I was very controlling, that's how I, you know, stumbled into all this work was like fish are always the last to know they're in the ocean and I was the last to realize like I'm not controlling. I'm just like, I'm helping. I'm just helping him, you know, dress better and be more ambitious and I eat healthier, of course, you know, because come on. And what I didn't realize is that helpful in my language is critical in husband language. And people don't respond well to the list of the top 10 things I hate about you and you're incompetent. There's really nothing worse I could say to my husband than, you know, you don't know what you're doing. Are you curious about discovering ways of making your life better? Then welcome to my podcast. I'm Bob Nickman and this is The Exploding Human. Listen in, while I talk with all kinds of people in the fields of personal growth, health and healing, alternative therapies, psychology, spirituality, environment, and the future. I'm looking for those answers that make life better for everyone. You'll meet cutting edge practitioners, doctors, artists, film makers, business people. And those who have overcome challenges. The brave, curious, anyone who's out there helping us humans to explore, expand, and explode. Welcome to The Exploding Human. My name is Bob Nickman. My guest today is relationship expert Laura Doyle and we're going to be talking about marriage and her mission to end divorce. But first I'd like to invite you to visit my website, theexplodinghuman.com. Over there you can listen to episodes, read synopsies, see photos of my guests, little bio on myself. And there is also a YouTube channel where you can listen, which is The Exploding Human with Bob Nickman. As I said, my guest today is Laura Doyle. She found herself many years ago in a marriage that was not working. And she was very close to getting divorced. So out of desperation, she went to a wide variety of women who were in successful marriages and asked them a lot of questions about what made their marriage work. Which set her on a journey and a mission to end divorce and change her attitudes and her perceptions and her knowledge about her own marriage. And then she began to teach other people what she had learned, which was not what was being told to her in marriage counseling. She offers her own personal story as well as some of the stories of her clients. And I was happy to learn some of the specific techniques that she has learned and passed on to other people. And she got a lot of very practical methods that she employs in helping women to navigate their marriages. It was a really fun discussion and we had a lot of laughs doing it. And boy, this is such a great topic because everybody wants to have a great relationship, I think. I mean, I do. Please enjoy our talk. This is Laura Doyle. I'm so glad that you're here this morning and we had a nice little pre-discussion about relationships. There are some laughs and we're going to keep that going, I hope. I'm sure we will. Yeah, and you've been dealing with, I guess I was reading in your one sheet that your goal is to have less divorce in the world and happier relationships. Not a bad goal at all. And I think we all want that. Don't we want to have a great relationship? Don't we all want that? I think everybody wants to feel known and seen and heard and understood for sure. I know I do and lots of my students do and I think the tragic thing is that we aren't really top the skills that are going to contribute to that. There was no relationships 101 at my schools. I don't know if there was at yours, but I'm not sure we're supposed to learn that. I think the only way people learn relationships is modeling what their parents did. They didn't have any training either. We're fortunate enough to have parents with a healthy relationship, which probably almost no one has. Or just certainly generationally, it doesn't quite translate. But you do find that people that come from homes that have healthier relationships probably do a little better for the most part unless they get some personal growth things going on for themselves. Yeah, I mean, I know for me, my parents are divorced. When I got married, I do think I was doing exactly what I saw them do. And I was headed for the same results. Yeah, so your point is well taken that's the only model we usually get to see is our parents. And if they don't have a great relationship and they don't have those skills to pass on to us. To me, it's like anything else, right? If your parents know how to cook and they show you how to use a knife and a stove and make an omelet or whatever, then you end up with that skill. And if they don't, it's funny. I mean, I learned differential equations in high school, and I don't use those very often at all. But I think everyone's going to have a relationship, right? So to me, it's like the most worthwhile thing you can possibly learn. And I think one of the things that was really frustrating is I went on my own little journey with relationships was finding out that so much of what's recommended by experts is actually terrible. You're productive counterproductive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, because I, you know, because there was, you know, just a few years into, you know, I was madly in love with my husband when I married him. And then, but, you know, a few years later, we were having a lot of cold wars where there was no talking for days and it was very tense or, or we'd have just big blow ups. Usually a lot of them in the car, for some reason, they were, I guess, because he couldn't get away. So we were having those fights in the car. And I remember thinking, like, well, I know what to do. You have to go to marriage counseling. If you can't even have a conversation without having a fight, then definitely you have to, you have to drag him to marriage counseling. And this is my view on it at the time, like, I'm going to take him to marriage counseling. The counselor's going to tell him everything he's doing wrong. And so he can fix it. And then I can finally be happy and have this beautiful marriage that I wanted. I really wanted that so bad. And, and so, of course, that didn't work as you already know, right? I dragged him. And I remember we went to marriage counseling for over a year. We spent over $9,000, a long time ago, decades ago, and so be more money now in today's dollars. But I remember I was on the counselor's gray couch when I realized he's never going to change. And I'm either going to spend the rest of my life in a loveless marriage, or I have to get divorced. And so I seemed like, you know, the reasonable solution was to just go ahead and end my marriage and try to find somebody better next time. So I decided I was going to get divorced. And there was just one problem, and that is that I was too embarrassed to get divorced. I felt like people had been to the wedding just not that many years before. So I thought, as a last ditch effort, I was going to, I was a journalism major in college. So I thought, I'm going to interview women with happy marriages that have been married for what seemed like an eternity to me, which was 15 years. They're happy and they've been married at least that long. I'm going to ask them what their secrets are. And so I started doing that, and I remember they would say things that sounded crazy to me. I was like, what? That is like, and I had read all the marriage books and stuff. And they were saying things that was nothing like what I would read in the marriage books, or I'd learned it counseling. And, you know, I'm a woman said, oh, I try never to criticize my husband, no matter how much it seems like he deserves it. And I was like, have you got anything else, you know, like that? I'm not going to be able to do that. And that's, you