Gateway to Baseball Heaven: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

GTBH 9/8/24: Miles To Go

Every week, two of the Best Fans in Baseball (TM) bring you all the news and analysis you need about the St. Louis Cardinals. After another very rough outing by Miles Mikolas, Daniel (@C70) and David (@iPopEditor) try to figure out his place on the team and how likely it is he'll be finishing out his contract in 2025. Gary Larocque stepped down as Director of Player Development this week. How important is this hire and what signs could we get from how they fill the role? The guys also talk about Paul Goldschmidt and finish up with a good and a bad category for the Cards this season.

Duration:: 45m
Broadcast on:: 08 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Good evening and welcome into another edition. I'm the gateway to baseball heaven. I'm your host, Daniel Shumpton at C70 with me as almost always David Jones, iPod editor, David. The world has stopped spinning for you and you're able to join us again and that's a good thing. - Maybe a good thing. You know, I was thinking about Mike and Mike when they used to have their show, they would come back on the air and say back and better than ever. I feel like I'm back and about like the Cardinals, a little bit over 500. Unless I miss something. Is this team back and play off contention since I've been gone? - Well, it depends on who you ask, right? If you're asking the front office, they probably say they never left playoff contention. You're asking anybody with a little bit of realism, they would say they've been out of playoff contention. For quite some time, Cardinals are like about six and a half, I think out of the last wild card spot with what three weeks to play. - So you're telling me there's a chance? - There's always a chance, especially given the Cardinal history, but it's not a chance I would even really entertain. I don't think anybody really isn't even the front office. You know, the decisions that they have made lately kind of indicate they're trying to kind of thread the needle of not giving up on 2024, but trying to evaluate for 2025 as well. But one person that we don't really need to evaluate, I don't think after this point in time, is Miles Michaelis. Two innings today with 500 runs, I believe, given up, is ERA over the past, I think it was 15 games, it was a 644. He is running the risk of being one of the very few Cardinal pitchers that'll have a 5.5 ERA with 180 innings, I think, on a career. It hasn't been good for Miles Michaelis in quite some time. You'll get that occasional good start, but for the most part, he's been beat up quite a bit. Is there any reason to think that this isn't just gonna have to be something the Cardinals are gonna have to suffer with? They're not only there to this year, but next year with his contract as well. - Oh, I can tell you exactly what's going to happen. He is going to start the season next year as the Cardinals number three starter, and we're going to hear once again about how he's going to have a bounce-back year, how he's due for a bounce-back year, blah, blah, blah. That's definitely what's going to happen. Never mind the fact that he will turn 37 next year, and he's been really bad for two years. That's what we're going to hear because he will be right in the middle of that rotation next year, and if you're asking if there's any hope that he's better, maybe that he's better than this year, but I mean, right now, he is at best a number five starter, and I think that's even being generous. Maybe a number five starter for Memphis. - Yeah, it's been, it's been, I've looked at his baseball support page, and you know, 2023 wasn't good either. I mean, maybe in some regards was actually even worse than 2024, but I find this interesting, and I don't, I don't want to admit, I don't understand all this because they're, these advanced metrics have come along when I have gotten old, and I can like, okay, cool. But at 2023, he had a negative run value on his fastball of negative 13, and had positive run values on this breaking pitches, and was actually fairly good on his off speed. His off speed was plus five, it was on the 90th percentile. This year, his fastball is the only thing that's good, and his breaking ball and off speed stuff are down in the, you know, well, his breaking balls in the 1%, and the off speed is in the 6%. It's weird to see him, I mean, just on the face of that, kind of flipped the script, and just still be bad, just in completely different ways. - Yeah, and this is where, you know, I don't like to bash analytics 'cause I'm a big believer in analytics, but sometimes it's just, you look at the eye test, and you see what you're looking at on the field, because you know, something else that goes along with that, his walk percentage is one of the best in all of baseball, but that also might mean that he's putting the ball right in the middle of the plate all the time. - Yeah, occasionally, let's walk a guy, shall we? Instead of giving up a double or triple. - Yeah, and so maybe that's also playing a role. And you know, we talked earlier, it was not on a podcast, but we just talked about how earlier in the year, if you looked at things like FIP, F-I-P, it was telling us that Lance Lynn was a better pitcher than Kyle Gibson, but anybody who had watched their games to that point knew that that was not the case, or even close to it, even though people say FIP is kind of the more realistic ERA. So sometimes I think those analytics just lie, or you got to dig a little bit deeper, and they're finding, they're telling a different story, but