Our host Jeff Ignacio sits down with Roxanne Taku, Revenue Strategy & Operations lead at Airwallex. They spoke about building an operations strategy in EMEA and how to find the right tools and data sets for your region. They also discuss how to balance the quantitative and qualitative insights, drive improvements and productivity gains and centralise reporting.
The RevOps Review
The RevOps Review - With Jeff Ignacio and Roxanne Taku - Creating A Regional Strategy
(upbeat music) - This podcast is brought to you by Cognism. Cognism helps businesses connect with their dream prospects by providing premium contact, company, and event information, including firmographics, technographics, intent data, verified business emails, and verified mobile numbers. - Hey Roxanne, how's it going? - Hi Jeff, good, thank you, are you? - Good, good, good to have you on. So I'm joined by Roxanne Taku. She's in revenue operations over at Airewallex, covering the Emia region. Now, are there other regions you're covering besides like Europe? - No, you got it right, yeah, focusing specifically on the Emia region. - Very cool, and before we started talking and recording, you mentioned that you had started your career in sales before going to the ops, and you talked a little bit about your journey before moving into Airewallex. - Yeah, definitely would love to. So yeah, I've been in like SaaS tech my entire career, and spot on, I started in sales, like on the front lines, picking up the call phone, making those calls, sending out those emails, speaking with prospects, doing the demos. And I think it's actually been a great foundation in building that commercial acumen for anything that I'm doing today. I always think about back to those days, when I was doing that. So whenever I'm building up processes or anything, I think back to those days and how, whether that would be a benefit for me or not. So yeah, that first company that was working at FinTech, it was focused specifically on like the cloud accounting software space. And then I moved on to business operations within that company. And funnily enough, the way that I actually moved on to that was that I had biweekly one on ones with our chief commercial officer. And she actually suggested that I moved to business operations 'cause she was noticing that during our one on one, all the topics that I was bringing forward were always related to like process improvement. I was never really asking questions about like, how can I build my own pipeline as an individual more? How can I price things differently in order to leverage more of my own like commission at the end of the day? But it was always related to, how could we have better knowledge sharing across the team so that everybody can benefit from me? How can we better track my activity or my funnel, like my activity down the funnel so that I can then help myself and then also other people? So yeah, at the time, I actually didn't necessarily know what RevOps really was. So it was kind of like a business operation slash internal consultant within the company. So working very closely with leadership and sales reps to help them close deals faster. And then, so I was there for about two years and then I moved on to HubSpot where I worked on their international go-to market strategy team and that team was actually within the RevOps function. So that's actually where I came across the term revenue operations for the first time. So before I was doing it without knowing that I was doing it and then when I moved to HubSpot, yeah, it came across the actual term. But there I was working more on like long-term projects. So specifically focusing on how we can increase our market share in our core markets outside of the United States. And then all of the projects that I were working on had like a three, at least a three-year ROI. So quite different in terms of like the skill set. Well, I mean, there's a lot of complimentary, but still quite different. And then yeah, now I'm at Air Wellics, working revenue operations. I really like the fact that it's quite dynamic. So you know that there's that strategic component where I'm working more on those long-term projects, but there is still definitely, you know, the more operational part of it. Meaning like, you know, that immediate impact which I quite like. So yeah, that's kind of my journey to RevOps and specifically RevOps at Air Wellics. - I think it's interesting that someone recognized, you know, your keen insight and interests in process improvement, especially coming from a frontline role, where, you know, you are interacting with prospects and customers. And the fact that, you know, you're not necessarily thinking about how do I position my talk track or handle this objection and that objection. You're really thinking through the mechanics of a pipeline. And to me, that's a clear cut signal to potentially you are cut out for operations. And I've had many yes come on for this show and share a similar story. So thank you for that. Now, you're in regional RevOps, which makes me think that there is some sort of global RevOps. And I've been in that position myself at Google. I was at P&A supporting Amia, APAC and Americas. Now there were some global shared service or shared practices. But at the end of the day, there were also