know, why would I even do that? So, but I had nothing to lose. I thought, I'm just going to experiment in my marriage with all the things that they're telling me. And if it worked, I kept it. If it didn't, I threw it out. So I did this whole trial and everything for a while. And I remember it was not even that long that I'd been doing these things. And I walked through the door, and my husband's face lit up. He was happy to see me again. I know. So I thought, this is working because that had been gone. And so I thought, well, this is great. Now I know what to do, and we're going to stop having those fights, and I'm finally going to get the marriage that I want. The marriage I have now. But there was a problem because a few days later, we're in the car, and we had a big fight again, huge, horrible fight. I was saying things I knew. I was going to regret. He was saying mean, terrible things right back. And I thought, this is awful because I know what to do. But I couldn't get myself to do it. So I had this idea. I thought, well, if I, I'm going to get some of my girlfriends that are complaining about their marriages, I'm going to get them to do this with me. And I started this little support group in my living room. And it was interesting because we started seeing miracles. Like, I would say, hey, try this or do that. And one woman came and said, my husband went to sales contest at work. He took me on the most romantic getaway of our lives. And another one said, well, this isn't going to seem like much to you guys, but we've been fighting for months about painting the family room. And he got up and painted the family room. We did it with a smile. This is a miracle. So we knew we were on to something. And one of them said, can you write down what we're doing for my cousin in Florida? And we were in California having our little meetings. And I said, sure, I'll do it. And I wrote it down. And that became my first book, which went on to be a New York Times bestseller. It was published in 19 languages in 30 countries. And I was on Dateline. And there were documentaries made about it. And when Dateline aired the investigative piece about it, it went to number one on Amazon. And it started an accidental worldwide movement of women who practice the six intimacy skills that lead to playful, passionate marriages. I love that. What's the title of that book? I could tell you Bob, but then I'd have to kill you. OK. You don't want me to get it. Well, all right, I'll tell it to you. It's controversial. You'll see why I don't want to tell you. Oh, OK. But it's a wonderful book, actually. It's a misunderstood book. And I'll explain the title. So it's called the surrendered wife. Surrender wife. Yeah. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to advocate for surrender, not just with wives, but with all human beings when they can't change something, it is good to surrender and accept the thing that is. Absolutely. So this is saying, be bound, or any of that stuff. That's what you're talking about. You're saying, you're saying, surrender to what is. Don't be in denial of a reality that you can't change. Exactly. So like, like if you're stuck in traffic, right? You might wish the traffic would move, but you can't make it move. But you could decide like, well, I'm going to use this time to listen to a podcast or music I love or talk on the phone. That's surrendering, right? And a surrender wife just knows she can't tell her husband what to do. She can't tell him how to drive or what to wear or what to do at work. But she can focus on her own happiness. And that in turn improves the intimacy. So anyway, yeah, I wrote down what I learned at that time. So this was over 20 years ago now. Yeah. So, and then what I did through the years, I keep continually trying to refine the steps so that I can better communicate what I've learned, right? So now at that time, you know, I was a pretty new student of the six intimacy skills myself. So now my newest book is The Empowered Wife that really spells out the six intimacy skills very thoroughly. We just did an updated and expanded version because about a decade ago, I also started a coaching organization. And where these, I have about 150 coaches who are experts on these skills, and they help empower women to use them in their marriages. And so I learned a lot from, from that process. And, and so I wanted to, I wanted to write that down too. I wanted to get that into the hands of his many women as it possibly could. Because as you said, I'm on a mission to end world divorce. You've picked women to help. And I'm assuming that there's men that have are trying to help men because we're kind of thick in some areas. And, but we're, we're stuck with what you, you are teaching. Now, let me just, I'm going to just be totally me. Okay. You know, that book matter from Mars, women are from Mars. I'm a fan of that book. Yeah. I love John Gray. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a huge, a huge thing. You know, this disconnect that we have by biological wiring and societal wiring. And we're very apart on a lot of things, things we just don't understand about each other. Now you said something really, I want to just tell you something that my wife says, I'll say like, I'm going to give you some of the, you know, the stuff that isn't so great sometimes. Not major, but this is like she'll say, I'll say, you know, I would prefer if you didn't speak that way to me. And she'll say, you deserve it, because you said something about deserve it. And I would say, who were you to decide what another person deserves? So true. That's one of our discussions and want to hear the funny. This is the funniest one ever. Now, we have a, both of us, I come from a stand up comedy career. That's where I began everything was with music and then stand up and then writing. So this is like a whole different thing for me in the last few years. So I have a, you know, I humor is big. My wife likes humor. So even when we're upset, that has been a real savior for moments. And I have to say that I don't know if that's one of your intimacy skills, but I think it's a valuable skill either way. So this is my favorite moment that we ever had probably left. We laughed so hard, but up till that moment, no. So she was on one of those tears of giving me a list of all my faults. She was having a terrible day. I didn't really know it. So she started. This is making me laugh just thinking about it. She goes, you're this, you're this, you're this, you know, one of these things I go. And then the last one was, you must really hate yourself. And I said, and I said, I don't. I really like myself. She goes, well, I hate you. And we both started laughing so hard because it was like, how could you not hate yourself when I do it? I've just given you a list. It was one of the funniest. We laugh so hard. I've told that to, you know, couples and friends. I just, you know, I mean, she realized that she had gone down a path that was not making any sense at all. It was a little indefensible. Yeah, that was totally indefensible. It was completely irrational. So what I tell, you know, guys that talked to me about their, their partners, I go, don't listen to the words. They don't mean anything. It's just a motion pouring out. She's not going to remember anything. She said, don't even don't pay attention to the words. And as my buddy goes, women are self cleaning ovens. Let them, let them spin and run through their cycle and they'll be, they'll be okay. That's like just a difference that I've noticed. I don't know if, you know, I can't say all women are the same, but I noticed that. Oh, yeah, it's interesting because I, so my, along those lines, my campus, we only serve women. So what we do is we help women fix their relationships without their husband's conscious effort, even if it seems completely hopeless so that they can feel desired and cherished and adored, which is, I was a big goal of mine, you know, in my marriage early on. Yeah. And so people say, well, what about couples? What about men? You know, of course, he's responsible for the relationship too. And, you know, it's, it's been my experience that, and that, you know, this is controversial too, but women are the keepers of the relationship. We get, we have so much power to set the culture in the home. And so you're nodding your head, which is, I appreciate that. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think, I think people do get upset with the, you know, with gender stereotypes, which is understandable. So I like to think of it as like even just yin and yang. Right. And in Eastern philosophy, they talk about how every object has yin, the feminine and yang, the masculine. Like even like a coffee cup, right? So my coffee cup, the structure, the ceramic part with the polka dots here, that's the yang, that's the masculine part. And the part where you can put the coffee, that's the yin. And without the yin, the yang would have no purpose. If this cup, if I couldn't put coffee in it, it would have no purpose. And so I think a lot of times we unwittingly block our man's desire to delight us, to give us gifts and compliments and help and special treatment. And so if you aren't very good at receiving all that, then what can he do? How can he delight you? And I mean, I love your story of using humor. And that's kind of another thing that, you know, if your wife was willing to receive that, you know, to have her funny bone tickled in that moment when she was listing all the 10 things I hate about you. And you were saying, no, I don't hate myself. She's willing to start laughing. And I give her all the credit for that, in a way, because that's very, I call it girl of fun and like, right, we all have his inner girl of, you know, it's like Cindy Loper wrote in her very profound anthem that girls just want to have fun. And I'm calling your wife a girl and all the rest of us too, even though we're well over 12, because I think we all have that inner just want to have fun girl. And I think sometimes she gets lost in the, you know, in the rush of raising kids and paying mortgages and going to work and doing the housework. We forget, we're kind of focused on everybody else and forget to tend to our own fun. So that's kind of, that's a big part of, you know, the first indispensable step to having a great relationship actually is to make yourself happy and have a great time. And maybe just laugh and laugh and laugh about all the things you hate about your husband even. Yeah, I don't know how people with out of sense of humor, you have any relationship whatsoever, romantic or other. I can't even be around it, but yeah, but there are people like that. They walk around very serious all day long. Good luck. Yeah. So let's go through the six steps there that you were talking about. Can we do that? Yeah, we can. We can. Absolutely. So we, and we just kind of, well, only, you know, well, I'll only be able to kind of touch on all of them. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Like, you know, I always think, you know, my husband says, yeah, the word water doesn't quench your thirst. So I really want everyone to get these skills and I'm going to give as much as of them as I can on this show. And then they'll be like, well, now, now what I do, right? So, so there's so much more to it, but I want to just give like a, at least an overview of everything. And then we just kind of touched on the first one, which is so when women arrive on the campus, the first thing we ask them to do is make a list of 20 things that bring them joy, like just frivolous fun, just not to, you know, be healthier or reduce greenhouse gas emissions or save money. None of that. It's just like whatever just makes, puts a slick grin on your face. I mean, and people, it's funny because when women first arrive, a lot of times they're like, well, they want to skip that chapter in the book, like, okay, yeah, yeah, let's get to the part where I can get my husband to do the things that I want him to do, right? And it's like, no, believe me, this really is the thing. This is what's going to make you an irresistible magnet. And it's also going to resolve so much of the conflict at your house because I've interviewed thousands of men and asked them this one question. In fact, I'm going to ask you, Bob, if you don't mind, I'm going to put you on the spot, but they all give the same answer, actually. But anyway, let's test it out with you. How important is it to you that your wife is happy? Very. Okay. That's what every single man I've ever asked says. Sometimes they say, like, it's the most important thing. Sometimes they say it's everything, or they say it's very important. In the UK, they say it's imperative, right? So it's all over the world. This is the thing. And so if when I was unhappy in my marriage, I had this little delusion that, like, well, if he sees how miserable I am, he's then that's going to motivate him to shape up and be better somehow, right? That never worked. But when I started making myself happy, he wanted to pile on, like, and he wanted to be around me. That was when, you know, I didn't need to say, hey, why don't you spend more time with me because he was seeing me out. He was like, oh, look at her. She's dancing in the kitchen. I'm going to go check that out. Let's find out what that's about. So this just makes a huge difference to make yourself happy. And I had a student actually who decided she was going to use this six and missing skills to try to fix her marriage. She thought it was pretty hopeless because her husband was never around. It was lying to her and flirting with some co-workers, female co-workers. And they had five kids, and he said, God, I wish we just never even had any kids. And he told her she was a terrible mother. And so she thought, well, this is probably pretty hopeless. But she decided she was going to do this self-care thing. So she did. She made her list of things that she loved to do. And she started doing that. You know, I'm already winning because whether my marriage gets better or not, I'm happy. I'm feeling good. And she stopped kind of waiting around for him to announce his plans. She'd been feeling like a statue, right, when that was happening. So anyway, so she's making herself happy. And she's listening to this podcast she loves and she's folding the laundry. And her husband comes over to her and he's like trying to have a conversation with her. And she's like a little annoyed. She's like, I'm listening to my podcast, right? She's like, but then she thought, no, I've always wanted him to do this. And now it's finally, it's finally happening. Like he's seeking out my company. And then she heard him. She overheard him talking to their oldest son. And she said, they were talking like friends. And she's like, I couldn't believe it, but it just really warmed my heart. And then she heard him talking that way with all the kids. And she realized like, no, something really is happening in this marriage. And she'd been unhappy for like 19 of their 20 years together. So she was amazed that like, and that was just that one, just that one skill, right? Of the, you know, kind of like one piece of the six intimacy skills. So she got a big transformation out of just doing that. Yeah, my wife does that. She's figured that one out. Don't wait around for me to do this thing that you're not even saying out loud that you just wanted me to do. You know, she buys herself flowers because she has better taste than me. She loves flowers. I can't predict when she's going to want them or what colors. I mean, I still do that myself, but she does it too. And that's just one example. Just one example. Yeah, love that. