If you're looking to maximize your fundraising efforts, DonorBox's online donation platform is designed to help you reach your fundraising goals with ease. Discover the world of simplified, seamless fundraising at donorbox.org. DonorBox, helping you help others. Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Speer, and along with me today is Mike Gourhouse from Inspiring Impact. Mike, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. So we're going to dig into a topic today that I think is super important for everyone, but also maybe one of the hardest-giving strategies in the nonprofit industry, and we're talking about planned giving, because yikes. That one, yeah, because it's not easy, right? It's not the bells and whistles. There's not bright, shiny objects to help with it. So we're going to dig into the importance of it and some strategies around it. I'm excited for this topic. Before we do that, though, Mike, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit to the audience and give us a little bit of background on your journey here in the nonprofit space? Sure. Great. My name is Mike Gourhouse, and I grown up in the nonprofit space. So my journey started as a high school student. I'm from Michigan, and I was part of a youth grant-making council at my local community foundation for four years, getting exposed to local needs in my community, making philanthropic decisions. It was a really meaningful experience that launched my interest in the nonprofit sector. I worked in philanthropy at a regional association of grant makers, the Council on Michigan Foundations, and then I actually was brought back to run my hometown community foundation, the same place that I was a youth grant maker, which was on a phenomenal experience and did that for 10 years, which is where planned giving became such a huge passion for me. So did that for a decade and now run a nonprofit philanthropic consulting company. Very cool. I want to start us off, as we were prepping for this call, you made a statement that I think every one of us can agree with, but I would love to start our conversation by having you elaborate on this. I think what I heard you say is delayed gratification stinks. Yeah. That is not the phrase. It's not the phrase. Exactly right. You heard it right. Yeah. Okay. That is the phrase, and it's true for all areas of our lives, right, as humans, delayed gratification. We're not wired for that, right? We'd like to get a response pretty quickly. If you do something, you like to be affirmed pretty quickly. If you're accepting on the gray line, you want to find out if you're over the line, but as it comes to fundraising, you put all this effort in and you make a request and it asks, and we all just want to know. And this, in fact, I think one of the reasons planned giving is so hard. So this, in the planned giving world, delayed gratification plays out in two very specific ways. One, if you ask one of your supporters to consider including you in their estate plans, they don't have to answer in any sort of timeframe, right? This is not age. We're going to build a building in two years. We need an answer soon. This is not a sponsor of the events, the events happening in two months. There's actually no timeline short of the end of their lifetime that they have to make that decision. So you put the work in, you make an ask, and you don't know if you're ever going to get an answer or when you might get that answer. So that's hard for us as professionals to not know if we'll ever get a response to that ask. The second part where delayed gratification comes into play is even if that person turns around and calls you three days later and says, "We talked about it and we're going to include the organization and our estate plans." Great. Now you know that you won't receive the funds for likely 20, 30, 40 years, depending on how it all plays out. So then your organization is happy that you got the commitment, but you won't see those dollars in fact for a long time. In fact, probably no one on your board is going to be around when it happens. If the decent chance that no one on your staff is going to be around when it happens, and so that's the delayed gratification piece that plays out in two ways related to plan giving that I think really drives so many of us to not do this work because we won't be there to see that come to fruition. I think we need to push through that and we need to fight that human instinct. And the reason why I think we need to do that is if you're listening to this, I'd ask you to pause and think for a second, has your organization ever received a request or an estate gift that you didn't know was coming? And if you think about that, what was the feeling that you guys, your organization had when that happened? I'm sure you were on cloud nine where we do what these resources, cool story and all this kind of stuff. Absolutely. Play that out 20 years, 30 years, 40 years down the road. If you do plan giving work well now, the future you in your role will be experiencing that much more frequently and think about what the organization can do to meet their mission in that environment. So my point is if you don't start doing it, you'll never actually experience the benefits of that down the road. So yes, delay gratification stinks, but I think pushed through it. You still need to make these requests and these invitations to people that consider including you in their estate plans. And it's going to be worth it. For your mission long term, it will be worth it. Okay. So I would agree, absolutely, but I'm going to play devil's advocate for just one second stay, you know, because I know we have a lot of folks listening to the podcast who are executive directors or heads of development, those types of roles. And they're going, yeah, but I need the money now, right? I got goals to me and I have limited staff and I have, you know, 17 other initiatives that I'm supposed to be focused on. Where would one even start to create a planned