(upbeat music) - Fan, morning, twenty-four, seven, five, nine, and then it's brain gunning. I don't give time checks ever, usually. - Okay. - Seven, oh two though. - Just noteworthy 'cause we're gonna talk to Justin Borne, a real kipper in Borne. - Good morning, Borney. - Good morning, everyone. How are we doing today? - All right, yeah, as good to talk to you. - It's the first time I used my voice, did I sound okay? - You sounded wonderful. (laughing) - It's like, we're happy to have you on. We don't try and bother you too much. I understand it's tough for people to do the morning show, but usually we give people a choice of when they wanna come on. You wanted to come on this early in the day? What's your problem? - Yeah man, it's the only time I can make it work. I'm the morning dad. I got lunches to make and daycare to drop off. I got stuff to do. We gotta get it done early. - You don't do lunches the night previous? - No, I'm not serving my child, unfresh food. It's gotta go. - Oh, yeah. - What? Hold on, I guess sandwich sitting in the fridge for like eight hours. Oh my God, what an egregious thing to do. - Oh, do you keep your kid in a dungeon? (laughing) - They hold sandwiches? - Well, I mean, if we're just gonna add to his parenting bona fides, he did take his kid to his first leaf game this year, which was great by him. It was when they got absolutely hammered in Buffalo. So Ben is just, he's on fire right now. (laughing) - Yeah, good segue 'cause at least you're gonna play the savers tonight at home. I guess let's start here 'cause we had the discussion about, hey, evaluating who we think the game one starter will be at this point in the season. It's hard to pick because Samson off looks so good on Saturday. Joel Wall looked pretty good in his first game back against the Coyotes. How would you evaluate it? Put a percentage chance on either guy starting game one of the postseason at this moment in the season. - I think it's like a 70% chance. Wall is game one starter in the playoffs. I just, you know, I thought last night really tipped their hand about what they're trying to do with these remaining 20-some games. I think maybe it's down to 20 games now, roughly. You know, it's, they, Wall, or sorry, Samson off had played great. You know, this is a big game against a Boston Bruins team that they, you know, points mattered and they could have like, you know, give, pulled them within four in the standings. And they said, hey, we prioritize giving Wall these looks against a premier opponent, potential playoff opponent, about getting his game in shape. So I'm not sure that Joseph Wall gave them the best chance to win on Saturday night, but I think they thought it gives them the best chance to win on April 19th. And that's why he got to start the other night. - Yeah, that's, that's where I've been at. Ben posed the same question to me and boy, I feel good about your answer because I said 65. So you're going even higher than me. That makes me feel so smart. - But Samson off at 51% by the way. - 'Cause he's a coward. That's why he's stuck so close to 50. But so I'm with you. I just think you just listen to everything they've said the whole, the whole time. And they've never been completely blunt about it, but they've been pretty blunt for a team that, you know, and it's coach speakers across all sports. You try to muddle the message a little bit. That's been the one thing, if you read between the lines, they've been pretty kind of crystal clear on. One thing I wanted to ask you about is maybe a change in, I won't say organizational philosophy at the deadline 'cause every year is different. But obviously there's a new guy in the chair for so many years at the deadline. There's been talk and obviously it was 10-fold last year with going to get no Riley and a Chari. But these winner guys who have been in the room and been deep in playoff runs before, maybe they've won cup runs or won cup rings. How important do you think that still is to this group? Do you think there's been a change in that? Is it just kind of the state of the team that were not hearing that talked about as much? Because it feels like that was the chief thing that was of need heading in all these deadlines passes. Yes, there was a position of need, but the guy needed to check that kind of leadership box as well. And I just don't feel like we're hearing that as much. Why do you think that is with the group this year? - Yeah, I don't think that's a priority at all. And I think that's just a matter of, the guys aren't young anymore. Like this is year was there eight playoff run of the Marner Matthews era they're gonna be going into. And at this point, if you can't get through with those guys pulling on the rope, like you're not gonna win. And so I also, it's almost felt a little bit unnatural at times when they're like, all right, we're the Leafs, we're Matthews, we're Marner, we're Neilander, we're Tavares, and they're like, but here's Joe Thornton. And it's like, what does he have to do with this? I don't know. Is he the leader? Like it just felt like an extra from a different show had joined to this one. It's like, it's the crowd you're losing hauling. Woo, yeah, yeah, oh, didn't see that crossover coming. You know, like it just, it hasn't felt authentic. And so it just has to be, it's always had to come from the core of this team for them to have success. So I'm glad that they're not gonna go say, oh, now that we went out and got this old guy, that's gonna fix everything. - Well, and also, this team is now playoff harden. They know how to win, they won around last season. So they know what it's about. - They know what it takes now, Ben. - It's coming. Anywho, yeah, so I think a lot of people are focused very much on the Max Doney Center of it all when we head towards Friday and whether you wanna mess with that and whether that's the perfect iteration of the four groups. And maybe we'll talk about that in a second, but I am interested, it does feel like, and I know Timothy Lilligren in an overall sense has taken a step forward and at times, he and Brody together look great. Monday, not so great. Like, how comfortable are you about Timothy Lilligren well, one, playing in all the playoff games, which doesn't happen for him in a postseason run and two, playing like in a top four role. - You know, he has greatly helped by the fact that he's right-handed, isn't he? 