some regional nuances. So I'm curious about the impetus for creating Amia RevOps and what that looks like for you coming into that role. - Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so we've got the global revenue operations team. Most of, they actually spread out, but I would say most of them are based in APAC because our company was originally found in Australia and currently HQ'd in Singapore. And basically their responsibility is, you know, building projects across N2MIA and enterprise that will touch all regions. And, you know, maybe they'll reach out to me when they want to know specifically some nuances for Amia, how they need to adapt it for that region. But really, I would say they kind of have a top down approach when it comes to that. It's like, they have an idea of how we can create consistency in terms of tracking or in terms of even definitions globally, but we can compare apples with apples. And then basically how we roll that out, yeah, across regions. And then for myself, I would say like, it's a lot more on the grounds, you know, like that's kind of how they define it. Even when I was interviewing it, it's like you are going to be the on-the-ground person, somebody that the Rev Reps can, you know, turn to whenever they have like questions or anything that they need help with. Same with like, you know, the commercial leaders is like, how can, you know, there have somebody that's always also thinking about Amia's best-minded interest. I think that's, you know, quite important. It is like somebody who's going to be an advocate for RevOps and Amia in terms of, you know, basically pushing projects in the way that would also, you know, benefit us. So yeah, there's that component of working closely with global revenue operations for any projects that they're rolling out and just making sure that they're aware of the regional nuances. But then also there's a huge amount of autonomy that, you know, Amia can basically go for themselves in terms of like new tooling, you know, that might have like some data that has a better coverage in Amia than, you know, other tools, for example, or even just like small features, you know, like, for example, SMS is not something that's as big in terms of going out and prospecting and outbounding whereas it is in other regions. So how can we basically use the tools that are most beneficial to us in order to do our work? So I think about, obviously, going to market in different areas is different. You mentioned SMS in some countries, you know, emailing, you know, without having explicit consent is a no-no, right, in different parts of Europe as well. I'm also thinking about data sets, you know, when you're working with different partners to grab a data, you know, no one has a truly perfect global data set. I'm curious, Amia, you know, what you're using to help, you know, enrich not only your demographics, but also the personal information, the professional information that you need for your sales teams. - Yep, yeah. So we do have those global tools, definitely, that we use. We tend to notice that those global enrichment tools tend to work well for enterprise because naturally, you know, an enterprise customer or an enterprise company that we're looking to target is bigger, so there'll be more information in terms of the decision-makers that we're looking to outbound or get a hold of. Whereas when it comes to SME, I think that's where, you know, those longer-tail smaller companies, that's where having more of like a local data enrichment tool is really helpful. And so that's, we use Cognism as one of our main, like enrichment, contact enrichment tools, and that also feeds into, you know, all of like the other field mapping in terms of industry enrichment, all of these kinds of things, because we've noticed that it works quite, it's got better coverage and some other tools that we use specifically for Europe. - So in Europe, you know, when you imagined before, you were hired. - Mm-hmm. - You're a Seattle, I was probably thinking, I have ops, but, you know, they're all the way. - Yeah. - And they're in Australia, they're in Singapore. I'm curious about when you first came in, you know, you have to develop, you know, that human aspect of relationship building, building, maybe building trust for the first time, because they're not quite sure how to work with you because it's a new role. I'm curious about, you know, what were the things that were most important to your stakeholders, and how did you go after it, you know, going into the role? - Yeah, absolutely. I think there was two main things. The first one was centralizing some of the BAU work at the end of quarter for one person, which was, you know, kind of having like a full owner and making sure that those processes were kind of made more efficiently. Right now, you know, there's like a couple of elements that I take care of at the end of every quarter and before it was kind of spread across different people. And then, you know, well knowing that, you know, there was, they were looking for somebody to eventually be their owner. So it meant in terms of like improving it, making it faster because they weren't like the sole owner that there wasn't as much as an incentive. So that was actually one of the first things, was kind of just