yeah, this is one of those cases where the fastball run value may look pretty good, but we're seeing that ball go a long way out of the park when it gets hit. - Yeah, well, and everything else is as well. It's, it is frustrating to see this, and the miles Michael has experienced, ever since he's been in St. Louis, has been an up and down type of situation. And the Cardinals have, I think the Cardinals got very excited about the fact that they grabbed a guy out of the Asian leagues that nobody necessarily was looking at, and he came over and had such a great, what, 2018, that the handings signed for a year with an option, and they immediately signed that through that option way and gave him like two years. And then that didn't pan out, and about the time he had a good year in '22, he got another contract extension, and we've seen what that looks like. It feels like the Cardinals have had chances to cut ties with the miles Michael list, but they didn't quite want to do that because in part, because he's, you know, at times is the kind of guy that you would think the Cardinals would like, but also for, I think, for the fact that they got a little bit of, you know, I don't want to say big head, but they were really kind of maybe committed a lot to him because, you know, they were able to make the model work, and they brought over a guy that, you know, in his first year in St. Louis is a down ballot, Cy Young votes guy. I think that that's part of it, right? That they're just kind of excited about the fact that they hit on something, and the fact that it hasn't been good for a while doesn't mean that they're still not excited about, well, he used to be good. - Yeah, that's absolutely right. He's been under contract with the Cardinals for six seasons, and he's had two good seasons. So that's four seasons you're talking about where he's either been bad or been okay. - Well, and in 2020, he didn't even play at all. - Yeah, yeah, true, very true, yeah. And so, yeah, I guess that's right. So you're talking really seven seasons. - Yeah, yeah. - Oh, he's been good for two of them. And this is a guy they've tried it out there before as their opening day starter, or maybe their number two. I mean, I don't know if he's ever been lower than number two in their rotation since he's been a Cardinal. But it does kind of feel like, you know, the Cardinals sometimes seem to get sentimental, and I think you go back, I think they're still like paying him because of that 2018 season. Maybe the 2022 season a little bit, but they're still kind of latched onto that, and you hear things like, well, he lives in Jupiter, and that's where the Cardinals are, and so it's a good fit there as well. You know, it's one of those things that if the key was the Cardinals fifth starter, I don't think the spotlight is as big here, and I don't think the criticism's as strong. And also at that point, maybe you also have them out of the rotation at this point, but the fact that they keep trying to come out there as one of their top tier guys, it just makes the issue look even more glaring at this point, and he has not been the ace that they need. He has not been the number two that they've needed for several seasons, and he's still under contract for one more. - Yeah, yeah, running through Cott's contracts, the way they have it's sorted. He's the fourth highest paid player on the Cardinals. Now, I don't, I think feel like Sunny Gray has got a bear contract overall, but maybe, but you know, three years, 55.75 million, it's a lot of money to a guy like this. He's making 16 million next year. And in granted, we talk about how what the pitching staffs are like nowadays and what you can get for 16 million, but it still feels like they need to kind of shift gears. Now, I will say, I'm looking at baseball reference, new reference to FIP a while ago. Right now, his FIP is 418, which would be his third best FIP since he's been a Cardinal. And then I think that kind of goes along with your, some of this stuff doesn't seem to match the eye test. I feel like maybe FIP doesn't, and I'm going to show my ignorance here. No, it does count in Homer. I was going to say I didn't count in Homer runs, but you know, it seems weird. Maybe it's overperforming, I don't know, but I don't think anybody expects him to regress to a four pitcher next year, do they? - No, I wouldn't think so. And one thing we've talked about with Michaelis on here is, you know which Michaelis you're getting right away. And maybe that's why we feel like things are worse than the FIP shows, but you know right away when he goes out in pitches, 'cause he's going to give up, if it's the bad Michaelis, he's giving up two or three runs in the first two innings. If it's the good Michaelis, he's going to go shut the door right away and you know you might get six from him. And so, yeah. And you know, there was that, I don't know if it was last year or the year before, he had that season where it was like a rough start where like just a crazy game in Colorado and everything that just went wrong. And I guess last year against Toronto, just some weird stuff that it felt like it wasn't his fault, but you start looking at the whole body of work over several seasons and he just hasn't been good. You don't have, you just don't have any confidence when he takes the mound. Sometimes when I watch him pitch, just the way the ball is going, the lack of movement, it feels like he's throwing batting practice sometimes. And frankly, I'm actually pretty shocked when he goes out there and throws six innings and only gives up one run or something like that because it doesn't look like his