My guest is Stefan from the MLVC Podcast! Your source for all things Madonna. Stefan has had some memorable moments with the Queen of Pop that he shares. She did SO MUCH in the 90's, and we talk Justify My Love, her Oscars date with MJ, Maverick Records, Dick Tracy, Evita, and a surprise track featuring 2Pac.
Dope Nostalgia
Episode 212 - Madonna
[MUSIC] Welcome everybody to Dope Nostalgia. I'm your host Naomi. And there are not enough words to describe this artist as she is one of the most important people in pop music of all time, Madonna. Now, when I thought about doing an episode of Madonna, I'm like, oh my goodness, like, there's so much ground to cover, right? How where do you even begin? Well, I thought maybe we'll do in Madonna album here and there. But I reached out to one of the greatest Madonna podcasts. There are out there, M.L. VC podcast. And one of the hosts there, Stefan was happy to come and join me and tell you what's happening in Madonna album. Now, I'm not going to do a Wikipedia moment for this because that would be like an hour long. She has accomplished so much in her amazing incredible career. All I'm going to do is say a few words about Madonna in the 90s. And it starts with [MUSIC] And so, so, so, so much more she accomplished in that decade. Welcome Stefan to the show. Let's talk Madonna. Welcome Stefan. It's so nice to meet you. I was going to say to you as well, but those who don't know, that is Madonna's full initials. Yes. Madonna Louise Veronica Chaconi. Exactly. You know, when you look at Madonna on Wikipedia, they don't include the Veronica. I believe it's her confirmation name. So say it's, I don't think it's technically part of her birth certificate. But yeah, her Catholic confirmation name was Veronica. Good. I'm so glad that you were the person I'm talking to today because I think you're quite an expert on all things Madonna. I'm so I want to make sure that I am not a Madonna expert. I am just a very long term passionate Madonna fan. So, I mean, I get facts and figures wrong all the time. I mean, I've been a fan of hers since I was a kid, you know, it was, I was at a birthday party in grade school and the parents put on Madonna's Virgin Tour, Betamax. So that's how long ago that was a Betamax. They put her Virgin Tour and she came down the stairs to sing "Dress You Up" and it was, it's been love ever since. That's amazing. That's amazing. And then, how would your parents feel like they were okay with you being in some Madonna? They weren't like, "Oh, this is too graphic too." So I was raised by my mom and she, I don't know if she was, she chaperoned me to my very first Madonna concert because that was 1990s "Blonde Ambition Tour" and her and one of my friends' moms took me and my friends and because it was, there was word on the street, you know, like she's doing all these salacious activities on tour. And, I mean, in hindsight, now you look back and you're like, it was nothing. Like, why was everyone making a huge stink out of this? But yeah, at the time, it was, you know, looking out, Madonna's getting nasty on the bed, but yeah. So, and then obviously, I mean, for the sex book, which came out, I was, I was, you know, you had to be 18 and we were in 18 when it came out. So we couldn't, we had to, I got it for a friend for her birthday, me and three friends, like, fooled money to get it for her. And we had to ask somebody to buy the book in the store for us and then he came out and we gave him the money. And I mean, it was like, you know how the kids stand outside of like a 7/11 and ask adults, can you get me beer? Yes, that was sort of like what we did, but it was like the gayest thing ever, you know, like we're standing outside of like a Walden books in a mall and being like, excuse me, sir, can you get us the Madonna sex book? Here's $50, you know. And I was, I remember being so nervous because, you know, $50 when you're in high school back in the, oh god, back in 1990, '91, whenever, that was a lot of money, you know. And so we were like directly outside of the bookstore because I was like, I'm not, he's not running out without this book. So it was all fine. It is exactly like booting bootlegging. And it was funny too because I remember going into the bookstore and they're actually being a copy on the shelves that wasn't in the foil. So you were able to look at it. Doing the look around making sure nobody was watching me open the book. I was surprised there was a preview there, honestly. Yeah, I'm surprised because the whole point of it was to just keep it like sealed and scandal, you know, exactly. Yeah, well, I had my first peek and I was like, whoa, it was a little much for my young, young brain at the time, but, but I got into her around the eight. Well, it was around the time the Immaculate collection came out. Sure. Well, of course, because that was, I mean, still to this day is one of like hands down the best greatest hits collections to ever have been released, you know, like, it capitalized on so many of her enormous hits from the eight. And then pushed the envelope a little bit further, you know, like, it not only did it include all of her 80s hits and then Vogue, which was one of her, I mean, had just been released, you know, like Vogue could come out in the spring of 1990 and Immaculate collection came out that Christmas. And the she tacked on justify my love and rescue me so it was like kind of audacious for her to be like, here's my greatest hits, which includes two new songs that you've never heard, you know, like, it's kind of funny that she was that ball Z to be like, yep, these are going to be called greatest hits as well. But I think that started something because there are a few artists that do that now. Totally, I don't yeah, I don't know for sure if people were doing that before Madonna. I was very sort of like, I had sort of like horse blinders on when I was as a Madonna fan back then because I because I was so obsessed with her. And like she, I mean, look, I loved other artists, you know, like, I love the Janet Jackson. I love, I mean, I listened to everything song Peppa, like, whatever was on the radio, you know, in the late 80s, early 90s, that's, I was listening to that as well. But Madonna was always like the one that got my attention the most. And I'm, I mean, God bless her back in the 80s and early 90s, like that was such a great time to be a Madonna fan because it was constant output from her, you know, like, she was constantly putting out music constantly. It was every year, there was something from her. And so you didn't have to wait very long, which was great. And you know, like, now, it's like, come on Madonna, it's been five years since your last album, what's happening, you know, like, you never had to wait that long before. Madonna Drowd, it's been, this is the longest time she's gone since releasing an album 2019 to now it's the longest time she's ever gone. So yeah, we're Madonna fans are a bit thirsty, but I'm not, not in the late 80s, early 90s, like that was like free for all Madonna whenever, you know, I don't think many artists can claim to have accomplished as much in one decade as Madonna did between movies and music. She was busy work I miss, there's, I mean, look, I get it she's like astronomically busy now with family, you know, she has kids, and she's running an empire so it's very, very different, you know, like back in the 80s and early 90s. It was just her, you know, she didn't really have to worry about a family of kids and what they were doing so there was it was a very different work ethic I think back then so I, but I always. Lesser and I'm so thankful that she gave us that wonderful tour celebration tour that just wrapped up but I miss work horse Madonna where it felt like there was just something all the time, all the time, but I also, you know what. Sorry, I'm talking in circles because it as it comes to me, it was a very different time back then in the late 80s early 90s we didn't have social media, you know, it was, we got our news from either the paper. A magazine, or like entertainment tonight, you know, so I think now we're so used to the instantaneousness of news where, like before we just started recording. She posted a story on our Instagram so it's like, you're so used to like the knowing what they're doing and if they're not doing something today, you're like what's happening where is she what's going on. But you know back in the day I mean, you could go a month without hearing from her or knowing you know like you would just have to listen to that song over and over and over again and just wait until you heard, you know, an interview from her or a magazine profile from her. So yeah, it's just that I think the times are very, very different now like we want instantaneous gratification and if we don't have it like right now, you know, like it's like the end of the world, no. No, I totally forget where you're coming from with that. And I think the constant product from her back then too is I feel like she always felt like even though she was on top of the world. She always had more to do, like she always felt that she had more to do that she's never actually accomplished or completed any goals, you know, there's no