Test Match Special

England v Sri Lanka: England collapse as Moeen calls it a day

Jonathan Agnew is alongside Alastair Cook, Michael Vaughan and former Sri Lanka allrounder Russel Arnold for reaction as Sri Lanka bowl England out in 34 overs and begin their chase well in their quest to win the last test of this series. They discuss England’s attitude when batting in the second innings, Jamie Smith’s innings which stopped Sri Lanka from winning the game already, and what could have led to England’s below-par performance this test.

England Assistant Coach Paul Collingwood gives his reaction of the day’s play.

Plus, Moeen Ali speaks to Jonathan after he announced his retirement from international cricket.

Duration:: 43m
Broadcast on:: 08 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Jonathan Agnew. Welcome to Test Match Special Podcasts and the oval where a chaotic day had 16 wiggets for and Sri Lanka need only 125 to win. I'm going to go to Bashir way down the legs side as he caught behind. I think he is. Somehow he's got something on that. It's way down the legs side, trying to swat it away. It's through Madushka and England have been bowled out for 156. And it's a surprise in the air beautifully up to the ground from top to four. And it brings up his 50 of just 42 balls in the second half century of the match. To come, we'll hear from the England assistant coach Paul Collingwood. And we'll have analysis of the day's play from Alistair Cook, Michael Vaughn and the former Sri Lanka football rounder Russell Arnold. And I speak to Moin Ali after he announced his retirement from international cricket. You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. 16 wickets fell today, 16 wickets. With Sri Lanka closing, the third day on 94 for one, they only need 125 more runs to pull off. This victory crew in Ratna is the man out for eight, but there's Nizanka who led the way with 53, Mendes is 30, they've got a 50 partnership together in about seven overs. And they have rattled along. So where do we start? Well, Sri Lanka were bowled out for 263, that was five for 52. So England with a lead of 62, but they were, well, it's one stage, 82 for seven. Some lovely swing bow row from Vishwa Fernando, route was out there with the 12, broke Edward W for three. It was only a runnable half century from Smith that really gave that score. Some respectability put off 58 with Ollie Stone, who managed to score 10. But the rest of the batting really is quite disappointing. Those are remarkable thrash from Dan Lawrence at the start, 35 with 35 balls. He was going down fighting, but a very disappointing performance, 156 all out. Sri Lanka, 219 to win. As I mentioned, well, they've got 94 on the board already still two days to go. So it looks like we're going to be destined for another four day test match, which is a remarkable, really, out of the six test matches we've had so far. So we've got Alistair Cook, we've got Michael Vaughn, well, we're going back to the second day. Michael and England really, I mean, I think they've been off the board all game, to be honest, almost the game, but they should have scored more runs in that first. Yeah, I thought they were good on day one when they lost the toss. I thought they came out and played with a huge amount of skill. Whatever happened from the start of day two, they started, OK? So they got to 261 for three. And then Harry Brooke was at Tatic that Sri Lanka turned to to Harry Brooke, where they went into channel and they frustrated him. You could see he was taking his guard outside of Stump and hit one straight to extra cover. From then on, England have been poor. They really have been poor and full credit to Sri Lanka because they are fighters. I think this Sri Lankan team, they're not the strength in quality that we've seen in the past, but they certainly got that spirit and they've made it difficult this morning and were a bit better with the ball. You could see that something may have been said yesterday because they just had at a moment or two where they weren't quite on it. They get back with the ball in hand and then I have no clue what they were thinking when they went out to bat. No clue. I guess Dan Lawrence, you'd feel it's his last chance to loon. And he's probably been told, go on, go on, have a swing, but fundamentally, you are the person that makes a decision on how you're going to play. And maybe he thought, you know, the way I can kind of just make a name for myself is to come out and crash it to all parts, but it was just too expansive. But then Ben Ducky, who is the senior pro, to get out caught in me, don't. You know, he gets out in the first and he's playing the rap. I have no problem with that. He's on 8-0, but in the second, he's when the game's hot. And Sri Lanka kind of got back into the contest and to play that stroke, England three down, quickly, and then Skil. Sri Lanka used some Skil, the left armour ball, a beautiful spell to get rid of Joe Root and Harry Brooke, and then England under pressure. And if it wasn't for an incredible innings, again, from Jamie Smith, if it wasn't for that innings, well, I think this game would have been done and dusted already. The Lawrence one was interesting, Kookie, wasn't it, because... Would you be told to go out and have a swing? I mean, it looked like he had, but it was a pretty wild innings. Well, not often our players told how to play. Even