- Welcome back everyone to the frontline with Joe and Joe. Joe Basilow and Joe Recinello, you're exactly right Joe. - We work for the man upstairs as you do. - You're setting me up quite well. You just gave me an alley youth. - The greatest revolutionary act to commit right now is to open your mouth and speak the truth. - Whether you're an academic or you're a regular guy, you have to be fearless. - And once more, dear brothers and sisters, let us go into the breach. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello again everyone, and welcome back to the frontline with Joe and Joe. Joe Basilow, as always joined by Joe Recinello. And once more, dear brothers and sisters, let us go into the breach on the Veritas Catholic Radio Network. 1350 on your AM dial 103.9 on your FM dial, spreading the truth of the Catholic faith to the New York City metropolitan area. Now make sure you download the app. We are an EWTN affiliate, so you have access to all of our station's content, and our original programming, like the frontline with Joe and Joe, and Bishop Kaggiano and others. Please share that with your friends, and speaking of sharing, wherever you see Joe and I on social media, if you catch our two ugly mugs, whether it's Twitter, Rumble, Facebook, YouTube, share, like, subscribe, particularly this conversation. Joe and I say all the time on the show that we're going into the breach. That's not just a tagline, okay? Joe and I like to tackle a lot of things on this show from a Catholic perspective, yes, all right? Then a lot of people, quite frankly, either don't want to talk about, or uncomfortable talk about, talking about, or quite frankly, don't tell the complete truth when they talk about it. Well, today it's Joe and Joe, two Catholic men, joined by another strong Catholic man, Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers, and we're gonna be discussing his new book, Building a Civilization of Love, a Catholic response to racism. Now many of you out there know Deacon Harold, having said that, he is known worldwide as a dynamic. Deacon is one of the most sought after speakers in the Catholic Church today. He holds a bachelor's from the University of Notre Dame and a Masters of Theological Studies from the University of Dallas. He hosts a weekly broadcast from the rooftops on Radio Maria and is the host of several popular series on EWTN television, including Behold the Man, Spirituality for Men. He is married with four children, Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers. Welcome to the front line with Joe and Joe, brother. - Yeah, thank you for having me guys, it's great, especially being on a station back from near Jersey. - Oh, that's right, we're Jersey boys. I live in Arizona for the last two years, but I bleed the swamp, if you know what I mean. What part of Jersey are you from? - Hillside. - Oh, okay. - To Elizabeth Union. Oh yeah, yeah. - Newark and Newark. - That's right. - Yeah, no, hey, listen, we love what you have, sir, Jersey, I'm gonna be honest with you Deacon. I had just about enough. And God bless me with the option, okay? I'm saying, all right, if you wanna go to the desert for a while, I feel like John the Baptist. I'm in Arizona, I'm in the desert, okay? I'm eating locusts and wild hunting. That's a different story. But anyway, but, and I'm gonna hand it over to Joe Deacon. This is gonna be a very good conversation 'cause I think what gets caught up in a lot of things and we're gonna get into it. Number one, in the title of your book, I don't think people know exactly what love is, to be honest with you. And we're gonna get into that in the conversation. I think a lot of people are very fearful to have a frank conversation about race, okay? Because there's a lot of politics involved and quite frankly, I don't think people involve God enough in the conversation about race. And that's why this is a very exciting conversation to have and I think it's gonna be very informative, not only for our guests, but both for Joe and I also. So with that, I'm gonna hand it over to Joe and we'll get going. - Deacon, you out rank us. Could you start us with a prayer, please? - Sure, and your father and the son, the Holy Spirit, amen. Lord, we're so grateful to you for this opportunity to come together to speak about this important issue in the life of the church. We ask you to bless this conversation, that everything that we say may be for your glory and your honor and bring people to deeper intimacy with you and with your Holy church. And we ask all this in Jesus' precious Holy name, amen. - Amen. - Father, thank you, Deacon. - Thank you, Deacon. - Spirit, amen. - Before we get into terms, I just wanna set the stage. In New Jersey, three Jersey guys here talking. It's a very, very diverse population. I grew up with all types of guys, all types of guys. And frankly, where I was from, race wasn't an issue. It really wasn't. There was a Baptist church in the town I grew up with. And frankly, everyone got along. And everyone did well, by the way. Everyone had two parents, the white families, the black families, and everybody did well. And frankly, we have something in common. Three of us, one, we're from New Jersey. Two, we're Catholic men. And three, we're all involved in interracial marriages. Joe and I are married to two Haitian American women. I have five interracial children. So I have skin in the game. I have skin in the game 'cause I have children who are interracial and racism does exist in America. Let's be real, it does. And I don't want my children to face it. And as Catholics, we have to face it because we have to face God and we have to love everybody. I mention New Jersey because I think when we're familiar with people, race bleeds away 'cause people are people. And when you live next to people, they have the same concerns as you. They wanna raise their kids, they love their wives, and they just wanna get along with everybody. I think if we all fall in New Jersey's way, we'd be better deacon, but then again, it is New Jersey and everyone is crazy. That's why the two of you left. I'm still there. With that said, let's break down some terms. Racism, please define it for us. Is it the same as prejudice? Is there a difference? - Well, but before I do that, Joe, why don't I just, if I can, just explain briefly why I wrote the book. There's a couple of reasons why I wrote the book one. During the pandemic, I traveled 250,000 miles a year all around the world. I've been to 31 countries and speaking about the Catholic faith. And obviously during the pandemic, just like everybody else, I was stuck at home. And so couldn't travel. So I said, you know what? This is a perfect opportunity to write about two things that have been on my heart. One of them was the deaconate, right? 'Cause at that time, I was approaching 20 years of ordination and deaconal ministry. And so I wanted to write about the service ministry of the deacon. So I wrote a book on that, which was released by Ava Maria Press. And then the other thing I wanted to write about was race. 