Rhythms of Grace
S10E18 - What Does The Bible Say About Homosexuality? Part II
- Well, hello, and welcome to Rhythms of Grace. My name is Christine, and I'm here with song. - Oh, that was for you, Christine. That's not me. - Oh, I appreciate it. - This is for me. (laughing) - Excellent. - And you can tell who has control of sound board. - Yes. - Nate is out again this week, but he should be back next week for our Rhythms of Grace episode. - Yup. - And I love playing with his board. It's a very underutilized one, Nate is here. He's just kind of simple and minimalistic. You know, I love all the side effects. - Yeah. - Right. - So he's like, how many buttons can I put? - Yeah, it's like a toy on Christmas morning. - Yeah. - Oh boy. - All right. So we have been in kind of a mini series within our larger series of humanudics. - Yeah. - Looking at the problem. - It's like a mini series within a macro series within the whole season. - Yeah, exactly. - And so, yeah, we've been talking about the really, like, I mean, the hot topic of, you know, how the Bible talks about homosexuality. And yeah, this is now our fourth episode, which is the most times we've talked, well, the fourth kind of, kind of fourth episode on this topic of homosexuality, right? The first being the cultural kind of analysis. Maybe it's only the third, maybe it's the third. - Oh, I thought this was the, what we talked about, sexuality in general. - Oh, that's true. We started there, and then we've kind of been-- - So this is like the second, specifically talking about a subgenre of sexuality. - Yeah, okay. - Which is kind of more than just a subgenre in terms of the cultural landscape discussion. So we went through a whole bunch of passages and talked about some misconceptions, misunderstandings, and even got into some Greek and Hebrew and Septuagint and XYZ. - Yeah. - And if you just understood that, then you've been following along. If not, go back and listen to some of the other previous episodes. - Yeah. - And so, yeah, we continue on with a passage in the book of Acts, and then the big one, which is Romans chapter one, talking about, again, like homosexuality and what does this all mean. So again, just to repeat ourselves, like we are strictly looking at the biblical text. This is very different from how do we live this out? How do we embody this as a Christian or as the gathered people of God? What does that mean for us in terms of our neighbors or politics or any number of things? What does that mean in terms of like me and my gay son or my gay dad or whatever? Like those are all issues, but again, we're kind of sticking to this one lane of the biblical text. We're going to add in some of those other layers. And so, if you haven't heard what you want us to talk about, please be patient, because this is a heavy topic that we want to do justice and not just kind of make sweeping broad statements because you could see that both very much the left and the right can be very reductionistic about this topic. - Yeah. Yeah, and it's helpful to know like, okay, we're going to talk about living this out. And it's because sometimes it can feel like, oh, okay, if we're looking at scripture and it's like, oh, you know, I think last week, maybe we've read the words condemn and, you know, they're the-- - Abomination. - Abomination that can feel like, oh my gosh, if that's what we're trying to live out, you know? And so just knowing, okay, we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about what it looks like in our culture, in our society to live out our calling as followers of Jesus. But right now, we're just looking at scripture. - Mm-hmm. - And so, yeah, for me, as, you know, an enneagram to like a people lover, I'm like, okay. We can journey through this, this other, another episode of just looking at the scriptures. - Right, and please don't abandon the journey because the tendency is, if you are more conservative, then there's an understanding that anything under the umbrella of homosexuality is wrong. Kind of like, where some Christians do that with evolution, for example. And if you're on the other side, on the progressive side, then it's like, well, you know, just about everything in the Old Testament in particular, but even some New Testament passages is obsolete and irrelevant. And we are taking neither approach here. And so, and oftentimes, there is a tendency to associate a certain position with a certain posture. So it's like, well, you're conservative, so you must hate LGBTQ people, no. Or you're progressive, and so, you know, you must not believe the Bible, right? And those kind of straw man attacks are just not helpful in this discussion. And I hear that all the time. - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it doesn't kind of give other people the benefit of the doubt that they are like you, trying to do their best to discern scripture in. - And it shuts off any kind of curiosity because like, okay, it should be more like, okay, tell me why you think this, or what experiences have you had, or, you know, those are better questions than just going on the offensive, so. - Yeah. So with that, we went through a number of passages. We went through the, sorry, Sodom Komorrah. We did the Leviticus holiness codes. We jumped to 1 Corinthians and Timothy, which talked about our sino coit, our sino coit, coitai. - That Greek can be a time twister. - And so, even in Malachoi and our sino coitai, you hear some derivatives of English word like coitus, is the English word for just intercourse, right? So Malachoi is maladapted coitus, right? So you could see some Greek with Latin influence that translated into English. And same with our