Test Match Special

Can England make it six from six?

Henry Moeran is joined by BBC Cricket Correspondent Jonathan Agnew and Chief Cricket Writer Stephan Shemilt to preview England’s final Test of the summer at the Oval. We’ll hear from England head coach Brendon Mccullum, after agreeing to take over both the Test and white-ball teams. We’ll also hear from captain Ollie Pope, who tells us what it’s like to face debutant Josh Hull.

Duration:: 52m
Broadcast on:: 05 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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Well, with me are the BBC's cricket correspondent, Jonathan Agnew, and chief cricket writer, Stefan Shemilt, before Aga's, we hear from Brendan McCollum. What was your reaction earlier this week when we heard that news at T? Was that going to become the dual coach? Yeah, I was surprised. I mean, Steph, bless him, was ahead of the game with this and wrote a piece about it. He obviously got a bit of a wind about what might happen. So fair play there, but it made absolute sense. So the only issue for me with McCollum was always whether he had the time, the commitment to do it, you know, he lives in New Zealand and Dunedin. So that was the complication for me. But clearly, these couple of years here have settled his mind. You'll hear him talk about his love of English cricket. And the players and the supporters and the whole setup, really, has kind of won him over. And that's, so I think once that was done and they've clearly come to some arrangements about how much he's going to do, and he doesn't time off here and there to go and see his family. Then as far as his suitability of the job, well, that's not even up for any sort of debate. I mean, he's perfect, just like he was perfect two years ago for the test job. But that mindset, which is what England's white ball players have been missing just as England's test cricketers were when he and Ben Stokes took over. So it's a great appointment. They'll have to manage his time, manage his energy. He does that pretty well himself, to be honest. And he's taken a lot on, you know, two ashes, serious, home and away. A world cup as well. So he's got a lot on his plate. Steph, it feels such a natural fit, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. And I think when Matthew Mott left the job in July, if you'd asked anyone who would be the best person to be England's white ball coast, they would have said Brendan McCollum, but it just seemed like a non-starter because the jobs had been split. And it seemed like there were too many times when England had to have two teams at once that the head coach had to be in two places at once. But the schedule does ease in the New Year and over the rest of McCollum's contract. And then just a few things started to drop into place as to how this might happen. So it was going on behind the scenes that McCollum had been approached. And then there were just hints here and there that it might be happening. So Rob Key spoke to Sky Sports on the first morning of the last test. And he hinted towards the schedule easing ever so slightly. Owen Morgan, who is a great mate of McCollum and Josh Butler, had suggested twice that Rob Key should be approaching Brendan McCollum. So when Morgan goes public with something like that, you start to think, hang on, is something happening here. We spoke about it during the last test. Angus, I know it was an idea that you liked. You liked it more than my idea when I said all test matches should be played with a pink ball and you looked like me like I've got three heads. Yes, that's true. And then it was announced on Tuesday and I think it's a wide sort of excitement and a little bit of surprise. I think a lot of people are surprised and excited as the last time England gave Brendan McCollum a job. But we're going to hear from him. We've heard him speak today. He's just uplifting, isn't he? When you hear him talk, you come out thinking, I don't know about the players feeling 10 foot tall and bullet proof I did. I felt like I could take on the world after listening to Brendan McCollum. He's got such a positive outlook. And if he can bring that to the white ball team, they've lost their smile a little bit over the past 12 months. If he can do what he's done with the test side, then you think that the white ball team have got a really rosy, immediate future. Right, that's it from Brendan McCollum. Then he spoke to you, Agas, overlooking the damp outfield here at the oval. Yeah, look, I think firstly, I'm incredibly humbled to be given the opportunity to try and, I guess, do what we've been able to achieve with the test side. Or be it we're not the finished article in that yet. But to be able to bring the style of play, which we've been able to operate with across all formats of English crickets. And it's really exciting for me. And it's also really humbling, you know, from, from South Eden, it's a long way to, to being the head coach of the England cricket team across all formats. So, you know, I'm really excited by, I think there's some tremendous talent, which sits within English cricket. And there's some great opportunities the next little while. So, it should be fun. Did you think about it when you took the test job, were you offered it when you took the test job? But would you have taken it initially when you took the test job, do you think? I think over the last couple of years, the schedule almost made it impossible to have one person doing it across all formats. With the schedule easing somewhat, not completely easing, but it's easing somewhat. It allows the opportunity for someone, if that prepared to, to work hard, it gives them the opportunity to, to go across all the formats. You know, there will be some challenges among illusions to that more time on the road. My family, I'll have to bring them along for the ride a lot more as well. I'll have to rely on a lot of the guys who sit amongst the coaching staff at times as well to be able to step in when, when the odd occasion comes up. But that's exciting in itself because it gives other people the opportunity to grow and to flourish, and ultimately, I'll be the one in the gun for the results, and I won't fire them with that. But it's an exciting opportunity, and I feel like, I feel like the bet's worth it. Yeah, it's a big commitment, isn't it? I mean, will you miss some series to give yourself a bit of a home time, do you think? Yeah, look, I think there's some series which, you know, we were able to step out at certain times, and we'll do that with all of the players and, you know, support staff too. I think it's important to make sure all guys are fresh at times, and, you know, I don't know when those will be. But I think it's fair to say, you know, some of our