Here's another show you can enjoy in the True Story FM family of entertainment podcasts. What's up Supernatural Super Fans, I'm Chrissy Lenz. And I'm Nate McWhorter. And we're the host of... Gang Dang Dang! A Supernatural Drinking Game Podcast. It's the podcast where we make up drinking game rules for our favorite episode of our favorite show Supernatural. We recap the episode for you and let you know how all the rules played out. Then we let you know the drinking game rules for the next episode so you can play along. Plus, members get every episode early and add free. With some extra bonus content chit-chat at the end of each episode as a member exclusive. So download Gank That Drink, a Supernatural Drinking Game Podcast wherever the finest podcasts are available. And/or become a member at truestory.fm/GankThatDrank. And when you're out there in the world saving people and hunting things... You know, the family business. Keep the Gank That Drink model in mind. Be excellent to each other and... Our young dudes... I am... Ever wonder where the devil got his horns? How about those cloven hooves? For that pitchfork. Wasn't he an angel? No, he was a snake. No, he's the Great Red Dragon. No, he's the beast. He's the prince of this world. Prince of darkness. Well, he's the prince of dark. Good morning, Star Lovelies. One of my names is Lester Ryan Clark. And I sometimes go by Keenan Deus. And we're the hosts of the brand new podcast, The Devil's Details. What comes to mind when I say Lucifer? How about Satan? What about just The Devil? How did the big bad of the western world end up with so many faces? Join us as we dig up, decipher, and deconstruct the devil's many forms throughout history. Take a guided tour with Dante through the nine circles of hell. Or revisit Satan's angsty bad boy years in Paradise Lost. Learn the ins and outs of a Faustian contract. Easier than a 1099, but with a hell of a lot more fine prints. Lither on over to The Devil's Details on True Story FM. And join us in the diabolic discussion. Love and hisses? Why? Didn't Alpha Chino play him in a movie? I sure that wasn't Robert De Niro. Just one. It was Tim Cook. That was Elizabeth Kerr. Didn't he go down to Georgia at some point? Hello and welcome to this re-broadcast episode of the superhero ethics podcast. As I've mentioned, we're on hiatus during September, but we're showing you some more old episodes that we feel are still relevant to some of the great conversations we've been having lately and other things going on. In recent episodes before we went on hiatus, Paul and I were talking about the new Batman show. And so as part of that, we wanted to give you a chance to hear our episode about Batman the long Halloween. This is one of the classic Batman animated movies relevant to what's happening with the new show, relevant to the things Paul and I were talking about. And of course, relevant now that we've turned the corner into spooky season. Please check it out. And of course, please continue to be a fan of superhero ethics. Thank you so much. We have spoken. Hello and welcome to this episode of the superhero ethics podcast. Today, we're talking about a Batman animated story that appeared on HBO, an animated movie based on a lot of people's favorite comic run of Batman, the long Halloween. This story, you can see origins of the dark night in. You can see origins of the Batman with Robert Pattinson. And Paul Hoppy and I are going to be diving into it right after this commercial break. We have no control over. [Music] Welcome back. This is Matthew, your host, they then pronouns. And Paul, this is a story that I know you have wanted to talk about for a while. Batman the long Halloween and just give a quick explanation for folks. This is an animated movie you can find on I think it's an HBO plus primarily. There may be other ways to get DC movies. DC animation has been putting out a ton of animated movies primarily about Batman, some about Superman, some about more of the Justice League in general. There aren't really talked about much, but that Paul has really turned me on to. We've been having a lot of fun going through them. And we're going to really have a lot to talk about because it raises some of the fundamental questions of Batman and the Batman stories. And we'll tell you more about what the story is in a second. But first, Paul, let me just have an intro. Tell me more about like why it was that you loved the story and why you wanted it to be what we talked about. Yeah, so I don't really follow like what's coming out when and stuff like that. But when Lee and I were at her mom's last year, you know, kind of in the middle of moving, we technically didn't really live anywhere for like about a month, you know. And we were on our way to Vegas. We were, you know, browsing HBO Max and we're like, oh, this is out. You know, maybe she actually knew it was out because she like reads things in the news and whatever, but right. But so we just put it on and watched it and it was like, oh, this, this is really good. And then it was like, wait, that was part one. And then there's like a part two and we watched the part two, which, you know, conveniently actually came out the same day, which seems like it's interesting that they broke it into two parts. And I guess we could talk about that a little later. But basically, you know, it's, it's kind of like a three hour animated movie that covers the span of a year, you know, from Halloween to Halloween. And I just think it's the type of Batman story that is like my favorite type of Batman story and is fairly different from a large amount of, you know, other superhero fiction that we see on screen. And then just the animation, I think, is fantastic. And in terms of story, I think DC's animation is overall like, on average, the best stuff they put out on screen, you know, compared to say television, non-animated, and then like live action films. And I think a large part of that is because the bar is so much lower in a weird way and that they're not having to have this constant, like, first of all, the budget is much lower so they don't need to justify the huge budget. They don't need to have a huge mass market appeal. And just, I think in some ways, these movies are really helped by mostly flying under the radar screen because they're not therefore in the, you know, well, how does this compare to the other version of Batman? How does this compare to the Marvel movie that's coming out at the same time? How does this tie in all these things? It just gets to be a story on its own in a really great way. Yeah. And I mean, I think this is what you're saying, but in terms of the bar being lower, I think you mostly mean like financially, right, in terms of like how much money something grosses. And I mean, I guess in terms of- Yeah, like I said, the bar is low, I was not quite a man. I mean, it's more that like the outside expectations that don't really have much to do with the movie itself are mostly not there. Right. And certainly the broader population doesn't have expectations for what the thing's going to look like. I do think that there are a lot of people who are really into animation DC and specifically animated DC that occasionally something comes along and is highly anticipated and is very disappointing to most people, like say the killing joke, which I recently watched a thing about it and I was like, I feel like they're saying things about the animation. I'm like, I think the animation was fantastic. Like the story, you can have your issues with the story, sure, and in terms of how it was adapted precisely, but yeah, I mean, I think the expectations are amongst a smaller group of people, I would say, and you just don't have the same amplitude of the types of reviews that you're going to get and the types of responses. So I think generally that's like healthier for anything someone's creating, right, where it's just like, yeah, you get to do your thing, you get to say this is what we want to do, you do it the best you can, and then people will take it as they do as opposed to having huge expectations. You know, it's like a team that wins a championship and then the next year, you know, if they're like the runner up, then that's a disappointment somehow, you know? It's like, I feel like that's how feature films or like blockbusters are often treated. It's like, oh, well, is this a disappointment compared to such and such? It's like, why? Why is that even the conversation? You know, it's just like, can't the thing just like live on its own? Like, is this good? Is it not good? Do you like it? Do you not like it? So I, I, that's my very long winded way of saying, yes, I agree that I feel like this animation manages to not be a victim of expectations. And I think one part of that may be that this is a lot more kind of day in the life aspect of this. We talked about on the last podcast a little bit in terms of dread, well, I'm not sure what orders would come out in. It's one thing. But not even day in the life, but like, you're in the life, a year in the life. But also, this is not part of a very fixed continuity. And I think in some ways that