you're listening to the board game snobs podcast, a ridiculous podcast with ridiculous hosts that discuss ridiculous things, and any mention of board games is purely coincidental. And so, without further ado, and with a heavy dollop of shame and embarrassment on my part, I give you the board game snobs. And go! What a lovely time to have a podcast, but I sound like I've come back with like an English accent. You've got no rub off on another one, that's a bad turn. No, I have been due to association, you've Madonna'd yourself. Is that what that means? She went over there and lived in England and come back speaking with an accent. I feel, does that happen? Yeah, it does. Yeah, because wherever you're at, you hear it. I'm sure if I was around then, and Evan more, I would end up with this. I want to move to Australia then. I don't know. That's really scary. You just start saying that, just start that. To do it. Begin doing it slowly throughout your life now. Or just like random words, kind of like we discussed the other day, the Spanish people, you know, are referencing those, you know, and they'll be an American accent until they get to a word they know. Yeah, a ton of Israel. And so, I did see a funny comedian. He's like, you know, you don't really see that with like American words. He's like, they're not going, let this go over here to McDonald's and have a hamburger. Yeah, but, uh, Anyways, I just got back from DICE territory, this FYI. You're going to, you know, you're going to banter first. They'll do your banter thing. Well, I just want to talk. That's why. Because you're going to do a lot of talking because I wasn't there. You sound very upset. I know. I'm very happy you went. Well, I wish I had a dollar for every time I said your name. Oh, how many dollars would you have? I have a lot with you, really? Yes, because every time we were. Let's talk about how many times I was discussed. A lot because I think there was this thing of every time I'm about to play a game, we're doing something about it. Gobby doesn't like this or Gobby wouldn't like that. I said that a lot. And I also made all of your all of your dad jokes and puns. I went, yeah, I made them while for you at my own expense. I appreciate that. Camilla was not impressed in Z. We're not. Oh, look at your name dropping already. I'm going to drop. I literally have a few cards in front of me, and I am writing down names. That's all you got is a name. If I played a game with you, I wrote, if I could remember your name. The Who's Who? It was a lot of Who's. Okay, let's do the banter first, or I'm going to wax and wane about. And if I sound different, it is because I've picked up a lot of British words. So when you're wax, you're rising? Yes, when you wane is you're going down. Right. You're like wane's world. So is it like the Mr. Miyagi wax? Wax on wax off. Then you don't wax and you don't wane off? No, you don't wane off. You could wax. Wane off would be testing your knowledge of wane's world. Or John, or Bruce. There's lots of wanes, a wane off. Bruce Wayne? Or you have a lisp and can't pronounce your ours. Why are there so many wanes? Bruce Wayne, John Wayne, wanes world. I mean, okay, we've kind of narrowed it down to three. Those are good wanes. They cover a broad spectrum. They do. Bruce Wayne, the old cowboy. No, that's John. I'm sorry, John Wayne. Bruce Wayne's Batman. Right. How dare you? You feel like that's the way you've docked the Batman. I docked him. So, speaking of anti-heroes, Cade Anthony emailed. Oh, yeah, I got to do an email listener. Anti-hero episode. He's a few behind. We are too. I am too, Cade. Hello, you incorrigible snobs. I'm Cade. Wow, that's a strong way to come out. I'm Cade. He says he's a young listener in the first time, mailer. He means. I listened to your episode about anti-heroes and thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. As Jerry wa-- he's used it. As Jerry waxed about his disdain for standard bland heroes, I nodded along. As you should. But when the conversation got to Han Solo? Question mark, I found myself seething with the need to interrupt with my supremely correct opinion that Jerry is wrong. If I remember right, Jerry defined an anti-heroes a character who does good, contrary to audience expectation often in unconventional ways. Jerry applied this definition to Han Solo, which I think makes sense and I don't disagree. But I don't think this is an anti-hero. I would suggest that what Jerry is calling an anti-hero is really an unlikely hero. If I gave a definition for anti-hero, I would say a character who accomplishes heroic ends by immoral means. The archetype for the anti-hero, in my opinion, is the punisher from Marvel Comics. His heroic end is to stop organized crime. His means shoot all the bad guys until crime stops. I would love to hear you guys discuss my ideas here on the show and see if I sway Jerry's opinion. Love the show, love the banter, keep it up. Cade, that's a cool name. Cade is a cool name. I like that name, C-A-D-E. I would have went with a hard K. I would have too, but he didn't name himself. That's true. Unless he did. I had a friend that named himself. He was like 10 or 11, 12, and he got his mom remarried. And his stepdad adopted him. And they were like, "If I get adopted, changing my last name, can I change my first name, too?" And he did. What was his first name originally? It was awful. I'm not going to say it. I'll say it offline. But I have never heard this name ever in the history. Tell me now and I'll edit it out. No. Okay, you sure you're going to edit that? I will edit it out. This ain't going to be like all the things that you say you're going to edit out. No, I will definitely edit it out. Because if I docked this person that they had a previous name and I'm bringing this up, I'm dead naming somebody who literally- They literally- Oh, I forget that's a thing dead naming. Well, no, this was before dead naming. Oh, this is pre-dead naming. This is pre-dead naming. This is historical naming that we're digging up. Okay. You ready for it? Let me get a good edit point and edit point out. Okay, interesting. Yeah, it was. It's so interesting. I wish I could have heard it all. But hey, if they heard everything I said, my- We wouldn't be. Oh, we wouldn't. People like, that's one thing. Like, you think, oh, we need to be nice. We need to do this and that. And