giving strategy or how do we even carve out time for that? What does that look like? Yeah. This is very real, right? You have to meet your budget this year and you need to hit those goals in that event. You need to meet that campaign. And so you're right. When it comes down to your loyal and committed donor partners, there's a long list of things you want to ask them for it. And planned giving never makes the top of that list because of this believe gratification piece. So my big thing for people is to say, okay, so how many times in the last year? Okay. We're in August. We're in August. So so far in the first seven months of the year, how many times have you invited a conversation with a supporter around a potential planned gift or invite them to consider including your organization in their estate plan? If your answer is zero, we don't need to set a high bar, right? The bar does not need to be that high. You do not need to go out and hire a planned giving staff member who's putting all their time and energy at this, right? I would set a bar for you that says, what does it look like for you to do one a quarter? One every three months. That's four for the year, that's four for the year, right? That feels very doable. So this is the thing, make it the vast majority of non-profit fundraising staff. If they're, if I asked them, it's a dark Zoom with no video, they would say, I, the number is probably zero or one. The number of times they've actually asked a supporter to include the organization. So my thing is, this is not going to take over your annual fundraising. This is not going to take over your capital campaign. I'm talking about sliding it in once every three months to a conversation because if you play that out, especially if you've got maybe one or two staff that are arguing that, if everyone does one a quarter, maybe now we're at eight, maybe we're at 10 or 12. You don't need to ask your supporters this question every year, that's the other advantage you have. I mean, in your case, you actually are asking people every year, maybe you get them off of your commitment, but you're actually asking them pretty frequently. Yeah. You have a close donor partner. You ask them about this as they get once. You aren't going to bring it up again for five, six, eight years. Hopefully if the conversation keeps going, but you don't need to make that ask very often, which makes it easier to only have to do for a year and you start to add up the number of people that fit into this. I would also say that your universe of people that you are having this conversation with is not your biggest universe. So at the end of the day, my experience and I should just quickly pause and get people some context. I said that my time at the key foundation in Holland, Michigan was where I cut my teeth on plan giving. We did an estate plan giving campaign in which our goal was to get a hundred new estate gift commitments in a three year period of time. We met that goal and over those three years, I asked just shy of 200 individuals and couples to include the foundation in their estate plan. So just if you do the quick math, I was averaging more than one ask per week, first three years to get there. I have done a lot of conversation around Thanksgiving, but my point, that's a big, there's a volume that has added up that kind of let's we give confidence to this, but when I'm then translating down to make it easier for people is you don't need to. This does not need to be rocket science being complicated, right? So all of those conversations, not once did I mention the charitable or major trust or charitable trust, not once did I mention a charitable gift annuity, all this kind of complex stuff that's out there, that's not what you need to be doing. Now, if you're a big university, you've added my body, whatever else, fine, but that's not most of us, right? At the end of the day, what you need to be doing is taking your closest supporters, your longest supporters, the folks that have been on your board have been giving for two decades that come to everything, they care about your mission. They probably seen you almost like family, right? You're that that won't be care about you. What you need to do is to say, hey, you have been supporting this mission for so long, you've been in this mission. Have you ever thought about including this mission in your estate plans? Did you ask them that? That's it. You can have an hour-long meeting. You could spend 15 minutes on everything else you would talk to them about, and at the very end, you can just say, have you ever thought about that? We have other close supporters who have included us in their estate plans, and they're really excited about the impact they're going to be able to make beyond their lifetimes. Have you ever considered doing something similar? What will happen is that the individual will respond by either saying that the best index there will be like, you know what, we have, and we don't have you included. Then you're like, great. This is awesome. It wasn't wonderful. Yeah. Some will say, we haven't thought about it, but we will. We'll consider that. Then some will just say, people awkward and, well, we don't really have a plan for that, and not really our thing. Okay. You will not lose. I can't promise, but I can almost promise that you are not going to scare away your close donor who was scared about you for two generations and been on your board and all this. They're not going to run away and never cut you a check again, because you've simply asked the question if they had ever considered including the organization and their estate plan. So, we're more scared on the staff side, frankly, than individuals are on the other side. I've never been punched. I've never been physically harmed. I've never lost a donor. So, all those things that we're so worried about, they don't happen. So, my encouragement is do all your normal stuff, and if you can successfully make one invitation a quarter for your entire career, I