In this weeks podcast, Pastor Mike talks more about the importance of making disciples and how that is fueled by Christ’s authority, not our own, and how it must be central in all endeavors as a Church and as Christians.
Harvest Detroit West
Treasures in the Field - Matthew 28:18-20
(upbeat music) - Oh, good afternoon and welcome to Treasures in the Field. This is our midweek podcast review on our service from Sunday here at Harvard's Bible Church in Westland, Michigan. And I'm joined here by our preaching pastor, Pastor Mike. Good to have you. - Glad to be here, looking forward to the conversation. - Oh yeah, this has been, we missed a week, but hey, we're back. (laughing) We'll be back and excited to jump into the text. Jesus Great Commission, which is central to our purpose and mission as a church. So love this extra bonus time that we have to meditate on this rich instruction from the Lord. - Yeah, I enjoyed, I love this sermon. As you mentioned before, this is not the first time we've heard it and it still has different nuances, but it's still the same sermon and I think it's, has this powerful message, but for the, for the few who might have missed it, if you can give us a quick recap. - Yeah, absolutely. Coming into this fall season of ministry, it's a big season for our church. A lot of new ministries launching, people coming together after their summer break. And just to take a week to focus on our mission as a church, which comes straight from this text, Matthew 28, which is Jesus Great Commission for his church. Make disciples, make disciples of all nations, make disciples by baptizing them and teaching them. That's what we are to be about as a church now and always. And so it was a wonderful time just with our church, kind of coming together around this text and reorienting ourselves around those things that have to always be central and prioritized. - Yeah, like I said, I love the message. I think it's a blessing for us as church. I know it's a blessing for me as an individual, just to reorientate myself on what's first thing and the main thing, so that's awesome. So I've got a few questions here that hopefully it'll help unpack it for everyone. - Yeah, let's dive in. - Yeah, so as you were really unpacking this, I was thinking as you were telling us how we are to, we have been commissioned by God to do certain things. And many in the world, and as a matter of fact, it's funny 'cause I had this conversation at work today, but many would criticize us for spreading the gospel across the globe claiming that we are pushing our religion on people or that we're, I don't know, whatever they want to do, whatever the buzzword is, colonizers or whatever they want to say, but why is it important for us to know that this drive to spread the gospel is God's idea and not to man desire to conform other countries into our image? - Yeah, well, just jumping off one thing you said, spreading our religion around the world. If it is just our religion, we shouldn't. Nothing gives us the right to spread our religion, our ideas around the world. That would be quite proud of us, and there would be no point to it. But if it's God's religion, that he has revealed to us and brought to us through the grace of Jesus Christ. And if he has authority in all of heaven and earth, which he says so right here in verse 18, then we're not propagating our religion, our ideas. We are spreading the good news of the one who is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and the Savior of all the world. And so I think that would be the simple response to that kind of pushback is that if he is Lord over all the earth, if he is the Savior of all the earth, then why wouldn't we tell all the earth about him? Based on his authority and not our own agenda. But I think maybe that kind of pushback is a good reminder to us that it is the message of Christ and the word of God that we are spreading and not our own cultural ideals and American idiosyncrasies. This is a conversation that is had and should be had in missions often, is that even as we're spreading the message of Christ, are we also trying to export Americanisms and American ideas and values? Or are they Christ's ideas and values? And hopefully some of Christ's ideas and values have impacted some of the things that go on in America. Certainly there's a lot that goes on in America that hasn't been impacted by the word of God. And so separating those things out, I think is very important so that we can boldly say, it is the word of God, it is the gospel of Jesus that we're exporting, but we're not carrying along a bunch of extra baggage that really doesn't need to be exported into those countries around the world. - Yeah, I think that's paramount. That realized that if we believe the book that we claim to believe that the Bible and we believe as God's word, that's the authority that gives us to spread that. And hopefully that's the truth that we're spreading and that because we thought of it, 'cause trust me, there's plenty of stuff in the Bible. I'm like, no, I wouldn't have thought of that. And only a holy God could think of that. And I think it's just helpful for people to know that these are the words of God. And it doesn't matter if you're from Eastern culture or Western culture or wherever, it applies to you. - Yeah, it does. And I think some Christians in Eastern culture, Western culture, different countries around the globe, I think because of their culture can sometimes notice things in the word of God that I may be