(soft music) - You're listening to Flaunt. Find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. A podcast for women who've been betrayed by their intimate partner and want to turn their devastation into an invitation to reclaim themselves and their worth. Tune in weekly so you can start making sense of it all and learn how to be okay on the inside, no matter what goes on on the outside. Download your free Betrayal Recovery Toolkit at BetrayalRecoveryGuide.com. (soft music) - Hello and welcome to Flaunt. Create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. I'm Lauren Cheetall and today I have got Dr. Robert Weiss as a guest on my show. And I'm really looking forward to this interview and to sharing this information with you. He is the founding director of Seeking Integrity LLC, which provides residential and online treatment, education and support for male sexual addicts and their families. And I will definitely have him share more about that. But today we're going to get very clear on things like sex addiction, porn addiction, the interplay of alcohol or any type of substance abuse with those and also chronic infidelity. So with that, welcome to the show, Dr. Weiss. I'm really excited to have you here. - Hey, Laura, you know, when I hear the subject, I think, oh, that's going to be a lot of fun to talk about. For us, it's great for other folks, it's heartbreaking, but I'm really, really glad to be here if I can help educate folks. - Yeah, absolutely. Let's start at the very beginning because I'm just curious and I think a lot of other listeners might be curious too, what brought you to this line of work? Because like you said, this is some kind of heavy stuff. - I have the issues. I had some very problematic compulsive behavior when I was in my 20s. And what that resulted in was seeing the AIDS virus running around and I thought, wait a minute, this is a problem. I started going to 12 step meetings and realized there were a whole bunch of people who were having sex in ways that was going to kill them at the time. And I thought I know a little bit about meetings and program and recovery and sex addiction. Maybe I can help some people not walk over that edge. And so that's what led me to the masters and all the work and teaching. And I work with a man named Patrick Harns, who's really the founder of the field. My got to work with him. And then it just blew up from there. A lot of media, a lot of outreach. You will find me in Newsweek talking about Bill Clinton and that little blue dress, which tells you how old I am. But I've kind of been in the background this whole time educating, creating programs and writing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You said kind of been in the background. That really struck me because these are issues that I think so many of us kind of either want to put in the background because we're uncomfortable talking about them or we feel embarrassed or ashamed. And then when we start educating ourselves, when we start finding people like you, we realize, oh, we are most certainly not alone in this. Oh, I don't think that anyone is alone with the kinds of pain and loss and betrayal that accompanies these issues, whether it is infidelity, all the way to compulsive behavior. And you know, I think like many therapists, your pain is your pain and my pain is my pain. Pain is still pain. And so I think it's a loss and the hurt and the anger and all of that that brings us together much more than the issues themselves, like any addiction. Yeah, yeah, you're right. It doesn't matter what it is, it all hurts. One of the things that I really appreciate about your work is you get to the root of the thing that's happening, whether it is porn, whether it is infidelity, whether you really work hard to get to the root of the issue. So what I'd like to do now is kind of talk about what are some of these issues and is there a common root? And if so, how do we go about figuring that out, figuring out what is the problem? Well, I will say there was just meeting with some of our patients today. I go in the clinic and I do work with them. And there's always a question about why, why am I like this, what kind of person I am, who would do this, what is it about me? And while I value that question, and I'm glad to respond to it in some way, I think what's more important to me in the work is how do I stop? Because, and I, as a therapist, we endlessly want to talk to people about their past, and I think that's useful and important. But on the other hand, I, as I said to the clients, I could show you a frame-by-frame real of your entire life. And you would say, oh, that's, I can see, yeah, that makes, and you would still act out, and you would still be an addict. So my first priority in treatment is to help people understand the issue and find their way out. My first priority with spouses is for them to come to terms with the grief that they're going to be experiencing in what they have to face. I will say that, I think there are two elements that relate to any addiction. One is a genetic makeup. And we are beginning more and more to see, and I did a wonderful podcast with a one by the name of Evelyn Higgins, who is a, what are those people who study, a genetic cell? I don't know what she is, but she studies genetics, and she has, there is pretty clear evidence of the markers in DNA where alcoholism, for example, can be seen. And so there is absolutely a nature component to the vulnerability of this, like depression or anxiety. But the other piece is how we grow up. And there's a real interplay between those, because you may grow up with the gene that may make you depressed. But if you grow up in a very nurturing stable environment, that gene may not express itself, and that may not. However, most of the clients that I work with, they have the genetic issues, and then they've grown up in extremely problematic and painful environments, and that stressor and the internal leaves them to choose, to ending up with choices for emotional survival that a healthier person might not choose. That was kind of convoluted, but I hope it made sense. - Yeah, and I was gonna say, I just wanted to break that down a little bit, because what I'm hearing you say is, it's both nature and nurture. There is the genetic component, we are wired for it, but depending on what happens in our childhood, in our life, we can either go down that path or not. So what I'm also hearing you say is, we're not predestined. It's not like, well, it's not my fault. I was born this way. - Well, and you'll have to explain to me what you mean by predestined. Maybe I can understand that better, and I'll answer your question. In other words, well, let me try it this way. To me, it's a difference between someone who is not a good person, and they intend to cause harm, and someone who's a broken person. And most of my clients come in, and they hate themselves. Despite the excitement and fun, and addiction can be fun, when it works, that they've had out there, they are miserable by the time they get to treatment, they realize they've heard other people, they have a lot of shame about it, and so they basically come in and say, well, I'm a terrible person, and I'm an awful person, and who would do this? And I try to get them to, well, you're actually a broken person, that you have real problems related to the past, and you have acted them out in your adult life. I think to me, the defining thing is intent. If I intend to hurt you, not such a good person, if I hurt you inadvertently because of my own emotional challenges, then I'm just a really troubled person who has the wrong path. Are we predestined to do this? No, there are people with addiction gene who it never expresses themselves, someone with a depression gene, where they might just be mildly unhappy sometimes, and then there are those where nature really hits you in the face, I'm sorry, where nurture really hits you in the face, and you end up in those situations. Cortisol, stress hormone, not such a fun thing. - No, no. And that answered that very, very well, and I appreciate, especially as a lawyer, the idea of intent, and the