bet your organization will yield significant results from a 10 to 15-minute investment in a conversation once a quarter. So, that kind of be my response. You don't need to be transformative with hundreds of these things. You just need to be actively playing the seat, and then I will say some people who are listening are going to say, "Well, we put it in our newsletter." Nope. It doesn't count. I'm just sorry. It doesn't count. That is not how you get planned gifts. It's good to keep it alive. It's great to tell stories in your newsletters of individuals who have included you in their estate plans or if you receive a gift. Those are great things. That does not count towards the floor. You need to sit down and look someone in the eyes and have that conversation. This is a very meaningful conversation for an individual. This is not a central postcard. Correct. That's not how you do this. If you think about it, that death of conversation deserves an invitation when you're looking someone in the eye. So, don't let the other stuff be here. Well, we've got a plan. We put it out there. We sent some postcards. Nope. You've got to make some individual tasks. Elevate your fundraising strategy effortlessly with DonorBox, the online fundraising platform that streamlines your operations, amplifies donations, and delivers a user-friendly experience for your supporters. Design captivating donation forms, accept digital wallet payments, seamlessly monitor donations, and automate receipt generation. Joining is a breeze with no setup or monthly fees. From customizable donation forms and four times faster, ultra-swift checkout to seamless in-person giving with DonorBox Live kiosk, DonorBox makes giving simple and fast for your donors. Visit donorbox.org and unlock your full fundraising potential today. I recently, maybe within the last four or five months or so, received an email from an organization that I'm a long-time supporter of because they were going to be hosting a, like, an estate planning workshop. Ultimately, the goal of which is to get people to include this organization in there. They had a financial planner that was coming in to talk about some things to consider or how to start that process. How do you feel about that? Is that personal enough? Or is that maybe a little too much at this point if you're just starting the conversations? There's two schools I thought of. I've been a part of a number of these kind of seminars and workshops where you invite people in and if you have a estate planning attorney or a financial advisor, that can be really helpful, particularly for people's first wills. That's often the age demographic that you think about that, "Hey, you're starting to think about this for the first time. Here's some things to think about. Maybe here's some people you can work with." I think some individuals that have found that very helpful just look, "Oh, this is a resource for me as I think about this huge thing that I need to do with my life. I don't really want to talk about it to think about." Of course, if you're being hosted by a nonprofit, the odds that you're going to include them, go up. They make their pitch. I don't dislike that. I think that works for some organization. I think it's worth people considering. Even that takes more work than what I'm suggesting most listeners need to do. Even that takes pulling it together, inviting people to do the come out. This is even simpler than that. That's good. I'd say that's even like level three or level four. I'm talking level one here. It is literally having the words come out of your mouth four times a year. Would you ever consider including our organization and our mission in your estate plan? Hard pause. You don't need to do that. Sure. I do like those. I've been a part of them. I think they do actually work. I think it can be helpful. I like this other as many more personal touch points. That is almost a little transactional. You're lending value to them as they think about their world. This is a little bit more emotional. It's a little bit more, there's some depth to this conversation that you're doing one on one that you probably wouldn't do in a group. That'd be my sense on that. One thing that I would encourage folks that I've learned on this is, when you have that conversation and you make that invitation, what I'm hoping people maybe listen and do, if the donor turns around and says, "Well, if we did, what would you do with the resources?" That's a very fair question. My second key piece of advice for people is have a plan or a policy for what you do with estate gifts. Just have a plan. If the estate gift comes in, what are we going to do with it? There's a wide range of ways to think about it. Some people, some organizations say, "Well, we're going to put it in an endowment." It's a one-time gift. It's not going to come again. We don't want to use the annual operation. We're going to put it in a long-term sustainable endowment. Some say we're going to put it in an operating reserve. Maybe not a permanent endowment, but we're going to put it in our savings account and use it for a rainy day. Some do a hybrid, they say, "We're going to take 25 percent of it and put it in our operations." And then 75 percent of it versus some sort of rainy day or a special project or whatever it may be. What I encourage folks' view is have some sort of plan. One, it's helpful for your organization to know when that moment comes. But two, if you're going to invite a donor into considering this, it's a very fair question to ask what happened if they did it, then you need an answer. If your answer is, "I don't know," well, that's not a very compelling gift. That's not the way we want to raise anything else. So part of it is then having an answer that says, "Well, when we've received and doubt gifts in the past, we've used them for special initiatives or launching a new initiative," or "We use it to build up our endowment," or whatever your policy is. And if you have an example or