Radio Miraya
2810: DEMOCRACY IN ACTION: Federalism and the constitution making process in South Sudan
Hello and welcome to Democracy in Action. My name is Animat. In our episode, we shall continue to talk about the Constitution making process. And that's a very, very important topic because it's going to happen. And it's one of the basic documents of the land. And we want to find out from you also later on. You can join us during our discussion with my two guests here and call us on 0 9 1 2 0 6 20 79. And we will be raising more awareness about the upcoming Constitution making process and has it is stipulated in the 2018 Nevertheless Peace Agreement. We won't find out today what are the roles of the academia, law makers including yourself as citizens in this very crucial process. I'm joined here by two of my guest, Honorable Ghatuich Lam, who is a member of Parliament representing Spelem I/O in the National Legislative Assembly here. Good morning and welcome once again to Redimira. Thank you, Sanifor, for having me. And I also have one of the professors in the University of Juba, Focality of Law, Dr. Alfaki Cholwal. Welcome to Redimira, you are the Dean, Professor at the Focality Law, University of Juba. I'd see your first time to be here, right? Thank you very much. I'm also welcome. First of all, let's begin, has a professor in the University of Juba. When we talk about federalism, what does it mean in a simple term at a common moment? Because that word, I'm very sure you would agree with me if you talk about federal system in South Sudan, it sends a lot of fear, and that among some South Sudanese. Thank you very much, Claudia Miraya, and my greeting to your listeners across the nation. Federalism is a system of government in which the powers are divided between the different level of government, and the government structure is divided at least into two levels. You have national level, state level, and we'll go to local level or local government level. So the structure of government is divided under federal system into different level. Each level has its own constitutional powers provided by the federal constitution. So it should not raise fears or people should not suspect or to run away from talking about federalism is a system of government, like any system of government in the world. Where is this kind of anxiety coming from or fear? Because when you talk about federal systems, some people think if I live here in Central Florida, I would be told to go back to my village. Now, federal system unites people. Yes, local people may retain some powers, but at the same time you have to form a national government in which all people belong to that government. So when you are a citizen of the country, you have right to stay unaware. You cannot be informed that you go back to your original area. Because you are one citizen, we have the same nationality, we have the one citizenship, we are a citizen of the one country. And the horrible language, why is it very important? Because this agreement we are talking about here, it talks about federalism, even the constitution should be written based on a federal system. What is the significance of this? Thank you, Sandy Martin, for having me once again. And also thanks to the audience all over South Sudan. I think this forum is a very educative forum. Is it not partisans? Though I represent a particular political party, but actually when I speak here, I will not be representing a party, but I would represent what the people of South Sudan actually want to hear. Before answering your questions and why is it significant and important for us to have a federal system, let us go back to the background of the federal system. The federal system was the demand of the people of South Sudan since 1947, during the Dubai Conference, during the Dubai Conference. And then again, because Northerns don't want to hear about federalism, because they have their own perceptions and understanding of federalism or federation of South Sudan by that, then it was not allowed to happen. But recently, and after the defender of South Sudan, and I let me go take you back to 2011, when we were actually formulating or enacting the current constitutions, we were few members of the parliament that demanded that no, we felt that the disservice system that we have in South Sudan now is more centralized than being a disservice or the devolved powers and resources to the lower levels than that. So then we said that let us go federalism. And we went to the parliament, it was voted 42 members of parliament voted for federal system, but that is voted for a disservice system. This is what has happened. Now, when the agreement was signed in 2015 and also 20 revitalized agreement 2018, it was also put in the constitution and become one of the demands of the people of South Sudan. And it was enshrined in the R.R. case that the federal system is a demand of the people of South Sudan, and the government that should be established should be based on the federal system. And then also the national dialogues that was conducted, also adopted federal system as the best system of governance. So why is significance and important for us to go further? As it was said by President, you know, the federal system is the evolution of power and resources to the lower levels. And when you have the federal system, you have three levels of the government. You have the national, the state, the local government, and also go to the fourth level, that is the municipality. These are the levels when it comes to the federal system. When it comes to the these levels, they share powers. There are two types of devolutions. It might be a delegated power where the federal system will delegate powers to the state and local government, or states. And also, there's a type of federal system that we share some of the powers. Because if you go federal, you go for complete delegation of powers to the states, that can be a recipe for some other things, maybe claim independent at the end. But at least that might be a chair. Some of the powers should be chair, but should be at national level and some at the state level. And if you look into our constitution now, there are powers, there are national powers, there are state powers, and local government. And there are concurrent powers. So, but here, what is important is that there should be semi-indefendants of the states and local government. And when it comes to power, there are certain powers that will be exclusive to the national government. And then