intent to cause harm is absolutely different than an unintended consequence of your behavior, and yet still, the harm remains. - Well, certainly the harm to the family members in this spouse, you know, to me, as a spouse, I don't care where I came from, I don't care what your problem is, I don't care, you know, for the most part, they're so angry and feel so personally violated and betrayed as they should, that having empathy for the person who caused the problem and desiring insight is not necessarily where they are coming from. They want to understand the problem in general. What does this mean? Where does it come from? How do you work with it? I think spouses of sex and porn addicts are the most researched population I've ever met. They read every single book, they listen to every one of my podcasts. They are well-educated. And by the way, I wanted to speak to that. I think that, and you'll have to bring me back to the subject 'cause I wonder, but spouses, I think, partners of addicts in sex act in particular, they want to know everything they possibly can. They want to read every book, they want every podcast, and then when they're talking to spouse, they want to this, they want to that, they want to this. And I think there's an idea for a lot of spouses that if I hear this answer, if I learn this thing, then I will feel better. And, you know, in most cases, if you learn about the infection you have, you'll feel better, you'll understand it. But in this case, spouses of partners are asking questions that are not gonna make them feel better. The more they learn, the more they want to learn, the more they learn, the worse they feel. So, actually a consistent sort of drilling down on what is this, and what is this, and what happened, and where did it happen? Well, the idea of it makes sense that, well, let me say it this way. If you just tell me this, I'll feel better. Well, I'll tell you this, but then you'll have another question. And then because what you're looking for is safety and comfort. And if you get the answer, you'll feel better, but the reality is the safety and comfort doesn't come from the answers. It's, as I say to a lot of spouses, welcome to crazy, it's your new norm. You know, it's a tragedy. And I shifted to spouses, and I apologize for that, but their journey is a really painful one. Yes, and as the spouse, I can relate to that. You absolutely do keep seeking answers. And you think I can figure this out. And yes, it is control. And you do hit that point where you just realize, I can't change any of this. I do know enough. And this knowledge is not empowering me. When you learn something that empowers you to make a different decision, that's enough. When you're learning things and it disempowers you, that's when that point of diminishing returns happens, and you have to just tell yourself to stop. It's its own kind of addiction in a way. - Well, I think that it is trying to become uncrazy. You know, this has made you crazy. And let me just go back and say that I do think spouses have a right to understand what has happened. And I do think they deserve answers to what has been going on and what hasn't, and where it's happened and where it hasn't. But every single detail may not be as helpful to them. This isn't really what we probably are a little bit down the road. But I do want to say that there is really something called betrayal trauma. And in my world of therapy, we would call it an attachment rupture. It is like someone died. And in truth, the relationship that you thought you had has died. And I think the most significant thing that spouses struggle with is trust. Because when you're married or you're in a committed relationship, my assumption is when you go out the door, Laura, that you would never do anything that you know would hurt me. You would never choose to do something. You would at least always have my back, you know. And then to know that the person you love and who's there to respect and support you has made decisions out in the world that they know will cause you harm emotionally and they've chosen to do it anyway. Well, then you can never look at them in the same way again. And in fact, every time they go out the door, you'll be wondering something rather than expecting them to come home and be great. And I think that is the worst part is the breaking of trust. Trust is the backbone of any relationship. You're trusting me to know what I'm talking about and be able to be helpful. That's a part of a relationship. If you didn't trust me about it, I wouldn't be here. So at every level, I think the breaking of trust is the most profound challenge for a loving spouse. - And that does bring it right back home and right back to what we were talking about. Why would somebody do that? Why would somebody leave and do something that they know is going to harm their spouse? - Well, I think this is the real struggle for any partner who's been betrayed. We're sick people, we're troubled people and we have learned early in life to compartmentalize, to put our life into boxes. And so I do think as an addict, what she doesn't know, what he doesn't know won't hurt them. And as long as I can live this double life and one doesn't cross the other, then I can get what I want to need here and I can get what I want to need there and everything's going to be fine. And the truth is when I talk to any spouse about their experience, I do consultation. So I'll sit down with spouses and their partners for a couple of hours. And one of the first things I ask a partner almost always is have you felt like in many ways this was a non-intimate relationship? And I'm not talking about sex. I'm saying, did you say, oh, you know, I'm upset about this and your partner said, I don't have time. Or did you say, you know, I really want to get together with the family and, well, I don't see a reason for that. Or are you upset about something? No, I'm fine. In other words, this consistent response from the addict of disengagement and kind of, can I push you aside? And the issues, which least spouses feeling very alone. And I've heard a lot of partners say, well, I just adapted to the fact that my relationship was going to be kind of empty in this way. And he or she wasn't going to talk about their feelings and they weren't going to go into deep and meaningful issues. And that's just the way it was. But that is the tipping point in me of the problem. It is not just, in fact, I'll say this, I read a ton of letters when we have people at seeking integrity in treatment. And I only treat men. The spouses, if they're women, write us a letter and they write a letter about what they've been through with this husband, let's say. And we look at it as an opportunity to help them grow to hear the spouse's word. Now, you would think reading hundreds of letters from betrayed spouses that in this arena that it would all be about sex. You know, you had sex with this person. You did this and how could you? It always surprises me that 80% of the letter is, you wouldn't talk to me. You wouldn't be open with me. You didn't let me in. Or even if you had a porn problem and you told me, I would have helped you. It's you're leaving me in the dark, not trusting me enough to work together that has been devastating. And of course, there's a long history of non intimacy and non vulnerability. And by the way, I'm busy, I'm at work. Why do you, I don't have time to get into this stuff and I'm tired when I come home or on either side. But then the spouse just learns to expect less and less. And that becomes their norm. Can I say something about kids? Yes, please. So two things. Kids pick up everything and they feel everything. So a non intimate relationship, when they see that, they certainly reach conclusions about what a man is, what a woman is, what a relationship is. But when I ask them and I work with, have you been a good husband? Married heterosexual men. They will say, no, I absolutely haven't been a good husband. And then I'll say, well, have you been a good dad? And they'll say, well, you know, I went to the games and I did this and that and I took them to this class. And you know, I read them bed stories and the bedtime stories. So I've been a good dad and my response to them is, but if part of being a really good father is supporting your wife, supporting your spouse, leaving them not feeling anxious, not feeling distant, then you're having good to your kids because if you hadn't supported your partner, they haven't been able to be the best parent that they want to be. And so therefore, no, I don't care how many games you showed up at your job is to support your other spouse in the caretaking of your kids. And that wasn't their priority. - That's an interesting disconnect, isn't it? - The guys hate it. They hate it. 