The Duran Podcast
Can Germany be saved? w/ Jeffrey Sachs (Live)
all right we are live with Alexander Mercuris and once again joining us on the Duran we have the fantastic Jeffrey Sachs how are you doing Professor Sachs well like we all are we're trying to get day-to-day but happy to be with you guys it's great to have you with us I have the links where you can follow Professor Sachs including his excellent websites where he posts all of his articles and interviews Alexander Jeffrey Professor Sachs let's let's get started before we get started just a quick hello to everyone that's watching us on Rockfin Rumble Odyssey YouTube and our community on locals the Duran that locals.com and a big shout out to take you to our moderators thank you very much for all that you do gentlemen let's let's start off with Germany and then we've got a lot of other things that we can discuss obviously so Alexander Professor Sachs let's get started yes let's indeed talk about Germany because there's a lot of news coming from there there's also a lot of economic news which is of course what provides the background to the political news and today I understand a big story in Germany is not the elections in the in Serengia and Saxony it's the problems of Volkswagen which is now talking about closing his factories and it's apparently an economic problems and there's lots of other things going on economically in Germany the German economy especially if you read the British newspapers which are never very kind about Germany it must be said but anyway I think it's probably true that the German economy is in some difficulties and if nobody talks these nobody outside Germany wants to talk I think about the proximate cause which is the Germany has been maneuvered into a conflict with Russia with which it had a good and stable economic relationship and not just Russia but it's been pressured to take steps against other countries like China which were also important trade partners for Germany and I should say I have strong connections with Germany my wife is half German I travel there regularly I was there a few weeks ago before these elections I was in Western Germany I don't know the east of Germany at all apart from Berlin but I was very very surprised about the mood that I found people would unhappy they were worried and interestingly enough they were increasingly talking about the wall and they were worried about the wall and their sentiment about the wall was becoming much more much more negative than I had expected and this was I said in Western Germany not people I talk too much about politics but what's that's what they would say so it's a bit of an introduction and we never have enough time with Professor Sachs as we would want it so I get it open up Jeffrey if you're Professor Sachs tell us what you think about the situation in Germany and maybe perhaps also discuss the politics and this new movement the BSW which is now making waves more important a more interesting party perhaps because it's the one that people talk about less they all just talk about the if well what's happening in Germany is happening all over Europe first of all so the fact that incumbent governments are losing is is is a long streak right now incumbent governments do not win re-elections in Europe because the mood is is sour the mood is sour because the uncertainties and anxieties are very high economic growth is nearly as a standstill close to zero there are lots of refugees lots of migrants that concern a lot of people but concerned people basically because the situation is stagnant and frankly nobody likes to hear about war and war talk and will there be nuclear war and we need a war mobilization day after day after day when it doesn't make sense to people so what's happening in Germany well it's the same thing that happened in in France in the elections this summer both for the European Parliament and then for the surprise election that Macron called France is completely paralyzed politically right now it's the same thing that happened in the Netherlands and when you look at the approval ratings of leaders across Europe basically they're all unpopular except when they come in there's a little bit of a boost and then that goes away over time so Schultz is deeply unpopular at around 20% approval rating maybe 60% disapproval rating and the rest not knowing what to think Macron almost exactly in the same situation now specifically in Germany but again I would say it's a European wide situation we have to start from the notion that there's a pretty deep and disruptive change in the world economy taking place right now we are moving from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles well the internal combustion engine has been the heart and soul of the German economy for a century and Germany is the second largest EV producer but way behind China and not competitive with China right now and so there's an underlying challenge a second fundamental change underway of courses everybody knows in this world is the move to artificial intelligence and digital and where is Europe in this in general the big players are all American or Chinese and Europe regulates but it doesn't produce and it arrests a digital platform owners like Durham but it doesn't have its own base which is extraordinary so Europe is really in a in a bind in the sense that the world economy technology fundamentally is transforming extraordinarily rapidly and one can also add that electric vehicles are basically not automobile producers they're basically sophisticated software producers and Europe depends on its auto industry and Germany utterly depends on its auto industry and Volkswagen is in trouble and can't compete right now so the last thing in the world Europe needs right now is a prolonged war that has no purpose that has a boomerang effect directly on the European economy by the cutoff of low cost energy which at least was a competitive advantage and a very significant one for German industry so it's not only the automobile out of in automotive excuse me industry that is that is in trouble but of course the entire chemical sector is closing down right and left and the deeper transformations that are needed in the chemical sector are also paralyzed right now we need deeper change we're moving to green and digital economies the one place in the world that is just doing its job getting its act together building capacity phenomenally is China China's not doing anything wrong not cheap not anybody on its economics what it's doing is building capacity so suddenly the United States Treasury Secretary opens her eyes it says so that way she's a good friend but so not right on this issue opens her eyes and says China's over capacity no sorry we're in the middle of stupid endless perpetual wars that are only threatening only destructive only boomeranging and China's building its economy and then we have the stories so absurd by the way in your absurd press in Britain and my absurd press in the United States which gets everything wrong about the war but then gets everything wrong about China also because it says oh China's in the great deep crisis China is building the industrial capacity for the future Germany is closing down shop Europe is in disarray everybody talks about a war economy that the public doesn't every leader that absolutely doesn't want is absurd is tragic is completely in the wrong direction so that's the story of the day and are we surprised that the voters continue to vote against the incumbent parties of course we shouldn't be they have no approval they have no strategy they're following some CIA plan from the 1990s that we're gonna run the world and we is not Europe by the way it's the United States and Europe has fallen into line and the voters who are not exactly part of this agreement are saying what the heck is going on so in all of this the anti incumbent vote is completely understandable you have that vote in many dimensions but from my point of view the most important point about these elections in the euroian Saxony is that the anti incumbent parties won and the anti incumbent parties agree on the most basic point stop the war thank you because we don't want it it's not helping us least of all is it helping Ukraine it just kills 1 to 2,000 Ukrainians every day so that's what the public voted for overwhelmingly and the current coalition could barely muster a vote and the Greens who I find the most absurd of all of this because they're the least green and they're the most militaristic could not even enter the Parliament of the ring if I know the updated the counter correctly so this current coalition is is is completely losing the support of the public but that's the same has happened in France that's the same has happened in the Netherlands that's the same as is happening election by election in Europe indeed and