really helps it because like, I love the MCU, I do like continuity. But I think part of what has gotten away from is, and I think in some ways, like the age of the internet makes this harder, but like, there used to be a lot of stories where it was, okay, we know who these characters are. And because we're going to tell you a story that isn't about a fundamentally changed moment in this character's life, it's just kind of about like the character doing the thing the character does, a lot of other characters doing the things that those characters do. It's okay that we don't know exactly where this fits in time compared to this other version of the story or if it a little bit contradicts that version of the story. It's just kind of a standalone story using characters that we know well. I think that's very hard to do in the MCU or like, you know, in DC. Now we have to have long conversations about like, well, the Robert Pattinson Batman doesn't exist in the same universe as like the Snyderverse or like this other thing. And we have a very specific about it because the animation has never been trying to be part of one whole unified universe. Like yes, this movie does tell the Harvey Dent origin story and it does tell the death of Falcone, but it also doesn't, it doesn't make pretensions to sort of be like a definitive story that everything else has to reference and I think that really helps it just be its own thing. Yeah, I agree. I do think that there are basically there are like runs of comics, right, which will have continuity with each other and then often they'll have some giant multiverse thing that's like, okay, sure, whatever, that like theoretically connects all of them. Like, I think DC has like 52 universes, exactly, but you'll get so, you know, and with the animated movies, you got a series of them that, you know, there was this one run of them that I didn't love them, you know, but they were kind of all in the same style and they kind of all had a continuity. And then there's like the Flashpoint story and then, you know, then it kind of reverts and then they just start making a new continuity, right? And so you do get these kind of series, but I don't think there's ever this sense of this is the, you know, definitive version of these characters, right? It's like this series of interpretations and, you know, this story, as you mentioned, the dark knight borrowed from it. The Batman borrows from it, right? Quite heavily. I mean, I, I think I somewhat jokingly referred to the Batman movie as the short Halloween because, yeah, it has so much from this, but it's a week instead of a year, which for, for a, for a live action feature film, I think a week or a day or two or three days, I find usually the perfect length of time. I think really extended movies don't work that well. The reason this works well to me is that, you know, the, the principal plot revolves around holiday, this like person who murders people on holidays and each scene or each sequence, basically the movies are broken up into segments that are each kind of like one day, right? And it'll be just a series of holidays. So it's basically like 12 days played across three hours. So you essentially maybe get 12, 15 minute segments more or less, a couple of them are shorter. Right. But yeah, I, I think the fact that there isn't this weight of continuity on this really lets it breathe more and lets them, one of the things I really enjoyed here is that they have so many members of the, the rogues gallery in it, right? And they're able to be bit players and you can kind of do whatever you want with them and it doesn't feel like, Oh, but that's not that character. It's like, no, that's, that's this version of that character. And if I didn't like any of the versions of them, like it wouldn't have felt like such a big deal. I didn't really dislike any of the versions of them particularly, you know, just a few things about like, well, why is Ivy like always working for someone else? She's like the most powerful of all these people and whatever, you know, like, so she doesn't have the depth that I'd like to see in her character, but like that's okay because this isn't like the poison Ivy. It's like, it's just poison Ivy in this one thing and she's a small part of it. And like, that's fine. And there's a lot of characters like the Joker, you know, similarly is this kind of minor character in this story that just, it makes it feel like it's Gotham, it makes it feel like there's this depth and there's this breadth without feeling like it's trying to be the defining version of anything. And I just find that really pleasant. I think that's a really good way to put it. And it kind of addresses something you and I've always talked about, which is that the part of the problem with these larger interconnected universes is that it doesn't make sense that a whole bunch of people never show up. And yet, you know, if you have a story where it would make sense for Captain America to show up for five minutes, but you don't have the budget for Christopher Evans to do, you know, four days of shooting to get those five minutes, it's hard to make it happen. But here you can do that. And I will fill in the details what the actual story is in a second. But it's, it's, as Paul said, there's a stuff that's happening. And so at various points in time, different characters make appearances. And in many cases, it makes sense why they're showing up for various reasons or another. As you said, some less, some of it's just because someone involved has hired them. And it's like, okay, that's fine. But like the Joker was my favorites because the Joker, like the minute the Joker shows up, a part of me thinks, okay, so this is actually a Joker plot on some level. And it's like, no, the Joker's just mad that this other cat, this other villain is getting so much of the headlines and attention. So the Joker's like, no, I got to try and fix this. I got to try to make it all about me. Right. Exactly. And literally winds up just like gas attacking a thing that half the city is going to be at because this is a Joker says like, yeah, there's a 50% chance that one of the random people I kill will be just this guy. Right. And then that way I don't have, I'm not losing the attention. Exactly. So perfectly for the Joker and it gives Batman a chance to deal with the Joker, but it isn't a Joker story and Joker doesn't take over the story. Yeah, totally. And yeah, and it just does that with a whole lot of characters, right? Yeah. Do you want to try giving a brief summary of the story so that we can like kind of fill things in as we go or do you want me to try to do that? Yeah, I'll give a brief summary. First of all, just in terms of the feel of the story, I want to say that like, it's a story where Batman does Batman things, but it doesn't really feel like it's a story about Batman doing Batman things, you know, like, like big, you know, gadgety, like huge fight scenes and stuff. Like that's in there, but that's not the focus. It's really, it's a mystery detective story. And it's also less of a story about Batman being a great detective and more about Batman becoming a great detective. And the basic premise is Carmine Falcone is like the big mob boss in the city. And then there's also Maroney, right, who's like his main competition and someone kills Falcone's nephew on Halloween, who actually was about to testify against Falcone, right? Against Carmine. And so the whole thing has this, you know, Harvey Dent, James Gordon, Batman, you know, trio of characters doing that whole dark night trying to bring down the Gotham mob, right? Which is like this very traditional mafia situation. And throughout basically throughout the year on every holiday or on one holiday per month, basically, somebody comes and kills someone usually part of Falcone's crime family, right? Or family actually, not even, they kill someone who's who's not really part of the crime family, who he doesn't want to be part of the crime family. But so it feels like it's this, you know, something against Falcone, right? Meanwhile, there are all of these, you know, costumed villains locked up in Arkham. And at various points, various ones of them get free, right? And actually, I would say that this is the story of, if you look at kind of the over story, the overarching thing, this is the story of how Gotham goes from being, you know, basically like a mobbed up town to a costumed villain town. Yeah. And there's a clear distinction between the two in a way that's really interesting, especially the perspective of in some ways the traditional kind of like you find in any, you know, Godfather, Goodfellows movie criminals are a lot worse or a lot scarier in some ways. Right. Exactly. And the, I think also like you could kind of look at it in the like D&D alignment sort of fashion where it's like, you know, you've got Harvey Dent and James Gordon who are trying to be lawful good, right? And then you have organized crime, which is lawful evil. And then you have, you know, the, the Joker and people like the Joker, which is like chaotic evil. And then you have Batman who's like