'Cause they, I know I've been a crappy spouse, but I think I've been a pretty good dad. What do you mean I'm not a good dad 'cause I didn't support my spouse? You can't separate those things. You can't say, well, I wasn't, I was a good dad, but I didn't support my spouse. You can't, those things happily come together. So anyway, the men don't like that. - No. - Because they want to hold on to something that makes them feel good about themselves. And dad is one of those things. - Yeah. - Okay. They want to hold on to something that makes them feel good about themselves. Most humans do, most of us do. We've already talked about they're, an addict is a broken person. Nobody wants to stand up and be like, "Hey, I'm a broken person." So let's talk about this whole treatment. How do you get somebody to face themselves, to own up, "Hey, I am broken. "I wasn't a good partner. "I wasn't a good parent." And not completely crumple. How does that, bringing them to the reality, then launch them into stepping into their power and seeking integrity and going forward? - It's a great, great question, Laura, because it is the, as I said, the initial issue that most men walk and treatment for, is I hate myself in a machine because I'm a bad person. And if I can move them to things happen to me, and that's why I ended up this way, then they're going to be able to look at everything they've done with a sense of tragedy and horror, but they can take it from a place of, "I am really done some horrible things "that I didn't mean to do "in terms of hurting other people." So we talked about this before, but I think the step is reducing their shame, that they can begin to look at it clearly. It's very important to me that the addicts I work with have a really clear understanding of the consequences of their behavior. I don't want anyone to feel ashamed, but if you can't take in what your behavior has done, then you can do it again. And what I say to the guys who come into treatment is, you know, you may go back to seeing sex workers, you may go back to your affairs, you may go back to your porn, but you'll never do it in the same way, 'cause you will always know how this is affecting the people you love, how this is affecting your career. I think another way to look at it is that we all have life goals, and many of the people I work with, they want to have a happy family, they want to have a good relationship, they want to succeed in school or at work, and they cannot reach their goals because they have this problem they cannot get rid of. And I was just talking to a guy who came into treatment today, and he said, "I tried, and I tried, "and I tried, and I tried, and I tried." And I said, "I wasn't gonna do it again, "I wasn't gonna do it, and I did, "and I just realized I can't fix this." Well, you wanted to talk about the addiction itself, and I wanna make sure that we have time to do that. - Yeah, yeah, and it all rules into each other, but okay, let's start at the very beginning. What is the difference between really an addiction, and somebody who is in a bad habit of drinking too much, and then they reach out to sex workers, or somebody who's not in an intimate relationship with their partner, you've already talked about that, there's some vulnerability issues, whatever, and I use porn, whatever, who cares, I use porn. What's the difference between using some of these things and an honest-to-goodness addiction? - I'm writing some notes. I think the out-of-control issue comes into play, which I was just talking about, is I drink too much, I get in my car, I get pulled over by a police officer, I get in a lot of trouble, and I say, "Well, I never wanna do that again. "I'm gonna get it as a Native driver, "I'm gonna get somebody to pick me up." The addict says, "Well, I'll drive down a different street. "I won't drive a car that's red. "I'll come down at a different time of day." The addicts don't take responsibility, they externalize it. And so sex addicts will say, "It's my wife, "it's my, I don't have enough sex. "You're getting too much weight, "you don't have enough time for me. "I'm working too hard, "because as long as they can put responsibility "for their craziness on something else, "then they don't have to really look at changing it." You asked a bunch of questions, by the way, and I'm gonna try to answer them in the best way I can. It's much easier for a partner to understand alcoholism, especially in the times in which we live. Maybe 40 years ago, not so much. But I can go to my neighbor and say, "You know how it's really sad? "My husband and my wife, "what are they drinking? "They're really struggling, and they're in treatment." And generally that person will say, "Gee, I'm really sorry, can I support you? "How are you gonna take care of yourself when they're away?" But when it comes to sex, it's of course a completely different issue, because of the shame that the culture carries. I'm not gonna go to my neighbor and say, "Gee, my husband or wife is a sex addict, "and I'm having a hard day." In fact, I think one of the hardest things for spouses is they don't know who to talk to about it. They're not gonna, because you know what? Once you tell somebody in your family, Thanksgiving dinner is never gonna be the same. - No, it's not. - But sex addiction, I'm sorry, you go ahead. - I just wanted to clarify this too, for listeners. Sex addiction and an abuser, that's different. A sexual perpetrator is not a sex addict. Where are these little Venn diagrams of what is all of that? - Well, I would define a sex offender, or someone who violates someone sexually, as very simply is engaging in non-consensual sex. I pushed you into doing something you didn't wanna do. I looked in someone's window. I touched them without permission. The Harvey Weinstein story, you know, all the way down that road. Sex addicts are engaged in consensual behavior. Their spouses may not have consented to what they're doing out there in the world, but I pay a sex worker. I'm having an affair partner. I'm looking at porn. The interaction is in and of itself consensual. And so the idea, and that is, you know, by the way, the way, certainly the #MeToo movement, and I think we do need to look at what is offending. It's different in state to state. How old is someone, how not? But are they able to give consent? Do they give consent? Is really what defines offending to me. Sex addiction is the seeking of comfort, feeling valued, feeling important, feeling desired through the method of being sexual. And it's someone who's desperate need of attention validation. And those of you who have partners like this, you know, they are endlessly wanting credit. They are endlessly wanting to be right. They're endlessly wanting to run the show. And that's because of their vulnerabilities. You know, it's interesting when I hear, oh my God, they're married to a narcissist. You know, they're the just most awful. And I think, but on the flip side of that, they are so incredibly insecure. They are constantly having to prove how important they are because inside they feel so not valuable. So sex addicts are running around, having sex with different people looking forward, whatever it is to feel a sense of control and to feel desired without having to take any risks. Because if you are my spouse and I go to you with vulnerability or need, you may not be available. You might be with a kid, you might be working. You might say, I don't have time for you tonight. No sex worker's gonna do that for me. No