'Cause if you're left-handed, I don't think this is much of a conversation. - He should be rathmasandine. - Well, yeah, that's exactly right. So I'm not super comfortable to answer your question. I think if the way that he has kind of worked is you can say, yeah, when he's on a third pair role against lesser competition, we start him in the ozone, 65% of the time. His numbers can be pretty good, but I think a lot of people can in that situation. And so, yeah, he's just not built for playoffs. And I think sometimes I sound like I'm beating this drum a little bit too often, but like, I just don't know when you put him on the ice. Like, is it to protect the lead? It's not, you know, he gets 20 points a year. It's not to go, or 30 points a year, it's not to go score. So I just don't know what his utility really is. And that's a challenge 'cause he makes some glaring mistakes, but he doesn't make up for it with this other element that you're like, oh, well, at least we can put up with that because he does this. So yeah, he's their six D at best to me. - So does that push you to say you need to go get Savard? I mean, he's kind of the easiest answer in that spot. Right shot has won, has played in the playoffs before. Does that mean you need to go do that? 'Cause the way I look at this now, and maybe they don't look at it this way, is they've kind of got two pairs set in terms of, you're gonna go with McCabe and Ben Waugh, and then you're gonna go Riley and Labushkin. And it's about figuring out who the partner is for TJ Brody, unless you're getting crazy and moving his money out to bring a whole lot in. Is it just as simple as to you as saying, just go get Savard then? That's the guy that makes the most sense. - Yeah, like I'm not as 100% sold than what the pair's exactly would be, but if you did have Savard, you look at the D and you just go, all the pieces fit better. You have a couple of penalty killers. You have some guys who can help you protect the lead and block shots. And then, you know, for one of the things that people have complained about with the Leafs, that they're not this like physical team or whatever, if all of a sudden your D has Savard, Labushkin, Ben Waugh, and McCabe, you've got four guys who run into people a lot, you know? And that's, that is appealing to me. So it's not Vegas, it's not Petriangelo and Theodore and these puck movers and whatever, but some, you know, the 2017 Penguins want to stop with, want to come up with Oli Mata and Brian Dumelen and you know, like it's possible. So yeah, Savard makes sense and is definitely an upgrade. - And Sidney Crosby. - Oh yeah, right. How do you think, how do you think Sheldon Keith feels about the Bertuzzi-Domey knee-lander line? - I hate it, I think he hates it, but he likes what it does to the rest of his lineup. Like Tavares, Yarnkrok and McMahon has been excellent and I think he loves that and he loves where he is, Tavares slotted, loves the top line and eventually you're just kind of left over with these other puzzle pieces and there's not a whole ton of different ways to assemble them. One thing I've said that I'd like to see is Domi getting some run where Matthew Knises and then finding another solution at center there. Like just, it doesn't work when you have three guys in Bertuzzi, knee-lander and Domi who have no defensive conscience, who have highs and lows and great games and bad games and whatever and you just don't know what you're gonna get from them. I think they need someone with a little bit more consistency and a conscience to help out guys like Bertuzzi and knee-lander 'cause yeah, Domi is your two C in center is not a winning formula. - Yeah, it is, I guess it's just about prioritizing what you wanna get, right? Because we've said it there. You'd like Savard, obviously, Henry 'cause the guy who'd kind of fit the most there, I know you guys have been talking about this. It's been the thing that's been, you know, big topic conversation heading into the deadline, but just how aggressive should they be? It feels like you gotta kind of pick a lane here. Yeah, they're gotta say, all right, the first round's on the table and I don't know, maybe a guy like Minton too, if we're gonna go nuts or you gotta sit back and wait 'til the very end and go pick and scraps. Like, do you think they need to be uber aggressive? And you know, I suppose it's a little late to jump the market since we're two days here, but how do you kind of look at the two paths for the Leafs? 'Cause I think they're gonna add, I don't think they're gonna do nothing, but I can see a world where they just kind of wait and pick up the scraps at the end of the deadline. Yeah, and to me, if you go wishy-washy like that, you don't make yourself better enough to think you're gonna win, but it still costs you. You're still buying and spending assets and it's like, that's kind of the worst-case scenario. So I do think it's one of those things that like, if you're going in, you kind of gotta go in here. And like, I'm just gonna say the quiet part 'cause we'll just whisper this right now, but like, Minton has 19 goals. You know, like this is not, he's a 19-year-old who was on Team Canada this year. He's only scored 19 times in junior this year. You're not giving up Gretzky, you know, like a user, he's an asset that he might be a third liner in a couple of years or something, I don't know, but you know, I think people get excited about the idea of guys, you know, and what they could be, obviously Minton making the team had a people, had people really excited, but yeah, if you gotta move that shift to get yourself to do the big all in, then I think you'd be okay with it. - God, it's amazing how differently our opinions have shifted on this team and the philosophy that Brad Trilevinc should employ headed towards the deadline throughout the course of the season. I guess it's generally the case throughout the course of a leaf season and us doing this eight times, but I don't know, Barney, you've been doing this a while as well. Like, does it feel like we've vacillated more on this leaf team than any other in the previous seven years? - Yeah, it does, but it also feels like the league is just so, you know, up and down, you know? Like, you've had a nine game winning streak from the Seattle crack and who are gonna miss playoffs, an eight game winning streak from the Predators who are gonna miss playoffs, like it's like any team at any time feels like they can kind of get hotter, they can lose a bunch and it's just a very strange NHL year to me, we desperately need the salary cap to go up so it