two, that's even better. If you can say, "We received a gift four years ago," it was a surprise, and that allowed us to open that new site that is now a thriving site for our mission, or that allowed us to pilot a new program that we did this, or because of three of these gifts in the last decade, we have an endowment now that's worth half a million dollars, and it's generating ongoing revenue for us. Whatever it may be, just be prepared to answer that question, because it will be a very fair question for someone to ask. Now the other thing we all know is that the state gifts can be designated just like during life gifts, right? So during life, someone could say, "I want to suggest this program, or just this thing." They just could be the same. So if you had a donor that didn't, let's just say your policy was that it went into a long-term endowment, but this donor didn't like endowment. That wasn't their cup of tea. They can easily say, "This gift that's going to come in our state plan is to be used for a special initiative, for a special project, and we'd like it to be used within five years of you receiving the gift." That's great. The goal here is, "Why are we doing this?" So donors love supporting our mission. We believe that. We're not trying to hug anybody, right? This is not like trying to scan anybody. People like supporting the missions that we're working on. If they like supporting it during their lifetimes, I'd make a strong case they're going to love supporting it beyond their lifetime. You might think it's not cheesy to say that, but let me tell you this. This isn't true for everyone, but there are a lot of people who end up passing away with more resources than they thought they were ever going to have. So what a prolific time to share some of those resources that they've worked hard to earn or being fortunate to invest well or whatever it may be with mission and causes they care about. Because at the end of your lifetime, there's no more saving for the future. There's no more, I need to make sure I have enough resources for helping to have an end of my lifetime, but there's no more helping saving for a rainy day. This is the moment where people can actually be quite generous. For most people, the largest gift they make in their lifetime is in their standpoint. So why wouldn't you want to be a part of that conversation? If that's when they're thinking transformational, I think you want your mission to be at the table in the conversations for that, but it isn't going to go somewhere else. If you think no one's asking for this, I'm just going to tell you. Some people are, not many, but some are, and those that are getting a much larger share of these, if you're not asking, you're unlikely to get them. That's a great point, because I do think it's one that maybe not as many people are going after. Well, but that money has to go somewhere. It has to go somewhere. So better to help folks direct it to things they're passionate about as a service to them. I think that's a great call out. I think that's another one. So to build on your point there, Megan, so this is funny. But so when you go ask a donor for a gift, they're in their lifetime, and you ask for a $25,000 a significant gift to a care. They have a lot of things they could do with that $25,000, right? They could spend it. They could save it. They could spend it on kids or grandkids or whatever it is, there's lots of options. When you get to the end of your lifetime, there are three places that your money can go. One is the government, and that's not usually what most people choose. Two is family or friends, kind of other people, or three is charity. That's it. There's three options, one of which is not most people's favorite. So you're down to two. Now, the family is a default option for most people, but what we forget is that there are a lot of people that are interested in leaving some resources to charity without disinheriting their children. Yeah. So if you have three kids, they could leave 30% of their estate, each of their three kids, and still have 10% left for charity. There are some people, this is a really cool concept that you may be familiar with, but during my time with all these families about this, you hear so many different philosophies. There are some families that think about charity as another child. So if they had three children, they actually call it a child called charity, right? So instead of dividing their estate three ways, they divide it four ways, so 25% for each of their children, and then 25% for charity as an adopted child, if you will, or a child called community. These concepts are in people's minds, right? This is happening. So to build on your point, these dollars, I think, are going somewhere, and there's some portion going on to charitable organizations, and we know from our day-to-day fundraising that you don't receive a gift as you don't ask, that premise is true for estate giving as well. So all the reasons that you have not, they can ask for a plan gift, are all the same reasons the charities around the corner are asking, and your other charities doing work and your field aren't asking, so it's a fairly open market, in my experience. So why not be a part of it? Yeah. So there's another phrase that you used, again, as we were prepping for today's conversation that I thought was really interesting, might ruffle a couple feathers, but that's okay, we're going to let it go. Go for it. Go for it. Go for it. Go for it. Go for it. Go for it. Go for it. And that was to avoid advisers around this topic. Oh, yeah. Did I hear this correctly? I picked up some phrases, Mike, and some of them were interesting. That was one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I said don't worry about professional advisers. Yeah. There we go. Yeah, there we go. So that's just me probably trying to wrap up some feathers up a little bit. What I mean by that when I say that is, I think, as folks in the nonprofit world, think that they have to work with