of course, we do keep it family friendly here on this show. Sometimes. But mainly, yeah. Like, I mean, people love people with super harsh opinions. Rush Limbaugh was like one of the biggest radio guys ever. Super, you know, strong opinions on everything because of political stuff. One of the biggest radio guys ever. So to go down the middle of stuff doesn't attract people. It does not. They like it. Milk toast. They say milk toast. I don't want that mean milk toast. I don't know what that means either. I know what it means, but I don't know where the term comes from. Like, if you have a very milk toast opinion, you're just down all that. Like, everybody kind of knows. Like, it's like a bland. Because if you're just trying to get along with everybody, then people want to listen to somebody and like, no, oh, my opinions align with them or maybe they hate listen. But my thoughts. We'll take those as well. My thoughts on milk have come up here lately. Milkman of the rainbow bovine. Do you not hear? I'll tell you about the cult. I started later. All right. So did you want to address Cade's unlikely hero versus anti-hero? Okay, Cade makes a good point. And I don't want to disparage Cade's opinion. I'll do that offline. Now, he says he found himself, if you remember that Jerry defined an anti-hero as a character who does good contrary to the audience expectation, often in unconventional ways. And that's a pretty good description of Han Solo, I would say. What's so unconventional about Han Solo though? But he was a smuggler. And he got thrust into this thing where he saved the princess, but he wasn't really saving the princess. He's just trying to get out of there. That's true. And then he got paid because it's for money. But then he came back. So it was unexpected that he would come back. So it wasn't unconventional what he did. He did what you would do in that situation. Well, yeah, but he did not mean to do rescue her. I'm sorry. I would think, well, go ahead with what you were saying before. Does this make sense? Don't disagree. Mission Deadpool again. But I don't think this is an anti-hero. I would suggest that what Jerry's calling an anti-hero is really an unlikely hero. This is where Cade puts me on the ropes. Because this unlikely hero thing is, yes. They're not looking to be a hero. Correct. If I gave a definition of anti-hero, I like his definition of anti-hero. Dominic Toretto. No, he's not, you're giving an example. Okay. That's not a definition. I'm, he's a, he's by his mere existence, a definition of anti-hero. I like, Cade says he's a young listener. First off, Cade, right. I'm just gonna, let's pause for a moment. All right. If Cade truly is a-- Does he have his parents permission? All right. If you're a young listener, when you say you-- You don't need it because we're family-friendly. We're family-friendly. But if you're a young listener, I'm thinking, when you say-- That's scary. When you think someone says you're a young listener, give me an age. I'm going to go and, you know, I hope it's with the cool and hip kids that are 16-7. That's what I was thinking. Because if you're 19 or 20, you're like, in that stage of like, you're not young. No. But Cade's since his writing is-- He's got, he's got his driver's license. And knows how to email with good, there's no L-O-L-O-M-G's. He's emailing. First of all, he's emailing and didn't message us on Twitter. And even ends it with his name at the-- I'm just going to applaud Cade. Cade, this is an excellent-- You know what? You've been brought up well, Cade. Yes. I wonder, he's an intellectual type. He emailed us. Now, he even put like a title? He even punctuated, right. This is not AI, I don't think. Because it's since-- Because it's like-- The title-- He titled his email, antihero episode, bold letters up top, then sent us a body. That's where you put your email in the body. Yes. And then signed it. Cade. All right, I'm just impressed. Just because a lot of young people don't-- I don't. I've stopped. Oh, yeah, you're awful at writing. I've stopped-- I can't read half the things you write. But when I do put forth effort, I'm a great writer, but I don't put forth any effort. No. I'm so humble I would bring that up. But a character who accomplished-- So his definition, "A character who accomplishes heroic ends by immoral means." Here's what I would say about Han Solo. He didn't do anything immoral. True. But this idea of accomplishing heroic ends by immoral means. Here's where I got you, Cade. Here's a problem I have with your-- Not not only do I have a problem with your definition, but all those who define hero and their actions. One of the characteristic traits of a hero is that they are not immoral. So they, by definition, could not be a hero if they do immoral acts, I would say. Maybe. Am I sounding right? Well, but you're going by definition with-- which isn't in the spirit of what he's talking about though. Yes, we understand, you know, a hero. You're going to be a paragon of justice. The only reason I know the term paragon is because of that video game. Mass Effect. Yeah. They got another one coming out. I'm super excited. Really? And they just released a mod for Mass Effect 3 that's going to make me download it and do another mod. And the-- I love mods. I love-- My grandma's name was mod. I love her too. Mod? I don't even know mod. Sounds like she changed things around her. Harold and mod was a name of like a big Oscar-winning show back in the day. Never seen it. Continue. I'm sorry. You got me thinking about grandma now. Well, we're talking about mods, but the Mass Effect-- Cry with my Oprah Casket, and I saw her holding that teddy bear that we gave to her at an elderly age. That was the first time I cried in public at the age of 12 when she died. Every episode turned into talking about a dead relative with you. I swear we got-- Well, you brought up mods. That one of us crying. OK. With one of us crying. So it's only me. It's only you. Anyway-- That was very harsh. That wasn't-- My Britishness would say-- I have to apologize. I kind of like I was very rough with you just now. That's the Daniel in you coming out. Who's a wonderful man. Continue. I kind of got to-- What were we talking about? You said that about a paragon immoral. Right. So nowadays, I think people fully accept with the Deadpool movies, the movies that have come out with