learning, you know, how the processes are being done today and how can we create a V1, V2, V3, V4, so that we actually make that process a lot shorter. And then the other thing was actually building very close relationship with the commercial leaders to basically give them insights in terms of their teams. That's something I think that, you know, when I came in was laughing quite a bit. There was, you know, a lot of people building like ad hoc self-source reports here and there, but, you know, people that didn't necessarily, you know, had built self-source reports before. So kind of having someone who, you know, truly delved into like all of the data that we have and better understanding how we can truly, you know, basically have one centralized report that the head of sales, as well as the director of sales and like the AE managers can look at was something that I hope to bring in. - So it's something small, but just for clarity also, BAU is business as usual, that's what I'm guessing. The sales first reports is something that's really interesting because, you know, I had to build out a European office in London as started by work that. And everything before then was in the USA and Canada. So when we built out, when we hired a bunch of European team members, I remember they always complained to me about like, I always had to filter these reports just for my team, right? Just that extra step makes me feel like we're not loved or we're not supported. And I just remember thinking like, what a small thing, but actually I met the world to these stakeholders, right? So building out very similar reports, but just for the European region, so that when they do have a conversation with the global, you know, they're ready to plug and play, they don't have to take that extra step just to get to what they want. I'm curious if you've seen something similar. - Yeah, definitely. And I think it's funny because I think, I kind of took that for granted actually when I came in, because you know, I was like, okay, 1,500 employees, like you guys have your thing sorted. And then sometimes I would just like build a report, you know, send it to like one of the leaders. And they're like, oh wow, this is actually the first time, you know, that I've seen something like this. Like this is super insightful. Meanwhile, I thought they had been looking at this kind of stuff like basically on a week by week basis. And so I found that especially joining, like you don't always necessarily, like you can take for granted what people like have visibility on and don't. So I think that was something like, you know, that first time, for example, when I sent out that report on like opportunities and where the sources of those opportunities came from. It's like, it kind of made me realize, okay, there's actually so much more that I can build on this that would be beneficial to you. Like I was almost thinking five steps ahead when I need to come back to the foundations. So, you know, really having that close knit like relationship with those leaders, but then truly understanding like how they work day to day was extremely helpful in that sense and kind of, yeah, you know, helping them out with that. And then I completely get you on like the reporting side as well, like building something that's, you know, very specific to that region or to that leader. What I've found is I quite like to do more of like the teaching somebody to also be self-sufficient. And because I found that a lot of leaders, especially like in a scale up or startup, like they like to be able to dig into things themselves because, you know, with a big team and only like one rev-ups person, there isn't always like, you know, if they need a piece of information today, like if there's other priorities, like sometimes, you know, there's a bit of like a priority list that they have to go through. So, and I found that especially within our company, like leaders are very willing to, you know, be taught so that they can then dig into things at least at a high level themselves. So that's something that I always preach, you know, whether it's working with sales reps or working with leaders is like, I will not just give them the deliverable, but also talk through my approach or talk through my logic behind it. So that even if it's like a small thing, you know, like if you send them an pipeline opportunity report where you're just looking at the count of opportunity, but then they also want to see the actual value of it. Like, okay, you just go here, you toggle there and then you'll be able to see it by count. And then you can also see it by dollar value. Oh, and if you want to then see the breakdown by rep, all you need to do is, you know, just change it here. And then you click on like this looking chart, like the stat column chart, and then you'll also be able to see that breakdown by rep. So I think even those like high level kind of pieces of information in terms of, you know, even thinking about, I think sometimes, you know, when I build out dashboards, we'll talk a lot through, okay, but what is it that you actually want to see, you know, are you trying to look at the timeline based on what was created or are you more looking at this in terms of forecasting of opportunities, like what's about to close? Because, yeah, I