assistant coaches will be the opportunity to step up and run the team at certain times, and I'll still very much have a firm hand on how it's running, and make sure that we're staying true to what we're about. But it probably just takes the pressure off them as well, because the results are ultimately so with me. What is our English cricket, the setup, or the players, or the management, or something? What is it about it that's attracted you so keenly to English cricket? It's a great place, isn't it? I think it's a great place. It's full of tradition. It's an incredible history of English cricket. And I walk into the grounds and you sit on the balcony at Lord's, you sit here at the Oval, you go to the train bridge, all these places all around England. You see the fans that turn up and support English cricket. You see how much the game means to the people in this country, and it's a game which has given me an incredible life, to be able to still be involved in the game, and to do it in the country which supports it so well, and has such an influence over the global game, is incredibly humbling, and that's why, you know, when the opportunities arise. You only really get a couple of opportunities in life to make sizeable change and impact, and I think this is one of those times, and that's what excites me the most. Yeah, and it's a very exciting schedule. You've got two ashes, you've got a home in a way, you've got a world cup as well. So that's just a lot to keep you going at that time. Yeah, lots of opportunities, right? So, we'll see where we land, but I'm excited by them, and I think it would be nice to have a similar voice across all formats, and it gives a real sense of clarity to all those who are operating as players within the England system. This is how we want to play over the next few years, and let your talent come out, put your hand up, and we'll have a good look at it. So, about this summer, it was always going to be an interesting time, wasn't it? Slightly low-key from an opponent's point of view and other things going on. You've shown a bit of a ruthless side as well, and the Jimi Anderson tap on the shoulder at the start. New players coming in. How do you think five test matches here with one to go that this season has gone for England? Yeah, look, firstly, we've been tested right throughout the summer. Whilst the results look like five now on the surface, it seems that we've walked through every game. That's certainly not the case. There's been many times in most of the test matches where the game could have gone either way, and if we weren't as further down the line in terms of where we are now as a cricket team with our mentality and our ethos, we may have been exposed, but we've been able to come through those times. We've been able to make good decisions and still remain that positive side that we want to be, and we've been able to ultimately get the results that we want. That's a real sign of improvement and maturity within the set-ups. We've introduced a lot of new talent throughout this summer as well, which after India, we identified as needing a bit of refinement, and that talent's gone really well. And that's always exciting, and that's always a pretty good sign of where your environment is, and I think when guys can come in and do well and not feel too much pressure and just able to go there and play cricket and let these skills come out. Yeah, it's been a really good summer so far. I think it's the summer we've improved as a cricket team. We're still not the finished article, I understand that. More time on the tools, more familiarity amongst us, will give us more opportunities to win some big series in the next little while. Just on Jimmy, obviously it wasn't an easy decision, and Jimmy took it incredibly well. Well, he's been an instrumental part of the side over the last couple of years, and he's allowed us to be able to fluently bring in the ethos of the scupro knife. We've had, and it's been a huge part of that. I think for Jimmy, whilst he's probably not the news he wanted to hear at the time, I think the fact that we flew over from England and we did it face-to-face, and I think that he really respected that. And as you've seen, his total investment, since the first test at Lord's as a player, to now being a consultant and a mentor within the setup, and seeing the talent that he's been able to work with and what he's been able to get out of that talent, I think it's worked really well and I'm excited. I think he's got a huge future as a coach, and we're so lucky to be able to call on that experience and that person to be able to help guide the next generation of fast bowlers. Have you always been good at making that sort of tough decision? Coaches manage how to do it, don't they? I mean, are you used to doing that? Did you worry about tapping him on the shoulder or not? Oh, you can't worry for the person, right? But I guess where I come from, South Len, you get awkward conversations on a fair few occasions, so you've got to become pretty comfortable with them. I guess it's how you handle them, and there's a level of respect there, which you need to make sure that you're delivering. You're not going to get every one of them right, but sometimes you need to make calls, which you think is for the betterment of the side, and it's going to take your team forward. And not everyone's always going to agree with those decisions, but you've got to have the conviction of what you and your methods and what you think the team needs to go. As far as the approach, particularly to batting, is concerned. Was it always the way that you looked at it? It might instill that very positive mindset for a couple of years, and then throttle back a bit. It does appear this summer as if there's been a more measured attitude to batting, when it's been required. Yeah, I don't know about that, to be honest, I think it's all circumstantial. Right at the start, we've never talked about traveling at six runs and over. That's a wide order start. No, that's been a byproduct of trying to create an environment where guys are able to block out the noise, they're able to be where their feet are, they're able to make good decisions and be totally present and allow their talent to come out. If that talent is six runs and over, then great. And on another day, that talent could be four runs, could be ten runs, you don't know. I guess what we're trying to do within the group is shift pressures, identify when we're under pressure. We make good decisions in that moment, but also be courageous enough and clear enough to be able to shift pressure back all the opposition. I firmly believe this game is as much as it's about skill, it's about shifting pressure onto the opposition. Maybe over the last two