(upbeat music) Success looks so easy from the outside, but all successful people have had to overcoming enormous obstacles along the way. And in many cases, look failure right in the eye. Most successful people don't focus on the struggle and they rarely talk about it because that's not what creates success. Join us here. Where we'll chat with serial entrepreneurs, both men and women, and share the good, the bad, and the ugly of entrepreneurship. We'll talk about the obstacles we face and how to overcome them, to reach the success that you desire. I am your host, Kami Lehman, and this is "She's Invincible." (upbeat music) Hey everyone, thank you so much for joining us today on "She's Invincible," and do we have an invincible one to introduce you to today? And Deboot is a multi-passionate soul who falls down way too many rabbit holes, learning and then sharing with others, a former nurse who saw the miracles of how the body heals, thought, "Why not the heart?" She's a certified, positive intelligence grief and loss coach. She's the author of "Griefs Abyss, Finding Your Pathway to Peace," and the host of "Let's Talk About Grief with Anne." Oh my gosh, you guys, I'm so excited to introduce you. Hey, too, Anne, Deboot Anne, welcome to "She's Invincible." This is way overdue. You have been on my wish list forever, so thank you for being here with me. I am so excited to share you. This is our first conversation of this type on "She's Invincible." In 240-something episodes. So I am over the top excited. Let's jump in. You're over the top. I can't believe we're actually doing it. We've talked how many years months ago and now we're doing it. So thank you, Cammy, for having me here. Almost two years, I think it is, right? Oh my gosh. - Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, so it's what a joy. I knew when I met you, like in the second I met you, which we'll talk more about. But I knew in that moment that you were a rock star and I wanted to be your friend and I wanted to have you on my show. And I'm just happy that the perfect time is right now. So welcome. - Yeah. - Oh my gosh. - Thank you. - Let's jump in, let's tell our listeners how in the world did you get where you are today? And what makes you invincible? What makes me invisible? I think I climb up a lot of hills. I reach the top and then I fall down and then I look around, shake myself off and start climbing again. I love that, you never give up. Just keep climbing, right? - Just keep climbing, yes. - Is that of it? - What is it, just keep swimming, is it? - Yes. - Dory or Nemo. - No, that's right. One of my favorite things when I get stressed out, I'm like, just keep swimming. Keep swimming, you can do it. So yes, keep climbing. So tell us how you thought where you are today. - Oh, Cammy, how long did we have? - Yeah, I've got a bit of a history. Well, you could say I always wanted to be a nurse. And then I had my tonsils out and that was trauma for me. And I wanted nothing to do with nursing. I became an angry child rather than the sweet, naive little girl that went into hospital. And I'm sure anybody that's had an experience like that, I didn't realize there was trauma involved. Anyway, I would have to have a lot of broken relationships. It was being engaged to my first husband. We would go to all these wonderful universities. And I just fell in love with learning. Being in those ancient hallowed hallways. I mean, it gives me goosebumps. Cambridge in Oxford, and we had friends up there. And of course, I would party there. And I decided I was gonna go back and take more exams. That allowed me to go into nursing. And I was a no-one nurse, so I was assisting doctors, handing them the instruments. So I almost had to know the operation as to all the different steps. And my husband decided he no longer liked being married to a nurse. And I always say, if you need to have dated a nurse, not be married to a nurse who goes back to school and then becomes a nurse. So I hadn't recognized that that was deep grief right there. I couldn't concentrate. I was being sort of told off. In those days, we had to recover the patient. So you'd be standing in the hallway, looking for the signs of this patient going into shock. So it was a very responsible position. And me with my head in the clouds, it seemed, I was gonna be dangerous. So I left and I played around for a little while. And what do you do when you're hurting? You give up your career, you give up your family, you give up your friends and your high-tail it from Britain to Canada. And I promptly met husband number two after about 10 days of being in Canada. Isn't that what you do? I thought, well, it worked, right? You did it. (laughs) So you can see if you look back, there's been a trail of grief. Not only giving up my identity, I'd always wanted to be in a nurse. I made it, being married was fun. I enjoyed that, leaving my family and leaving your country of origin. That is all grief, but we don't recognize it. You just think, let's change continents, leave everything behind, but that big black sack comes with you. And it took me probably a good 10, 15 years to process all the grief from that. So that's my journey. Now I forgot new question. Well, no, that's good, that's good. And then, so