'Cause just like you said, Joe, growing up in Hillside, or Christ the King, Parrish and Hillside, we had all kinds of different folks. And like, I didn't even think about it. I mean, race wasn't even an issue. We all just got a lot. I grew up around Italians, you know? I grew up around Germany and Polish, you know? Perogies, everything, man. It was awesome. It was a great childhood of wonderful experience. And when I saw the race riots and the George Floyd issue and all that kind of stuff was coming to light. You know, I didn't see any solutions. I didn't see anyone really trying to get to the heart of what this issue is all about, and to really try to find ways to take the bricks out of the wall of the racial divide. So, and what I noticed in just a couple of things I noticed, one, that all the solutions were being proposed were secular-based solutions. You know, reparations in this and that. I'm like, that's a band-aid. That's not gonna get to the heart of what the issue really is. And second, you know, I was thinking, Dr. Martin Luther King, think about this. During the time when he was active and he was making a huge difference. There were Jim Crow laws. I mean, racism was woven into the fabric of American culture, into the laws of the country. And during that much polarization and division, here is a Baptist preacher who came on the scene and was able to bring people together in a way that no one else did. How did he do that? Look at what was the root and the crux of his message, the gospel of Jesus Christ. 'Cause he knew that that message transcends race, transcends political ideology, transcends divisions, and he brought people together in a powerful way. And after he was killed, no one took up that mantle. No one filled that voice. That created an acasm, an emptiness, an avoid. And what we're seeing today, we're seeing people and organizations try to fill that void with ideologies that have nothing to do with race. So basically what it is, it's a Trojan horse. They're saying race, race, race on the outside, but inside is a whole agenda that has nothing to do with race whatsoever. So in the midst of all of that, I said, no, we need not just a response to racism, but a Catholic response to racism. 'Cause I felt the church, and I still feel the church is perfectly positioned to deal with this issue. Think about it, the bishops quite frankly, right now are lacking in moral credibility because of this ex abuse scandal. So people are saying, well, who are you to talk about these kinds of issues? Because look what you did with all those kids. And I mean, so let's be realistic reeling from that. And so in light of that, what are they doing? They're talking about safe things. Let's talk about immigration. Let's talk about the planet Earth. Let's talk about migrants. That's all fine. Those are important issues. I'm an immigrant myself. We immigrated to Jersey from Barbados. So we're first generation to come to the United States. So I get how important those issues are. But let's be real, Joe and Joe. No one's leaving the church over the planet Earth. No one's leaving the church over immigration or leaving the church 'cause they don't know Jesus Christ. - Deacon, let me ask you a question. Well, again, I mean, and that's the name of the game, but then that begs the question. Then who is to step up, let's say, where let's, like you said, with the lack of credibility on the part of, let's say, the USCCB. And again, it's rightfully so. You can't blame people for being upset with Catholic bishops. Well, then that's where we come in. - Exactly. - You see, Joe and I say you all the time, you wanna see the enemy and what I mean by the enemy. And we're not overly political at the front line with Joe and Joe, but let's face it, the political left is basically using a lot of this stuff, okay, to drive wedges in between people. You wanna see political enemies run for the hills both left and right. Catholic men stepping up and talking like you do, or talking like I do, okay. And yes, attaching ourselves to good bishops, okay, who are out there and being vocal and who have the moral credibility. And I'm glad you said what you said. Sometimes a little moral, or maybe a lot of moral shaming, all right, is due, especially like, I mean, you mentioned, let's say, the civil rights movement, okay. Martin Luther King reminding Christian America that you need to be Christian, okay, meaning you have to see all human beings that are, and you have to acknowledge they are made in the image and likeness of God. Wilberforce did the same thing 150 years ago, 200 years ago in England, when he shamed the British Parliament, he was talking about slavery, okay, did the same thing. Yeah, we need to start shaming people to say, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. You're Christian, let's say just say, I'm just using Christian in a more general sense. You're Christian, you believe all human beings are made in the image and likeness of God. You can't be racist, okay. It is a mortal sin to be racist, okay. God is going to have a problem with that. I think when men step up, people like you, people like Joe, people like me, and many, many, many others, okay. I think they start to change a little bit. The tide starts to turn a little bit. What say you? I know that was a little bit of a rant, but what say you want that? And that's why in the last part of my book, I outlined a plan for dealing with this from a Paris-based perspective, not a kind of national plan, because what is the Paris, the Paris, is the family? Saint John Paul II called the family the domestic church, the church of the home, right? So if we have strong men, we have strong families, strong families, strong church. Strong church, we take back this culture, right? So going with that kind of dynamic in my mind, I thought, we have the church, the parish family, and that's the place where we need to start really moving this thing forward. I outlined a whole plan in the last part of the book to deal with that. - Well, that's what we want to be able to talk about, I'm sorry, I cut you up, but we want to make sure people understand what we're talking about, your book, okay? Building a civilization of love, a Catholic response to racism that's available at Ignatius Press. Please, we always emphasize to our audience, please let's support not just our Catholic authors like Deacon Harold Burke-Sever's, but also our Catholic publishers like Ignatius Press. I'm sure it's available at the other places, okay? However, we'd love for you to go and buy at Ignatius. Joe Restinello, let me hand it over to you. - You know, again, let me, let me get back to your question. - Yes, yes, please, I'm sorry, Deacon. - Okay, all right, so given all of that as a background, so we'll understand why I approach this topic this way. Why is it a Catholic response to racism? I guess it gets to the very heart of who we are as a people of God, right? The foundation, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. So prejudice with regard to race, prejudice is a preconceived notion about someone because of race that's not based on any factual or objective experience, okay? And that kind of thinking leads to stereotyping. Racism is prejudice, as I've just defined it, with the added piece that the way, the reason why I'm thinking this way is because I believe my race is superior to your race. That's racism. So let me give you a clear distinction between prejudice and