think especially for, you know, maybe newer sales manager, who it might be like their first management role, sometimes you need that like conversation, which also helps them think, you know, actually what is truly the data that I want to see. So I thought that's great as well. Like always working with like, you know, slightly smaller team that you get to be very close to the sales reps and to the leaders. And you get to spend more time into like, you know, going into like deep on that level. So talking about digging deep a little bit, there's always this balance between, you know, those quantitative and those qualitative insights. With your position, you probably have the opportunity to get to know, you know, your stakeholders fairly well. You get to know the deals that they're working on in the pipeline. I'm curious about, you know, when there's so much focus on the quantitative, how do you make sure that you balance those qualitative insights to, you know, tell a story, to find the root cause of real issues? You know, what's your thinking around that balance? - Yeah. To be honest, when I think about the kind of balance between quantitative and qualitative, I often think about that when we're looking to build out a new process, and where essentially we're looking to change, you know, some like a behavior, and it's easy to, you know, look at a report and say, you know, this is the change that we need to make. But then the qualitative piece helps in like, understanding like, is this truly going to be effective? Like, if I'm putting myself in the sales rep shoes, like, will I follow this process? Or will I just end up going through workarounds? And then that means at the end, like, the data that we're trying to get isn't actually going to be helpful because it's not actually beneficial to reps like the process that we put together. So usually that's when I try to like, to, you know, think more about the qualitative context is always like, okay, the data's saying one thing, and that's extremely helpful. But then also like, you know, when we're thinking about behaviors, what are the true behaviors that we want reps to adopt? And then how realistically are we going to make them to adopt that? And I think again, with, you know, a more like a smaller and accessible team, it's really helpful in that way, because like, A or like a director will know how each individual, one of their reps works, they'll know the attitude of their reps, they'll know the ones that, you know, are maybe going to find a workaround. And so maybe we should actually speak with them about, you know, what would be more beneficial in terms of, you know, a process that we have, that we're looking to build, that would not take you too much time. So yeah, when I'm thinking about the qualitative qualitative, I think it's a lot about like building those processes to see if it's actually going to be efficient. And then also I think just like context in the back end, you know, like as a growing business, there's, you're not going to get everything right the first time, you know, whether that's target setting, whether that's, you know, putting an incentive together, there's like a lot of iterations that come through it. So sometimes, you know, the data might look one way, but you kind of need to understand like why that is. And so I think that's where the qualitative piece truly helps in understanding, okay, is it more of like actually a issue with the rep or is it more of like, you know, but ecosystem like a larger thing than the rep and it just so happens that their outcomes are the ones that are affected by it. So yeah, I think especially maybe not as pertinent to like a very big company that has tons of processes and that, you know, this has been trialled and like proved dozens of times. But I think when you're always iterating on things, you really need to balance the two. Otherwise, just the quantitative could give you a bit of a skewed story. - So I'm curious, you know, you've been in the role now and you've had the opportunity to drive improvements for Amia, you know, where's the business today versus or you know, your stakeholders today or versus where they were prior to you coming in. I'm curious about like data and insights that are receiving the processes that the sales teams have used to, you know, objectively, you know, have some productivity gains of curious, you know, what type of before and after are we looking at? - Yeah, so one of the key things, actually one of my OKRs that I've done when joining is building out territories or like named account lists. So basically, how can we put, you know, a good amount of companies that reps could basically build pipeline from in front of them so that they could go hit the ground running and not have to spend as much time prospecting. So, you know, that's one of the big things that I came in for is actually like operationalizing how we release those territories, how we build those territories, how we release them and then how we get reps to actually, you know, penetrate those territories. So that's one thing. Then also like our kind of weekly metrics call, you know, how do we first want to create like a single structure so that week by week we're able to track specific metrics and we're able to, you know, basically compare