blind to based on the culture that I grew up in. One very simple example of this that's often used is in countries that have like a shame and honor value in their culture more than ours does. We can appreciate some of the shame and honor language in the Bible more if it's pointed out by someone who, they're more used to that kind of thinking and those kinds of values compared to the culture that I was raised in. And so, I love the attitude when we go to a different country to not only in evangelize, but to come alongside Christians in that country. The attitude is not, we're going here to merely minister to you and to teach you some things, but that we're actually ministering to one another and learning from one another because we have some things to teach them and they have some things to teach us and that's a healthy and humble attitude for Christians to have with their brothers and sisters around the globe. - Oh yeah, most definitely, most definitely. Also noted, the true disciples making means that we not only know the Bible, that's what you pointed out that we not only know the Bible 'cause there's plenty of places where you talk to people and they can wax eloquent on many theological aspects, but also live the truth out. 'Cause there's one thing for you to tell me God is love and or to tell me just about justification and all the fancy words that we can use, but if you don't act like love, if you don't act like God's justified you and he's able to save you from your sins, then I think it's a hindrance. So why is it so important that you just can you unpack that a little bit more why that is so important for us not just to know, but to live it out? - Yeah, the language in the beginning of verse 20 is so important to not teaching them merely to know all that I have commanded, but teaching them to observe all that I have commanded and that does begin with knowledge and that is the importance of Bible teaching and Bible study. You'll never hear me discouraging more Bible knowledge in more Bible study, but never as an end in and of itself, we want to know so that we can worship, we want to know so that we can serve, we want to know so that we may live out these things that we are learning of Christ and his word. James one says be doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving yourselves. And as good as it is to know the word, if you only know the word and you have no intention of living it out, it actually is almost worse than not knowing it to begin with because knowing it and not doing it, you have deceived yourself into thinking you're fine versus someone who doesn't know the revelation of God at all and might know that they're lacking something. And that's a pretty heavy thing, right? I was reading a book recently by one of my favorite authors and she was pointing out, written a lot of great stuff. Nancy Piercy highly recommend her, her most recent book, she gets into the idea of toxic masculinity and of course does a great job showing how, you know, biblically there are some things that God has called men to do and that's not toxic, that's good, if we are living it out, if we are leading and being strong in the ways that we should. But of course because of sin that is often misused by people. And she pointed out that the group of husbands that does the least amount of spousal abuse is Christians that are committed to frequent church attendance and all of the discipleship that goes along with that. The group that commits the most spousal abuse are professing Christians that very rarely attend church. They're actually abusing their wives more than people who don't attend church at all. And the reason is they're picking up some of this language of male leadership and headship and things like that. But without the full in-depth comprehensive knowledge and the discipling relationships with mature men, they're applying that clumsily. They're applying that selfishly and sinfully to dominate and abuse rather than to serve as they lead and to do so with the gentleness of Christ. And so to me that was an example of these people know just enough to be deceived and they haven't really fully committed to knowing and observing what Christ commanded. If so, they would be walking in love and not just walking in the arrogance of knowing a few things but not really following the example of Christ. And so it is vital that we know the word and that we're seeking to apply the word in wisdom. And that's the reason, by the way, that we have small groups as a church so that people can get together around the word of God to challenge each other. Are we living this out? Are we growing according to the word and not just stuffing our brains full of knowledge? And I write the growth guide for the small groups to go through each week. And some of the questions are just purely application to say, "Hey, we understand what this passage says. "Are we living it out in very specific ways?" And on occasion, I've talked to people that are like, "Oh, I just want more knowledge. "Why do we need these silly application questions?" And I'm like, "So you lived perfectly this last week. "You never lost your temper, never had an impure thought, "never." And it's like, "Well, no. "Well, then you still have room to grow." And so we need to take that time as Christians to come together and challenge one another to be living out the word of God that's preached and taught. - Yeah. I mean, I'm just struck at our current culture. It's a knee-jerk reaction to, like you were saying, this