Hardin's like the most important player this season, but like you look at the front court, Zoo is really important for this team. And you know, forget about like, the Clippers are lacking up front. That's one of their biggest issues. And if you look at the Western Conference, the really good teams, they're big, and they have imposing players at that position, and they will bully you. It's really smart to, I mean, just like kind of the trend of where the whole league is going, but like big and skill is really important. And I think like if he were to go down, sprain his ankle or something, like they would just be in a lot, I just like like Mo Bamba, I don't, you know, I can't we've kind of seen who he is in the NBA. And I'm not maybe he is like the best backup center in the league this season, but I don't, I'm just not a huge fan there. So I think that, you know, I'd love for like, I love Plumlee there. Like, I think Plumlee was like a really good useful player in his role. And the drop off to from Plumlee to Bamba slash like Batum Tucker at the five or whatever. I don't know how crazy Tyler is going to have to go and what he's going to try. But it just feels like potentially that could be a weak point on this team for sure and rebounding the basketball. And so Zoo is just really important there. And I think he's like good enough to handle a lot of that responsibility. But, you know, like can't get in foul trouble, can't get hurt. There's a lot of pressure on him to be awesome, I think. Yeah, he's going to have to hold that steadiness. And Zoo has been kind of public about talking about men. It's like, so we don't have Kawhi Leonard, well, he's not going to have Paul George the entire season. So he's going to need to stay steady all year and not let the noise around him get to him. Because I think I think we've mentioned here that Zoo's body language sometimes affects his game a little bit. And he's going to be dependent on a lot this season. So hopefully he shows out a bit. Let's take one more quick break. And we're going to reconvene with an exercise we did back in like January last time Michael was here after this. All right, we're back. So Michael, before we let you go, we're going to go through this one more time. We're going to go through the top 10 rotation for this team. And I want you to just give like a quick take as we go, we can go back and forth. We'll start with the first, the best clipper, and then we'll go down the line into the 10th, the most important clipper. And I want to hear you say why. All right, so obviously, who do you think the best clipper is, Michael? I think it's Kawhi Leonard. I think I think so too. I think Kawhi is pretty good. And we'll just say James Hardin is next. Yep. I don't think there's much argument there. Number three. That's a really good question. You know, we were just talking about him. I think, I don't know if I'm getting confused with best and most important and valuable and all that, but most important. Yeah. Yeah. I'll go zoo. I think I think it's zoo. That big three drop off from Paul George to zoo. It's like, you know, not ideal, but yeah, I feel like the margin and the difference in the separation between like a lot of these guys is not huge. And so you could say Powell or Batum or man, or I guess those would probably be the guys I would throw in this in this tier here, but I don't think like anything is crazy or outlandish. But I think I'll go with based on just everything I already said about him. Yeah, no argument here. I think it's, to me, it's clearly zoo, especially when you think about how much he raises the defensive floor of this team. This team is going to be a defensive team. I've always thought James Harden has always needed a good defensive center behind him as a poor defender who lets people, you know, for lack of a better work term, you know, in terms of blow by him very often. Luca Donchich is in the same camp. And the Mavericks knew that they very much funnel people towards a guy like Lively who would just kind of stay and protect the paint. So, Zoo is going to be important and he's going to be important for their defensive. He's definitely going to be important for their defensive back blow. And I don't even want to think about if Zoo gets hurt, the Mo Bamba issue, it's going to be pretty rough. So let's go next. I'll go next. Terence is my next guy up. Terence is not signed his contract extension. You know, Zoo and him are kind of been contract eligible at the same time. I always thought Zoo would go first. Terence is in a bit of a prove it year to degree and he is going to likely start. He is not going to be guarding point of attack quite like he was last year, which I think he kind of showed that he is more of a defensive wing with how he guarded Luca. And I think he's going to be slotted in that area. And that's going to also give him hopefully more energy to be a little bit more dynamic offensively. You know, Michael, you mentioned some interesting things earlier. The Clippers went through a very brief experiment with Terence