how did you get into becoming a grief coach from that point of recognizing that you had been burdened with so much grief that you didn't even recognize and then having to work through that and then becoming a grief coach yourself? Yeah, that would be the death of my dad. I mean, I thought being a nurse or having a nursing background, I'd be invincible to grief. What I didn't realize, Cammy, was I had half the equation. I wasn't scared of death, but what they didn't teach us was the emotional component. It was the emotions. You know, why am I feeling this? Why am I crying in the grocery store? Why, why, why, why, why? I quickly sought out help from a psychologist. Perhaps it should have been a psychiatrist, but anyway, it was a psychologist. And I really needed to understand grief. So when he said, "Everybody's journey is different." Okay, to get that. But it was these words. You never get over your grief. It was like, what? I'm gonna feel this way forever. Shoot me now. Right? Right. Like, what a thing to say. And I think that's what a lot of people believe if they're newly grieved, that that is going to be the rest of their life. They're going to be in that pain in the emotional turmoil. Like, it's pure hell when you're in it, but there are ways to be able to work through it. So it was that simple statement. You never get over your grief. But it was like, okay. Wow. Let's find some proof of this. Right, right. Wow, okay. Well, let's jump in. There's so much to talk about with grief. And now you have this positive intelligence certification. And I know there's just so much there. And we were one today, we're gonna talk about how we sabotage our own grief journey, right? So let's jump in and talk a little bit. I'm sure you have your own personal experience of that by just what you've shared so far. And then of course, all of the years of helping clients and all the conversations. So let's jump in with, let's start with first. Like, what is this grief all about, right? Where's it coming from? 'Cause you mentioned a couple different things that happened that caused grief, right? And when we think of grief, most people think it's death. Well, yes, it is, right? But it's so much deeper than that. So let's start there. And then we'll go into those saboteurs. Okay, exactly. So just in my story, losing a body part can be a form of grief, your health form of grief, divorce, a broken relationship, your identity of losing a job, of giving up a job. Who am I now? That is all grief. Then you have pet loss. Going through a divorce the second time, my old English sheep dog died. Good Lord, talk about pet grief. That's sort of grieving a relationship. And then my dog dies. And it, you know, increases the grief, the grief load. And then there are those women that are looking forward to being parent, a mum. And then the dad and the child doesn't make it to term. That is a loss of hopes and dreams of what your future with that child was gonna be. And it's a similar kind of loss for a divorce. You said I do. You had pictures of living happily ever after, you know, and going off into the sunset and dying with this person. You didn't expect it to end in a divorce when you were standing, making your vows. I think those are the main ones. An accomplishment. Going through university, graduating. That can be a form of loss. Just in the fact you're losing the people that you made friends with. You are now at the top, you're, you know, graduated. And now you're gonna go to the bottom and you've gotta start again. That can be one of those high-low moments. And there's grief there. And grief is very patient. It will wait and wait and wait and come out at the most inopportune moment. I have a question about this. I'll go for it. Tell me how grief affects the body physically and the mind. Because I see so many things and even in myself and, you know, in others that I think there's just no explanation, right? So is that a thing? - Oh my goodness, yes. I teach my clients this. People think of grief as being emotions. You know, the sadness, the anger, the disappointment, the fear, it's all mixed up. That's why the initial stages can take you out. They literally bring you to your knees. So there's the emotions. Then there's this sort of the psychological, your brain goes offline. When you're grieving, you don't have access to the prefrontal cortex. And the very simple reason I discovered when I was doing like grief training, stress, what happens when you're stressed? If you think about it's a very ancient part of the body that's involved, but you're stressed when you're going through grief. Your body thinks and wants to prepare you to run from that tiger or that, you know, whatever is chasing you. So your brain goes offline because to be able to run, you need more sugar, you need more oxygen. You don't need your brain. You've already made the decision to fight or freeze in that moment. Well, what happens to all those, that chemical, emotional soup? It sticks and stays in the body. I think it's Candice Pier that recognize that each emotion has a molecule. And unless you're releasing it, it'll stay in the body. You need the cortisol and adrenaline. Cortisol will create all kinds of havoc, inflammation, if it's not dealt with. Oh, yes, the