affair partner's gonna deny me, make me feel bad, be unavailable. It is controllable. I am going to put something forward and I'm gonna get something good bad or at least something that feels good. The problem is that those are non-intimate interactions. And when I say intimacy, I really think people don't understand this term. Inimacy is not about sex. It's about making yourself vulnerable. If I tell you something that you might judge me for, that you might not like, that you might not agree with, I have made myself vulnerable to you 'cause you may disapprove, you may not like it, you may not agree. If I just say, I'm gonna do this anyway or I don't tell you, I don't have to make myself vulnerable, I don't have to deal with your reactions. And by the way, addicts will use the term, they will ask for forgiveness rather than permission, which is, I will go do it, what I want to do. And then later on, I will say, I'm sorry. But to make myself vulnerable and say, is it okay that I do this or how do you feel about my doing this means that you might say no. And I want what I want as an addict. And so I will be non-intimate. I will not open up. I will not make myself known, non-intimate, in order to be able to run the show the way I run the show and not get any negative feedback. Anyway, sex addiction is the repetitive, sexual behavior of whatever kind it is for that person that is causing consequences, they are unable to stop. This is not about, and I want to be very clear, it's not about orientation. So if I'm interested in men or women or something in between and I hate myself for it and it feels out of control, that's orientation. That is, this is a very silly comparison. That's what I like to eat. That's who I like to have sex with. And I, I may not like it, but it's not changeable. It's part of who I am and I need to come to peace with it. If I'm into being tied up or I want to sniff women's feet or that is an interest I have, it turns me on. I like it, I like to wear women's panties when I have sex. But that doesn't mean it's an addiction. That may be an enduring part of what turns me on. Addiction is really not about who I have sex with or what kind of sex I have. It's about the way I am living out my life in terms of sex, lying, cheating, manipulation, gas lighting, making sure that I have the freedom to do what I want to do whenever I want to do it and make sure that I can get away with it without consequences. And those consequences are very profound and yet I don't stop. You know, like that alcoholic, if they said, "Oh, I was driving drunk." And the answer to that is not driving when I'm drinking anymore, good answer. Addicts, well, it's because of this, it's because of that bad answer 'cause then I never really have to address the problem. I will tell you and I go on and on, so I'll stop. - No, it's good. - The predominant issue that brings people into treatment is one thing and one thing only and that is the threat of a loss of a relationship. 90% of my referrals in our residential treatment center are from men gay or straight who were threatened with, "If you keep doing this, I can't do this anymore. "I'm not gonna do this anymore." That spouse has set a boundary, not for you. You do this, but I will not be around. I cannot take this, I am not safe in this environment and I won't be able to be in it if you continue. And initially people come into treatment to save their relationships. I quickly try to help them understand it's about saving themselves. Who do you want to see when you look in the mirror? You know, who do you want your children to see? In your spiritual life, how does this affect your beliefs and your morals? Anyway, it's all about how I live my sexual life, in secrecy, in hiding, rather than if I make a mistake, I change it. Then you mentioned affairs. Did you want to, you were something about that? You wanted to say, I think. - Yeah, you had mentioned something about people, maybe you might go back to the behavior, but you will feel differently about it because you won't understand the consequence. - Or partners. - Yeah. And I was thinking, you know, that's really interesting because you talk about the affairs and the chronic affairs. And that's one of the things that women are always thinking, how do I know he's not going to do it again? And yes, people are going into this residential treatment. They're becoming a better person. They're able to look at themselves in the mirror. They're having all of this awareness. And yet still, this is a powerful addiction because when somebody has been broken. - They're always broken. - Yeah, you don't necessarily let go of 50 years of severe trauma in a 12 week residential program. So let's talk about how that unfolds and how that works. - Or less. I mean, we will see people through three or four weeks. And by the way, the rubber hits the road when you get out in the world. When you take the lessons that we've learned in treatment and you start putting them into your life and applying them. And that really answers your question to me is, I don't think that if I've been an active addict, especially a sex addict and I've lied and I've cheated and I've manipulated and I've blamed you, I don't think you should believe anything I say. - Yeah. - Anything, anything, at least to a certain, maybe over time. Yes, you're picking up the groceries. Okay, I believe that. But what you can believe is what you see. And so what matters to me is that addicts, who knows they have a chronic condition, which is like depression or diabetes or alcoholism, sex addiction is a chronic issue that will reestablish itself when the person is under stress, whatever that is. Are they consistently going to support groups? Are they consistently going to therapy? Are they consistently taking steps and actions that tell me that they are committed to healing? I may not believe what they say, but I can believe what they do. One of the things that I ask guys to do is to put a real piece of paper, real piece of paper on the refrigerator and every day of the week, what I'm going to do for recovery Monday, Tuesday, I'm good at the meeting. I'm good at the therapy. I'm going to call someone in the healing process and be there for whatever that is. And that spouse can literally look at their refrigerator and say, oh, okay, I know where they are. It's three o'clock they're at a meeting. I know it's four o'clock they're in therapy on a Tuesday and seeing that consistent process of attending to it ongoing. I don't say, oh, I've been good for six months. I'm not going to do this and not going to do that. In fact, I think I know that the greatest thing that causes relapse when someone has left residential treatment is they don't do what they're told. We will say based on your life, you need to do this. Go to these and you need to go to that therapy. You need to do this. And for some reason, when they get home, well, I don't feel like doing that and I don't have time for this. And then they're right back where they started. So it is the consistent commitment to change through action that keeps that person stable, keeps them knowing where they're at. As someone else can say, I think you're on the crazy side today. And that's what will ultimately bring peace to a spouse is you seeing me embrace a different way of living. Yes. And I say to Alice, when they come in, how many of you work 60 to 70 hours a week, half the room raises their hand, guess what? You're not going to get to do that anymore. Because when you're so distracted by stress and feeling so important, you can't do the work of feeling. And it is work and it is ongoing. And by the way, one of the things that we do, you do is reduce your stress and working eight hours, eight hours a week does not keep you time for self reflection to be available as a spouse and all that stuff. So there are some very concrete instructions that they're given. And by the way, the spouses know what these are. You know, that was my next question. Yeah, that was my next question, because when you're in a residential treatment program and you're living it and everything is designed to support you, then you get home