in Britain by the way we've had the fastest decline in popularity of an incoming government that I can ever remember the prime ministers on you prime ministers ratings have completely collapsed and have fallen into negative territory what's amazing to me Alexander is that they come in and they read the script of the party day of the of the government that they just defeated because it's the US script and they pledge that they're going to do exactly the same as the party that that they just defeated but they're doing that everywhere yeah well this is this is the this is my next point because there is no you know we have an expression I don't know whether you have it in American English which is when you're in a hole stop digging we're not doing that we're digging deeper now Michael Schildenberg who I think you know very well and admire very much and he's just written a wonderful piece which is in various places about the fact that the European Parliament has just passed another incredible resolution demanding more more support for Ukraine saying that the only acceptable outcome in Ukraine is victory and defeat Russia calling for more support for Ukraine in terms of weapons militarization in other words and this is what all the leaders are saying in Britain in France in Germany still because maths who is the new Christian you know the leader of the Christian Democrats and likely the next chance of Germany he is not saying anything different it is such a complete misjudgment of the mood of people in Europe now and it is so completely self-destructive of the state of Europe's economy I think the fundamental problem for Europe in this regard is that Brussels is the capital not only of the EU but also of NATO and the two became exactly the same thing they weren't exactly the same thing 10 or 20 or 30 years ago but now the EU the European Union which is basically a monetary and economic construction I meant to say market the construction has become part of the US military arm and so all we hear is the military from the European Union that was not the mission of the European Union in fact it was exactly the opposite originally was to make the interconnected economy so that militarization would not be the main subject but with the NATO and European capitals being co-located and of course with this push by the United States since 1991 active design delusional destructive push for global dominance and hegemonic status and full-spectrum dominance whatever you want to call it Europe has really been pulled out of the all that it knows how to do and should do which is to build a 21st century infrastructure to support at the scale that is needed of the 450 million people in Europe the digital sector that can compete with the US and can compete with China but it's not happening now at all it's war all the time and the fact that Van der Leyen is just reelected in the context of one of the terrible moments of Europe shows that this script is still unchanging it's still coming from Washington and it's still read by these hapless unpopular unsupported European politicians it's it's very sad I love Europe I just and I love the the quality of life in Europe and I love the idea of Europe by getting its act together to be at a scale which can be a counterweight to the United States which can deal as Europe with China which is fine to the two ends of the Eurasian continent should be dealing directly with each other not through Washington not through Washington's dictates but this is exactly not happening anymore which is of course I mean the connections between the two parts of Eurasia used to happen I mean there was there were Roman emphasis to the quarter to the court in China we have records on I mean it's it's not we have the Silk Road we had all of those things if you if you want if you want to if you want to growth and well-being agenda it's Europe and China working together for a 21st century peaceful Eurasia Russia has an important role in that Central Asia has an important role in that Western Asia has an important role in that South Asia in other words this could be a wonderful time actually we need and have the chance to upgrade quality of life technology digital services interconnectivity fast rail so many fantastic things and we're doing the opposite right now Russia's the enemy we can never even talk to them we can't even be in the room anymore this is absurd and self-destructive China we can't deal with China Washington says we can't deal with China well this is utterly self-destructive again so what we should be doing right now and by the way Eurasia is a good concept and it's been there since the Roman and Han empires dealt with each other constructively this is what what the future really should be about and we're just doing the opposite right now and and it's I have to tell you I mean you know very well and you clarify this every day both of you that Washington metals a lot Europe's main mission in life should not be promoting American hegemony Europe's main mission in life was not to make sure that America could have its military surrounding Russia for God's sake was this really the most vital thing in the world to provoke open war and the destruction of relations between Europe and Russia no but the US walked Europe into this and interestingly you know if you go back to even the start of the Ukraine war which please everybody remember is February 2014 not February 2022 as the mainstream media would tell it this war started when the US brought down a government in Ukraine the Europeans were there I don't think the European role was very sophisticated at all in that moment and the European role was a whip sod by the United States who our point person was caught on tape saying not a very nice expletive about Europe at the time which people may recall but the point is even on the eve of the coup the European foreign ministers were there making a deal with the incumbent government for early elections later in 2014 but for an end to this violent overthrow and so the Europeans made a deal the United States basically put its foot down said we're getting rid of Yanukovych right now together with the right-wing extremists in in the uprising and what did Europe say it didn't say well wait a minute we have we have a deal already we need to enforce that the Europeans from that moment would not raise their voice to the United States and that's when all of this started spiraling down so even at the last moment when Europe could have salvaged something and said we can deal straightforwardly we've reached an agreement we have a diplomatic approach we have a way forward politically that we have agreed with the government of Ukraine the Europeans couldn't hold it one day and then can't even open their mouths about the circumstances that's sad it's those it's those astonishing to some particular remembers recent European history I mean I remember Vili Brandt I remember Helmut Schmidt I remember the various French leaders De Gaulle, Pompadou, Jiska, Mitterrand they could all they were Shirak they were all able to speak with restraint and by the way the Americans say no to the Americans well look Germany France and Russia in 2003 said no to the Americans about the Iraq war and then they were proved right and the US prevailed over the politics of Europe it's crazy so it's exactly true this is not so deep that it that European leaders if they had some gumption actually could not say to the United States you know your ideas don't make so much sense and we have our own issues and our own interests they could do that and you point that out and it was really there and was there as late as 2003 but the turning point we already saw it in 2008 when Bush Jr. pushed NATO enlargement I spoke to some of the European leaders one there there are some that are still there and they said to me what's going on with your government they promised they wouldn't do this that this is too provocative why is why is he pushing for NATO enlargement to Ukraine for God's sake and we know at the Bucharest Summit that Merkel the French and others were trying to stop George don't do it you don't have to do it and George put his foot down in Victoria Newland my my colleague at Columbia University now NATO Ambassador put her foot down and you have to agree that NATO is going to enlarge Ukraine and it was after that essentially it seems that Europe completely lost its voice as Europe when Minsk was a way out for Ukraine not to lose the don't boss and not to be engaged in terrible war and the Russian said diplomacy and yeah some autonomy so that Russians can speak Russian ethnic Russians can speak Russian in Ukraine perfectly sensible normal the United States said no not interested Ukrainian regime said no not interested and what did Merkel and and it's Sarkozy and Olan do afterwards Olan nothing they were supposed