three professional advisers, so estate money attorneys or financial planners or CPAs, to have these conversations around planned gifts. And my encouraging to people is, you don't have to. They can be great partners. I'm not saying that you shouldn't. I'm just saying don't worry about it, right? If that is stopping you from having this conversation, don't let it because the individual is going to make their own choice. Their estate planning attorney has to help write into their plan, but the estate planning attorney is not telling them what to do with their resources beyond their lifetime. The individual is making that choice. So you can have this conversation directly with the individual. You don't have to have their financial planner in the room or their CPA or estate planning attorney in the room. But I think people, I've heard people get caught up on that, which is why I bring up the phrase. People think they have to have all those folks involved in the housing. No, you don't. Look, if they're going to do a real complex transaction, take some property donated into a charitable lead trust, do all that. Yeah, then bring those other folks in the room. You aren't the one driving them. That's not your job. I will tell you of the 100 new estate units commitments that we got in this three years as part of this campaign, not one of them was that kind of technical and complicated. What they are is a conversation around would you consider, including, in this case, the community in our community, in your estate plan, would you want to give to this, ensure this community thrives well beyond your lifetime? Look, if they answer yes to that question, they will work out the details with their estate planning attorneys, CPA's, and financial advisors. What the hump is that you're getting over is the next time they meet with those folks, which might be every year, it might not be for five years. How many of us start to watch estate planning attorneys every year, right? That's not very common. No. What happened is the next time they meet with those advisors, and the advisors say, "Let's go out your plan. Let's look at it." "Hey, you've got some charities in here. Do you want to keep those?" Stuff the right ones. What they're going to remember is the conversation they have with you, where you invited them into this. They're going to say, "Actually, no, I really would like to include this other organization in the plan." The attorney says, "Great. Let's write it in." Your job is to invite people to consider this. They will work with their advisors to make any sort of that kind of stuff happen. That's why I say don't worry about professional advisors. If you have a program that engages professional advisors as an ally through your organization mission, that's great. That's a good thing. That's a level three or four thing. I just encourage you both to get to level one and level two, because if everything to do with plan giving, my experience is it's the worries about level three and level four and level five that stop people from doing level one and level two activities. I'm going to miss to have more non-profit folks just feel willing to do level one and level two. Anyways, if you're a professional advisor listening to this, I'm not discounting your role in this. I'm just encouraging more non-profit leaders to at least bring up the conversation directly with folks that they know care about their mission. That will lead us to help back to you eventually and it cuts you out. I just don't think we need to wait for them to come in the room to have this conversation. That's a really good point. With all of this, and I really love the idea, because it's true about everything in life, you're never going to get to level three, four, and five if you don't start on level one. We can't dive in. At the time that we are recording this, we are in full-fledged Olympic mode, right? The Olympic athletes did not just walk onto the field and go be the fastest man in the world, right? These are things you've got to work on and it's true in this as well. I appreciate that call out, but we very much live right now in a culture, especially in the non-profit culture, where everything has to be measured. We've got data for everything, we've got all these KPIs that we're trying to hit. When it comes to outside of, I love the suggestion of just one conversation per quarter, because that is an easily trackable thing. Did I do this? Yes or no? Straight forward. Are there other goals or KPIs or metrics, or how do we keep track of all of this to make sure that it's still like part of the planet that we're succeeding in it? Yes. I'm a math major, loves numbers and data, and so when we started to think about doing in this big campaign, when I was at the Community Foundation, this question made a drove me nuts, because I was sitting here going, "How in the world are we going to do a clinical campaign on a state guess," which I couldn't ask a thousand people, and they don't have to ever tell me ever if they're making the gift. We might not find out for a decade. How am I going to measure whether we're doing anything? The creative solution we came up with, which others don't have to do, but I'll share it in case it sticks with others. Actually, I went out and asked the donor if they would be willing to give $10,000 for every new state gift commitment that we were able to get as a part of this campaign, why did the individual or couple signed a commitment form? We didn't just see their trust, we didn't just see all of that, but then they signed a commitment form saying, "Yes, we've included the foundation in our state plan." For me, I did that for two reasons. One, it then allowed me when I made this invitation to an individual or a couple, asked them to include us in their plans. I could say, "If you tell us, if you make that commitment, we actually get $10,000." People left out. For the individual, it was a little incentive, but we're much more the incentive because these are big