racism. So a few years back, I was at a parish mission. And someone came up to me and said, "Oh, Deacon, you went to Notre Dame. "What position did you play?" So someone would hear a statement like that and say, "That was racist, that was racist." Well, no, it wasn't racist, it was prejudiced. Why do I say that? In order for that state, 'cause I see the calculus in his mind, he said, athletically built black man, plus Notre Dame equals football, that he just looked at me and thought, "Oh, a guy that size, he must have played football." But so it was prejudice because I never played football in my life action. I went to say, "Benedex, prepping Newark." And as you know, St. Bendex doesn't have a football team. I wrestled for four years. Now, in order for that statement to be racist, he would have to have met when he said it. The reason why I just said that to you is I believe that someone that looks like you doesn't have the academic ability to get into a school of that caliber. And the only way that someone of your race could get into a school like that is with athletics. That would have been racist, okay? But that's not what he meant when he said it because when he found out I never played football, that actually had an academic scholarship to Notre Dame, he went, "Oh, Deacon, oh, I'm sorry." You know, he kind of backed away from it. See, what he should have said was, "Oh, you went to Notre Dame. What did you study?" Because that's what he would have asked anybody else. You see, can I ask a question? Can I ask a question, though? And again, I'm just trying to be really, one thing we try to be is really objective on this show. But do people, in fact, all right? I think people with not such great intentions, okay? Use what you just described as prejudice to say that that's racist, but to an end, I feel that there's many people in this country that are trying to divide all of us. They hate that you would come on the front line with Joe and Joe. What could you possibly have in common? He's black and you're white, that type of thing, okay? There is a difference. And I'm gonna just make one quick comment. I'm gonna throw it over to you 'cause it is a question, okay? In Newark, New Jersey, growing up, what I saw a lot of was prejudice. Now, when I grew up, okay, I started to realize that that's what it was. It was not racism, the way it was being defined. Like you just described. Isn't it important to make that distinction? Yes or no? - Well, I just wanna jump in too. And what that is, basically, it's power versus love. I don't love you. I have to love you, you see? And you said something interesting in the beginning, why people are leaving the church? They're leaving the church because they don't know Christ. When we see Christ in the Eucharist, my eyes are open. I see the problems in the church. I'm never leaving the church, where am I going? Because I know who Christ is. I know when I go to confession, my sins are forgiven. I also know when I see the Eucharist, I see people, God in people, all people. So the difference, Joe, and my view is, I'm looking for earthly power and I see an edge and I can get it, whether I'm white or black, or I see a person who's created in the image and likeness of God and I see God in him. And I teach my kids this all the time, treat people as you wanna be treated. It's the golden rule, but we can do it on our own. Because we all have our prejudices, our experiences. People live with different types of people. They're treated a certain way on both sides of the political aisle and both sides of the racial divide. And they develop prejudices. - Well, I'm not gonna lie to you. I mean, when I went to Seton Hall Prep, Deakin, all right, I'm not gonna lie to you. Growing up in Newark, in Newark, New Jersey, I was prejudiced against Irish kids because I didn't know many of them. Now with the Seton Hall Prep and all of a sudden I realized there were Irish Catholics in the world, all right? But I had a prejudice against them because I just grew up with all Italians, okay? And then after going to school with them for about three or four months and becoming friends with them, then all that nonsense goes out the window and you realize their families are just like mine, all right? Blue collar, Catholic, trying to get their kids, you know? So again, Joe made a comment. I made a comment. I'm gonna throw it back over to you about the importance of that distinction is where I was going, Deakin. - No, exactly right. And you gotta understand where these prejudices come from. You know, I make the case in the book that we're not born or we're not innately prejudiced because if you look just anecdotally for kids playing on the playground, five-year-old, six-year-old kids playing on the playground, they're not saying I'm not gonna play with you 'cause you're Asian. I'm not gonna play with you 'cause you're Hispanic. Mate, they don't do that, they're just kids playing. They just having fun, they don't care. They're not looking at those kinds of distinctions, but what happens over time? We get exposed to media, television, movies, social media, jokes from parents. We see comedians, we see all these different things and because we don't have direct experience with people of those different races, right? We begin to think, well, all Italians are this way, all Asians are this way, all black people are this way, all this way, and so that's where these prejudices come from. And so my point is that's learned behavior. So if we can learn something, my point in the book is we can unlearn it, right? But it has to go back to what Joe said, we have to see the image and likeness of God in the person standing in front of us. And we could talk more about that later, but to me, that's the first key that has to be turned if we're gonna open the door to bring racial healing and division into the life of the church. - Well, I think I'm glad you said that we have to unlearn things. Well, then that implies there's a teacher. Well, who's the greatest, who's a better teacher than Jesus Christ in his church at the end of the day, okay? So if you wanna pay attention to the moral precepts of the church and stop getting caught up in the fog, you'll understand if you call yourself Christian in general and particularly if you're Catholic, okay? This is some more racism and we'll talk about what racism is in a little bit too, like stone cold because it exists, let's face it, okay? And how Christ and his church are the antidote to that. If you're just joining us here at the front line with Joe and Joe, we're being joined by Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers. He has written a new book, Building a Civilization of Love, a Catholic Response, a Catholic Response to Racism. Please buy it from Ignatius Press, Joe Ressinella. - I think where America has gone wrong, and you could disagree with me, is I believe we're in a post-Christian society. I think that we were never in a perfect society. America was never a Catholic society, but we are basically living in a society where a lot of our institutions are run by secular humanists. They're trying to legislate morality. Many of them are well-intentioned, but it's not grounded in God. And anything that's not grounded in God does not have a solid