sino coitai, again, coitus, right? So that's where some of the derivatives come from. Anyways, so Acts chapter 15. And this is where there is a council of the early church and the beginning of this Jewish movement around this Jewish Messiah named Jesus centered around the Jewish people. And all of a sudden, there was a movement that broke through just the insider Jews and really was reaching and touching Gentiles. That is non-Jews. And so unless you are Jewish, you are a Gentile as much as Christine and I are. We're all Gentiles. And so all of a sudden Gentiles were becoming Christians. And so they had to decide, do Gentiles or non-Jews, do they have to be circumcised, which was an Old Testament kind of law, which signified your inclusion in to God's people. So do they have to be circumcised in order to become a Christian? In other words, do they have to become Jewish before they become Christian? Or are they a Christian and circumcision is kind of like, well, it's, and it is not necessarily relevant today. And that is because, and if you read through the New Testament, Paul and others talk about the circumcision of the heart, right? Because circumcision in the Old Testament was a symbol of God being part of God's covenant. And in the New Testament, it doesn't take away the symbol. However, it makes it, it moves it from an external symbol to an internal reality. So that doesn't mean you physically circumcised your heart. What does it even look like? But really your heart is kind of set apart to be God's people. So just some context there. And so they decide, they have this whole council and here is what they decide. So verse 28 and 29, Christine. - All right. Verse 28 starts, "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit "and to us not to burden you with anything "beyond the following requirements. "You are to abstain from food sacrificed from idols, "from blood, from the meat of strangled animals "and from sexual immorality. "You will do well to avoid these things farewell." - Right. So in one sense, the paradigm of the Jewish religion kind of got broken through. And what they decided was, well, we shouldn't put all these burdens on Gentiles. Really, you should abstain from food that was sacrificed to idols, which was a lot of, yeah. That was a big, I mean, we don't have that issue now. But back then, it was a huge issue of associating with different fertility religions and temples and all that kind of stuff. I mean, the closest thing now is like, well, is your food, you know, where the chickens raised this way or the half way? But that's a whole different discussion. And then here's the other thing too. And you should stay away from, and the Greek word is "pornaya." And certainly, that is a callback to the Levitical Holiness Codes, which interestingly enough, Leviticus, some team, we won't go there. These codes applied not only to the Israelites, but also to the aliens who resided among them. So non-Jews as well too. So while it was specifically for the Hebrew/Jewish people of God, it applied to anybody that resided among them, because again, back then it was a theocracy. So anybody in this theocratic rule under God's reign, whether Jew or Gentile would be called to abide by these codes. - So it's interesting 'cause, yeah, I guess I'm curious 'cause that all makes sense. But when I read it in this list, what I guess what I'm reading is in terms of the context, like, okay, they're writing to Gentiles who have not followed God. So abstain from these four things that are involved in your worship of your other gods. Food sacrificed from idols, blood, the meat of strangled animals, which were often, that was how sacrifices were made, and from sexual immorality, which was a huge part of a lot of those worship practices. So I guess I read it and I think, oh, isn't this a list of specifically commands to converts from a religion where these were the four big things that happened within? So I guess I'm wondering if it, yeah, it feels like, oh, this is kind of a category of idol worship. - Yeah, yeah, so the point of this passage is not about sexual morality. - Okay, yeah. - That is not the major point of this, right? Again, like the other passages, we focus in on that, but that is focusing on the trees, not the forest. - Okay, yeah. - And by sometimes doing that, you miss the point. - Yes. - Again, we make these things, clobber passages, making them seem exclusively and clearly about this one issue. When the Bible never talks about it that way. - Yeah, okay. - And so you're right, right? - Okay. - So again, what's interesting is as we go from Old Testament, which some folks would be like, well, that's obsolete, it's not relevant. And this is different compared to the issues of slavery and women where we saw, as we went from Old Testament to New Testament, there was a progressive-- - Loosening? - Yes, loosening of the laws and commands. And that's not particularly, it seems like, what is happening here. Now, we'll see again, when we get to Romans chapter one. And so that's a plot twist there, right? Because with slavery and women, there was a definite trajectory. And oftentimes, critics of Christianity will lump all those three together. - Yeah, all the time. - Right, yeah. And so that's where, again, a more nuanced understanding of hermeneutics, the interpretation of scripture, and the purpose of scripture and the narrative of where God is bringing this story is so important. I'm trying to think of an illustration. Maybe you could think of one better in literature or film where somebody, particularly in a hero's journey, they have a certain view that's very myopic in the very beginning. But as they go, their