this versus our model and see how we're doing if we're doing well or not, but then also specific spotlight during those metrics. So, you know, if I want to delve deeper into like a specific team or into a specific topic that the leadership is kind of wondering about, we can go through that spotlight and talk about it with all of the leaders in the room. Like that's something that we didn't have like on an operational basis on like weekly before I joined. So now again, something that, because I own it and because it's something that I will be evaluated on like how am I helping put those conversations together? How am I helping, you know, spark those moments of insights and conversations for the leadership team? Those are like some things that I've helped bring forward. Yeah, during my time at AirWorlds. - So the territory is interesting because I always think of this two by two from serious decisions called the relative productivity matrix and they're on one axis to selling. So what are your activities? Selling activity versus non-selling activities. And then on the other axis is direct versus indirect, right? So if you're sifting through the CRM to find accounts or prospects to sell to, yes, that's the selling activity, but it's indirect, right? You're not necessarily engaging with a prospect. So by shifting the amount of time that they were spending on those activities towards, well, now I know who to target, I'm gonna just start building out my target contacts and reaching out to them with cadences or sequences. That's gonna hopefully pocket a bunch of time against, multiply against the number of reps. So I find that to be a huge unlock. The second thing you said, I think is really important, which is, you know, let's shift the quality of the conversation to a higher gear before you might've been operating on intuition or, you know, casual updates, but now it's not casual, right? You have actual data to look at that drives a discussion to understand what's working and what's not. And I find that hugely, hugely beneficial for any organization, not just in sales, but kudos to you and your team. Now, I always ask this for all of my guests. Last question to you, which is, can you think of a moment of change or impact that someone's had on you or that you've had on others that comes to mind? - Yeah. So it was actually right before I joined Airwalks. So when I was leaving HubSpot, I was interviewing and had offers from a couple of companies. So Airwalks as well as another one. The other one was a more bigger tech company, similar as similar role, but more specialized in like sales and commissions. And I was actually trying to make the decision of, you know, which one I should go for. I think the thing about Airwalks that excited me is that, you know, there was like a lot of potential selling growth, you know, I thought that the history and like the founding story so far of what they had in APEC was extremely impressive. But obviously it was a bit more like risky, I guess, in the sense that, you know, it's maybe not a known a name that's as well known in Europe in comparison to the other offer that I had. And I was speaking with a couple of my mentors about it. And one of my mentors said something that really resonated and she stopped me and she said, okay, Roxanne, it sounds like these two opportunities are really good opportunities, there's pros and cons to both. And it sounds like you're excited about both. Now that's great. Which one of these two opportunities do you think is most rare? Like which one is the one that you think is harder to come by again? And that actually really helped me making my decision because, you know, she even went on to say, you know, that other company, like they've been here for decades, they've, they're super well known, like they're still going to be here in 10 years, 20 years. And also like the impact that you're gonna have is probably not the same as, you know, something that you have at a place like air wallets. And that specific sentence, like which opportunity is more rare, actually I tend to use it like quite a lot now, like in terms of, you know, like when I make a decision about, you know, even like coming on this podcast, right? Like it's not every day that you get somebody to reach out to you and say, hey, do you want to join this podcast? I could easily, you know, just ignore the message and said like, no, like, you know, I'll just wait for the next one. But to me, this was like a rare opportunity getting to join this and I thought, okay, like, I need to jump on the rare opportunities 'cause they're not as frequent as the other ones. So yeah, I think also it pertains to a lot of things and like, you know, not just necessarily career, but even when you're doing something personal for yourself, which one is more of the rare opportunity is something that I tend to remind myself a lot of. - Yeah, I really love that. Now for those who want to connect with you on LinkedIn, like how can folks find you? - Yeah, so you can connect with me on LinkedIn, Roxanne Taku, so R-O-X-A-Double-N-E, Taku T-A-K-U, feel free to send me a note, chat with me about anything. Yeah, I'm quite open to connecting with people on LinkedIn. - Excellent. Well, thanks for coming at Hunter Oxman. - Awesome. Thank you so much, Jeff.