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a, you know, I'm sure it's, there's also this nice exchange that happens. When I know like, for me, like when my husband gets me something, right? So there's getting stuck for myself, and then there's my husband getting something for me. And a lot of times my husband gets me things and it's not what I would have bought for myself exactly, right? And this is like, I've, you know, I'll have a live event and I'll say like, okay, who got a present from their husband? And they thought, Oh my God, why do you get me this? You know, and like, every hand goes up, right? Like, everyone's like, oh, that happened to me. And it's interesting because there's something else that you can receive in that situation for me. Like, and I remember one woman was like, yeah, you got me a pocket knife. Like, why are we giving me a pocket knife? That's ridiculous, you know. And then we talked a little bit about like the, I call it the feminine art of receiving graciously, right? Which is part of what makes you an irresistible magnet. When you're receptive, that's the essence of femininity. That's what men are fundamentally attracted to. And so we're talking about, you know, being able to receive like his thoughtfulness and his desire to, you know, am I have a practical purpose, right? It says something he wants to do to lighten your load or to delight you in some way. And at the end of it, she raised her hand and she goes, you know, I did end up using that pocket knife and it ended up being something I did, I did really love, right? So it can expand your horizons. This is part of what being in a relationship does, right? If you want the perfect gift, you can go down to the mall and buy it for yourself, or you go on Amazon and order it, but doesn't the same as receiving something that's meant for your enjoyment. Yeah, I think it's important to look at intent rather than content necessarily, you know, because if the intent is to make you feel better and good to show affection and thoughtfulness and caring, who cares what the item is, doesn't matter. That's right. I mean, it'd be nice if it was both, but, you know, yeah, and a lot of times, you know, sometimes it will be, but it's interesting because we, I know for me, like I was a terrible receiver early on, like he'd buy me flowers and I would say, oh, you know, these guys, I think this is, we can't really afford this waste of money, you know, and so he stopped. He buys him, he buys him now for me again, and so I got that back, but I really taught him like, you know, don't, I don't, you know, I'm not worth it. Don't get me flowers. And that was just one example of, he would, we'd wake up in the morning and go, oh, you're so beautiful. And go, no, don't look at me. I bet, you know, I bet air or whatever, I couldn't receive the compliments, or even, you know, I love it now, like my husband cares, kills all the scary spiders and he carries the heavy stuff, you know, for me and he, he seems to delight in doing that for me. And, but I had a hard time receiving that early on because I thought that I needed to pull my own weight. And Connie Schultz, I love, you know, she has a quote. She's like, before I let my husband make me a cup of coffee, I had to make sure that it wouldn't cost me the right to vote and own property. Right. I wanted to make sure I still have all that. So I think sometimes we're not the best receivers. When I have given gifts or done something, and it's not received in, in a way that I, you know, want it to be. I feel diminished in some way, like almost emasculated and that's a little bit strong of a word, but it's in this situation, but it's, you, you just want the person to go, Oh, this is great. Thank you. You know, it's just. Thank you for thinking about me. Thank you for thinking of me. Thank you for being so generous. So I love hearing that that it feels, you feel diminished or even emasculated because that's, I think that's something I had no concept of early on in my marriage. And I'm sad when I think about that younger version of myself, like her one time is an embarrassing story. My husband took us on a romantic getaway to Hawaii. And I was so excited on the first day because I thought, oh, we're going to go to the beach. And I cannot wait to go to the beach. And, but instead of saying what I wanted, of course, I said, what do you want to do today? And he said, well, how about if we go see a volcano? And I was like, you know, volcano. All right, but I didn't want to have a conflict. I wanted it to be close. So I said, all right, well, I'll just suck it up. I'll go see your volcano. It's just to myself, right? And maybe, you know, we'll go to the beach some other time, tomorrow or whatever. And so we get in the car and we're driving towards the volcano. I knew there's no volcano for a long time. There's just like little molten rocks on the side of the road. And so I started to think, like, I could have been at the beach right now. You know, this kind of sucks. And he realized he's like, is, is everything okay? I saw a volcano. All right. It's not the kind that, yeah, it was me. I was the volcano. And do you know, even after I behave so badly, like, poor guy, all he knows is like, okay, I took, I took a trip to Hawaii. You know, it's the last thing I remember officer, right? And anyway, after that, he took me to the beach. We never got to see the volcano because it turns out he just wanted me to be happy. And I couldn't enjoy the beach because I had a horrible emotional hangover from raging like that. And I knew that bad behavior expectations. Yeah, I expect to talk about expectations, right? So, but I feel sad for that younger version of myself. It just had no concept of how to express her desires. And if you can't say what you want, you're never going to get what you want. Mind reading is a big issue with people. It's a big problem. And I don't know if women, you know, I was actually talking to this friend of. She was a friend of my wife's, I guess. I don't know. And the coins. And she was having some conflicts with her husband. And I said, you know, you do know that we can't read your mind, right? And for some reason, women think I was just saying this to her because I could tell she was like this, that you think that because we can't read your mind, we don't love you as much as we could. And I go, but you'd realize that we can't read your mind. She goes, well, you know, like, you should be able to. And yes, that's not true. And I go, you're insane. That doesn't make any, I go read, read my mind right now. One of my things. I mean, it's obvious what I'm thinking about the expression on my face, but I'm repulsed by this woman thinking that this woman was chronically dissatisfied. That's how I would describe a very attractive woman, second or third marriage. This one wasn't panning out because she was. She had no idea how to express her desires in a way that inspires. Yeah. That's why such a dissatisfied person. You know, I relate to her sadly, because I remember like one of the conflicts we had early on in my marriage was I would say to him, I go, John, this kitchen is a disaster area. And I thought he was going to like jump off the couch, you know, put down the remote and like come over and clean the kitchen and that just never happened. I have this theory now that like he couldn't even hear. I think men can't even hear it when you're complaining. Maybe no one can hear you when you're complaining. So he could hear John. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that was it. You know, like the Peanuts parents like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then finally, I learned to express my desires. And there's a little formula for this. And I'd love to share it with everyone who's listening. Like, like your wife's of queens. I would love for her to know this to express your desires. So finally, one day, I said, you know what, I would love a clean kitchen. And my husband was like, okay, I'll clean it. I'm like, well, what? And then he did. And that was over 20 years ago. And do you know, he's been doing it ever since I don't ever do the dishes here. Very, very rarely because he knows it makes me happy and he just wants me to be happy. So he does all the dishes. So once I like tapped into that, you know, once you find the motherload of like being able to find the intersection of my, you know, knowing what I want, and his desire to make me happy. It's a very complimentary system. I do the same thing. Oh, you do all the dishes there? Yeah. Yeah, I don't do a fantastic job. You know, I do a good job. Yeah. I don't do, you know, I'm not an eagle. I'm super cleaner. And I sometimes I get, you know, a little talking to about my finance, but not serious. You know, but I clean up every night. So, but here's an interesting thing that you said that I just related to when you said the kitchen is a disaster. My wife uses that word for things that aren't disasters, disasters are, you know, hurricanes and fires and all I hear is hysterical woman. I'm not going to pay attention. It's not a disaster. It's just not the way you want it. So it actually that the choice of words. And don't get me wrong. I think she feels that way. I think inside, you felt that way like you felt overwhelmed with how filthy the kitchen was. And that's the word you picked because it was very upsetting to you on some, some level, maybe as a nester or some issue. But the word disaster is a is a complete turn off for a guy to hear about anything. Well, that makes total sense. And so this is a big part of the disconnect because you're right. I was like really overdramatizing things by saying it was a disaster. Because I thought that that was going to get his attention more, right? And it does just the opposite. Actually, it's kind of repelling. And, you know, and again, the complaining, I think women will think, you know, I know I did. I'm like, he knows how to make me happy. He knows his kitchen is a disaster and therefore he should, you know, he should clean it. And he didn't know because I wasn't expressing that desire. In fact, there was another student who was also using the intimacy skills. Her husband already said he was going to divorce her and there was no hope. And they were living in the same house, but separated like awkward roommates, no talking, no touching, just like lots of layers and layers of wall to wall hostility. So she thought, I'm going to try these intimacy skills, probably won't work, but whatever I'm going to try them. And so she was using this formula for expressing her desires in a way that inspires along with the other skills. And so she goes out into the living room and she says, I would love a leg massage. I would love a leg massage. So, and now she didn't, what she didn't do was say, Oh, my God, my legs hurts so, so much. My legs feel terrible because he wouldn't have known what to do, right? So she said, I love a leg massage. And he goes, would you like it now? And her heart starts racing. She's like, Oh, my God, he's going to give me a leg massage. Like, okay, sit over in this chair. And he gave her a leg massage. I mean, they weren't even talking much less touching. And this was like the beginning of them reconciling. In fact, he shortly after that, he cleared off their whole patio and built a like a fire pit and they were so they could sit outside and hold hands by the fire in the evenings. So she's just blown away by how romantic he became as she learned to express those desires in a way that inspires us, like this beginning of this reconciliation. My wife has an older friend who's in her 80s and she's she was complaining about something of how she spent 30 minutes explaining to me and I still didn't get it really upset. And the lady goes, men are capable of understanding that. She goes, just tell him what you want right in this moment and tell him you love them. If you do those two things, you'll get everything you want. And it worked. And I said, tell that woman. Thank you. It's as simple as it is. I'm cold. Give me a jacket. That's about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. It is. Yeah. And I think it's interesting from the female mind. It is really hard to understand like that giving like my husband gives me his jacket when I'm cold and we're out or something and he's going without a jacket that that actually makes him feel love. Yes. Absolutely. Right. And you're saying yes. And I'm like, my female brain's going, like I'm exploding here because that doesn't, how can that be right? Because I'm getting everything. You're sacrificing everything for me. And yet. And then that feels, I feel wonderful. I feel like the princess. Thank you so much. We like, yeah, we like to be heroes. You want to be heroes, right? So if I can trigger your hero, Jean, you know, if your wife can trigger your hero, Jean, or if I can, I mean, my husband will say like, I didn't get to be at frozen chosen. I didn't get to be at World War II or whatever, but I can give you my jacket. Right? Like that is. That's like a part of the way he's made. Yeah. My wife had another friend who said, tell your husband he's your hero. Oh, yeah. She did. And I couldn't believe it. I was like, yeah. It was such a great feeling. Only happened once, but it was great. Oh, yeah. It is great. It is great. Well, and, you know, I mean, I love that, actually, because, yeah, my husband is my hero. You know, he does so many things every day to lighten my load, to make my life better, to, you know, to, to hear and see and know me. To, you know, listen to my, you know, like, I overdramatize things like women, too. That's the, you know, women seem to be more emotional creatures, which is fine. It's, you know, that's, that's kind of an attractive quality sometimes. Well, actually, they did a study at the University of Toronto, and I'm glad you're sitting down as I tell you this because you're going to be shocked, but they found out that women are more emotional than men. No, it's true. It's true, Bob, really. And so I thought, well, that's research money that's well spent right there. But the thing that I loved about that is that women, we have an emotional brilliance, I call it, right? So we're in the world needs that, like our relationships need that for us to show up with that emotion. It's a type of intelligence that, yeah, we're good at knowing how we feel and saying it. And I used to do this thing earlier in the marriage, poor husband, I would sit him down on the couch for, I call it the State of the Union address, right, which is, we're going to talk about the state of our union. And now I leave that to the president, but, and I wanted him to talk about his feelings, because I knew as a woman, that's how you would have emotional intimacy is if he would talk about his feelings. I'd ask him about, like, when he was a kid or, you know, his father was yelling at him, whatever, like, I wanted that. And so I'd say, well, how did you feel? And my husband would be like, you know, hungry, you know, like here's like with my, with my hands. I feel like my hands. And I was like, Oh my God, he's like emotionally stunted. We're never going to have this intimacy because he doesn't even know how he's feeling. And it was like, the whole time I was like asking the wrong person, like, I'm the one with the emotional brilliance. And I'm, and I think my, my husband, well, I know my husband will be very happy. If no one ever