to be the guarantors of this complete quiet so Europe basically left the geopolitical stage gave it over to Washington I've had European leaders say very weird things to me when I've asked them why don't you stand up for your European interests they say oh they they treat us like children in Washington come on you don't let yourself get treated like a child as a leader of a European country that that is you did the next thing I wanted to ask which is that this this mood of fatalism that is now taking hold in Europe which is very corrosive people are very very gloomy all of the things that you said could happen the digitalization the development of the infrastructure all of this it is doable it can be done we have the resources in Europe we have them we have the financial reserves we have the technology technological skills we are the industrial skills and if we start to do them I think people would find them exciting and enjoyable and energizing and it would create optimism and buoyancy and a lot of these problems that seem so intractable about migration for example I think they could be handled much more effectively and successfully in the context of an optimistic buoyant Europe but do you agree with me I mean it's we could do it and it would it would be fun I mean if I could say if I could really like that yeah you know I want to I make lists for a living on economic competitiveness and sustainable development and many other things and first of all Europe's quality of life is the highest in the world I give a lot of credit for that there's a there is and I I appreciate it a proof it a proof of it a very good work life balance you can make fun of it lots of vacation time shorter work hours but yeah come on that's what life that's a good life because Europe is highly productive highly sophisticated you look at top ranked universities in the world Europe of course invented the university network a thousand years ago and it's got the greatest university network still in the world life expectancy highest in the world that Japan is is actually at the top but for a region Europe is extraordinary scientific capacity extremely strong all the makings are there so what is this disarray we don't trade we're protectionist we are we don't deal with Russia we need a war economy everything wrong and of course one of the reasons is the United States has its agenda I mean it's crazy it's delusional in my view it is this hegemonic agenda to this moment although it's absurd and completely out of reach Europe was yanked into it but the US agenda is not even that Europe is a part of that necessarily the US likes its giants the Europe doesn't have its successful global competitors now in the artificial intelligence space at all there is no where to be seen and that's true across a lot of the new technologies right now Europe needs its focus on that future which is a very interesting and very positive future potentially and Europe is not building that out at all and where is the strategy you think Vander Lane is going to come up with that strategy that Kayakalas is going to come up with that strategy I thought back in 2019 when I was speaking with the then-early commission when Europe made its screen deal I said okay this is kind of an industrial strategy for how to make a modern transformation and to lead and it could be China had its industrial strategy they called it made in China 2025 and by the time we're reaching 2025 they achieved all their objectives actually it was a very impressive document that freaked out the United States and actually China succeeded in it it became at the cutting edge of essentially every major green and digital technology looking forward Europe has abandoned that now one clue to that also is not only the craziness of the Neopan agenda which remains in trained as it fails and digs us deeper into the hole but when I spoke recently with a big authority in Europe on the digital economy she told me that she had gotten involved in some industrial issues with Brussels and that the thing that overwhelmed her about Brussels was the American lobbying in Brussels the dominance of the American narrow interests swaying all of the decision making the regulatory apparatus and and the rest because there's a lot of US lobbying money in Brussels they know what they're doing that's how America you know it still has some technological edge but basically our government has been handed over to plutocratic lobbying groups sector by sector and the US has done that to Brussels as well Europe has its own semi-tradition of that but the United States really accelerated it so it's not only the geopolitical side it's purely the commercial side and Europe let itself be exposed to that as well it's very sad and you know the anti incumbent mood is typically an anti Brussels mood perfectly understandable because that's anti incumbency and it's also understandable because what Brussels has on offer is just not very exciting but I'll tell you for Europe or any other region in the world in my view you better have scale right now China's big India's big the US is big to say we don't like Brussels and so we just want to do it in Saxony or Thuringia well you're not going to have much of an auto industry that way you're not going to have a digital industry that way you're not going to be able to make it so we need a Europe of scale but not doing this ridiculous bidding of the United States and digging the whole deeper every single day and they just don't get it by the way I was on an Irish television show yesterday apparently with I didn't know the other people but a couple one of them was a minister in the government taking me on I just found they didn't know even the basic facts the chronology how Europe has gotten into this and I discover of course I listen to you guys every day to keep me informed but people don't know even the most basic step-by-step tick-tock of how or not tick-tock we can't say that anymore of how we got into this but if you know year by year what happened it's a completely different story from the unprovoked attack of 2022 this absurd narrative and that's another part of why Europe is just so much on the the back foot on this because people are not even aware of this how this mess has evolved this is completely true by the way I have a friend of mine who worked out who worked until very recently the British government and he's been telling me all kinds of things about how ministers have briefed and how profoundly ignorant they are they they are very very poorly informed not just about foreign policy but about most things as he turns out and they are never there long enough to learn that's the other problem yes this this is actually endless you know the the mainstream media collapsed on us you can't get a sensible word in in in the FT which I used to read not only for facts but for pleasure actually because I thought the right it was was good and everything has deteriorated with that our government the politicians don't know apparently because their their fact universes are pretty limited and and maybe from reading the mainstream media and I thought what what Putin said in an interview in in Figaro in 2017 that is reproduced in a wonderful forthcoming book of a historian Jonathan Haslam about all of this Putin said you know the politicians he said I dealt with three presidents you talk to them it's interesting they have some ideas but by the afternoon the men in the dark suits with the blue ties have visited them and have straightened them out about things and so that's the US presidents of course you know they're kept in line there is a an agenda a direction I think it's been going on for 30 years in the United States Europe was yanked into it by the United States that's what they're told okay you do this you do that everybody reads from the script nobody knows even the basics right now everyone sees things in this incredibly weird way incidentally to digress so the minister said to me or one of the participants on this Irish show you know the Russians would never negotiate of course you you take on that that trope all the time but I said excuse me it was Russian diplomacy that made Minsk it was a Putin that put forward a draft security arrangement it was Russia that negotiated with with Ukraine in Ankara in March and April 2022 and it was Boris Johnson that March did to stop that you say the Russians don't negotiate and he's sitting there I don't think he knew frankly it wasn't just that there was debating points on his side I don't think he has any idea at all of the actual basic situation that has brought his country into a war zone and which is affecting the morale and the material conditions of his people which is what a government should be focused on more than anything else peace of course been the precondition of achieving those two things Professor