- Hey everybody, welcome to the Muckering Podcast in Jersey. It's sex time. Here's Nick Hausman. Nick, how are you doing your Labor Day, buddy? - I'm doing. I mean, still waiting for an invite to barbecue, but it would be a nice day, I suppose. It was the weather is nice. - I mean, what a privilege to be invited to barbecue this. - I'm the person that you don't wait for the invitation, you just go. - I do my own thing. I don't really go to them. I'm a lone wolf, Nick. - You know, that's right. If you're not gonna invite it, you just might make your own party, that's right. - I make my own. I'm gonna drink a beer, I'm gonna grill out. I'm really happy. Also, by the way, solidarity to the workers now and forever. That's what Labor Day is actually about. Everybody, we got a packed show today. We have Fred Wellman, a veteran political strategist and host of On Democracy on Midas Touch and on the line with vote vets coming on later. You're gonna wanna hear this interview. We're gonna talk about Arlington. We're going to talk about fascism within the military and also authoritarianism writ large. But also, but a really fascinating bit about how Trump and his attraction, how military members get attracted to him, which I thought was a huge thing I hadn't heard much before. - Yeah, yeah, it's really fascinating. And by the way, like runs completely parallel with like historical trends, which I always find fascinating. Before we get to our main stories and before we get to that interview, Erminder, go to patreon.com/mycrickpodcast. Not only are you going to get the Weekender episode on Friday, which by the way, the people who aren't patrons, you're already listening to the preview. We see the numbers come on in. The water is fine. You will not regret it, but Nick. Next week, supposedly, allegedly, there is going to be a debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. That is on September 10th. And we are going to have exclusive coverage and analysis of it. If you want to hear that, and believe me, you're going to get more out of that than you are with the talking head panels. Nick, real fast, those talking head panels, I don't know how it's possible. They're getting worse. - You know, I don't like to speak ill of anybody behind their back here. - I do. - Okay. - They're getting worse. - They're sub-optimal. Yes, they are. - They're sub-optimal. And by the way, after the first interview with Kamala Harris and Tim Walts last week with Danabash, like it was that, that quoting quote analysis was embarrassing. It's all bad. - You're going to want to go over patreon.com/microagpodcast in order to hear what me and Nick have to say about this thing. You agree, correct Nick? I assume we're on the same page. - We are on the same page, same sentence, and everything. - All right. You know, we're going to have a little bit of fun with Fred in a minute, but we have to talk about something that really sucks, Nick. Friend of your family, Hirsch Goldberg, Poland, who has been held hostage since October 7th. It was found dead this weekend on Sunday, along with five other hostages. This is a really, really tragic thing. We need to get into the larger political context of it. But Nick, I wanted to give you an opportunity before we got going to talk a little bit about this and also my condolences. I assume I can go ahead and speak for our audience and listeners and they are sending their condolences as well. - Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's, you know, Hirsch's mom was someone I grew up with my sister's best friend. And a kid who I knew before they moved to Israel. And it's been a roller coaster because, obviously, he had been wounded severely. And the conventional thinking was that he wasn't alive for a long time and then appeared in a video in April, which was the most amazing version of Hope you can imagine, which then put the pressure on everybody to Ananyahu and Biden to somehow get a ceasefire deal done and get the hostages out of there. And, you know, there was an encouragement to Rafa, which if you might remember back in the spring, you know, Biden had said we would not send more arms if they went into Rafa. And that was completely hollow promise, I suppose, because they went in. And, you know, the details now are they were having fighting above ground. Hirsch and the other five hostages were underground. And I suppose as they got close enough for whatever happened, they murdered them and then ran away at the tunnels underneath the ground. And they found them within the day or so, you know, to think that they were getting as close as they were, supposedly to some sort of ceasefire and to get who were alive out. And then that this happens, it's just devastating. And I don't even know what to make of it besides, you know, they just have to, somebody has to be able to step in here and have the balls to force them or stop them or get Ananyahuatl there. Something has to change because there's nothing gained at this point, right? Strategically, war-wise, as far as I could tell, I can't see how anything is gonna change with what they're doing now. - Yeah, and I appreciate you putting it that way. And I think that that is accurate. And to go off of that story and again, like what an absolutely miserable thing. Because I wanna remind people, we're taping this on Labor Day, you'll hear this on Tuesday. I think it's important for us to remember that whenever one nation goes to war with another nation, whenever there is violence, whenever any of these things happen, we get so stuck on who, you know, what state is doing what to what people. And one of the things that we forget, whether it's Israel or Hamas, we forget that innocent people are being caught in the middle of it. That living, breathing people with families and hopes and dreams, that those people throughout history are being caught between larger forces. And we lose track of that. And I think it's really important to remember that as it happens that this should not have happened. Hirsch should not have been in this position. This like violence and the atrocities that have taken place should not have happened. And Nick, I wanna talk about this larger story today on the Monday in which we're talking. There has been a general strike in Israel. Thousands of people have walked off their jobs, including in education, transport, hospitals, all kinds of industries. The general organization of workers in Israel did this in order to try and put pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu and his cadre of cronies in power to try and disrupt. This is something that happens throughout history when people feel like they don't have democratic levers to make this happen. Of course, we haven't had an election there. I have to assume at this point, Netanyahu and his coalition would suffer. After eight hours of general strike, the courts of Israel ruled that they must go back to work saying that this was a political strike and not an economic strike. There's something to talk about there. But I am very heartened to see the general organization of workers take this step. This is one of the things that needs to happen. And it's also something that we need to take a look at as Americans and realize that this might very well be the type of action that we are eventually going to have to take ourselves. - I absolutely agree. In these economic times, it's like the only way to get the message to cross is to hurt the economy, basically. And it turns out there is the law that you can't have a strike based on political purposes. So the courts are doing what the books say and the law books, but it wouldn't prevent individuals from just doing this now that they've gotten organized with using the largest labor union in Israel by far. So they've kind of got it all in place now and it would be easier for them to then, as