years, our batting group in particular, it's been pretty consistent. There's a natural maturing period there where guys become more familiar with other people's games and bounce off one another. I think this summer has been really good, but I still think that we've got to keep looking to put pressure on the opposition. You have made some really brave decisions as well. I'd love to give a shot, Bashir, for instance. Here, Jamie Smith, the head of Ben Folks, or difficult political decisions, if you like, internally. So about Josh Hull, and this is extraordinary, when he's taking what, 16 wickets in his career, two this year for 160-something, what is it about him that's making you pick him for this test match? Hello, cunning. First of all, I do believe County Cricket and Tess Creed are quite separate games, and if we were picking at County Cricket's side, we'd probably pick a very different side. And hence why we have that respect and the understanding of why counties, they do what they do with their own staff. But the job that we have and the tasks that we have is so different. And we identify the skill sets that we need for the conditions and the opposition we're going to come up against. And hence, the likes of Jamie Smith, Gus Atkinson, Shoebeshed, Tom Hartley, Overn, and India, Ran Armand and Puckstar. These sorts of guys, you'd say is that, Crawley, the perseverance with him, is because of the start. Initially, we obviously got some results after that. These types of players, we feel, give us the best opportunity to put pressure on the opposition. And I think Josh Hall is one of those guys. We look at six foot, plenty, he bowls good pace, swings the ball, he's left arm, he creates a nice addition to what we've got. Building is a bowling armory. And we know he's not going to be the finished product, just so that we know Shoebeshed, Gus Atkinson, and Jamie Smith, these guys, they aren't the finished product, but they've got incredibly high ceilings, and they're rough diamonds that it's up to us to get the best out of them, and to make sure that we shape them, and give them the environment where they can get to where we think they can get to a little bit quicker than what a good otherwise. This last one's about 30 days to go, I think, till the first ball is bold against Pakistan, but no one seems to know where yet, is that unsettling? It's always bothering you, I mean, does it affect selection for that tour or anything like that? Oh, definitely, a fixed selection, right? You can't pick a team if you don't know where it's going to be. But we're hoping over the next couple of days we'll find out, and when we do, we'll sit down and work out the team that we think will give us a best chance. Well, that was Brendan McCallum speaking on the eve of the final test match between England and Sri Lanka. Plenty to one pick there. I mean, first and foremost, English cricket feels stronger for Brendan McCallum being across the overarching role and responsibility for both the Wipell and Wipell format. Yeah, I think it does, and I say we go back to the visual point, really, it's a case of his time management, really, initially. And I think that he wanted to see what the job was like two years ago. Big call for him, but what's interesting is that these days, most of these high-profile coaches spend their time getting rid of international jobs and cherry picking the nice franchise jobs, and they're not away from home nearly so much they get paid perfectly well. So it's interesting, he's taken this on, as I said earlier. I mean, he is taking on a big commitment with high-profile series, and if at the end of his contract in '27, England have won the ashes, and they've won the World Cup in South Africa, his stock is going to soar, but there's, of course, the gamble, which he wouldn't even think about because he's such a positive person, but if it doesn't, then he will find the usual cycle, goes round and England are looking for somebody else, and he will be looking for another job. So it is a gamble, but from what we've seen of him so far, I've done him a long time, he's always been this very refreshing, very positive, wouldn't like to upset him sort of a person, you know, he gives you a bit of a look, which when it's a positive look is great, but I wouldn't like to upset Brandon McCollum because you would know about it, but he's got a really good way with people, a very good way of putting a positive message out there, and let's face it, players respond to him. When he was given the test job a couple of years ago, I can remember you and I spoke on the phone now, because I think you were on holiday. Yes, I was. And you're talking about how excited you were... I was so excited, I actually went to work when I was on holiday, I actually broadcast. And that's kind of the feeling that we have now, because we've seen what McCollum's done with the test side, and we've seen how it can work with the white ball team. This is the second time that England have tried split coaches, they tried it 10 years ago with Andy Flower and Ashley Giles, and when McCollum and Matthew Mott were appointed, it seemed to make perfect sense for reasons that we know the schedule, the workload, the fact that McCollum does live in New Zealand, the fact that the teams were largely separate from a personnel point of view, but England have tried it twice, and both times it hasn't really worked. Great idea and theory, tough in practice, mainly because one team generally gets overlooked for whatever reason, and it is the test team that really takes priority, and we've seen that over the past couple of years, just because the test team have played so well. In general, if you've got two squads to pick at once, the test side gets first, Dibs, and McCollum and Stokes are such massive personalities, and whoever got the white ball job, unless it was probably Ricky Ponting, it was one name that was sort of bandied around, and he distanced himself pretty quickly. I can't think of another personality that would have been able to occupy maybe Owen Morgan, because they're such good mates, that would have been able to occupy the space that McCollum and Stokes do, particularly because Butler, just Butler, the white ball captain is more of an introvert. So as soon as McCollum was said, yes, I can do it, and I think I can do it for these reasons, it makes perfect sense, and the vibes that McCollum brings, that he's bought to the test side, that is just what the white ball team made. Well, the test team unusually has become the glamour team, isn't it? Yeah. So it's been, I thought it was sorry for Matthew Mott really competing against that, and the priority that had to be given to the test squad to rebuild, and the way that they played, it must be pretty difficult for