asks him ever again, how he feels, because he just want to talk about it. So, and you look at that. You look at that. Yeah, how to hold hungry, tired, maybe right. So, but that was awesome. That's also like a head exploder for me as a woman, and especially with the modern marriage therapy model. That's very feminized in a way, because they'll want you to talk about how you feel or talk about your childhood or something. Anyway, so I thought that was what we were supposed to do. But I had the wrong idea. So now, now I, instead of asking him how I feel, I ask myself, like, how do I feel? And what do I need? And like, I'm like, Oh, I feel really tired. I'm going to go take a nap. And then I'll find out if things are really as dark as I think they are when I'm tired or, you know, if I just needed that nap. And so, and then when I wake up from the nap, feeling rested and happy, you know, there's my husband looking for me. He's like, Oh, hey, there you are. He's all happy to see me. So it's kind of funny how that works. That's great. Yeah, I have a checklist that I asked my wife when she's in a bad mood. All things that have nothing to do with me that I know make her. Are you hungry? Did someone say something to you? Are you tired? You know, is it your mother? Are you in physical pain anywhere? You know, you've got to cover the biological and stuff and stuff. And a lot of times it's just somebody said something that's eating at her that has nothing to do with me. I had that for sure. Yeah. I mean, once you learn this stuff, it becomes pretty amusing how we are. And, but I think, you know, I think maybe some women that are listening to this and maybe some men too. But how do you, how do you communicate? What is the best way to communicate to get something that you might want that your husband or wife or, you know, the other person? How do you do that? How do you get your husband to maybe do something that he's not doing? I mean, that the dishes was a great example. But there may be something, you know, that people just, I remember in frustration my wife saying to me once I just want you to change. Oh, and I was like, well, that's not going to happen. I just, because people have a habit of being who they are, you know, I'll work at some of the things that aren't up to snuff. I don't know how good it's going to get. Yeah. Yeah. Like you are willing to put an effort to make her happy, but like, yeah, you've got to change. Some of us say in the other day, it's almost like, it's like a homicide and we're like, I'm going to change you. You will stop existing the way you are. And then I'll make you into the way I want you to be or whatever. It's like, it's like, just not how it works. But how to change your ideal partner. Yeah. Yeah. So, and, and, you know, it's funny because I actually, we have one of the skills I call this is the change your husband's skill. So I have it. I'll share it with you. But I want to say, but first I want to give out the formula for any woman is listening. Like, everyone needs this formula. Like, write this down. Honest to God, it's just life changing. So I have to share it. And then, but I want to share a caveat about it first. This is not the phrase, the one I'm going to share with you. It's not the phrase to use. If you want his attention, if you want affection, you know, you want more action in the bedroom or passion. This is not for that. I'll tell you what to do for that in a second. But this phrase is great for everything else that you want. If you're like me, most women I talk to, you want a lot of things. We want a lot of things. That's how we are. It seems to be how we're built. You know, you might want a bigger house or another baby or a cup of coffee or, you know, a new blanket or whatever. Right? There's just so many things. So this is the formula for everything that you want. That isn't his time or attention or affection. And it is, I would love. That's the beginning of it. I would love. And then it's just the final outcome. So it's not about how. So I've done the opposite where I've said, like, okay, I, I, I want a new dress. And there's one in the window over at Macy's. It's blue. It's got three quarter sleeves. Get me a size eight, right? Like, and like at that point, it's like, okay, that he's not inspired. He's like, you know, you're my errand boy. Go get it for me. Right. But, or I had a student once say, well, I want him to make more money and money's not like an end final outcome. Yeah. Right. So I didn't, I said, Doug, and I'm like, well, what would you have that you don't have now if he made more money? And she's like, well, I could buy myself things and things is still kind of egg. Right. So I'm like, well, what kinds of things would you buy? And she's like, well, I need new boots. So fine boots, new boots is the final outcome. Right. I would love new boots. No need to specify how that's going to happen. But what we see is it's pretty magical. Like, I remember one woman is like reading about this formula in one of my books. And she's like sitting on the couch and she's like, oh my gosh, I'm going to try it. She said, and she goes, her husband's walking by. She goes, I would love a glass of wine. And with no expectation. That's the other piece of it. Right. You can't be like, I would love a glass of wine. You know, like, are you going to get from me? Yeah. All right. It's just like, I would love a glass of wine. Right. Yeah. So, and her husband goes, oh, I don't think we have any. She goes, I know. I was just, I was just wanting some. And then she goes back to reading the book and next thing she knows he's coming down the stairs with his keys and his shoes and the kids buying them. Going, can I go to the store with you? And she goes, where are you going? And he goes, I'm going to the store to get you some wine. Right. Like he saw the opportunity to be her hero. She triggered his hero gene, went to the store and got her some wine. So, and this is what we see again and again. If you can express, use that formula, that magical formula to express your desires. Like, there's no limit to what your husband will do to make you happy if he thinks that he's got a shot. If you are pleasable, you have to be pleasable. And okay. Yeah. I made up that word. Fine. It doesn't exist. But it's the idea that you're going to feel successful when like you're going to come home with that wine. And I'm going to go, Oh, you got white. Oh, you know, like, no, like that's not, that's going to ruin the whole thing. So, oh my gosh, you went and got me wine. That is so sweet. Thank you for, for being so thoughtful. And then you were going to say there's a different way to approach the other things. You've been holding your breath this whole time for that. I've enjoyed every moment of this conversation. Thanks, mom. Me too. No, but you're right. Okay. So there is something totally different. And it is really about. So I'll give you, I'm going to tell a little story that kind of illustrates it. So, do you, would you agree that, well, I, I believe that there's a, the best aphrodisiac on the planet for men is free. It works fast. And most people, most women don't know about it. So I want to, I want to show that right now because this is really how you skyrocket the passion. And so, you know, I'll check, check this out with you because you're a man. So you'll know, even, you'll know, first, and if this is true, but that aphrodisiac is respect. It's respect. Do you agree with that? Wow. Is there anything sexier than a woman who respects you? No. Okay. No, that beats cleavage. If he's cleavage, right? I love that. Okay, that's good. I'm going to use that beats cleavage. So, so I'll tell you a little story. So one of my students was her marriage was in distress. They had been sleeping in separate beds for six