individuals collectively strike or something like that, which I think would probably happen sooner than later. The majority of Israelis want the end of this thing. I think what you realize though is that you could get rid of Hamas. So let's just pretend that you got rid of Hamas. Well, whatever replaces Hamas ends up sort of probably being very similar to Hamas as it is anyway. So that was never probably going to be the solution per se. The only thing they're gonna get out of this is some sort of strange notion of they dismantled enough of the war making capability of Hamas that they won't have another one of these for a while, right? Not never, but for a while. And it's the same kind of thinking that you probably see in the Defense Department when they say, well, we went into Iraq after 9/11 and we haven't had another 9/11. So that must have worked, right? Like that's the same thinking and that doesn't solve anything, that's the problem. It doesn't get any better solution. It doesn't help people's lives. It doesn't actually in the long term create a situation where we won't have another one of these things. And that's what I think so disappointing about all this is that that's not being paid attention to in this notion of, well, if we don't punish them and we give them back the hostages they want, we give them the hostages they want in the ceasefire, well, then they're just gonna do another one of these, you know, attacks every so often. And, you know, that is their thinking, whether or not it's right or not. And so what I will say is that if that is their thinking, then this cycle will never end. - Well, that's exactly right. And, you know, I wanna say something. I mean, I rolled my eyes so, so bad that like they, I gave myself a short migraine with this whole, this is political and not economic. Make no mistake about it. Politics and economics are the exact same thing. They work together, they traffic together, they influence each other. And by the way, in this modern era, economics runs basically everything. What you just brought up, I think, is really important through that context. Like there is no plan to end this. And the reason there is no plan to end this is because the only aim that there is right now is one, personal, which is that Benjamin Netanyahu understands that if he loses power, much like a Donald Trump, he has legal repercussions that he is going to face. Two, the coalition that is currently in charge of the Israeli government, this is all they've got. That's all that they have. This is literally the only reason that they have power and that they can hold on to power. Three, Nick, you brought up the idea like can you kill an idea? No, you can't, that is impossible. But it is sort of a smokescreen that makes actions at least swallowable for some people. I mean, in America that is in a post 9/11 world, we understand this. Like when you go into Iraq, you're not going into Iraq because Iraq attacked America, you're going into Iraq because it is one of the last remaining places to gain certain resources, wink, wink, wink, and also open capitalistic market and corporate investment. So what do we see, Nick? We don't have a plan for peace. We have a plan for post-war, which is how are we going to use these resources and land and what are we going to do? There's no idea about what to do with this because we have a coalition right now that its survival is dependent on this. And by the way, all of their political appeal and all of the plans that they have are economic in nature. So we've now reached this point, and this is the last real big point I want to make on this. What we're seeing with this strike in Israel, first of all, solidarity to these people who walked off of their jobs and did this because you have to do stuff like this if you don't have democratic means. I think, Nick, that seeing this take place, and we saw this in France, we saw this as the right was starting to begin to take power and, you know, gain a little bit of a footing there. What we are seeing is that if we are continued to be denied democratic, small-D democratic inroads to make change and show our displeasure, which is what's happening in the United States of America right now, this is one of the last recourses. And I think the future that we are looking at unless things take a market almost unexpected turn is eventually that pressure and that frustration is going to grow and grow and grow. The other day, Nick, I brought this up in an interview. You ever watch those videos of the hydraulic presses that break things? - No, but okay. - Do you even know what I'm talking about? - I can visualize, I don't know, something-- - It's like a hydraulic factory press, and then there's like a bowling ball on like a platform. Do you know what I'm talking about? - You know, you're good, you can describe things. - You need to look, these are very satisfying. So a hydraulic press goes down on like an object, like a bowling ball, right? And eventually it reaches the bowling ball, and like there's just like this moment where like, which is going to give the press or the bowling ball, right? And you're just waiting on the object to explode or for the press to break. That is what is happening politically and economically right now. And the question is, is this anti-democratic agenda that by the way is economic in the way that it moves into incentives and also the sort of means that it takes, is that going to give or are the people going to give? And I think our future, whether it's climate change, anti-democratic movements, intentional inequality, eventually you're going to see many more of these strike actions, particularly when you have leaders like Sean Fane at the UAW who is already talking about a general strike in 2028, God knows what that will look like. But I do think that this is a preview, and I think a necessary preview of where things might be going. - Absolutely. And I like the fact that you made the connection that like, you know, political and economic things are the same at this point. And that's exactly true. And let's just hope that they continue to put pressure on the government to get effective change. They need to, it needs to end, it needs to stop. And, you know, if you have a chance, watch, you know, the parents spoke at the DNC when I was there, and they were actually prepared for a negative response when they first came out there. And it turned out everybody was silent and on the edge of their seat listening to their speech. And their speech was terrific in the sense that it advocated for both sides and it advocated for, you know, the humanitarian treatment of everybody in Gaza as well. So that's the message that needs to resonate louder here. And eventually, hopefully we'll just get an end to this before any other people are killed. - Solidarity, it's the only way forward. Nick, before we get to Fred, I just want to take a quick minute to go over a couple of things. When it comes to the Donald Trump campaign, we're going to be talking about the debacle at Arlington and the disgrace that he is. Before we do a couple of notes that have taken place over the last couple of days, Trump, who is absolutely desperate, which makes me wonder if he will or won't attend that debate, has just really, really just, he's throwing everything at the wall. Currently, he is backtracking his position on abortion. It sounds like he's trying to tell people that he might be in support of a ban after six weeks, which is shocking, but also sort of moving. It's pissing off some people on the right. We also see him sort of backtracking on things like IVF. On top of that, this is getting no attention whatsoever. In an interview in the last week, he said, and I want to remind people we talked about this from the X, the everything app spaces, whatever the hell we're calling them now, that Elon Musk