chaotic, good, but everybody's kind of trying to work with someone else to further their own ends. And you know, Catwoman who's chaotic, Catwoman who's like somewhere chaotic, neutral to chaotic good. Exactly. And like, yeah, in this, she's more of, you know, she's more basically just like an anti hero, like Batman, you know, right. There are a lot of similarities between this Catwoman and the Batman Catwoman. And you know, at the end of it, not, not to give away necessarily the final story because I feel like we could kind of cover this without saying, you know, who, what the actual answer to the mystery is. But it's basically, you know, there's a serial killer and it's about Batman and others trying to figure out who that is while all this other stuff goes on at the same time. Right. Yeah. I think, I think it's important. I do want to say who it is because I think there's some really interesting questions around that that gets into some of the things, but we can have kind of like, that'll be have a spoiler section later. Okay. That sounds good. For sure. Right. I want to talk about just some of the different parts of it that I most enjoyed and the questions kind of raises it. You know, it's funny. We're talking about this. This will probably come out a couple of weeks after our episode on dread. We have recorded it very recently after recording the episode on dread, the movie about, I keep wanting to say judge dread about the stolen version, this is the urban version. But the movie deals with a lot of the same issues that does and it's it's questions that are very central to what I love about Batman in general, which is all these questions around like, okay, when you've got a broken justice system and it's almost impossible to fight the criminal elements because of that broken justice system and that gets an all sorts of sociological analysis to be sure. But like, what do you do? And I remember I said at one point as I was watching the movie, oh, this is going to be the dark night because it is set at the beginning while Harvey Dent is still Harvey Dent before anything has happened to him and it's Harvey and Gordon fighting with each other about how to best take down these mobsters at a time when neither one of the two of them trusts each other and Batman trying to get in the middle and them having these interesting conversations about how do we deal with like, to what extent can we break the law or can we cross lines in order to take down these people for whom there are no lines and there are no laws. And that part of it's very much the dark night story. And then as it continues, you see that it's kind of the dark night story and the Batman Robert Pattinson story all kind of mixed up together like at least both of those are drawn from this. Right. Exactly. So it feels that way when you watch this after seeing those, but it's like, oh, those just actually extracted these particular things from this story. And so I want to start there with what was your take on because certainly I think for one thing, you know, it shows the slow, slow descent of Harvey Dent, like, I love the dark night. Don't get me wrong. I thought the actor who played him was fantastic. Aaron Eckstein. I think it is. Eckhart. But it shows in a much slower way and a much more protracted, like you said, over the course of a year. What did you think of Dent and his kind of evolution of a story in this, in this movie? I feel like this dent has a little bit more room to develop. It's interesting because in terms of run time, this is actually longer than the dark night, right? Which feels like a pretty long movie. I think the dark night is like two and a half hours, give or take, right? And this is three hours, you know, but it's two one and a half hour animated films or like one 25, you know, a minute 25, a minute 27 or an hour 25, sorry. So it feels like there's more room for some of those things to breathe here. Also, you know, the dark night, like, I mean, I think Aaron Eckhart did a great performance of Harvey Dent and then Too Faced. Eckhart, that's right. Thank you. Yeah. But I mean, Heath Ledger was just sucking up all the oxygen in the movie, you know, like I'm not saying the Joker wasn't greatness, but the Joker doesn't dominate the story. You know, as we've discussed, and there are a lot of characters here and so I'm not even sure Dent gets more screen time. But the fact that this is spread out over a year, it just, you know, so you get to kind of see these snapshots of where Dent is at these different points in time, right? Right. It kind of, I'm not going to go there. I was going to say something about the last Jedi, not the last, Jesus, what am I talking about? I was going to say something about Tales of the Jedi and how it developed a particular character over several instances. But if you had like 12 instances there, maybe it would have felt different, right? And so, right here, it's like you get these little snapshots of where Harvey is at different points in time. And for me, that really sells it because it's, it lets there be this, this transformation that isn't just, oh, you know, this one event happened and now all of a sudden he's Too Face, right? Even though that was kind of in there, that was his nickname, whatever. But like that one kind of goes from like white knight straight to like Too Face. And this feels like there's always this conflict in there, there's, there's always some complexity to the character. We don't see all of it, right? It's not the Harvey Dent story, but, but that is a huge part of the story. And they, they get to kind of have a little bit more of a slow burn with it, both because of runtime and because of the fact that it's like the, basically these like, you know, this dozen snapshots throughout time. Right. And I think one reason why it really works is that, as you said, it's not just the one moment. It does, there's a lot having to do with his family, but more than anything, instead of being about him losing someone, it's about, it's really about cynicism and pragmatism. And him starting out is this part, because one of the first kind of major conflicts is they come a bunch. They come across a whole pile of, you know, Falcone's money and like literally just like stacks of cash and they're trying to decide like what to do with it. And one of the things they realize is if they go by the books, if they follow the law and what they're supposed to do of like turning it in, there's a very good chance that Falcone is going to intercept that at some point and get it back because the whole system is so corrupt. Right. And Catwoman is kind of there and winds up suggesting what they wind up doing, which is burning it, which is very illegal. And you can tell that like, dent is the one who winds up coming around to that position, but you can see that he's wrestling with it. And that from that, and then as you said, it's almost a year later that he gets, you know, attacked and has his face burned away. He's talking with acid that wants it becoming to face. You just get to see his sort of gradual, to me, it's such a fundamental question that hits for all of us because it's about lack of faith in a system. You know, he starts out as the character who most thinks no matter how much corruption there is, no matter how much goodness there, no matter how much badness there is, the law and the system of justice and the system of laws will, will work if we stick to it. And really the story is about his just losing all faith in that. Yeah. And, you know, at the beginning, Gordon's like, bend the rules, don't break them. But, you know, and then they just, they just break them right away. But, but there's this, this wrestling with that, right? And this like, you know, I mean, he's a DA, like his, right, whole career is I am going to use the law to, you know, try and mostly it's specifically this, this one guy he seems to like really want to go hard against. But I think overall he's, you know, a true believer that that is the way or at least a way, if not the way of trying to change things, right? And, you know, we're led to believe things have been quite bad and that there's, you know, that this cynicism is shared, you know, by most of the population. And I think really, you know, it ends up kind of coming through that like, yeah, that maybe that's just not going to work. Yeah. And, you know, by the end of it, there's a question like, is, I mean, is, is any of it going to work, you know, is doing things not according to the system? Does that work? Like, you know, I mean, in that regard, it's almost a much less hopeful story than the dark night is at least, and here we're talking in terms of how the dark night is about like the fall of Harvey Dent, because by the end of the dark night, you certainly get the perspective that there's this idea that like a white night, the white night didn't work, but that actually what Batman does does work and will help and will turn around the city, even if it has to be done in a way where no one understands what Batman's actually doing or that kind of thing. And then it gets really messy with a third movie. But there is, I think, to me, the end of the dark night movie is much more hopeful, whereas this one is like, okay, well, like Batman, like Harvey Dent has been caught. It's been figured out who holiday is and that has its own ending. But I don't have any sense that like Batman has turned things around in the city in any way. Yeah, definitely not. Right at the end, Batman is there on the rooftop, you know, where the bat signal is with Gordon and two-face now, and he says something like, was it worth it? And two-face says he wants to know whether the good guys won, Jim, and Gordon's like, yes, the good guys won, but we won't know for a very long time if it was worth it, which to me is like saying, yes, we won this battle in terms of we achieved the goal of taking down carbine falcony, right? But we won't know for a long time whether or not that's going to make a positive difference for the city. Right. Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it. That was the exact language that was occurring to me of the battle versus the war, and it's part of a trend that I think I'm really appreciating because, you know, we had like decades and decades of like, Batman is good, Batman is helping Gotham, and then you always had one who like, so why has Gotham so bad after so many decades of Batman doing this? But that's the timeline of comics, but then I think you started to get a lot of criticism of Batman starting about like 10 years ago or so. That was like, well, but Batman's not actually helping. All Batman is doing is punching poor people, which I think there's some legitimacy to those complaints. Like, why isn't Batman spent his money to make the city better? I think he actually does in a lot of ways, and a lot of those stories don't, it's easy to sort of make that critique without realizing that that's not quite accurate, but that's a whole other story. But I appreciate that I think with some of the newer stories, and I think Pattinson's Batman definitely does this, and this Batman does it as well, instead of it being attacking him himself, it's much more of a like, yeah, Batman is winning these individual battles and he's saving people's lives by doing so, and he is stopping bad people by doing so. What is he winning the war? And I really appreciate that level, and I think in part, that's part of the self-reflection that Pattinson is going through in the movie, and that by the end of that movie, he kind of is like, well, maybe by getting hope instead of by getting fear, I can win the war in a different way. And this movie doesn't get to that place of hope by the end, but I guess it sort of does with the trick or treaters. But I think I really like that about this movie is that it's giving a chance for him to win the battle, but for him himself to say, like, I don't know if this is winning the war. Yeah, and I think I have a lot to say about those particular criticisms, and I won't get too deep into it, but basically just, I think it's always been, or for a long time, I think it's been more complicated than that. But I do think like, there's a thing in the, like the very first scene is Falcone trying to get Bruce Wayne to sign on to doing something with him. Some business thing because Falcone and Thomas and Martha Wayne had like done some things, like building some hospitals together or whatever that somehow, you know, maybe lent some legitimacy to like the Falcone name, right? But also like, you know, built hospitals, right, like, and, and Bruce just responds, you know, I believe in Gotham City. And at the end, Falcone asked the same thing. He's like, do you still believe? And, and Batman's like, I do, you know, and I guess somehow he knows that's him. Um, oh, because yeah, he basically tells him it's him because of the thing about the coin or whatever. There's, there's like a line of dialogue that's shared, um, where he basically tells a dying Falcone that, you know, he's Bruce Wayne, I think. And it, I think there's this idea that like, like Batman does believe in, in Gotham and like once Gotham to, to be better, but that it's like, that it's complicated. And that I think there is some logic to the idea or some truth to the idea that like you, you can't just ignore like violent crime, right? Like you can't just have people going around murdering people and then not do anything to try and, um, make that happen less basically, right? But that also one of the main reasons that there is as much violent crime as there is or violence, I'm not even going to say crime, right? The reason there is as much violence as there is is partially because of resources and a lack of resources and the desperation that comes from having a lack of resources. And so, you know, I, I think sometimes you, you get people saying, oh, we should only address this situation like in terms of like social programs. And then sometimes you get people saying, oh, we should only address this situation in terms of like, you know, really, um, harsh policing. And I'm not arguing for the government doing both of those like exactly, right? But what I'm saying is overall like, I think you have to find ways to address both the, the urgent, immediate right now, you know, somebody is, is suffering from violence and the, um, ever present, um, pressing issue of there are resources are not being distributed adequately to everyone basically. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think the way I've been kind of seeing it more and more, and I think you helped me understand that the Batman, the Pattinson movie kind of actually has some of this in it that I think if, if the view is we have this broken system and as part of this broken system, people are getting hurt, people are getting killed and bad people are doing bad things and getting away with them, and the phrase bad people there is very subjective, obviously. But that one thing that can be helpful is to have a person who is sometimes using violence as a way to protect people and to stop people from doing bad things. Maybe we should get rid of the whole idea of bad people in general, but just like stopping people from doing bad things and protecting people from bad things happening to them. And I think for too long, the thought was if you do that enough and if you punch the people who are doing the bad things hard enough, they'll stop doing the bad things and everything will be better. And then the other side of the argument is bad, well, but no, you're actually making things worse by punching the bad people and trying to save people. And I think the first point is clearly wrong. The second point I think there's some truth to, but I think goes way too far and at least what I'm coming down to it, I think you're coming to a similar place is like, what Batman is doing is one necessary part of the equation. There also needs to be, like what Batman is doing is saying we've got a bad system and people are being hurt and people are getting away with it. And I'm going to try in within that system, try and make those two things change. And I'm reflecting the fact that those things in the system are a big part, excuse me, that those things in the system are a big part of what it makes it hard to change the system. So that I'm hoping that my like protecting more people and stopping more people from moving bad things and maybe giving some people some hope will create room for other people. And maybe I'll help or maybe I'll not, maybe it's Bruce Wayne who do this to actually make the change happen. And it's kind of a v for vendetta thing of like V can do all the violence to stop things, but it's the people who then have to like actually make the change and do the do the positive thing. And I think what I'm coming down to is that kind of a place of like, I think Batman can't punch the system until it is better, but Batman can figure things out, do the detective work, do the fighting work, protect people, stop bad things from happening. And so doing, making it possible for maybe him or maybe others to actually make the change, but that those have to be two kind of different things. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes a ton of sense, you know, and especially, you know, I mean, if Batman can stop the, you know, stop people from causing harm to others without causing irrevocable harm to those people, right, that are attempting to inflict the harm, like, you know, that's sort of the, you know, the difference between like lethal and non-lethal in comic books, you have non-lethal in our world, you have less lethal, right, less likely to be lethal. But like in terms of using that sort of violence, as opposed to just killing everybody, like the punisher would, right. And I think, you know, V for vendetta is a great example because like V's not going to just take the mask off and then be someone who's like, you know, trying to help solve the other side of the equation, right. Whereas Batman can take the mask off and pretend he's just Bruce Wayne. And then probably do a lot of good in theory, you know, and I mean, of course, it's not like you can necessarily just use a bunch of money to change everything, but, you know, money does help and I think influence helps more and, you know, I don't think this is a perfect example and certainly it gets watered down over the many seasons in different directions it goes. But I think Oliver Queen is a good example of how that can work where, at least in the CW show, I think in some of the other versions as well, you know, the arrow or the green arrow is doing that kind of Batman work, but then his other persona, Oliver Queen, is using his money and using his political influence to try and change the system and make the systemic changes so that it's not all the bad things that are happening. And like, I think in the Pattinson movie, I think we're starting to get there, especially in the way that movie ends. And so yeah, I would love to see more of that kind of thing. And which is again, let me actually back up here a second, because my point is I'm not saying that those are therefore better than this. I'm saying what I like about this is I feel like it's much more honest about saying this is what Batman can do and there's a whole lot he can't do. And that the reason why the ending of it is so beautiful is that it's Alfred who's kind of saying like, no, but there is hope, Bruce, that what you're doing can create space for other people to do that. And the fact that the kids are going back trick or treating again is the proof of that in a really great way. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And there is a thing about, I think Batman saying like, I think Batman can make a difference or something like that or still says something. And then Alfred's like, I think the same is true of Bruce Wayne, right? Yeah. And yeah, you're right with the trick or treaters at the end, it does have that feel of like, oh, maybe there is some hope for the city, basically. Yeah. I also, I think you talked about this at the very beginning in terms of what you liked about it. I think as part of that, it is so important that this is primarily not like the biggest thing Batman does is being a detective. I don't think we ever see the Batmobile or like any kind of super, we don't see much like super gadgets or like Batman doing all like the great toys as Jack and Lex and Joker calls it. Like mostly what we see Batman do is, is figuring out mysteries and occasionally winning fights when he gets to win fights. And I really liked that because I think it also kind of highlights that like in many ways, the biggest thing that Batman can do is not just win fights with violence and cool toys and show off, but is can dig into the things no one else wants to dig into and figure things out. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's interesting because most of the story is about mobsters of one type or another or various criminals, right? Getting killed. Or and cops and DAs, yeah. And cops and DAs, no, are our DAs killed in this? I mean, oh, but I just mean that it's about dent in his family as much as it is, no, no, no, no, no, no. The two families, the, the, the, the dance and the Falcons, yeah, but I was, I was making a very specific point, which is the violence done is basically violence largely against it is like very specific targeted violence against the Falcone family and associates, right? It's not about these big plots to destroy all of Gotham. The Joker tries to, you know, murder half of the people theoretically and Batman stops them. But that's like a side note. That's usually act three. Yeah, you're right. Right. There is no big plot to stop. Right. The big plot to stop is usually the main act like in the Batman, there's a big plot to stop at the end because that's how you structure blockbusters. And I feel like there's value in that act. I don't feel like it ruins the movie or anything. And I don't think it's a third act. It's like a seven fact or whatever. I haven't really thought a ton about the exact structure of the whole movie, but I do know that's a thing that a lot of people felt like, eh, like, do, do we need to do this? And I do actually cosign the view like, no, I don't think you needed to do that exactly that way, right? I do think it's interesting that here, you know, the most public thing Batman does is save all those people from the Joker, right? But that's a side note in this story, which I actually find a lot more elegant and interesting where it's like Batman's trying to solve this mystery of a bunch of, you know, criminals mostly getting killed and, you know, spoilers, eventually maybe he does. And but he saves like these tons of people from Joker talks in and like that's a side note, right? Oh, yeah. This happened. And I think that's kind of cool to frame the story that way. The big bad plan is to eventually kill the last of the mobsters and it works like the big bad does the thing the big bad wants to do. Do you want to actually get to the spoiler section now? Yeah, I was thinking, let's do that. So let's just take a quick break and then we're going to talk about the who holiday is and some other spoiler stuff and then wrap up right back, all right, so we're back. So yeah, let's start talking about the big bad holiday and and who it gets revealed to be because we're now in a spoiler section going into spoilers in three, two, one holiday is Gilda Dent, Harvey's wife, which I definitely did not see coming. What did you think of the kind of the way that story went up playing out? I thought it was, I liked it a lot. I think early on, you were briefly supposed to entertain the notion that maybe it was like the joke or something because he just escaped at a certain time, but they're supposed to, oh, it's not him. And at the end of the first one, you were supposed to think it was Alfonso Falcone, Carmine Son, right? Who actually was Gilda's first husband and they had met at Oxford and and she was pregnant and then they got married and then Carmine found out and had it annulled and forcibly aborted the, you know, the fetus or whatever it was at that stage, which, you know, that's not pro-choice, right? Like non-consensual abortions are bad. And she uses the words ripped from my womb. And while the word infertility is never stated, yeah, there's a running plot line with Harvey and her that she can't have children and so they think the idea is that they did it in a way that want to basically like she's unable to get pregnant again or unable to carry a child. Right. Exactly. Sort of, you know, hysterectomized or whatever, is that a word? Yeah. Like, so, you know, this is violence done to her. This isn't, you know, a choice of hers. Anyway. And for those, by the way, who decided not, you don't want to go watch the movie, which is totally fine. I think it is very good. But for those who are fine being spoiled but are still listening along, we only learn all this at the very end. Right. Yes. I will say, I definitely knew it was hard. I watch a lot of mysteries and, you know, I, there are things, I won't talk about like how the mystery was kind of presented. But I do think they did a lot of things that are an effective way of throwing people off the trail. Right. Which when you watch a ton of mysteries, then often kind of become like meta clues, you know, where like, I will also say I watched it while very high on some anti-migrant medicine and was having trouble following some parts of the plot. So it's entirely possible. There's a lot more obvious than I thought. Fair. Fair. I wouldn't say that I thought it was obvious. I would say that they did some things that I, that I found to be very clear, misdirects. Like, they kept talking about holiday, oh, him, him, this guy, this guy. And I'm like, they keep saying him like it can't possibly be a woman. And that's exactly the sort of thing you want to do if the killer is actually a woman, right? And, and then, you know, there's some other things throughout. But yeah, I thought it was a good mystery. I didn't think from like, you know, the, the first scene that it was her, you know, it, it took a while. I think I solved it before Batman did, but I liked that throughout Batman is like, you know, I didn't know the Batman would have to be a detective to do this, basically, right? And then by the end, he becomes a good enough detective to solve it, right? And no one else does, except, oh, well, Harvey actually solves it, right? And, and Harvey actually kills Carmine, right? It's not right. It's not her who does it. And then when he gets caught, he takes credit for all of everything that happened kind of covering for her. Exactly. And we don't even know whether Batman tells anyone else at the end because he's basically, he's like, I need to know that holiday is done. And she's like, not done, finished. Like, that was it, you know, she's, she's not like a serial killer who wants to kill a lot of people, she's a person with a vendetta that has been completed, you know. Right. And so I think at the end of it, Batman's like, yeah, okay, like, you, and I think he sees like, like his parents were also killed by Falcone, right? Or by their association with him, maybe by Moroni, I'm not sure. And I think it's stated that like, nobody knows, right? It's not clear. It's not clear that that was the reason they got killed, but it's not clear exactly who did it. Which I have to make a quick interruption. We do see a flashback to his parents' death. And we saw a hand reach for the pearls and I audibly groaned. But then they just rip away and that's all we see of the pearls and I was like, okay, that's fine. There was no slow motion of pearls. I can deal with that. Yeah. And we don't even really see them get shot in like full frame, you know, the way it's shot is it, I think it shows their faces and then it shows like Bruce's face and then it cuts back to Batman in crime alley, which they don't name. And some other family who's like, oh, get away from him. And right. And it's happening while he's on a hallucinogenic drug. So it's much like, I don't want to keep seeing that scene, but I feel like if you're gonna show me that scene, they both earned it in the plot and then also like didn't do it as bad as it normally is. And that was my aside. We can go back to the van. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. 100%. And, you know, I was happy in the Batman where they didn't have that scene, right? Here I felt like, okay, if you're going to do it, that's the way to do it. Cool. Moving on. Great. And, you know, and because this is an earlier Batman, this is like year two Batman, right? There's a, there's a comic Batman year one and this is like year two, basically. And yeah, so I think, I think Batman like understands like Bruce understands where Gilda is coming from, you know, in terms of this like wanting vengeance and he's chosen a different path. But, you know, she's essentially gotten vengeance on all the people that he might have wanted vengeance on. Right. So it's, so you could say he's got like a little bit of a conflict of interest really in terms of like letting her walk or maybe letting her walk. We don't even know. But it does seem like he's just like, okay, well, you did all these, you know, you caused all this harm to all these people. But if you're done now, okay, you know, what am I going to do? What's the point in bringing you in and, you know, and like he just stands there while she's destroying the evidence. Yeah. It reminds me a lot of, you're probably going to know much more about this than I do and we don't need to go to into the details. But Dexter is another favorite TV show of both of ours, I think, the ending notwithstanding, but where one of the points is like he is someone who, on the one hand, like he wants to kill in order to like, you know, have vendettas and to take out bad people. But for him and also is a compalt for him, it is a compulsion. He couldn't just stop. And he comes across as someone who he thinks might be kind of like a partner, both romantically, but also in the same way. But what is revealed eventually is that she had a similar thing. She had a vendetta against a specific group. And once she's finished with that, she no longer needs to kill the way he does. And in some ways, I think that that's kind of the question that Batman is trying to get at in that final scene with Gilda of like, are you going to do this again? And you're right. We don't know exactly what happened. We don't know if he turns it in, but I think he doesn't because he, I think what's pretty clear is that he is satisfied that she believed she's not going to do this again. And then he just, he doesn't really say anything. He just walks away. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that to me matches kind of what sort of the lack of the idea of justice being the most important thing, right? The idea being like, the most important thing is what's going to happen next. You know, okay, we know that you did these things, right? We know that you murdered these people. Are you, you know, a murderer in terms of your actions? Well, sure. Yeah. But are you a murderer in terms of your, like what you want to do with your life, you know, like, like Dexter is, is compulsively wants to kill, like it's just a thing, right? And, and so, you know, his, his dad from Jericho wants to like find a way for him to channel that in a constructive way that also won't get him in as much trouble, right? And here that's not like who this gilda is as far as we can tell. I mean, sure, I would think like if someone deeply wrongs her in the future, she's more likely than a random person to then go through some sort of violent vendetta. But all the people that she really had on her list are dead. She crossed off everyone on her list and it's like, you know, okay, well, it doesn't seem like you're going to be causing a lot of harm going forward. So, you know, go live the rest of your life. And I mean, I'm so torn on that because you're right. I think, and this is kind of what we talked about with, with dread not long ago, criminal justice can have a number of different approaches and one approach can be you did a bad thing. And so therefore you should be punished, which I think both you and I are like pretty strongly rejecting it because it's just proven it doesn't work and it feeds into the worst impulses. Another is we want to prevent you from doing future harm. And so therefore we're going to put a place where you're incapable of doing future harm, which I think, you know, I think can be very helpful. But also there's like a difference between helping to get someone to a point where they're not going to do harm versus just locking them away in a cage somewhere. But I think a third thing is that preventing people in society from doing harm in general does involve letting them know that if they do harm and get caught, then something bad might happen to them. And like to me here kind of goes to the thing you were saying before about how like I fully want to reform the justice system. But I also don't want to say because right now we have a broken police system, we should do nothing about people who do violence to each other until we have a good system to treat them with, you know, like we got to do something about it still today and now. So I think that's the one part where I stumble a bit, though I do think that they resolve it well because I do think that like, you know, I think a world in which we say if you do a bad, if you kill someone, but then by the time you get caught, you can prove you're never going to do it again, you always get to walk free, like that's not a good situation. But the problem being that if people think like, oh, someone else killed and got away with it, the fact that Harvey Dunte takes responsibility for all those crimes, I think is the one other factor that I think helps Batman be okay with it. Because I do think at least that Batman on some levels, like he said, he's not just going to say, okay, you're never going to kill again, I'm going to let all of you walk free. But the fact that he both understands where she's coming from, where she's coming from so much, he sympathizes with that. But also I think that someone else has taken credit. So at least in the public's mind, this crime has been dealt with is a part of what allows him to walk back up those stairs. Yeah, I agree with that last part for sure. I think in terms of punishment as a means of dissuading people from doing things, I think that's a whole conversation. But I do think here it is definitely true that he is given that opportunity to not have someone visibly walking free, to have the case be closed as Too Faced and Harvey took credit. And it's like, okay, well, what's the value, he's going to be an Arkham as long as Arkham can hold them, which as we all know is probably not very long. But it doesn't really matter whether he, I mean, because he definitely killed Carmine. So like, you know, he'll be in there for a while no matter what. And then, and he also, I guess he orchestrated the Arkham prison break as well himself. So even more evidence that it probably won't hold him that long. Yeah. And to be clear, I'm not saying that like retributive justice helps with prevention, like that's been proven to be very clear. I'm just saying that also like a system of no consequences whatsoever doesn't seem great either. Yeah. Yeah, I get you. I get you. Yeah. And yeah, so, so I feel like, you know, it, it, Batman kind of gets to have it both ways here, right? Where he, he gets to let this person who has been greatly harmed and then done a large amount of harm as well in, in vengeance for that, he, he lets to let her walk and then, you know, maybe have her second life or third life as this, it seems like this, this middle one's kind of been like a, a purgatory of sorts for her. And like, who knows what she'll do after that, right? And there is this theme of like a second life, obviously Batman, you know, from Bruce Wayne, but there's this, this great scene between Harvey Dent just before he becomes two face and Solomon Grundy, who just keeps saying born on a Monday and, and like, but then Harvey goes through the whole cycle of like on Tuesday, something else happened and Wednesday and then, you know, he died on Sunday and then Grundy's like, born on a Monday. And he's like, I reborn and then, then, you know, Dent takes off the bandages and now he's two face. And, you know, this is very