in this year, I don't think someone would have said, "You choose how you go." The frustrating thing for me about that, Dan Lawrence is a better player than that, because actually, yes, he scored 35 or 36 balls wherever he got. But he slogged it today. He missed balls, trying to hit them so hard, and it wasn't control batting. If he had played more aggressively than he had done, it was actually during the other five innings as an opener. He's actually tried to get through the new ball and try to grind his way through, which is a different, I suppose, to what he's known. Actually, the best innings I've seen Dan Lawrence play have been those kind of innings, actually. You know, playing the situation. That tough run, he was known for the essence of scoring. Important hundreds. So I actually thought he would adapt his game, OK, to opening. But those two 30s, and the first things, when you get in as an opener, you've got to make it count, because there are other days where you don't get it. I'm not sure that thrashing 75 or 80 would have, batting like that would have proved anything. I don't think it would either. I think you're looking for quality, and that wasn't an innings of quality. It was just flashing the balls. It was slogging, unfortunately. He's a far better player than that, and he plays a situation better than that. So I feel frustrated for him just because I'm like a friend of it. Yeah, that's a fact. I just go back to it. I see if I've put a banana ball in my ball, he's down, standing white to it for six. And then he stayed in his crease, and because of that movement, you're a baller. The baller's running drops, it's slightly short, and he punched it through it. Oh, there you go. And he gets a 35 to just play now. You've actually got the baller's thinking, when are you coming? When are you going to down, he knows the ball, you'll be running and going, "Oh, is he going to down this ball?" If he did a stay in his crease, he'd have got probably two or three balls every over on the back foot to punch, or potentially play the ball shot too. So he'd done all the dangerous work to get to 35. It was a reckless innings. The difference was when someone said, "Oh, look, we're applauding the one who hits a six." But actually, the one who did hit for six, still a totally risky shot, but he did it with some control. There was four of our five other occasions, and the one he got out to, there was zero control. Right, let's get Russell's view on this. Because you've been on the back foot for the last couple of test matches, Russell. The floor is yours. What do you reckon? One hundred and twenty-five more. Need it to be a famous win? I would think so. I think they've got it under control now, one twenty-five, all the pressure on England. And they don't seem to be reacting well. When you look at that bowling effort, there were lots of loose balls, fired everywhere. The ball did not swing like it did for the Sri Lankan bowlers. No, it didn't. So, they've got to England where they want to now. Just make sure that you put your heads down tomorrow and make sure the job's done. But all they did today was with the ball, especially the basics. They did what they did at Lords, so well on that flat track. This is what they needed to do on the first day here, rather than search for it. And the rewards came their way. They were really, really good. The moment they felt that England are going to come and make those mistakes, take the risks as the boys are saying, they're just stuck to it. You could feel the energy, you could feel the buzz around them, and they've now clawed their way back in. Just on Dan Lauren's sitting here. I was talking to someone next door. Moment of the ball does something or beats the bat. He reacts the very next ball. He's looking to slog it, go across. I just mentioned to someone, watch the next ball. He was across the stand and the ball went just over middle. I guess I remember, yes. So, it's way too easy for the opposition to read how he's going to react. Yeah, yeah. You're really pleased with the way they come out and attack that target. There's lots of time available. In case you've been all the new boys who do a bit, let's be steady. Actually, the way Nesankas come out there, he's blown a huge hole in that already. But risk-free. Just good shots, it's been positive, they've run well, so has Cusal Mendes. And just getting a few runs, pushed England back and made themselves feeling better and more in control. Guess he's scoring quicker than run a ball. He got his half-century in the first innings of 40 balls. Here may be a ball or two more, but for me, it's just been good shots. Don Andes de Silva, before the tour, said, "Probably Sri Lanka's best batter." And he looks solid, and he's applying himself. Sure is, it looks so. All those LBWs as well, I mean, it just, again, illustrates the full length, the bowl, the swing that Fernando had. That was a lovely exhibition of left-arm swing bowling. Yeah, I mean, again, it's just a lesson for England that, you know, when you're controlling the game and they were, they'd arrive on day two, they're controlling the test match. And inside a couple of days, they've just allowed Sri Lanka back into the game. And also, they've allowed them to showcase their skill levels. And that's what they did this afternoon. I thought some of the bowling was fantastic. You could see clearly Vishwa