had planted in him the idea that he could run a committee, an undemocratic, unelected, unaccountable committee, hoarding over funds in the government, which is crazy and dangerous. Trump is now openly saying he'd be more than willing to put Musk in that position or put him on this cabinet. It appears that he's been completely bought off, much like the way they bought JD Vance onto the ticket. Things are getting wild and woolly, and I think, Nick, and I want to hear what you have to say about this, the more desperate Trump becomes, the more unpredictable and dangerous he becomes. Yeah, I mean, I think that sounds right. The pro-choice thing that he said, he said that six weeks was too short. I had predicted this during the Roe v. Wade thing when they were getting rid of it was, they're going to end up getting back to some, we're just arguing over a number here, 12 weeks, 15 weeks, 18 weeks, and don't forget, Roe v. Wade only protected it through 24 weeks. So out of all of this and all of the hearts, like if they get back to like, let's just say it's 18 weeks or whatever, some weird bullshit compromise thing, like the fact that people had to suffer for years until we got back to where they always knew they were going to get to anyway, is unconscionable. And just shows you how this was never about abortion anyway, and I think that they also realized that they liked it as a issue, but not actually as a way of that fucking changing the actual laws. They didn't want that, they wanted it to be there as a poogeyman the whole time, and then they discover that two years later that they know what would be a lot better if it was still in, we can just complain about it. - Well, so first things first, Donald Trump doesn't give a shit about anything except for Donald Trump. There is not an issue that exists on the face of the earth outside of him lining his pockets and getting the attention that he so desperately craves. That's it, he is willing to do whatever, sell out whatever, go with whatever. This is one of the things that makes him the most dangerous, is because he is able to be sold out to an Elon Musk, or I don't know Nick, a Saudi Arabia, or an Egypt, or a Russia, whatever, right? It's because of his inherent putrid instincts and his own selfishness and narcissism and abuse, and also his willingness to sell out anybody and anything. What you brought up is important. There are so many people suffering right now. So many people who do not have rights over their own bodies, who have died and suffered and just been put absolute through absolute miseries. This shouldn't even be an issue. This shouldn't even, this isn't even a left or right, red or blue issue. Everybody agrees in America, save for a slim, slim minority who has been overrepresented, overrepresented for economic purposes for the record, because wealthy people want to use them in order to forward their agenda, and also create an underclass of workers, which is what this whole thing's been about. Over 70%, nearly 80% of Americans don't think that this should even be debatable. They don't even think that this is something that should be happening. Where this ends up, and by the way, Donald Trump will lie and lie and lie, he'll sign an abortion ban, a nationwide abortion ban if it's put in front of him, happily, happily, which is one of the things that they're looking for. But it is important to point out, again, as we were talking about the Israel and Gaza stuff, there are real people who are being heard here. There are real living human beings who are being unnecessarily hurt and put through the ringer because of these selfish assholes. - Yeah, well said, disgusting. And it doesn't have an effect on the people. It's whatever this is to the actual voters who are for Trump and for the Republican Party, and the one issue voters, right? There are people in my extended family or one issue voters, they voted against Hillary because of, they didn't want pro-choice. It's astounding. It's astounding to me that they've gotten that far where they just destroy the country for that one issue. And hopefully it'll, I suspect it will get back to where we were. I mean, I think it's going to ultimately get back to some version of Roe v. Wade again. - If we're lucky, I mean, that's the thing. If we're lucky, and I think that shows the dire circumstances of all of this, if we're lucky, we'll get back to where we were 50 years ago. You know, or it will get worse, but that's part of the fight. Speaking of that fight, we are now going to welcome onto the program Fred Wellman, who is a veteran and political strategist and host of On Democracy on Midas Touch and On the Line with Vote Bets. We'll be back with that interview in just a second. All right, everybody, as promised, we are here with Fred Wellman, who is a veteran and political strategist and devilishly handsome. He is the host of On Democracy on Midas Touch and On the Line with Vote Bets. Fred, thanks so much for stopping by. - Hey, look at that in my bio. I appreciate it. (both laughing) - Fred, we were interested to get you on the pod because we believe that spiritually, you are a friend of the pod, but also because of the recent, absolutely bullshit, terrible, controversially. You know, controversy doesn't even cover it. I kind of hate that. We need to be careful with words, right, Nick? - It's a crime. - It's a literal crime and a black eye on politics and culture. Fred, recently Donald Trump smeared his disgustingness all over Arlington Cemetery. It seems that his people assaulted an employee who's now afraid to even press charges. This has been resonating over the past few days, I think because of how shameless and awful it is as a veteran and as a decent human being, Fred. How do you feel about this? How do you even begin to process what has happened? - Well, I've been, you know, pissed. I mean, and thanks for having me. And not only am I a friend of the, I'm a fan of the pod, but yeah, it is, it's shocking. And I think a lot of it comes down to just how sacred Arlington is. And especially Section 60, to those of us who have served since 9/11. Something I've said a lot in the last few days is, if anyone has served any veteran military member, family member has served since 9/11, especially if they've gotten down and ranged to combat in Iraq, Afghanistan, or elsewhere, you're maybe one, two, three degrees of separation from someone buried in Section 60. So it's truly, we say hollow ground a lot. It's almost ridiculous how much we say it. But Section 60, especially in Arlington, is hollow ground, I mean, it was, who are recent veterans. And for me, we talk a lot about how Section 60 is the living part of Arlington. You know, if you know the history of Arlington, we started in 1860s when General Meigs sort of did an FU, did Robert E. Lee, and used Lee's mansion as a, as a, as a, as a cemetery for you, I mean, which is, I mean, one of the greatest FU's in American history is using your enemy's house as the cemetery for the people you killed. But it'd be grew into so much more. There are over 400,000 Americans buried in Arlington. It gets bigger, they've added, they've added actually more land to it in recent years because it continues to grow. And so many of our, our American, you know, heroes want to be buried there. But Section 60 is unique because it's, it's the section that's been only used since just before 9/11, it was, it was started then. It's the living part. That's where you'll see, you know, throughout our, you'll see, frankly, tours, let's be honest. But in Section 60, you see family members. You'll see those who have lost those of us in the last 20 years visiting those graves. You'll see children, my God. You'll see toddlers for God's sake. That's how recent some of those graves are of guys who have served. And so for Trump to come barreling in, whether