horizons are expanded and they have a completely different view of, let's say, the enemy or something else by the end. Whether, I mean, even the Lord of the Rings, it's like that, right? It's like, well, no, I just want to stay in my own little hobbit hole. And at the end of the trilogy, I mean, it's just a whole different character in hero. And so you see that with slavery and women in particular. Here, who knows? We'll see there may be more revelation later on, but it seems like there's consistency. And I think that has more than just some bearing, but has some bearing on how we interpret this from a difficult narrative perspective. - Yeah, and it's interesting 'cause it's, again, I think we like to separate out a homosexual activity from any other sexual activity. And really, in a lot of these passages, what we're reading is, yeah, it's very rarely separated out. And yeah, when we're talking about sexuality as a whole has been maybe not loosened, but really held to a standard throughout the scriptures. - Yeah, and the passage we're gonna dive a little bit deeper into, which is Romans chapter one. - Romans chapter one, and let's start with verses 24 to 27. - All right, let me see. So, oh, yeah, this is a rough one. Okay, therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served created things rather than the creator who is forever praised, amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way, the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. So, a couple things about this before we kind of dive in. Like, people may think this is about homosexuality or as if that's the main point. And it is a smaller point under a larger umbrella. And incidentally, this is the only passage in the Bible that actually refers to lesbian sexual relationships. 'Cause we said in the last episode, the Old Testament only referred to men. So, really, the point that Paul is trying to make here is like the power of the gospel that is made manifest when it is received by a person. That it is more than just some sort of philosophical teaching that you accept or reject. And that's often what we think of when we say, oh, believe, it's more than just believing in your head. Rather, it is an outworking that is evident in the person's life in terms of the direction, the purpose, and the focal point of who they are. And so, that's the main point of Romans chapter one, the Paul is talking about the power of the gospel to transform. So, while he mentions men exchanging natural intercourse and all that kind of stuff, among a lot of other things, that is homosexuality is not the point of this passage. - Yeah, and again, I think it's often taken out, but there's this huge list that follows. And then Romans two starts, "You therefore have no excuse, "you who pass judgment on someone else." - Which is just, again, we don't make it to Romans two. - We will, but I think most of the time. - Right, there's a couple things in Romans chapter one that I think is really interesting. One, when Paul talks about pieces, this is in verse 18, which you didn't read, but for the wrath of God is real from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. And so, he is talking about wickedness or unrighteousness, and he's contrasting that to righteousness. And this is the point he's trying to make is that the righteousness of God is made manifest in his wrath. And that's another word that we misinterpret. And because of God's wrath, that is contrasted to our unrighteousness. So the one thing I'll say is we often misread Romans chapter one thinking that these sins are what provokes God's wrath. That's not the case, right? And so, people will say, "Oh, you're gay." So that provokes God's wrath. No, actually, let me redefine God's wrath because we think of God's wrath as like this. He's capriciously angry. - Or even like, I think about Sodom and Gomorrah being just totally destroyed. That's God's wrath. That's my picture of God's wrath, firestorm destruction. - Fire and brimstone down on you. 'Cause you have provoked his anger, right? God's wrath on fallen human beings is kind of ironic because it basically, God's wrath means that he allows you to do what is abandoning your own sense of God glorifying conscience and morality. He allows you to go your own way. In fact, I would even say God's mercy, while that sounds like a tender kind thing, sometimes being caught in your addiction is actually God's mercy. It doesn't feel that way for the person who like something is exposed, but that exposure, especially when it results in repentance and the life that's transformed, that is the point of God's mercy. God's wrath then isn't, oh, you did this bad thing and so you've provoked his anger. God's wrath actually means he is allowing you to run your course because he knows that well, he's not gonna force you, right? We are creatures with free will. And so God's wrath means he lets us go to do what we want in our own natural fallen desires. And then, and so that is God's wrath. Does that make sense? - Yeah, that makes sense to me. - And so in saying this about God's wrath, then these are symptoms of behavior because of God's wrath, because he lets us kind of do what we want. This is the condition that humanity finds itself in. And these are behaviors that express that our fallen condition and God just kind of not restraining us, which I mean, in one sense, in our own, in the most selfish kind of way, that's what we want. We don't want God to restrain us. And sometimes God says, okay. - Yeah. - And that's actually God's wrath. So. - Yeah, no, that's a helpful context when looking at these passages. 