stuff is great. It looks pretty flat. But yeah, this is one of those things where, you know, I'll say this, I was with the NFL coming back this week. I was kind of doing a little fun or depressing game in my head and saying what would happen if MLB contracts were like NFL contracts where money was not guaranteed and you may sign a guy for four years, but you cut him after one year or two years. And I thought if the Cardinals did their contracts or MLB did their contracts like the NFL, you could make a case that four out of the Cardinals, five starters are gone next year because they would have been cut because teams would not want to pay them the guaranteed money that they're owed because they're not worth that. And that is a very depressing thing to think that 80% of the rotation would be gone because they are not worth what they're going to be paid next year. But they will be here. They will be paid. And this is kind of what we're stuck with. And again, it's why I've said many times I think this organization is looking towards 2026. - Well, yeah, I think that if it wasn't for, man, you know, part of me thinks that, you know, they're talking about cutting down payroll and stuff like that. And so it's very hard to imagine them eating that contract, right? If any of these pitchers, much less, are more than one. Even if they try to trade them off, they're going to have to pay what, 10, 11, 12, $13 million. And at that point, it's like, well, we should just have them pitch for us because we're having to pay for all this as well plus their replacement. But yeah, I think it's absolutely the case that there would be a lot of people not here next year. And it's, it is hard. Now, you know, maybe this front off a shakeup that we think is coming and all that, maybe they can convince Bill to win that they need to move on from at least one of these guys, if only for the fact that, you know, running my, if you start your season with Miles Michaelas is your three, nobody's going to buy tickets, but it's really hard to imagine that. And it's hard to imagine the Cardinals, you know, again, it's a guy they've invested in, the guy that has invested in them. He's wanted to be that leader that after Adam Wainwright left and maybe he is in the clubhouse. It's not translating on the field, although maybe it is compared to Adam Wainwright's last season. So it's really, really hard to imagine them just letting him go, even if the finances didn't come into play. Yeah, I just don't see how it's going to happen. You just can't, well, you can release a guy making that much money and just try to write it off, but that money's being used against you. And so that's, the Cardinals just aren't going to do that. We could argue or discuss all day that they should, but it's just not going to happen. He is going to be part of their rotation next year, barring an injury of some sorts, and they're gonna hope they can get him right. And it's basically just going to be them trying to get anything out of the contract that they can. Maybe there's a chance, I don't think so, but maybe there's a chance you do find a trade partner and the Cardinals eat up 70% of the contract. But even then, I just don't see that happening. Yeah, yeah, it's really difficult. And I feel like that we've got this picture, the offense has a possibilities for next year, right? I mean, we kind of thought that going into this year, but we're seeing some interesting things, I think, out of that. But it's hard to get too optimistic about those guys when you know that this is the rotation they're gonna have to deal with. And when six runs might not be enough, when seven runs might not be enough, even if they're all clicking on cylinders, they just may not be able to handle this rotation. And that makes it difficult to believe in any kind of good 2025. Yeah, man, this is a positive podcast, isn't it? Yeah, we're all horrified about the good stuff. But it is realistic. I mean, the questions that people are talking about right now are, you know, what do they do with Miles Michaels next year? And will Paul Goldschmidt be back? And the questions going into the off season, they're gonna surround more of the coaching staff than they're gonna actually surround the roster because the roster is pretty much set in stone with only a few changes here or there. So yeah, that's kind of where we're at. 2025 is not looking pretty for the Cardinals right now. For the people that love the hot stove and the off season, the winter meetings, you're not gonna get a lot of fun this time of year this season when that comes around. It is kind of depressing. I mean, if you want to have some hope, you kind of have to turn your attention to the prospects, to the Quinn Matthews, the JJ weather holds and pay attention to them because right now at the big league level, it just ain't happening. - Yeah, yeah. And like you said, you've said it a number of times over this year that they really are focusing on 2026 and it really feels like that's gonna have to be the case because it just doesn't feel like there's a way you're gonna see a mat's gone, a Michael is gone. You know, Gibson and Lynn, yeah, okay, maybe they don't pick up those options. In fact, they very well may not. But you're still starting, you know, your rotation next year is gray, which, okay, that's probably okay. Fettie, you hope that he is somewhat more like with the White Sox Fettie than what we've seen and you still learned about that. You know, kind of that miles Michael's regression after coming back. Andre Palante looks good. And then, yeah, Michael has some mats. And, you know, the Cardinals have been