and I am not blaming the spouse by saying this, but the spouses behavior has not changed. And there's all of a sudden, all of these triggers, it feels like that could be very overwhelming to step back in to a relationship. And all of a sudden be the one person having to do everything differently. Well, and I think the spouses, this is all new to them for the most part. You know, maybe I knew you did this five years ago. You did that. I was talking, I was doing a consultation, I was talking to a spouse. And I said, when did you first figure out that they were doing this, your husband? And she said, well, five years ago, he had an affair and he did this and that and we had to deal with it. Then I figured we were done with it. What he knows is he's never stopped. And he was doing it before they met and he was doing the beginning of the relationship. So he has a big picture of what he's done. She has no idea. She thought it was this or she thought, when she hears that they've been married for 30 years and for 30 years, he's been cheating, acting out, you know, for the spouse, it is just such an incredibly devastating moment because it's not just you I don't trust, it's me. How could I not see this? What's wrong with me that I didn't notice this? How could I have let myself, what's wrong with me that I let myself believe this and be fooled by this person? And you know what my answer that is, by the way, 'cause I am not a codependency fan. I'm not interested in saying, well, it's your history and what your mother did to you. I think the reason that spouses stay with us is 'cause they love us. Whether you're an addict, you know, if I had cancer, you wouldn't probably leave. You would say, I love them, I'm gonna help them. If I have alcoholism, you're not staying 'cause you're codependent. You're staying 'cause you love me. And I actually think that our spouses see, and I mean partners, wives, whatever that is, they may still see the best in us, who we could be, who we could become. And I think they hold onto that for good reason in the hope that maybe we will again or can become the person that they always knew we could be. And in that way, my partner is an incredible gift to me 'cause they hold a vision for who I could be and what we could have. I don't think that's in vain, hoping for something that's never gonna happen. I think that's folding up the flag for what might happen. By the way, spouses who are, a lot of times partners get blamed because they're doing too much. Well, you're doing all the grocery shopping and you're working three jobs and meanwhile this person's out and having affairs and whatever and what's wrong with you. And the answer is, well, somebody had to take care of everything. And if our family's in crisis, and I gain 30 pounds and I stop having fun and I'm looking at what they're doing all the time and well, that's 'cause my family's in crisis. Who wouldn't do that? Who wouldn't nag? Who wouldn't complain? Who wouldn't? And yet for some reason, spouses are told, well, you should just stop all that and you shouldn't do that. And it isn't that way. When someone lets go of the rope, the other partner has to pick it up. And then we blame them for it. But why did you stop taking care of yourself and focus on this? Because our family was falling apart and who else was gonna do it? So it's interesting we're talking a lot about spouses. And I think it's very important for them to understand the addiction. Because one of the hardest things in this addiction is the personal betrayal. If you're an alcoholic, a drug addict, I can say, well, you've really got a problem and it has profoundly affected our family and I am so angry and hurt that you can't stop. But if you have sex with someone else, then it's very personal. And it becomes, am I not as attractive? Am I not as interesting? Is it, what is my failure that you-- - Right. - Go ahead. And with porn especially, porn is a betrayal. I did some research with a colleague of mine, 83% of women that we interviewed, about 200 of them said, my spouse is just looking at porn they are cheating. It doesn't matter to me on some level, whether with a real person or not. Because I feel like they're constantly comparing me to those people, I can never look like that. I can never have sex like that. That seems to be what interests them. It might as well be another person. So I'm gonna take on the porn issue for a second. I don't have any issues with porn personally. It good, bad, right or wrong. I'm not here to speak to how it hurts the people who are doing it or their lives. That's not my job. When it hurts families is it's the lie. It's the secrecy. I wouldn't mind if you looked at porn, except I found it on your computer and there was all this stuff I didn't know about. I walked by the room and I opened the door of your office and you're masturbating to porn when we didn't have sex last night. I'm not saying that couples should have it in their home or shouldn't, but the lies. The I'm just not going to tell you so I can do this is again, the destructive piece of the relationship. It's the lack of trust that we can agree that this is going to be acceptable or not. And whoa, the clients I work with who say, "Oh, I won't do this anymore." And they stopped doing it at home and then they just got to work and do it. So. No. Is the sex pleasurable? Yeah, it's the same issue. It's the same issue, whether it's porn or anything. It's lying about it. And like you said earlier, compartmentalizing? Betrayal. I am not thinking of, you know, one of the, I also have a podcast, right? And it's popular, very popular. And it's called sex, love, and addiction. Did you get my little plug there? Sex, love, and addiction? Yes, yes. And I did a wonderful podcast with a colleague of mine by the name of Stan Tacken. And Dr. Tacken is very focused on attachment and relationships. And I asked him, what does it take for people to have a really good relationship? It's a good thing for everybody here, right? Especially addicts. How do you form and maintain a good relationship? And the answer was very simple. He said, when one of you makes a decision, the thing you have to ask yourself is, is this good for us? Any decision I make that's meaningful, I'm gonna be late and someone else can pick up the kids or is this a good decision for me? I wanna buy that car and we can't afford it, so I'll just, you know, figure out a way to get it and not tell you what it costs. You may get the car, but is that really the best decision for two of you? And can I tell you my paint story? Please. 'Cause I'm an addict, right? Yes. So a few weeks ago, we need to repaint the living room and repaint the living room and the color is really gone. Now, my husband, he could care less, right? We get her 23 years, it's not his thing. He's like, I don't care what color it is as long as it's not peeling. But I'm thinking, this is really bad and I can't tolerate this. So he said, I don't wanna deal with the ladders and the people, you're just gonna have to deal with whatever it is. And I said, well, that's okay, 'cause what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna get people to come in when he's at work and paint these walls and they get the ladders out. And so he won't know. And then they'll paint another wall. And then, so it'll all get painted whenever you notice, because if I ask him, I mean, I get the room painted, I may have to live with this color forever. I'm a gay guy and a certain kind of gay guy. Those colors don't match, I'm gonna lose my mind, okay? But my husband could care less. What I realized was that I couldn't do that. That my healing and my recovery and my relationship meant that I had to go to him and say, this really bothers me and I did. And I really don't like it. And I know you don't want me to do it again, but I would really appreciate if you would be okay with that. And he said, you know, I don't like us spending the money and I really wish you'd pick the right color. And personally, I don't care. But if it's really important to you, it's okay with me. And what was most meaningful about that was my honesty. - Yes. - I may have in the past