can stabilize a little bit, but yeah, it's a weird team, but it's a weird league this year. - Hey, if there's ever a cup, the Leafs are gonna win, it's gonna be a weird one. - Yeah, honestly. All right, last one before, like, y'all, I mean, we just talked about, hey, how Bradford Living doesn't want to put the crosshairs on him so early in his tenure, but considering the fact that it's as wide open as weird a year it is, and he does do like the wishy-washy middling thing where he just takes whoever's defenseman is available at the lowest cost and the Leafs do bow out meekly and like, oh man, it's Timothy Lilligren making an error in a spot that he shouldn't be in in the postseason. Isn't that putting the crosshairs more on him than maybe taking a big swing and giving up something for David Savard? - Yeah, it's a really good way to look at it, is that the middling halfway thing is actually makes you look worse 'cause it's not like people like us weren't out here going, you know, we've identified problems. This is clearly a problem. If you don't fix this problem, it'll cost you. So the one I'm looking for the most, you know, as a concern is their penalty kill. You know, Lilligren's out there on the PK sometimes and he's just not, he can't defend the front of the net and their PK is 22nd or 23rd in the NHL. Like if they don't get a body or two in that can help there, when they give up four goals to the Boston Bruins on the power play, no one's gonna be able to say didn't see that coming. - No, and they are the worst penalty kill of any of the Eastern Conference teams. All right, Barney, thanks for waking up for us and enjoy pushing the kids out the door this morning. - I'll take a whole weed on Ryan. - That's what I'll say. - You gotta, thanks for having me again. - See you, buddy. Justin Bourne of Real, Kipper and Bourne. I think it's a really good point that I bring up. - Okay. - As I mean, of course you do. - As I normally do. Yeah, we can talk about, hey, Brad's for living not wanting to use his bullets and boy, you don't want to do the same thing. You don't want to do the Nick Felino thing and the first round of X for rentals. And well, first of all, look at the going rate and look at the number of teams that are in the same market, looking for right hand shot defensemen as him. And that just might be the going rate for somebody who's going to impact your blue line, who does not have contractual term remaining, might be a first round pick. I guess you just might not be able to get it without using your first round pick. - Secondarily. - Yeah, hey, don't let Monday cloud your picture of what this Leafs team has been over the last couple of weeks, three weeks, and since they've figured out John Tavares' proper role on this team is the third line center where he scored four on the last seven games. This team looks maybe not at its best over this eight years, but certainly at its most intriguing and that you would pass up on an opportunity like that with a clear need and just say, eh, it's too risky to do that. We've done that too often in years previous and I don't want to be on the hot seat immediately in my tenure. I think that inadvertently could put himself on the hot seat this off season. - Yeah, there is definitely an element of that. I wonder how much, and I guess it depends on how locked in you get on these things, how much mileage this carries with you, is that how much have people bought into what, Buchola has been telling us all year long that if you're going to do anything this year, your first rounder is useless. And useless is a strong term, but the idea of just dropping off a cliff after 20. Now, I want to be clear where I stand on this is that I guarantee you in three years we're going to look back and there's going to be two or three guys from 20 to 35 in this draft where you go, ah, did you have to give up this guy for rental acts? So, away it goes. But I do wonder how much people now buy in to that idea of, eh, first round pick isn't as valuable. You're not giving up, if you're the leaf, say, first round pick. It's a first round pick in name only. It's a late second or an early second is kind of the way you look at it. I do wonder how much people have bought into that and how much that kind of buys him the ability to take a big swing without it feeling like one or costing him that bullet in the chamber. - I mean, what would you feel better? - And maybe this is obvious, but I mean, Warren brings up a point that like, we're talking about Fraser Minton as being like an untouchable or close to that untouchable class because he factually played the NHL this year. It plays up the middle. But like, aren't we talking about a guy that like, if he has a David Camp career, we're like, yay. I think that's strong. I think David Camp is a, I shouldn't say that strong. I think that's a little bit low for what you'd expect him. The guy's a cap like, I am where everyone else is, little down on what the player is, but it was played in the NHL this year. They wanted to give him that look for a reason. He's the captain of Team Canada. And I know what happened with that team this year. And I know how he performed in that tournament. And I'm not saying he is some untouchable, but I just think that he is a guy that you shouldn't be looking. This shouldn't be a prospect where, 'cause teams do do this. The Blue Jays did this with Austin Martin, where they said, hmm, this is a prospect who has value, but he will not very, very soon. I don't think you need to be doing that with Frazier Minton. I'm not saying you can't trade him. I'm not saying he's some untouchable. I'm not saying you can't use him for even the right rental or a package of rentals. But I don't think you should be looking at him as we have to spend this piece before it turns into a lesser asset. 'Cause I think a lot of people are, they're not saying that specifically, but I think a lot of people are kind of trending that way with how the players view it. And I don't mean the Bucholas of the world, but I just mean, you're having these conversations. It does feel like people are going, yeah, yeah, throw in a pick. He's like, ah, throw in Frazier Minton almost at this point in time. And I think the pendulum just swinging, I touched too far with that one. - Okay, who would you feel more comfortable giving up? And I guess this one's obvious to you, I think. - Nick Robertson for Frazier Minton. - Oh, Nick Robertson. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean, despite the fact that he's actually stuck in the NHL times of the season. - And he's 22 years old, right? So what's Frazier Minton gonna be at 22? - Maybe Nick Robertson's entirely basketball. - And you know what, maybe Frazier Minton's utility is that like the ceiling's not so high that you can have a player that can play for you in a bottom six role, be your third line center down the line in a responsible role on this team and is not gonna break the bank. He's not gonna have you bent over a barrel and you come to figuring out his restricted for agency years. - I think that's the other thing that people get so bogged down on with prospects and especially first round picks. And especially one who starts in the NHL, the way he did and has the pedigree of captain of team Canada. I mean, people get so bogged down the idea that every first round pick has to be. And look, it's first round pick you want them to be. You can still have effective players who can play a role. How many years did the Leafs go spend first, second round picks on that exact player? Your Brian Boyle type. And I'm not saying Frazier Minton's gonna be Brian Boyle. He's gotta grow a few inches and become like the biggest man in the history of the world to do that. But that's what you, that's what you try to go get if you're a contender is that exact type of player of key cog who can, he doesn't wow you but does thing, you know, plays the game the right way and plays it on. It's not all the hockey cliches, you need those guys. So again, this isn't to say you can't trade him but don't be so quick to because he, there's a little sheen off him as opposed to when he started with the team at the beginning of the year. - Yeah, that'd be cool. - Mm. - If he was just good? - No, if the Leafs could hit on like a first round at a fenceman, did they drive him out? Travis Dermot was a second rounder and Raz was standing, I can't know. - No, you cannot say Travis Dermot because they moved back in that draft from the connecting spot. - Yeah. - So, you cannot. And I'm the biggest Dermot guy going. - And Timothy Lillegrin is factually playing in that top four for a team that's going to the postseason. And like I said, Razma Sandeen's playing on the top pairing for Washington Capital's team that might make the playoffs. - But the Razma Sandeen pick was gold. This is what did he become? - Cowboy. - Yeah, that's right. Who is now like the A, you're talking about the true untouchable and one of the prospects that's made the biggest leaps forward. And maybe Toby Namala will be this guy? - Yeah, I love having Josh Klok on the show. I cannot read him talking about Leafs prospects 'cause he gets me too excited. He does, he's like, "Eh, it's Toby Nam." 'Cause he had a great little back and forth with Siegel in the athletic. And it was, "Well, what about this player?" And, you know, again, probably doesn't work out this way but Klok makes the point. You know what hand Toby Namala shoots with? Yeah, it's his right hand. And maybe it doesn't work out that way but you give up that player and two years from now you're sitting there going, "That's the guy." You don't wanna have your, and hey, like Sean Dursey, that was a good trade, but go make that trade. Don't have it be just Toby Namala for rental acts, right? Dursey went in a camera witch, Campbell or a Muslim trade either or pretty good. - It was. All right, so we mentioned David Savard is one of the targets that Maple Leafs might be looking at and it's not like the Canadians and the Leafs haven't traded before. - Leaf legend, Thomas Mechanics. - Yeah, they've made some deals but obviously there's like, the Habs would prefer not to trade one within their division and two not with a rival. - I don't know, why? - I mean, well, I think the division thing is more pressing. It's not, and I guess it's not like the Canadians are expecting to compete next season. - I think they would like to be in the playoff mix and Savard is under contract for next year. - Yeah, I can understand that, but I don't think that this isn't, you're not trading, you know, this isn't like the Leafs taking a swing on Slafkowski and you're worried about him being in the division for a decade and, you know, torturing you. It's David Savard, like yeah, you would hope to get better. I think that where the two teams are on their cycle kind of negates that. - Okay, so then what do you make of what seems pretty clear that Craig Conroy ain't all that enamored with the possibility of trading with the Toronto Maple Leafs. And it's not like the Leafs are gonna get in on the Jake Gunsell conversation, I don't think. I mean, that would be a shocker. - Yeah, just clarifying. - Yeah, well actually let's start here. Okay, what do you think is more likely? - Sure. - And take the names out there. But like the Leafs consummate a trade with Kyle Dubas and the Penguins or Craig Conroy and the Flames. Well, I mean, I think until I hear otherwise, I guess it's still possible with Dubas and the Penguins. It's been pretty proven that you can't do that with the Flames. The Leafs tried to get in on that and it was pretty clear, I don't know if it's a Leafs tax. I don't know if it's a Brad for living tax, but there's clearly a tax involved there with that player. I'm not saying it would be Rosie. I'm not saying Kyle Dubas wouldn't love to stick the screws to the guy who in his opinion probably stole his job, okay? But we just haven't seen the proof of concept. I have seen it with Calgary. They've tried to kick tires and they were being, you know, it's like this is what you do in trade. You ask for exorbitant prices, but when push comes to shove, not the Leafs. - See here, I actually disagree. 