Mott actually. The only thing I'd say is if you go in terms of the prioritising of the red ball team over the white ball team, if you go back to that Trevor Bayless era building up to 2019, it felt very much that that white ball team, that felt like the focus at that time. It did, but don't forget in his four years in charge, Bayless won the ashes, he was the last England coach, win the ashes at home in 2015. Now admittedly, he then went four years building up to win the World Cup in 2019, but there was still only one coach in charge, and the thing that I actually came back to was if you think there are three big teams in Global Cricket, England, Australia and India, Australia and India don't split their head coaches, for as big a jobs as they are, for how much they play, and for how much they travel, it just feels like you need one man, even if that man, like McCollum, is going to dip in and out and give responsibility to the assistants, who can say, right, this series is here, this player is going to play there, we're going to arrest him there, this is where we're putting our focus, just so you haven't got the situation where one team is looking at the others going, they've got that player, they've got this, they've got this, they're winning, we're losing, it just creates a problem. Well, how is this going to work, Argus, because you look at the schedule, the test match here at the Oval finishes, the next day there's a T20 against Australia, and so there is going to be, we know the schedule eases a little bit, we've spoken about that, but there are going to be times where it's going to be possible for one coach to be overseeing it. Yeah, after this game, McCollum will go home, I guess, they've got a month before they play somewhere against Pakistan, we don't know where yet, they've got to pick a team for that, but they can't do that until they know where they're going to be playing, but then he'll have a break, and then he'll do that series, but he's not doing any whiteboard cricket till January, all he's got was his contract was extended too, so he's got the test here, he's in New Zealand, so that'll suit him nicely as well, they will just juggle it, I mean he's got Marcus Treskothik as a deputy, who clearly is extremely good at that job, whether he'll be the right person for the main job, I'd probably doubt, I think Marcus is an outstanding vice captain, I think he's probably an outstanding deputy coach, but he'll step in when McCollum takes a break, I mean I think that's what he'll be, so it's a low-key whiteboard series, I think McCollum will have a break, I think it makes absolutely perfect sense. It's interesting actually that the make of the England backroom team is made up a lot of coaches now who were actually sort of second in command during their career like Treskothik, like Paul Collingwood, Jimi Anderson's in there now, I wonder what this might mean for him going forward as well, a bit more responsibility. Freddy Flintoff's been a really flint off, absolutely, and so McCollum's pretty honest about it, he said there will be times when I sit out, there will be times when I do give more responsibility to these guys, and that can only be a good thing for English cricket, because I would say as a nation we've been historically poor, into turning our top players into head coaches, if you think of the times in the last 20 years when England have had really really good teams, 2005 on DeVaughne and then 2011ish under Andrew Strauss, I can't think of many of those players who've gone on to become head coaches. Fair enough, well maybe not. The commentary box is a better option. Absolutely, same with you Akkers, but if when Brendan, and he mentioned it in his press conference today, if when he does ride off into the sunset to play rugby and sort his horses and drink wine in 2027, the likes of Draskothic and Collingwood and Flintoff are in a better place to become head coaches, then McCollum is actually leaving a real legacy to the English game. It's an interesting pattern, isn't it, that you look at the successful coaches in the last 25 years, Fletcher, Flower, Bayless, McCollum, what is the one link between them all, none of them are English? And it's a peculiarity that McCollum again follows that pattern, but he has got these deputies that are the great and the good of you like of successful English sides of the last 20 years. I think the overseas players have come in and they've had a lot of respect from the players straight away. They've come in without feeling, I think English coaches would be a bit smothered sometimes and a bit constrained and not brave enough perhaps to really go like McCollum goes. I mean, Duncan Fletcher wasn't really like that either, but I think he was, they're all different personalities, Andy Flower is a very different personality, it's a brand of McCollum, but they've just known how to bring the best out of those players and I mean for me the most oppressive has been McCollum. I just think he's incredibly straightforward. I think if he talks to you, you trust him and that's something that is not always the case with a coach and the relationship between a player and a coach is often a bit of a difficult one because if the player goes to the coach with a problem, the coach immediately knows he's got a problem, so it's often the assistant coach that gets that sort of conversation where I think you easily go to Brendan McCollum with whatever issue it might be about your own game or how you think they're playing or whatever it may be and I think you'd always get an honest response from McCollum and one that wouldn't be held against necessarily, I think that counts for a lot. And just to go back to how this is going to work and whether or not the schedule is or not, England have talked that up a little bit, they are still going to be incredibly busy, but you can see sort of natural times when McCollum might not need to be involved, will he go to to the series in Ireland next September as an example unless he wants to go and sample the pubs of Dublin, I'm not sure, those are the things that you could see him. Missing out, England go to New Zealand over the next two winters while that's a win straight away and actually, when we've said he's extended his contract by two years, he hasn't really because he was due to finish at the end of the 2026 ashes, he's actually going through to the 2027 World Cup in that autumn, so that's only 18 months, it's an extra two test summers and an extra one big white ball, two big white ball events when you think of the the T20 World Cup in 26 and then the 50 over World Cup in 27, you can see how England are going to manage this. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. What fascinates me about McCollum is he has such presence and I remember this going back, yes, Stephen, you and I were in an Irish pub after a World Cup match, New Zealand had been knocked out of the tournament and there was a group of people, a group of the New Zealand team, they said, all of you met Paz, you met Paz and you knew something, it might have been the media management, we went over there and just around him, there was an aura and there was 20 people with him right at the centre, he wasn't holding court but there was just something about him that screamed, I'm in charge, leadership, respect and it's very hard to pinpoint how you develop that but he's got it, whatever it is. I think it's totally natural, I mean this way, he batted, he was in control when he batted, he took brave decisions when he batted, he got some wrong, he could be a bit reckless with his batting as we know, a brilliant eye, I think what also stands with Colum out is that although he had one dodgy moment earlier in his career, until that spirit of the game here but actually generally since then he's always played the game with huge respect for his opponents, for the game itself and for his own teammates and I think that is also something that people respect that, he just plays the game the right way, he says he's fair, he's straight as the way that he is. What about the England test some of them, we heard him speak about team selection there Stephan but also about the fact that there wasn't necessarily a change of approach despite the fact that looking from the outside, yeah well that hasn't been hasn't it, it feels that way doesn't it, yes of course the house, you know if you compare the way they've batted this summer to the way they batted two summers ago it's a completely different mindset, you know it's still positive, that's the thing, I mean basketball was not necessarily about the smashing the ball around the boundary, it was the positive mindset, it was just putting your minds a different place, one in which you were you were free to to express yourself, I know it's a bit of a cliché but but there was more than that and those first couple of years it was all about entertaining and so he said there was been no change, there has, look at the way they played at times in India when there were really difficult situations that required some common sense and maturity frankly to manage a situation that was going from bad to worse and they they threw it away and yet this summer they've been happy one or two occasions not as many as he said, every test match he said they could have lost well you know I'm not going to buy that for a moment you know which three-day games you're talking about but they have at times when they have been in trouble they've batted sensibly they've batted hey how you should bat and you know I think that those have to be watching the last two years if thoroughly enjoyed it really enjoyed the entertainment but there has been that sense of frustration in the ashes last year those moments we thought why have you done that you know why on earth can't you just play the bit of common sense you know when Nathan Lyons being stretched off lords of hook shots and everything else just just play with you know put your sensible head on and just play well that that that has been done this summer it's as if they've gone through that period of rebuilding of reprogramming minds and then now at a place that that he likes where the players know they're free to play their own way but also they've got to start winning some games it was after the the last test in India where McCulham sat a group of journalists down in the hotel and I'm Charlotte and he used this word refined we need to refine the way that we play and we all sat up and thought oh that's interesting and wouldn't you have loved to have been a fly on the wall when Brendan McCulham and Ben Stokes themselves sat down at the end of that India series knowing what had happened in the ashes knowing what had happened in India and it was actually in the biggest series when England committed the biggest errors the biggest mistakes it was almost like the higher the stakes the more machismo they had to show and the more likely they were to come unstuck and then when he spoke to the to the media again today McCulham sort of expanded on that idea of refinement and and we talk about the way that England have played and all he hopes actually been really honest with you yes with that but McCulham expanded on it slightly more to say it's not just about the way we play it's been a little bit in our selection and we've seen that how England have changed their team and I think they've gone for players with a specific mentality and the other thing that McCulham said was we are trying to get better at identifying the crucial moments in a game and how we win those and how we put pressure back onto the opposition and sometimes I think England just thought well that's go as hard as possible and now they've been a little bit smarter in those big moments now frankly the opposition have been of a certain quality in this summer and maybe winning those big moments has been slightly more straightforward than it would would have been against Australia or in India we'll learn a bit more about that over the winter because in a way assignment in Pakistan or wherever it may be will be slightly harder as will test matches in New Zealand albeit not quite as strong as a New Zealand team as we've been used to over the past couple of years and then we'll really find out at home to India a way to Australia can England put everything that they are learning for one of a better word evolving into can they put all that into practice and the squad selection and McCulham is speaking about what they look for in terms of the selection pool and not disregarding county cricket but saying it's a very different thing I thought that was a really interesting idea because he's explaining what happened here I mean you know with with Jamie Smith and Ben folks I mean literally he sort of opened that dressing him door there rolled a grenade in and shut it and boom and Alex you it's got to sort out the politics you know when you when they selected Jamie Smith over Ben folks wasn't quite difficult for Alec that and similarly at summer set of course where Jack Leach is toiling away and and sure Bashir is going from strength to strength I mean I think they've both picked the right moves and clearly also giving Jimmy Anderson the tap on the shoulder at the start of summer was the right thing to do this summer is about getting a squad in place who are going to hopefully serving them well next year with against India and Australia so you can see why they've done it they've selected players that are going to play the way that they want to play and I mean Jamie Smith