foundation. That's just proven through history. I think that's where we're off. I think that's what we're seeing and why our country has become unmoored. I mean, we're all around the same age. We all grew up in the same area. And frankly, for a long time, again, the country wasn't perfect, but we didn't see this crazy situation that basically started with the incident with George Floyd. I mean, racism is bad right now. I mean, it's bad. I mean, I didn't grow up in the '60s, but I've never lived through this. But I think the difference between Martin Luther King and what's being talked about now as far as solutions, it's not grounded in the gospel. You said that. It simply isn't. It's grounded in secular humanism. They're trying to legislate morality, and that doesn't work. Address that because I do think that's what we're seeing across many of the institutions, college level, government, corporations, are trying to do the same thing. And frankly, it's not gonna work. - Yeah, Jesus warns us about this, right? And the gospel doesn't he say, if you don't listen to me into my words, it's like a man who built his house on sand. The wind came, the rains came, and washed that house away. And what you're talking about, Joe, we're trying to build a government, a country, a society on moral relativism, the shifting sands of moral relativism. And what are the foundational principles of moral relativism? That may be true for you, but that's not true for me. That may be your truth, but that's not my truth. I'm not religious, I'm spiritual. So what happens when you build on a foundation like that? The shifting, the winds and the rains and the storms of transgender ideology, of so-called redefinition of marriage, of abortion, of racism, those things will knock you to the ground. And that's what's happening in our society today. Jesus says, you know, if you listen to me in my words, like a man who built his house on stone, on a rock foundation, the winds came, and the rain came, and that house stood strong and firm. So what we're not seeing, we're not seeing a solid foundation. And what is the solid foundation is Jesus Christ? Because you talked about truth. Jesus Christ says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, not a truth, not any other way. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, the life. And so if we build the foundation on him, then no matter what happens, we're gonna stand strong and firm because we built our foundation on the rock of faith itself. Who is the living God, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. - Deacon Harold Burke-Severz is joining us here at the Frontline with Joe and Joe. Please go out and buy his book. I wanna, we have a few minutes, Deacon, before the break. The book is building a civilization of love, a Catholic response to racism. Let's spend a couple minutes 'cause we're gonna mix it up a little bit on the other side of the break, okay? But I want you to define something for Joe and I and for our audience, okay? I think one of the things, aside from race and prejudice and things like that, that gets thrown around the word that gets thrown around as love, I don't think that people understand or have a proper, there is a proper definition of love, okay? The Catholic teaches what that love is and how it manifests itself in your life. Talk about that, please, because unlike when we grew up in the 1970s and Ali McGraw and love stories, they love is never having to say you're sorry, which is just a sappy nonsense, okay? Love is real, it hurts, okay? I'm gonna throw it over to you 'cause I think you know where I'm going with this. We got a couple of minutes before the break. What is love and how does it manifest itself in your life? Yeah, so in the Bible talks about four types of love. In fact, C.S. Lewis even writes about this in his book called The Four Loves. There's Storgae, which is a familial love, like a love between family members. There's Eros, which is an erotic sensual physical type of love. There's Philia, which is friendship love, like Philla Delphia, right, the city of brotherly love. And then there's Agape, which is a self-giving, self-sacrificing love. That's the love that Jesus focuses his whole ministry on. A love that gives itself away. A love that breaks itself open and pours itself out for the other, for the sake of the other. That is never focused on itself. It's always focused on what's best for the other person. And that's the kind of love that Jesus talks about. That's the kind of love that he died for, right? That Agape love, or in Hebrew, it's called merciful love. Has said this merciful love. That's the foundation. And when we start to see each other, the way that God sees us, and we could talk about what that means. I could talk about what it means to be made in the image and lightness of God in Genesis 127. Once we see other people like that love, that Agape love, that has said love begins to flow naturally out of us, because that is the love that God has imparted to every single human being made in his image and lightness. And we have to tap into that love, 'cause you're right. We're being inundated by a society that wants to create, and instead of being made in the image and lightness of God, it's trying to create God in its own image and lightness. And when you do that, you have chaos and disorder, which is what we're seeing today. - Peter, let me spend the final minute before the break on this though. Well, that's why I brought it up. Part of the problem in America is we're too self-absorbed. See, now we talk about the left, but we could talk about, let's say, for argument's sake, your Chamber of Commerce, knee-jerk capitalist Republicans, okay, who worship at the altar of the free market, okay? And Joe and I are free marketeers. We believe in free markets, but it's not an idol, okay? We live a consumerist society. We're selfish self-lessness, which is required if you call yourself a Christian. It's not an option, okay? It's not an option, like on a car, you can do without it, all right? No, what's required is that we've lost that sense of self-sacrifice last minute before the break the weekend. Talk about the need to get back to sacrifice in this country that we seem to have lost because of our consumerist mentality. - No, you're exactly right. I mean, both my wife and I are entrepreneurs and I believe in free market capitalism as well, but that's a tool to an end, right? And what that takes is sacrifice. Canosis in Greek, it's that self-giving, self-sacrificing love. And that's the love that is the foundation for family life, for marriage, for all relationships. It's a sacrificial love. I want to do not what's best for me, that's what's best for them. That's what Jesus did on the cross. That's why the cross is not a symbol of desolation. It's not a symbol of defeat. It's a symbol of hope. It's a symbol of the ultimate symbol of love. That is an act of complete and perfect love. No greater love Jesus says a man has that to lay down his life for his friend to sacrifice. And if we're going to really deal with this issue of racism in a meaningful way in the life of the church, we need to have it rooted in a love that sacrificial. That's a love that always looks at what's best for the