'Cause I don't think Kyle Dubas is ever doing business with the Toronto Maple Leafs. I think he may try to go his, the entirety of the remainder of his career without picking up the phone and dialing up the Toronto Maple Leafs. Like he's probably going to have to be forced to at some point, but yeah, he would prefer never to interact once again with the Toronto Maple Leafs. I think it was, sorry, I just have to quickly add, I really think that public perception, and however you feel about Dubas, I do not think you can disagree with this part of it. I think public perception is so important to him. He is a very millennial GM. And like, I don't say that as a knock. I think you should probably be aware of how you're perceived publicly. - He's online, you mean? - Oh, he's online. - Yeah. - Hey, buddy. I'm so online it hurts, okay? So again, glass house, no shots. But I think that he is somebody who would want to be seen to be the bigger person, to be the bigger, I'm not, I'm gonna do what's best for the Pittsburgh Penguins and Fenway Sports Group. I'm not worried about past grievance is, just like I want players to put their person, personhood behind and we wanna be one team, I'm gonna do the exact same. Like I just think he is so aware of how he's perceived and it would be such a touchstone topic 'cause it's the Leafs and it's still him that I actually think, I kinda go the other way that push comes to shove. I'm not saying it happens now, but I actually think push comes to shove. He might want to do it just to say, yeah, look at me, I'm such a big boy. I'm so grown up. - Yeah, I say, I think there's just too much actual real animosity between he and Brendan Shanahan and the Toronto Maple Leafs and he that is not gonna happen. - I do think it was important for Craig Conroy's first couple of moves not to be with his former boss. Like I think that went from a public perception and maybe even like a personal confidence thing from Craig Conroy. It's, yeah, it's just, it's an achy start to your career in the big boy chair to be like, hey, hey Brad, like, yeah, and be all chummy. And then, you know, us having the discussions about, hey, was there a lesser cost like why? It is like kind of curious that this guy getting his first kick of the can sends Zadorov to Toronto. But now that Zadorov has moved and like more importantly, Chris Tanov is moved, right? Like that was the guy everybody had circled. Now that that's over, I think he's kind of proven his point. And not that the Leafs are like, are one of the counting double retention. (laughing) - Don't tell me with a good time, yeah. - Not that the Leafs are in there with the Bruins and the Lightning and the Hannafin discussion, but I don't discount the possibility and there have at least been reports that there was a package discussion of Chris Tanov and Noah Hannafin at some point with the first certainly involved earlier points in the season. But I think now that Craig Honroy has moved off a couple of guys that were clear Leafs targets and that I don't think anybody can have the opinion that there's gonna be some sort of weirdness or former boss and a guy that understands the organization and nudge, nudge, wink, wink. I think that we're past that and it's just, if the Leafs provide the flames with the best package for the player, I think that supersedes any perception stuff there. - I still think there's attacks and I don't know that it's about Craig Honroy. - But why? Yes, you're living. - Okay, so why should there be? - Well, I think it's the Leafs tax that you do business with the Leafs and it just becomes, like everybody in Canada's Leafs favorite team, I mean, you know, they're gonna set Battle of Alberta, but their second Leafs favorite team is the Leafs. It's just the way it goes. And I think that when push comes to shove, it's not that stupid. - It is stupid, but it doesn't - Doesn't it play in the same conference? - I understand, I know how it works, but I look at it and say that this isn't to say that if Brad's for living, let's say they have their meeting and they go, you know what? We're moving to heaven and earth, we're getting Hanifen. I don't care if it's a rental, that's the guy and I don't think that's gonna happen, but let's say they live in that world. Then I can see Conroy saying, all right, you can have them, but it has to be clear as day, the best offer. It can't be a little better, it can't be an extra pick. It has to be clear as day and if push comes to shove, have at it and you can go be a, and I also think part of what colors this is that there doesn't seem to be any belief that he's gonna end up in the Western Conference next year. So, okay, go be a lightning, go be a broom, however, however it works, that's the way I kind of see it with Conroy. - So why is it different than the Montreal Canadiens? Because there is like a more factual argument that can be made if you're a Habs fan that you don't want somebody in your division coming back to haunt you and you have played the Leafs recently in a postseason series and they are your historic rival. So like, why does that exist more with the flames than with the Canadiens? - I don't know, but we've seen the proof that they have made the trade with the, we've seen proof that they have done business before. I also think part of it is the winning cycle of it all. Its flames are, no, they're not ready to win. Like, we don't need to have that conversation here, but it's gonna be a while until things get turned around, but they feel like they're a touch closer because they have players. And I think Montreal is just so, and you know, every fan base has their people who are dying in the wool and they're convinced it's gonna turn around immediately, but it's just so far from being removed. And I also think part of it is that, now this is weird and it's just, I think they'd love having the Leafs first round pick and getting to twist the knife and being like, look at this guy, we got nice. I know you're gonna say, well, why doesn't that work in Calgary? - Yeah, I don't know, I just think it does. - I don't, I don't buy it. Okay, you don't have to. - It's just my theory, it's my Believies. - Yeah, you're the Believies. - I did believe that Craig Conroy Perception thing when it came to dealing with his former boss, but now that he's made a number of moves and yeah, moves off of the guy that it seemed clear was the number one target for the Leafs, I think. Yeah, they can make a move. Not that the Leafs would be involved in Hannafen, but. - Yeah, I just, well, we're talking about Hannafen. This will shock you just wanna complain for two seconds. Can we one day, one day, just having an NHL player saying I will, over my dead body, go play in America, get me to Canada, I need to play there. It just, it only ever seems to go the other way. And it's incredibly frustrating. We care more, we just do, and a lot of guys are scared of it. - Yeah, that's a bad thing. You shouldn't care about sports, it's just, you know, it's fun. You get paid your millions of dollars, and then you win, or you lose, and then you go home and you, you, you, I don't know, you drive your Bugatti, I don't know. - Yeah, I know, like I know you were on with Bunk yesterday and you guys played the Kelsey thing. And yeah, just like that whole speech, it