Fernando, he was getting the ball a hoop around. And he had brilliant field set. There was no real gaps for the batter, particularly the right-handers, to get off strike. And he was going across, across, and he was getting the in-swinger in. So the right-handers passed beautifully. And to get, you know, you could remember Harry Brooke and Joe Ritter, his teammates this year, he played for Yorkshire. And to get those two with some brilliant bowling, they thoroughly deserve Sri Lanka because of the standard of cricket they've played in the last two days. They found spirit yesterday morning in, I think, the way that England played. And England, I think Cookie said last night, they were complacent yesterday. They just came and thought, you know what, we've got 220 odd. This game's pretty much done and does it. Oh, we've got 325. That's around par, probably above par. We're going to win the test match. Well, they arrive on day four with 125 to defend with a 20-year-old who's pulled pretty well this morning, but he's going to be a bit stiffer. We, you know, didn't have Gus Atkinson this morning because he's got a dodgy quad. Chris Wokes isn't looking quite at his best this week. And then, obviously, Joey Beshear, the Ospina and Ollie Stern. So something remarkable will have to happen in the morning. I think the ball will have to swing around a huge amount for England to win this test match. Root's dismissal is interesting, isn't it? A low full banger that hit him on the boot. Oh, for a man who's been in such, in such good nick. Yeah, it just shows the importance of how batting can be because you just make one mistake and you're done. And that's what the Schlenken Bowlers, for them just surviving Schlenker as a Seema, you have to have something, something slightly different. And actually, all these guys, I don't think we saw the best of them today. Haven't seen the best of them in this series because they all just have something. And when it did swing and the conditions were perfect for them, in the first innings, they didn't get it right, this innings, they did get it right. And again, test cricket isn't easy. And I think the lesson in England, I thought we thought, if you go back to some of the articles written and spoken about, this is like Bazball Mark II, the improved evolution of it. They lost the value of the run in this game, how important actually runs up. And another example of it was staying on for those 70 runs of Ospina. Yeah. Wishful Fernando was the difference. That's what Schlenker missed right throughout. The ball never swung for him in the first test. That's why they left him out because he looked really flat. And finally, he got it right today. I think he was told, you bolt until you fall because he had a hamstring in niggle. And get out there, just do it if you break, that's it. And somehow or rather, there was a bit of late swing, which really surprised, even Joe Root probably didn't expect it, because he had not seen this guy doing that. And the moment that happens, the rest of the bowlers are also feeling a lot more comfortable, because as a unit, they look a little bit better. But they have all run in hard, isn't they? In the course of this series, it's been hard work for them, but the quick bowlers have given it everything. Yeah, they have been impressive, but at certain times, if the batter can breathe with another bowler from the other end, then the pressure's off you. But here, Laira Kumar, I see the Fernando running, and then here comes Wish for Fernando, you're made to work a little bit harder. It's been a bad day. How do we know? Because the assistant coach has been pulled out to speak to Henry Rand, Paul Collingwood. Paul, what are your reflections at the end of that day? Well, it certainly hasn't been our best day of the summer. I think throughout the summer, we've managed to find ways to get out of some tricky situations, and we're going to have to find a way tomorrow. We've got an opportunity in the week. It's still doing enough to win the game from here, but obviously going to have to be a little bit better tomorrow to be able to do that. Standards feel like they haven't been what England would expect. Certainly, that's been the view from some of those watching on. Would you agree with that? I think Sri Lanka, given full credit that they've actually put us under a lot of pressure, and we're kind of the mantra of our side is to try to put the opposition under pressure and look ways to put them under pressure at all times. In test cricket, it doesn't always work out for you. Today's been a day where the opposition, Sri Lanka, they've got a lot of movements and very accurate with the ball, and managed to take the wickets. With the bats, they've come out there and they've played very well. Sometimes it's not going to work. We do have this mantra and this is how we want to play. Sometimes it doesn't work, that's okay, but as long as we keep that same belief in philosophy, then hopefully we find ways to put opposition teams under pressure. Because it's felt in this game that it's been much more the free-spirited batting, certainly that we've seen in previous years under Brendan than perhaps earlier this summer, has there been a change in mindset and mentality in this match? I think a lot of that comes down to the actual conditions. I think when the ball is moving around a fair bit, then certainly the method would be to