the quote unquote. I don't even think people think this deeply about it. I do. He's an anti-hero. He's slicing and dicing all these bad guys in horrific ways that, you know, they're not necessary, but the reason for which he's doing it-- Oh, they're bad guys. I've done bad things. They deserve death. Is he doing anything immoral? Well, I mean murder is in itself immoral. So Captain America is immoral? Right. Really? If you go by the good book-- By Marvel standards, though. I'm going by the good book standards. By Marvel standards, I mean, I guess death is acceptable. There you go. I mean, even the governments send you off to murder people when you go to war. So Kate is causing a lot of-- It's difficult. Questions that is just-- All of a sudden, we're just-- Can you take the life of another human being? Is that moral? So essentially, Gabi hates the troops. And our email, if you'd like to send an email, board game snobs at gmail.com. I'm just saying that's true. First off, let me just say, I make-- I did not expect this email to go this route. I know. Comment about people playing like games. We get dozens of emails. I ask for some definitions. We get all jerk. Hey, jerk. Gabi's here. I hate the troops. No. And everybody-- And all of a sudden-- You're putting words in my mouth, sir. I love all people. Let me just go over the things Gabi hates. Women and the troops. I don't know where you started this women thing. Women stop it. Please listen to our votes for women episode. Suffering to the list. So all the-- OK. All right. No, I'm joking about all that. But no-- I'll edit all that out. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because I got to make a point here. And I made some good points there. You edit out all my good points. Cade. So here's what I'm saying. First off, I would argue that the relative-- Let's just all agree-- My grandma was a relative. Yes. But let's all agree that-- Well, I'd-- In terms of movies. Almost at her last thing. Should you not like-- I mean, would anybody like use my dead grandmother's full name somehow against me? It was weird. I'd make fun of it. My grandfather's name was Clarence. Clarence? Never met him. He died when my mother was 12. Well, listen, you basically give out all your password information. This is my favorite concert. What's your favorite concert? No, my-- I don't-- My things are completely unrelated to everything I love. There you go. Now you've given them the way again. Give it away, give it away, give it away, give it away. No, no, no, no. Mixed tape. All right, be on. Cramble. But my point being is-- Game, game, I called her. You've derailed me so much. Sorry, good. I just can't even remember what I was talking about. Cade, a character who accomplished heroic's end by a moral mate's. Let's agree that morality is relative to the universe for which-- That's very well said. Thank you. Fire. Cade, listen. When you hear this episode, I know it's been a long time since we responded to your email. But that's been my fault because I've been at the DICE territory with my dear friend Tom. Please write us again. Do another email. I don't care. Just do another email because you're one email here has brought up a long discussion. So let's say in the relative universe of Marvel, Captain America is as moral as they come. That's true. He has the-- He got to carry the hammer. It doesn't matter how many people he's killed. He got to carry-- Melon-- Milnor. Milnor. Mil-- I used to know it. I'm not a male nor. Milnor, more-- I don't do Marvel, which I do do Marvel now. Milneer. Milne. Muralneer. It's M-J-O-L-N-I-R. The J is-- A Y. OK. So in his universe, he's moral. But is-- I would argue Deadpool from what I've seen so far, which I haven't seen anything in Deadpool. But from what I understand, he's more of a unlikely hero than he is an anti-hero. Because I don't know if he does anything immoral. Besides the fact-- well, I'll take that back. He was a mercenary, wasn't he? Technically? The mark with the mouth. That might be the line. Which he didn't have in the original Wolverine. Correct. So let's just draw a line and discuss Han Solo, because that was the topic of conversation. I would say that Han Solo is correct. He was an unlikely hero, too. Because he got put in this position by taking a job. He was not meant to be the hero. It was unlikely that he would be the hero. I think when you do those Venn diagrams of unlikely and anti-hero, that there's this thing that the anti-hero are typically people for which are doing immoral things. For which he was, he was a smuggler. That was like the big deal. He was a criminal. So he was the anti-hero and then the unlikely hero. But I think that the overarching situation was, he was this anti-hero because he was doing immoral things. Does that make sense? Yes. And that's the same thing as even Dominic Tareto, which I'm mentioning on every podcast I can. They were thieves. And now they're no longer. And now they're superheroes for the government. So, but the thing with Kate here, character who accomplished heroic ends by an immoral means, Han Solo, technically, in their universe, a relatively realistic universe here of Star Wars, their morality, he did nothing immoral. It would have been immoral for say, like-- Smuggling is immoral. Yes. But the rebels were technically all immoral because they were rebelling. They were breaking the laws of the-- Actually, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, unethical. Empirial government. I've crossed, I've been crossing the line of ethics and morals. Well, that's maybe true because, I mean, it depends on the government. The imperial government, the empire. So, go ahead and name the list of governments you don't like. We'll just get that out of the way. No, no, I thought you'd-- Oh, anyways. Well, the imperials were clearly fashioned after the Nazis. Maybe. You don't know that. I believe so. Your Hugo Boss outfits. But so, I would say that if-- Which makes an excellent clone, but-- You smell a fascism. Well, thank you. We caught fascism by Hugo Boss. That's what lied of-- Of, of, of, uh, Cologne that would not sell well over-- We also have, we have cabbage by Stalin. I don't think we communism by Stalin. It smells like cabbage. I don't know why I said that. Oh. It was, I thought it was funnier in my head. That's good. Anyways, but if, say for instance, if Han Solo was doing