end in sight for the things that she wanted out of her career. And I think that kept her motivated. Totally. Yeah, I 100% agree that she, the drive was very different back then than it is now, you know, like, I mean, she just did celebration tour commemorating 40 years of her career. You've been doing something for 40 years, 10 to 1, you've pretty much probably done everything that you originally set out to do. So I'm sure the challenge for her now is what, like how to find something that excites her, how to find something that, you know, because a lot of people like they want her to do music music videos, they want her to do songs. And again, I'm not opposed to any of that. But when you think about it, like, how often do you do your day job and how often does like that just become automatic and you want to find stuff that still invigorates you and excites you in your job. But there are tasks and stuff that you're like, up gotta do another presentation again. It's maybe not as exciting as it used to be. And, you know, so I think for her, like, to do those things over and over and over again just recording a song. Well, you know, she's done how many albums, how many songs, how many music videos. It's just not, it doesn't, maybe it just doesn't hit the same way, you know, like, I think she's gotta be invested in a way. It needs to mean something as opposed to just like, I'm just going to do a song. Oh, yeah, it has to. When you've done it all already. Yeah, talking about your podcast, MLVC. What's one of the more exciting episodes that you did, a favorite episode for you or fun guests that you've had? Oh, so we started the show back in April of 2019. And when we started, we were like, oh, we'll just talk about Madonna, you know, it'll just be conversations. But I think we also knew that if we needed to sort of shape the show to be a little bit different. So we were like, well, let's start interviewing people. So I think sometimes a lot of the interviews that we've been able to get have been really have been really fun. I mean, we've been able to speak to, you know, cast members from her blonde ambition tour that were part of Truth or Dare. I mean, I did a girly show 30th anniversary reunion of her, the girly show tour. That was last year. I mean, we were able to speak to Steven Bray, who was one of her co collaborators on, you know, like pop down preach and express yourself and like huge hit into the groove. You know, I think it's just like there's been, if you had told me back, you know, seeing her at the blonde ambition tour in 1990 that one day you're going to be able to talk to all the people that are on that stage. Or that you're going to be able to talk to people who, you know, worked on the music with her or choreographed that tour, or that I would have been like, no, there's no way, you know, like it would have seemed too crazy. But that's sort of like the world that I live in now where it's like, they like will message me every now and again just to like check up on something or ask me a question and it's kind of surreal to think that that happens. So yeah, I mean, I don't, I, it's picking a favorite guest of the show would be like picking a favorite child like I don't know how I would do that. I will say though, that the last, when Madonna started her celebration tour last October, I had originally thought I would just do a couple tour reviews, you know, like speak to people who were seeing the show in Europe because we weren't getting the tour right away. And I just ended up started like every week, I was talking to people over and over and over again and I think we ended up doing about so she had done 81 shows in total for the celebration tour and I think I was able to speak to or review 64 of those so not every show and not every city, but it was a lot and that's impressive. Yeah, that was fun, mostly just because it was such a different thing like talking to random people. I mean, usually I'm super prepared for my show where I'll be like, if I know I'm interviewing a guest, I'll make sure that we have their bio, I'll make sure that I have questions prepared and this, you know, like I do a little bit of research, but with the tour recaps, I was literally just talking to Madonna fans who like either reached out to me and I had a moment or I'd reached out to them and be like, hey, can you review the tour tonight after the show and they'd be like, sure. And so we just hop on zoom and it'd be so spontaneous. And it was kind of freeing and fun to be able to talk to people without notes, you know, like I was just like, all right, we're just going to make it up as we go. And you're getting them fresh off the excitement too because it's still just happened. So, yeah, so there was a bit of a heightened high to them and so I think that I mean that's been fun a lot. Our most recent episode we just put out with director Susan Sidelman who directed Madonna in desperately seeking Susan. So we finally got to speak to her. And that was a thrill to be able to speak with her and talk to her about her book so. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I love all our guests. I'm always just thankful people want to talk at all, you know. It's true. Isn't it a blessing? Yeah. Is there a lot of competition in podcasts regarding Madonna? Are there many out there? So, yeah, you wouldn't believe like people are like, so you've been podcasting about Madonna for six years. Is there really that much to talk about? I'm like, yeah, she's, she's still going, you know, like with new kids. And you know, like, and KOTB, it's not like they didn't just stop it step by step, you know, like they, they're, they're still going and they're still doing things. And so, yeah, of course, you can still talk about Madonna because she's, yeah, I mean, she just performed to one and a half million people in the beach of Rio de Janeiro, you know, like, that's a huge thing. So, um, there are a couple other Madonna podcasts some have started and then stopped. One, I think there's two others that are still going. One's a Spanish language. One. Santa Madonna, I believe it's called. And then there's another one or two. I wouldn't say we're in competition because I think everyone sort of brings their own. We've had a bunch of the other hosts from the other Madonna podcasts on our show because I sort of wanted to sort of show to the world. Like, look, just because we're a Madonna podcast and they're a Madonna podcast doesn't mean we can't get along. You know, like, it's, it, there's more, there's more than enough room in the world for more than one Madonna podcast because everyone has their own perspectives and thoughts. And I think, you know, some of the shows do a big deep dive in a chronological order of her music. Whereas I, as interesting as that is, and we do talk about her music as it comes up, you know, sometimes like, like a prayer just celebrated 35 or 40 years and blanking on the, I think it was 35 years. And we, so we did a deep dive on the album, but like, I didn't want to do every episode in like a chronological order, like this album and then that album and this and then this and then like, because she was doing stuff. She had had a new album come out when we launched our show and I thought, well, we have to talk about it. Like, we can't ignore current Madonna like she's doing stuff today. So we sort of made it, not that we're breaking news show, but we wanted to sort of talk and reflect that she's a current artist that she's still out there doing stuff and not just, you know, she's not just an 80s act. She's not just a 90s act, you know, like, she didn't do Vogue and then go away. Yeah. She's not comparable to other. Sorry. Sorry. She's not comparable to other artists. That's what you get for smoking that pack of cigarettes before you start, right? No, I've been a good girl for many years, except with the wine, but that's a way. That's all right. A glass with a glass with dinner, right? Doesn't matter. No, I was going to say she's not comparable to any artist because of the fact of the iconic status that she's had and the path that she's created for those that came before or after her. So really what you're there will never be an end of material. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, she obviously she didn't, you know, when she started back in the 80s, she didn't sit there and say, okay, I'll be around for the next 40 years. This is the path I'm going to follow. You know, like, I'm sure it all just organically happened. And she probably wasn't thinking that far ahead. But it's true, you know, like a lot of her peers, like, you know, those 80s icons that we looked up to like Michael Jackson and Prince and George Michael and Whitney Houston. They're no longer here, you know, like they've all sadly met an untimely demise and gone way too soon. And Madonna is still standing and I think she is one of those, like, legendary people who is still, I say, remnant from the 80s because the 80s seems like it was so long ago. Like, it just, you know, like, I'll sit there and listen to some of her 80s music and I'm like, God, I remember when this was on the radio and it was new and it's so crazy to think that we've been able to live through that and that she's still doing stuff and she's still performing and so yeah, I think it's, it's fascinating that, you know, I mean, I'll go to a show and you run into these people and they are very much just a Madonna 80s fan and they're like, I hope she sings material girl. You know, like, I hope she sings like a virgin. I remember at her tour in 2019. She was only doing her new album. I think she maybe did like four or five like deep cuts. But I was like, the rebel heart. No, the one after rebel heart she did was Madam X. And so that was a very different Madonna show and there were women that I was talking to in the lobby and they were like, Oh, was she going to sing material girl and like ladies I'm sorry you're at the wrong show. Like, I'm sorry you spent some money on this. But yeah, so I think it's, you know, and I get it, you know, but like, for instance, I would never go to a new kids on the block tour unless I did my research about what they were going to be performing. You know, like any artist that I'm going to go see in concert to spend that money and invest that time. I want to find out what the deal is, you know, like, yeah, or are they a greatest hits type of act. Are they singing? Are they supporting their new album? Do I know their new album? You know, like, I don't, I mean, I guess I don't get why people would go see a show. If they're not up to speed on what the artist is currently doing. You know what I mean? Like, I think a lot of people take their music in very generically, and they know just what they've heard on the radio. They don't do any research about that artist and what they're up to. They just want to. Oh, they just hear the name and they go, yeah, they sang that. Let's go to the show. Let's get together and have a girl's night and or they don't. Something to that effect, right? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, true. I mean, I know when this is a very funny example. Wilson Phillips came to New York a few years ago, pre-COVID, and my a bunch of college friends, we were like, let's go see Wilson Phillips. And so we did. And of course, you know, Wilson Phillips are, you know, known for their stuff from the 90s, and they did sing a couple of cover songs, but we knew the cover songs. So it was like, perfect example of like, we didn't have to do any research. We just went based off of our nostalgia of what they had put out in the 90s, and it was perfect. So I guess maybe there are people who are not as avid Madonna fans as myself, and they, you know, resonated maybe with borderline or, you know, express yourself. And that is where their Madonna fandom lies. And so when they see her going on tour, they're like, let's go relive our life in the 80s. And that's what they're hoping they get out of it. So, yeah, I think there's two kinds of fan, you know. You're really, I believe like, I'll go to a Bon Jovi show, and I could like care less if I heard living on a prayer, honestly, because I've heard it so many times. But as soon as they whip out that one track that was like a deep cut, and I'm like, I can't believe they're doing this song. I'm all in, and people are going to the washer. You know. Yeah. Yeah, I always get offended. If I'm out of a data show, and there's like a certain song comes on, and then somebody gets up and leaves and I'm like, what? Like, how are you leaving during this song? You know, but yeah, I hear you like, I went to see. It was George Michael's last concert tour that he ever did. He came to New York when I was there. And my friend got a last minute ticket. And so we both were there. And I remember before the show started, I was like, Oh, I hope he does this song and I hope he does that song. And he did every song that I could have imagined that he was going to do. And I left there so satiate it. And I was like, thank you, George. Like, that was amazing. And I miss George Michael every day because he had the voice of an angel and I so desperately mishearing him do new music. But that voice just hit right. Oh, so good. It's so good. I need to like, I don't listen to some of his deep cuts all the time because then I feel like if I ever am like longing for something new, then I have that stuff that I don't listen to. Like, you know, like not wake me up early like fast love or like, you know, the big banner hits of George Michael, but I like I'll listen to the deep cut sometimes when I want to hear something new and I'm like, Oh, thank you, George. Oh, that's so nice. You can always discover new music from old music. You just have to be like, Oh, I'm going to get into this back catalog and check it out. Totally. Yeah. Or I mean, there's also songs that I am there's a little Instagram handle called Club MTV. I don't know if it's I'm blanking, but it's based on Club MTV that they used to have on MTV back in the day. And they are always showing clips from episodes with downtown Julie Brown, and she's also, you know, she's like, and now this song, and then they play it and it just throws me back to high school where I'm like, man, I have not heard this song. And yet, I'll know every single word. And then I have to put on the full song because now it's stuck in my head and I'm like, and I just I love that I love when I like you forget about a song and yet you'll still somehow like, I can't remember anything that I learned in high school geography or what we had for dinner yesterday. Yeah. However, you put on, like, money love. It's a shame. Sure. I know every single word. Yeah, it's like, how does the brain do it's a fascinating thing. It's so bizarre. Like, I wish I had that time of memory retention with work. You know, like, because I'm like, I'll be like some of my boss. I'm like, I don't know, I can't remember that. I know that was only last week, but I don't. Those brain cells are gone. And yet. Put on a salt and pepper song. Yeah. Shoop. I know everywhere. Front to back. Yeah. Well, to dive into the 90s with Madonna here, we kind of touched on the fact that you've been to the blonde ambition tour. You're very young at the time. I'm sure of it. And how many tours did you get to see of Madonna? Did you go to the girly show as well? Oh, girly show. No, I tried. And sadly, so Philadelphia, I grew up in Philadelphia and it set a very bad precedent for scalping tickets because I had very good success in scalping tickets in Philadelphia. And like, literally, I was like 14th row for Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814 concert. Like, we literally just paid $40, which I think was a lot of the time. And saw that concert. And same thing, like Paul Abdul, like when she did her first tour, we scapped tickets. Like, you would just go to the venue. You wouldn't even have to have tickets. And, you know, because this is before Ticketmaster, you could get online. Like, back in the day, you had to go wait at Ticketmaster for them to open at like either the venue or like your local mall if they had like a ticket. Oh, I've gotten good tickets at the Ticketmaster in the mall. I've slept on a mall floor for tickets. Exactly. So you appreciate. But like, so because you can never call like calling, you'd never get through. It was, you know, like, especially because you had to dial the phone. Like, God bless you if you had a rotary, but like you had to physically dial the phone. There was no redial buttons. And so getting those tickets. I always loved if you didn't get tickets right away, then you would just go to the venue and just scalp them. You know, like, they were just, they were there. So I didn't have tickets to girly show. And a friend of mine, we were in college. We took the train into New York. And we were just going to go up to the venue and see if they had me available at the box office, but a scalper intervened. And he was like, you have got tickets, $60, $60. And actually, I think he tried to upsell us. I think he was like $80. And I was like, sir, we only have $60 a piece. And because I wanted to buy merch. And so I was like, we only have $60 a piece. And so we paid him the tickets were fake. So we couldn't get in. And I was crestfallen. And like, it was the only time that's ever happened to me. And I was devastated, like, on the verge of tears. And but the only thing that saved me was that when the guy saw that our tickets were fake, he's like, sorry, these are fake tickets. See that group over there? Go stand. There's that man explaining to them. So it was like somebody from the venue explaining to these people. You know, sorry, you got scap tickets. There's nothing we can do about it. But some people in that circle had spent like $150 a ticket. So I was like, oh, we got off cheap. Like, we didn't get written for like, they got, and it was every ticket with the same seat. Like, he just, whoever the scapper was, he just printed the same ticket. Oh, terrible. It was terrible. It was terrible. So yeah, I got a t-shirt and a program and we took the dream back to college on the train and we were so upset. We went back to our dorm room and just listened to Madonna and cried. So I missed out on "Girlie Show." But like I said, having just done the 30th anniversary reunion where I got to speak to basically the entire cast and some of the musicians that made it