or not the families adopted, invited, the, the, the lie to keep saying is what the families want on there. Great. Well, I'm, I'm a customer bank of America. You know, I can't just invite bank robbers in. Okay. He's like, there's 400,000 other American families that have family members in that cemetery. So three of them who are rightfully upset about the loss their family members. And I'll never criticize Cold Star families to the best of my ability. But the excuse that because they invited Trump, he was allowed to do all the things to include filming a campaign video is just, it's ridiculous and it's unacceptable. And I think they're miscalculating this. It's funny. They were gated online yesterday by all these Mac and people saying, oh, did you see the videos from the family? They invited him. I don't get a flying flip if they fucking invited him. Doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. What matters is the behavior. I think I posted today, like we talked, I think we talked about before we talked that they literally broke federal law by campaign, by bringing campaign video. But isn't it funny, you guys, you get it. You're like me. Isn't it sad that the issue was where when he broke the law, not whether he completely shit all, pardon me, I don't know if we're allowed to cuss. No, no, no. My shit all over again, yet another normal tradition, a third rail the military community is Arlington. I don't give a crap if he broke the law. My God, he put out a TikTok video in section 60, attacking President Biden for their loss of these service members, that is smearing good service. So it's a classic MAGA, you know, hand wave. Well, you didn't break the law. Is that our measure now? Is that all that matters, whether or not he's yet convicted of another felony or not? It's just disgusting. Well, Fred, it feels to me like I'm looking at your Twitter feed and you're reporting on this, is that there probably are some details that other people might not even be familiar with of surrounding this. I thought maybe, are there things that are maybe even gnawing at you that aren't being said enough about how this all unfolded and whether or not they were truly allowed to even get there in the first place and how that how the strings were pulled to allow Trump to even get there with this. Yeah, oh, big time. So a libel donor stand, you see the video and the pictures of the wreath laying at the tune of the unknown. And you assume that's an official event. One of the attacks that's been made is that why it wasn't Biden and Harris there. So one of the things you have to understand about Arlington's unique is that any private group, a family, an approved nonprofit, a veteran socialization can actually put in a request to do a wreath laying at the tune of the unknown. And it'll be based on scheduling and availability. They do 3,000 or so of these private wreath layings a year. There's the official ones Memorial Day, Veteran's Day. There's literally a picture right now. I've been sharing a lot of Vice President Harris in the pouring rain on Veteran's Day 2022 laying a wreath at the tune of the unknown. But what a lot of people don't understand is like, Lilly, I could put in for a wreath laying for one of my nonprofits, say vote vets, my group that I support, vote vets could put in. I think we have actually had a wreath laying. So this was a private wreath laying. The story is that these, there's only three or 13, by the way, it wasn't all 13 families, that's another story. But three of the 13 families who tragically lost family members on a three years ago at the abigate bombing, which was just horrible, three of those families allegedly requested this private wreath laying in the anniversary of the attack. And they invited Donald Trump. Now they're saying they invited Vice President Harris and President Biden. But why not deny that it when the fight came? However, let's think about that for a second. Literally two of these families spoke at the RNC. They were actually speakers of the RNC when they attacked President Biden. So you want me to say, oh, but they're just really just neutral actors who invited the president when they actually were attacking him on the stage of the RNC a month ago. So that's what's now, here's where it gets weird. When they announced they're going to bring Trump, who is a candidate, yes, he's a former president. But let's remember, he is the nominee for Republican president, for Republican nominee. He's an active candidate for office in an election just two months away. So when Arlington got the request, they initially denied it. Because again, federal laws, part of the Hatch Act, is there's no political activity or campaigning at Arlington. A matter of fact, a young man who had been a tomb guard and then got out and ran for office two years ago, he actually, or four years ago, I think it was during that. I wanna say it was during the 20th cycle. Either way, he actually went into Arlington and filmed a video for his campaign and gotten a metric ton of trouble because he created new content on the grounds of Arlington for his campaign. That's illegal. So, Arlington turned it down. Well, apparently they contacted the Congressman Texas who contacted the Speaker of the House and Johnson himself interviewed the army and pressured the army to allow this. The army gave in and said, "All right, we'll do it." But here's the rules. No campaigning, no campaign video. We'll have an official photographer in section 60 because there's other families there. That was the plan. They knew the plan. They agreed to the plan. So they go in, they do their two of the unknown wreath link. You can see Lasavita in the back. You can see Corluandowski in the back, okay? Those guys didn't just show up for events. They were there for the campaign. From there, they moved to section 60. What the story happened is, the army civilian, and most of the officers who run by civilian employees, the army, dedicated public servants, I served with many of them, she tried to enforce, well, hey, look, we have an official photographer here. You can't bring your cameras in here. We'll take all the pictures you want and you can use them later. But if the families want, 'cause the family's like, we want a picture with Donald Trump, great. There was an official photographer there for that sole purpose. And why an official photographer? Because they're gonna do the things like, make sure there's not other families visiting the graves in the background, included, which is in those pictures, if you've seen them online. They're gonna make sure the other graves are maybe cut out of the picture. They frame it around just the participants. They know what they're doing. Their trained professionals are paid by the army to be there and show respect for Arlington. But instead what happened is, Trump's campaign bulldozed her, got a allegedly an altercation, we'll leave it at that, bold their way past, film this event, and why do we know they're filming that? They put the goddamn thing out on TikTok the very next day with voice over from that orange globular dickhead attacking Biden hair. Sorry, that was a little bit much. (laughing) And so. - Not enough. - Yeah, so that's the thing. So in the end, they actually proved they broke the law by putting out a fucking campaign video. So I'm very frustrated that a lot of people don't understand the reverence and things. And you can look at those pictures that idiot smiling pictures with his thumbs up. You can see another family in the background. One of the grave markers next door to the grave they're filming in one of the pictures, they actually were MAGA supporters, they're Trump supporters. But they put out a statement because their son was a greenberry who did 20 tours, 20 deployments downrange in the war terror and took his life just a year or two ago. I