gifts. People aren't getting that incentivized by $10,000. What they were incentivized to do was tell me, "They may have gone back and made the decision and even updated their plan and not told the organization." In this case, the only way we got the $10,000 was that they actually signed a commitment form. I had a three-year period to do it. That meant that they at least had to tell me, "We're doing three years." Then I got any answer one way or the other. What ended up happening was that idea was so well received. We actually had two donors that made that matching commitment. We were receiving $20,000 for every new estate commitment that we had up to $100. It was unbelievable and it was just totally crazy. That little match allowed us to then actually get time horizon answers. We got answers from folks. We got commitments and it allowed us to track our progress. We had a little, we tracked your practice to the hundreds. Every month we put out there, how far we were, new ones that got made. We took a little area of our community and every time somebody made it, we put a brick on this little path with their name on it if they're willing to let it have them named. We really rallied our community around this idea. It was very visual. We could track it. That's not what's going to happen all of the time. That was a moment with a campaign where we did three years. The concept is still there. I'm an organization out there listening to this. You could think about a similar concept. If you decided you wanted that you believe, you believed my picture that you should be asking more people to include your organization and their estate plan. You've had a nice plan for what you do with those dollars. You could maybe go to one of your most generous supporters. They bought into that vision as well. They could do something similar, not necessarily have to be in the time horizon. You could say we have a donor who's generously agreed to give us $5,000 for every new estate gift commitment that we received. It's an open-ended thing, but they believe so strongly that this mission is going to be important for the long-term, not just today, but tomorrow and long in this future, that they wanted to help us have these conversations. You could even joke a little bit as a staff member, so I did this with a few couples. They got a little squirmy about asking them about an estate gift. I could say, "Hey, I've got two million bucks sitting out here that I got on a ladder. You're right, so you make it a little fun." Anyway, that could be something. If you have someone who's really bought into this, and if you think about this, if you're having to answer your honesty to me right now, that you're only making zero or one asks a year right now, then you went to a donor and said, "Would you be willing to get $5,000 for every new commitment that we've got?" They say, "Well, how much am I going to be in for?" Well, you could tell them, "Well, we're getting zero to one right now, so maybe the best case in areas, we're getting four or five commitments a year, so that person's going to be putting in 20 to 25,000." That's not a huge commitment on their part, but think about what that does for you. It gives you a little incentive to go out and make that ask. It gives you another reason to bring it up with that donor, that one that you're scared about because you just asked them for an annual gift and a sponsorship and a campaign gift. You could say, "Can I just, you've been so close to us, can I just add one more thing? We actually have this cool thing going right now that we get $5,000 for every new commitment that we receive to." So anyway, that's the long answer to your question, but that little bit of a match in the incentive I found was enough, it helped me scratch the itch of being able to track it, want to buy it, that we made progress, and so we were able to get to 100 and everyone's happy. That's just one idea. There may be other things that you can track. But I do want to acknowledge that the crux of your question is still a dilemma because delayed gratification stinks. The crux of your question is still there. It is one of the harder things to track the value on because it's such long-term payback. So I want to acknowledge that, but if your board and your leadership is bought into a long-term vision, I'd hope that you could carve out 2% of your time a year. I don't think it's going to take over half day a week. I think this is quite minor, actually. That's great. Mike, thank you so much. This has been really interesting and not a conversation that we've had on the podcast before. Exciting to dig into that specifically, so thank you for that. If somebody wanted to follow up with you, if they had more questions on planned giving and estates and all of those pieces, how can they find you? What's the best way to reach out? Yeah. So the best program has a website. It's inspiringimpact.com. There's a dash between inspiring-impact.com. So if you go there, my email log is on there, but it's M, G-O-R-H-O-U-S-E, @inspiring-impact.com. So feel free to email. Reach out. Yeah, I love this stuff. I love talking to anybody about planned giving, and if it's just a little encouragement you need to get started, or if you just want to, listen to this and you just want to email me every quarter to say that you made one request, I'm cool with that because a lot of mission, it would be transformative for our sector. Every punish and professional made one request a quarter, so send me an email when you do it. Tell me how it goes. That's awesome. I love that. Mike, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciated the conversation, and I think it's going to be encouraging to a lot of our audience. Again, our guest has been Mike Gorehouse from Inspiring Impact. Thank you so much, Mike. We appreciate you being here today. Thanks for having me, Megan. My pleasure, guys. Having a great day, we will see you next time on the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] (gentle music)