research has found cortisol in your tears when you cry. So I encourage people to cry and cry and cry lots to release some of this. And even if you do a physical activity to sort of release some of this, if you watch National Geographic, you'll see a gazelle being chased by a lion, and it'll run and run and run. And it'll get to where it feels safe, looks around, and it will shake and then carry on eating. We don't do that, do we? No, we don't. When was the last time you stood the arm and shoulder? I don't remember, maybe never. Oh, I probably did once or twice, but, oh my gosh, that's interesting. So that can create all kinds of oddities, and there's a whole other science behind it, which is one of my rabbit holes I fell down, and I'm able to sort of help my clients with. The somatic work, if you like, to help release it from the body. The social aspect, people will leave the ones you thought were your friends. Where the heck are they? Others will step in, and you will think and go into isolation because you think people don't want to be around you because you're miserable all the time. Or they'll say things like, aren't you over that yet? It's been at least a month, 'cause they're not saying it to be mean. They just want the old you back. But unfortunately, the old you isn't coming back, Cammy. You are truly changed. So psychological, physiologically, socially and spiritually. And then you go into societal beliefs. Those all come into play. So there's like five things going on when you're in grief. Religion, you might have gone to church, you might have believed in God. I used to sing to Jesus when I was five. Do you think after having that operation, I sang to Jesus anymore? He was dead to me. (laughing) Oh my goodness. So if people have had that community, and that's the problem with today, we lack the community, the support to help us through. - One of the things you, yeah, one of the things you just said was that you will never be the same, right? You're not going back to that whoever you were prior to that event that creates the grief. But when you talk to people that are grieving, the one thing they say that's the most common theme is I can't wait to get back to my old self. Like I can't wait to feel normal again. That is like a setup because you're saying like, that's never gonna happen. And yet this is the desire that these grieving people are longing for, and yet it's not actually possible to get there. So it's almost like you are wishing the impossible dream. But you know, I think as I say that, I also feel encouraged to say that when you say you're not the same and you're never going back, it doesn't mean you're gonna be worse. It could mean you're gonna be better, right? You're gonna be better, you're gonna be healed, you're gonna be happier, you know, you're gonna be content, you're gonna have joy. Like, so hearing you'll never be the same or you're never going back to that same person doesn't have to be a negative thing. It can absolutely not, yeah, I just, oh my gosh, that was such a big moment for me. When you said you're never going back, you're never going back. No, you're gonna be, I'm not saying, are you gonna be bitter or are you gonna be better? And I've, in my book, I've taken a quote from Alison Wonderland and she's falling down the rabbit hole. As you can see, I love Alison Wonderland. Yeah, all my rabbit holes. And she says that, I can't go back to yesterday because I'm a different person today. She got it all those years ago. Why aren't we hearing it? Yeah. Give you a little, for instance, so my dad died and I kind of went through my grief. I had lots of support, lots of help. That is yet another story. But what it did for me was it made me realize that I had stayed in a job long after its expiry date. It no longer fulfilled me. And I suddenly thought, I don't need to stay here anymore. I won't be disappointing my dad if I leave because his mantra was, you get a good grades, you get a good job and you get a good pension and you stay there until you retire. And that was one of my societal beliefs. So a lot of those beliefs are there in your head and your grief gives you an opportunity to pick up, what are you believing? What are your beliefs? Is that mine or is it societies? So that's all part of the grief process. People I think want to go back to normal because it's the familiar. Yeah. They feel that helps them feel safe, but you can't have that safety. You need to be able to create your own new sense of safety moving on. Does I help this? This is so good. Oh my gosh. So okay, so grief shows up in people differently, right? Everyone's grief is different. So I know many people that don't realize they're grieving something still. So what would you say are the signs that people could know for sure that they're still grieving? Even though they're saying, oh no, I'm good, I'm over it. What would you say are some of the signs of ways they may be feeling or thoughts they may be thinking? Absolutely, well, one of them that jumps out is the fact that you are just sitting waiting. Your heart is still broken and you're just sitting waiting for something else in your life. That would be one, one a sense. Another would be excessive anger. You might be at a function and all of