drives me nuts. And honestly, the Hannafen thing, the idea, and, you know, who knows what if this is all true, it's a lot of smoke and mirrors at this time of year, but if it's true that he'd rather be in Tampa than Boston, that just tells me so much about the guy. One, look at where the teams are headed right now, and two, you know what it is. Like, you know what it means to be a Bruin, and I'm not gonna say it means the same thing to be a Leaf, but it certainly means a lot more than playing in Tampa and being a Lightning. So it just, it drives me nuts, I can't stand it. They're, hey, they're humans, they're entitled to work where they wanna work, I get it. And I wouldn't want somebody telling me where I gotta go, but guess what? I love doing this job here because people care. - Mm-hmm, here's where you gotta go to break, because when we come back, we'll talk about the Blue Jays. And with each passing day that Kevin Gossman doesn't pitch in a Great for League game, it seems less and less likely Lee, he will be starting in three weeks from tomorrow, the Blue Jays sees an opener in Tampa against the Rays. Where are we on Jose Barrios in year number three? - As a Blue Jays, that and more next. As the fan morning show continues, Ben Anis, Brent Gunning, sports that 5.9 of the fan. - Unrivaled insight, analysis and opinions on all things Blue Jays. Blair and Barker, be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Good morning, Joe, sports that 5.9 of the fan, Ben Anis, Brent Gunning. - Joey Votto. - Are you gonna be okay? And that is both a question for Joey Votto and for you. - Ben Anis, are you gonna be okay? - I'll be fine. - Okay. - Joey Votto, I need to, like these are happening in Toronto, these pictures, right? - Oh, you wanna, you wanna track them down? - Who is taking the pictures too? - Well, you don't think he has any friends? - No, I'm just curious. I am curious about how Joey Votto lives. So, let me alert people to what we're talking about here. - Okay, it takes a go train, he plays chess is a centric guy. - 25 minutes before midnight, Joey Votto tweeted out a solemn looking picture of him on a park bench. - Tweeting through it, man, I've all been there. - Eating what looks like a piece of cheese, but I don't know, I don't know what that is. - Hold on, I gotta pull up the picture again here. I think Brad, Chris Saunt, maybe. - Also weird outfit, like wearing jeans, but then like got the sport coat on. - Honestly, like I'm just gonna, like, he's not, he's not this, he looks like an unhoused person who found a blazer that was donated to him. - Yeah, well, I mean, the beard certainly plays the end of that, but yeah, he's a freshly shorn head. But, okay, a picture of him on a park bench. Again, eating, I don't know. - No, that piece of cheese on a bagel? - No, no, no, no, that's a thousand percent of like deli breakfast sandwich type thing, 'cause there's a foil wrapper beside it, and I feel like that's what you get those served in. - Yeah, he's got a coffee by his foot. - Yeah, and then there's like a bag. But then there's also a baseball bat leaning up against the bench. And the caption is, and like Joy Votto's looking down at his feet, like he's so sad. Caption is all lowercase, missing ball. So, obviously, Joy Votto, I mean, told us explicitly that he wants to play baseball this year, despite being 40 years old, despite having a very, very, very down year last year, coming off shoulder surgery. Joy Votto, unlike Josh Donaldson, who went into this off season, and now we've heard him go through the media car wash and multiple different interviews where he's talked about the process that he went through this off season where he's like, "Yeah, I was working out hard, and I got a couple of young kids and still trying to stay in physical shape in case somebody came calling. But then I realized I was spending too much time away from my family. And I don't know, I was kind of like open to the idea of it being over. And then the things that were being offered to me were not to my liking. So I said, "Yeah, it's over." - Right. - But Josh Donaldson didn't say at the end of last season, "I'm definitely coming, but I'm not done. I'm not going." He didn't say that. "I'm not leaving." Joy Votto said that. He said, "I'm coming back." 'Cause obviously somebody's gonna want me. - Obviously. - And I wouldn't have disagreed with that sentiment. And even still to this day, do not disagree with that sentiment. 'Cause here's the thing with Joy Votto. Is Joy Votto can be at spring training now for sure? Maybe not on his terms. Certainly there's something, there's an element of that happening here, right? Like that Joy Votto could at the very least, and this would be quite a way for a player of his stature to end his career. But he could be, as a non-roster, camp invitee, anywhere. Who wouldn't have Joy Votto? I mean, maybe the Blue Jays are honestly the only team that wouldn't, because it just becomes such a-- - Yeah, an abstraction. - And the red. So they're-- - That's what it's gonna say. I think they're also done. - Yeah, the 28 other teams though. You don't wanna bring Joy Votto in. If only for like, "Hey, Joey, can you talk to some "of our left-handed hitters about how to hit?" - Show 'em your ways. - Like be like a playing coach. So like obviously that's possible. But Joy Votto obviously wants more than that. And maybe even more than that, he wants like not even the Spencer Horowitz role, which I talked about, or the Daniel Vogelbach role for the Blue Jays. He wants, if he's gonna be a DH, he wants to be a full-time DH. This is obviously the course of his majorly career. It's not a platoon player. He can play against all hands. And that's not happening for him. And it seems like with each passing day, in each passing tweet, in each passing Instagram post, that removing closer to Joey Votto being forced into retirement, if he's not willing. Like if he hasn't accepted the idea-- - That's the thing, is it forced if there's a potential path and you're just not willing to take it? - But now that we're down the road in Spring Tree and gratefully games, like if you're a non-roster invite to, you wanna be playing right off the hop because these Spring games are meaningless and the results are meaningless, except for the guys that are trying to make rosters. And if that's what we're talking about for Joey Votto, the ship is sailed on that, I think. We might be in a situation that in a couple of weeks, Joey Votto comes to the harsh