has been a fantastic fantastic pick I'm interested in Josh Holt yeah that that there there is this going back to that old style of Baz Ball if you like is this is is this a step too far this this young lad who is a massive individual yes he's taken 16 first class we're getting in his life and he's taken to this year at an average of 160 now that is a massive ask to come and play a test match now he's playing against a demoralized Sri Lankan team look at the weather there's cloud there's rain there's a bit of green in the pitch you know it looks on the face of it's being a nice time to come and play the first test match but that when you compare it to the other two selections Bashir and Smith this is another level this this is another level and we'll see I mean it's it's one of his hunches that might come off I really agree with that in the of all the left field selections this is as far left as England have gone in there in their choices because actually if you go back in some of the selections they have made they've made a lot of sense actually so that tour of Pakistan a couple years ago when we were looking around the country thinking it is the spin ball and cupboard dry well they took Will Jackson Lee and Liam Livingston a sort of all-round options you could see why that would work this summer sorry going back to to India last winter again spinners they wanted a tall left armor well Tom Hartley it made sense Bashir only really went as the fourth spinner they said we've sort of seen something in him here we're going to take him along for the experience and then it sort of worked out that they needed him more than they they expected at the beginning of the tour and he's turned out to be a very fine bowler when you see Jamie Smith bat it's a no brainer to have him playing test cricket and he is not a wicked keeping novice by any stretch of the imagination being second fiddle to the best glove man in the world in county cricket doesn't mean that you're coming into into test cricket with symbols on your hands he is and perfectly adequate wicked keeper England found a way of getting Jamie Smith the batter into their side this is completely different Josh Hall has played 10 first class matches he's got a bowling average of nearly 63 someone like Sam Cook with a bowling average of less than 20 must be thinking what have I got to do to get a game but England have chosen our attributes they've said the space in our side is for someone like this who bowls quicker is a point of difference left arm a bit rough for Bashir you know to pick Sam Cook he's a bit of a you know he would be Chris Wilkes's replacement the question is and this is something you've always talked a lot about I guess is the integrity of selection so if a Sam Cook or a batter is going to do brilliantly in the county championship and they think I've never got a chance of playing for England because I haven't got what they are looking for that might cause a problem we're not at that stage yet but you do wonder one day will that come yeah Candy Cricket is all the stronger for the motivation of doing you could play for England and if if you feel that's been taken away I mean Holka coming tomorrow both on that far end get a bit of bounce to left-handed career in Iraq Nick to slip and you know it could be the making of it but you know I hope it is but you can't argue against the fact it is a huge gamble and it's it's a it's a absolute shot of the dark as far as the selections concerned there is there is no pedigree no experience for him to fall back on there are other bowlers around it's a shame Ben Stokes isn't playing because I think Stokes could have been you know obviously an arm around him and so on I think he's that he is that sort of captain Popis Wobsey trying to find work it work his game out at the moment it might work it might work I mean McCallum and everything touches turns to gold but in terms of all the selections you're absolutely right that we've had this is by far the the most random I'm not against it though by the way I'm completely not against it I'm not this isn't me criticizing the selection like you say yes we give you context absolutely yeah and because most most of the the selections that England have made have come off straight away you know there's any number of debutants particularly bowlers who've come in and taken five wicket halls and if you are putting together an England attack when you want that Swiss army knife of options a left armor is the thing they haven't got and like McCallum said earlier on is it actually a gamble he's six foot seven he bolts at decent pace he swings the ball even if it doesn't come off now we reckon it will one day five wickets as well in that warm up match against Sri Lanka at Worcester so he he has faced these these batsmen as well so that there is a little bit of something there let's hear from the England captain then Oli Popis spoke to him a couple of days before the game and asked him about the prospect of an England summer winning every single match for the series I think we would obviously add a tough timeout in India and or drawing an ashes series and so I think to get to get into a winning habit it's really good for us I think we've had different guys step up throughout the summer and if we could put together a clean sweep this summer and win six out of six games then I think that would be sort of a really special summer and it'll just put us in good stead going forward I think winning winning is a habit so yeah the more we do the better for us going forward how are your energy levels because you said that campus is a lot of extra responsibilities and and everything else how are you feeling yeah good I think it's look Sonya a three match series I guess after five in India and not ours I played the whole ashes but I guess you prepare yourself for it I think he actually goes pretty quickly and I know for I know come a week's time then then the series is done so I think whenever you get a test match especially obviously coming to the eye of all my energy levels are good I think I get so excited whenever I get to put on a sorry shirt here or an England shirt and obviously leave the boys out this week I mean you can't not have some good energy for that so no I can't I can't wait for this week I'm desperate for runs yeah I feel always I go into every game desperate for runs and and sometimes it doesn't come off so hopefully hopefully I can put some together this week how are you hitting it in the net so you it's a long net session this morning yeah I just wanted to find a bit of rhythm I'm heading them fine yeah heading them yeah I feel good in the next I think last week I just ended up I got obviously top edge to pull shot and got caught a deep point so yeah it's just that