a sudden you start crying and you think, what's this about? It's a happy occasion, but it brings you back in your memory to perhaps a time when you were getting married or having a baby or whatever. I mentioned that grief is very patient. Anger, I mentioned, if you've got explosive anger, especially for men, women as well, we tend to hold it in. We just crunch. So that could be a sign. But for men, they're going to be volatile. They get cut off on the highway, you know, they're likely to put the finger up and shake a fist or, God forbid, stop you and pull out a gun. There's grief behind those emotions that haven't been dealt with. - And that's so sad and scary, right? - Yes. - So if you think you are having, you know, a grief problem or you know you're having one, where can people go to find help? Like, is there like, I know there's like a suicide hotline and there's, you know, different kinds of hotlines. Where do people go? Is there a public place for help for that? - There is. And it's taken, since I've been in this arena, which has been over 10 years, it's exploded. And I think that if there was anything positive that came out of COVID, it was our recognition and understanding of grief more. David Kessler is a wonderful resource. The grief recovery people train. David Kessler also trains the grief recovery people. They have groups, there's usually local support groups in your area. - When you were a nurse, did they have like, when there was a death at the hospital, did they like tell people like to go connect with this grief group or something like that? Is there a message? - No, no, all there was. This is why I didn't have the languaging. I had to learn all this language and understand grief from the emotional component. No, we would, that a death would happen on the wards. We would attend to the body and the family would be handed over to the chaplain. And that was it, that was as much as we get. I don't even know if there was any grief groups in those days. I mean, I'm talking about 50 years, darling. - Yes, yes, we've come a long way. - Yeah, well, now there's hospice and things like that. So I think that there were probably a little bit better when those types of things come into play. But it just seems like there's not this public outward advertisement, like if you're suffering from grief and yet that leads people to these other more scary, dangerous places when they are suffering from grief and it's not being addressed. So, and I think this walks us into the savatours, wouldn't you say, because there's so much of that and we're like denying, right? - We're just not accepting, I just want to backtrack on that. It depends on if the person died of a heart attack. I think if they go to a hospital that deals with that, that there would be the supports there now. If it's cancer and the person goes into palliative care, there are. We've now got made here in Canada, which is a suicide assistance and dying. I think it's the places, states that it's acceptable. So there are organisations if that has been. So it seems to be specific if there's a disease or whatever. I'm not certain if the person dies of natural causes. I know here in Ottawa, we have bereaved families of Ottawa, which is a free session and it's peer that I think there's a lot of peer support groups. So I'll leave it at that. And if people are struggling, they can reach out to me and I can help them locate something in their area. - Yes, but you also do grief coaching virtually, correct? - I do, yes. - So they can connect with you, but I'm just thinking like in an emergency situation where somewhere locally where they could get emergency help, but I do think that and the more I explore this, I believe that having a coach to walk you through that process is just so important because again, it shows up in so many different ways that you're just thinking, what's wrong with me? Why do I feel this way? Why is this, like you said, you're walking through the grocery store and you start crying. Like, you know, there's all these odd things that happen because of all the things that your mind and body are going through that I feel like it's so important to have someone that can say to you, oh, no, that is actually normal. People have told me that before. Like, you know, and this is how we work through it. So let's jump into these saboteurs because I think like this is the final part of this is, like when you were telling them to me, I'm like, oh my gosh, I think I'm at least three of those. So let's break them down, tell us what they are and what they mean, what they represent. - Okay, I probably fell in love with positive intelligence when I discovered it. And there's a whole site. It's well researched. It's psychology, neuropsychology, cognitive behavioral therapy, a sports psychology. It all kind of comes from those realms. So to me, it's researched, it can be trusted, if you like, it's not woo-woo as some people may call it. So we're all aware of that voice in our heads. We may think of it as our inner critic, but they call it our judge because by the time it's finished judging you, it's judged the situation. Oh, I'm just so busy today. I'm judging others, that's how the judge does it. Now, if you're not listening to anything the judge