very hesitant to go out and get other starter in pitching when they have their spots locked up. And so, you know, again, we talk often about, you know, spending, if the Cardinals need to spend money, but they're, the argument against them spending money is the fact that they've got miles Michael's and Stephen Matt's in the back of their rotation. And they're kind of stuck with them because they gave them big contracts that nobody would touch right now. - Yeah, you hear the fans say, you know, ownership needs to spend and they do and it's like, not like that, what are you guys doing? Not guys that are nearing 40. And yeah, and that's, it's a waiting game right now to get some of these contracts off the books. You know, you've got to think probably Matt Carpenter is not coming back. Brandon Crawford's not coming back. Paul Goldschmidt may be back for one year, but that may be about it. Miles Michael is Stephen Matt's, like you said, they have one year left. We may be seeing the Eric Fettie that's actually the real Eric Fettie and not the guy that was kind of a superstar of Chicago. That may have been a blip on the radar. Yeah, there is some hope because you do see some of these young guys with the Cardinals. It seems like you don't have many of those in betweeners. It's either guys that are young. You've got your Mason wins, your Jordan Walkers, or you've got your guys that are in their mid 30s. Not a whole lot of guys that are right around that 29 to 32 range right now. So yeah, it feels like a waiting game, which is really frustrating because we're not used to that in St. Louis. If I remember correctly, if I heard Randy Carrick or say this, I think the last time the Cardinals had two losing seasons in a row was like the 1950s, which tells you how odd that is. And they still may not do that anyway, but they're close. So that's a little scary, but yeah, we are not used to this as Cardinals fans. It's brand new territory. And the team seems like they're caught between rebuilding but sticking with what they have. And it's just kind of a retool that doesn't seem to be going anywhere. - Yeah, it is fair to say that over the last couple of weeks, two or three weeks, they have played better overall, right? I mean, about two or three weeks ago, we were talking about what's more likely they may get to the playoffs or they finished last place in the division. Now, if you were to tell me, ask me if they're gonna finish over 500, I would say probably yes, by a game or two. Yeah, but not by much. But I still think that there's a decent chance the way they've been playing that they finish over 500. So, I mean, but again, it's too little too late and it's not, you're not gonna, I mean, it feels like we have really, the bar has slipped when we're like, okay, they might finish over 500. When, you know, just 10 years ago, we're talking about being disappointed if they didn't make the National League Championship Series. And I don't know what kind of, you know, overhaul gets you back to where you were, if anything can get you back to where they were. We saw a little bit of that start this week. Gary Larock, who has been player, director of player development and assistant GM. Since John Mosley, Larock left the position and moved up into the, into this other, into the front office a little bit farther. So he's been doing this since, I think, 2008. I announced that he was returning at the end of the year and would be an advisor next year. You can debate how much control he had over that retirement and how this was gonna play out. This may have been the golden parachute for him, as they said, you can do it this way or you can just walk out the door now. But, you know, it is still though, it is a very important position because we've talked so much about how these players are not developing in the major, in the minor leagues lately. And it does feel like the game has significantly shifted, right? Gary Larock is 71. The game is different than it was just even, even since 2008. So I think that was the first sign that the front office shake up is coming. And I thought it was very interesting to see. What about you? - Yeah, yeah. You know, you hear things about certain people kind of within organizations and what they're doing, but with positions like this, it's tough for us to put, really put a finger on what's going on. But there had been a lot of talk that, you know, kind of like the Cardinals ownership in front office that with this position, it's a place where the Cardinals were once kind of leading the pack and now kind of fell towards the back. And some of the philosophical principles that were being used were behind the times. And we've heard some players, some former prospects and things like that kind of speak out on what's been going on. So just from the things that I've heard, it seems like this was a needed move that the Cardinals need to bring in some fresh eyes, a fresh approach, somebody that can kind of bring them to where the times are right now. I think it's going to be really big to see who the person is, who takes that spot. I know there's some rumors out there about who it might be. We have no idea. But this is very important that the Cardinals get this higher right. One could make the argument that this higher is just as important as hiring the next president of baseball operations. Maybe not to that extent, but this is a very important position that needs to be filled. They've got to find the right person that can do it because really just got to look around. I mean, we've talked many times about the players that go to other teams, especially outfielders and maybe pitchers