Mann as the starter before Paul George went in public and cried for Russell Westbrook, because I don't know why. So you know, Terence Mann has had the the and in the G League, even when Terence was in the G League, they played him at point guard and he was he was like dropping triple doubles almost in the summer league when he started off. He's had a little bit of that on ball stuff. But every time we've seen it in on the NBA level, it's kind of not quite been there. So now he has James Harden. He's not going to be an on ball guy. He's not going to be guarding point of attack anymore as much. Derek Jones Jr. is going to take a lot of that stuff. Chris Dodd is going to take a lot of that stuff. He's going to be able to be a little bit more like save his legs in the front court as far as like, you know, using a lot of energy there. This is Terence's year. Like if Terence has more than what he's shown us, he needs to show it now. There's a big offensive void. He has shown us a little bit of flashes of his ability on ball, getting to a mid range game a little bit. He's a dynamic player. He's one of the best on a pick and roll finishers of the Clippers have because he's one of the best rim finishers the Clippers have. He's been consistently pretty consistently for his career and above one point per possession type of guy as a roller even. And the Clippers should probably explore that more, especially if they do go small ball a little bit more here with no real viable backup vibe. This is his year. You know, Terence can't start slow this year. He starts slow every year. He shoots like in the 20s every November from three. He can't do that this year. Like if he does that, the Clippers might be, you know, five and 10. So this is his year. He's the fourth most important clipper to me as far as his ability on both ends. And I really hope he acts like it. And he like embraces the opportunity, works for his contract. I think it's probably a big reason why the Clippers are like, you know, we're not going to give you that extension just yet. He's worth good money. I'd say still young, one of the younger Clippers, which as sad as that is, I would imagine that this is an important year for Terence. And I think he's easily, I mean, honestly, personally, I think he's easily the fourth best player on the team, despite the fact that they have some proven guys behind him, but his about his dynamism and his youth and his energy to finish and his ability to run. I think that he really needs to come into his own this year. I think it's going on going to also speak to what the Clippers can be if he does. So Terence is my fourth guy. Yeah. I'll agree with that for sure. Everything that you said, I like his defensive versatility, tenacity. And I like the upside offensively, despite him being, what is he, 27, 28 years old? Yeah, he's not that young, the professor to call him young. He's not. Yeah, it's not so much that it's just the, I think, just the role that he has been forced to, first of all, he's been like, he's jumped over his role has constantly been in flux throughout his time there, which I know has frustrated him. So I think that a clearly defined role, obviously with a higher usage and the ball in his hands more, more shots. He's going to be someone who really benefits in that department with Paul George leaving. He's going to, he might see the biggest jump, I think, from last year's team to this team this year, besides harden in shots per game. And that might be a good thing. His three point shooting, non-corner, two years ago was excellent. Last year was terrible. That needs to kind of even out and he needs to be a respectable shooter above the break. Just shoot. Just shoot. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. If he can catch the ball and have the defender think that he's going to shoot, even that will be an improvement like it by the end of the season. I don't think teams expect him to shoot. They still, they still kind of don't. And he often doesn't take open shots, which is the biggest frustrating thing I think clipper fans have with Terrence. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. I think that, you know, really good finisher on the rim. And he's got that like, I also think like just the subtraction of Westbrook, we talked a lot about the subtraction of Paul George. I feel like the subtraction of Westbrook is really positive in a lot of ways for a lot of players. Yeah. And he is someone obviously who needed the ball, who dominated the tenor of the game when he was in it. And I think that someone like Terrence Mann will have like, as a better player, will relish in an opportunity to assume those same responsibilities that Westbrook kind of took last year. And so like all the possessions that were either a sloppy turnover or a ridiculous shot, kind of go out the window now and it's a competent normal basketball player doing it. So I think that that's like a really positive thing for him and for the team as a whole and should not be overlooked. Shout out to you early adapter of is a mere