done whatever I wanted to, one of the differences for spouses and partners, you may go back to the porn, you may, I can't. But will you come back to me and say, you know, I got back in the porn last week. And so now I've got to double my efforts because no one wants to hear the treated again. No one wants to hear you got back in the behavior, but the worst thing is to find out about it. And one of the things that I feel that I hope the partners understand is that when I come to you and I tell you the truth, that's new, that's the new thing. It's not that I'm doing it perfectly, but I'm not leaving you in the dark. I'm not afraid of your reaction. And that is the key to the healing is the beginning of real honesty. My husband said to me, you know, years ago, you wouldn't have done that. And do you remember when you did this and that, you didn't tell me in how upsetting it was? I really feel good that you told me this, even though I hate that you're going to repaint this really. And that's what I expect is going to hear relationships. - Yeah, that's powerful because it is the small things. It is the small things. I can't remember who told me the story. If it was a client, if it was a therapist, I can't remember who said that, but they had a similar story with the husband coming home from the grocery store, and he forgot the milk. And he said, I forgot the milk, where his reaction normally would have been, oh, they didn't have any. It's a small lie, but it's the act of standing in the truth. And is there a consequence? - And you feel it as a spouse. You feel it, it's interesting. The men I work with will say, I don't understand it. My spouse has just some kind of witch. How does she know? - My wife. And I'm like, well, you're not that good, actually. You think you've got it, but they notice. And, but I agree with it on the other end of it, which is I worked with a man who was going to take out the garbage one night. That's absolutely true. And he didn't, passive-aggressive, forgot whatever it was. And his wife came home and she said, did you take out the trash? And he said, oh, absolutely. And of course I did, I promised you I would, but he hadn't. And she went in to wash her hands into the bathroom. And she looked out the window and she saw her husband coddling the trash thing out to the corner. And she came in to me and she said, I don't think I want to be married to you anymore. And he said, what do you, it was just the guy. She said, look, if I can't trust you to tell me when you forgot to take out the garbage, how can I ever trust you that you're going to tell me if you're with another woman? And so you're right, the smallest things when you've been betrayed become really important because you're trying to restore trust and the little things and the big things all add up. I really appreciate your stance on not being codependent too because yes, I will be with you and we can start restoring trust. Yes, I will be with you and I will make myself open to see what you are doing differently. I will be with you if you fall maybe once, maybe twice, I don't know, but it's that dance, it's that game. We will stay together and we will see if we can both do this or not. - Well, I have a stance and I've written a couple of books about this and I teach about this called Pro Dependents which really was hard to come out of my mouth and then all those, which is I am, I encourage dependency. I think it's important for me to look back in the day, it was all about individuation. You go to this program and you become the best you you can be. And if you put yourself in a bad situation, well, bad on you, you should know better. That isn't really helpful to relationships because I enter and I'm engaged in a relationship and I may not do it the best way I can, but my intent is right. I may be enmeshed with you, I may nag you, I may be what one might call co-dependent and acting out things for my past. But that's not really what's happening. You don't need to look at me and look at what's wrong with me for nagging, complaining and you need to look at what's right about it, which is why am I doing this? I'm trying to keep my family intact. I'm trying to keep us together. I'm doing the best I can in a very limited situation with every tool I have. And by the way, when people talk about co-dependency, I think, well, how many spouses went to graduate school to study addiction? Why would you expect that someone's gonna come in, oh, I can't keep a bottle in the house or I shouldn't do this, or I, they're doing the best they can. And I gotta tell you, spouses go into a treatment center with the addict and they finally get the addict into treatment and the spouse is thinking, okay, I can relax now and I can begin to understand this and get support and they walk in that room and they say, now let's talk about what's wrong with you. Let's talk about your co-dependency. And I don't think that's really what brings a spouse in. They'll examine themselves because they think that's the thing that they need to do, but what they really need to do is be cheered for. How amazing is it that you hung in there in this difficult situation? What a powerful, loving person you are to do that. That entire flip and putting co-dependency on its ear to say everything you did was with the right intent and everything you did whether loving or not came from loving. That's a complete 180 from co-dependency and I believe it. - I believe it too. I completely appreciate that you take that stance as well. And where I bring that back home to is when you talk about working with the addict and your goal is to get them to like the person that they see in the mirror, to respect the person that they see in the mirror. I feel like on my side of it too, I'm six years out with my addict. I still have to like who I am in the mirror. I have been powerful and loving and supporting it. I've helped him deal with his trauma and I've learned things, I've looked at myself and I also very clearly know that I have got a line and that I have to respect myself and in the future if something happens, perhaps I will leave. Perhaps I won't, I can't make that determination now. But for the last six years, his actions have shown me that he is interested in this, that he has created change. He has become a different person. We have had a different relationship and I'm thrilled with it because it is the relationship I always wanted to have but never knew how to get. - Or that I could get or I knew what it was like 'cause I adapt to what things are. I did want to say something about leaving 'cause I think it's really important that if you do this again, I'm gonna leave you. Or if you lie about this again, I'm gonna leave you. You gotta leave because what you're telling me if you don't is, oh, they're gonna make threats as an addict. They're gonna make threats and I'm gonna get away with it anyway. That's good information. So threats, make them if you want but make sure they're not idle threats because you're gonna have to follow up and if you don't, we're gonna run all over you. - Yes. - Another thing I have to say to sex addict spouses, you talk about leaving as being a sort of if you do this and yet, and I was talking to one the other day and she was saying, well, I'm not ready to kick them out. I'm not ready to leave, you know. So I don't, what else am I gonna do? And I said, well, are they sleeping in your bed? Oh, yeah, they are. Are you still having sex? Well, yes, we are. Well, maybe the first place to start would be we don't have sex now. Maybe the next place to start would be you need to sleep somewhere else. I can begin to set boundaries to keep myself feeling safe that don't necessarily have to do with leaving or staying. Nothing that profound. I think one of the challenges for partners is this delusion, illusion. If I have more sex with you, then you won't go out and do this. You know, if I have sex with you, if I completely keep you completely satisfied. And trust me, and I know spouses can't possibly understand this. It's not about you. It affects you, but it's not about you. It's about my insanity and how I live my life and justify