idea of toxic masculinity to where some guys are shamed. And so now you get professing Christians who want to have, who do become toxic in their masculinity. They want to invite that. I'd seen something on social media where the guy says, "You got to be ready to throw up a middle finger for something." And the guy's like, "No, no, that's not how Christians "to hurt, that's not how we operate." And it happens when it's like, the struggle is, and I think sometimes we forget it because we can be puffed up with knowledge. Like I notice, I notice, I notice. And the more I know, the more I realize my struggle is not what I know, it's am I living it out. - That's right. - And what I find is that when I'm in community with other fellow believers, they challenge me in certain ways to show me my shortcomings of yeah, you're not living that all the way out. And there's areas in which you can grow. And it's like, wow, yeah, I think knowledge is good. Like, hey, I went to seminary for a reason. So I'm not against knowledge, but it's not an end. It's a means to walk in a way. And it's not what you know. I think a famous, well, I'm growing up, they will always say, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And so it's talking about the actions. Your actions have to line up with what you talk about. Otherwise, it's a turn off. Your God is a hypocrite, he's a lie. 'Cause if being a Christian means I act like you, then I'm good. - Yeah, if you're motive for gaining more knowledge of God's word is so that you can worship God more fully and accurately. So you can better love those around you. So you can help others in love of them toward a greater knowledge of Christ. That's great. Those should be the right motives. If your motive is so you can win a debate, or so you can feel like you're cool with God because you know some things about him, even if your whole life is in rebellion against him, then you're deceiving yourself, as James one says. And so discipleship involves teaching, but teaching not only to know, but to observe. - Yeah, yeah, that's powerful. All right, last one. So otherwise we'll be here all night. - We can just make this a three hour podcast, why not? - Hey, can you impact how we should never let the world set our agenda as a church? - Yeah, yeah. I think that's hugely important for Christians. That the world not set our agenda as a church. Now that doesn't mean that Christians should not be impactful in the world around them. Jesus said, you are the salt of the earth, you are the light of the world. Christ absolutely wants Christians to impact the world around them, to do good in their neighborhood, in their city, in their society. The problem becomes when rather than the church discipling people, so they may be the right kind of people to be sent out to do good. Instead, the church tries to skip a step, and instead is directly trying to do the things that yes are good and that Christians should be sent to do, but you ever skip that step of making disciples and teaching them to observe what Christ commanded, they may start out doing good, but if they're not the right kind of people that are worshiping Christ and the way they should, it's all gonna fall apart. And so just to give a few examples, politics, be one example, getting involved in the community like a school board would be another example, feeding and clothing the poor would be another example of the needs around us in our world, right? And Christians should be involved in all of those things. I think it's great if a Christian runs for office. I think it's great if a Christian runs for school board or volunteers to serve in the lunchroom. I think it's great if Christians are feeding and clothing the poor, absolutely. But if those things become the agenda of the church rather than making those individuals into disciples of Christ first and foremost, then I don't think they will be the politicians they should be or the community leaders that they should be or the ones who are coming alongside the poor in the way that they should be because their heart to where the Lord isn't right and their character isn't growing. And we are not focusing them beyond the needs of the world to eternal realities and realities that last forever. And so the church has got to stay locked in to the mission of making disciples. Again, not preventing Christians from going and doing those good things in the world around us and responding to those needs and those challenges and those pressures as they arise. But the church has got to have one focus, one focus because challenges come and go and seasons come and go. And yet the church of Christ has remained through it all because at least enough Christians have remained locked into that long game and that long-term goal of making disciples for Christ. And as I mentioned on Sunday, the other reason for the church to prioritize that is there's no other institution or group that's going to prioritize that. If we don't make disciples as a church, who will? And so as we do that, then we are building the right kind of people who not only will be able to go out and make an impact in the world around us, but will also be prepared for eternity. And that's a win-win, if you ask me. - Yeah, most definitely. I think I talked to a lot of well-meaning people who say, you know, the church, you know, we need to focus in on this and they have this stuff and I'm like, that's great. Our job, like you say, I say, our job is to raise people up and I'm convinced that if this is a burden