something immoral, for a heroic means, it would be like he was selling spice, something that was obviously completely in their world bad. Like, even Boa Fett was like, I'll hunt people down. And then it goes to-- You are talking about ethics, because then it goes down to the people that still bred to feed their starving families. So, here's my definition back to you and the answer to your question, Cade. I would still push back against you in saying that, yes, Han Solo is the anti-hero, meaning that he is not the expected hero, because he has done what I would call immoral things or some things of that nature in that universe. An unlikely hero would be somebody who just steps up that you wouldn't expect. For instance, like a farm boy that lives on Tatooine, that blows up the Death Star. Luke was an unlikely hero. Thressed into that position. Exactly. And so, there is the Venn diagram where they cross over and there are the anti-unlikely heroes of people who don't want to do-- I'm not gonna do this thing. And there they go. So, anyways, great, great. The archetype of the anti-hero in my opinion is a punisher from Marvel. The heroic end is to stop organized crime. His means is to shoot all the bad guys until crime stops. I would say that the punisher, what little I know about him, but that's the dude off, that's what's his-- Where's the skull on the shirt? Yeah, yeah, Bert. Yeah, Bert, Bert. Well, what's his last name, Bertha Thraw? Ernie! Bertha Thraw. He's got weird names. John Bernthal. Yeah, right. He's got like the affliction shirts. I would say that he is-- Bert. Bert. Bernthal, Bernthal. Something like that. Oh, what I did to see Berntner, and he just go off with some guns. I would say that he's obviously not an unlikely hero. I don't know if I would call him even an anti-hero because he is doing horrifying moral and ethical things to accomplish a heroic end. I think that would be more of what, again, to steal your mass effect, renegade. A renegade is somebody who, by definitions, is after some sort of justice or something outside the norms. So we have an unlikely hero, anti-hero, and a renegade. And a renegade can basically be a hero who has decided to step outside the bounds and do what needs to be done. All our mass effects, you can be a renegade the whole way through and save the universe. Renegade sounds a lot like, what are they called, Batman? Vigilante. Vigilante. Vigilante, I'm sorry. Vigilante Justice. Vigilante Justice. So there you go. Okay. And it's okay. Good. Really, yes. Okay, however-- You have swayed my opinion a little bit. Okay. Because of the unlikely hero and anti-hero, I see how easily you can sway into that unlikely hero. So the fact that he mentioned this episode, which was several episodes ago, I'm sure he'll get to this one in about six months. And then I will respond back this time next year. Well, all right. Well, that was our banter section, email section. Jerry went to Dice Tower Street in case you didn't know, and he's been posting it on Facebook. And he has a lot to say. I do, yes. You're gathering your thoughts even now. Well, no, I feel like I am looking over the things that I wish I posted, so I'll make sure I don't. But you feel like you should-- Let me, let me, what do you think I should do? I feel like you should probably like, you should ask me questions. Okay. So that's what I was supposed to say. Okay. Game of the con or whatever. I don't know, is it a con? Is it a retreat? What is a retreat? A con or a convention? Okay. Just off top of my head, I'm winging this here. FYI, I would say a con is like, a more organized, sponsored type thing. There's exhibits and there's a lot more activities. It's a convention, like your typical type of convention. There's things going on. Different presenters, things of this nature. A retreat is more subtle, less people, less in terms of activity, something very specific. And I would say that that describes the retreat very well, the DICE Tower retreat, because it's all like 300 people. And it's held in this like in one real, one room, one big convention room with the DICE Tower library. It's very quiet and calm. Retreat, there's several definitions that was moved back withdrawal. Correct, French. Change one's decisions, plans, or attitudes as a result of criticism from others. Which strangely has, this has caused me to retreat back on my opinion of the DICE Tower. An active moving backer withdrawing. An active changing was, okay, so it's a signal for a military to withdraw. But here's the one I believe that applies to this specific scenario. Withdraw to a quiet or secluded place. This is exactly, that is a good. Okay, so it is a retreat, DICE Tower retreat. So, okay, so you ask me questions. This is going to test your ability as a host. So I have cards, I've prepared for this. This is like the only episode that I've ever prepared for. Okay, so the first cliche, one game, game of the retreat. What were you taking a back by? Arcs, that's a hotness as well. That is the hotness by Cole Worley. Arcs was definitely the one game I wanted to play. And shockingly, it was like the first official game of the column that I played. Did it feel like other games you could relate it to? What made it so special? Well, it's also a two-part question. Two-part question. So, Arcs, the mechanism that you use to kind of activate your, it's a space game, of course. You move your ships and build and attack. You're typical, I don't want to call it a 4X game. Because, I mean, you see the board not really exploring for the most part on the base game. But you're moving and fighting and placing your buildings out, basically. The thing, the main mechanism, is this a simple card play. And it's very similar to like a trick-taking game or spades or hearts where one person leads with a suit. And you either follow it or you copy it or you don't. It's very intuitive what you do. Because it's just, here's your hand of cards. You're going to play through them. Your cards have very Carcassonne, not Carcassonne. Obviously, Carcassonne and Corn Cordia, you get that. You should have not booed that because you would have known that was a mistake because Carcassonne has no cards. That's not like Carcassonne, I'm a booed Carcassonne. Corn Cordia has the rules on each card. Like, here's what you're about to do. Arc says the same thing. And then above it, it has its