is saying, he's gonna bring up a posse of others. And you can go on and take the positive intelligence quiz to find out who your top three, you'll get to understand all the others, but we all have about top three plus the judge who could derail us, derail us when we're going for a promotion, derail a relationship. And of course, what I loved was the fact that understanding how people, 'cause they're not sort of behaviors. And they came about when we were children, we needed to know how to act around certain people. So that's where a lot of these behaviors come from. I felt that I could be a better coach if I understood this. So my clients now all take this quiz and they bring it to me. And when they're explaining some of the challenges they're having with their grief, I can gently point out that, or if they say, yes, I'm gonna do my homework. And I get that sense that I'm not quite believing them. I might say, oh, that could be your people pleaser. You don't really wanna do it, but you wanna please me. And I don't want you to please me. I want you to please you. So that is one of the ways I work with them. So you've got the judge, I'll go through mine. I have the avoider. So if you wanna pick a fight with me, I'm gonna avoid you. I'm gonna avoid saying something because I don't feel safe. I don't wanna get into trouble. I'm a good girl, you know. So people will avoid situations. Then my other one is the people pleaser, which I've just gone into. I'm gonna say yes to Cammy. Of course I'm going to come on this podcast 'cause I wanna please her. She's my friend. But now that I've told her that she's gonna be looking at me a little differently, I also have the restless. And what the restless does when you get too close to those emotions, emotions of any sort, squirrel. This is why I love learning and falling down so many rabbit holes. It's my restless. We can have the what positive intelligence calls saboteurs. But when they are used in a negative connotation, they can wreak havoc on our lives. But to have a restless saboteur in the positive, as I just explained, can be a good thing. So I don't want you thinking, you know, negative, negative, negative. No, there's positive aspects to them. It's just how do you use them? The victim. The victim comes up when it's unable to get any attention. And the only way it can do it is by what I call the poor me. I'm grieving right now. Why doesn't somebody come and rescue me? Oh my goodness, I'm gonna be feeling this way forever. So if I'm, I can pick up the language of a victim and I can gently point that out and then what would be a better way of saying, "Cami, I'm blooming well in pain. My heart is breathing." And you're gonna go, "Oh, let me sit with you. Tell me what's going on." But the victim is so used to not getting their needs met that they will be this way. Then you've got the hyper-achiever who's sitting there, I'm gonna do grief and I'm gonna get it right. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna be the top of my class. So if you are always taking certifications, if you're always going back to school or you're always, always doing, doing, doing, you could have the hyper-achiever, which would mean, why are you doing this? It could be your own self-worth, is at stake. So I would help that kind of person understand it and we'd find ways to coach them through it. And the hyper-rational. I find a lot of men who, men tend to be a lot more logical, women, my goodness. I think we're catching up, we have logic. Yeah, the two of us here have logic. How have we been able to navigate the podcast world? Of course we got logic. But men tend to be in their heads and grief is a heart, soul, time. You cannot think your way out of your grief. You've gotta be in it and sit with it. So a lot of men, as I say, will often avoid dealing with the emotions. They'll go to the gym, they'll do anything but sit. That would be a logical way of getting through grief. Why would I want to sit in that? So that would be the hyper-rational. What other ones have I not mentioned? I've mentioned the rest of us, the pleaser. Oh, the controller. I'm not going to cry, I'm just going to clench my fists. I'm just gonna stand there like a stuff penguin. I'm not going to do the emotions. I'm not going to go into it. They're going to become really controlling if that is part of their nature. They're going to, I want to attempt to control every single aspect of their lives. So it comes out even more in grief. They want to keep themselves safe. So they may go all hyper-vigilant. They may jump into the realm of the hyper-vigilant, which sees danger, danger everywhere, which is often what happens if you've had a death or you've had a health scare. You are going to be more aware and you're going to be looking for danger everywhere. But that is a way of getting yourself exhausted. If you're always on the lookout for danger rather than calming yourself down and taking a moment of pause. That is so good. These are so good. And then there's the stickler. Let me tell you about the stickler. Where are all the perfection mystic people? Yeah, I can put my hand up. The stickler is going to want to mow the lawn and take out the scissors and cut every blade of grass. The stickler wants everything