coffee more valuable in the rotation than Russell Westbrook when before Amir had his stretch last year. And we were like, man, how like, why are we putting rest in this top 10? And anyways, shout out, Russ. Good luck, bro. Let's see. Okay. So for Terrence, who's who's your five in the rotation? This is just the I got I'm going but to him. What am I? I don't care. I agree with you. I just love him so much. I appreciate everything he does to win basketball games. I love his sacrifice. I obviously love his defense. And I think he'll be he's just like a linchpin on both ends in so many ways. And statistics do not come close to telling the story of what he does every game, every possession. He's just kind of invaluable. And I think that if they can if he can stay healthy and give good minutes, it just raises the ceiling of everything. And I feel like one of my my big personal frustrations with Tai Lu, who I think is one of the best three coaches in basketball has been or was the weird way he played the tomb or how he saw the tomb in his rotation. I just think he's now forced to play him. Hopefully, more than he did previously. And so that's going to be interesting to see too. Because I just think that but whom can do a little bit of everything and he's so important and valuable next to superstars. He's really he's going to be really good next to heart and obviously and has been really good next to clay. Yeah, I would agree with that. Niko Batum, one of my favorite clippers ever, just does everything. I'm curious how they'll defend when Niko's in the game. He's been such a versatile wing and up wing and like up meaning a point guard even he's been so good at defending guards and and wings. And I wonder how much he's got left in his body to guard bigger players. He's capable of doing it. But I think the Clippers even utilize him guarding point of attack a lot guarding superstar wings a lot. How they'll utilize him how mobamba's productivity like will push Niko into guarding centers. Maybe just going small off the bench, you know, because bomba just can't be trusted just yet. Maybe he'll he'll change that Kai Jones absolutely cannot be trusted. But we'll see we'll see how the Clippers kind of utilize him because he's a big body and they don't have big bodies. But funny enough, he's been defensively more of a guy that's been guarding the Olympics. He was guarding staff, you know, he's been so good at point of attack. He did plenty of it on Jalen Brunson and the playoff. So I'm curious how he's going to be deployed defensively and how that'll save his legs a bit. He's such a it was really underrated when the Clippers lost Niko Batum. How much choir Leonard had up his versatility defensively because Niko was gone. The Clippers is he Niko Batum has in my eyes probably inarguably been the best defensive wing the Clippers have had in the two and three era because he's defended across the board and his assignments have been so hard. George has been vocal about taking some time off and not being able to guard whoever, you know, he didn't want to guard Luca Donchich. Luca was foul baiting him into fouls and the playoffs. Kawhi has been often a helper in the corner, who's just so cerebral defensively. But when Niko was in there, he wasn't taking hard assignments unless he really, really had to and the Clippers were going to get eliminated, you know, if he didn't, you know, Niko was taking all those assignments. He would guard Yokech. He would guard him Bead. He would guard. He guarded Ingram in the play and game. He would take all these assignments. He was such a great defender and he still is. He still was for the Sixers and I anticipate he still will be. So I'm curious to see how he'll be defensively and it feels how his legs worried always worried one year that Niko is just not going to be the same. But I saw enough last year and in the Olympics, I think he's still going to be good. Okay, that's Niko. I think six, you know, I think the clear choice probably would be Norm. Yep. As much as we've talked about norms and abilities, you know, on ball stop, he's always been like a one-to-one assistant turnover guy for his career. He's not an, he's not somebody that's going to run pick and rolls, but he is somebody that's going to come off double screens, catch and go. Underrated athleticism can dunk at the rim still. We'll shoot a contested shot and the Clippers just don't have many of those guys. So he's a scorer with a capital S and the Clippers have maybe a couple of them after like a side from him. So he's still invaluable. The Clippers best lineup last year had Norm in it instead of Terrence with the other big four, which was, you know, George, Kawhi, Hardin and Zoo. So I anticipate he'll be important. I also anticipate I'll be putting him into the trade machine all year. So that's my feeling on Norm. I know that last time we had you on, I know you've been positive about Norm, but we know his kind of, how important do you think Norm is for this team? I know we're sliding him six or whatever, but that's necessarily mean