worth it. I was like, okay, see, I didn't get to see the tour live in person, but I brought them back together 30 years later. This is the good karma coming back to you. Exactly. That was restitution. But I have seen every tour since. So I saw "Blind Ambition." I was too young to see the ones before, so I didn't get to see "Virgin Tour" or who's that girl. And "Blind Ambition" missed "Girlie Show." And then I've seen "From Drowned World" all up until celebration. And most of those shows, I've seen more than once. I think, sadly, the only one since "Drowned World," I saw "Drowned World" twice. I think I saw "Reinvention" twice. I think out of all the shows, "Confessions," which I wish I would have seen more than once. I only saw once. Like one of her most epic shows, I only saw once. And I'm like kicking myself. I'm like, why didn't I go to see "Confessions" more than once? But yeah, I think for "Rebel Heart," I saw like three or four times. And then... Got "Madamex," I think I saw like eight times because they were... You could get like $20 tickets if you messaged her team when they asked you to. So I was able to go multiple times for that. And then celebration, which just passed, I saw... Oh God, twice in Paris, Brooklyn, Washington, D.C., Philadelphia, and then two times in Austin, Texas. So... That's incredible. Yeah, I was fine. I understand and appreciate the dedication. Yeah, right? You get it? Yeah, you'll see me on the Magic Summer Tour this year. I'm doing the same thing. Are you touring with them? How long are you going? I'm going for four shows. So I'm going next week for Chicago in Detroit. I'm coming home for a week and then going to California for San Jose and Sacramento. So... Fun. Do they know you? Do they know you? Do they know you? Donnie does, I think. Oh, yes, he does. Donnie knows everybody. He's just got a good memory. I don't know enough about how new kids tour. Are they... Do they do fan stuff after the show where like the meet and greets or do they bring fans up on stage ever? The meet and greets are always before the show. Okay, smart. So they look like... The regular V. Yeah, so we make our own photo groups because we have to go in groups of 10, so each... There's two girls standing with each guy. So that part can be a little stressful because everybody wants to stand with Donnie or everybody wants to stand with Jordan. You know, but so once you do that, then they do the individual meet and greet, which is... There's 10 per show and you and the five guys get to hang out and do pictures and everything. Oh, that's fun. Oh, that's good. I got one in Chicago. My very first time. Did you... Didn't they do a cruise, too? Weren't they on a cruise ship? Where they were like... You're wearing the shirt. Yes, I see it right now. Yeah, I just went on the last two of them. And what was that like? It's hot. It's fantastic. It's a party every night. And they're very involved with being out there and doing stuff with the fans. So it's not just seeing them in a concert and then that's about it. You go back to your room or they go away and they don't see you for until the next night. They do the meet and greets with everybody on the boat. They do the concerts. They take selfies with as many people as possible. They do a game show. There's some... And then there's a themed party every night. And they're out there at it. Donnie doesn't sleep. Consider yourself lucky because Madonna is not like that. I know. You've had the opportunity to meet her? Yes. So thankfully, I have had two of... Well, I mean, I've had some very great up close and personal moments with Madonna. I was at Roxy in her 1998 surprise appearance at the Roxy Nightclub in New York promoting her "Ray of Light" album. And I stood for five hours in front of the little mini stage. And that was the first time that I had ever been. I mean, she was right in front of me. She was staring in my face and singing and touching my hand. So that was otherworldly to me because for someone to... You're worshipping this person for so many years. And then also now she's right in front of you. Having seen the eyes on the posters on my wall and now they're right in front of my face. And I mean, I was super close in a bunch of the concerts as well. But in 2015 for the Rebel Heart Tour, she was bringing fans up on stage at every show. Sometimes it would be a celebrity, but occasionally she would bring a fan up. And in Philadelphia, I was the lucky fan who got brought up and I got to dance with her and she was holding my hand. And I am so happy that there's fantastic photos and video that people took of me while I was up there. I'm going to find it on YouTube for sure that late. But interacting with her, while I was dancing with her, I was fine because it was an activity. And I sort of like my years of theater growing up, I just went into show mode. So I was performing. People thought I was part of the show. They didn't realize I was an actual fan that just got brought up. And I had seen the show the week before, so I knew what she did with the fan. Well enough that I'd be like, "Okay, this is when I'm supposed to bend over so she can pat my butt and this is when we're supposed to turn around and give the finger." So I knew how things were meant to go. And then I had to do a little dance solo, which I was like, "I just made it up." I was like, "I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm just going to dance." But then when she started talking to me after the music ended, I started to lose my composure. Like the reality of me standing on stage talking with Madonna. I mean, we were in front of like 35,000 people and it's otherworldly that I'm now interacting with her. And she's talking to me and asking my name and this, that. And I'm like, and she had her arm around me and I had my arm around her. And then I was like, "Should I touch her?" Like I didn't know if I was allowed to touch Madonna. You know, like no one told me rules about like, "Don't touch her." It's like royalty. Yeah, totally. Exactly. And I just remember like my mouth was so dry and I just wanted the moment to keep going. I just wanted it to keep going and I didn't know how. You know, it's her show. People don't care about me. You know, like it's fun to see a fan with her, but like they want her. So I was like, "Don't be inappropriate. Don't do anything stupid and sexual." Because I just, I wanted to respect her and, you know, as a person, as a woman, as an artist. And so I just, but it was funny and it's fun to have that moment. And then in 2019 at her Madam X show every night, she would come into the audience and plunk down next to someone in the audience and talk to them for like a couple minutes. My friend and I were the lucky two that she, they sort of like pulled us into like, they put seats in the middle of the aisle. And so we came and sat down and she came off the aisle and sat in the middle of us. So it was me, Madonna, and my friend, and she was talking to us. And again, it was one of those things where it's like, I can't believe this is happening. Yes. And she was a little, she was a little, not, I want to say snarky, that's the kind word. She, because she was injured while she was performing on that show. So she was not in the best of moods sometimes. And she, she sort of like snapped at my friend, Sean. And I was like, so shocked. I was like, Oh my God, in my head, I'm thinking, I'm like, Oh my God, Madonna just yelled at Sean. And I was like, well, and then she turns to me and she has the microphone in my face. And she's like, what did you think of the show? And I was like, now, I host Madonna podcast. Do you think if Madonna asks me, what do you think of my show? I'd be like, Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'd be like, I'd have an answer at the ready. Madonna asked me, what did you think of the show? And there's all these people in the auditorium. I mean, you could hear a pin drop. And I'm just like, Stefan, in my head, I'm thinking, Stefan, just start talking, just start talking. And an answer will come to you. And so I'm like, Madonna has the microphone in my face. She's staring at me. Her eyes are just piercing, looking right through me. And I'm like, well, I think the show is like a journey. And you have to get on the train at the beginning. And all of a sudden, like, and I thought I was going somewhere. And then I just realized my mind was completely blank. And I looked at her, I was like, I'm sorry, Madonna, I have no idea where I'm going with this right now. And she's like, I have no idea where you're going with this either baby. And I was like, I'm just really nervous. And she's like, don't be nervous. She's like, it's all these people in the back being so loud. And she told them to shut the F up. And so it was kind of funny. But then I told her, because I was like, before we sat down, I was like, I have to let her know that I host a podcast about her. So I gave her my podcast business card. And I was like, I host a show about you. She didn't understand, but I was like, what? Yeah, it's a podcast dedicated entirely to you. And she's like, oh, oh, okay. And then she's like, all right, well, I have to go back to the show. So yeah, so it was kind of funny. But