perfect if they're having a dinner party. They want to. It's all about perfection, but as you can sense, there's a lot of control in there as well. Which is, I mentioned, do you have the judge? What are people going to think if I don't set the table properly? What if the meal isn't perfect? What are people going to say to me? So that is, I think I've covered them all now. These are so good, so good. And this is how we sabotage our grief journey. We sabotage our grief journey and we also sabotage our relationships when we are in grieving, when we are in grief. Because say you're wanting to control the situation, that energy, that behavior is going to come out. And your partner or your friends are going to feel that and it's going to bring their controller out. So all of a sudden you've got two people that want to control the situation. So you can see how arguments can happen, can't you? Yeah, for sure. For sure, this is so interesting. So if you could tell our listeners one most important thing about grief, what would be your final one important thing that they need to know? You need to go into your grief. You need to allow it to show you. Your emotions are, they're like signposts. They will help you understand what's going on. And if you've no idea what emotions are all about, I would suggest getting this amazing book by Carla McLaren called The Language of Emotions. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant book. You do need to go through the process. You need to feel the pain. The pain isn't going to be there forever. It will heal and you can feel your heart up with the good moments, not the bad moments, not what am I going to do? I found grief is very selfish. It's all about me, not the person that you've lost. So my best advice is to get to the other side. You need to go through the mountain. Sit in the muck, the muck. Oh, that's such a, nobody wants to do that, do they? Of course not. That's quite a role. Right, keep swimming, just keep swimming. Oh my gosh, Ian, this is amazing, amazing. And this is the first time that we have had a conversation about grief on She's Invincible. And I can't think of anyone I would have rather had to have this conversation with than you. So thank you, thank you for that so much. So tell us about your book. My book, "Grief's Abyss," and as the title suggests, why grief's abyss? Well, if you look at the dictionary's definition of what a, and the abyss is, it's deep, it's a chasm, it's dark, and it's pure hell. I think that kind of sums up grief, doesn't it, can we? I think it's us, we can, we apparently could have started with that, right? What is grief, grief's abyss? Oh my gosh, so, tell us a little bit about why people would wanna read your book, why they wanna get it and read it, and how's it gonna help them? It's gonna help them learn to navigate. It's, I sprinkled my story, 'cause I didn't want it to be poor me, poor, and you know, a victim story. I wanted to let them aware how I left the hospital shortly after Dad died, and I couldn't figure out why life was continuing. My life had stopped in that moment, but everybody else was still running around. It's a combination of my coaching, it's a combination of my learnings, and basically I see it as a U-shape, you go down, and then you learn to climb back up, just to become invincible. And I think we've got grief all wrong. I think grief is, it's one of those moments that will bring you to transformation. How could I be doing what I'm doing if it hadn't been for that one death, that significant moment that took me on this journey? Who would I be? You know, the people I have met, the people such as you, Cammy, who believed in me and believed my podcast need, needed to be a weekly one, let alone a monthly one. And all the people I have met on this journey, all the people I believe I've helped, that wouldn't have happened if I'd have stayed in my little room and not learnt to be able to share. So basically the book is about that. And at the beginning, there is a poem that I wrote in about an hour and a half. One of the benefits of grief is you tap into a very creative part of yourself, and poetry and writing was mine. - I love that. - Yes, that's beautiful. All right, well, tell us about the podcast. Let's talk about grief with Anne. - Yes, it's an opportunity to give grief a voice. And I believe we learn by stories, and these are my guest stories of how they have navigated their own grief. I've had stories from people who have lost husbands, wives, children, jobs, identity. Also people who have had losses and their lives have changed, and they're now creating apps, they're now creating steps to help people learn more about grief, how to talk to people in grief, how to help children in grief. And yeah, that's what the podcast is all about. It's to help people understand the messy, but give a message of hope at the same time. - So beautiful. So at such a time, with grief, I mean, everyone needs to be encouraged and inspired. So, and I think that when people go through that, they feel like they're the only one, right? They feel like they're all alone. And I think it's because not enough people are talking about it. And when they get to hear someone else's story, then they have someone else that they can