'Cause again, I think that's not how it's talked about, or it hasn't been for the, you know, I feel like maybe the last 50 years in America. - Yeah. - So, yeah. - And so when Paul talks about homosexuality here, it's actually a secondary or even, it's illustrative in nature. It is not the point of this passage. - Yeah. - So, so it's talking about rebellion against God. And go ahead. - Oh, I was just gonna say, and it's interesting 'cause there's like, when you look, there's the two, in my version, there's two paragraphs. There's 24 and 25 where it talks about, they were given over to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another, et cetera. And then, because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts, which talks about, yeah, women, inflamed with lust for one another, men committing shame flocks with other men. And I think a lot of times, again, I've heard this used all as one section of like, oh, sexual impurity equals the following, but really it's like sexual impurity, among which one is. And we kind of like, you know, kind of push aside, again, I think like maybe cis, straight people are like, oh, those sexually impure other people, which again, we've talked about in previous episodes, that's not really a fair estimation of our culture right now. - Yeah, yeah, and like you said, and we'll get there, after chapter one, in chapter two, God really condemns a self-righteous condemners. - Mm-hmm. - Which is all of us. So, yeah, we'll get there, but let me see. So, the thing that's interesting about this passage is the word play exchange, plays a pretty central role in this passage, right? - Oh, yeah. - And so there's a direct parallelism between the rejection of God and the rejection of kind of the sexual roles, if you will. So, in earlier in this passage, it talks about verse 23 of Romans chapter one, where Paul says that we have exchanged the glory of God for kind of mortal created things. So, we've exchanged that. So, what we were created and tend to do, which is worship God, we've exchanged for worshiping substitutes of God, basically anything created. - Yeah. - And so, and then when he talks about God handing us over again, right, like his wrath is us kind of saying, handing us over to kind of our own desires. You wanna follow your lusts, hetero, homo, whatever. Okay, you know, I'm gonna turn that over to you and you'll kind of see what happens. So, we're, and then in verse 26, 27, how women exchanged. And it's the same Greek word. - Yeah. - Natural relations for unnatural and men giving up, exchanging natural for unnatural. And so, there's a parallel, in a literary sense, when it's talking about, oh, we've exchanged the glory of God for the glory of creation. He's using that same parallelism there too. - Yeah, I also appreciate the image, 'cause again, I don't, when you're reading through the whole list, there are other things that grab your attention, but hearing them kind of pulled out like that, it reminds me of a scene from The Lord of the Rings where like, Peron is going over to Gandalf and he like, quickly like, takes the Palantir, which is this huge, magical thing, and then like, replaces it real quick with a jug. And I feel like that's the image that I have in my mind with this, of like, yeah, this, almost maybe someone new, but like this almost sneaky exchange of like, you don't even know that you're holding a fake or a fraud or something. - Right, right. - Anyway, yeah. - Yeah. And then even the word natural and unnatural is also used throughout this passage. And sometimes people will argue, well, natural is anything that is contrary to your own nature. And so sometimes progressives will say, well, if I'm oriented towards homosexuality, that is natural for me, but I think that's a bit stretching. Because especially the way that Paul talks about natural and unnatural, not just among when it comes to sexuality, but just, and also that too, when the natural and unnatural is used as a convenient, Greek word for heterosexual and homosexual, because, again, there was no word for homosexuals or homosexuality, right? There was all those metaphors of a man lying with a man or a passive boy in a, in a, in a, petarastic kind of relationship. And so again, when language is kind of restricted or there's a different kind of reality back in the ancient years compared to today, again, we do that in English too. There are words that don't, like, I don't know Korean that well, but there are, there are words, especially like strong, like just guttural kind of, you know, curse words almost, that you can't convey in English. Like any English translation is just kind of weak compared to like this Korean word for this or that, right? And so we can't just say, oh, there's no such thing back then or they don't have a word for it. Yeah, I mean, that's true of all languages and all cultures, so. - Yeah. One thing that, yeah, I guess I'm curious, 'cause I've heard that also as like a cultural counter-argument of like natural versus unnatural, because again, it can kind of, that's one of those phrases, kind of like abomination that can hit hard and it can hurt, I think, or wound. And so I've seen that as a big, maybe cultural proponent for homosexual relations of like, oh, well, what about, you know, I don't know, that the one that comes to mind is like sea horses where they're like, there's exchanges over the course of their life or those different, like what about these other kind of natural examples of this? And so I guess it's maybe helpful to know what the word actually means, that it maybe doesn't mean like natural and unnatural in the way that we think of it today, but it means something maybe different, question mark. - Well, so in the Greco-Roman