mean, it's suicide. - I mean, we need to bring that, it sounds bad, Fred. - It's bad. - Fred, I think when it comes to almost everything with Trump, there's the spectacle. There's the thing that initially makes us nauseous and we see it and we're like, oh my God, this is awful. I can't believe a human being would do this. But I think it's also useful sometimes to sort of focus in and sort of look at what these things represent. I come from a family of veterans. And one of the things that I feel like always gets lost, particularly when we talk about Donald Trump and his treatment and disrespect for veterans. And now this escalation. One of the things we lose track of are the human beings who are being affected here. And you as a veteran, I wondered if you could talk about what it has been like for you. First of all, to watch, you know, in the wake of the war on terror, all of these wars, all of these people who have died, all of these people who have served. And by the way, like they're not doing it politically. They're doing it because they're called for service or because they believe in something for a variety of reasons. We don't take care of our veterans. We'll bring them on a football field. We'll salute them and thank them. We'll buy them a beer every now and then. And meanwhile, the system has just perpetually not given you and your friends and colleagues what they deserve and the actual reverence of support. What's it been like to watch this take place, to watch a presidential candidate and eventually the president of the United States and Donald Trump just chronically disrespect what all of you have done and now take it to this next level? What is that like as an individual to watch this play out? - Well, it's been a long journey for me. And I actually wanna correct one of your things you said. It's actually worse than that because in a lot, the punch on this whole story is the Democrats have taken care of, especially in the last 10 to 15 years under Obama and then especially under President Biden. Something you have to remember about President Biden is President Biden is the first U.S. president to send a child to war since Eisenhower, okay? Bo Biden going down range was the first, so we call that a blue star family member. It's a unique experience. One of the hardest things I did, wasn't my three to four deployments to combat. It was saying my son a lot of combat, okay? So that's a unique thing. And so passing the PACT Act, which was the largest expansion of veterans' healthcare written by John Tester, approved, signed by President Biden. By the way, first time they tried to pass it, Republicans stopped it and high-fived about it. So the Democrats have been doing the work to try and take care of my field of veterans. One million veterans are on the benefits rules in the last two years because of the PACT Act. So that's one thing, but let's circle back to Trump. Trump started this years ago. He never liked the military. His family's famous for that. But let's talk about July 2015 when he did that family comp, focused the family conference. And they asked about John McCain. He said, "I like people that weren't captured." Although he smeared the POW committee. And so I tell a story often, I was a veteran's advocate than you guys. I actually owned a PR firm that focused exclusively on veterans issues in Washington, D.C. Many of my clients were the top veteran service organizations and I won't name them now because I don't want them to attack by MAGA because that's how we are. But what shocked me about that, I thought it was done. I said, that's it. Smearing POWs, like POWs, Gold Star families. I mean, there's just things that, yeah, don't touch, right? You know what I mean? Even the fall and kind of, you don't really. But believe it or not, the families in the fall, Arlington National Cemetery, POWs, MIA, they literally have an event every year in D.C. Memorial. They're called Rolling Thunder to honor the POWs and NIH. So we smeared POWs. I like people that weren't captured. Everybody says, oh, it was about McCain. No, he said very specifically, I like people that weren't captured, okay? He disrespects people who were captured. So I thought, that's it, he's done, it's over, he's done. What happened though, if you remember, was while his opponents squawked, what really was weird was so many of his supporters are like, veterans, mind you. We're like, well, McCain's a piece of shit. You know, it was really about politics. And that was the day I realized, holy crap, something has changed, Donald Trump's different. The MAGA movement's very different. What should have been a uniting thing for all veterans of all political strikes and it's splitting us right down the middle. There was the people who saw it and the people who didn't. And so this is just what he's been like and what he's done to my community is the most shocking part. It really is. - Well, Fred, I just wanna follow up on that because I think that's one of the most important things about Donald Trump that a lot of people lose, which is he's an incredible sort of viewing stone. He makes obvious like what people actually believe versus what it is that they espouse. And one of the things that Nick and I have covered for years now is that the Republican Party, it turns out that every quote unquote principle, and of course we talked to Stuart Stevens, which was incredibly illuminating in this regard. And one of the things we learn is everything that they have said that they actually believe in have always been cudgels. They've always been things that they want to attack. And that is a way in order to get power. And so what is it like after watching years and years, and of course like the beginning of the 21st century was so much rhetoric, so much espoused principles. And what did the Democrats constantly do? They got dinged because they didn't care enough about veterans or they didn't care enough about the troops. And it turned out all along. And this is I think the magic, the poisonous magic of Donald Trump is he just went ahead and said what everybody else was actually thinking and believed and made it okay. And I always say that horror is actually believing that something like in the past, something that you felt wasn't real and that all along you both was real. And I wondered if you could talk about like what that moment was like for you? Like not just the McCain thing, but just the continual thing that the Republicans are not only okay with this, but they're like, oh my God, thank God somebody finally said it. - Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me. I was a Republican guy, that's I was a Republican voter for all those years. I was a Republican when he said that. And that was my last straw. I walked away from the party at that point. I never went back because it was just like, this should have ended him. And so for me, that was the eye opening experience. Just as Stuart Stevens said, you know, I work with Stuart Lincoln Project of course. And I had the opportunity to hang out with Stuart a lot and talk about these things. And that's exactly right. There was this sudden realization. And he'd been dawning on me for years. I'm not gonna lie. I talked to my ex-wife about it one time. She's like, what are you talking about? You've always been liberalish, okay? You always thought that people had a right there, health, only healthcare choices. You always thought that people had a right there who they loved and who wasn't none of your business. I was strong on defense as a soldier. I believe in fiscal conservatism. But what is fiscal conservatism? It means when I give you my tax dollars, they go to the greater good. They're not used corruptly. They're not used to benefit the rich. They build good roads. They build good bridges. They build a strong defense. Those are no longer Republican