other. - Absolutely, Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers joining us here at the Frontline with Joe and Joe. We're going to take a quick break. Please go out and buy his book, Building a Civilization of Love, a Catholic Response to Racism. Deacon, we know it's available at Ignatius Press. We'd love everybody to buy it there, but where else is it available? - Well, I'd like people to support their local Catholic bookstores as well. You know, go to your brick and mortar store and get it there. - All right, absolutely. So Deacon, we're going to come right back. We're going to take a quick break and we're going to make sure we give you probably any time later on to let everybody know what you have going on right now, social media, all that fun stuff, and where they could connect with you. So stick around. We have another great segment with Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers. We'll be right back. Catholic radio works, and now we have it here in Connecticut and New York. It's been seen around the country that there's no better tool for evangelization. Where there's Catholic radio, the folks who listen deep in their faith, families are strengthened, parishes and communities flourish. So let people know you're listening to Veritas, tell your friends to tune in, and let's make an impact here for Jesus and his church. This is Steve Lee for Veritas Catholic Network. - Welcome back everyone to the front line with Joe and Joe. Joe Pacillo, Joe Recinello. We're way in the breach with Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers, and we're speaking about his new book, Building a Civilization of Love, a Catholic Response to Racism, which is available at Ignatius Press. Deacon reminded me of something I should have said. Go to your local parish bookstore, ask the owner of the bookstore to order the book from Ignatius, put it on the shelf, 'cause we know people are going to want to buy it. Joe Recinello, where do you want to go? - You can help. You said something I think that's very important, agape love. And I want to talk about that in relation to racism, because ultimately Christ has the answers. You mentioned He is the truth. I'm a firm believer in that. He's not the custom. He is the truth. And as Catholics, we have the fullness of truth. I've been a catechist for 30 years. I've been teaching the truth as it's written. I don't make it up right from the catechism as it's written. It's not my truth. I'd have to just pass it along. With that said, that only goes so far. I've learned that I have to pour myself out. If I really mean what I say, I have to die to myself completely, completely. In my home, in what I do, and that's agape love. And that's what Martin Luther King did. You see, that's the difference. Martin Luther King went to jail. Martin Luther King poured himself out. That's what we have to do. Not necessarily go to jail, but maybe. You see, that's how Catholic men are gonna change this culture. We have to put our money where our mouth is. We have to die to ourself in a real way. And then our words will have metal. Then our words will have impact. But until then, they come to a point. You see, when we pray the rosary, got one in my hand, when we pray the luminous mysteries, Christ is, goes forth after the wedding of Kana to proclaim the gospel. He didn't have a roof over his head. He walked amongst the people. He didn't just preach it, he lived it. You see, that's what's missing in our church, in my opinion. That's what's missing on the front lines of race. We have to walk amongst the people. We have to be one of them. We don't just go there and then leave. We gotta live there. Your thoughts on that, because I think that's the answer to everything. Not just racism, but the Catholic answer, where people, their eyes are open, because they see the crucified Lord in people. That's what's missing. That's what needs to be understood from the highest levels down, from the Cardinals right down to the people in the pew. America changes tomorrow. - Yeah, exactly, and it goes back to what I said earlier. It starts with seeing the image and lightness of God and the person standing in front of you. So let's just take a look at those words, for example. So we see it all the time, right? We're made in the image and lightness of God. We said it several times ourselves during this conversation, but what does that actually mean? The word image is a selem in Hebrew. It's a masculine noun, which means someone that stands opposite or parallel to you. No, it's a shadow that's the outline and representation of the original, right? So a shadow that's the outline and representation of the original. So if I'm standing in the light, I'm casting a shadow. Is the shadow me? Well, no, it's the image. It's the outline, it's the representation of me. But if I move, my arm, the shadow moves with me. What does that mean spiritually? Are we God? No, of course not. But second Peter chapter one, verse four, says we are partakers into divine nature. First Corinthians chapter six, 19. Paul says our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit that we have within us from God. In Genesis two, chapter nine, it says that God breathed into the nostrils, the breath of life. Nishmak Rakh, Ka'im in Hebrew. Beautiful phrasing for God pouring the very life of the Holy Spirit into us. We're not God, but we have God's image, God's outline imprinted onto our souls. So what does that mean? Like you move in the shadow moves with you? When we speak, this is the idea before the fall, when we speak, we're reflecting the speech of God. When we think we're reflecting the mind of God. And when we love, we're reflecting the love of God. See, that's how a Hebrew person would have understood what it means to be made in God's image. What about likeness, they move in Hebrew? It's a feminine now, which means similar. So what does that mean spiritually? Let's just say that there was a statue of me on one side of my son Benjamin on the other side. Now you would say they both look like me 'cause they're both in my likeness. In fact, the statue looks more like me than my son. But what does my son have that the statue doesn't have? In essence, a nature, a being. So even though the statue looks more like me, my son is much more in my likeness. You see, that's what those words mean. So now that we have that kind of understanding, we as Catholics use that as a, what's called a hermeneutic or interpretive key for understanding the way that Jesus love manifests itself in the world, especially when we give that love away from ourselves to the other person. So once we see, like Mother Teresa did, Mother Teresa saw Jesus Christ in every single person she ministered to. This wasn't just a beggar, not just a leper, not just a person with this horrible disease, she saw Jesus. And that's why she was able to accomplish the amazing things that she did. And that's why Martin Luther King was to accomplish the amazing things that he did because they had that beautiful foundation of seeing the understanding what it means to be made in the image lights of God and using that self-giving, self-sacrificing love to give themselves a way to enter into that person's experience and bring the love of God there. - I wanna talk about