world, it was used among Stoics. So it was more of a moral philosophical term. - Okay. - So if you put it that way, it's more than just, oh, what's my natural propensity? Because it's natural for somebody who has a genetic propensity towards alcoholism, it's natural to get drunk. - Yeah. - So moral philosophers, especially among the Stoics, Stoics would say natural and unnatural behavior was natural was right moral action. And unnatural was against right moral action. So even the Stoics who were not Christians, but was a very secular philosophy that, and there's a lot of intersection of truth and Christianity, but there's a very specific way of talking about it. So it had less to do with what you feel or your emotions or your own personal preference, as much as, again, the Stoics would say, oh, there's this universal moral action that we would call natural. - Yeah, which is, again, that's really helpful 'cause I think I've heard an argument a lot about like, well, if the Bible uses the word natural, what's natural is for humans to kill one another and fight and lust after, you know? And so just that, okay, natural means something different than it does to us today. - Yeah, I think we said this in other episodes too, but I think it's natural for humans, dare I say, especially men, to not be committed in a monogamous relationship. - Yeah. - So the most natural thing, if we wanna go by natural, well, then yeah, multiple partners, multiple marriages, that should be the most natural thing if we wanna talk natural in terms of centered around us. - What we are prone to. - Yes, versus what the Stoics would talk about. And Paul is using, again, we have to understand when Paul uses language, he's using in the context of a Greco-Roman world in philosophy and not so much ours. And so we will, again, put our lens and say, oh, that's what Paul must've meant. And that's where we miss the mark sometimes. - Yeah. - And Paul is not actually original in talking about natural and natural, right? Oh, unnatural. In the Jewish context, we've talked about it, like homosexuality was regarded as, you know, it was prescribed, it was not allowed. And-- - Prohibited? - Yeah, it's prohibited. And yeah, so I guess the big thing is, we might think Paul is making this pronouncement and using natural and unnatural, but he is not the originator of this whole idea. So, a little, Romans chapter one, it is not to teach a code of sexual ethics. It's, nor is it a passage warning God's judgment and wrath on those guilty of particular sins, okay? Rather, Paul is giving a diagnosis of what happens when our, you know, being fallen creatures, our disordered loves, if you will, what happens when we, when kind of, he names a reality of that. And he says, when that is the case and God's wrath is shown and demonstrated, meaning he lets us kind of do our own thing, this is what happens and he has a whole list of things that happens. And again, this is really important and I know I've said this before just moments ago, homosexuality, homosexual activity in this passage is not the thing that provokes God's wrath. That is oftentimes how some conservatives will see it as. Because you're gay, God's angry at you. Rather, it is a consequence of God deciding to, well, let rebellious creatures kind of do their own thing among a number of other. - A number of other things, including, they disobey their parents, have no understanding, you know, there's a variety, they gossip. - And so, part of what's also being said in the list of all these things is homosexuality is not specially reprehensible. Compared to any number of these other things, they are all an abomination. They're all, like, and we use that term, especially for homosexuality, well, some Christians do, but we have to understand like all of these things are things that God is, his eyes are, I mean, he's just too holy for any of these things to be in his presence. - Yeah. - Yeah. Again, I think we separate out the one. And then, you know, I think especially today, maybe sometimes it's like, we read verses 24 through 27 where it deals with all that and we're like, whoo, that was enough for today. I'm gonna just call it, and then we don't keep reading to see what's actually happening in this passage. - Yeah, well, we went up to verse one, let's go there. - All right. Yeah, so again, starts out. You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever you point you judge another, you are condemning yourself because you who pass judgment do the same things. - Yeah, so saying it again, self-racist judgment of homosexuality is just as sinful as the homosexual behavior itself. Basically, Paul is saying, oh, you Jews think you have the upper hand because you, well, you know that the holiness codes prohibit this. And so now you stand in judgment, basically he's saying, wow, and Jesus does that with the Pharisees as well too in the gospels. - Yeah. - And so all these evils listed remain evil in God's eyes. - Yeah, and I think it speaks to a lot of what we will be talking about like next week in our conversation about kind of our response, right? Is it's like, okay, if you can look at that whole list and say, none of the supplies to me, I've never gossiped or disobeyed my parents or whatever else, you know, bad envy or whatever it is. - Yeah, so let me take, we're doing good on time. We got lost last time and next thing, you know, we were like, oh my goodness, it's almost an hour. Let me just take a little side road here and talk about this in a little bit larger framework when it comes to the Biblical narrative. And particularly when it looks at God's people as a covenant community, when it against a backdrop of the cross