craziness. And by the way, I made you crazy. Little by little, it's the frog in the boiling water. Well, you're going to have to get used to this and you're going to have to use that before. I know it. I just accept the way things are. But I really wanted to say something about cheating and the difference in that in addiction. And I wrote a book called "Out of the Dog House." Cheating man's guide to healing relationships because in my experience, no man I have ever met. And I mean ever understands how to heal cheating when they've cheated on a woman. No. Well, flowers, well vacations. Oh, my favorite one. It's been three months. When are you going to get over it? Men don't understand universally what betrayal does to a woman. And the universality of it. It isn't just that you cheated on me. It's like, what are our kids? What about our family? What about all of that stuff? And so one of the things that I relate to around cheating is a man who cheats is immature. The man who cheats does not understand the meaning of the connection doesn't keep the spouse in mind. What I mean is when I go shopping and I see a shirt that my husband of 23 years might like, I don't just think I'm going shopping for me. I think he might like that. I have him in mind. So when I go out and I cheat, and I'm not talking about endless affairs, but I'm talking about I cheat in some way, it's because I'm not mature enough to understand the meaning and the value of our connection. I'm not mature enough to understand what it will mean to you if I do this. - Yes. - That's different than a sex addict. A sex addict cheats, but they're doing it to comfort themselves, to come some kind of escape. You know, we have this term in therapy called secondary gain. And I really like that. So if you and I are going to dinner and with some friends and you have a glass of wine and you're not an alcoholic, you're doing it to relax. You're doing it to get a little social, to have a few laughs, to loosen up, whatever. But if I'm an alcoholic, I'll have that drink and I will loosen up and be relaxed, but I'm not drinking for the same reason you are. I'm drinking to escape. I'm drinking to disappear. I'm drinking to become more comfortable with myself. So I have a secondary gain. People will say, well, why don't you just stop drinking? I had a drink, I drive people crazy. I'm not an alcoholic, I have half a glass of wine. And that's all I want. And the alcoholics look at me, don't you want the rest of that glass of wine? Well, no, if I drink it, I'll get a headache. They don't have the same goal as I do. They want to obliterate themselves with alcohol and they look like everyone else, but they're not. And so with the sex addict, I might have an affair and look like that guy is immature and just makes the mistake, but I do it over and over and over and over again because it's not about that. It's about me feeling important and me feeling valuable and me feeling in control. And I can never get enough of that, just like the alcoholic and never get enough to drink. So the cheater is immature. The person who obsessively and compulsively does it over and over and over again is someone who is deeply troubled. And you don't know that unless you see history. Should we talk about the drip, drip, drip of disclosure? Yes, yes, because that is very traumatizing. So if I'm cheating on you and I'm an addict and you find something on my phone, I'm going to say, nah, nah, it wasn't really there. It was a pop up, whatever. And then I might say, oh, okay, fine, it was there, but there was nothing else. And I will do everything to convince you because I don't want you to find anything else. And then the spouse feels like, okay, I feel like it was in a free fall, but now I know what the foundation, now I've got something underneath me and we can go up. And then they find a letter or they find something in the computer or they hear something or they see something at a phone bill and they confront the addict. And what the heck is this? I don't know what you're talking about. Well, okay, there was that too. And then the partners in free fall again, because now they just don't know, you know, what's happening, where they are, how to rebuild. And then they start to do it again and they find out something else. So it is a nightmare for a spouse to hear a little bit here and a little bit because the horror never ends. I have to say, on the other hand, addicts will in a moment of shame vomit all over you. Let me tell you everything I've ever done. And then I feel so much better. I've even had an addict say, you know, I think she will feel better. I just told you everything. Why don't you feel better? You told me you wanted the truth, you got it. Why are you still so upset? Because we don't have empathy. We don't have compassion and insight into how what I'm saying you're doing is gonna make the other person feel. And can that empathy and compassion really be learned? No, I don't think so. And I'll tell you, as someone who is an addict, who had an awful upbringing, when I was young, through most of my childhood, and I mean early on, there wasn't a lot of compassion or empathy for me. You know, I was shoved in the corner because everyone was dealing with what they had to deal with mental illness in my family. No one talked about it. No one told me what was going on. No one really comforted me. It was more like go to your room. And so I never learned what compassion and empathy was because I didn't have it. And so the time I would have learned that, which meant I was two, I was four, I was seven, that's gone now. And my brain is pretty hard set when I'm 34. I may not ever, and I can tell you as someone who has issues, I still will say things that I have no idea how much is going to upset you. The difference is, is that I have learned how you react. I must have said something wrong. I don't say, well, why didn't they just get over it? I say, something hurt them. So I can look for and learn the signs of when I'm acting non-impathically, when I'm acting in a way, and I can see how it plays out with someone else, I can listen to what I'm saying. I will learn how to manage my problem of, you know, part of what we do in treatment at Seeking Integrity, our residential treatment program for men, there was another little, little, is I, men will come in. This is a great example. And they'll say, oh, my God, I've been such a horrible person. What do you mean? Well, I can't believe I did this to my wife. And what was I thinking? And I, I haven't, you know, I've really let everyone down. And who would ever trust me again? And they're crying and, you know, say, could you stop all that? Well, what therapists tell someone not to cry? Because these are crocodile tears. What you're not saying is, I can't imagine what my spouse has gone through. I can't imagine what they are feeling. I can't imagine how violated I'm thinking about how bad I feel. And that is not compassion or empathy feeling awful for what you did is awful for yourself. Yeah. Teaching someone that what matters is, how did that leave the other person feeling? And when I make my decisions about the paint, that was an empathy and compassion-built position, which is I'm going to let you know. I'm going to let you in on. It's important to me that you know, you may not like it, but you know. And that is compassion for how you would feel if you didn't know now. Do I natively say to myself, oh, I'm going to tell them all about the paint. No, I natively say to myself, how can I get away with this? Right. Because I don't want to risk that I might not get what I want, but it is empathic and compassionate to say, I'm going to tell you, you may or may not agree. I'm not wired that way. I don't immediately think how will it affect you. What I think is, this is what I want. But the rigorous practice of being in therapy, going to 12 step meetings, working in recovery, doing service has taught me that the way to healing is about us. Right? I have to, I'll say again, I was going to buy an expensive car once and we couldn't afford it. We just couldn't afford it. And so I thought, well, I'll take money out of our