clearly kind of his, his second life. And so, you know, maybe Gilda can have a second life as whatever else, you know, I, I did quite like the character of Luca Grundy. I mean, sorry, Solomon Brazzi, I mean, sorry, Solomon Grundy as the Luca Brazzi stand in for this. And yeah, I thought that was really the use of that poem was really well done. Yeah. I don't know. You had mentioned that. I mean, I think there's definitely some like nods to the Godfather as in not to mention like specifically calling Carmine, you know, the Godfather. But I didn't totally get the the Luca Brazzi, you know, connection. I mean, he didn't sleep with any fishes. I guess he actually does. He lives in the sewer. So I don't know. Yeah. I think just in like they put him in a suit and they had him as the kind of like almost non-verbal, but big, effective killer type. Yeah. Okay. Fair. That's a vibe rather than kind of plot positioning. I got you. I feel that. Yeah. So there's one thing I want to say about the guild thing and then we can do some kind of last last things to wrap up, which is that I think part of why I didn't see it is like it works very well for the story. And I think if I hadn't gotten really invested in the other version of what we were seeing of her, I would have liked a lot more. But one of the things that is done is that, and I think probably some of this is very real, but some of this is to sell her story throughout the story until then, Gilda is very much kind of a shut in. And like she's constantly, like she's had, has obviously like a lot of very down moods and she doesn't want to go out as much as Harvey does and like be seen in public as much as Harvey does. And I thought it was one of the most beautiful explorations I had seen of a character going through long-term depression and reproductive loss of some kind and the way they showed Harvey, not like hitting her, not like being terrible to her, but still reacting in the way that I think is very common, but is actually quite harmful for a person who doesn't quite understand the mental issues that someone else is going through to respond to with them. You know, and he kind of gaslights her at times. He's kind of like trying to get her to minimize things and it wasn't, again, it wasn't shown to be like, look how evil Harvey is to her so he belongs to everything that's happening to him. But I think it was a way of showing that Harvey is getting so wrapped up in everything else that's going on to him that part of his fall is that he's really neglecting the emotional needs of his wife and of that part of his life. And I still think a lot of that is true and a lot of that still works, but knowing that some of that at least wasn't asked because like, you know, she would say like Harvey, they need to leave and then a little while later, the holiday would kill someone. It was like, sort of like, okay, you gave me one character and it showed me that that character was kind of a shadow for the real character. And that's cool, but I really love that first character you gave us and it's a little sad that that it wasn't taken away, but it definitely was like going back and watching it now. I think I'm going to have a lot less sincerity of what Gilda is putting out, you know, and I'm a little bummed about that, even though it still makes her a great twist. I hear you. I did just watch it for the second time and I'll say I don't feel like she was putting on an act, you know, like, I do think, you know, when she was at one point, she's like under police protection or whatever and she's like, you know, I think she's like, oh, I have to go do this. I have to go do this. And they're like, no, no, no, but you know, we can't leave you alone or whatever. And I think like, I feel like she's both of those people though, you know, like, I think as holiday, she's not like, there's no personality there, right? She's she's just going and doing a thing. And I I get you that it feels like, you know, you've taken this very specific character and then added this other thing that feels sort of, I mean, it definitely doesn't let the first character just be just that, right? Right. And so I feel you there. But I think it's also just the normal representation stuff we talk about of if there hadn't been so few of that first character, I probably wouldn't mind you name it here as much. Right. It's like, oh, we finally get, you know, a representation of this who is also a serial killer on holiday. It's okay. Okay. You know? But it still was a great twist. And I think that's part of why also I didn't see it coming is because yeah, the scene where she's with those cops and wants to get off by herself, I think it's probably a lot more suspicious than I gave it credit for. Yeah. Yeah. And then also it's just like from a storytelling perspective, it's like, why is this story giving her so much room, you know? I think it's great that it does. And I think it would be great if a story where she wasn't the killer did that. But typically, you know, a comic book story isn't going to focus on, you know, the depressed wife of the like third protagonist, you know, like that's, that's a, that's an onion. It's an unusual choice. And so to me, that probably popped out as well as like an instant like, well, who's she? Like, you know, like what is, what is she, why is she in this story so much? Which isn't, I don't mean like it would be a bad choice. Otherwise, I think it would be a great choice. Otherwise, it would be very interesting, but, but it's just would be an unusual one. It's, it's, I wouldn't expect storytellers to, to go to the, that those lengths. And I think in some ways you actually made my point even better than I was making it and also helped me understand how we see the movie a little differently. Because to me, Harvey Dent is 100% the main character of this. Like, I see it primarily about, and part of that's because I've always been so fascinated with his story. So maybe that's what I glom onto most. But you're right. I thought it was so interesting and so different that they were giving us her story. Yeah. And I want this. I wish we saw more of that. Absolutely. And so that was part of also, I think the like, oh, that's why you gave us her story. Not just because you think it's interesting. Okay. That's fine. Yeah. I thought it was interesting enough to be actually the, I mean, in another way, she's the main character. Right? Yeah. It's like, sure, it's called Batman the Long Halloween. And a lot of it focuses on, you know, Harvey Dent and him becoming Too Faced. But like, it's a story about the serial killer, right? And she's like, in some way the villain is always the star, right? And I wouldn't, I wouldn't even call her a villain, you know, but she's, she's definitely the serial killer. You know, she's the one, you know, who done it. And, and so yeah, I think, you know, I would, I would love to see something similar. That's a mystery that also has characters who you wouldn't expect to be as well fleshed out, as well fleshed out as she is, who are actually then red herrings, you know? And it's like, that's all the, when you do a mystery, you can take any character and make them a big deal either because they are with a number of members of Falcone's family. Right. Exactly. You know, and they, none of them I felt got quite as much, but a lot of them got way more than they would in a story that was just, you know, an action story. This wasn't an action story. It was, it was a mystery that had action in it. Right. I think you're right. All right. Well, just a couple of last things I wanted to touch on and hear from you as well before you wrap up. I was really impressed with the, with the, with the voice casting, Jensen Echols, who is most known for supernatural and now for the boys, he's the voice of Batman and I thought he was very good. And it's also interesting because like, when we people talk about who are the Batman, you know, who are the people who played Batman, actually never heard his main name mentioned in the, in the conversation, I think, because this is much smaller. Mm hmm. The only little, I love having Katie Sackhoff, who people know from Battle Circle Actagon, some other things as Poison Ivy and some other great people. And as, as Boca Tan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. The only thing that like, I thought it was good voice acting, but it just kind of like rubbed me a little bit the wrong way. But again, I, I, I focus on these things a lot. Naya Rivera, who a lot of people know from Glee, where she already got her start. Yeah. Fortunately, has passed away. She was the voice of Selena Kyle of Catwoman, which I thought was great. Um, Naya is Latina or Naya, what if someone's dead, do you say was or is? I say was and yeah, you know, I say died violently and by drowning, not passed away. But, you know, that's me. Yeah. Um, Naya was Latina and, and quite dark skinned and sort of have her voice acting a much lighter skin, Selena Kyle, I didn't love, but I also know that like, we're still going very slowly and that kind of thing, so fair enough. Um, but yeah, other than that, I really love the voice acting. I, and I, I thought you were right, the animation was just absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. Um, I mean, the first one, at least the first one was dedicated to her as she died sometime between, uh, recording the, the voice and, um, doing the, uh, what's it called? Uh, oh, and the, and the release of the movie. It's like, yeah, quite tragically too. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, in terms of, I don't know, it's, it's interesting because it's like, that's also kind of the, um, the opposite of like, if you have, you know, a, a white actor playing a, a character with, with darker skin, like that also is going to be, um, I don't know. I, I guess what, what I'm trying to say is I think that this is probably less problematic than that. And, um, it's possible that they basically had the animation and then they cast her, you know, right. Yeah. That would, that would make some sense. But, um, yeah, um, I, I thought she was a very good cat woman, regardless. Um, and I, I did feel that, um, who was it? I felt like Jensen Ackles was kind of trying to do a Kevin Conroy without like, trying to do a Kevin Conroy impersonation. I wondered if first of all was Conroy because it sounded kind of, it definitely sounded like that strong, gruff, giving very little emotion, but not quite there. Yeah. And I would say, um, you know, I don't want someone to do an impersonation, but to me, this kind of hit the, the sweet spot of like feeling like it was in the spirit of the Kevin Conroy Batman without being like, I'm going to try and impersonate Kevin Conroy. Um. Yeah. Yeah. Overall, I, I did think the voice acting was excellent and the, um, yeah, but, but the, the animation was just, uh, on, I feel like it's on another level from a lot of the other animation, um, that we see from, you know, um, the, especially Disney, I guess, particularly in terms of like Star Wars, you know, I mean, there's things in the Star Wars animation that I think are great, like it's the settings and stuff, uh, but in terms of the characters themselves, like this, it feels more to me like a comic book, um, that moves, you know? Yeah. I think it's very good. Yeah. Yeah. It really made me that way of us into Spider verse. Yeah. You have a very different styles. Any other last things you wanted to bring up? Can we wrap up? Uh, yeah, there's, there's one, uh, more line from Gilda at the end where, uh, she says, um, in the end, I loved him talking about Harvey, but not all of him. And I feel like that kind of parallels some of the, um, Bruce and Selena relationship where, cause they're like actually together, they're a couple and Catwoman knows who that man is, but then they're not a couple and it's like, they clearly can't really make it work, but they kind of try and then it doesn't work. And then it does. And, you know, um, there are two more stories that follow this in the same comics continuity. Um, one is called Catwoman, When in Rome and the other one's Batman dark victory. And, uh, the latter, I think is, is like a Dick Grayson Robin, uh, origin, which I think would be really interesting to see, like handled in the same kind of on the same level as this. And I would really like to see the Catwoman when in Rome, which is, uh, she like takes a trip to Rome to try and find out what's up with, you know, her, I guess mostly her mom because, um, Falcone is, is dead now here. Um, and yeah, and it looks like it's like a, a week and, you know, whatever. But, um, unfortunately you'd have to get a different, uh, voice actress, mostly unfortunately because, you know, someone died and that sucks. Right. Um, but it would be nice to see like a catwoman story that's like, this is a catwoman story, you know, that's not the Halle Berry movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it is that same story from the Batman of Falcone was her father. Right. Exactly. And she, she says a name at the very end, which I think is, is supposed to be the point that that's clean a cow's mother's name. Yeah. She doesn't even know her mother's name. Yeah. I think he says Louisa. And when she's at the very end, she's trying to save, uh, Sophia, which is, I guess her sit half sister, um, or sister. And she's like Sophia. And then Sophia, like let's go and false to her death. Um, but it feels almost like they know each other, you know, like she knows her. Um, yeah, which was just an interesting, like, just little thing. Mm hmm. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Other couple of little things I loved. Um, the joke at one point makes a comment that why he has to like, why he's so invested in the holiday story is that he like Batman loves a good puzzle, right? Which is, I've never really heard it expressed quite that way, but I really liked that, is that something that binds it to them together. Um, early on, we talked about how kind of like, this is about Batman kind of learning how to do the stuff he does, especially detective work. There's a scene where it's pretty clean and Gordon actually says this, like he hasn't used the words good cop, bad cop, but he basically was like, I thought we had a thing where we were going to like, bluff the violence and then, and Gordon does the like, yeah, I hope you answer me. And also I can't deal with that man. Yeah. And then Batman is like, does the, no, no, dude, it was a bluff. It was a bluff. We can't do this. Like, I thought we were doing a bit here. Yeah. It was really good. And I also just like, I haven't actually seen this much since the original Godfather, and I think it's very much a reference. Actually, no, it's in good fellows where they're, no, forgive me. This is a bit that I haven't seen since good fellows and then good fellows did it in reference to the Godfather, but in both of them, there's a scene where the mobsters are like making a spaghetti sauce. That's really great. Oh, yeah. And so having Falcone make a reference to how like, you have to get the basil just when it's really fresh to like, make the good sauce. I was like, Oh, I love that. Thank you. Yeah. It just really made me want to eat some pasta with some like red peppers, like, and, you know, yeah, definitely we're going to do now as we're doing for most of the year is we're going to wrap up. We're going to give the outro and then there's going to be a bonus section where we talk a little bit more about the episode and other things we recommend, which if you're a Patreon, you get to find out about. And so Paul, before I go into all that for folks who are following you, what do you want them to know? I'm Zen Madman in all the places, Twitch, Twitter, YouTube, I've started coaching, writing, and creating again and details and all that are available on my website, ZenMadman.com. Like Matthew, I'm also launching a Patreon and support there will help me spend more my time making stuff for folks. So if you're heading over to support the ethical Panda, which you absolutely should do, feel free to stop by mine afterwards. That's awesome. I'm really good here. You're getting those things started. And as Paul said, you can find both of us now on Patreon. I'm the ethical Panda. Paul is Zen Madman and I know on Zen Madman, you get a lot of great stuff right here. If you do sign up to be a patron, pretty much any level, you'll get to have the bonus content that we're about to do. We've been having a lot of fun making those. So really hope you get to check those out. But for everyone who's going to be stopping here, as you know, the best way to find us on all the places is the ethical Panda. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, Twitter and TikTok are the main ones I've been focusing on lately, but we do have a Discord, we do have a Facebook page and depending on content and generation, I'd be happy to make more things there. So let us know what you think. This is not a movie a lot of people have seen, but if you have seen it, we'd love to hear it. If you haven't, what do you think about it? You know, wanting to watch it. What do you think about all the questions we raised about, you know, this new idea of who Too Faced could be or how, you know, Too Faced's origin story or holiday and who holiday could be and the mystery and what Batman decides to do at the end would love to hear your feedback and thoughts. The ethical Panda, Twitter, TikTok, Facebook, all those places and the best way to find all that is going to be in the show notes or if you go to our website, theethicalpanda.com. There you'll find all the content information, you'll find information about all the other podcasts we're doing, we've been doing episode by episode coverage of the Bad Batch. We have a great episode coming out on The Last of Us with Danielle, written in the Star Wars, who's a huge fan of that show and is going to have a, she's played through the whole video game. I have not, so we're going to have a great conversation about that. That'll be here on this podcast coming soon. All that's going to be up on the website. So thank you so much for listening. If you're a patron, then we will have more for you in just a second for everybody else. Have a great day. [MUSIC]