they trade away who become superstars, but the Cardinals haven't developed their own guys. The guys like the new bars, the Donovan to some extent, the Gorman's who teams have chased after, teams have made big plays for apparently with trade targets. The Cardinals have not developed them and there's got to be a reason why, but we don't know what it is. And so something does need to change here. - Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting to see when that position gets higher fields, right? Is that a situation where... I assume it would be that if Joe Mosalock steps away from the decision-making rules after this year or they hire somebody, they hire the guy that's going to take over the job at the end of 2025 and have him in-house for this year, who makes that decision? You would think that the guy that, it's not Joe Mosalock, right? He's probably not making that decision. So I think it's going to be interesting to see, one, who does make the decision? And two, if it is somebody that they bring in from outside the organization. 'Cause if it's not, if it's somebody that just gets kind of promoted up, I don't know that I have a whole lot of confidence that anything else is going to change and that would also mean that maybe we're not going to see the transition that we think is necessary in the front office to get this thing on a different track. - Yeah, and yeah, they've got them. It's weird because we talk about the draft pick that they made with Weatherholt. The Cardinals have to get this right. They have to make a big splash. They can't mess us up. We're saying the same thing about this hire. Like it has to be done and, you know, this is the person who's actually going to help dictate who these where these prospects go. But yeah, this, a lot of what's going to happen with the minor leagues and the prospects and things like that will funnel through whoever this hire is going to be. And you look at the other teams, other organizations like the Dodgers, I hate to say it, but even the Cubs, the Yankees, the way they've handled their farm systems, they're drafting and things like that. They're kicking the crud out of the Cardinals right now. They're doing so much better with drafting and developing. I know people go back to Flores in that 2020 draft, which was great, but the Cardinals haven't had a lot of success since that point. You know, McGreevey has not quite been what the Cardinals were hoping for. Jerby has yet to really move up in the ranks and he's constantly hurts. Seems like tons of these guys are constantly on the aisle. Robey has not developed this year. Ten kids seems like he's injured a lot and things like that. Somebody's to come in and kind of clean this all up and get everybody on the same page and start charting a path forward for the organization. Because right now the Cardinals really are falling behind everybody else. - Yeah, I mean, you've got, you know, you have the stories like Quinn Matthews, who did, who has made quite a jump this year and has really, you know, put himself on the, on the preface of being a Major Leagueer. And even McGreevey has pitched well. In fact, his numbers after he had that one Major League start have been pretty impressive and kind of out of character for him, maybe he's figured out something. But for the most part, you know, when you're pointing that these two guys are, or these kind of situations, that's about it, right? And they're the exceptions that prove the rule and the fact that things need to be better. And even if it's not, you know, how they develop players, but just are, you know, like certain drills or certain things, but maybe, or certain ways they evaluate, maybe it's just, hey, we don't rush these guys as much. You know, I mean, I still feel like the fact that Mason Nguyen got to play most of last year at AAA is one of the reasons that he is so strong at the Major League level this year of where Jordan Walker has had, you know, had his issues. That's a simplistic thing. And it just, it may not be, but that, you know, it kind of feels that way. You know, I think there, the whole Monterley's could get a revamp on after they hire this player. So there's those persons. So I think it's going to be, yeah, those are the kind of things that you're right, in some degree, that, you know, the excitement of this cardinal offseason may be in the front office and in staffing issues like that, much more than who's going to be putting on the jersey because that kind of thing, maybe we already know. Yeah, and again, this is pretty depressing, but it is where the state of things are right now. We kind of have to evaluate what's going on right now, but also keep our eyes two years ahead, or maybe even further, you know, I find myself checking out daily what JJ Weatherholt did or what Chase Davis did. If Quinn Matthews is pitching, I want to watch that more than I want to watch the Big League team because I just don't have faith in the, the Big League team right now. You know, Greg Gamsinger wants to blast the fans for not showing up. It's tough for me to watch when I can watch it for free at this point. It's just, it's, especially today. Team gets down seven, nothing. Do you really want to watch that? But I feel like this is something we're going to have to sit through for a little while longer until some of these young guys can start coming up. But in order for these young guys to come up and save the team, which is putting a whole lot on their shoulders, you got to make sure that you're developing the right way. And right now, I don't know if people have a lot of faith in that. Yeah, McGreeby turned in a