try to be ultra-aggressive, as we watched Ben Duncan in the first scenes, for example, of playing a style that takes the ballers off their length, and the danger length on there is the top of off. That's where ballers are getting a lot of the movement from. I think that's a fine example of showing your skill and how to try to put ballers under pressure and take them off that length, for them to resort to ball and bounces out of them on a wicket, that was seaming around a lot, full credit to Dougie. We tried it again today, and as I said, sometimes it doesn't work, and with full credit to Sri Lanka. A word on Dan Lawrence has been a tough series, and he would have wanted more runs of course. Today, it almost looks like he was going out thinking this is last chance to lose, I'm just going to try and hit my way out of this lack of form. Well, you've got to give him a lot of credit for the bravery to actually go out there and back himself, and he's not the only player who's been in those kind of situations in the past, and you want to go out and perform on your own terms. And he's naturally a very aggressive player, and also give him full credit to come in and go at the top of the order. It's not a position that he's done that often, but he certainly wanted to take that opportunity. He never shirked away from it, and today I thought it was great signs that he did actually go out there and try to be aggressive and take the game away from Sri Lanka. So those that have suggested complacency for being under this game, what would you say? I think it's always easy to resort to that kind of language, and when you haven't had a good day, these guys are desperate to show their talents every single day, there's a lot of enjoyment, there's a lot of fun in that dressing room, and the desire has been there as much as it has right away throughout this summer. There's been no change in thinking it's the end of the season or anything like that. The full-on desire has been there, it hasn't been one of our better days in the summer, but that's okay. We can come back tomorrow and we've still got an opportunity. Got Parkinson's fitness, how fit is he going to beat a bowl and play an active part in Toronto extract those wickets? Yeah, he's got a thigh niggle, and obviously he's done well to get out there, and take the new bowl today, so hopefully we can be a little bit better tomorrow in terms of getting the ball in those areas and causing mayhem. And basically tomorrow the message is from you as coaches? The message is always the same from us coaches, we'd pretty much stake consistent, but it'll make sure that we have that belief that we can actually go out there, there's plenty of movement in that pitch still, and you never know what can happen in cricket, these guys have done some special things in the past, and we can do some special things tomorrow also. That's Paul Collins, who's always tough being assistant coach. I mean, defend a poor day, creates some mayhem, he says, well, I mean, they can need something on that sort of level, like they've done 25 needed with nine wickets. Yeah, it may sound going to be easier, I think Shrancla, like they've got the bit between the teeth, I mean, for Shrancla to lose nine wickets and not score 125, or they're going to have to have a huge collapse. I mean, it's just one partnership, really, but it can happen. I mean, England can get in a row, I think someone like Chris Wokes can bowl any team out with the Duke ball at any stage, and we saw that last year with Australia, the ball starts swinging around, he can easily get three or four quick wickets inside the first 40 minutes, and then it's game on, but England haven't quite been at it, they haven't been quite at it this test match. They were on day one, I thought they'd well as we've said before, but yesterday's batting display to get bold out for 325, and then to be so aggressive with the field settings, and then to come out and back and play some of the strokes that they did today, almost in a way to think that they never probably thought that someone like Vishwa for the lander could bowl a couple of jaffas, and those two balls to get rid of the two Yorkies, that's called bowling. I said it last night on the podcast, as did yourself Agazan and Cook, it's just a warning sign for this thing inside, that just don't think, test cricket is hard, it's really difficult to win game, and when you get in a position of strength, which they were on the second morning, and you're 260 over three, make it count, because even though Sri Lanka haven't got the best team in the world, they're still a fighting team, and they'll find a wave, you allow them back into a contest, and that's exactly what England have done. Right Michael, thank you very much indeed, we'll catch up with you tomorrow, it's the last burst of stats from Andy before we got just on the stats from today, we've seen a couple of fairly extraordinary things, Jamie Smith in that phenomenal ending, he's had 15 off 31 balls, and he spooned one over mid off for two, from which point he then scored 50 off the next 17 balls he faced before he was dismissed, and looking through the stats on Andrew Sampson's database, that's the I make that the fourth fastest 50 run sequence by a batsman in test history, and the fastest by an England player, 50 runs from 17 balls, I think there's been times and it's taken 400 balls for a player