relate to and say, oh my gosh, that person went through that too. And I think it helps us to center ourselves a little bit better, to not feel like the victim, but to be able to say what I'm feeling is normal. And I'm not alone, not alone, and no one wants to be alone at a time like that. And I think that's amazing. Oh my gosh, Ian. Let's tell our listeners, just tell them one place where they can find you and then we'll have everything else in the show notes. - Okay, well, my website. And believe it or not, it's called understanding grief. I love it. Oh my gosh, that's so great, appropriate. - Very simple. And there's a free PDF on 12 ways that you can start to begin your journey. - Awesome. And we will have the link for the quiz for the positive intelligence quiz. So we'll have that in there in those show notes guys. Just click the link and it will take you everywhere to the podcast, the book, the PDF, and also the quiz. And thank you. Thank you. For thanks for being a people pleaser. I think I have to say that. Now that you made that comment, there are people dying to get on she's invincible. - To think that you did it just because you're a people pleaser or something. But I would say thank you. - And I fell in love with you and you've got a special place in my heart. - I love you too, it's mutual. And I appreciate you so much. And I just feel like this was the time to share the story and to really point people to being able to understand the grief and get on a journey to help to, I don't even know what you say. You don't really overcome it, do you? You just move on, right? You move ahead. Is that what we say? - Well, I would like to say that I have moved on. Look at the life I've created. And it doesn't mean that, you know, I'm not bringing my dad along with me. I've got a picture of him outside my office. And I say, "Now look what you got me into." I had to be on shoes and bits of all today because of you. Oh my gosh, that's so great. - You have moved from fighting cancer to discovering how to live beyond it. But what now? With so many emotional side effects still unknown, as a new survivor, you find yourself in a void as you navigate through the isolation, fear, and an uncertain future that can overshadow you and your family for years to come. Instead of focusing on the uncertainty of cancer, consider how strong and determined you are and think of the strength demonstrated by those who stood beside you through it all. Consider this, you now get to choose who you want to be and what your intentional, fulfilled life can look like. You made it through treatment. We can help you define yourself as a survivor. We're here to help you through this moment, to walk beside you as you shift your mindset from counting the days of life. - To creating a legacy. For more information, visit www.adventuretherapyfoundation.org or contact us at info@adventurefound.org. - Well, you know what she's invincible? We promise our listeners that we're going to bring them fierce entrepreneurs and that we're going to spotlight their expert zone of genius, which you have done so well today. So thank you so much for that. But we're not done because, no, because while we're doing that, we also promise our listeners that we're going to pull back the curtain, you know, people, they get to hear you and your accent and your voice and your heart comes through with everything you say. And they hear that and they think that and she's so lucky. She moved on, she's created this amazing life and now she's helping other people. But they have no idea the price you paid for the life you live today. And so because of that, we love to pull back the curtain and we love to tell some stories about the good, the bad and the ugly of your journey. So people won't call you lucky. They'll say that and is amazing. And I want to be like her, I want to overcome. And I want to create a beautiful life of my own. So are you ready to tell some stories? - Oh my goodness, go for it, girl. - Okay, let's go. So the first one is about the good or the greatest part of your journey. So tell us a little story about that. - The greatest part of my journey has been made very evident. A couple of months ago, a good friend nominated me for a business award, an entrepreneur award and part of that I had to delve back into the cobwebs of my brain, of my journey and write everything that I had done. That to me was a huge accomplishment. It made me recognize what I had achieved in the 10 years since I retired. It's also the good is all the people I have met along the way. I met you in one of the most amazing countries that I fell in love with. I got to go back there. Thanks to one of the people I guessed on my show. And I met you, and as I've already said, you encouraged me, I've gone to New York and I met three other amazing guests. So these are the delicious moments of my entrepreneur journey. - That's so great, so great. Okay, tell us a story about the bad part. We'll save the ugly for last, but tell us a story about the bad part of the journey. - The bad part of the journey is feeling alone, which I think a lot of entrepreneurs. You've got the camp of people saying, you can't do that. You're not going to make money at that. You're not going to do that. And it's