yeah, that's so those are my, like, up close. I mean, I also was able to walk alongside of her. She did a performance in Harlem. Back in, oh God, after COVID before COVID, 2019, 2019, maybe it was after, it was after Madam X. And she, yeah, before COVID in the fall of 2019. And she ended the show in the little club and then took us out on the streets of Harlem at like one in the morning for this. And then what John Baptiste, the piano player, he calls them a love parade. And so like, we were all literally marching on the street with Madonna and these musicians. And she's singing like a prayer. And I was walking sort of near her. And then all of a sudden somehow the crowd shifted and I got bumped directly next to her. For a couple minutes, just recording her and looking at and taking in her beauty and being like, just like loving the energy exchange and then just as fast as I had gotten moved to her. I like got bumped away from her and say, those are my magical, those are my magical Madonna moments. You've been so lucky. Oh my goodness. This is no, no meeting greats though, like, I, because I'm telling you, if, if Madonna was going to do a meet and great, I probably wouldn't be able to purchase one because it'd probably be like way too much money. But yeah, I've been very, very fortunate to have the experiences that I've had with her. And yeah, I could, I mean, I could die happy man knowing that I had those moments. Well, these are stories you could tell forever. It's not. It's so fun to share. Yeah, I mean, well, it's fun. It's weird because I don't even feel like it's real anymore. You know, like, it's just like, I mean, it happened so long ago and it just feels like, you know, it's just in my head. And like, I'll watch the video of me dancing with her on stage. And I'm like, that's so funny that that happened. Like, I can't even believe that it did. So. This is not a love song. My life, baby, I keep on waiting, I'm just so fated. Like, can we forever? You say you love me, you're thinking of me. But we're never together. It's a bye-bye, baby, bye-bye. It's your turn to cry. That's why we have to say goodbye. So say goodbye. Bye-bye, baby, bye-bye. It's your turn to cry. This time we have to say goodbye. So say goodbye. After these messages, we'll be right back. Hi. If you enjoy Dope Nostalgia, thank you. Consider becoming a Patreon subscriber today for as little as a dollar a month. It helps keep the show on the air and rolling. So if you want to check out our Patreon, it's at patreon.com/dopenostalgia. $1 a month, and you'll be helping support one of your favorite podcasts. Hey everybody. I'm Rick Campanelli, and you're listening to the Dope Nostalgia Podcast. Hello. This is Erotica, romance author, podcaster, sex blogger, ruin willow. Oh, yeah. With ruin willow podcast. And on my podcast, I talk about all things related to sex. Sexuality, sexual health, Erotica. I want to help you enjoy your life and have better sex. Using the tools of Erotica, Erotica Audio, and interviews talking with sexuality experts in the field of sexual health, sexuality, and sexual wellness. Come listen to my podcast. I have a wide range of topics and fiction Erotica storytelling. Can you give me a name, guys? Heyyyy! Truth is where you find it. Get up and bump. Truth is where you find it. Get up and bump. Dr. King, Malcolm X, freedom of speech is as good as sex. Abe, Lincoln, Jefferson, Tom, they didn't need the atomic bomb. We need beauty, we need art, we need music. Get in rhythm. Don't give up your freedom of speech. Powers of the people is in our reach. Don't just sit there. Let's get to it. Speak your mind. There's nothing to it. Vote. And if you don't vote, you're going to get a spanky. Cut. With you I'm not a little girl. With you I'm not a man. When all the hurt inside of me comes out, you understand. You see that I'm ferocious. You see that I am weak. You see that I am silly. I'm pretentious. I'm a freak. But I don't feel too strange for you. Don't know exactly what you do. I think when love is pure, you try to understand the reasons why. And I prefer this mystery. It cancels out my misery. And gives me hope that there could be a person that loves me. You see that I am weak. Your love has given me hope. You see that I am true. I'm drowning. I'm drowning. I thought of a few things that were specific moments in her timeline in the '90s that were big deals in her career. Yes. And I wanted to start with the release of Justify My Love. Yes. Huge. Huge. Yes. Justify My Love, I think, was the first time. I mean, obviously we had the like a prayer controversy because, you know, in '89 when that came out. That was a big deal because of the burning crosses and the interracial kiss with her and the black priest and like the stigmata on her hands. Like that created a stir, but that video was still played and that song was a huge hit and is still iconic Madonna. But I think when Justify My Love came out, it just sort of showed how prudish America is because, you know, that was based on sex. And MTV didn't want to play it. I think I heard it on the radio definitely, but like it sort of petered out. Like it didn't have the long, like when would you ever hear Justify My Love on the radio today? Like no one ever would play that. You go to a supermarket, you hear Madonna like borderline, you know, like Cherish. Cherish. Yeah. Cherish is such a supermarket song. So it's a totally, you can always hear like there's certain like drugstores or supermarkets or like Joanne's fabrics, you know, like you'd go into those. You're going to hear the like family friendly Madonna songs. But Justify My Love. You are not going to hear that anywhere. You're just not. But that was the first time I remember. It was like, even as a Madonna fan, I remember thinking, what's going on right now? What's happening with this? And I mean, I thought it was a ballsy move and looking back, I'm like, that's F and cool. That's what she did with that. But I remember when it was happening that it was like, Madonna, what's going on? Like it was a little weird and to see her in that sort of like, you know, going from these beautiful polished videos, express yourself. Vogue to then this very 180 turn and it's gritty and grimy and she looks a little disheveled. And who are all these weird people in the background? And oh, no, she's kissing a woman now. Like it was just very strange to take it all in. And then the backlash too. Like that was one of like just another time where as a Madonna fan, you had to get used to defending her. Like it became very exhausting having to love this artist and then also like every family meeting. Oh, did you see what Madonna, why do you like her? You know, like you were constantly having to defend that fandom. And I mean, I guess you could lie or not be a fan anymore. But yeah, that between Vogue and Justify My Love, that was a very auspicious kickoff to Madonna in the 90s for sure. It was huge. It was parodied on Wayne's World. Not even parodied on SNL. It was more like Madonna was invited to be a part of it. She did the video with the boys and it was a fantastic promo for her. Oh, I think it was great damage control from her team because they were able to sort of show you like, well, that's, she's just, it's a video. Like it's not her, you know, like, and she sort of turned the tables on it, you know, like she was parrying herself, you know, like it was, she was poking fun at it herself. She showed that she had a sense of humor about herself and also the fact that what is everybody getting so worked up about? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, I remember that we couldn't watch it on much music in Canada. It had been banned and somehow my friends and I got it out of the video store. They had it on VHS tapes where you could rent it and we somehow pulled off renting it. I don't know how we did that, but we did. We were like, and then we've learned to that. Lenny Kravitz is singing in the song. I think he's a co-writer. Yeah, so, well, so that was part of the controversy of Justify My Love that didn't come out until much after the fact. So Ingrid Chavez was the woman who wrote the song and Lenny Kravitz took that song from her and did not credit her and tell Madonna that that's what happened. It was a huge ordeal. So we had Ingrid Chavez, the woman who wrote the song on our show, and she had said when that happened, it really disheartened her and demotivated her to want to keep going in the music industry because it had been such a big deal. Like this euphoric moment. Oh, I've wrote in the song and now it's been taken to Madonna and then she didn't get any credit for it. She did after the fact, but it took years and lawsuits. And again, it wasn't something like Madonna wasn't aware that that was what was happening. Like Lenny did it on his own and sort of like took it from Ingrid and didn't tell Madonna. And that's a shame that it happened. But Ingrid now, she recorded a cover of that song, like two years ago, Justify My Love, just sort of reclaim that for herself. You know, she's like, I'm going to take a negative and take it back so. Yeah, I'm glad. And I bet you Madonna would be very supportive of her. Oh, for sure. As a songwriter herself. You