great, great outing his last time, but do we still have faith in him that he could be a future starter? I don't know about that. So yeah, we've got to see these young guys, they need to be developed in the proper way. And like you mentioned, it does feel like some guys have gotten rushed, like Jordan Walker, maybe Nolan Gorman, that they tried to fly them through the minors before they were ready, whereas you can point to some other players where it feels like they've been held down too long in a lot of ways, maybe like a Luke and Baker who hasn't gotten a chance. And so yeah, something really needs to change in how this is being handled and hopefully the Cardinals are starting to be on the right track. If the Cardinals are focused on 2026, does that make it more likely that Paul Goldsmith has returned next year? I mean, we've seen a resurgence in Paul Goldsmith over the last month that indicates that he's not completely done and he's wanting to come back for next year. In fact, he said something of the fact that he owes the Cardinals. So it may be that he can get him on a reasonably friendly deal. But still, that's money you're spending that you're not gonna be spending places that you should be. What do you think? What is the situation of Paul Goldsmith? - I think it's 100% right, what you just said that if this team, and they're not gonna say they're not contending next year, we will never hear them say that they are rebuilding or not trying to contend. But internally, if that's how they feel and we're not going to see much change over with the roster, absolutely, they bring him back. And honestly, I think that's the right move too. Now, someone could say, well, he really struggled this year. He can't seem to keep up and things like that. Yeah, I get all those arguments, but if this team truly is going to have a similar roster and a roster that we probably think isn't going to compete for the central or even a wild card, it does make sense to bring him back on a cheaper contract. I know he has to hit free agency first before they can do that, but there's really no reason not to bring him back if that's what's going on. Now, if this team plans to sell everybody off and just play all young guys or they're gonna make some crazy trades and they're bringing a superstar and you think they can make a run, well, sure, then that probably doesn't make sense to bring him back. But because of the state of things, I think it makes a whole lot of sense to bring him back. And I'm going to sound like the organization when I say this, but you get the leadership from him that we hear about all the time, that he's kind of a quiet leader, but he's the guy that guys go to. He does take young guys under his wing. You don't need eight of those guys on the team, but if Paul Goldschmidt is the number one leader on a team that's already lost Albert Pujols, Adam Wayne Wright, Yada Irmalina, it's probably a good idea if you can keep him at a minimal cost and have him around for some of the young guys, because it really does seem like he is leading in a proper way that's needed. So I have no problem with him coming back. I think it makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't mind seeing him finish his career as a cardinal. And I am encouraged by what we've seen over the last month or so. It shows that he does have something left. He's not just getting lucky. It's not flooky or anything like that. Like the guy can still catch up to a 96 mile per hour fastball. It just seems like something has been off mechanically, most of the season or possibly an injury that we don't know about or something like that. But I think he can still play. And so that makes the decision a whole lot easier. Now you can't pay him $28 million, but if he's gonna come back on like a, you know, a Wainwright deal, like a $10 or an $11 million deal, I think it makes all the sense of the world. Am I crazy? Do I sound like a Wright's holder on that? - No, I don't think so. I don't, I think people might be a little bit frustrated because they will see it as the same old, same old, like, you know, but I think I've also seen enough people that have, well, one, would like to see Goldie in as a cardinal two have recognized his turn about over the last month and honestly, you know, there have been, if you look at some of the underlying stuff that we've looked at over the last, you know, over the last three years, I think some of the underlying metrics are not all that different from his MVP year to last year to this year. I mean, there's obviously some drop off, but I don't think that it's as much as the numbers are showing us. You know, maybe there should be something still there. And I do think that hopefully you go into this, if you re-sign him with the knowledge on both sides that this may not be an everyday thing, right? I mean, that was part of the problem this year is that no matter how much he struggled, he was out there every day. He's gonna probably end up playing probably, what, 150 games this year or so. I think there should be some indication that, you know, maybe we're gonna mix in somebody else at first. And maybe, you know, especially if things aren't going on. Almost like, almost like with what Albert, the Albert Pujols situation was, right? When he came in in 2022, it was this idea that he's gonna, you know, play against lefties here and there. And then of course, when Albert became reinvigorated and became Albert Pujols again, you know, he played every day down the stretch and it was effective. But I just wonder if there's not something like that. So I'm sort of like, okay, we may, we're gonna have you