that because that means we have to make ourselves vulnerable. You see, there are people we have, you see, that's what we don't wanna do. You know, there are people who hate me because they have a preconceived notion of me. I have to break that barrier by making myself vulnerable. You know, you stop traffic when you do that. You stop traffic when someone sees you in a light outside of the way that they perceive you. And in doing that, you have to be vulnerable. You see, we're afraid to do that as people, all people. It's uncomfortable, but that's what Jesus did. Jesus, everything he did was he made himself vulnerable. Why are you talking to this person, his own people said that to him. Why are you talking to this person? You see, that's what we have to do, but we're afraid. We're afraid. And the fear bleeds away when you really know who God is. You really know who he is. He's real, he's real. And what he said is right and true. And even if it doesn't feel right, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. You see, that's how we change the world. That's how we break down those walls in my view. My wife and I go to a Polish-American parish. My wife's Haitian-American and I'm Italian. I walk down the aisle with my five kids. Everybody's like, who are these people? Who are they? I'm just like you. I'm just like you. And they smile 'cause they say it. That's what we have to do. But at first, you're vulnerable. You feel weird. You're like, holy goodness gracious. Everyone's looking at me. Who cares? What are your thoughts? Both of you. I think that's where we're afraid. We're afraid. But once we, it's like a fog though. Once you step through the fog and the fog's back, you're back. And then you gain ground and you change people. What do you guys think? Dig a place? - Yeah, no, absolutely. I could agree with you more. But think about what happened to the last few hours of Jesus' life. He was in the agony of the garden, right? He was afraid. He was so scared that he sweated blood. You know, and by the way, there's a physician in San Antonio, Texas who's an expert in that condition. And he will tell you that can actually, you could be so afraid that the blood vessels underneath your skin pop and you'll begin to sweat out of your sweat pores, you begin to sweat blood. I mean, that can happen where the fear is so intense. But what do you say, not my will, but your will be done? And first John 4 19 says, "Perfect love casts out all fear." So what got Jesus to the cross? It was love. It was love. Like Joe P said, that self-giving, self-sacrificing love, Jesus saw the light at the end of the tunnel. That death is not the end. That love is conquerors' death. And Jesus' love was so intense, so personal, so intimate that he became vulnerable. He, remember, he was crucified naked. A lot of people, I don't think they realize this, that if you study Roman crucifixion, they want to maximize not just the pain, but the embarrassment. They want to strip you of every ounce of human dignity you had left in your body. So they crucified you naked. And of course we put a loincloth on our Lord, you know, for dignity. But he was completely vulnerable, completely humiliated. And that's where the love came from. That out of that vulnerability came the strength to be able to overcome even death itself. You know, and that's the kind of mentality we need to go into this whole racist thing as Catholics. - No, absolutely. Deacon Harold Burke said was joining us here at the front line with Joe and Joe building a civilization of love, a Catholic response to racism. That's available at Ignatius Press. Is it available at Amazon and other places also Deacon? - Yes. - Okay, so if you need to go ahead and buy it on Amazon, if not, please go to Ignatius Press. Deacon, let me, let me pivot for a second, okay? Joe and I, we get very frustrated. Like I said, this is not an overtly political show. Now me personally, when it comes to finding solutions to major problems like things like we're talking about, sometimes people get caught up in their political parties, political power, things like that. Joe and I are of the opinion. Now Deacon, let me be clear. This is not a gotcha type thing. We don't do that here, okay? But this is our view and we love your comments on it, okay? Joe and I think the two most grave examples amongst others, but the two most grave examples of systemic racism, and we hear a lot about that, all right? Our big abortion and big education, okay? We think the people that run those two industries, okay? Yes, we do not believe they're well-intentioned people. We think that they use the African American community, and I'm gonna give you an example and I'm gonna throw it right over to you. Let's stay with education. You mentioned you went to St. Benedict's Prep, a constant story that Joe and I tell on the show all the time. In the state of New Jersey, if you wanna send your child to central high school, it costs a state 28, it probably has gone up in the last couple years, but let's just say $28,000 a year, okay? That it costs a tax payer to send their kid to a school that graduates three out of 10 kids and pretty much nobody goes to college. For half that amount of money in the state of New Jersey, all those who preach to us about race refuse to give a lot of those mothers, let's face it, a lot of those are single moms in New Jersey, refuse to give those mothers a $14,000 check so they can send their kid to St. Benedict's Prep, where there's a 100% graduation rate and 99% of the kids go to college. I'm gonna throw this to you, Deacon, that's racism to me. Okay, leaving aside, I don't need to even go into abortion and how African Americans are used on that particular issue. Let's keep it with those two things. Am I off in your view? - Yeah, so the other distinction I make in the book is institutional racism versus people in institutions who are racist, okay? So you show, I think some clear examples of racism like from the past, slavery, duh, right? Jim Crow laws, redlining, the Tuskegee syphilis experiments. And I agree with you, 100% abortion. I think this whole thing about vouchers. I mean, see, I think those are elements of institutional racism, again, as opposed to people in institutions who are racist. So there are many institutions that are no longer racist or they don't long have racist policies, but you have people in the institutions that are racist. For example, at a bank, you have someone who's making loans and there's objective criteria that has nothing to do with race, objective criteria. So say an Asian person meets all the criteria for granting the loan, but the person says, you know what, I don't think Asians pay back their loans. You know, I don't think this guy's gonna pay it back. So I'm not gonna give them the loan. That, see, the institution itself is not racist but people, institutions that are racist. Now you gotta remember we talked about abortion and I mentioned this in the book. Margaret Sanger was a eugenicist and a racist. There's no question about that. She says, in one of her writings, again, this is a Library of Congress. You can look it up for yourself. It says that we don't want the people to know we're trying to exterminate the Negro population. Her words exterminate