know, understanding that like that was, she probably feels felt terrible about it. Yeah. Well, and I also think Justify My Love stylistically took Madonna in a very different direction that she would sort of then stick with for a huge chunk of the 90s, which is Madonna talking during a song, you know, so not only did she, you know, speak through most of Justify My Love. And then she also did Speaking on Rescue Me, which was part of Immaculate Collection. Then when you get to Erotica, which is the next album that I'm wearing my D to my D to T shirt today. You'll miss just tonight. Exactly. There was so much of Madonna doing spoken word in Erotica and some of the other songs waiting and I think waiting is my favorite song on Erotica. Oh, it's so good. I mean, I, I'm a very hard breast to pick a favorite off of Erotica because it sometimes depends on the mood that I'm in like, you know, like, yeah, it's depends like it's a rainy cloudy day put on rain. If it's, yeah, it's going out night put on Erotica, you know, put on fever. Yeah, and there's, I just love that I always remember. There was a haunted mansion that they were doing in Philadelphia and Erotica never got played on the radio in Philly, like they just never played it. And I was, I was like, why, why are they not playing Erotica. We were waiting the line to get into the haunted mansion that that October. And that was the very first time I got to hear deeper and deeper. They played it on the radio and I just remember thinking I'm like, this, this is Madonna, but it sounded like it sounded so club and so dance. And I was very happy. I was happy because I'm always a fan of Madonna dance music and she didn't disappoint me with that so. I remember a deeper and deeper. I remember Udo, the actor Udo here. He's been in at least, I think to Madonna videos. Isn't she? Is he a bad girl as well? No, that's Christopher Walken. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. But I know I remember him being in deeper and deeper. We were just watching a movie the other day and I'm like, it's him. Madonna video. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. That's a lot of times like Madonna introduced me to things that I then would come to learn about after the fact. So like her source material, I wouldn't have seen until after I've seen what she does with it. Stuff like that and like deeper and deeper or like some of her references, it's fun to sort of like stumble upon them after the fact where you're like, oh, this is like that Madonna video. Like, no, actually, this is where Madonna got it from. You know. Another fun event was her going to the Oscars with Michael Jackson. Yes. And I love, I think that was an early example of trolling the crowd, trolling the media. I mean, if you're going to make a splash, why not show up with, you know, someone as controversial as Michael Jackson and Madonna, you know, like that's the two biggest pop stars in the world. It was time. Yeah, it was huge. I mean, that was, I mean, I remember seeing that live as it was happening and I'm like, what is going on? Like, it was crazy. And that was so mysterious about it. That was such a great moment to just in terms of like Madonna, because that performance of hers of sooner or later at the Oscars is such it is quintessential Madonna. You know, like it's her taking, you know, doing an homage to Marilyn. It's, you know, to Hollywood glamour. Her vocals sound amazing. And she does stuff. I love. I mean, we always talk about this on my show. One of our favorite moments is they do this big close up of her face and her hand is right by her face and you can just see her hand trembling with nerves. And it's funny to see that because, you know, you think, Oh, by 1990, 91 Madonna, she's on top of the world. She doesn't. She's not going to be nervous. And it just goes to show that, you know, yeah, even Madonna can still be nervous from time to time. You imagine her as this absolutely fearless woman with the most incredible amount of confidence, but she's still human. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, that was, that was quite the events. She started her own record label in 1992. That was quite successful for a artist. It was a stretch of time. Yeah. Maverick. Had we not gotten Maverick records, we would have never gotten Alanis Marisette and Prada G smack my bitch up. And what were some of your bad brains was one band. They were more of a heavy band. And Michelle Branch was signed to Maverick as well. Oh, and Michelle and the debut cello. I think as well. Yeah. A lot of good artists. Yeah, there was, well, and I love that Madonna was responsible for picking them. You know, like, that was her point was she wanted to help elevate some new town. I mean, I'm sure that like, there was a rap group called proper ground that I think she tried to launch and I don't think they went anywhere. But yeah, I mean, if anything, Alanis, you know, getting Alanis signed. That was, that was a coup. So Alanis had already been a pop star in Canada. I had met her already, actually, when I was very young. And when Jagged Little Pill came out, I was another shock about the new, the new Alanis. And I could see why Madonna would gravitate towards her because this is a woman who's trying to tear out of the confines that were placed upon her as a pop star where she had to be told what to do. Sure. You know, so I think this was the way that Alanis got her freedom and Madonna was the one to give it to her. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure Madonna gave her some money, too. She was like, hell yeah. Can you go? Yeah, I would say sooner or later would definitely have been my favorite of the songs from I'm breathless. So I think other than Vogue, and I remember when I'm breathless came out, there was a bit of disappointment for me because I thought all the songs on that were going to be like Vogue and they weren't. They were, you know, Broadway, for the most part Broadway songs. But I mean, I love that Madonna gave us, you know, and gave me an appreciation of Broadway music. I had no idea who Stephen Sondheim was until that time. So the fact that she then, you know, used some of his songs and then also wrote her own songs to sort of match his style. Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's a concept album, which is great. I mean, it's, and she sounds great. [MUSIC] Sooner or later you're gonna be mine. Sooner or later you're gonna be fine. Baby, it's time that you faced it. I always get my mind. Sooner or later you're gonna decide. Sooner or later there's nowhere to hide. Baby, it's time so I waste it in chapter. Let's settle the matter. Baby, you're mine on a ladder. I always get my mind. [MUSIC] The whole Dick Tracy movie. It was a big deal. I remember like they had a, they had a thing with McDonald's for Dick Tracy to and Happy Meals and stuff and it was a huge summer blockbuster movie. And the cast was incredible. But I feel like now people make fun of that movie. Like they just, it doesn't seem like it aged well. Yeah, so I remember, I think the problem with Dick Tracy was 1989, you had Batman with Michael Keaton and Kim Bessinger and Prince did the theme song. And that movie came out, Jack Nicholson is the Joker, and it was huge. Batman was everywhere. And that was like the first like tent pole, summer blockbuster where like it came out and it was everywhere. And I mean, that was back in the day when movies were around for months. I mean, I think Batman came out in like May and you could still go see it in the theaters at the end of August. Like it was there all summer long. Like now you get a movie before like two weeks and then it gets out of the theaters. But I think when Dick Tracy came out the following summer, a lot of people thought it was going to be like Batman. It was going to have that like, and it was just very stylistically different. It was also a period piece. So whereas like Batman was a current sort of cooler current movie. Dick Tracy was very period piece, you know, like 1950s and Broadway style music, whereas, you know, like Prince was scoring Batman. So stylistically different from each. And then, of course, Dick Tracy was just a detective. He's not a superhero. So like, there was no like clever gadgets. I mean, I love that movie because I think it's beautiful to watch. The cinematography is gorgeous. Madonna looks amazing. I mean, and there's like the cast. Yeah, like Glenn Headley, like R.I.P. Glenn Headley. You know, like there's some like Dustin Hoffman's in that Al Pacino, you know, like Mandy Patankin, like, yeah, and beautiful performances. But it's just a very different movie. It's not quite as cool as Batman was. So I think that's why it hasn't quite gotten like the love as it grows older, but maybe it's more of a cult classic then. I love it. I mean, if it's on, you know, like it becomes on Netflix, I'm like, oh, I'm going to watch Dick Tracy. Mostly because I love Madonna in the movie. Like, she's beautiful and I love her. And I'm happy that she was at that because that was a great role for her. You know, she's always known for not picking amazing roles or not being an amazing movie project. So at least we got a really great role for her in that. Yeah. I mean, there's a movie coming up in the conversation that she finally got some recognition for her skills. But I'm just going through the list of the albums that came out and picking some stuff right now bedtime stories, of course. Yep. Fall of 1994, '95. I think it was '94. Yes. Yeah. October 25, 1994, I believe. And I loved that album. I love bedtime stories. 