here, but, you know, there may be a part-time role as well as, you know, you kind of have to prove it a little bit going into this year, more so than, you know, well, somebody on a big crop track that's gonna play every day. - Yeah, I completely agree. I know there's been some talk about moving burlessness over there and so maybe, I don't know if it's quite a time shared, time split. But listen, you know, I think people sometimes assume that you can just move an outfielder to first base and it's gonna be a natural fit. And that's not always the case. I know Matt Holliday has talked about that a little bit and how it just, it's not a natural move necessarily. Lance Berkman even said that he preferred playing outfield because first base was so rough on his back for a lot of the time. And so the Cardinals don't have that air apparent in the organization right now. I don't think it's Luke and Baker. He's already 27 years old. We've seen some holes in his game. He doesn't seem like an everyday guy. Maybe it eventually is Burleson. Maybe it's Jordan Walker at some point, but those guys, they don't have that old, that first base only guy just knocking on the door, like somebody like a Kurtz who just got drafted. You know, like an Anthony Rizzo type or something like that. That guy's not the Cardinals organization. If they had somebody at AAA who was hitting 320 and hit 30 home runs this year, who's a first base only type guy, yeah, that makes a little more sense, but that's just not the case. So because of that, I think that gives even more reason to possibly bring him back. And yeah, and maybe it's not an everyday thing. Maybe he plays 40% of the games at first base. Maybe he DH is a little bit more something like that. But I think there is a role for him to have going forward. And yeah, his numbers haven't been great this year, but his OPS is actually above our notos at this point because of the way he's climbed in the last several weeks. So I'm okay with it, especially if this team is gonna look much the same next year. - Yeah, I mean, I've heard that first base is hard. It's incredibly hard. I think that's what Ron Washington said. So, you know, it is difficult to say, we've seen that, right? We saw Jose Martinez try to play first base and it wasn't pretty. - Yeah, Carpenter. Yeah. - Yeah, we've had some situations. And yeah, I mean, maybe there is a guy. Maybe it's a Gorman or maybe it's, you know, a Walker or somebody that they need to move there, but it's gonna take some work to do it. And we've seen how hard it's been for a Gjorn Walker to turn into an outfielder. So, you know, would he be able to make the move to first base maybe very well, maybe? But I also feel pretty bad about the guy having to bounce around this many positions. This is early in his career, right? I mean, Albert did it, but Albert's Albert knew before about getting his bat in the lab and anything else. So yeah, I think it's, I think there's a lot to be said for bringing back Paul Goldsman on the right deal. And again, I don't want to see them go into this off season saying we can't spend money because we're gonna have a lower payroll or because of, you know, attendance and all this kind of stuff. And you can argue whether that's a good idea or not. But if they do say that, I don't necessarily want them then to turn around and spend, you know, what might be 50 or 60% of their available money on Paul Goldsman, I don't think. That's my only hesitation, right? I mean, if they could go out and get some sort of starter that would push, you know, Steven Masser, or Miles Michaels into the bullpen, if nothing else, you know, get them a number two or number three starter with whatever money they want to do, then I think you have to let, you know, like Paul Goldsman go find another spot to play. But without that being a situation, without this being, you know, Rob and Peter to play Paul, I think it makes a lot of sense to bring Goldsman back. - Yeah, I can't see him getting paid a ton, maybe a 10 or $11 million deal. I'd be surprised if he gets more than 15. And even 15 seems a little steep for what the Cardinals should do. Now, how would they do it? Probably for him. But yeah, I agree. If you're talking number two, number three starter money, you absolutely not. You don't do that. But I have a feeling this is gonna be more like glorified bench money, kind of in between bench and starter money if he really wants to stay. And he seems like the guy that it's not all about money, he's not gonna go try to break the bank. He just may take a reasonable deal to return and probably get something that's probably fitting for his age and playing time if I had to guess. - I would hope so. And like I said, I would be glad to see that. And you're right, the leadership is important. I mean, we saw that we don't. It's better, I think, if they've got some leadership than trying to go out and force it with a Matt Carpenter and a Brendan Crawford. Even though that seems to have worked, right? I mean Crawford seems to have been exactly what they wanted off the field. And Matt Carpenter has been that voice of reason. And you've heard the young guys talk about it and that part has worked. I just don't know how valuable it was to have two of your bench spots taken up with those kind of guys while they're giving out sage advice. But if you can get a Paul Goseman who can do that and produce on the field, and we've seen Nolan R and Otto step up into that role, right, with the young guys. We've seen him kind of being a little bit more of a mentor. So if you can get some of that leadership out of guys that are still being somewhat