to score 50. Pathamna Sankar has been brilliant in both innings, 40 ball half-century in the first innings, which was Sri Lanka's fastest against England, 42 balls in the second innings, the joint second fastest for Sri Lanka against England, and he's become the first player ever in a test match in England to score half-centuries at quicker than a runner ball in both innings, and only the 11th instance of that happening anywhere, Harry Brooke did it in Mount Manganoe, Zach Crawley and Raul Pindy recently, but only the 11th of all time in the first ever in England, England's innings 34 over is the second quickest that Sri Lanka of bold England out in test cricket off of the 30.50, as it took them in Gaul in December 2007, it's the fastest that England have ever been bold out at the oval, and they've been playing test cricket here since 1880, beating the records at two years ago against South Africa, which in turn beat the record from the first ever test, the second test against Australia in 1882, and England, despite winning the series, have not had a hundred stand in the entire series, and in the third time since 1964, they've played the first three tests of a series without having at least one-century partnership, and yeah, it's been a short summer of test cricket, the average length of match this summer, unless Sri Lanka crawl along one and over for the rest of the game, is going to be the shortest average length of match in a test summer in England since the 1950s. Stay with us very shortly. We'll hear from Owen Alley after his retirement from International Cricket. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. This season, Instacart has your back to school. As in, they've got your back to school lunch favorites like snack packs and fresh fruit, and they've got your back to school supplies like backpacks, binders, and pencils, and they've got your back when your kid casually tells you they have a huge school project to do tomorrow. Let's face it, we were all that kid. So first, call your parents to say I'm sorry, and then download the Instacart app to get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes all school year long. Get a zero-dollar delivery fee with your first three orders while supplies last, minimum $10 in order, additional term supply. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big row as man, then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laughing at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get a $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com/results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. Linkedin, the place to be, to be. It becomes per deep over the wicked bulls. Short. Not sure why that's it. Flicked away fine and mowing an alley. At nearly 27 in the evening, having fasted all day, reached his first 10th century, and this is a remarkable, resilient performance. He still has the bigger job to do arguably in saving this match for England, but what a contribution he's made. His first test, 100. No in bowls. Go to his four, go to short legs. Out. Out. Out. Out. Got that short leg. Cook celebrates an England in a huddle, and that's the wicked they were absolutely desperate for. Well, bold mowing. Well, bold. Got it. He wondered, keep going, keep going. In, mowing down the track. Over the top, he's got it. It's six. Mowing Ali does it with a six. He raised his helmet and is back to the pavilion. A wonderful way to bring up a splendid 100, a hug from James Anderson. It was on. As soon as the ball was flighted, Mowing Ali made up his mind. He was going to come down the track and go over the top. Mowing goals. Oh, that's food by the end of the off-side in court. Warner's out, and he looks back very suspiciously at the pitch. But from an England perspective, and all the supporters here and listening and watching, thank goodness they finally broken through. Joe Root taking the catch. It just seemed to stop a bit on Warner, who was looking to play that back foot spoke that he liked so much through point. 94, not out from Mowing Ali. Copy his 100, and it's going all the way for six. It is his 100. Amazing striking from Mowing Ali. He removes his helmet, points it back towards the dressing room, and gets a big bear hug from Liam Plunkett. It's been an astonishing 25 minutes or so from Mowing Ali. Mowing's it again, and Smith flicks in the air straight to Mowing in his car. What has Steven Smith done there? It's 200 test wickets for Mowing Ali, and it's a big one of Steven Smith, and England are right back in this. He's just flicked across his front pad and picked out the filter amid wicket. In comes a giddy to Mowing Ali, smash this. It's gone high, and it's gone low enough for six. Over mid-wicket, Mowing Ali goes to 52 of 16 deliveries, a scintillating innings. They've got the pad at Peel for the play before, they really want this, and the umpas saying no, and they're all making the review sign. All of them are making the review sign there. We're watching. We're doing. Mowing has taken a hat trick, and he's won the match for England. What a finish. What a finish. And they're jumping around and saying, "Well done." Wow. Mowing Ali, lovely to see you. You've hung up your international boots. Yeah, I mean, it was always going to happen, I guess. I think it's a great time to do it. We've obviously picked a T20 side going with the useful side. So, yeah, I just felt