that, you know, he doesn't feel like a real boy. Is he a starter? That's a really good question. Is he a starter? I probably not know. I don't think so. I would, yeah, no, I would probably keep his role what it was last year. And I think he's, you know, proven to be one of the better, you know, scoring six men in basketball and has appeared on six men of the year ballots for good reason. Yeah, I think that a lot of what he does is super valuable in today's league, just a really effective, accurate, feared outside shooter. And the issues are his consistency when he gets run off the line. I think he's pretty good, but could be better in terms of just vision and decision making, obviously. But yeah, I like Norm Powell a lot. I like how comfortable I think he's Kawiliner's best friend on the team. I like how comfortable Kawai is with him on the court and off. And you know, keeping Kawai happy. That's like a just an intrinsic value that can't be qualified. So there's that part of it too. But yeah, I like Norm Powell. I do think that he might be a little bit better of a defender or has the ability to be a better defender. Um, he reminds me in a lot of ways. Well, first of all, he was like a pretty solid defender when he was on the Toronto Raptors. But he reminds me in a lot of ways of Eric Gordon, in terms of like body type and low center of gravity and just like being, what's he like six four, but can be stout if he gets low and you can't really move him. The lateral quickness and the length just like isn't, you know, where you would like it to be necessarily. But I think he can be a solid defender and, um, on a team where that's just going to be like breached. Uh, I think he'll be okay. Yeah, that's, that's very interesting. The Clippers actually had the rotational decision between Gordon and Norm Powell not that long ago when, when Gordon was trained to the Clippers. And I think that, I think that tie even ended a lot of games with Gordon because his ability to kind of maybe be switched one through four versus Norm being pushed around a little bit more on those switches. But that's a, I think Norm has more, and we, we all know about his wingspan. Um, and hopefully he kind of steps up a bit more defensively. And it's not a reason we take him off the floor. Um, okay. Up next would be seventh. Let's see. Who, who, uh, this is kind of the end of the rotation here. Um, who, who would you go with, with seven? I think you've got to go Derek Jones Jr. Yeah. Um, I mean, he's like they're big off season signing. Yeah. And you know, watching a lot of Dallas after the trade deadline, he was really good. Um, watching him in the playoffs up until the finals, he was like, you know, there were features being written about him. Like he was, uh, like a breakout story. Um, and I do think that, you know, I like him defensively. I think that he's not, you know, um, one of the best defensive wings in basketball, but I think he can hold his own. Excuse me. I think he can guard multiple positions. Um, I, I'm just interested to see kind of what his role is on offense and how, how, how, uh, how broad it is and what he's asked to do and able to do kind of, um, playing off of harden, um, whether hardens in the pick and roll or isolating or, or whatever. Um, and also what he's able to do when, and this kind of applies to a lot of players on the team, to be honest, but like what he's doing when harden is not on the court and he's on the court. What are we going to see from him? What does he work? What has he been working on this summer? Like has he just been working on spot up corner threes? Like is there, um, any improved ball handling that we might see from him? Uh, the, you know, Randy Moss of his game in transition, I think is really important too. And I would, I think one thing to keep in mind with this team or to, to watch out for is, uh, the potential for, I know Jeff and Gunny is their defensive coordinator and, you know, he comes from Boston last year. Um, and he comes from a general, generally a very, uh, conservative defensive philosophy, but I'm interested to see like the potential for an aggressive attack dog mentality with this team defensively and, um, one that is not necessarily Feaster famine in terms of turning turnovers and turning that into, to opportunities in the offensive end, but having someone like Derek Jones Jr. out there who can be really effective in the open floor, I think is a variable and, um, a plus for him, um, in this context, if that makes any sense. Yeah, yeah. Uh, I'm excited to see him in transition. The Clippers have not had many transition players really. Um, so having him on that end will be fine. Uh, I'm really curious just to see how he plays on offense, even with Hardin. And you know, that pet play that, that, uh, Hardin has with Westbrook in the corner and a screen and, and the little backdoor cut. Uh, that's very much a Derek Jones, you know, in his playbook, he's such a vertical threat. The Clippers don't have many vertical threats, guys, I can dunk even funny enough as it is to say. Uh, I