little dots that is how many actions you can take. One, two, three, four, five, whatever. And then above it, just the power of the card. And then you just play the card. And everybody goes around playing the card. And if you can beat that card by playing the same suit with a higher number, you're now the first player. And there is no game quite like Arcks where the first player is the important thing. You will fight tooth and nail to be first player. You will give up an entire turn to become first player. It is that important. And that mechanism of every chapter, they call it, you get six new cards, you look at them and play them and fighting for that first place. While utilizing your actions efficiently and maybe copying somebody's card, burning a card to copy their card, that's it. That's the main mechanism of the game. It's very, that alone is very light. But then you connect this space battle area in influence control resource. And all these other fascinating little mechanics that are so thematically well tied into the game makes this game. I was speaking with somebody else at the con. And I said, I think this might be Cold Warly's best game. I think this is Cold Warly's best game. I think this is his best game. Just the best game. I know there's all these other builds. You really like John Company. John Company's good. John Company gets incredibly complicated. John Company, when you're NPC and moving things around, this game here is what I like to see. I like to see season designers do. They take a game and they go, I'm going to distill down the simple mechanics and attach it to this somewhat thematic yet mildly complex part. And he could have thrown in so much more stuff to make this game. Twilight. People keep saying like Twilight and Perium type game. It's not as long as Twilight and Perium obviously. There's not a lot of negotiating. There's not a lot of, there's not really any going to negotiation. It's much lighter than what you would think. But people have this idea of it's Cold Warly. So thus it must be difficult to learn. No, I played this also. This game was probably my most played game at the con. I repeatedly taught and played this over and over and over. So how long is the game? The second game I played was over quite quickly. I would say the game itself was over and almost a little over an hour. Oh wow. The other games I played were about two hours long. And this was with both of those were four player games. And so it was, yeah, it's very interesting for what it is. It has the same beautiful artwork that Cole typically does from like the oath type or root type thing. We have little animals and space things. And yeah, it's just, ARX was shocked me by how much I liked it. Because Cole either hits or miss with me. Either I love this game and I think it's amazing or it's like blah. Or I guess roots the only exception. I understand root. I see why people like root. It's just not for me. But like oath, I didn't like it. But yeah, there's other games of his that kind of do that too. But ARX is it. And I truly feel like this is his, he nailed it. This is his best game. So far. So far? He may blow your mind away at a later day. I think that's implied by my statement. Yeah, so far. So at this retreat, how many games did you play? I was adding that up. And do you want complete individual new games? Well, yes. Or not just new games, but just games in total. No games in total. Well, I've played some games multiple times. And just off just my quick list here. I wrote down 15 games really fast. Because and I know that's not correct. Because I know there's more than 16 as we're sitting here talking. 17. And some of those you played multiple times. Yeah. And so I can say without, I can say 18. Yeah. Yeah, 19. Yeah. So I'm. So you said you. Yeah. I would say I'd play at 25 games at least. That's pretty good for yeah. I think the first BGE was probably the one we attended where we played the most. And I think we played like 30 something games. I counted. That's pretty good. Since then we have never played that many games that BGG has since. Right. I don't know why that is. I don't think maybe our focus has changed somewhat. But that's pretty good amount. So out of those, how many were new to you? A lot. The only games that I really played that were old was that alien escaped from aliens in outer space game. Is that is that the right name for it? That's the OG game where you have the little markers. We had that. Do you still have that? I still got it. I taught Hana Kanoji. Played that. That's an older game that we played before. Path of Civilizations was a game I demoed at BGG. Retop Modern Art. Technically, I had played White Castle before, but I never felt like I did it right. I don't say you played it again. But I played with Evan. That's like his jam. I taught Godfather and Yokohama and played those. Did those plays of Godfather and Yokohama reaffirm your already had opinions? Yes. Yes. Yes. They did not disappoint. So then let me go back to White Castle. That was a game you said you want to play again. You did enjoy the first time. How do you feel now? I understand it now. I do not. I don't. Still don't like it. Still don't like it. But here's, so there's things about it I like. Number one, the iconology, what's going on the theme. I have no idea. It's just taking workers and putting them here. And I think it's because the idea of the game, you just make nine moves. You're just taking a dice. It's dice placement. You know how I feel about dice placement. And when you place it out, you're looking to make the absolute best combo. What was interesting about this game, and I did it a couple of times when I've replayed it, was I saw this thing that made me go, okay, I'm going to put this dice here. It's going to let me take this action, which is going to give me this thing, which I automatically spin to place this worker, which will give me another action, which will let me run these cards on my tableau, which will give me this. And it's this cascading waterfall of all these things. And the individual that I was playing with, who was new to the game, saw that immediately and did it multiple times throughout the game where he went, "If I do this, I can do this, and this, and this, and then I can take this." And you do this massive turn. And then the next turn, it's like, "I place a die, I get this