productive at least, then that's much better than having to import it in and force the situation. And I don't know what you get on the pitching side, right? I mean, I don't know if Sonny Gray's that kind of guy. I know Miles Michaels wants to be, but it's got to be very difficult when you've got a five and a half ERA to be that kind of leader. So, I don't know what it looks like over there, but I think adding Goseman and Otto again, if you're not keen in on them being your main guys for the offense that you're willing to let them supplement what you do have, then I think that can be a good thing. - Yeah, and I think that we'll see some of the younger guys take up those bench roles that we saw earlier this year, because you look at the guys who are in AAA right now or the guys who've been brought up, the Cardinals once again are actually going to have to make some tough decisions about roster issues. They're going to have potentially two center fielders maybe going into next year. You've got to figure out what you're going to do with Nolan Gorman. Even though Tyler O'Neill is gone and even though Tommy Edmond's gone, they're still going to have some log jams here because you think that Jordan Walker is going to be up next year. So they're going to have to make some decisions about this, but I think it allows them to utilize the bench a little bit more and hopefully not have to stock it with older veterans and instead letting some of the younger players play. Because there have been some games that we've seen in recent days where they've let the young guys play, I think it was last Sunday, let the young guys play and they went out there and played incredible games. And so, you know what? If you're not going to put it together a team that's incredibly competitive, then maybe let the young guys play, let the young guys take up the bench and then you can have a couple of those older veterans who are still playing every day. But at least don't just stock the bench with guys who are 37, 38 years old. Let it go to some people who actually deserve that spot. - Okay, to wrap it up, I just pulled this article up here on the athletic and it has best and worst stats for each team and they're not necessarily here, traditional ones, at least not for the Cardinals. I'm going to give you what the best stat is and I want you to tell me the percentage that they have. Okay, on this one. So the best stat that they have is the tagging up success rate, a tagging up on a ball to the outfield. What is their success rate on taking the next race? - For the Cardinals? - Yep. - It's interesting 'cause I've read analytics books about how you should always try to take the extra base. I'm going to go high 'cause usually your chances of getting there pretty good. I'm going to say like 78%. - 100% this year. - Wow. - They have tagged up 92 times third time, third most tag ups in the majors and have been successful every time taking the extra base. So that is interesting. That could be a good thing or bad thing. It could mean that they're doing great at base running or it could mean they're not being aggressive enough. - That's awesome. - 'Cause they haven't been thrown out. - Mason Wien has 14 of these. MLB's leaders are surprisingly enough, Shohei Otani and Jared Durin, they have 19. So you know, Mason Wien's not too far off of that. And so yeah, I think that was interesting. Okay, they have a worst and they have an honorable mention, which is also a worst. The worst stat that they have back-to-back homers, how many times have they gone back-to-back this year? - Oh, it feels like Sonny Gray's done that at least six times. - No, no, I mean, this is the offense. - Oh, that's a big step. - No, no, no, the offense. I don't want to even think about the hitting stat. But no. - 'Cause they might lead that one too. Oh, back-to-back once zero. - Zero. - Zero, okay, I made up one. I guess I thought about last year. - Yep, nope, as they noted, the Diamondbacks, Yankees, Braves, and Dodgers have hit back-to-back homers at least 10 times. Diamondbacks have done it twice in the same inning. Cardinals have not done it at all. - Didn't they hit three in a row last year in one game? And this year they can't even do back-to-back? - Yeah, so of course, you know, given the fact that we haven't had just the most powerful offense, maybe that's part of it as well. The honorable mention is also tagging up on the other side of things. The Cardinals have, the outfielders have been tagged up on 84 times, most in the majors by a decent margin, and they've only thrown out two of those runners. - And one of those runners plays for Tampa right now. - So one of those outfielders is, so yes, the outfield is needing some work defensively, at least in this regard. - So what you're saying is the Cardinals could run all day on the Cardinals. Oh my goodness, you put those two together? Yeah, it would be bad. I mean, if you, yeah, put Mason went on second, he'd probably tag up and score on if Jordan Walker's out there or something. Fascinating, anyway, that was it. I just pulled that up, that was kind of an interesting way to end what has turned into a longer episode, but there's a lot of issues with this Cardinals team, and there's going to be a lot of issues. And we're gonna be here talking about them forever, it feels like, but at least through the rest of the season and into the off season. So thanks for joining us tonight, and for David, I'm Daniel, good night. - He got him, back him out. Look at the scene on the field, and the car was a first one. Now it isn't until there's all over him. A new world elected of 17 strikeouts in one game.