am, uh, very intrigued by him, um, for sure. And I think he's going to be, I think he's a great defender. I'm excited to see him defend. Uh, I was excited to see him guard even the Clippers last playoffs. I, I thought that he was a big key to that, that series even before it started. Uh, we'll be wrapping up with a couple more Kristin. I'm a Kristin guy. Is my next guy. Um, I'm a big, I follow Kristin. I mean, I've been a fan of his, his, even when he was drafted, but he was at why Coli had to take Clipper years ago. And I wanted them to bring him up to an early two and three because of all the reasons that he is, he's just a very sturdy ball handler really protects the ball really well. I think he's an underrated offensive player just because he knows in the next plays, almost anti Westbrook, where he knows where his shots should not be. He takes open threes when he, when he has them. Um, he, he's one of the more effective, you know, paint and kick kind of players coming off the bench. Uh, Utah was great for a reason when he started last year. And as soon as they wanted to lose games, they thought we better play tail and horror Tucker. Um, like he is just a, a really heady player. And I'm excited to see what he's got. Now he, he might be punching up a little bit in this rotation, considering where he's been historically last few years. But, uh, I think, I think done, um, has incentive to play really well. You know, he's really earned this contract and he's got incentives in his deal to, to make all defensive team. Um, whether that he'll get the minutes to get there, like you mentioned, like he wasn't able to get with the Utah Jazz will be another thing, but I'm a big, I'm a big Christian guy. People who follow this pod know that and, uh, he's going to get opportunities for sure. Uh, yeah, I'm excited for done season. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, quick, dumb story, but when he was on the Chicago Bulls, they were in Brooklyn one night and I was writing a story about him because I thought that he was like, the story was basically that he's the best on ball defender in basketball. And at the time it was like a fair statement to make. He was just an absolute menace. And so, you know, I talked to him pregame, like he's, I just remember being like a wonderful interview. And, um, he goes out and injures his knee that night. Is that the fall game? Oh my God. You were, you were, you were close for that game. And we have in Brooklyn. It was like maybe an hour after we talked. So my piece, you know, I think we ran it eventually in some capacity, but obviously the air was taken out of the sales there. And so I've been a huge fan of him as well. And it was really cool to see kind of his offensive game have, uh, like oxygen last year in Utah the last two years when he first joined them two seasons ago. But I think that, you know, as a backup point guard, he's certainly an upgrade over Russell Westbrook and, um, very different in the ways that you said, but very predictable in positive ways. And predictable is a nice word for him. Like, yeah, I feel like you're not going to have the chaos that Russ had, you know, right? And I think that that's a good thing. And, you know, a lot of the focus is on his defense. And that's going to be an awesome part of what he brings to the table. But as someone who can get to the rim a little bit and is has finished at the basket, has a little bit of a floater to him that's, that's been successful the past couple of years and is, you know, has not shaken the can't hit threes reputation yet, but has at least in a Utah jazz uniform wasn't terrible. So we'll see, you know, we'll see kind of, um, how accurate he is from downtown, um, when afforded wide open looks by superstars. So that'll be interesting to see. I'm a huge fan of his game, a huge fan of Chris done. Awesome. I love that story. Last couple of guys. Uh, who's who's next up for you? I think we're at nine and 10. We might as well just do nine and 10 together. Um, I'm going to go with a beer coffee, just a solid rotation wing. Um, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And this is part of the barrel stuff. Yeah, this is tough. I, I want to just say PJ Tucker. Oh, no. I mean, it's like PJ. I don't know what, like, what is Kobe Brown's game? Like, is it? Yeah, it's a good question. Like what is, I know that they, they like tried for a second to make him like the small ball five. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think what is Kobe Brown's game is a question that the Clippers are asking themselves right now. Um, yeah. He's good. You know, I think Kobe Brown is my 10th guy. Okay. I think Kobe's going to get an opportunity early on as the backup board just because the Clippers have nobody else. Um, he is an older second year player who I think needs to kind of earn his keep a little bit. They really need to see what they have with him early on. They did trial him out last year, pretty early in the season to midling results. In the summer league, they put him on ball. They essentially made him point guard a lot of the end of the summer league. He did quite well. The problem is he's not going to have that opportunity with a James Harden led team or even Chris Dunlet team. Uh, because he's, you know, six, six and over a kind of over, you know, kind of a bigger guy, but not quite has the length for a four doesn't quite have the mobility to defend up and switch on smaller guys. Uh, he's, he's a big guy. He's he's comfortable in what he does. I think the issue is just like for so many players is he's going to be put in a corner a lot and be expected to make some threes and, uh, and play some good team defense. His, I think his most important role right now, he's a really good hub type of guy. I think he's a smart passer. That's his biggest NBA skill that pops out to me is he's a really good passer for somebody that big. That's why they played him at point guard and had him initiating in a lot of summer league action. Uh, but I'm curious if they're able to put Mo Bomba as a spacer and have a lot of, uh, him rolling and making decisions, decisions on the short roll. That's hard, you know, for him to always be in that position. Otherwise he's going to be able to pick and pop. He's going to be able to be able to make those threes, corner threes, and he's just been a 33% type of guy. Even in the G league, he was like 33% in the G league on, on higher volume. He's had one season, his last season in college where he shot above 35% from deep. Can he shoot threes? Will people, will teams respect him out there? Cause you can't have him in every action on, on ball, you know, cause I think if he was involved on ball as a roller, we'd see a lot of positive things from him, but we can't always do that. And teams will also not respect him as a scorer and they will just kind of give, dare him to shoot from that middle game. So he's not really a finisher at his size. Uh, if you show a little bit of resistance at the rim, it'll be hard for him to finish. He's really good. It's a shame. You know, he's one of these guys that's caught in that purgatory of being in a tweener type and not quite having the feet to move defensively and not quite having, you know, the offensive gravity to be a guy on the other end, but he's a really good passer. Um, he tries on defense. He just has lead feet. Um, it's hard to blame him for that sort of thing. He has a good motor and I think he's going to get a chance. So he's my 10th guy, uh, over guys like, uh, like PJ who I think is a little bit of an afterthought and it's going to get traded mid season, if not stretched, but probably traded mid season and, uh, and Kevin Porter Jr, who has to earn everything. He just has to earn it. Uh, I don't mean, I barely even want to mention his name, but, uh, clearly a talented guy, but not only bad off the court, but is bad on the court as far as just being a good teammate. So we'll see if he earns his keep it all. Um, but those are kind of my guys and Mo Bomba, we, we've talked about a bit too. So I think, I think that wraps up my 10. I'm interested in Colby. We'll see. Good 10. Yeah, it could be worse. It's the LA Clippers could be worse. I will say real quick, like the, I feel like the Intuit Dome is this like weapon almost, you know, like, I feel like it's a big difference. Just obviously having, you know, your own arena for a variety of reasons is a plus, but the, um, schedule and when they play games and all that, like, that's real. That's a real impact on these players who are such creatures of habit. You know, the Clippers having to play these matinees, um, not fun for anyone. So those being completely eliminated from the schedule, I think, is like low key important in the regular season. I agree with that. No matinee games. They have their share back to backs, but I'm not going to cry about that anymore. Uh, yeah, I think that's just loud in that arena. I'm so excited to go to games there just to feel it. It's built to be loud. It's built for basketball. So I am excited for that. Michael, thank you for coming on. As always, I want you to give you a little bit of a runway. Talk about your work. I know you have a step article that you just put out there. Uh, where can we find you? Who is Michael Pino? Let us know. Yeah, just, you know, the ringer.com go there. A lot of wonderful stuff written by people who are a lot smarter than I am. Um, I did just write a story about the Golden State Warriors and Steph Curry, kind of a reaction to, uh, the one year extension that he just signed, which was kind of interesting, I guess. And kind of where that organization is, which is, um, like I can't, if you read the piece, I struggle to decide if I'm super optimistic about where they are and what they have and, um, or if it's just going to be kind of a slog over the next couple of years. So we'll see. Yeah, that's Michael. Thank you guys for listening. Of course, leaves a nice five-star review, whatever platform this is on, five starts, five starts really helps. So nice word too. We'll leave them on the air. And as always, go Clipper. You