months, and it was her second marriage. They had a blended family with stepkids, Kathy Murray, and she had been going to therapy every week by herself because her husband wouldn't go to therapy about the marriage. So she's going by herself every week for an hour, week to complain about her husband, Doug. And nobody ever got happier that way, by the way, by complaining about their spouse for an hour, we could seem like it's going to work. I don't like Doug. I've never liked him. You've never liked Doug, right? I know. Way to hit into the story, Doug. Doug's like redeeming the industry. I don't know why she looked up with Doug, but anyway, it's not with Doug. I mean, Paula Lee's Doug, right? Personally, you can't read minds. What she wants. Anyway, so, and Kathy was the CFO of a huge private school, really prestigious private school. So she was helping her husband at home manage the finances, and, but it wasn't going well. She's using the same skills that she's successful with at work at home. And you think about it, like your goals at home are totally different. Like my goals at home, I want my husband to like, you know, hold my hand and stroke my hair and tell me how beautiful and wonderful and special I am and amazing. At work, I really just want, you know, I want to, you know, manage my, my team and, and improve the bottom line, right? Totally different goals. They're different goals. But she was doing this and it wasn't going well. And so she had just finished reading my book and she thought, I have nothing to lose. I am going to experiment with some of this stuff in this book. And so Doug came to her and said, Hey, you got to tell me what you want me to do with this cell phone plan. So tell me what you want me to do. And so she just looked at him and she said, she picked it right out of the book. She said, Oh, you know what, Doug, whatever you think. And he just looked at her like, no, you know, he'd been trained. Like, if you screw this up, you are going to be in so much trouble because no, you got to tell me what you want me to do with the cell phone plan. And, and she was thinking like, how do you know, I hope he doesn't screw it up. He might, you know, we'll have crummy service, we'll waste money, whatever. But instead of saying all that, she said, you know what, Doug, whatever you think, she just repeated it. And then she added, I trust you. And Doug went away and did the cell phone plan. She was afraid he's going to screw it up, but he didn't. He did fine. Right. And Doug knew on some level that the reason he hadn't let her make those decisions in the past is because he didn't, she didn't trust him. But this time she did. She trusted him. And then that night he came over to her and put his hand on her shoulder, which was a big deal and said, you were so nice today. And tears just started rolling down her cheeks and they slept in the same bed for that very night for the first time in over six months. And the next day she, she fired her counselor and she, she called me. She started training with me. And she's, that was 20 years ago. And she still gets tears in her eyes when she talks about how tragic it would have been to throw out Doug, the man of her dreams. Now, you know, you didn't like him. I know previously, but now I just, I just, now, are you feeling better about Doug? Now do you see? Yeah, I was just good qualities. I just don't like his haircut. I know. Maybe, maybe if he got a better haircut. So part two of that would be if he had screwed the plan up, then what do you do? Let's see. I knew it. I knew it. You can never do anything right. You always do the wrong, you know, never always. Those are dangerous words, by the way. Yeah. You know, if this is for me, the part where the relationship is the dojo, right? The relationship is the place where I'm confronted with myself because people tend to live up to my expectations. My husband really rises to my expectations. That's great. And so if I show up with my faith in him and, you know, keep in mind, like I married him because he was like the smartest guy I'd ever met, right? And most talented and just, you know, handsome and all that too. Capable, but capable guy, right? And when I show up with that, that's what I get. It's crazy. And when I show up thinking, he's probably going to screw this up, you know, one of her fellow husband who said he was making smoothies for his wife and her friend. And so he had him in the blender and there was, you know, a little something he had to dislodge with the wooden spoon. And she goes, watch this. He always makes splinters in the smoothies. And he's like, thinking like, no, I don't. And he's trying to dislodge the banana. And sure enough, there goes the wooden spoon and there's splinters in the smoothies. He's like, I swear she made me do it, which is not true, right? But, but it's interesting, right? That we tend to get what we focus on. What you focus on increases. So, okay, so let's say he screwed up the cell phone plan back to your point. You know, I know for me as a wife, I have a choice, right? I can make a big deal about the cell phone plan. And I have, I've done that. You know, I get a little focused on these things, or, you know, the taxes. Are we going to get that right off or whatever. And, and, or I can choose my faith and kind of look at the bigger picture too. Like, you know, one of the things I used to do, sadly, I was very controlling. That's how I, you know, stumbled into all this work was like, fish are always the last to know they're in the ocean. And I was the last to realize like, I'm not controlling. I'm just like, I'm helping. I'm just helping him, you know, dress better and be more ambitious and be healthier, of course, you know, because I'm on. And what I didn't realize is that helpful in my language is critical in husband language. And people don't respond well to, you know, list of the top 10 things I hate about you saying I hate you. And you're, and you're incompetent. There's really nothing worse. I could say to my husband, then, you know, you don't know what you're doing. You're incompetent. You're not capable. And blame, you know, those two things are really ugly. They don't help. Let's put it out. They don't help. And even if they're accurate, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. And when you say accurate, you know, it's kind of funny. Like, people are so, the truth is kind of squishy. And nobody's all black or white. I mean, there's so many examples, right? If like, well, this person's terrible. Well, except they have this quality, right? And that's like, you know, you can focus on that glass being half full or half empty or so, you know, like Doug. And really, he was awful, but turned out it was really just his haircut. And the rest of them was pretty good. Yeah, just his haircut. That's so funny. You're a funny woman and I feel happy for your husband. You figured this stuff out. Yeah, it's, it is really indescribably wonderful to finally have that marriage I dreamed of having when I was, I was 22, standing at the altar saying I do. Yeah, I did it. Like, it's, it feels like the biggest accomplishment. And we give out like Academy Awards, right? Or we give out, I don't know, you know, NASCAR trophies and things like that. But what about, you know, for me, like a woman who, who finds her faith and trust in her husband and fixes her family, like stays married and doesn't just stay married, but makes her marriage wonderful. Yeah, even though maybe other people told her to get divorced, you know, you should just leave him like, you know, I had counselors tell me that and I just feel like, you know, there should be wife awards or something. I, you know, I have now that I've helped thousands of women fix their marriages. I see, I see how much courage it takes, how