principles if they ever really were, right? And that's where Stuart comes in, right? The book is famous. The book is simple. It was all a lie, right? And it was all a lie. I mean, and you're right. I think a lot of his Donald Trump is too dumb to keep up the facade. He just says where he was in his mind 'cause he's truly just a walking id. You know, he just, he doesn't have the ability to be new one. I love what people tell me. I had somebody today saying that he didn't really mean that he played this liquid, right? Oh, he's being nuanced. Have you met Donald Trump? There's not a bit of nuance, but a man. He's a walking toddler. You know, he's a 78 year old toddler. He just blurched shit out. And so to me, it's been an eye-opening journey for me to say this was all bullshit. This is all lies, right? And it also allows me to do things like understand what they're doing. So the perfect example I was doing an interview yesterday and they said, are you shocked that the Republicans haven't apologized for what? I mean, it would be a simple, digital apologize. I'm like, guys, okay, the one thing I learned and I won't name names. If you remember, I did work at the Lincoln Project. I was a Democrat at the Lincoln Project. All the eight founders were Republican operatives, some of the most famous. I mean, come on, Rick Wilson has a trekking past, right? Stuart Stevens, Steve Schmidt. I mean, these aren't run-of-the-mill Republican operatives. These were the real thing. I was taught there that Republican principle 101 is never apologize, always attack, right? You've never seen a Republican apologize for anything. You'll never see Republicans say, I screwed up. I'm sorry, that was what I'm saying. That's what's so unique about, by the way, Governor Cox from Utah actually put out an apology when his campaign put out an email with pictures from Arlington. He actually issued an apology. That is shocking. Probably because he's a good Mormon from Utah, you know, he's actually a decent person. But you see, they're never gonna apologize, man. They're not, it's not what they do. They attack, and that's what they're doing. And that's what you see, Chris La Civita issued a tweet, talking to the United States Army after this event went down. Not only are they not going back or apologize or have any recognition of the main mistake. They may actually recognize the main mistake, but they'll never apologize. They're gonna attack people like me, attack people like you guys, your viewers, say we're full of shit, say we're, you know, Libtards, whatever they can do to change the conversation. But it is a sickness within that party and why I stand by what I've said for years that needs to go away. The Republican party needs to go out in the woods and be lost in the desert for 40 days, 40 years, whatever it may be to figure out who the hell they are because this evil dictator fascist, you know, loving, you know, hate-filled movement isn't what it was supposed to be in a conservative movement or maybe it is, you know, I'm a happy Democrat. I'll just put it that way. - Well, I think that's what happened in 2016 was they were supposed to lose, Hillary was gonna come in and that was gonna be their wilderness where they would have had a reckoning like, the funny thing is is they had that happened in 2012, right? And then what do we get? We got the worst, even worse, a doubling down of what they were doing under the guise of we're gonna put our heads together and figure out the new path, right? And that's the one that you guys, I got invited to RNC headquarters. Believe it or not, I met with Sean, what's this hell? To talk about veterans outreach that they felt like they lost too many of the veteran community in that election and they implemented, thank God I didn't take the contract but they invited none of it, you know? - Well, here's my thought about that 'cause it sounds like we've been worrying someone's gonna come along after Trump and then sort of use the playbook would be even more disciplined and better but it doesn't, it doesn't feel like that's gonna happen because it is, the cult of Trump is so powerful and I'm also, I think I can fold that into the notion of when you serve in the armed forces. Is there like sort of a built in, not fealty, built in loyalty to the president because this is part of the, you know, he's the commander in chief and is that, is that what he's trying to sort of in a cynical way tap into to somehow get veterans and people who are serving to be on his side? 'Cause we know that they are after these kind of events. Actually, what's really interesting is that we aren't that loyal to the commander in chief per se. And one of the interesting things you'll find about military services, you serve whoever's in the office. You respect the office. It's actually something, they say it in "Bander Brothers." There's a scene in "Bander Brothers" from 2001 where now that Winter's been promoted to major, the guy who replaced an easy company, still a captain and he walks by at the end of the movie at the end of the documentary, he doesn't salute winners and Winter stops and he says, "Capped and stillable, "and you don't salute the person. "You salute the rank, you salute." And so it's ingrained into us that we respect, we're supposed to be apolitical. It doesn't matter if the commander chief is. I served Clinton, I served Obama, I served Bush, I served Bush one, I went to war for Bush one. I also served, I mean, I came in at a Reagan, I mean, 22 years in the army, I didn't, and frankly, I mean, yeah, I may have had opinions, but the commander in chief is the commander in chief. What Trump has created is a cult of person that's unique and it taps into a lot of what's occurred in the military, but the all volunteer force has become a very close society, unfortunately. It's a family affair. I, my, wellments have served in the United States military since before it was the United States. We actually had a guy served in the French and any more. My father was in war too, my son's a veteran, my son lost still in the National Guard. It's a family business, but that also means now we realize that brings the family politics, that brings the family culture, and that may not be a good culture. And look, eight weeks of basic training doesn't get rid of what your 18 years of raising them. They say it all the time. Look, I'm not gonna be able to get rid of what's in that kid's head in just eight to 13 weeks of training. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I can try and, I can make, give them our values, but at the end, if you've given a kid bigotry, racism, and hatred, I'm not gonna train that out of him, okay, unless he says it himself. I moved from Kirkwood, Missouri and went to West Point. My first roommate was Dale, Dale's Black kid from Baltimore, and used to eff with me mercilessly, you know? And it was great, and I learned, oh, okay. You know, that's how I learned. Not everyone gets that education. So, for me, what Trump has done very effectively is play to the worst of our community, the worst the veteran military community, this desire to be right, that this belief within a many in the military community that they're better than other Americans, that they're above other Americans, because they stepped up and served in the 20-year war on terror, that they risked their life. This is a factor of getting free fucking onions and apple bees for 20 years, right? And we joke about in the military community how, you know, oh, you didn't thank me for my service. I joke, but it really makes magma mad when they'll yell at me and tell me I'm a fake veteran all. I'll say, wait a minute, wait a minute. You didn't thank me for my service. What's up with that kid, you know? And it pisses him off because the funniest part is half a mil go, thank you for your service. I mean, it's so