90s Madonna was great because I just felt like every time she had an album, it just really hit the mark. Like, even though Erotica had a little bit of a rough start, that is one of my all-time favorite Madonna albums. To me, it's basically a no skip. You know, there's so many great tracks on that. And what she did with the sound of that record where she took pop and elevated it to the dance floor, which is something that people weren't doing at that time, was great. And it's so like house and grimy. And then she just switches the style again on bedtime story, and she does R&B, but it's beautiful R&B. And it felt so organic and natural for her. And to lead with "Secret" as the first single, which was so unexpected because it was very like, just kind of like a down-tempo song. Yeah. Very different, just such a different choice. And I think also, it was very quiet, you know, it was... I was shocked, honestly. That was my shock value out of that album was that that was the lead off single. Yeah. Something's coming over, something's coming over, something's coming over, something's coming over me, my baby's got a secret. Really, that good paradise, let it go. I lost hope of earth. You helped me find the reason why you took me by surprise that you've understood. You knew I'm alone, but I never wanted to say. Until I learned to love myself, I was never, never loving anybody else. Happiness lies in your own hands. You took me much too long to understand how it could be, until you were shaking your heart. I was expected something closer to being like human nature, which was a single down the road. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I love all the singles from that because every video was so different and so inventive. And just pieces, like they were works of art. You know, like when you look at the singles that she had put out, they were secret. Melody McDaniel was the director of that video and his beautiful black and white, I mean, gorgeous black and white shot in the streets of Harlem. And then you've got, and she looked, I love her styling for that video because she's got that nose ring and that smokey eye and that white blonde hair. And like she's just wearing that like really like beautiful like sort of sparkly outfits with like touches of like faux fur and like I just, that's so beautiful. You think she was trying to soften her image a little bit after all that? Oh, totally. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think she knew, I think she, I don't know if she was told that that's what she needed to do. But I definitely think, you know, I mean, she kept her clothes on in all those video. Well, no, I was going to say take a bow. She's rolling around in bed with the television in her, in her, in her underwear. But again, it was, it was safe. It was, you know, like it wasn't, it wasn't scandal sex. It was. And again, Michael, Michael, Michael Hausmann, Michael Hausmann, I think was the director of take a bow, you know, shot in Spain. And it was beautiful, beautiful. I mean, she looked gorgeous. And then bedtime story by Mark Raminick, you know, where it's like, it's insane. It's insane. It's insane. And then human nature. By Jean Baptiste Monteino. And those, I mean, that's, those are art. Those are art pieces. I think that's what people sort of, if you hear people today, they're like, I wish Madonna would get back to making music videos. That's what they're talking about. Those are the videos that are like, there's just, you know, huge banner, iconic, beautiful moments. But I mean, to do a video like those these days, I mean, they'd be so expensive. So bedtime story was a million dollars when they were doing it. Like, I can't imagine how much money they'd have to do to do it now. You know, I'm real. And I think my favorite track on bedtime stories would be I'd rather be your lover with Michelle. So that, that was originally meant to be a duet with Tupac. Michelle in that and swapped him out. I don't know if it was a licensing, like maybe his record label didn't want him when didn't want to share him or who knows what, but, or maybe Madonna wanted to promote a Maverick artist instead. Yeah, if you can Google the demo, I'd rather be your lover. And it's her and Tupac are on that. That's right. I'd rather be your lover. I used to cry. Yeah, I'd rather be your lover. I'd rather be your lover. Yeah, I'd rather be your lover. I mean, I was obsessed with all of them. And I also loved that we got really great remixes from Madonna in the 90s with those albums too. Like, that's when she started really like upping her game by by Erotica. The remixes were amazing, but like bedtime story, it was just so like through them through the roof. When you go through your Spotify playlist, or you go to the Madonna discography, the amount of remixes from that decade is insane. It's great. They knew what they were doing though. They knew like, okay, let's get her and let's get her played in the clubs. That's her audience. And they, yeah, I was smart. They went on to a ray of light. Fantastic album. And I think this is one of the first times where critics took her seriously, like music critics were actually sick, giving her her props. Yeah, yeah, it was nice to see. I mean, I never discount Madonna, you know, like even when people are like, oh, it's a comeback. I'm like, she doesn't leave. Yeah, but I do feel like that when she came out with ray of light that was like people sat up and took notice again. And the music again, she took a left and invited us into a whole different, sonically different sound for her. And again, to lead off with basically an electro ballad with frozen. I mean, that was such a, you know, and it was haunting and mysterious and weird. Gorgeous song. Gorgeous. And like, just the production value from William Orbit to have all these warbles and blurbs and the beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, like all these like deep bass and clattering drums to pair it with that video of her in the desert. And it's just, it's fascinating. And I was obsessed, obsessed with that album. And I remember, so as I was mentioning, the first time I got to see her up close was in 1998, she did a surprise performance at the Roxy nightclub in New York. I had found it out about it the week before he had to get tickets in the club. So I went, got tickets and had to come back the following week. It was on Valentine's Day. It was called the fire and ice ball. And I stood for five and a half hours waiting for her to come out because I was like, if I'm going to see Madonna in a nightclub, I'm not moving from this spot. So, I mean, literally all night, people are out dancing and drinking and this and me and my friend were just standing there waiting and waiting and about 2 a.m. She found nobody believed she was coming out. Everyone figured, oh, it's going to be a drag queen. And when she came out, she had a veil over her head. And so again, we all thought it was like a drag queen. But when she lifted the veil off her head and you could see her face, suddenly everyone in the nightclub wanted to be exactly where I was. And it was this like immense push up against the security gates and like me and this guy next to me. We had to put our arms around my friend who was this small woman. And we were like, so she wouldn't get crushed. We had to like lock arms around her so that way we could protect her. But I remember when, so she only sang three songs from Ray of Light. She sang Chantie, Sky fits Heaven. And then she closed with an 11 minute version of Ray of Light, which I think there's an 11 minute or a 10 and a half minute remix version of it. And basically that was sort of like the version of Ray of Light that she performed that night. And I remember hearing Ray of Light for the first time because you'd never heard any of the songs that she performed. We'd only heard Frozen. So she sang these songs. And I was like, what are these songs? What are these songs? And then she sang Ray of Light. And I was like, it was one of the most glorious songs I'd ever heard. And she was playing air guitar and like it was, it was fantastic. And so yeah, I was obsessed with Ray of Light, the song, the video. Yeah, it was a great time to be a Madonna fan because not again, like I had said, you get so used to having to defend your fandom and defend Madonna. And that time you didn't, like it was so wonderful. You didn't have to defend Madonna. Everyone was like, I love Madonna. And you were like, what? Oh, just so. It was nice. It was like everyone's finally coming around. I was very much into that album as well, but I also remember my favorite track was The Power of Goodbye. Oh, I mean, come on. Anytime you get dark haired Madonna. I mean, and she looks so good in that video. So good. Oh, and her and Gorin Vincik. One of the things I always loved about Madonna, you