one thing." That's it. And so there are times where you just don't, there's not a combo out there, or there is a combo out there, and people sit and stare to try to find said combo, because it's there somewhere. And so there's a lot of this staring at the board going, "Well, I can do this, and I got to pay for that, and I just didn't like it. I don't like particularly the theme. The iconology confuses me because it's not intuitive." Or iconography. I don't like the back and forth. I see why people like it though, and I see where it is a good game, in terms of what it does. What was that game that came out that we had way back in the day that was the guy worked on it for 10 years, guilds of London. Remember guilds of London with the tiles, all these weird icons and stuff, and it was like, "You move here and you do this." It's like that, because I remember we played that game and hated it, and then one time we played it again with Enrique, and Enrique was like, "Oh, go here, go here, go here." He figured it out. White castles along that line. If you like this comboing, constant cascade, and it's a small game-- - Which people do. - And it's just nine moves. It is nice placement, and as you know, I don't like that. White castle is it's... If I had to actually review it, it would be one of those games I'd go, "This isn't for me. I don't like it. Here's the reason why I don't like it. I get no thematic feel from what I'm doing. I don't even really understand what I'm doing. I don't like to do this thing, and then do this thing, and do this thing. The icons don't make sense to me. The board is a mess to me. I don't like it, but if you're the type of person that goes, "I like making combos," combo number five. - With a slider. - This is it. - White house. - This is your thing. Yeah. I'm glad you grabbed this. You got that. You got my joke. See, we're back, man. We're back, baby. Well, that's another word I added into my-- - Baby. - My legs got baby. So first off-- - Not baby. - Not baby. - Baby. - Baby. It's like Dan Hughes says it along in podcast. - Baby. - It's along, baby. That gets me. That's automatically funny to me. Evan does that in real life a lot too. It's like a family. It's like a Hughes family crest. - It's a Hughes tree. - A Hughes family crest is like of a baby that's somehow frugal. - That's a baby. - That's not gonna pay those prices. I'm not paying those prices. Baby. And they say that it's very funny. - Did Dan's frugality show in your rooming with him? - No, well, he did the wise thing. But like I do, when I go to BGG, I'm off and bringin' food. I'm not gonna go out and eat. We're across the street there at the dice territory. There was a CVS. So he went and they bought a bunch of ramen, top ramen, the big bowls, which I warned against the amount-- - I like big bowls. - That cannot lie. - Of salt that's in there. Like 2,000 milligrams. - Oh, it's about sodium. - And Evan ate one of said bowls. And it was like, I can't get-- I keep drinkin' water. I was like, yes. You're going to have to. You've ate way too-- This is preserved. It's rough. They have that much salt. But no, no, no, it wasn't. There wasn't a-- I mean, everybody's Florida. Price is a horrible. - That's true. - It's Orlando. Everything costs forever. Way too much money. Anyways. - So was there a game that you had no clue about that you liked? - No clue about and I liked. Well, let's see. I know mixed tape. What things that I just happened to play. - Right. You know, I've never heard of this game. I really liked it. - Ooh. The gang. This is the co-op. That should tell you something right there. - Mm-hmm. - 'Cause I don't-- - You hate co-ops. Much like nice placement. - Hate co-ops. Name a co-op that I play with. But besides that, we just did the airline game. That's the only game. - The one where you're crashed on the island. Robinson Crusad. - And I play that solo 'cause I can't stand playing with other people. - Right. - I haven't got to play island and the Spirit Island yet. But I'll probably play that solo too. The gang you can't play solo, you cannot because it's Texas Hold 'em co-op. Which is super weird. 'Cause the theme of this game is literally, you're playing Texas Hold 'em to break into a safe. To a bank like Robba Casino. So the theme's stupid. - Mm-hmm. - It's a cosmos game if my memory serves. And all that you're doing is playing your typical Texas Hold 'em. But you're also playing like the mind. You're not supposed to talk. And so everybody gets dealt your two cards. Your pocket cards. And then there's these poker chips out here that are just numbered one through six. And if you think you've got the worst hand, you take the one. And if you think you have the best hand, you take the six. And somewhere in the middle, everybody's taking cards and looking at each other and trying to figure out where he had each other have. And then the flop comes out, the turn, the river. And each time you're taking another covered poker chip that's like indicates what when you took it. Like the white is the beginning of the game. Yellow, orange. And then finally, the poker chip that counts is the red one that you take last. And all you're trying to do is secretly, quietly, without talking about your hand, take this poker chip and indicate to the other people, "Yes, I know statistically that my hand is the best." And the other one taking them, "Well, I'm taking the one 'cause I know statistically my hand's the worst." And then everybody reveals their hands and you have to be in order. You literally have to go from worst all the way up to the best. This sounds not impossible when it was described to me. But we've won the game. And then we'll play another game, we lost it. But it's that thing of, nigh, we play a mulligan round at first to see where everybody's at. Who's a poker player, who's not? Do they understand that, you know, a pair of fives is not going to get you everywhere when there's an obvious straight showing. And it comes down to when you have, the excitement comes from three things. One, when you've got two players that think they have the best hand. Two, when you have two players that think if they have the worst hand and three, the thing that happens just about every round is the middle. Where are you at? Like, my hand is bad, but is yours that bad? I don't know. And you see from people's poker chips. So I can typically