Saks again thank you very much for joining us I'm gonna hand over to Alex I'm sure he's got a few questions if you could stay with us just for a very short time sure yeah you have time for I do of course of course great Ralph Steiner says the USA and especially Britain seem totally bent on defeating Russia is this because the Anglo-American Empire needs the resources of Russia to keep going that's a great question first of all this is the Anglo-American Empire so albeit in decline this story goes back to I would say to the 1830s and 1840s if you say if I say Europe is fulfilling the American delusion I would say America is fulfilling the British delusion the great story of Britain and Russia is with the short exception Britain has been consumed with rusaphobia from the 1830s onward for no reason by the way except somebody got it in their heads around 1830 that Russia was going to invade India through the Kiber Pass and that this was going to be the great game of Asia and the crown jewel of the British Empire was going to be threatened by Russia the point is this kind of great power game goes back almost two full centuries now Britain has been in the lead there's a wonderful study by a historian named Gleason Britain in 1970 the origins of British rusaphobia why did Britain come to hate Russia and he goes through basically every speech every news story from the end of the Napoleonic Wars when Britain and Russia were on the same side to the emergence of this great rusaphobia in the 1840s to the Crimean War which is almost identical to what we're playing out right now because the Crimean War was a contrived war by Britain and France to get Russia out of the Black Sea we're in the second Crimean War the continuation of the first Crimean War with a bit of a gap right now anyway Gleason looks he spends a whole learned book and he can't find anything that Russia did that created the rusaphobia it arose because Britain which at that time was the world hegemon didn't like the fact that there was a big Russia that's all so Russia was a threat because it was big by the way that's the reason the United States hates Russia and China because they are an affront to American hegemony that's all why does America hate China not because of what China has done China's pulled itself from poverty it's pulled itself to the front lines of world technology it's extraordinarily impressive and good for the world the U.S. hates it because now there's a fear that they don't want so yes this is about the Anglo-American Empire Boris Johnson said so by the way we have to defeat Russia otherwise Western hegemony will be over well anything Boris Johnson says is idiocy so there you have it but he explained it quite quite well gift of the gap asks what's Jeffrey's opinion on one world government you know it's complicated in that I am a big believer that we need global agreements on certain things like getting rid of nuclear weapons we need global agreements on protecting the oceans we need global agreements on protecting the air from poisons I want global agreements on keeping space demilitarized and so forth so my view of government in general is an idea that is actually comes from the Catholic Church originally it's the idea of subsidiarity which is you do things at the level that you need to do them so if you can run your schools and your clinics at the village level do it there you don't do it at a global government level that's crazy you don't even have to do it at a national level if you need an intercity rail you don't do that at the city level you do that at the national level if you need to transport power across nations you do that at a regional level like the European Union if you need to do things at the global level like protecting the oceans or space or something extremely important for me nuclear in my view I should say nuclear disarmament rather than nuclear Armageddon you have to do that at the global level so it's not one or the other it's you we do things when we need to do things together as opposed to individually or in our families or so forth when we need to do things together to build infrastructure or to take some protections for our safety do it at the most local level you can do it but not at a level so low that you can't solve the problem I don't want Europe to solve the problem of its competitiveness at a country by country level alone because I want Europe to have some champions that can compete with China with India with the United States and so forth and that is why I like the European Union for that purpose so the question is what are we trying to get out of government and where can we best get it and that idea of subsidiarity is go to the lowest most local level you can because that gives the most diversity the most freedom the most ability to meet the local tastes and local needs but don't pretend that there aren't issues that are not national or regional or global from Sanjeva to two-part question actually Sanjeva me and Alexander will answer the question in detail but from Sanjeva what are your thoughts Professor Sax on Modi's visit to Kiev very quick visit a seven hour visit from what San Jevis is yeah look India is one of the world's four superpowers in in my view that's the United States China Russia and India India should be engaged in global problem solving to the extent that it can I think the the meeting was just normal Modi has close relations with Putin which is excellent I like the bricks also I think that it's a constructive force for the world and so I'm I'm happy that they take this step I don't think he heard anything at all constructive everything that comes out of Zelensky is is delusional right now and destroying Ukraine it's not solving anything but I'm I'm glad that they went and I like Indian diplomacy and I want to see more of it and I want Indian in the UN Security Council as a permanent member because it's one of the world's major powers from Ralph Steiner do the people instigating these wars care about the human cost incurred now or is it the almighty dollar the primary factor or is it something more insidious you know I can tell you for sure no one counts the dead in these positions of power you don't even hear the words you don't even hear the hand-wringing it's not even faked they don't even think that they need to fake it to show a human side I haven't heard anyone in US Authority bemoan the 500 or 600 or 700,000 Ukrainians dead you don't even hear it but by the way this has been American war making from the start and it was war making of America's been bombing civilian populations mass bombings from Korea Vietnam Laos Cambodia America's instigated wars all over the place causing hundreds of thousands or millions of deaths that we never even hear about no nobody counts the dead in this and it's a one of the most shocking things for me I mean as a human being also I take it I'm an economist I don't like waste you know I try I like things being done efficiently I don't like wasting human lives I don't like the suffering the mass suffering it should be our goal every day how do we stop the killing it's not even the goal the goal is how do we win not how do we stop the killing the mindset is nothing about how to stop the killing that's weakness you have to win that's the thing that counts and so it's a very good question and the answer is absolutely straightforward and I can say I've been through so many American wars I'm giving you a comprehensive answer they don't care Professor Sacks from Shalandra I read your article I'm at how you be sub stack it was very informative although you did cover it on the draft yes thank you for that and the final question for Professor Sacks coming from Zariel Professor Sacks where did the Munro doctrine go that's interesting you know the Munro doctrine 1823 said to the European powers two very interesting things we only remember one of them but the Munro doctrine actually says two things one it says don't meddle in our neighborhood okay to the European powers the second thing it says actually is we won't meddle in your neighborhood that is not so often mentioned but it's very clearly stated because they stated something for world opinion and it was reciprocity it was the Kantian imperative don't do it to us what we wouldn't want you to do don't do it us and we won't do the same to you because neither of us should meddle in each other's affairs well of course the US position especially since 1898 since the US finished its continental genocide and its continental conquest and said okay now we got to get a world empire because we're a little bit behind the Europeans and launched a war on false premises kind of a weapons of mass destruction war against Spain in 1898 to claim Puerto Rico and the Philippines and Cuba briefly and so forth now the US position is don't don't expect any reciprocity from us