some powers should be also have exclusive to the states. When it comes to resource, the resource also should be shared by the different levels of the government. So you will find, for example, we have oil now. Oil is a national resource. Mining is a mineral or a national resource. And other sources are national resource. These things are shared by all levels of government. So the national government should have its own chair and also the state should have and then the local government. That's why you see now, at the national level for oil, for example, the oil have a certain chair, 40% for example. And then when you go to state, they have two percent. When you go to the local government, that the county, they have three percent for the community. These are how the chairs said that there should be a development all over and everybody should benefit from that. This is one of the examples of that. But this is why it is important that when you devolve ours and also resources to the lower, then the development. So the government will be now expanding at the lower levels and then changing at the national level. Right. And Dr. Alfaki, first of all, could you share with us some examples of specific examples of federalism in some countries where it has worked successfully. And that can also be replicated here in South Florida, because one of the big questions that has been going on is what kind of federal system should South Sudan adapt? Thank you once again. And as an honorable put it in federal system, powers, financial powers, political powers are divided. And as you put it also, under federal system powers are devolved to the local government, are not delegated. And the difference between the two is that when powers are delegated by the central government, they can be with the road any time, but devolution is according to the constitution. So the national government cannot withdraw those powers unless the national constitution is amended. Yeah. Federalism is applicable in the world. For example, in Ethiopia, federal system was adapted to solve the issue of ethnic diversity. So now they succeeded because of federalism that they adapted in 90s. In Iraq, also because of diversity, the Kurdistan region was given autonomous entity. So it succeeded there. In Nigeria, also federalism was adapted to solve the issue of diversity. So any diverse society, any diverse country, or with a large size, or with a large population like India, federalism is better for them. In South Sudan, here South Sudan is a diverse country. And even the roads or access to move from here to there is very difficult. So when you devolve powers from the central government, to the lowest government, you will take services to the local powers. So the government at the local level will work effectively more than the national government. So the decision at the lower level there will be taken immediately without waiting for the decision to come from the national government. So people in Burma or in Raja or in Kefeki should not wait for the decision to be taken in Juba here. They should have their own power to decide on their affairs. And now, what is the role of the citizens here? And also making sure their voices are hard in terms of decision making. Because it is very, very important for the citizen, also to be consulted. We understand that the Ministry of Federal Affairs was supposed to have a conference here in Juba, but it is delaying maybe because of some factors funding. What is the role of the common citizens here? You see, a constitution, let me say this. A constitution should not be imposed on the people. It should come from the people. So when we talk about federal system in Juba here, without participating in this common citizen, that why the people will not know the nature and importance of federal system. So we should do, like what you are doing now, civic education. People should have knowledge about the concept of federal system, its importance and the role of the people. One of the important issues, important issues in federal system is participation of citizen in public decision, in public policy. So people have to participate. So we have to open public forum and the issue of federal system should be discussed thoroughly, not in parliament alone. We should go up to the grassroots so that we take their opinion, their voice to be incorporated in the national policy of the country. So people must participate directly or indirectly. And we should go to them. They should not listen only through radio. We have to go to them. Okay, honorable. Beside what Dr. Alfaki have said about the role of citizen participation of citizens in public policy, what are some of the advantages again of a federal system for some of them? Yeah, I fully concur with President of what he said and how people participate in the federal systems. In fact, to write the constitution, constitution is driven, people driven knows that is incorporate the ideas and views of the people. That's why people go for public consultation, to solicit views of the people of how this constitution will look like. That will also happen when there's a civic education and also public consultation on the people. Now, coming to this chair, when we say chair, that means there's a participatory approach to the issues. And the type of system that we want to adopt is a cooperative system where everybody will come and participate with ideas and inputs to whatever is going to be decided based on this. So with this, I think it's important for us as people of South Sudan to dedicate our peoples and also to try to mitigate the fees that also will come always about the implementation of federal systems. So when we share powers in the federal systems, all levels of government are elected. So the presidency, the governance, the members of the parliament, including the commissioner at the lower level, all of them are elected. That means it is now the people decided who is going to govern them. Then again, when they're elected, all levels of the government are elected, then now even this way or now they will be a level of accountability and transparency because they know that whenever they mess up, those who elected them now are, he's accountable to those who elected him, say that when he do that, these people also have the same power to be removed. For example, now, if the governor is elected, then the president does not have power to remove him. It would be the assembly of that country, that state to remove the governor because they have the powers