is the way cricket can go sometimes I'll learn from it but now I'm feeling feeling my normal self so yeah hopefully there's some there's some runs this week so you're chatting with Ben Stokes out there how close is that relationship been over the last few weeks yeah it's been good I think I think I think since being his vice we've worked closely on and off on and off the pitch but no I think I've sort of learned a lot from him since he's taken over the captaincy and how he goes about leading the team and trying to get the best best out of players so I've learnt on him a fair bit for that especially in the field so no he's been he's been awesome and he's he's very understanding he knows he knows obviously what it's like he's had his his amazing times as captain and then had a few losses I guess in the winter as well so he knows he knows what it's like so he yeah a great person to lean on he's got a great cricket brain so no he's he's great to have in the change room Josh Hall seemed to be having a busy time in the nets I was pretty keen I think they don't normally face bowlers in the nets but I was pretty keen because I haven't faced him yet to get in there and see what he's got and then pretty pretty content that he's good to go and I think yeah his ceilings his ceiling's so high and he's pretty high as well obviously six-seven so his ceiling is massive in that he's got he's got a test match to come in play at one of the best grounds in the world in a team that's tuned up in the series so I hope he can just go out and enjoy himself and show show the world what he can do but there's there's no pressures coming from from inside the camp we know how young he is and and we just know what he the bowler he could be so he's got a great chance to to learn a few things this week and obviously make his debut which I can't can be happy for what he's facing Josh Hall like I mean he's he's obviously six foot seven and can swim the ball at a decent pace so he's obviously raw but he's like I said his ceiling is high he can he's got some good skills he's got some good swing in the net and yeah I'm sure he'll be able to go and show what what he can do this week I just find it an emotional day for for all those in English and sorry cricket with grand thought put into service today yeah absolutely I think fair fear of us they're heading along this afternoon a great man who who's obviously really missed in this environment and and and I'm sure overall in this obviously what happened is such a shame and where yes it would be special today paying tribute to him and and he's definitely in the minds of all the cricket as this week Ollie Pope there Agas and understandably he was quite keen to move on from any questions about his own form but but those questions are going to continue to swell they will I mean I don't know how how damaging that is because you know they they they can write off these three games if and they'll let's face it they are big supporters I mean the backing the game to Zach Crawley for instance you know pay dividends in the end every nose Ollie Pope come back he's a very talented player but he just has this issue starting out he just doesn't seem to be able to settle down just give the bowl of those first 30 balls get your head down and then play which seems the common sense thing to do because he's got all the shots in the book you can score at a good rate well just get yourself in calm yourself down get used to the the situation and the atmosphere and everything else and and shoulder that will pay dividends I don't know why it is that he still has his problem but you know if it doesn't work out it's not the end of Ollie Pope you know he has stepped up he's done a good job as captain I think actually his captain quite well I know one or two have said that they didn't think it's right person well that's fine but actually at all traffic particularly where he had to work quite hard to fiddle those wickets I saw some nice things it's an interesting field playthings so I don't think he's done a bad job yeah he needs to get some runs of course he doesn't and he knows this ground very well but I don't I'd be amazed if two or low scores here means he's not going to be in the first test against Pakistan. His setup here could not be better in terms of the opportunity to actually find a better form though because they're against aside that they're they're leading to nil against and it's a ground where he averages over 80 in first-class cricket his two test matches here he's averaging over 53 so it's all set up perfectly for him. You can imagine him getting a score this week actually Ollie I say that but looking at the weather forecast I don't know and the grey clouds and the fact the colours are at the moment I don't know which batters are going to get a score this week runs might be a bit at a bit of a premium Ollie Pope's going to get a really really long rope from England I would be stunned if he doesn't play all six test matches or seven test matches between now up to Christmas I think it's a bigger week for Dan Lawrence to make sure that he gets himself on those winter tours because England tend to only take one reserve batter and if Jordan Cox also covers the wicket keeping position then you would say that Cox is in a slightly stronger position and I guess that that one thing we haven't sort of lingered on in terms of the Brendan McCollum news is how that affects Ben Stokes who may be England captain for a little longer if Brendan McCollum is around and therefore the need for a vice captain to one day be to become England captain gets kicked down the road slightly and that question of whether one day Ollie Pope might one day be the England test captain well we might have found an answer for it this week the job may actually pass him by to someone younger than him now like say say Harry Brooke it's just interesting guess bringing back to where we started the conversation how McCollum's extended tenure has little knock-ons all across the test and white ball teams of all teams to be a part of though this this side where they do have that loyalty we saw it was that crawl in and Brendan McCollum mentioned it that they gave him a long time to find form so Ollie Pope while all of the talking around should feel confident that actually he's within that camp he is very settled as part of that squad yes first captain I mean you know I think any more needs to be said at the moment I mean we know how well he can play um and and yeah we don't know how much the captaincy has has has preyed on his mind and therefore they'll they'll definitely give him the run without the captaincy um to to get some form back what about Sri Lanka then a side who have had moments at the top of top of the order has been problematic