we can go wherever we want but don't you dare come close to our neighborhood so the literal thing that is getting is killing Ukraine the literal thing every day is the US claim that NATO can go where it wants when it wants with any partner and in particular up to Russia's 2,100 kilometer border with Ukraine and it's none of Russia's business at all this is the central claim I had a long talk with Jake Sullivan about this in 2021 he said that's our principle that's a principle Jake are you kidding that's an absurdity guaranteed to get us into endless war and we don't like it do we so if Russia said we're gonna have a military base on the Rio Grande on the Mexican side the Washington would say oh that's just fine Mexico and Russia you can do whatever you want no we'd be at war in 10 minutes and we basically nearly ended the world in October 1962 when the Soviet Union tried to install a base and offensive nuclear weapons in Cuba no you have no right to do that even though the US had offensive nuclear weapons pointed at Soviet Union in Turkey everything's asymmetry when you are the hegemon we do what we want you do what we say this is the whole point of all of this and if the United States even reread its own Monroe Doctrine it would learn two critical things you know what I am a believer in this I'm not a believer in the US meddling in internal affairs of Latin American countries but I'm happy to say to the rest of the world you keep your militaries out of our neighborhood in the United States but we should do the same I want our military bases all over the world closed down for God's sake we don't need them the United States is not threatened the only threat the United States faces the only military threat the United States faces period is a nuclear war that's it so if we don't provoke other nuclear superpowers if when Russia says no please don't move NATO to our border we say aha we understand we have kind of the same idea we wouldn't be at war if we would listen to China said don't arm Taiwan right now we don't want a war across the Taiwan Straits if we just listened for one moment and did what we would do we'd actually be perfectly safe in the United States we have no security crisis we are safe except for nuclear war don't provoke one that's the bottom line but we are provoking everywhere because they're not after our safety they're after hegemony which is a crazy idea and the idea that the US could be a global hegemon in a world of India Russia China it's completely delusional and extremely dangerous and that's why we're in in the mess that we're in professor Saks thank you so much for another amazing show I will have your information in the description box down below I have your information description box down below I will also have it as a pinned comment as well when the live stream ends hey great to be with you guys and thank you for everything you're doing every day which is amazing thank you thank you for everything thank you thank you professor Saks thank you very much again see you soon all right fantastic show Alexander let's uh let's get to the remaining questions absolutely are you ready absolutely from Peter welcome to the Durant community great to have you with us Sanjava says greetings from Australia hello Durant Sanjava Ojiwal says good day Linda Mark welcome to the drag community here's the two part questions from San part one of two Alexander by the way my take on Modi visit to Ukraine was confirmed by Swati Chaturvedi writing for RT Modi only spent seven hours in Ukraine also Indian pundits are aghast at this visit here is part two let me pull it up Modi foreign policy pulled on opposing directions by BJP India Diaspora wing especially in the USA and the civil services institutional memory example the USSR Russia being all weather friends to India example 1973 Alexander oh that's exactly right I think it was a mistake by the way I mean I've come around to the view that I think it was a mistake and I think that Modi himself has gradually come to see that it was a mistake but you're absolutely right there is this push and pull there's the diaspora the pressure from the diaspora I believe and I'm you know an awful lot more about this than I do that there is a strong Atlanticist faction in India as well particularly amongst the business community Mumbai so I have heard and they're very influential within the BJP and I think Modi has to be careful to balance with it internally in India with those with those people as well but I think what he did he went to Kiev I think he thought that by doing that he would get the Americans and all these people on his back to a certain extent I think what he found and what many people have found is that when they go to Kiev and they speak to Zelensky and they speak to people I could labor who of course has now gone they are completely unreasonable they are not people you can reason with or discuss things with or try and find ways forward with and if you actually look at the joint statement that Modi and Zelensky signed off after the visit it's a fascinating document because there's an awful lot about you know the kind of cooperation India and Ukraine is going to do but it's all very general there's no real specificity about it but when they actually talk about the conflict there's something which I've hardly ever seen it's scarcely ever seen in a statement before which is you have a sent one sentence one numbered article which says this is the Ukrainian view on this and then there's another one which is the this is the Indian view on that the statement actually if anything highlights the difference between India and Ukraine rather than showing that there is real commonality between them and I think a statesman who goes to the capital of another country and finds himself having to sign a document like that has made a mistake and has wasted his time and has had prob as gonna have problems when he gets back home especially with his officials and probably will also find that his friends in Moscow in this particular case well they're going to be rather less than pleased by what he has done and if you look at the Russian readout of the conversation between Putin and Modi it was a little stiff as compared with some of the more effusive readouts that I've seen on others at other times so I think your and I think your take is absolutely correct Sanjiva and by the way just to also say I'm modified my own comments about Modi's visit to Kiev on the strength of information that you provided the fact that the visit was very short the fact that it had come in for some criticism in India itself all of these things I've taken on board and I've taken them from you from Alan Shepherd would history repeat itself in Germany but this time will be uprising against Muslim immigrants as things will get tough and the population will be looking at someone to blame my overwhelming sense when I was in Germany is it yes people are very upset and worried about immigration they think it's getting out of control but their primary anger is with their political establishment and with their own government that was that was the experience I saw when I was in West Germany in the Rhineland I didn't ask people because I never do that I didn't ask them which party are you going to vote for the area of the Rhineland I know is a social democratic heartland but people were to say that they were uncomplimentary about all our shoals would be an understatement and some of the young people I met many of whom had been very you know supportive of the Greens at one time have completely turned against them I don't know who they're going to vote for but it was against the German government against all our shoals against these policies the policies on immigration all of those things that they were angry with and the other thing that struck me is that none of them seem to think very much of the CDU alternative either. Fractured thank you for that super sticker Ralph says if Germany and Turkey were to try and break free of the Anglo-American Empire control in place since 1945 with this spark a violent reaction from the USA. I don't know how I think there would be a reaction I don't know how violent it would be I mean what exactly would they do I mean some tanks into Berlin people would be a rather reckless thing to try but there would be the would be a reaction I suspect what you would see is enormous economic pressure exerted on Germany and if you're talking about Turkey well they've been trying to the med goos there John Bolton is quite open about it by the way yeah lover of the Russia team says Russia looks more appealing by the day I'll just pass and act it's a change to the law to make it easier for people who feel that they've been persecuted in their own countries to migrate then just say OMG puppy says Democrats summer nuclear winter Ralph Steiner says