in their constitution to remove the governor. Then now they will go for by election to elect a new, so this is a participatory approach to this federal system that we are doing. So now, I think it is important for all of us to know that also in the federal systems, the federal system also is applied and we have the by camera legislature. It should not be unilateral. It should be a by camera. So in our context, for example, we have the national assembly and we have the council state. So now in other ways, we have we have the federal system by default, where we have now to by camera systems. We have two filements. We have the national details of somebody and we have the council state. In other countries, we have the House of Representatives and also they have the Senate. For example, in South Africa, they have, they have the, they have the national assembly and they have the council of the provinces. And also in Kenya, now we have the Senate, which is representing the counties and also they have the national assembly. So this is another way, despite the fact that the South Africa did not call it a federal system and also Kenya did not call it a federal system, but there is a devolved powers to all these levels. And you can see now the counties in Kenya, I have never been in Kenya for long, but in Kenya, what I'm hearing that there's a lot of development going at lower levels, simply because of that devolved powers and resources that are given to the counties. Also, the same thing in South Africa. So this is, this is how federal system have worked and this how people participate in the decision making. So anything that will be decided, it will the people that decide. So that's why when we say that there must be a permanent constitution, that means this must be a constitution that driven by the people and also they will participate. That's why the Ministry of Federal Affairs now, they have already we the parliament has already enacted the policy. Now they are working on the blueprints. Now they are preparing for the national conference on federalism. But because of scarcity resources, they are not able to do that. So whenever they do this, where now people are going, delegate are going to be sent from all of it, to Juba, to come and participate in the decision of time of federalism that they are going to have in South Africa. Okay. Yes, if you have just joined us right now, we are listening to Democracy and Action. My name is Sanyamat and we are coming to your life from Juba. And we are talking about or raising more awareness about the federal system in conjunction also with my two guests here you have heard from them more about this process. We have two guests here, Honorable Ghatwe Chilam, who is a member of parliament in the National Executive Assembly here. And we have Dr. Faki Cholam Lual, who is a Dean Professor at the Faculty of Law University of Juba. And if you have got any question about federalism in this country, please do call us on 091-2079. Oh, you can say that your question to our SMS number 091-06, 091-177141. I already have a couple of SMS coming in here and this one says my question goes to the professor from the University of Juba. Like we have heard from you that the call for federal system started way back in 1947. The National Dialogue also echoed the same issue and he won't find out two questions. Professor, what is the role of academia in advocating for the implementation of the cause of many thousands and is for federal system in this country? And the second one is what will it take for federalism to be implemented in this country that's coming from dang in tomping here in Juba. Another question is coming in from Jackson also here in Juba. And this is my question goes to Honourable LAM. It says there are politicians who are resisting the implementation of federal system in South Sudan because they think they will lose properties for example here in Juba. If federal system is implemented, there will be sanity and there will be law and order and some people who don't want order are the one resisting it. What is the influence of politicians in resisting the implementation of... do you think that is the kind of resistance by some group of politicians who are resisting the implementation of federal system as a general call by the citizens? That's from Jackson here in Juba. Yes, let's begin with you professor, the first two questions from dang. Thank you very much Mr. Dang. The role of academia is to deliver knowledge or to make civic education. So we educate people about the concept and principles of federal system and we remove any fears that federal system is a dangerous system of government. So what we do is we teach people the knowledge we participate to the public about the general concept of federal system or federal system of government. It's advantages and disadvantages also of how it works. So this is the role that can be played by academia. For the second part of your question that for implementation of federal system, what will it take? I think this needs political will when there is genuine political will and the government is willing to do so. The first thing is to do civic education, let the people understand the meaning, concept, advantages and disadvantages of federal system. It should not be taken that it is a demand of particular group of people. So it should be taken as a public demand of the people and people should participate openly. So that they decide about what they want. So this may take time and it needs efforts. People must work hardly. The government should work hardly so that the people understand now we have Minister of Federal Affairs and its role should be to educate people about the federal system. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Actually, I will agree that there are people who are resisting federalism and the live example was in 2011 when we were enacting this constitution. It was few us who actually, we are not few, we were good in number, but and then we said no this in decentralized systems is not working because it's not devolving resources. Now you can see that accumulation of resources at national level and you will see the lower levels are not benefiting. There's no development at the state level, there's no development at local governments. So let us go federales, say that we devolve resources at the lower levels, but it was resisted by some of our colleagues in the parliament. Yeah. And it was even when to the point of even fighting people. So people were targeted that the people who are we want and even I was I remember one of our colleagues were threatening and telling me that look if we go federal we are still we can't even go back to arms and we can vote to you know back to uniform. What bring uniform now and what take us to arm again? What is the fear here? What is the fears? You know, the fear is let if I take you back to Kokkara, the Kokkara phenomena was actually give a bad gesture and bad memory to everybody because as you have asked the professor before that now when you come further the neighborhood will be chased away from here and the neighborhood will go to his own states. That was how that what happened in early 80s. I think you were not even you were very young, but we were already grown up. So and we were already after we were after second in school. We already finished we are interfering ourselves to go university. So at that time people which everybody was asked to go they were divided even the assets. So that perception now is still in people's mind in people's minds. So that now when we come to the professor they said that this the same thing is going to repeat itself while it is not the same that era and this era is the different. Second the the meaning of Kokkara in barrier is they said according to our colleagues they said that this is chairing things which here that's the meaning of Kokkara. It's not telling you to go. No telling you to go. So now this is one of the perceptions and misconceptions of other colleagues that are misinteracting the issue of federalism. Another issue is that people are seeing that when is about resources. So you can see now some of the states are lucky enough to have to have oil to have some of them have minerals and mines. Some of them have a lot of animal resources and all this. So they felt that when people go federal everybody will have its own resources. We're not sharing with anybody. While we have already three level of government that are federalists. Yeah like you explained earlier. As I explained earlier. So now when we come to federal system this the resources are going to be classified. There will be natural resources which we will be shared by all people of South Sudan and then there will be state and local government resources. So fear actually evolves around the resources chairing and also found because some other people want to cling to the power and they don't want to share it with others. So they want to be dictating the lower levels and make decisions at the national levels here. So this is other fears but these fears can't be mitigated when people come to understand what does federalism. So who should mitigate this kind of fear. It is the same politician when they change their perception and understanding about federalism. These are the same people because those who are confusing the citizens and civilians now are the politician. Because they are the one now taking news to the people. No, no, no, no. If you go federal I can see now some people even are taking personal and I remember we did a lot of work with the Mayor of Federal Affairs and we also form working groups. We visit some other countries to share experiences. When you come to people and talk to people about federalism you'll find them that and no, no, no. This is the Ministry of Kokara. So they don't want it and you can see now why they are not able even to conduct the national conference. It's because they are denied resources to do the work simply because of that wrong perception and they're seeing it and I remember one of our colleagues saying to us in Israel and Gal Gadashilo federal without the federal government. Take it away. Take it away. So you can see the perception. These are the people who are now confusing the public. But if we come to the reality as it was defined by Professor and also I give some definition to that person that addressed the issue of diversity. They also share resources together. Yes, also that is an equity. Equally. I think these people will live in harmony. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. Yes, you can see colors on 091, 2069. Hello, everybody. Yes, your name. Yes, your name and why are you calling for that much? Yes, your name. Okay, go ahead from Ben to you. Okay. Okay. Professor, the girl got a lot of trouble. I don't know. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. There is another question here from what upstate. It says it was explained earlier, but I would like the honorable to make more clarification. This few powerful group whose voices are resisting the implementation of federal system. What is the way for it? How do we engage them as people of South Sudan? Thank you. This few powerful people. How do we change them? I think if they are few, and the majority of people of South Sudan are for federalism, definitely they remain minority. And if we are in democratic process, definitely the majority rules. It's a right everybody rules. So we, that's free to express their own view. It is their own views that they don't want federalism. Simply because of their own understanding, because of their own perception. But if people of South Sudan, and as it was enshrined in the agreements and also in the national dialogue, all of South Sudan, they agreed that it's a public demand now for people of South Sudan. That means the majority of people of South Sudan are for federal systems. So if these few members become members, and they are powerful, how powerful they will be? Until when? Until when. Definitely their powers will be shrinks and also will be subdued by other world. So we will not have a problem. We will just consider them that they are free to express their own views, their own views, their own views, should be respected. Okay. But they have, as equally, they should also respect the views of the majority and the demand of the majority of people of South Sudan. All right. 