for them throughout some talk of command amenders potentially moving up to three but Dan and Jair de Silva has has pepoued that and said that it'll stay at seven that's why he's been scoring the runs talking about four seamers in this test match though quite keen to try and do that was that would see Jair Sarir out of the side but you know they're finding their way and they've had little moments well they have I mean we know all the issues about them coming unprepared the trouble is you get unprepared you lose a game and you got really no no time to get it back together again um you know they just they just look a bit rudderless really obviously to see what happens if if da Silva wins the toss tomorrow and it's a bit like this you know he badly got his fingers burn at lords goodness knows what he was thinking there um to let England bat first and beautiful day on a slow flat pitch you know it was a bit of a disaster that waiting to happen but you know he might he might well find the conditions if they like this tomorrow means that he should you should bowl first if the game was taking place today and they managed to get out there I think I think yeah obviously any anyone would win the toss and bowl first today there's there's some grass on the pitch our old friend Lee the grounds one's taking quite a lot off um but it's spent much of the day under covers so there's there's bandwidth of moisture there he's got the toss wrong twice actually he hasn't he Dan and Jay he won it at all traffic and batted when he probably should have bolded and then and then vice versa at lords and absolutely if we turn up tomorrow and it is like this here at the oval even though it is normally you know such a good pitch for batting here you'd think that any any skipper that wins a toss would want to jump on the opportunity to field first they've had moment Sri Lanka but they just haven't been I guess it comes back to what to what Brendan McCollum saying about about England being a bit smarter about winning those big moments what were England on on day one at lords 216 for six when Atkinson walked to the crease um after that it all sort of unraveled and once England made that that huge first inning score you couldn't see anything other than an England win same old Trafford when uh Sri Lanka's top order failed and they had an awful third morning of the game when England were batting in England just just got away from them I think we'd all be surprised if it was anything other than England you know winning this series three now and completing that that's six match clean sweep across the summer hard to see that if we get the full game in ag is hard to see in England uh anything bottomed England win they'd have to play pretty badly wouldn't they they'd have to bat badly certainly once probably twice um for that to happen Sri Lanka's fast bowlers whether they choose the four seamers they're all honest they'd run in hard actually I think I think that lads have played at the oval really gave it everything you know given that the captain has stitched them up uh you know they kept running in um and that that's all he can ask for so they'll do the same but he thinks they're just a just a better side and um if if they lost to Sri Lanka given the summer that they've had then I think they'll be uh yeah real real real surprise it's a bit gloomy ag is if they were going to go off a bad light now would it be okay to chuck out a pink ball no but hey because it would go all over the place the game would be done and that would be that it'd be mayhem at right as per last week I want one certainty and one surprise you call to Joe route hundred stuff but you lose points because you didn't say they're gonna be two of them well the certainty we'd have to say given um given England's recent record with debutants is that Joshua's gonna take a five for bowling debutants have done so well in the Brendan McCollum Ben Stokes era my surprise why is Joe route is he 94 runs yes 94 runs um he's not going to get there this week that'd be something we've got there i guess that's a bad shout because i i think you probably will get there i don't have that as my certainty this seems to be playing so well um but the only issue that you have is you it's possible the way things go they could only battle once i suppose so okay i mean my my certainty last week was that Joel Wilson would have a decision overturned um which happened at least once didn't it so perhaps we would controversial this time that Joel Wilson i think is in the middle again um this time he's going to have a clean sheet okay he's going to have a clean sheet um and i'm going to go for Joe route becoming the highest score as well and it cookie had a hard hard game last match with all his records going um yeah it might might be the final the final one i don't think Alistair Cooks had his face on the tv as much as he did last week since he was playing and he was camera's resuming in on him all the time i mean he's he i thought you know he handled it really well actually as you expect Alistair to do i mean him route of big mates in fact the one who's giving him more stick and jip than anybody was was route himself uh but you know it's you know proud man you set records and you want them to stay but i think well i know alistair acceptors totally inevitable that joe rutel set records it will never be beaten yeah i think that's the thing and the the next question easy catching such an that is for another day still some way from that uh overall test record stephan agus thank you very much indeed test match special will be on air on five sports extra bbc sounds from 10 25 on friday morning for the final offering of test match cricket this summer forecast is a little bit mixed but as always we'll keep on chatting away on test match special uh lots to talk about as well with that news that brenda mccollum has become the white ball and red ball coach or something we'll be taking up both roles uh in their entirety come the new year so lots to discuss and uh and to enjoy over the coming days stephan again thank you thank you to agus and don't forget to subscribe to the test match special podcast on bbc sounds this is the tms podcast from bbc radio five live [Music] hey i hear you think podcasts are all about true crime huh well wise guy the i-heart radio apps got all kinds of podcasts we got stuff you should know and stuff they don't want you to know we got bobby bones big boy and lu later we got spongebob binge pants and exotic erotic story time we got doe boys two dudes in the kitchen green eggs and dan hey we got elf quest we got podcast for everything on the i-heart radio app for free if you don't download that well that's not just a true crime, my 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