do the Anglo Saxons USA and the British Empire have the military power to inflict a definitive and lasting defeat on Russia China Iran and North Korea no they don't some people understand that unfortunately an awful lot of people still live in delusions about this especially I'd say would add in Britain I get article as you read article after article which continue to harp on the fact that you know we could ultimately prevail over the Russians we can prevail over the Chinese we have overwhelming superiority in military terms no we don't I mean anyone would have thought that by now two and a half years into the war in Ukraine people would understand that but probably it's one of these things which those who understand it are too frightened to explain to their leaders so I think an awful lot of people in London in Washington still believe that we have a military advantage over all of these countries the reality we is we don't we don't have the advantage over any one of them and certainly not against them taken together is there here thank you for that super chat Ralph says Napoleon called Britain it could be this Albion has Britain long played at these games of inciting conflict between other powers in hopes of benefiting yes it has I mean that was very much the classic nature of British foreign policy about which by the way the British at one time were completely unembarrassed oh you're in Churchill for example you know he was amongst many things that he was he was also somebody who wrote extensively about international relations and about British history he wrote and remember he was also a major practitioner of this he was quite straightforward about him this is what the British do that they try to keep you apart divided that they play off great powers against each other that they have a divide and rule concept absolutely the point is that Britain is not a great power anymore and that kind of foreign policy today is obsolete and dangerous all it is doing is it is making Britain enemies amongst countries that might otherwise be its friends Stefan Christian Gavrilla thank you for that super sticker from from Ralph Steiner do the people instigating these wars care no we answered that care about the human cost so if you get a sex answer that's another one from Ralph historians reflect that World War 1 and World War 2 sucked the capital out of Europe to the USA as the USA remained mostly ineffective is this wealth effect reversing no I don't think so I mean I think we're still sitting at the particular moment that we're in we're still seeing a transfer of wealth from Europe to the United States in fact it's the events of the last two and a half years have intensified that trend the was a period of time about the 50s 60s when you did see something like that reversed in the other direction the United States is investing heavily in Europe at that time because in those days it had a profoundly different philosophy about what to do with its allies than it does now in those days it wanted its allies to be rich and prosperous today it wants them to be poor and emiserated but you know there was a transfer of funds and the European economy is recovered and in the 1960s they started to obtain competitive advantages over the United States and those who have long memories remember that in the late 60s early 70s there was a big American deficit with the Europeans and the Europeans were demanding payments in gold and the Americans couldn't satisfy that and that was one of the proximate factors that led to Richard Nixon's decision in 1971 to break the link between the dollar and gold but I don't think that's the case anymore I think if you're talking about the situation today the transfer of funds is from Europe to America and for the moment it's accelerating Salvador says what is the faith of Georgia Maloney and her relation with bricks members I think she is on a major point of discovery I think she came in saying to herself remember she's you know not very experienced in the very highest level of politics I think she's taught to herself look if I go along with what the EU is doing on Ukraine and if I swear fealty to the US particularly over China that will buy me political space to make changes in Italy and to a certain extent it did but then she very quickly discovered that that kind of game doesn't really work with Brussels and Washington because they never give you that much political space in the end if they don't own you they don't want you and I think she's gradually coming to realize that the policy towards Russia is wrong and is leading Italy and the rest of Europe into a corner and then it's also very unpopular by the way with the Italian public which tends to be as it is in most southern European states relatively roosephon wasn't overstate this so I think she's understanding that the Russian side of things really isn't working and I think she's also understanding that the move away from the B.R.I. and all that really isn't working economically for Italy either which is why she went to China so I think that's she's trying to reposition herself for the moment her political position in Italy is strong she remains popular her government looks strong also it remains united the stresses are going to start coming fairly soon and as she shifts her policies she's going to find that all the you know all the political favors that she thinks she bought with the EU Center are not going to help her at all and that before long we're being all kinds of things appearing single kinds of things appearing in the European media about how Italy is regressing how you know the F word is gonna be gunged up again the far right and all of that pro-Russian parties all of that and we're going to start seeing Italy again experienced squeeze Ibrahim tall says they have aligned interests but China and Russia be doing a shrewd calculus open to the idea of the USA exhausting itself against Iran well I think that's probably true but I mean I think also one shouldn't underestimate now the fact that the Russians and the Chinese have got to know each other pretty well and have come to decisions which are long-term and are independent of each of their relations with the US to say now ten years ago it would have been different if and if the United States had conducted a different policy towards each of these countries it would still have been different but we are where we are the Americans pull them together and when they came together they found that it was in their interests to make long-term deals and those long-term deals are going to be there in the long term and they will be built on I mean it's inevitably so Ralph Snyder says have the 1884 creation of the British Fabian society and planning for World War I that began in 1891 in London had the desired outcomes so far in your opinion now I think that if you're talking about the British role in the World Wars they were in a profound sense a disaster for Britain they led to massive loss of life by British standards they led to the weakening Britain's position in the world economy from which Britain has never recovered and they did something else because as a result of the fact that Britain came out one of the victors in the two World Wars it resulted in an atrophy in the political and economic system it meant that the imperial structures that had existed in the 19th century were perpetuated and are still there today in the way that Britain is governed and they're completely not fit to purpose they are obsolete and they're holding the country back we see that in the way in which you've just had an election in which a party with which has the support of the fifth of the electorate control something of the 60 percent of the seats in the House of Commons and has come to power without any ideas at all so it's been the World Wars have done great damage to Britain they've done damage to Europe as well by the way but to Britain specifically I don't see that they've been any kind of plaster tool Pope Racket says NATO is a scam EU EU death equals healthcare USA military industrial complex the world at war yeah if you're completely right no comment to make about any of that thank you for that Matthew says the EU is a total parasite do you think that Russia is now so far ahead that it will absorb further provocations such as long-range missiles right and it did two very interesting points firstly on the on the first I agree and it's a parasite that's killing the host I mean what what Professor Sachs was talking about was the EU which was not the EU it was the European economic community the key word there the key words there were economic community it was a grouping of European states that emerged in the 1960s which realized that in some important fields economies of scale were needed and that Europe should work European states in their own interests should