ingrained, you know? And sadly, there's many that veteran in the military community, 16 million of us living veterans, okay? When I say all the time when you've met one veteran, you've met one veteran, 'cause we're all different. But there's a sad large proportion, something like 52% voted for Trump last time, that believe they're better than other Americans, that their job is not to serve the American people as a service, as a humble servant, but actually be worshiped, be brought higher. And Trump has done a brilliant job of coming in and saying, I will take care of you. You are better than everybody else, right? Look at me hug the flag, you know? Look, I love the flag more than anybody else 'cause I hug it. And there's a weird id, there's a weird lizard brain thing and some of the people I've served with sadly who believe this, right? And it's scary, I know I'm going on long, I apologize for that. - Well, no, I wanna ask you a question about that because that is actually something that very much fascinates me in the research and the history that I've gotten into. One of the things I find is that fascism and authoritarianism feeds off of that. - Yes. - You know, leading into the fascists and the Nazis, there was a thing called trenchocracy, which was the idea that the people who were on the frontlines and who are fighting and doing that, they deserve to be better, higher citizens. And eventually what happens is they look at people within liberal democracy, whether it's the Weimar or whether it's Italy or whatever it is, and they say, look these feckless assholes, they aren't doing anything, they aren't leading things their correct way. We need to come in and we need to assert ourselves because we are better. And one of the things, and Nick brought up like the cult of personality around Trump, and one of the reasons, I listen, I'm terrified of people like Josh Holly because I think one of the missing components of this authoritarian movement is rabid militarism. I think Donald Trump has actually hurt himself in some ways by not cultivating it 'cause of the cognitive dissonance you're talking about. It's sort of like AI. It takes a lot of energy to generate that. And it's actually stronger if you like lean into it. And I was wondering if you could, what you just laid out I think is really, really important. That trenchocracy ideology that is sort of what makes this thing sort of go and makes it sort of sustain itself. - It's scary, isn't it? And we want to think that our veterans or military members are better than that. I do, I did. I'm a West Point graduate. I've dropped out of all the West Point groups that I was a part of except one, which is a weird offshoot that's almost secret for liberal grads, you know? Because so many of my peers, you graduate from the military academy, especially as Boomer or Gen X, sorry, we're Gen X. Such as my Gen X peers, Deja Storm veterans have gone off the deep end in Trumpism. And there is this desire, and we don't want to admit that Americans could do that, that our fellow American veterans could think that way. But there's absolutely that. People forget all the time that the squadistas in Italy were veterans of World War I, that Hitler's initial SS was veterans of World War I. And here we have now, look, don't forget the 3%. People forget the history, the Oath Keepers. Do you know what the 3% stands for? There's this stupid historical disbelief that only 3% of colonial Americans actually conducted the revolution. Which is worship, my own, my very own ancestor was one of them, right? That's a fake number. But that's what the idea of the 3%ers came from. They're better than others. They are police, they are soldiers. They're better than other Americans. 'Cause the other ones are me. This is that whole fucking, the worst of them, the worst of my community. I don't know if you've ever seen this, it's called the sheepdog thing. And this is also throughout law enforcement, very much the military, that the sheepdog protects the sheep. That the sheepdog is better. That those who serve the military or in law enforcement are the sheepdogs and they protect the weak little sheep. And that's what's scary about Trumpism and the magma movement. It's very much trying to tap in it. Now, like you did say something key. Trump is also ADHD, probably mentally insane. Isn't very good. He's not nearly as talented as fucking evil. I hate to say this as I should, I'm gonna pull that back. He isn't as good at the very evil things he should be doing. What saved us in Trump one was his incompetence, to be honest, right? We may not get lucky the second time. But having said all that, there is this scary part. And that's leading, you know, back to what we were talking about, kind of returning to the comment I was making earlier about, having a veteran's advocacy firm. So 2020, I was getting divorced. You know, my PTSD had gotten the better of me finally. My company was struggling because I, you know, when the CEO was losing his mind, it's not great. And I went to an event in Washington DC for veterans and a long time friend of mine who had invited me to every one of his conferences to lead the first panel every year. I was, this is a weird thing. I would fly down and run a panel in his veteran service organization contract. And he, he were talking and I had a lot of gin in me fellows. And, and we're talking, he says, man, I'd love to hire your firm. You're the best firm in this, you know, in the veteran's world, the best PR firm, the best Avenue firm. You know, I said, I agree, we would kill it for you. I, I, I, I know your mission. I know your people. And he says to me, he goes, yeah, but you know what, here's the thing, man. My board would never let me hire you. You know, your politics is because your politics, I couldn't hire you. I did say fuck you. And I said, I said, you know, dude, you were, you were currently in the United States Air Force. How much of a fucking coward are you that you wouldn't stand up your board? And that's what happened. These, these veteran service organizations were afraid of Trump. They wouldn't get invited to the Easter egg roll if they went against him. It's easy to forget that the day Donald Trump signed a bill or something, who fucking knows, at his, at the resolute desk and a reporter asked about Alexander Vimmen, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vimmen at the time. And the reporter asked him about Vimmen and his, and testifying and Trump went off smearing Alexander Vimmen, smearing his service, smearing him. But what most people don't get, if you look up that moment, standing behind him was the heads of at least seven veteran service organizations. And one of them was a client of mine at the time. And they stood there like props as Donald Trump smeared an active duty serving officer just doing his duty, answering a subpoena. And that's when I was like, okay. And then the, then the, then the COVID hit my, I closed my company and I joined the Lincoln Project. (laughing) You know? And that's, that's the poison of Donald Trump. The poison of Donald Trump is that using his power to manipulate and poison decent people and decent organizations and bend them to his will. It's, it's terrifying. This is why, you know, the Trumpies are always after me because I've got TDS and I was like, no, I'm a student of history. I went to West Point. I studied military history. I know where this ends and it's not good, you know? It's, it's the end of what we love as a country. And it's a very real threat and we have to take it that way. - Yeah, I have to imagine that the 52% of support of his, if he had done this quote, unquote, properly as a fascist or authoritarian, would have gotten it to 80, 90. And then that's, that's part of the playbook as well. So I thought it interesting though, you know, I don't know if it's