091, 2060, 79 is the number for you to call, or you can call us at 092-9686-297. And ask your question to my two guests here. We have Dr. Alfaki Chol Roal, Dean Professor at the University of Juba for Cult of Low. And also, I have Honanibor Ghatwech Lam, who is a member of the National Legislative Assembly. Hello everybody. Hello. Yes, your name? Yeah, you are connecting with you for a Monica. Okay. Mahabic. Yeah. Let me read the Honanibor and Professor. Mm-hmm. My question is that we try to build the religion better. Because that is a tribal, tribal one, like the one who was in the U.S. Okay. Yes. What kind of federal system is suitable for South Sudan? I think that question has been being, everyone, the minister was here one time back. And another question also here is my joke, my end. My joke from Julu River County says, "My question, what are the factors affecting the implementation of federal system in South Sudan?" And another question here is to both of you in the studio. Do you think there is a high demand for serious awareness that will involve politicians, academia, civil society, partners, religious leaders, to conduct massive awareness to educate people about federal system? We know that the economic crisis right now, but is it possible for everybody to embark on serious awareness to educate people about federal system in order to eliminate this negative perception about federal system? That's from Lupai in the area of the county, central control state. It's going to all of you here. Yes. Please open the mic. Yes. Honorable. Yeah. The last question. Okay. So let me start with the type of federal system that... Yes. In Mala Khan. In Mala Khan. In fact, this is one of the questions that everybody is asking. So wherever you go, what type of federal system that you want to... You want to impalments. So now, already we have chairs, experiences from other countries. For example, our system that are in a federal system, you can have a presidential system, why federal system is applied. That means you have the national level, what is something in America. In America now, you have the federal system that is by the presidents and also you have the congress and all. But at the same level, you have the states government. That's the presidential system of impalmenting. Okay. Impalmenting the federal system. Now, there's a parliamentary system that also impalments the federal system. For example, in Australia, in India, and also in other countries. And also in South Africa also, they have the presidential system. But it looked like a federal system in other way, because there's a devolution of powers. So now, for us, that's for us. That's my own views. We will prefer that we have to go for presidential systems, but with the devolved powers to the lower levels. Because if we go for parliamentary system, parliamentary system is costly. And in our diverse system that we have now, diverse community that we have here and there. It will be costly and it will also create a political instability. Because it will be the five minutes or five minutes, it will be elected by the parliament. What is happening in Ethiopia? What is happening in Ethiopia? So if that happened, then it would be a problem for us. Taking into consideration the tribal affiliation that we have here. So it will not be a stable kind. That's why we are not for ethnic federalism. That is a flight in Ethiopia. You can see now there's a lot of instability in Ethiopia. So this is what we can't go for. We should not go for that. We are coming to effect the implementation of the people. Now we are on the process of implementation of the federal system. Because it is not yet enshrined or incorporated in the constitution. That's why there's a permanent, there's a process the permanent constitution makes in process that should adapt the federal systems of governance. Again, demand for a serious public awareness. Because for us to change all these perceptions and conceptions, that is happening about the federal system. What has happened sometimes from somebody else? There are people who are fearing the federal system. We cannot change these fields unless we make public awareness. That's why in the constitution for making process, there must be a public consultation. There must be also civic education on this. To take the information and also ask the solution, be able to change the perception of the people. So there's a need for us to go for civic education and also for public consultation. Right. Professor, as we conclude, our time is up in one minute. You summarize what is your concluding remark. Do you like to add something on what the development of said has been finished? What I can say here is people should not ask the responsible minister of government about the type of federal system. It is the people themselves to decide what kind of federal system do they need. And the role of the government is to make civic education. During civic education, they should be located about the examples of federal system in the world. After that, they will choose the one which is best for them. So the type of federal system should not be imposed on them. The citizen of the country of South Sudan should be the one to decide. That is one. There are factors that affecting implementation and may affect the implementation of federal system in South Sudan here. We have many. One of them is the ignorance. People are not aware of the high degree of literary people. That is one. Economic situation. Because federalism is very expensive, it needs a lot of resources. And when you have economic challenges, federalism will not succeed. Secondly, political instability. If there is no political stability in the country, federalism will not work successfully. So these are the things. And I think my recommendation is that we should conduct highly civic education in the country concerning implementing federal system. Thank you so much. Yes, honorable final in seconds. Thank you very much. What I want to say is that for people of South Sudan, federalism is the best option for us in South Sudan. Say that we can be able to have more powers at the state level local government. And also we can be able to share resources together. And also to get the fears of the people that are seeing that federalism will go into the problem. Nobody is going to run away with the resources. If I have my own oil in Upper Nile state, no, I'm not going to run away with it. I will share it with somebody in Northern Barbazale. I will share it with somebody who is already in Western Equatoria. And that is the national resource that we are going to share. If you have your own minerals in some states, we are going to share. So, please, federalism is not going to deprive everybody from its own rights. So if we are going to share things equally and also unite us as the people of South Sudan. Thank you so much. Honorable Gatwish Lam and Dr. Al Faki, Joel Lual, Dean of Professor at the University of Juba for County of Low. And the news is coming next. Thank you so much. And that's it. We have for you this week Democracy in Action. My name is Sani Martin. Stay tuned. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]