collaborate with each other on those projects it's evolved into something completely different basically a geopolitical and political complex fundamentally contrary to European traditions and political culture and which has become frankly not just a parasite but the parasite is killing the host it's centralizing power within Europe it is leading Europe in completely the wrong directions and of course by centralizing power it is draining political and social and economic energy out of the European states where historically it has always belonged so that's that's about the about the EU now about Russia I think you might be on to something in the sense that the military balance if we're talking about the Ukraine war which is I think what you are talking about has now shifted so decisively to the Russian side I think that whereas even a few months ago they were saying look if you do this we're gonna have to react because it's a danger to us they're now starting to say to themselves but you can do what you like because quite frankly we don't care because it's not really a problem anymore at all we can handle it so I think there is that shift I don't think we should take it too far if the United States starts authorizing the Ukrainians which isn't really authorizing working with the Ukrainians to launch missile strikes on Moscow or St Petersburg or attack nuclear power stations or do that sort of thing then the Russians will respond and they have said so John Scott says slava Ukraine thank you John for that Tim Gibson thank you for that super sticker Abraham tall says in the wake of a schistic attacks in the West against ritter methurst and others have you been advising friends to leave the five eyes no but I should tell you I have been contact with one of those people and on Monday we had a very long conversation and I don't want to say more and I don't want to say which one of them it was Ralph says it may be dangerous to be America's enemy but to be America's friend is Vadol H Kissinger is everyone except for Britain and Israel covered by this I think it is dangerous for everybody if we talk about Israel for example Israel is now in an existential crisis even Israelis if you go to the Israeli media you'll find people talking about this why is Israel in an existential crisis because of the way it has because this relationship with the United States has encouraged the Israelis to do things which left of themselves they would probably not have done they might even have made peace with their neighbors which would have been better for them and peace with the Palestinians as well which would also have been better for them so the risk they now run is they've got themselves into an unending confrontation with everybody around them they've seen their own society divide and radicalize and of course they do run the risk that one day the United States will no longer be there the same by the way for the Baltic states the Baltic states should have worked especially hard to make to keep and develop good relations with Russia Russia is the only country that can provide cast iron permanent guarantees of their prosperity and independence instead because of this connection with the US the Baltic states have run a mock they've been as outrageous and as aggressive and as hostile against Russia as it is possible to be and one day America will leave because it must and then where will the Baltic states be so it is always dangerous to be America's friend in the way that America wants you to be the black cat thank you for that super sticker angry Warhawk says how much longer can the Ukraine keep fighting I think next year will be the end that's my own view which apparently is the Russian plan I mean this is something that was leaked by the Russians about a year ago that they they they they're looking for victory to 2025 Harry C Smith says input valve for last major Russia to EU gas pipeline the Lensky wants to kill just happens to be in sudza no way that's coincidence but no one's mentioning it oh no I know absolutely of course that's I tell you wrong now I mean why they get here we go the Europeans helping the Ukrainians cut them off from even more Russian gas it's it's not you know enough that folks bargain is come out saying which apparently it is I'm going to get folks bargain you know which dominated the European car industry 10 years ago I mean it was the Colossus of the European car industry all the chemical industry as Professor Sachs was saying closing down across Germany so what do you do you go on and provide even more support to a man the man who wants to make your situation even worse there is so lack so little sanity and reason in this that it is beyond understanding and when I was in Germany the one thing I would say again is people can see it they are starting to see it for themselves they go past the hysteria and the anger and they're starting to put two or two together and make full Ibrahim says are the attacks on US personnel in Turkey a harbinger will Turkey leave NATO or will it be expelled like such an event never formally occur well you know I had a very interesting email from someone in Turkey who is very shrewd and very well informed and this person suggested that this attack on the American sailors in his mail was not quite what it seemed and there was all very carefully arranged by one particular political group and that it might actually be intended to create problems for the other one government and you know I take what those persons says quite seriously and you can know anything about Turkish politics you will know that it is very much like that there's often wheels within wheels within wheels within wheels the expression deep state by the way originates into from Turkey it was in Turkey the fact expression was first coin so you know we need to keep that in mind but having said that 20 years ago it would have been impossible that there should be attacks on American sailors in any Turkish port that would have been absolutely inconceivable no one whatever faction in Turkey they belonged to would have done something like that so the very the mere fact that it's happened regardless of exactly who did it and how it was done is indicative of a major change in Turkey and I personally think that we've still got a huge journey to travel I don't expect Turkey to leave NATO tomorrow I certainly don't expect other one ever to leave NATO just to say that I think he will always keep Turkey inside NATO so long as he's president but I think we are seeing a steady move of Turkey away from the West and towards the Eurasian states which ultimately as I've said previously in other places it's a more natural place for Turkey to be not in a Europe that doesn't want it Mattless X says Alexander a few days ago you had mentioned the phrase planting flowers and was unsure of what it meant the mayor of Pakrovsk literally had city made an inch planting flowers on the roadside instead of putting up defenses Paul Pauli says when will you invite Guido G. Preparata he wrote conjuring Hitler among other books I would be delighted thank you both we are working on it you know we are working on it bin Lin says how is Cyprus doing Alex Cyprus as a whole not doing so great some cities doing better than others some cities are in a terrible state other cities are holding up Ibrahim says do you see parallels between the English Civil War and the future of the West compare and contrast religious civil wars simultaneous with Imperial Wars the English Civil War was an event that it is impossible to reproduce in terms of in my future history I don't think it has really very much bearing to what has happened what might happen in other places the English Civil War was not a collapse of the political system exactly everybody in England in the 1630s and 1640s was was within the well within the political class and the English political class at that time by the way was enormous I mean in all the country gentlemen were in effect part of it they wanted to prolong the political system as it existed then the problem was that the King and his ministers had particular ideas of how to develop England and its constitutional system and probably more as a result of misunderstandings and failures of policy this whole thing spiraled out of control and led to a civil war the civil war was in itself a very alarming thing for the English political class it started or it opened up possibilities for more democratic forces to start to assert themselves within English society that would there was talk about Parliament's elected democratically through universal suffrage and that sort of thing so the English political class collectively took the decision we can't have this and they brought back the King and so we ended up with a system that was very like the one that existed before so this is not I think where we're