the Negro population. And that's what Planned Parenthood does and that's what abortion is all about, especially in black communities. Hell, in New York City, a couple of years ago, more black people, black babies died by abortion than were born alive. - We said that, Deacon, we sit on a show all the time. That's a stone cold statistic, go ahead, good. - Yeah, and we're of a lot of these obituaries in neighborhoods of color. - They ain't Scarsdale. - They ain't Scarsdale. - They ain't in Scarsdale. - They're not in short hills, very short. - You know, and the thing is, Deacon, people think that Joe and I are being, let's say, political when we say that. No, we speak of these things in moral terms. That's the reason why you're on the show. - Look, it has nothing to do with politics. This is a life and death issue that has become politicized. So that's what, don't let them turn it over. It's not a political issue. It's a life and death issue that has become politicized. That's the issue. - But what's the difference? It's truth. You see, what you just mentioned was a level playing field of truth. You mentioned both sides of the argument. That's not what's going on because it's not about truth. It's about power. Power, I want power. I'm gonna leave off the inconvenient truth because it doesn't suit my agenda and I have an agenda. Christ has an agenda too. And as Catholic men, we have to have the same agenda. Truth, level, equal, consisting in season, out of season. I have no agenda. My agenda is the gospel. My agenda is love, which is truth itself 'cause Jesus is love and he is the truth. See, that's what's missing from the conversations. And too many people are glued to those conversations. Listening to their political funding 'cause all they wanna do is be affirmed. They're not interested in truth. I wanna be affirmed. Yes, yes, I'm right. But then you challenge that person. You bring up something like that. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's uncomfortable. Well, again, what are you looking for? Power or truth? And I think that's what it is. We have to be honest with ourselves. Yeah. And that's why Joe and Joe, gosh, you guys are nailing it today. Look, that's exactly why the most controversial part of my book is the middle section. Where I talk about critical race theory, Black Lives Matter movement, liberation theology. Now, why do I talk about those things? I didn't incorporate them into the book in order to overtly criticize them. I thought, you know, the only ways I even brought those things in because there were Catholics who were trying to bring those ideologies into the church and saying, look, here's three different ways that we can help solve this problem. And people were all upset, they were critical, they were attacking. I said, hold on, hold on. Let me be objective here. I don't really know what critical race theory is. I don't know a whole lot about the Black Lives Matter movement. Liberation theology, I did know about it. I wrote a paper on it in graduate school. So I knew something about that. But let me, people are saying that we need to bring these things in order to make things better. Let me see for myself. So let's say critical race theory, for example. I thought maybe there's something there. And if I say how bad it is, but maybe there's something that we can use as Catholics that will actually help us to bring down the racial divide. So I bought the books of Derrick Bell, Richard Delgado, Richard Delgado, Janice Defanic, Kimberly Crenshaw. These are the people who are the developers and the founders of critical race theory thinking, let me read what they have to say for themselves. Now, what this political pundit says, not what this Catholic blogger says, let me read what they say themselves about what critical race theory is and see if there's something that we can bring into the church. And the answer is no. Just based on their own writings, what they say. In fact, Derrick Bell says that the Christian approach to racism is worthless. So if critical race theory is saying that it's worthless, why are we even bringing it into the church? I guarantee that people who are trying to bring this into the church have no idea what this is, none. And that's why I end up to have this, I wanted to actually write about all three in one chapter 'cause I didn't want to really give them a big voice. But the more I discovered the more I researched the more I realized, oh my goodness, I need to separate these three things out. And again, the only reason I talk about them 'cause there were Catholics who were trying to bring them into this discussion as a way to ameliorate racism when it's actually gonna make things much worse because it's like Joe said, it's not based on love, it's based on power and control. - Right, and that's, and one of the, but we all know here, okay, if you want to challenge power, particularly in prevailing powers that be right now, okay, the ones that probably hate the three of us, all right, then the first thing you gotta do is you gotta open your mouth and you can't be afraid, okay? Jesus says be not afraid, okay? I'm not afraid, okay, to talk about race. Let's be fair, let's be clear, Deacon Harold, there's a lot of people in America that are afraid to talk about race. They're uncomfortable talking about it, they don't know how to deal with it, they watch their language. And again, I'm not talking about not being civil, okay? I think even though Joe and I are a couple of loudmouth Italians from New Jersey, okay, we're fairly civil guys, okay? But we get angry, okay? That people are afraid to speak up, like you just said. You know that if anybody, there's gonna be a lot of people listening to this interview on social media who might agree with critical race theory and BLM and all that stuff. And they'll hate you for saying what you said. How did you not agree with critical race theory? Embrim, Kendi agrees with critical race. So what, what does that mean to me? People are afraid, and this is where I'm going, I'm gonna throw it over to you. We gotta stop being afraid. We gotta stop being, we gotta stop fearing speaking the truth. What you just said and you devoted three chapters in your book to it is exposing, I think you would agree, lies, all right, and if you want real misinformation, okay, and disinformation, you look no further than then critical race theory and BLM and all that, okay? And you're not, you're not a fearful guy because you have Jesus. Again, remember this is a conversation about your book, building a civilization of love, a Catholic response to racism. You know where I'm going, Deacon, I'll throw it over to you. Yes, we're not supposed to fear. - Yeah, exactly. So if you look at what I do in the book, I'm not overtly attacking them. I'm looking at, here's what they say, does this line up with what the Catholic Church teaches? That's all I looked at. There may be other applications for critical race theory. I'm not looking at it from a political, sociological or psychological perspective. I'm looking at it through the lens of, can this help us to close the racial gap to bring healing and reconciliation with regard to race? That's how I looked at it and that's how I critiqued it. And sadly, for all three, the