like it was the right time to do it. Yeah, did you need to do it? Did you have felt that you had to feel more relaxed? I mean, done it. No, I mean, I feel in terms of playing, I'd still be fine, etc. It's just that I felt like I'm not going to get picked now, and I can just move away from this international cricket and T20s, obviously. It's the only format I was playing at the time, and it's just a good time to finish. I think it's great that we've got some of the good young players coming through and hopefully watch them. I've played with a lot of them as well, so it just felt like, "Okay, now's the time." Yeah, had you thought about it for a while, or did you just kind of... Yeah, I was humming an hour, and I think it depended if I got picked with the series in Australia, I guess Australia, but deep down, I've always been quite realistic about things, and I felt like the direction the team needs to go is youthful, and just for the future, obviously, there's a World Cup coming up in two years' time, and Champions Trophy around the corner of Australia, and I just thought, "Okay, it's better to just almost get away from that now, and just go and play some franchise cricket, etc." Yeah, and that's the plan. Is it now? You've got it very clear. Yeah, I mean, I love playing cricket. I love playing T20 cricket in particular, and I'm 37, and realistically, I'm not going to play too much longer. Hey, a bit of T20, you're going to be knocking around for a few years. Well, you never know. I mean, you kind of take it as it comes, but you're right. I think with T20 cricket now, you can play and prolong your career longer, and stuff, so yeah, I'm looking forward to that now. But it wasn't all about T20. Gosh, I love watching it better in Test matches. No, no, Test was by far the best. Yeah, 100%. It's the best format. It's something that, as a young player, I always felt like it was the most important format. It was the proper format, as we say. And the one day's initially was all fun and great. The white ball stuff was more fun. It was actually time to relax, almost wind down from the test. After a test series, when you had the white ball, it was time to just relax a little bit, but then as I got older and I played Leicester's cricket, obviously, the white ball then took over for me, but still Test matches. Test cricket is the best game. Yeah, there'll be people who'll be cheering for the rooftops to hear you say that. It feels like sort of hanging to cling on to Test cricket a bit, but to hear you say that, as someone who's played so much white ball and sees this future ahead of white ball to talk about Test cricket so affectionately and giving it such an important feel. I think a lot of people feel very happy about that. I always felt that if you play Test cricket or you play a Red ball cricket, your basics generally work quite good on a solid, especially if you played a long duration or some time. And when you have those basics instead, then white ball actually becomes a little bit easier in terms of you know what to fall back on, etc. When you're probably not playing well or whatever, it's harder to go the other way. If you just play white ball and you want to become a Test player, it's very difficult to do that because technique and all that kind of stuff. Red ball really tests your technique. It's probably the only format that tests your technique and your mental strength etc. And especially Test cricket, it was always difficult. It was never easy. Test runs are never easy against anybody in any sort of condition. So yeah, it's definitely the best format. Good. Well, I'm proud to hear that. Five centuries on Test cricket. Did any stand out? So I mean that terrific innings against Sri Lanka at heading. Unfortunately, in a losing cause. I think that for me was my best one because I felt like at that time I was playing well and I just came to the side. It was my second game and that's probably the only time, no, there was a couple of times, but that was where I felt like I should pop a batter. Proper innings. Yeah, I was buying number six at that time as well. So yeah, it is something that's quite, it's probably the one thing that I'm really proud of the Test 100s because Test 100s are not easy. I got two in India which is a challenge. I know I've not scored the Test 100s like a lot of the obviously top players do, but I think five, I think my first 30 games or something. That's what I got my first five, my only five tests and 100s and yeah, I'm pretty proud about that. Yeah, and the happiest memories of being, I don't know, on the road. You spend a long time away, don't you? I mean, what would you look back on on your test career to start with with a particular satisfaction? I think just that I did the grind of Test cricket of boring and being away from home for ages. Very difficult. Very difficult, yeah. Especially when, like, when I first got picked, my son was just born and it was a very busy schedule for the next three years and I was playing all formats and I didn't hardly spend much time with him and I missed a lot of his first three years. Could you make it up now? Have you made it up? Put some extra rounds in. Yeah, yeah, I've thrown a lot of balls. Yeah, give it. Now I've spent a lot more time with him now and my daughter then was born five years later and I managed to not do the, what I did with my my son. I'm just being away from family