God has put on your heart and you're a part of a church, then my job is to equip you to be able to do that and make sure that I always say, tell people my identity begins first as a Christian. No matter what other adjective you want to describe me as, you should begin as a Christian before I'm anything else, I'm a Christian so that if anything I do, it's out of God moving me to do it. So if I'm the guy, if I'm the video guy at church, it's not just 'cause I want to be known to do videos, it's because God has gifted me in this way and I'm using this as a means to glorify God. If I'm a guy out fighting the good fight in politics, if I'm a Christian first, I won't lose my way. If I'm a politician first, I'll soon begin to compromise God's truth. - Are you saying there are politicians who claim to be Christians but aren't doing the right things? Is that possible? - I think so. - So you're saying maybe their church should have focused on making them into a better disciple? - A better disciple. - That ultimately would have made them a better politician. - Yeah, and I think we get it backwards. - That's right. - So backwards when we think, same thing with friends that we witness to, I don't want to make you into the image of me or make you, oh, you just need to stop smoking and you'll be all right, no? You need to love Christ. And when Christ moves on your heart to treat your temple in a certain way, then you'll stop smoking. It's not my job to make, to crucify you by getting you to stop smoking or stop going to movies if I think that's my job. It's to turn your affections to the Christ who died on a cross for you. - That's right. - And he is able to change you from the inside out. And when we as a church lose that, when we as Christians and followers of Christ lose that, then no matter how good our cause may be, Satan has a foothold. - That's right. - And he's just looking for an opportunity. - Yeah, that step of a sincere walk with Christ and a sincere worship of him and growing in him so the spirit can bear his fruits in your life, that is a step that cannot be missed. And if you skip that step in the attempt to do anything that's genuinely good, then it won't be good for the long run because you haven't been building the right kind of people from the inside out. - No, I mean, I remember Acts 6, there's like, it is not good for us to leave preaching God's word to wait tables. I don't think they think they were too good to wait on people but they realized the most important thing they're calling was Jesus had trained them for. - Yep. - What's the preach to God's word? - That's right. And they would have been wonderful charity organization leaders. It would have been wonderful politicians. They would have been wonderful at a lot of different things but you're absolutely right. That wasn't God's priority for them. It was prayer in the ministry of the word. - Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we've droned up long enough. I am excited for this Sunday. This is our fall kickoff. And so you are starting a brand new series for us. Maybe you can give us a preview of what we can expect. - I'd love to. Oh, the book of Ephesians, it's amazing. It is filled with so much wonderful rich doctrine. The doctrine of our triune God, the doctrine of salvation, the doctrine of the church and so much more that it teaches us but it doesn't just teach us and give us knowledge, it applies it richly. It applies it into the life of the church, how we are to come together and build one another up. And it applies it to individuals and various walks of life in the home, in the workplace. There's so much in the book of Ephesians, just six chapters but there's so much wonderful blessing in that book. And so looking forward to launching into that this Sunday and we'll begin by focusing on the first six verses and looking at the Father's glorious grace. And so my prayer is that people will be impacted by those verses and will respond in worship of God the Father who has done so many amazing things for us that we didn't earn, we don't deserve. But man, I'm so thankful for the Father's grace. - Yeah, I'm excited. So you guys heard it here. It's gonna be awesome this Sunday. So invite your family, your friends, invite an enemy, invite anybody you think needs to hear the word of God 'cause it's gonna be preached this Sunday. And hopefully you guys will come back that evening, the fellowship with us at our last summer nights. And so that's gonna be awesome. Are you gonna put an egg together for the egg drop? - Well, you put it together. I'm not giving away any secrets though, but I have successfully cushioned my egg two years in a row. So we'll see if we can do it a third straight time. - All right, great. So thank you so much for your time. If you can be so kind as to pray us out. - All right, let's pray. Father, I thank you for the blessing of time around your word and I thank you for this rich passage that we were able to consider on Sunday and discuss today. And I do pray that it's a church. We would be just locked in now and always on our central mission of making disciples for Jesus Christ. And through that, the world around us would be impacted, but more importantly, that people's eternities would be impacted and that you would receive glory as disciples of Christ are made. And we pray these things in His name, amen. - Amen. Thank you, sir. And thank you guys for tuning in and you guys have a great rest of your week. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)