and especially in the backdrop of the new heavens and new earth. So we'll talk a little bit about those things. And in the next episode, we'll kind of go about like, okay, now after all this, so what does that mean for me? So first, I think in all these discussions about homosexual behavior and things like that, we in the West usually make morality all about private decisions. But throughout scripture, it is, and this is not just homosexuality, but heterosexual sins as well too, it is never a private matter. It always affects the covenant community of God's people. You see that over and over, like Leviticus 18. It says, "Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways. "For by all these practices and nations, "I am casting out before you have defiled themselves. "Thus the land became defiled and I punished it "for its iniquity and the land vomited out "and its inhabitants. "But you shall keep my statutes and my ordinances "and commit none of these abominations, "either the citizen or the alien who resides among you." And so out of a whole list of prohibitions, he says, "Look, this is not just a private matter "if you are part of my family. "It is something that goes beyond just yourself," which is very antithetical to our culture today. - Yeah. Yeah, I think there's that question of like, "Okay, but who is this harming? "Who's being hurt by this?" And I guess, yeah, sometimes I go back and forth, right? 'Cause it's like, well, that was specifically written to the people who were under a theocracy, which is a different cultural context, right? And so it's kind of like a both and I think of, there are a lot of things that God says that's like, "Oh, this is how, you know, if you as a community do this." So anyway, that's just one thing that sometimes hard to sort out is, we're not under a theocracy. - Right. - And so. - But we have gone to the other extreme, and in terms of individualistic, postmodern kind of view of morality, whereas again, in Eastern cultures, it's very different. Like, if you did something shameful, well, it's on you. You know, it doesn't necessarily mean, means, let's say, you know, your brother or your parents are affected. At the same time, that is very particular to our modern age and culture. That is not true, for example, in Eastern cultures. And so, for example, the Bible also say, fornication of the prostitute is wrong, and one of the reasons is because your bodies are members of Christ. And so therefore, to engage in sexual immorality defiles the body of Christ. Now again, we have very little to no understanding of that, because we think sin is just on me. - Yeah. - But sin is like an infection in the body where, you know, if one member suffers all suffer, and even that whole idea of like, well, you know, it's consensual, it's not harming anybody. Again, we have, these questions, these rationales, we have to put against, pit against kind of God's purposes and laws and not so much our own or cultural filters. - Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, I was trying to find a passage of scripture to kind of, I have, well, is there more along this line? 'Cause I have a question about-- - No, no, yeah, go ahead. - 'Cause I know for me, when I first kind of started on this journey of trying to figure out what God's word said on this topic, one of the things that I found most compelling is that, you know, a lot of times people will say, and especially, you know, they'll say, okay, Paul was talking to a very specific audience, that part is not really, or some people are like, forget Paul, you know, for a lot of reasons. And so they only want to know what comes out of the mouth of Jesus, which is, I guess, you know, that's his own kind of set of flaws. But one thing that I thought was interesting is that, even though, so Jesus does speak to marriage and sexuality in a couple different places. - Yeah. - And, yeah, I thought, yeah, it was helpful for me to read kind of Jesus' approach to marriage. And we talked about this a little bit with the topic of divorce, of, you know, he kind of, he, if anything, kind of draws the line closer to what we want to see in heaven. You know, what the end goal is, is, you know, no divorce. And, except in, you know, case of sexual immorality is what he says. But, I guess, there's one place, and I lost my internet connection. - Oh, no. - Where? - How can you survive? - I know, yeah. So I, down side of having your Bible on your phone, but, there's one place where he talks about marriage, and he said, and he reiterates what we see in the Old Testament, which is, for this reason, it is written, "Man will leave his father and mother "and be united to his wife," and then we become one flesh. And so, I guess, for me, more, the clobber passages, I haven't always found helpful, 'cause I think we've, we've gone through them, right? So, I'm gonna mora. - Yeah. - Not about homosexuality. - Yeah. - Like, the passage where it talks about, you know, it lists, okay, blood, and, you know-- - Food, sacrifice, idols, too. - Food, sacrifice, idols, and sexual immorality, that's another kind of section. And so, for me, it was most helpful going, going back to Jesus' words and looking, not because what Paul said wasn't relevant, 'cause I think there's, it can guide of, like, that list in Romans, like, okay, there's a stance taken here. - Right. - But I found it most helpful to see, okay, so what Jesus says marriage is about is leaving your father and mother, and being united to your wife, and I found that more helpful than, I guess, maybe, all the things that it's not. - Right, so you found the description of what is intended, more helpful than what is, supposedly, prohibitions. - Exactly, yeah. 