and parents getting older and you kind of, you see every time and you don't spend much time because there's somebody who's busy and then went to a really busy resort. So yeah, it's been, I think the grind of Test cricket has, it's been great to be part of. It's been difficult. You have up and downs in your career and especially someone like me was quite inconsistent as a player. There was a lot of downs but also I really enjoyed it. I mean, I managed to work out how to deal with it eventually and yeah, it was really enjoyable. I think just to play for England in any format was the greatest feeling any cricketer can I be of. Yeah, and that dressing room atmosphere as well, which you were central, weren't you? I mean, I'm lucky enough to go to one of those England evenings where that you had organized. I mean, there's quite a sense of humour lurking in there, isn't there? And a spelling test that you were giving to me for today. Yeah, those Christmas nights are great fun. It is great fun. I had an amazing, I think that's the thing I'll probably miss the most of after walking out playing for England. I think it's just being around in the change room with the guys and building those relationships and the friends I made etcetera were outstanding and I loved, honestly, loved every minute of playing for England on and after field. It's absolute privilege and honour and yeah, those memories, they were the best days of my life, isn't it? Oh, that's nice. Do you feel that you're a role model? You're something that you often sort of talk quietly about, but it's a big thing to put on somebody's shoulders, but have you felt that sort of role in your life? I think a little bit. I think as time went on, it got more and more in terms of people recognizing on the roads and looking up to you and you see the delight in people's faces and when the kids see you and how much they look up to you and yeah, I mean, I just played to be honest with you. I just played cricket. I tried to be the best version of myself as a Christian, as a person and I think a lot of people took inspiration from that. So yeah, it's one of those things where I didn't think too much about, I just did what I do and played cricket trying to be nice and I said, yeah, I mean, you went up and down the order, you've come back when you perhaps want to at times and Anastor Cook describes you as the most selfless cricket he said we did and that's a nice thing to say about, a real team man actually. Yeah, I mean, I think for me, like if I was given advice to anybody or any sort of player as an all-rounder in particular, I would say whatever the team needs from you is the most important thing and you try and fulfill that no matter what. Even though you're probably not happy with it or it goes against a bit like what Darren Lawrence is doing here with the team needs to open and he's opening and it's probably not a natural tune, but it's an opportunity for me. I always saw it as a way to get into inside whether it was batting 7, 8, 9, 10, whatever it was to being the only spinner the third spinner. It didn't really matter as long as I'm playing and I'm there and enjoying my cricket, that's all I've had to. Well, thanks to Mowin for joining us. Simon Mann discusses career with Phil Tofnall, Russell and a former teammate of Mowin's Alastor Cook. Brilliant servant, absolutely. What I look back at Mow, probably the most selfless player to play for England in terms of would do anything which was the team required. He batted from one to eight, I think he almost batted nine, I think in one game, but he opened the batting in Abu Dhabi which allowed Adil Rashid to play bad at three, came back here and batted at three in those ashes, Brendan McCum didn't he as well, would do anything the team required, probably to his hindrance of his batting because he was actually, you remember when he was first picked, he was picked as a batsman who bowled a bit of part-time spin because we didn't have any other spinners and he, we thought was the best option because he spun it really hard and we thought Fourseemers and him as an option was the way to go. So that's why, and his bowling, you know, the mount he developed his bowling was incredible. He had the natural gift of spin able to spin the ball so hard which allowed him to cause bold jaffers at certain times and the only thing I would like to say about Mow, actually, was a lot tougher than people gave him credit for, you know, the stuff of, because he was a such an elegant stroke player, people didn't really kind of like appreciate that in real tough moments, he was a clutch cricketer as well and you saw it probably more in white ball cricket, you mentioned that 100, his first 100 in that 2014, that was a great example of guts and determination. I think you always know that you have if you pay that many times during and one of the great team makes a great fun, great fun tourist, great to have around and yeah, he should be very proud of his England career. If I said to you at the start of his international career that you would take over 200 test wickets, would you believe me? No, I don't think, I don't know, he would have believed you either, but you could see he had something, you know, in terms of the ability to just spin that ball hard, but he just hadn't bold, he just wasn't a bowler, he was a bit, and in one sense, a bit like the Jamie Smith situation, he wasn't