go, this guy has a pocket pair 'cause he took the five right off the bat. And then by the time we got to the, to the, in the last card, he's like taking a one. Okay, so I can, into it from that, what's probably out there. This guy's chasing a straight and he didn't get it. I can look at your poker chips and see, okay, you were, you were after a straight there. It's that thing of, they were taking a one, they were taking a one, they were taking a one also and they took a five. It's like, what in the world made you think that you jumped up there? What was that last card to you? Oh, that was probably a flush. You got a flush, y'all. That's the game. And if anybody who's a poker player, if this is making your brain click, this is a good game. And I played it with a lot of people who didn't play poker, who really liked it. I played it with some people who really liked poker and they liked it. Jason Matthews, who was a, we were on his, the first YouTube video we ever did. - Right. - With on the meeple mentor. - Meeple mentor. - He's no longer part of the meeple mentor. - He is not. - I don't know if he was the meeple or the mentor. I think he was the meeple because the other guy is still mentoring. - He is. - Because he did an explanation of salt or sand that I really liked, play through. - Does this game teach you Texas Hold 'em? - It just has the cards and says here's the right. - This is what they're the same. - And here's how you play Texas Hold 'em. - Okay. - But if you don't know how to play Texas Hold 'em by now, what are you doing with your life? - Yeah. Okay, well, interesting. - So never heard of it caught me way off guard. It's a cosmos game. It looks really good. It's got poker chips in it. So of course everybody will love it because it's got poker chips. - Better than the mind, obviously. - Better than splendor. The one thing about the mind is everybody argued about, this is not a game, this is not a game. Somebody went and said, well, let's play the mind, but let's have a game. What game can we attach to this? Oh, let's just play Texas Hold 'em and not talk to each other. Well, that's what everybody does when they play Texas Hold 'em. Well, let's make it a co-op. Well, how do you make that into a game? Let's make them guess where they're at, if they're handwritten. - Did y'all legitimately not talk or was there a little bit of talking? - Everybody talked, but they didn't give any good information. So like, that was the rule. Like when they were playing it and it was being taught, I grabbed the rule book real fast and realized, you're just supposed to take the poker chips and just look at each other. - Incomplete silence. - So it's like finding the-- - Facial gestures. - Like telling what people are doing. But really, it's the poker chips, you can kind of tell. But nobody else knows how to read people's bluffs. So there was this, but nobody said anything that was really good. I've got the best, no, I have the best, no, I really have the best. It's like-- - But you wouldn't want to be bluffing in this game. You said read people's bluffs. - No, not read their bluffs, but read their face on me. - Read their body, I guess you can read the body language. - You're not really doing that either. You're just looking at the poker chip and you can kind of tell. I can tell because I played poker. This game would be horrific if you're playing with a bunch of people who've never played poker that go, I've got a two and a five. And Evan flopped like a straight flush. And so it's like saying things of that nature. So yeah, it was a really good game. - I'd like to check it out. Is it available to purchase? - It's available for pre-order, I just checked. It's relatively cheap, like 15 bucks or something like that. Was there a game you hated? - Oh, that's a good question, actually. In terms of hating, everything was fine. If there was a game that I played that I was kind of like, this is not my jam, really. I replayed that path of civilization that I played at BGG. I think we talked to me and Enrique did an episode of "Think and Talked About It." It was like seven wonders fixed. I enjoyed it, I played it again. And as I was playing it, I thought to myself, this is for set people who play seven wonders and they needed more gamey thing. What got me about it was there's too much stuff on the board. It's everywhere. And it's intuitive and makes sense. But the moral play, I'm like, I'm glad I didn't buy this because this is something that I would straight up be like, what I get out of it is not. But even then, it's still people who like it. If you like seven wonders, you should play path. The civilization is a step up. It gives you more of the same. But actually, you should play one for world, which I also played. But yeah, it was fine. The other game that I played that I really, there was actually two more. I played that Marvel remix, which is the card game, where you just have a bunch of Marvel cards and they give you like six or seven of them. There's heroes and allies and villains and all this stuff. And you're supposed to take a card off the deck or take a card from the pool and then discard a card. It's all you're doing. And so just fill your hand. And when there's 10 cards out in the middle, the game stops and everybody lays out their hand and see if they made this synergy. And you don't win unless you have like a hero and an ally or something like that. And you have to have a villain and then everything else is just their equipment and stuff. So it's like, oh, I'm Iron Man and my ally will be the dude that got fired. Don Tittle, but now it was, was, was not, no, Don Tittle got hired. He was the other guy. He that Howard, Howard Lawrence Howard, because he invented a new man, Howard Terrence Howard, he invented a new math, just like me and man other people. And then it's like, oh, so I've got this dude and I've got all these other things. And I score this many points because these things synergize. The first round we played, I didn't, I could never pick up an ally. I had an ally and they would come out there. So my hand didn't score. The next hand I played, I'm playing with like five or six people that love this and all have played it. I, I blew them all away. I got like a hundred points. And it was like, because I just went, oh, Black Panther. So I'm just going to get this Black Panther stuff and this, and