'Cause, yeah, I think, again, we can look at the list of, like, what God is not for. - Right. - But at the end of the day, knowing what he is for is a lot more helpful, I think. - Right, right. Yeah, and I just lost my train of thought. But, and you're right, I think, while some may say, well, okay, but that's not really, specifically, talk about homosexuality as an issue, but think about all the different ways, like, like, nobody says, well, when I got married, I didn't, like, my wife didn't say anything specifically about sleeping with another woman, right? There's so many things wrapped up in the institution of marriage, as the Bible describes it, that sets the foundation for a positive view of what God intended. - Mm-hmm. - And no matter how much we may deviate, and this is under the larger umbrella of sexual immorality as a whole, that all falls under the, it's outside God's purpose and intent, because here's the picture of God's intent from the beginning. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - Yeah. So, anyway, I just wanted to kind of throw that in there, 'cause I, again, I couldn't find where he actually said it, 'cause my wife, I went down, but, yeah, that's just, I think sometimes we can get wrapped up in those clover passages and what they are or aren't, or, yeah, but instead, looking at the broader picture from Genesis through Revelation of Marriage, I've just found more helpful, that XYZ principle, you know? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, when you look at the cross, I think this is a little hint into next episode, but the cross kind of models the way in which the Christian community ought to respond to, let's say, any list of number of things, that the culture goes against the grain in terms of Christian values, right? And you see that in Jesus, right, while we were still sinners, he died for us, and so instead of responding in condemnation, which is what often you hear on the news, what you see in Jesus is one of a posture of sacrificial service, and we're gonna talk more about that next episode, but the cross really models the way for us, and so honestly, whatever your position is, your heart should want to love and reach out to the LGBTQ+ community out of a love for God and God's love for them. And to the degree that you struggle with that, I did have one person in a recent email exchange, tell me that, that in his email, he said, and he used these words, it was pretty strong. He said, "I'm at war with the LGBTQ+ community." And in the email exchange, he did say of, you're helping me think through some of the feelings that I have, he had listened to some old podcasts and even an older sermon, and I think he is recognizing that doesn't align with the cross and how he's supposed to live that out as a Christian. I think just to say that you war against a certain community or a segment of people in itself is pretty much an abomination right there. - And again, yeah, when Jesus was here as our model for how to engage with the world, he spent a lot more time with common people, sinners, prostitutes, people who were wounded or hurting or had been hurt by the religious elite than he did with the people sitting in the churches and the Pharisees and the Sadducees. - Yeah, well, and that's one example where I don't remember if we talked about this in a previous episode, but with the whole Olympics fiasco, right? I remember seeing, well, first of all, there's all that, like, oh, I'm offended, it's a parody of the Lord Supper, the opening ceremony, and I just remember rolling my eyes, 'cause even like national Christian leaders were getting on the bandwagon of social media, just condemning what was happening and things, and I remember thinking like, oh my goodness, can you get so worked up over this and so, quote-unquote, offended because they're hating on your religion or whatever, and so on one hand, you have people who respond like that, and then on the other hand, this, just talking about the polarization that happens, I saw this one Facebook, more recently, a Facebook post of somebody who was quoting somebody else talking about like, well, yeah, the drag queen, so those are the people that Jesus would have hung out with and he would have loved and he would have reached out to, and they're made in the image of God, and those are the very people he would have gone to ignoring their religious leaders, and the thing that was interesting is that you see, like, politically and theologically, people like thumbs up or making comments, like, it was, at least the friends that I have, it was people who are more progressive, who are putting thumbs up on the second post, like, yeah, right on, right? And then conservatives who would jump on the bandwagon with, you know, being offended kind of post, and there's a part of me that's like, well, I think you can hold what we've laid out in terms of New Testament theology and ethics, and still thumbs up kind of what was said in that second post of like, yeah, Jesus would have, like, definitely loved and reached out and hung out with and affirmed these people as made in the image of God. They are not less human. They are not throwaways of society. They're, you know, they would have been loved and embraced by Jesus, and I think so many times, there's just this dichotomy between those two sides. - Yeah, yeah, and I think, yeah, I'm excited to talk about that more in the next episode. I don't want to get too ahead of ourselves, but yeah, one thing we didn't really talk about in this in the last two episodes, which I'm just realizing now is, I mean, we kind of hinted at it or, yeah, talked about it, but I