had all these other pop stars putting hot guys in their video. They never did anything with them. It was like Mariah Carey was with all these hot men. She'd just sort of like be bopping around next to them. Madonna, she would like tongue kiss every guy in her video. And I was like, yes, Madonna. Yes. And like, there she is with Gorin Vincik in that video for Power of Goodbye. And it's like a minute long kiss. Like they're just like the camera is just swirling around while her and Gorin Vincik are just like slapping spit, loved it, loved it. That's true. She wasn't afraid to release any guy. Like every guy that she had in her video, like if Madonna doesn't make out with them in the video, it's like, what's happening here? Well, the same was sex the book, you know, just she was dating vanilla ice around that era, apparently. Yes. Maybe not one of her better decisions. Hot photos with vanilla ice, but yeah, I'm like, he's a little, well, he seems a little shady. It was a 90s thing, you know, like, I guess it was a big daddy cane in it too. Yeah, Naomi Campbell was hot. Yeah, there was some. Oh, Uda was in the book. That's maybe that's what you're thinking. So he was in deeper and deeper and he was in the book as well. So when I look at the book now, I can see it as the art it was intended to be totally. Oh, and there's some gorgeous photos in that book, like, gorgeous, beautiful. And then there's some photos you were like, oh, I don't know about this, but for the most part, like a lot of them are absolutely heavenly, beautiful. Yeah, I love, I love taking out my sex book every now and again, like, usually on the anniversary, just because that binding is so it's still so clunky and terrible. But that spiral binding, like it's you have to work to keep it to keep it together. But yeah, I'm going down to pun intended keep it together. And but yeah, it's I like to sort of page through it and just be like, oh, these are beautiful photographs. I would love that as a coffee table book now. If I ever find another copy, like I've not seen one in a bookstore ever, but if I really expensive. Well, I think it depends on where you get them. Like, I bet you there's some stuff. I bet you there's a copy sealed somewhere in some like middle America bookstore that like somebody forgot about it. And like, you could probably get it for like cheap and then sell it for tons of money. Somebody had a bunch of they were going to burn an unopened version of the sex book would be worth so much money right now, an original. But you can see all the pictures online. Yeah, exactly. You could there's a PDF online. You don't need the book. And as we were talking about the era where Madonna was finally getting her do her respect that was owed. I would say, let's go into a Vita. Well, I mean, I think that was like a proper way to end the 90s for her, you know, it was. She was on the verge of becoming a mom. And she. Well, sorry, if you became before rave light, but. But yeah, like she she was pregnant while she was filming it. And I mean, she's great in that role. It's the same that she didn't win an Oscar for that. I really think she deserved it. I mean, she won the Golden Globe. And I mean, she's great, like. The movie may be a little plotting here or there, but it's so opulent and so gorgeous and she's fantastic in that and sounds great. And I remember years after they brought a Vita to Broadway and it was Ricky Martin was in it and oh. I had gotten tickets to a show and of course it was. Right after the Tony's had happened and Ricky Martin didn't win. So that my ticket was for the next day and Ricky Martin. Like didn't show up. So they had like a stand in for him in the role because he was like, I'm not doing the show anymore. No, I didn't win a Tony. So he didn't show up and the woman playing a Vita was so shrill and I thought, Oh my God. I have to go home and listen to Madonna's Evita soundtrack immediately to wash that sound out of my head because. Oh, wow. The woman on Broadway was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. So yeah, Madonna, I know that Pat LaPone originated it and there's been other Vida's since Madonna or before Madonna. But yeah, now Madonna is my Vita. That's right. Eva. Is it pronounced Eva Perot or Eva Perot? I think they say Eva in the movie. I can confuse with that name sometimes. Jan, a couple other movies that were. Well, obviously truth or dare was a documentary. Yep. I mean, yes, it's a Madonna movie, but I don't count that as like a performance movie because it's a documentary. So, but yeah, she's playing herself. Yeah, exactly. A League of their own. Great. Love it. And we get this used to be my playground, a fantastic 90s ballad, which again, so that I loved that like we get this used to be my playground sort of like soften her again after the chaos of. Erotica, even though this used to be my playground was recorded around during the erotic album. So it's detestinging on that song, even though it's, it's sad and wispy. This is why she's the reinvention creation that she is because she can do it all. Body of evidence. Ooh, camp classic. You can't watch that and take it seriously. It's truly amazing that a movie like that was able to get made. I mean, that obviously, when you think back to that timing, basic instinct, you know, was out the year before they were looking to capitalize on that type of movie. And I think Madonna really wanted to make a movie as amazing as basic instinct. And it just, it's a courtroom drama. You know, like it's too slow and boring. Nobody wants to, you know, we don't want Madonna in a courtroom drama. We don't, you know, like that's just sitting there. You know, like we even, I mean, even the sex scenes in body of evidence are kind of like, what's happening? You know, like, at least it's not hot. No, at least in basic instinct, they were kind of sexy and hot and like it was a good, basic, because basic instinct was a thriller. Body of evidence is a drama. It's like, it's basically a courtroom drama with some like scandalous, but it's, yeah, it's just, it wasn't directed well. The sex felt kind of clinical. Yeah, yeah, for sure. There was a movie too that was released that I never remembered called Dangerous Game. We just reviewed Dangerous Game on my podcast. The, yes, it's Madonna. It's some of her finest acting that she's ever done in that movie. But the director, he edited that movie so terribly. It's just awful. Like he just, I wish that in like a perfect world, somebody could re-edit that movie and make it better. But yeah, the version, even Madonna was disappointed. Like she did no promotion for it. Maverick had produced that movie. So there was, their money was on the line, but like Madonna did no promotion for it. She didn't talk about it. No interviews, nothing. But funnily enough, LA Times, New York Times, they actually gave a good reviews for it. So it's, it's a tough movie to watch because it's very misogynist and Madonna gets sucked around it. It gets sucked around a lot in the movie. And it's just, it's a tough content. Why is like the story? It's just, it's not kind to her. But her performance is fantastic, fantastic. I think she's proven time and time again that she deserves everything that she's worked for. And whether you love her or you hate her, she's an icon, a legend, and she paved the way for so many ladies in this business. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's, it's a blueprint for how to do pop shows, for how to do marketing for an album. You know, I mean, when you look at how people roll out albums now, it's like, oh, yeah, Madonna did that, you know, years ago. And I'm pretty sure she made the majority of the choices. Like, she's not the, I don't think she's the type to be told what to do. No, she was in charge. That was, that was the beauty of it. You know, like she, she was, and I think that's why she owned it. You know, like if, if she was getting attacked by the critics or whatnot, she owned it, you know, because that was her choice. She made that decision, you know. Yeah. Well, this stuff and it has been so amazing. You're an incredible guest. Thanks so much fun talking to you. Me as well. Thanks for, I'm sorry. We've gone long, long overdue on time, but I don't care because honestly, how can you do a short episode about Madonna? Yeah, I know. It's especially 90s Madonna. You know, it's, it's impossible. We tried to cover all the, the more important points. So thank you for helping me with that. You're welcome. Social media. Yeah, we've got it. Send us an email. Dope Nostalgia podcast at gmail.com. Twitter, Nostalgia, Dope. Or on Insta, Dope, Underscore, Nostalgia. This podcast is licensed by SoCan because we believe that artists should be paid for their work. Hey friends, I kind of miss getting those messages on my answering machine like these two back in the day. What I'd really love is to hear from you, the listeners of Dope Nostalgia. This is your chance to be on the show giving feedback, telling us what you love, what you hate, and who you'd like to see more of. Call us at our new toll free number 1-888-741-9192. Leave us some feedback. Your message could be played on the show. 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