realization that Josh Donaldson was more open to than, hey man, like it is actually over. I don't want it to be over and it was an inauspicious way for it to be over. And boy, let's not compare the two careers of Josh Donaldson who won an MVP and was certainly an electric player of his era, but he's not going to a Hall of Fame. Joey Votto is and has a claim to be called the greatest Canadian Major League Baseball player of all time. - For sure. - Wanted to come back and play baseball in 2024, might be told, sorry, it ain't happening. Enjoy retirement. - Yeah, we've seen this happen where the stakes are just money. And I know like, I love money. So how dare I say just money. But we've seen this happen where guys over play their hand and they go, no, no, I mean, half with John Klingberg. We've mentioned a million times of the big deal was on the table. No, no, I'm going to try to hit market and all of a sudden, maybe you're not going to do that actually and you're going to take these one year flyer deals, but that guy's still, well, I mean, John Klingberg isn't right now, but those guys are still professional athletes and they're still, but when you overplay your hand to this extent, where is the path? You know, this isn't even a, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's entirely possible I am about this, but this isn't a starting picture where, you know, you're going to stay fresh and somebody has some injuries and you really see the need. There are just so many bats available at any given time and especially in any given org that can you see a world where somebody loses their DH early in the season and they say, oh, we got to get Vodil off the couch if they didn't want to kick tires on them already. I just don't see that happening either. So it's just, honestly, it's sad if that's what happened, that he just kind of overplayed his hand expecting it to come and it never did. - So here's the deal, Brandon Belt still available also. - Right, Brandon Belt's 35 years old and was actually good last year, okay? Brandon Belt was at times, and maybe the entirety of the season, Bluejay's best hitter, a season ago. I, if Joey Vodil was waiting for some, hey, guaranteed starting time, like being this opening day DH and being the everyday DH for a team. And he is not going to take anything less than that. As much as I love Joey Vodil and I do think it would be an interesting proposition for somebody to bring him in and give him that opportunity with the understanding that, hey, if this goes sideways, we're going to move on, but like, hey, you hit a bunch of home runs last year and maybe there was an adjustment coming off the shoulder, I'm making a way safer bet on Brandon Belt, who didn't say explicitly he wants to retire. Now, Brandon Belt was more in the Josh Donaldson mold from everything we heard from him at the end of last season, who was like, yeah, you could see a scenario where Brandon Belt went into this off season and I forget it. I'm just going to ride my boat. - Yes, you can. - He didn't say explicitly, I'm coming back, but certainly the season that he had, you would think and again, he's 35, he's not 40. He's like the third best hitter on a playoff team last year. - Yeah, I don't know. The Brandon Belt availability and Joey Votto not understanding that this would be the case at this point in the season. Yeah, maybe there was a miscalculation there from Joey that, hey, I guess now I gotta consider maybe being on a minor league contract, non-roster camp invitee thing, but I should have maybe envisioned that at the beginning of spring training as opposed to now where it's difficult. Like, even if he just parachuted into JSCAP, we already seen Daniel Volgobock take Garrett Cole deep, right? Yeah, is he going to beat out Daniel Volgobock in that role going forward into the season? I don't know necessarily and if he had been in that role at the start of spring training, I would have said, yeah. - No, let's see, Joey Votto do the Spencer Horwitz thing, but now we've seen Daniel Volgobock and does feel like he's going to come north with this blue JSCAP. - Yeah, I think it might be done. Like for Votto, that might just be it. I think it's just a guy who, again, thought a little, I don't want to say too highly of himself as a Hall of Famer. You can think however he wants, but it was just a guy who maybe thought there'd be more opportunity than there was and you don't want to take that. And hopefully this provides an opportunity as like a cautionary tale for somebody here. 'Cause you don't always get to write your own ticket. Like you very rarely do. We think of, especially with Hall of Fame players, we think of it as well. You know, surely the organization is going to let them write off into the sunset and he has two that he's kind of connected to. And neither one of them is letting him do that. You know, I know there's no actual connection to the Js other than the passport, but that's certainly a pretty big one. - Yeah, last thing on this. - Yeah. - It's funny. Like, you know, and maybe these tweets are just in jest, right, I enjoyed. It's like, it's not that great a look. - No, it's a terrible. So I will say our meme experts behind the glass have alerted us that this is like a take on like a funny Keanu Reeves, like being sad meme is what this is. So it's a little bit of. - But obviously Joey Votto's, like he's coming from a place of like, yeah, I'm sad. I thought this would be going differently. I thought it'd be at a camp. Like, and this is not the first one. Like he's had multiple things. - Oh, well, no, no. That's what I was going to say is that if this was the one you go, oh, okay, it's like a joke that maybe didn't hit. I'm sure it hits a lot of people didn't hit with me, but this isn't, it's been like tweeting pictures of shopping carts and it's just been weird. It's like, again, it just looks like a guy tweeting through it. And again, been there. Go look at my tweets during Leaf playoff games, but it's just pretty clear that's what's happening here. - Yeah. So we'll see. It's boy, it would be a very inauspicious way for a future Hall of Famer to end his career saying that I want to play and not being given that opportunity to even earn a way onto a Major League roster. Who knows, injuries happen and maybe Brian did, maybe everyone's just waiting for Brian and Belta sign. And then it's like they turn their sights to Joey Votto, but yeah, it's, we're late in the game here. As it was pointed out to me, today