overcoming the naysayers and believing in your own abilities. I have fallen down way too many rabbit holes attempting to navigate tech. I wished I could say that my journey created a wealth of financial abundance so I could have a team. But I've done it mainly on my own recognition, my own investments. That has kind of had a bit of a, it's been hard doing that, doing it all alone. - Entrepreneurship is hard and especially with what you're doing because the topic itself is hard and then being an entrepreneur is very hard too. So I love that you called that out and it can be very alone. It's not like you can team up with a bunch of grief people. It'd make your job easier. It's not easy, but it's worth it. It's so rewarding when you're able to help people through that journey. - Yeah, and that is what has kept me going is my clients who speak volumes. My happiest moment is when my client is no longer my client. I know that sounds crazy, but I am. It means that they have picked themselves up and are able to continue their journey and known without me. - They moved on. Yes, you got them to the place where they needed to be. It's amazing. Okay, tell us about the ugly part of the journey. - Oh, grief is not one of those places you want to, share on Zoom your whole mess. You know, you've got snot coming out of your ears. Your makeup's all over the place and oh no, I got to go to work next day. - Right. - Right. - And then you tell everybody, do not hug me 'cause you know if they hug you, you're going to be a mess. Navigating the workplace was probably the worst when I was grieving, which is why I've done so many podcasts on workplace grief. - Yeah, well, that makes sense, right? You're an expert. What to do, what not to do, right? It's all, wow, well, Ian, this has just been amazing. Is there any final words that you want to share before we say goodbye? - Just go through it. Your life will be changed forever. I've got over 100 people on my podcast whose lives are not the same as they were before they took their grief journey. And they're all in different careers. They're creating apps. They've created a whole new life for themselves and it doesn't mean that they've forgotten the person. And I think that's the most important thing. Moving on doesn't mean you're going to forget about the person. It just means you're bringing them with you. - That's beautiful. 'Cause I hear that a lot when it comes to grief from death is that people feel like they're gonna have to stop thinking about them or stop talking about them. And yeah, I think that that would, that would stop me, I think that would probably stop me in my tracks if I had lost someone that. And I couldn't, I had to feel like I had to forget them that would do it. So. - Absolutely. No, it's not about forgetting. It's keeping them close to your heart. - I love that. And I think we keep people alive when we continue to share stories and talk about them. I love that. Yes, I love to hear stories. Like I'll say to my friends, like tell me a story about this or tell me a story about that or what's your favorite story. Or, you know, I'd love to hear that stuff. And I think it like rekindles that flame inside of them. And, but it also helps them to be able to share that. And they find more love, right? - Yeah. - For those people. And closer relationships. And I think that's so important. - Oh my gosh, Leah's. Because it's unfortunately still today, the greever is the one educating everybody else. And with my clients, I teach them, especially when it comes up to the important, the holidays. Those are the moments, those special occasions are the moments where they're gonna miss their person the most. Decide ahead of time how you would, you visualize the day happening. It doesn't have to be, well, we did it this way. Create a new tradition. Set a place if that makes the person, you, everybody feel more comfortable. One woman said, no, I'm sitting in his place. - Okay guys. - That's my spot now. Tell people what, how you would lie. Yes, I wanna talk about it. Address the elephant that's gonna be in the room. This is what I mean about the greever has to educate others. Tell them you wanna hear more stories. - Oh, all right, you guys. I don't know what else we could say about this other than connect with Anne, take the quiz, go to her website, tell us again, Anne, your website. - It's understandinggreef.com. - Understandinggreef.com and everything else is in the show notes. So just click and you find your way to whatever will support you best in your grief journey. And I don't know where you are in your life or your business, but if you're face down on the ground right now, get back up, you can do it. I know, I know, it feels like you can't do it. I have been there, I'm here to tell you you can. You just need to get back up. You can do anything. You are invincible. - Thank you for joining us today. If you were inspired or learned something new, please follow the show. Submit a rating and review and share us with your friends. If you would like to chat to see if you can attract your ideal client and monetize your business through podcasting, please book a free call with me at cammyleman.com. I can't wait to meet you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]