the front line bowler at Worcester when we picked him, he was batting at three and bold a bit of part time, he was thrown in the deep end, took on the challenge and came out the end, bold England to a number of victories on the last day a few years later, so yeah, I wouldn't have thought he'd got 200 at the start, but then I did when he started bowling more and more and his, you know, his trajectory of improvement was like poor sky high. Yeah, a silky smooth batter, destructive batter as well, wasn't he? I mean, that's sort of cover drive, how many times have we seen that? You know, not really a lot of foot movement and then just absolute timing, fantastic batsman, you know, he seemed a reluctance, you know, didn't he? But then once he got into it and realised that he could really sort of affect the game, I think he really started working on it and as Cookie said, really spun the ball hard and was one of those guys who you could throw in the ball, you know, on the four innings and he could do a job more than a job for you, you know, beautifully, beautifully, I've seen him bowl. So yeah, great servant to England and yeah, he should be very proud of his career. Sure is a proud moment for him, a proud career. From an outside point of view, he's one who went under the radar, but at the end of the day when you look at what he's done and why England trusted him so much, you understand what it is. England's third most prolific spin I would think. That's what the numbers say. Sometimes from a distance you tend to think he's not performed to potential, but it's more about the off-spin, which goes unnoticed. I think looking at or watching a lot of spinners bowl during the time he's one of those who gave it the most rip, I'd say, more than tougher as easily, more energy behind it. That's a bit sledding tough, that was a roller. No, he really did, you know, he really did give it a fizz and you say the likes of him and Graham Swan, you know, you know, absolute match winners for England. Was he a better test match player than whiteboard player or better whiteboard player than test match player, do you think, Cookie? That's a good question. I played a lot more within in the test match environment, so I'm going to think, I'm going to say that he actually had probably more of an impact in bigger moments in test cricket than he did in whiteboard cricket, but the reason he played as much whiteboard stuff, because he was so versatile as well, like, you know, those three in one cricketers, you can bowl, you can bat in the power play, you can bowl anytime, you kind of wanted him to as well, so I can see that, but I think actually his better format was test cricket, and it probably, unless he underachieved as a batter, but I think because he was so versatile and he did move up and down the order, stability actually was, I have to be partly to blame for it, but you tried to, you could fit other players in if you moved Mo, and because Mo did move, it probably upset his balance of his batting, if he just say he batted at five that his whole career, I think he would have bit like his bowling, he might have scored more than 500s, but as his overall impact of games, you know, we had this thing, it wasn't, you know, weighted averages, it wasn't just the average, weighted average and game impact, and his game impact was always a lot higher than a lot of other players, obviously all around us tend to do that, but whatever position he played in, he had always had a game impact. When you came to knock on his hotel door of an evening, I don't know, a couple of days out for a test match, did he go, ah, cookie, where do you want me to bat this game? No, I do remember opening with him in Abu Dhabi, and we were laughing, we were cool, like, about the fact that he'd batted every situation, and I think even that, and that wasn't the ashes when he came back with stakes in 29, he came back, was it 20, was it, when did he stay to come back, when did he, the last one here, and he was like, batted anyway, didn't he, when he, batted at three when Oli Pope hurt his shoulder, I will do it, I don't care, I'll do it, and just, that summed him up perfectly, like, it was a tough challenge about it through, and he was suited for more five, six role, ideally, I think, but he was like, no, I'll do it for this team, because we didn't want Joe Root to go to number three. Well, thanks to Alice, to Simon, Phil and Russell for that chat, and that's it for this episode of the TMS podcast, make sure you subscribe on BBC Sam, so you don't miss a thing from this test series between England and Sri Lanka, and while you're there, check out the latest episode of Tailenders, where Greg, Felix and Jimmy gathering the boardroom here at the Oval to find out more about the England debutant, Josh Hull. Test Match Special is back on air at 10 o'clock on Monday on five sports extra, and BBC sounds for the fourth day, and probably the final day, but the Test Match here at the Oval. Hey, I hear you think podcasts are all about true crime, huh? Well, wise guy, the iHeartRadio app's got all kinds of podcasts. We got stuff you should know, and stuff they don't want you to know. We got Bobby Bones, Big Boy and Lou later, we got SpongeBob, binge pants, and exotic erotic story time. We got doe boys, two dudes in the kitchen, Green Eggs and Dan. Hey, we got Elf Quest. 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