is two weeks away from the start of Major League Baseball regular season action as the Dodgers and Padres are playing in Korea. And then three weeks from tomorrow, the Blue Jays start their season in Tampa against the Rays. When they do so, I got to say, like, if we talked about it being 51%, that Ilya Sampson off starts Game 1 of the postseason series for me, I put it at 0%, Kevin Gossman starts on Thursday in three weeks. - Can we go lower? - Can we go lower? - I don't think that's what happens. - Mine is 100, yeah. - And not to, I don't even say that necessarily he's going to start the season on the injured list. Like, he might not. - Yeah, push him back to be the end of the rotation. - Sure, sure, sure, sure. And it's just a game, right? And he's done, he's done it before and it's an honor, right? To be that guy tabbed as the opening day starter. And I'm sure he would have loved to have done it. But there is a guy that's done it before on this team as well. And the last time he did it, well, unless I get it. - And it might have been a harbinger of the season he was about to have. In fact, it obviously was, 'cause it was his worst season ever. Jose Barrios, in his first opportunity, starting game one of the season for the Blue Jays, got one out. And incredible comeback victory for the Blue Jays over the Rangers. But yeah, that was his worst season. Where he had an ERA over five and you wondered what the hell of the Blue Jays gotten themselves into signing up for more than a half decade more of this guy. Since then, rebounded insanely well a season ago. And it's weird how perception is different between he and Usay Kikuchi. 'Cause I think people view Usay Kikuchi as like the higher ceiling guy because he has the like 99 mile an hour stuff from the left side. But Jose Barrios, last season, better than his career average ERA. Like that was Jose Barrios in full force. That's why you signed him to a seven year extension. And I just, I wonder what the general perception of is, he is of this player who felt like a coup to get at the deadline and then to sign a seven year extension. And then he has the season, he has two years ago, but then bounces back. Are we back to the same spot with Jose Barrios? - It's so interesting you say that. 'Cause when you make the case of just 99 left side, you saw what Kikuchi was last year. I'm like, yeah, I agree. But I, and part of this is, I don't know, baseball hits me in this way that other sports don't because you just, you go to more games generally speaking. But I was just in the building for so many nails. Barrios starts where they hit one against the twins or it's like 13, 14 Ks, something like that. And I feel like his ceiling is as high as anybody on this rotation. Like of course, Gosman, when he's right, it's still the guy you feel best about. But the best version of Barrios, I mean, yeah, it's not 99 from the left side. It's not much beneath that and I know he's a righty. But yeah, I would argue that Jose Barrios ceiling is as high as anybody. I would actually take his, I'd take his best game over anybody on this staffs. And that honestly might include Kevin Gosman because the difference with Gosman is, Gosman's so special because when he's knotted his best, he still gives you a great outing. Barrios, that's not the case with him. But when he's at his best, he has nails. That's why we were so mad. Do we forget what happened? No, I know. That's why we all got so mad but he got taken out of that game. - Yeah, as I was gonna bring up next, it's like not only did he return to form during the regular season. And again, never spending a millisecond on an injured list, which is boy. And you can quibble with the performance and certainly in year one of his first full season with the Blue Jays didn't go so well. But like part of, and a large part of giving him the seven year extension was the schedule just doesn't miss any time. He posts every fifth day. But yeah, also had the return to form during the regular season was Blue Jays best starting pitcher in the post season. And it'd be interesting to see how that game would have played out with him getting an opportunity to go a little deeper into it. But yeah, not a nightmare scenario by any stretch of the imagination to have him starting game one of the season. - No, the issue with him being your ace is the back-filling behind it. It's not that Jose Barrios can't be an ace for a very good team. He can't, he's not good at goal but there's only so many of those, right? - It's true. All right, time now for The Wake and Rake presented by Sports Interaction, your homegrown sports book, 19 plus bet responsibly. Leafs, savers. Tonight from Scotiabank Arena on Wednesday night hockey on sports nets, earning it 7 p.m. at last check, Leafs were giving up nine goals in Buffalo to the savers. But that was then, that was the before times, that was a lifetime ago for Ilya Samsonov who was likely to get the start in tonight's game against their division rivals. The money line has the Leafs favored, didn't crack the minus 200 barrier or minus 189. The savers plus 155, the total six and a half run. - I hate to do it, but I think he got to take the savers here until proven otherwise. They just have the Leafs number, the goalie they've got in their UPL, he's performing pretty well as well for them. And the Leafs are, they're a little Jekyll and Heidi, they got a big game on Thursday, we've seen them look past the game like this before, give me the savers on the money line. - Yeah, that's a pretty sound thinking. - Thank you. - You're gonna disagree. - The savers have won the last three meetings, is the underdog each and every time, they're always the underdog. - Of course. - And they'll be until proven otherwise. - No, until opportunity, I actually think. - But yeah, what do we know about this Leafs team is, every time they're counted out, they bounce back. Now, sometimes, it takes a couple of games I suppose, but boy, the discussion around that team, after Monday's game against a team that they will likely face in the first round, I think it got their attention to a degree that you'll see their best selves tonight. So I actually am okay, laying the goal and a half at +120 for the Toronto Maple Leafs. And that was the Wakenrake, presented by Sports Interaction, your homegrown Sportsbook, 19+ bet responsibly. When we come back, Jason Bukola, Sportsnet Hockey Analysts, as the fan morning show continues, Ben Ann and his friend, Gunning, Sportsnet 590, the fan.