think there's sometimes a conflation in certain groups between, I guess, like, desire and action where there can be a, you know, you are wrong versus, an action is wrong, or you are, you know what I mean? Like, I think there can be a conflation between those, and I guess we haven't really seen that happen anywhere in Scripture, except for the ones where I mentioned, you know, sometimes we accidentally try to make them say that, like, I think it was the Romans passage, or no. - It was, you once were. - Yes, yes, and this is what you once were. - Right. - But yeah, I guess I'm curious if you wanted to speak to that at all. - Yeah, I mean, I think this is what you're talking about, like, sometimes we misinterpret that saying, like, it's talking about core identity, where he's actually talking about behavior and action, right? So, like, it says liars and adulterers. Well, I mean, you are, like, and it may seem like that because you have committed adultery, you have lied, and so it's more the action and the behavior, not so much like God never condemns the dignity of the person or persons. It's always the behavior. He doesn't condemn even desire, or orientation, or any of those things, right? And that's the nature of temptation. Like, temptation in and of itself is not sinful. So you could be tempted to gamble, to get drunk. You may be tempted to lie. You may be tempted to commit adultery. You may be, and honestly, how many of us have never been there, right? We've all been there. That's very different than the actual behavior and engagement in those activities. So we're talking about-- - Yeah, I think that's what I wanted to just talk about 'cause I think sometimes people can, yeah, feel like they're saying like, oh, you know, this view of homosexuality is a view of homosexuals. And I think that that's a really important distinction to make, just to say like, okay, you know, maybe this action would be a sin, but you are not a sin. - Yes. - Or this action might be a mistake, but you are not a mistake. Like, you were created by God in his image. And I just, yeah, I wanted to make sure, at some point, we talked about that distinction, that again, I don't know that the church has always made clear. - No, no, in fact, and the portions of the church have said the opposite, which have communicated not good news, right? And so, sometimes people will ask, well, are gays welcome at your church? Yeah, as much as liars, drunkards, and adulterers are, right? Of course, does that mean we allow drunkenness and lying to happen, or not to have it, but we condone those things in a marriage, or any relationship? No, of course not, right? But that doesn't mean there's an exclusion, or a hate. We don't hate people who are divorced. We don't hate people who lie. We don't hate people who, again, there has to be that distinction. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. - And in fact, I would say we need to kind of swing the pendulum the other way, and show people, especially those who are marginalized, or sexual minorities, that they're actually loved, by Christians, and by the church, and therefore, by God. I think that's where the church really falls short, is we don't do that. We make our pronouncements of hate and judgment, if you will, and our actions betray us, even though we say, oh, God loves them, right? - Yeah, yeah, no, I think that, yeah, that makes sense. Like showing radical love, where there has been a lack. Yeah. - Yeah, there's one quote I wanna read from one scholar, which I think is interesting. And he says this, the New Testament offers no accounts of homosexual Christians, tells no stories of same-sex lovers, ventures, no metaphors, that place a positive construal on homosexual relations. He goes on, yeah. So, which is, again, interesting, that all the symbols of marriage, that point to the new heavens and new earth, is within the context of marriage as is outlined in Genesis chapter one. And so, now, that said, (chuckles) some of you are like, that's it. I'm not listening to this podcast anymore. You guys are a bunch of bigots who, all that. Again, please remain patient as we kind of flesh out. What does this even mean in a pluralistic society, where there is a freedom of religion, freedom of speech, there is, we are not under theocracy. And Christians aren't even the majority in our culture. We are very much a minority. So, what does that look like, right? Should we protest certain laws and legislation that's going through? What does that mean for us in terms of loving our neighbor, loving God, especially around the issue? What does it mean to love our son or daughter, who is this and struggles with this, or is wrestling with this? Those are very different conversations. - Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, I'm excited to lean into those, and also, yeah, to be able to talk through. Yeah, just, I guess, final note before we close, 'cause we've been going in almost an hour. But, is that just like we talked about with every other topic so far, like, this is not a set apart topic where, you know, yeah, something can be not God's ideal, and yet not be a deal breaker. - Yeah, yeah. - And I think, yeah, I'm excited to just talk about how we live that out, and, yeah, I'm excited to have, hopefully, Nate back next week. - Yeah, I mean, you know, I've had to do a lot more talking than I'm used to, and we look forward to, Nate, joining us again next week, and join us as we continue this whole conversation. Aren't you gonna say bye? - Oh, bye. (laughing) - 'Til next week, you all hear all this other clapping, and, yeah, 'cause Nate will be in control of the board again. See you next week. - See ya.