answer is no, because it's based on finding solutions to systems and not finding solutions to people. Jesus did down a cross for a system or for an organization or ideology. He died for people. And that's where we need to start. Well, we can't not be afraid to say that, you know, because ultimately Jesus came for me and for you. And for everyone listening here, that is an intimate, personal, loving, and life-giving relationship that Jesus gave his life for. Not for an institution, not for an ideology. And unfortunately, it's just the reverse. So, you know, Jesus wants to change people so that institutions can change. These other things wanna change institutions first and somehow that's gonna change people. It's completely backwards. And if not based on love, it's based on fear. - Yeah, and it amazes me and I'm gonna hand it over to Joe Deacon 'cause we have a few minutes left. But it amazes me that someone, and again, I know they might say that we're looking at it from a Catholic point of view, but it amazes me that someone wouldn't say that no, we have, our eyes are open. See, when you have the Holy Spirit, when you have God's grace, your eyes are wide open, okay? You see things for the way they are without political blinders and anything else. How anybody could think that the Catholic response to racism isn't the appropriate response? Just as you mentioned earlier, Deacon, over and over about the being made in the image and likeness of God and all of it, self-sacrificing love and Joe mentioned vulnerability and humility. How you could think the Catholic response is not the appropriate response. To me, blows my mind. Guess what? I'll throw it over to Joe. The secular, if the Catholic church doesn't have the answer, well, neither does the secular world. Joe, rest in hello. - I wanna talk about identity because I think the problem here is identity. I identify as, whereas I should identify as a Catholic. You see, you mentioned what's it called? Liberation Theology, the famous image where as you said, it was John Paul in Central America talking to a priest. I can remember that when he went there. But that also happens on the right with conservatism. I see it and hear it. People don't even realize it. Their politics bleed into their religion. That's what liberation theology is. Communism bleeding into Catholicism. It's the same on the right. People don't even realize it. So why do I bring this up? Because it's the sin of Judas. Why did Judas betray Jesus? He loved him. He lost faith in his method. And that's what those two things are doing. I'm bleeding in a political idea into my Christianity 'cause I don't believe that the Christianity is the solution. So I'm gonna incorporate my politics, my liberalism or my conservatism in my religion. No, that is why Judas betrayed Christ. He betrayed him with a kiss. He loved him. He lost faith in him. You see, we have to take that apart. That's why we're nothing. I'm not a conservative. I'm not a liberal. I'm not a Republican. I'm not a Democrat. I'm a Catholic. And everything I see comes through that lens. My identity is that and that alone. But I think we don't believe that that's gonna solve it. So we bring in our politics. We bring in our identities, your thoughts. 'Cause I think that's what's happening. - Degan, we got about two minutes left. I wanna leave at least 30 seconds or so off you to tell our audience where to go by the book and what you got going on. - Yeah, I'll address that real quick. Some of the early critiques of people who have read those chapters of my book. So when you're not really black, how could a black Catholic say that? And I say, I'm not a Catholic. I'm not a black Catholic. I'm a Catholic who's black. What do you mean? Are you denying your identity? Your black identity? I said, no. When I die and stand before Jesus Christ, he's not gonna ask me how black I am. He's gonna say, did you pick up your cross and follow me? I gave you three talents. Fatherhood, husbandhood and deaconate. Where's my 30, 1500-fold return on the investment I made to you? That's what he's gonna ask. So my identity is not who I have sex with, not my race, not my color, not my gender, not my identity. My identity is a son of the living God, a brother of Jesus Christ, someone who picks up his cross and follows Jesus Christ every single day of my life. My identity is in Jesus Christ. Degan, that's where you start. That's my identity. I do not allow this culture to define who I am. I am defined by the living God himself. - I would love to be on a panel discussion with you, me and Joe Restonello, making that very point because, and we can't talk about it now. Hopefully, Dee, can we have you back? And we'll get into a whole conversation about identity. Amen, brother. We say on the show all the time, I will not allow you to define how I identify myself. I am a Roman Catholic American male of Italian descent. That's what I am in that order. Amen, brother. - Let me just say real quick, let me just say real quick. So now that you see who I am, I'm a little, once you see me that way, now you're able to appreciate all the other gifts that I have, my culture, my food, my color, my music, my everything, 'cause now you see me as a child of God and as image and likeness, now I'm able to appreciate all the other accoutrements that comes with being how I express that identity in Christ in the world. - Absolutely. Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers joining us here at the Frontline with Joe and Joe, building a civilization of love, a Catholic response to racism. Real quick, Deacon, 30 seconds. What do you got going on? We're gonna audience, find you social media, all that fun stuff. - Yeah, deaconharel.com, all my social media, all my articles, everything you need to find about what I'm doing is there. I got a new radio show starting on EWTN. In February, it's called "The Beacon of Truth" with Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers. I'm excited about that. And for more information, just keep watching my website, deaconharel.com. - Awesome, thank you. Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're stuck now, you're part of the family, so you're gonna have to come back all the time, all right? But this has been, I think, important and very wonderful conversation, very enlightening. Okay, and seriously, thank you for coming on and we mean it from our hearts. You're welcome back here any time, brother. - Thank you for having me. It's been great to be with some Jersey compatriots. All right, love it. - There you go, there you go. All right, and thank you all out there for joining us at the Veritas Catholic Radio Network, 1350 on your AM dial, 103.9 on your FM dial, spreading the truth of the Catholic faith in the New York City metropolitan area. Download the app, share it with your friends. Please, please, please, wherever you see this video on social media, share it. Hit the like button, subscribe button, help Joe and I out, but please share this video. This is a great conversation, I think a lot of people that need to hear, so thanks once again and remember, until the next time, that our conversation is your conversation and that conversation is going on everywhere. We'll talk to you soon. (upbeat music) (rock music)