heading for in the West today this is a much more chaotic dysfunctional system where the system itself is losing credibility and is completely breaking down I've said this before and I want to repeat this if you want for me the closest parallels to what we're seeing at the moment look at three countries and dynasty China just before the dynasties collapse 17th century Spain where ossification and imperial overreach results in a political crisis from which ultimately arguably Spain has never recovered to this day and late 18th century France where again the massive dysfunctions and problems led to the events that we call the French Revolution from Ibrahim Serbia just bought 12 Raphael's got to appease NATO yeah absolutely they also sent their prime minister to meet with Putin by the way just just again it's what the Serbs have to do Joe public says where did the EU butter Mount didn't go oh I no idea probably melted confidence that that's from that's a problem of of another time John ski says what role and power does the WEF have over Europe the USA Canada and the world in general they've become quieter since their insane policies were revealed last year I think they had I think they had enormous influence at one time I think the last couple of years that influences lessened to a certain extent but they did have a great deal of influence they were right there at the inception of the current iteration of the European project I mean they started to become very influential in the 60s they were instrumental in converting as I said the European economic community into the EU project that we have now and it's trying to centralize everything in the way that we've seen and they were instrumental in selling the leadership of the West the idea of globalization and Western hegemony so they played a significant role in the world that we have Ibrahim says even the elitist Nietzsche said an overpowered state left no energy for other pursuits Germany produced its greatest thinkers free unification in some respects yes it's open the way by the way Pope Racket says the eye in FBI somehow is more accurate than A in NATO said Ibrahim says thoughts on the US updated nuclear policy the US or the Russian I think the Russian is the updated but it says the US is the US because the oh I know what you this is about competing with the American the Russians the Chinese the North Koreans and the Iranians all at the same time I mean it is a good it's a case example of the utter bankruptcy of near-con foreign policy because whereas of course conventional wisdom would say that the United States deals with all of these countries separately tries to keep them separated from each other seeks at least stable relations with each one the near-cons by trying to isolate break apart regime change the governments of all of these countries have ended up bringing them together and of course Pauli upon 40 they want to run a nuclear arms race against all of them at the same time I mean it's incredibly dangerous it's incredibly reckless it shows how completely American foreign policy has failed and it also shows how impossible it is to change this failed foreign policy Dave thank you for that tip on Iraq then on Odyssey fish asks what what would the right economic path forward for Europe and specifically Germany in current geo political landscape cutting back the political and administrative waterhead of the EU back to the core idea of European economic community or founding a new economic European alliance altogether I might be in there's one thing that has to be done and it is the precondition without which nothing else can succeed and that is they have to dismantle the euro the euro is the core of the whole problem it is what binds everything together and it is what gives the European Center its power now doing away with the euro is going to be a would be a very very difficult problem now I mean it's it's it's not something that can be done easily or in a day but of course it can be done and one shouldn't say that it is impossible but if you bring back national currencies and you know within a system of trade that is maintained between countries then all sorts of possibilities begin to open up and all sorts of things can be done which up to this point in time can't be done from locals Heiner Miller says in addition to Turkey and possibly Azerbaijan which will join the bricks discussions about the geostrategic orientation have long been taking place in the Eastern EU states the Bulgarian opposition for example has just proposed leaving the EU and joining bricks instead of integrating into the Eurozone what would it mean for the EU if a member were actually were to actually succeed would it disintegrate in the medium term analogous to the divisions of the Roman Empire into East and West Brussels all they would they would be horrified about it and I think they would do everything everything that they could and they can do an awful lot to prevent it happening if there is a party were to come to power in a place like Bulgaria that was committed to taking Bulgaria around to the EU it would face a regime change attempt I mean it's as simple as that I mean it even countries that are outside the Eurozone will come under tremendous pressure look at the pressure Hungary is in already and Hungary continues to exist that even tends to remain in the EU so they will do everything they can to prevent secession in that kind of way and everybody should be under any illusions of this if it were to happen and if the country that succeeded managed to break away successfully and prosper then of course it would be an existential moment I mean at that point a lot of people in Brussels would fear that you know this would be an example that might be infectious and that's precisely why they'll do everything they can to prevent it look at Brexit well look at Brexit exactly yeah stopper is gonna move it's gonna move the UK back into the EU in one form or another so they absolutely even with the UK they haven't given up on on reversing Brexit after all this time from rumble speaking of stammer from upstream culture stammer causing snap elections within two years reform swelling to 50 seats am I full of Hopium or should I pop down the bookies for crafty one pound bet no other what you say is not an implausible scenario it's just that we're not there yet and my own view about stammer is he's gonna cling on as long as he can I don't think he's going to do what Sunak did and call an early election or anything of that kind he's got a huge majority why would he risk it by calling an early election Ibrahim says two guests requests like Maru and Max Blumenthal yeah thank you we are working on Max Blumenthal and we'll we'll take note of light Maru Fe as well thank you Ibrahim for that and from Elza I missed the live and couldn't thank Jay Sachs for his work and afford to save the world an effort to save the world from being destroyed by the Western leaders just like you do well I would endorse that as well by the way I would strongly urge people to read the articles the article that Matt Teiby has been writing has written recently and to what I haven't watched the program that they all did together but it does again go over the whole story of what happened in 1990s Russia and it is it is extremely interesting and frankly very disturbing yeah that is I think that's everything Alexander let me just do a final check any thoughts to close off the cause out the live stream as I check everything you know there just to say again there is so much we could do in Europe the means to change things to change things in Germany in Britain too are all there what is holding us back is this political system that is that we have got on top of us we have a the crisis in Europe is a political ideological one if it can be resolved in some way if the EU sent it can lose its grip then as I said things can start to happen and they could start to happen I think quite fast but until that happens these will just continue to get worse yeah upstream culture says fair point I'll hang on to this pound I have a feeling I might need it thank you for that and Darad says as for Brexit what Brexit well what Brexit yeah thanks for that and from Ibrahim the final question the US faces a looming budgetary crisis I don't see the neo cons giving up their budget taxes and civil war incoming well you may very well be right all right that is everything thank you once again to Professor Jeffrey Sachs for joining us on this live stream thank you to everyone that watched us on Rockfin rumble Odyssey YouTube and our community on locals our great community on locals the Durant that locals calm thank you for all your questions and comments thank you to our awesome moderators as well and Alex enter that's everything wonderful downstream wonderful program thank you Thank you all. Take care.