much commitment, something I really admire. And let's talk about something else here, because when you, when you think about when you were mentioning this, because we want, we want our partners to be a certain way. Everyone wants a certain set of things. And you were talking about controlling and things. And those things are based on two things. One is a bit of selfishness. And, but even more so, fear, fear that it's never going to happen and I'm not going to get what I want. That's exactly right. And, and if, as individuals, we can look at what am I most afraid of if this doesn't happen. Well, if he doesn't bring me flowers, then I'm not lovable. And he, I made a mistake. I'm going to die alone. I'm going to take it all the way. That's right. I'm going to die alone and, and broke. Maybe. Yeah, let's just go to work. Broken alone. It's over. Then I wonder like, well, how many people do I know that have really died that way? Not that many. And I don't share about this very often, but my mother died alone in her home. She was divorced from my father. And my stepmother of, gosh, like 30 years now, I have a wonderful stepmother. Susie is, you know, still vibrant in the live and they ride their bikes together every day in their garden. They're retired. Yeah. And she hosts Thanksgiving. She has massive Thanksgiving. She's a wonderful cook. She just loves a cook for all of us. So she gets to be this, you know, and I consider it like a kind of a prestigious position in a way in the family. Like she's, she's the mom. She's the matriarch, I guess, right? And sometimes I think about that. Like my mom threw him out. And I think she didn't have skills. Like she didn't know how to express her desires. She didn't know how to be respectful. She didn't know how to have positive expectations instead of negative ones or how to stop being too helpful. And it was heartbreaking for the, you know, the four of us kids, of course, but for the adults too, you know, both of my parents. I just walking wounded for years. And so maybe it's no accident that I'm on a mission to end world of wars coming from that background, but I see the contrast, you know, I see where Susie is able to enjoy these things that my father wants to provide for her. She quit working and my father supported her, you know, they, she was a nurse, really smart charge nurse, but she quit her job one day and my dad was like, all right, you know, I'll, I'll be your hero. I will support you. I'll take care of you. And I just think of all the things that my mother could have had. And she instead, no, she died alone in her house. She did. You know, for me, I was at that crossroads where I was going to maybe throw out this wonderful man I'm married to. And then try to find another wonderful man and then end up in the same spot because wherever I go, there I am. And I had those, I had some bad habits. I had some poor training. So, yeah, for me, it's just nothing better than knowing how to love and be loved in return. It's a wonderful thing. You know, I have to say with all the sort of challenges that it takes to live with another person, my wife is my best friend in the world. And it is just such a wonderful thing to have a partnership like that and to go through life to even it's just a check in for two minutes. A day, you know, if we're both busy or something, just to know that that it's like, as a friend of mine, he calls his wife True North. Because she's True North for me. And I thought that was a really wonderful thing to say. It is. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's worth a lot. You know, when you strip away all the other artifices of what it's like to be human being, how the person looks, even what their personality is, sex, money, all those things, you strip them all away. What is the essence of that other human being that connects the two people in a way that is lasting? I think it's lasting even beyond somebody passing away. I think it's even, I don't want to find that out, but one of us will. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think I love this, Bob, because what I hear you saying is like, it really is all it's cracked up to be. I'm not an easy person to live with, just so you know, I hope I even portrayed myself as anything other than flawed. If people want to contact you, I know you have these, I guess it's a workshop or what do you call it? You call it something? I do. I have all kinds of things, but you know, here's, here's something that's really fun that we have going on, easy and fast and free, which is you could go to my website, which is laura.org. And you can download the adored wife roadmap, and that's going to give you an overview of the six intimacy skills that we just talked about. And it also covers like the three top mistakes that women make when they're trying to get his attention, his time, his affection. And you can also listen to my podcast, the empowered wife podcast, for free, of course, on, you know, Apple podcast and Spotify and everywhere podcasts are. What's interesting about what you're talking about, there is some traditional kinds of almost throwback modes of operating that you're talking about that work. That's why they probably were around for so long. It could be. I know. I think it's like, I mean, you can't just throw out, it's sort of like rebelling against your parents. Like, I'm never going to be like my parents. And you find out like, well, you know, your parents, you know, didn't overdraw their checkbook and that might not be such a bad thing or whatever. Right. Like, you can't just like say, I'm just not going to do what they did. Because, and that maybe kind of, you know, the spot, I found myself in certainly as a feminist early in my marriage. I was like, oh, I'm not going to be, you know, I don't know. A surrendered wife. Now, look at me. Here I am. An empowered wife. A powered. Yeah. The thing about any of these causes, this is a side note. This is just a thing that I think about these different causes that people get on. There is a, there's an undercurrent or sometimes it's overt anger, which is the worst way to get anybody to listen or to change is to be, you know, fist in the air, angry yelling. There's nothing turns me off more than an angry person to have them change my mind. It just doesn't work. I think when you're in a marriage that is broken and suffering, you do feel angry feel. I was unbelievably resentful. And, you know, that was repulsive to my husband. I'm like, why aren't you spending more time with me? You know, he's like, uh, seeing yourself, right? Yeah, I mean, I didn't say that. But I, and what's interesting is, you know, underneath all that anger, there is usually just tremendous hurt. It was a great day when I figured out how to not be so hurt all the time, right? How to not, um, yeah, to, you know, to respond in such a way where I was really like taking care of Laura instead of just waiting for my husband to do things and then being disappointed again and again, right? There was, there was a whole theme there. Well, I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you. I feel like I've known you for decades. Thank you. What a nice compliment. I enjoyed this so much, too, Bob. Really fun to be on your show. Yeah, folks, the folks go to Laura Doyle.org. It's an organization, not a calm. It's an org. That's right. That's right. We're on a mission. Yeah, have a fabulous day. I really appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you, Bob. Much appreciation for you folks listening to the Exploding Human. Check out the website, the ExplodingHuman.com, the YouTube channel, the Exploding Human with Bob Nickman. And I want to thank Laura Doyle once again. Check out her website. Check out her books. Have a fantastic day. Happy relationships, folks.