savings and I'll put it down in the car. So that way it won't look as expensive and I can lower the payments and then I can go see it. So I had all kinds of ways of talking about it. But what I decided was I was going to tell my husband that I wanted to buy this car and he said, you know, we can't really afford it. And I was like, well, it's the car of my dreams. That's what I was wanted, but we can't really afford it. So then, of course, I had to call our tax account and say, what do you think? Can we afford this? And he said, well, number one financially, no. And he said, number two, in terms of your relationship, karma, bad idea, listen to them and what they had to say. And the empathy and compassion was because I took them into the consideration of my decision. Mm hmm. So I'm hearing it's learning how to have the awareness as the addict. I don't think in the way that maybe other people think, here's the new way of thinking, and I need continual reinforcement and support in order to think this way. And then I have integrity with myself. Then I could look in the mirror and love who I am. And addicts don't make good decisions on their own. Mm hmm. So this is why we're not cured. The way I think about me first, and I want what I want, is how I think it's not going to change. What does work is if I have a fellow companion in recovery, hopefully a man who's also working on this. And I can say to him, you know, I was thinking about getting the room painted and lying and, you know, doing it this way. But at least I get the room painted. What do you think? That person is going to say, you know, I don't think that's really very good for your relationship. I'm not thinking that way in the moment. This is why addicts cannot do it alone. What do we say? Your own best thinking got you here into a treatment center. And the way I think about addiction, it really is a mental health issue. Mm hmm. You know, it's like depression. It's chronic. It reappears under stress. You have to maintain an awareness of that you don't want to get out of bed, that you don't feel like, you know, you have to be able to see it coming in all of that. And in that way, it's not that dissimilar because it is a chronic emotional condition that needs to be managed throughout my life. And one of the ways that addicts manage it is they keep meaningful relationships with other people they can turn to when they're going to make a decision so that you don't make a bad decision. That makes that makes eminent sense. And I really appreciate the reframe around that because it's not this magic bullet cure. It is chronic. And I love the relational piece because my belief is we are relational animals and we do better with other people anyway. So that's absolutely true. We are meant to parabond. Yeah. We are meant to create a nest. There are biological reasons for that. The world is a brutal place. Mm hmm. And two people together are going to have more opportunity to protect themselves and do well. In fact, that's the whole idea of community. When we come together and we support and we protect and we are much stronger together, that's those back to caveman. You know, if I had the fire and I invited anybody around and I was a lot safer than that person over there who was sitting with a friend, you know, or whatever caveman did. Yeah. So what else can I answer for you? I think, by the way, you and I, we could talk for three days. I know. I was just going to say, I really feel like I want to keep going on for another hour. Well, let's come back. Let's do more. You can never talk enough about this. Yeah. Yeah. We'll do more. Yeah. Let's do more. And for now, we're pretty much at time. So what I would really like is for you to share where people can get ahold of you, where they can find, get consultations both for the addicts, both for the partner and all of that good information. And then we'll come back with part two. Or three or four. Yeah. So my name is Dr. Rob Weiss. If you look up Dr. Rob Weiss and sex, I will come up right away. I've written 11 books about these issues. And I would say ones in the last five or six years, the most useful. All my books are on Amazon. I have a podcast. I think we have 1.6 million downloads, which is sex, love and addiction. It is about all of these issues. And I think your interview might be on there somewhere or it's going to be. So I interview all kinds of experts about infidelity and relationship, all of that. Reaching me directly. I run a treatment center and an online program called seeking integrity. And so that's one word, seeking integrity. We give away. So I'm Rob at seeking integrity dot com, right? And one of the things I really want to say before we stop is that I truly believe in my heart that most people will not get to see a fancy therapist. And many people will never make a 12 step program. This is why I do the podcast. This is why we have on seeking integrity, we have 18 free groups a week. No charge. I have therapists moderating them for betrayed younger spouses, betrayed older spouses for addicts. I want people to get the information that don't have the resources. You and I are blessed. We can see a therapist. We have good insurance, whatever that is. But you and I know most of the people will never, ever have the advantages of this. They may not even have time to read a book, but they can listen to a podcast. And you can go to seeking integrity dot com. You can join a group. It's anonymous. You can listen. You can learn their endless webinars and trainings. And then there are paid courses, you know, sex addiction one on one or betrayed partners one on one or because I do think the educational piece is really important. So it all comes down to, I think it's above my head who I pointed the right thing. Seeking integrity is where you can find me. And I think this is my eighth treatment program. And I hope my last. I want to make, I want to retire. Let's somebody else do the work. This is hard work. I will say, let me say one more thing. I say this to my clients all the time. If you are a family and you have kids, I'm not doing this for you. You know, I like you. I hope you have a good relationship. I'm a believer that people can come together and make it work. But I do this for your kids because they will have an experience of an upbringing that will be entirely, if I can help your dad be a different person and act differently, your children are brought differently. And that to me is the most meaningful piece of all, if you have kids. Yeah, we can make big changes in ways that we never thought. And you are by the well, by the well. Laura, you are also making meaningful changes to every single person listens to this. So thank you for taking your time to do it. You're welcome. Thank you. And yes, together, hopefully we can. One person, one step, one generation at the time, raise awareness, decrease the shame, and just get people talking. Because I like how you talked earlier about that vulnerability and the intimacy. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just all have a heightened level of intimacy and understanding with our friends, with our families, with our loved ones, with our neighbors, with the whole world. That's truly where things would change. Just tell the truth in a caring and nurturing way, having them in mind. And it's a really good step. I look forward to coming back. Thank you for asking me. Absolutely. I look forward to our next conversation and listeners. I think you might want to even listen to this show a couple of times. Have an amazing week. And always remember to flaunt everything that you are. Because who you are is always more than enough. Tune in next time to flaunt. Find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. With Laura Cheetle, every Wednesday at 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on syndicated Dream Vision 7 radio network. Uncover the truth of what's possible for you on the other side of betrayal. And develop the skills and strategies necessary to embrace the future and flourish today. Download your free Betrayal Recovery Toolkit at www.betrayalrecoveryguide.com. (upbeat music) [MUSIC PLAYING]