going to come out. I guess I'm curious to think if you're going to think that the, the video will come out of the assault of what sounds to me like somebody in the military who was working there. I don't, it's not clear. No one's going to notice who the woman is. But it sounds like it would be a clear assault. It sounds like there's probably a video of that as well. But I also find it interesting that, I don't know if you guys remember, but in Flint, Michigan in 2016, during a campaign speech at a church, a black pastor, a woman, stopped him. And he immediately got scared and, oh, I'm sorry, whatever, it wouldn't do it. Like, I find that fascinating that like there's a woman of power who was able to actually step in and shut that down right away. And he coughed out to her completely. And I wonder if like, how that worked and why that wouldn't have worked better or what they did here, you know what I mean? It just, that struck me as an interesting juxtaposition because there are people who've been able to somehow impress upon him where he is and what the appropriateness of the situation is. And this, this one was a failure. - Misogynist and a misogynist. - Well, that's, and he's a coward in this situation. And that's the way you highlight. He got caught alone, right, one-on-one. Bullies travel in packs. Trump's always been surrounded by people to do his muscle work. You guys know this, right? And every fucking movie from John, you know, every movie, every kid movie has the bullies in packs, right? Come on, from back to the future to every other one, right? There's always bullies travel. Trump has always been a bully. Let other people do his dirty work. Maybe I just know that the person, what I heard, first of all, I do know who it was. Second of all, what I was told by Insiders is that there's rumors, there was actually lots of it himself that got him the shoving match. It wasn't Trump, it was, it was lots of it. And so, who's a veteran, by the way? A veteran of the Desert Storm. Who actually had a Purple Heart? He got injured in the Desert Storm. He's the one dragging the, if you notice, he's the one dragging the, you know, Arlington staff on Twitter. So I think it was him. I think it was Chris Lassavita. Video will, I do know for a fact that, see, the other thing that's interesting guys is the Pentagon press scores on this. This isn't the political press now. It's the Pentagon press. Damn them off, they're washing their posts, the guy leaving this. Taricop at AP, the political, the military press, the Pentagon press score, are the ones pursuing this now, right? And those are the people who have relationships with public affairs officers. Those are the relationships with the commander of military district of Washington. They've already fired, they've, I know for a fact, they've filed a FOIA request for the police support and a FOIA request for the actual wreath laying request to see who it came from. So they're also following for all the emails that went back and forth to the Trump campaign and Arlington. So look, it's all gonna come out. It's all gonna come out. But as far as your question about Trump, Trump is a bully who's never been punched in the face, right? I mean, how often do you see that, right? These are people who have never been punched. And that's Trump, you know? There's an old joke that the way you stop a sharp attack is punch them in the fucking nose. And Trump's never been punched in the nose. And so he needs to lose and his weak people need to lose. As far as the Trump movement, I'm not one of those people who believe for a second is going away after he goes away. If he'll ever go away. My friend, Jeff Timmer from "Lincoln Project" always says, is the one with two things and a stop Donald Trump, his heart and a jail cell and/or a jail cell. But the little Trump, I live in Missouri, you guys. We've got a thousand little Trumpies run around here using flamethrowers. Remember that idiot woman that ran for Secretary of State, took seventh place, but kept burning books and calling people slurs and her videos? You know, those are the people I'm done with here in Missouri. They all think they've all tied on to this movement. We have to work very hard for the next 10, 20, possibly a generation to put the maga movement behind us and defeat it. It's not going away just 'cause Donald Trump finally hears a jail cell slam behind him. - Fred, we gotta let you go in a second. But before we do, I would be remiss. I am a collector. I'm a collector of JD Vance's miseries because he is one of the biggest pieces of shit to walk the planet earth. - That's a fact. - JD Vance has a history in military press and public relations. And of course, he's not going to apologize for this, but just very, very quickly, Fred, can you give us a portrait of the horror that JD Vance must have felt when he heard about this situation, knowing what it was, what it represented, and what an absolute debacle this was, just so we can bathe in it a little bit. - Well, one, you're making a very big assumption that JD Vance can feel horror. I don't believe a sociopath can, you know, but as an ex-marine. - I think everybody wakes up. - Right, yeah, I mean, if he wasn't a sociopath, I totally agree with you. But I think as an ex-marine, and I say that very pointedly, he's not a former Marine, he's an ex-marine. He walked away from the oath we all took. My father was a former Marine from World War II. He's an ex-marine. And so he should know better, and he does know the rules, and he knows how offensive this is. And what, when you look at the pathology and the brokenness of JD Vance, the fact that he's so quickly and easily and comfortably defended all of this tells you just how fucking dangerous he is. - Fred Wellman is a veteran political strategist and host of On Democracy on Midas Touch and On the Line with Vote Vets. Fred, this has been wonderful. Thank you for stopping by. Let's do it again soon. - All right, look forward. Thanks for having me. When you call it, I was thrilled to join us. So thanks for the great work you guys do. It means the world's made to be part of it. - Thanks, Fred. - Cheers. - All right, everybody, that was Fred Wellman. It was so nice having him on the podcast. Nick, I'm so glad that you had a chance to touch base with Fred. And again, I'm on here. I think the perspective of a veteran was really, really important, especially as this new disgusting controversy plays out. - Oh, absolutely. And it was great to have him in his perspective. And yeah, it could work. So definitely it should check him out as well. It was funny 'cause when I connected with him, it was just as two old white guys amidst all these kids in this creator content group, right? And I didn't even realize, I was like, wait a minute. This is the same Fred who's always in my feed. You know, I'm always loving his tweets. It was crazy. So a really nice conference of events to make that happen. And we'll he'll be back on. We're gonna talk a little bit more about the creator program too, the next time and what the threat of that is to the legacy media, if you will. - The fake news media. - Lame stream media. - Yeah, the failing New York Times. Man, they are putting out some bangers lately. Do not underestimate their ability to embarrass themselves and push moderate fascism. It's fantastic. All right, everybody. We hope you had a fantastic Labor Day. We appreciate you so, so much. Never ever forget that you deserve better. Your coworkers deserve better. Your families deserve better. Your loved ones deserve better. All right, everybody, we will be back with the weekend or episode on Friday, go to patreon.com/bookbreakpodcast and get full access to that. If you need us before then, you can find Nick, can you hear me? It's reaching for me, James. That's it. ♪ The only union makes us strong ♪ [BLANK_AUDIO]