it just people kept, I just kept well, condying it forever. It was fine, but when a game goes, this guy who has no interest in the theme, doesn't understand it. And really, it's just this simple can blow you away at it. See, I agree with that. I kind of go, I wish there was more of a, I'll talk about it later, that there are card games. On part two. On part two. There are card games that are maybe coming to Kickstarter in November that do things of that nature. And so just putting something down and picking it up. It's like, oh, I'll cut and you choose type thing. And here's this and you have to think about this and this. Whereas all I'm was doing was hoping that Black Panther stuff come out. Yeah, I don't like that. And I did not, I, the other poor game, which was by Dr. Stephen Finn, the guy who did Biblios, which I also played and people really didn't act like they liked it, but that's Bruce's problem. Biblios is a wonderful game. Alipuharis, A-L-P-U-J-A, this is J-O-Y, A-L-P-U-J-A-R-A-S. It's fruit. Played this with my dear friend, Tom, who invited me to this retreat. Thank you, Tom. I think he works for the Dastar. Or is the Dastar. I'm fine with that. He is. He is the Dastar. He is, he, he, he's, he towers. He's tall. He's a big guy. He's a big guy. I love big guys. And you cannot lie. Alipuharis. Alipuharis is a little thing where you have the, the track where you can go as far as you want, but you can't go backwards. And it, that's the round the board. Francis Drake. Yeah. Sort of kind of, except there's no reason to go far. And that's the one thing that really- Ta-ka. What's a Ta-kaito? That was the big one. Yeah. And the board is this farming. And so you're like moving your guy, put another guy out here, and get a fruit of some sort. Get a lemon. Get this grapes. Put it in your supply. Go this spot. Fulfill and order. There's more to it than that, because there's obviously going to the town. And there, there, there, it's a, it's a very quaint game. There's too much color to it. It was very bright and vibrant, kind of sort of, but also dull. So it's like they use the- Okay. Okay. So imagine, imagine, you know what? When people turn up the saturation on something. Yes. Imagine castles of Burgundy, they cranked up the saturation. And it's green and yellow and red and green and purple. And but there's also these brown taupe colors. The artwork was kind of like that. The game is, the game is interesting of like, I'm going to move here. I'm going to put my farmer here. I'm going to get this. And I'm going to, it was just fine. There's no really game that I played. I was like, oh, this is awful. I'm going to get out of here. But Alipaharis was one that's coming out. Watch Tom's review of it. Tom was, I think we played it so he could review it. Speaking of that, the game I remember us playing in BGG that I specifically made up a false reason for me to leave the table. Because I hated it. Coopers Island? Coopers Island. Yes. I, that game brought something out to me that I, it took me a while. I thought about it for a long time. Because you made the excuse and got up, which I wanted, I was, I literally thought about, thought about going to the bathroom, just not coming back. Endless leaving and Rick game being like, but I thought I'd see these people again. But the gentleman that was there, that was playing the game with us, this is what happened. I had to root this out of my heart. This was a bad thing. Okay. He was enjoying it. And the more he enjoyed it, the more I despised him. I thought, you don't even. And the guy, the guy that was teaching it was like, put this little Tetris piece right here, but don't cover that up, but cover this up. And then you go, I'm sitting there going, just take this. And this guy's like, oh, he's nodding along, as K does when I talk, and he agrees with me. And this guy's just like, oh, enjoy it. I'm like, no, you're not. This is stupid. This is stupid. This, why are you liking this? Why are you acting like, I just want to go, we can all just go, let's stop. Let's all just get up and stop. Why are we doing this? Let's agree to, let's agree to stop. This is all agree to stop. But I, if I would have done that, the Ricky literally fell asleep during that game. Yes, he did. He, he, he, he dozed off during Cooper's Island. This is a capstone stone game, isn't it? Uh huh. And this guy sitting here just, and I thought, I can't see it. That no one talks about, of course. You know what, okay, yeah. Real quick. So we're, we're going to end this episode here momentarily. And Jerry, in the next part two of Jerry's, we're going to do part two of Jerry's Dice Tower retreat. Next week on the board game snobs. Other game is played. Jerry learns British curse words. People, Jerry got to meet. Fans such as Bruce and Chrissy. And the PES. Dallas, this sauce. What? You're, I made you a mixtape review. Oh, I'm going to do that then. You're going to do it. That was literally the last game I played. You're going to do it on part two. I'm going to do it on part two. I did play. Unless we're going to do a part three. Well, probably we're going to have to do a part three. Okay. Well, we may, whatever then. We should probably, we should probably do the mixtape last. Okay. So I can collect my thoughts. Plus it'll be, as it says, we only release one thing a week. It'll be closer to their Kickstarter. I think their Kickstarter is coming. Do we, is this, am I? I just know November is all I know. Okay, it is November. I'm not saying. Do I know this? Is this, is this public knowledge or is this inside? I think it's, I think it's, they may have mentioned it on their podcast. I hope that because we just added. A half a dozen times. We've docked it. We have docked their Kickstarter date. I'm sure they want people to know when they're coming out. Cade name was spelled with a C instead of K. Docs Cade. We've docked a lot of people this episode. Well, let's stop doxing and start. I have to edit. So we'll start editing. Oh yeah. Because this is coming out like tomorrow. That'd be all right. Okay. Might be late. All right. Let's go and do it for this episode. Stay tuned next week for the rest of Jerry's Dice Tower retreat. A voyage. Until then, I'm Guyby. This is Jerry. Bye-bye. Thank you for tolerating this episode of the Board Game Snobs. Stay classy. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]
