(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to Disc Golf Daily. I'm joined by Mahmoud Barrani, the guy that produces the shows that we watched live on DGN every weekend, the Pro Tour is broadcasting. Mahmoud, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? - I'm doing great, Steve, or yeah, I'm doing great, Steve. Thanks for having me on. - I would love to know, what does it take for a DGN broadcast to happen? You've got two broadcasts. You've got the women in the morning, you've got the men in the afternoon, one to two hours between when the camera operators get to eat lunch. I have no idea what happens behind the scenes. And I'd like to know, like, we just had worlds. What did a day in the life of Mahmoud look like during worlds? - Sure, yeah, so our call time basically just means like when is everyone supposed to be on heads and so we can test everything. Our call time is usually two hours before the broadcast starts. So, for example, world's broadcast start was nine, so nine Eastern, so our call time was seven Eastern. That's actually pretty tight as far as TV goes, but we also have to do a men's show in the afternoon and we also are doing this for three or four or five days, whatever. So, I would say two hours is tight as far as TV goes, but we're pretty efficient at our checks at this point. So, at seven Eastern, six Central, in my case, in the case of our director Ian Longer, it's four o'clock for him 'cause he's out on the West Coast, so he's getting up really early. We're on heads and we are, we have a checklist, we go through all of our, make sure all the technology is working, make sure that our cameras, one of the big things, one of the very important things that we do is we check that all the camera audio is level across cameras. So, like, if we're on cameras one, two and three and we go to cameras four and five, it sounds the same, like it's not like, it doesn't get super loud when we go to cameras four and five. We check that on the live use, our transmitting and working. I go through with our graphics operator and our AD and we make sure that we have all the assets prepared and everything's ready to go. We check that our replay channels are working. That takes about an hour or so. And then we check that all our special activations for that week are prepped that we all know what we're doing. We'll rehearse certain things, like... - I wanna interrupt you, a special activation. What is a special activation? - So, for example, the nakwa, the powered by nakwa replay or the birdie zone is a great example. Well, that's something we'll react to. I wanna see it. I wanna know that it looks the way I'm expecting it to look. The first time we show it on the broadcast is never the first time we're seeing it. So, you know, in a lot of these we do week in, week out. So, you know, it doesn't take very long to check them, but it's still important that we do. We just check that all the buttons are working. And then the talent get on, the talent are, you know, the commentators, the talent get on an hour before. So now we have to reset, we basically do all the checks again when the talent are on, and we go through the run of the kind of the rundown and say, "Hey, off the top, you're gonna see Avelina Saladin arriving." And then we're gonna go to this highlight package of Avelina playing really well at New London. And we're gonna say, "Hey, she played really well at New London." But she's even, yeah, she played really well at New London. She's even better at Ivy Hill. So, does that mean that she has the advantage? And we'll have that discussion. And that kind of sets things up for the viewer so we can, when we get into the broadcast, it's not just like there's some contacts behind what they're watching. - So your first call starts at seven. - Yes. - Eastern. - Yeah, seven Eastern, yeah. - And four, obviously four Pacific, assuming time zones are still working. And Ian is on the West Coast. - Correct, yeah. - I'm assuming you're waking up between five and six. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. - So I get up usually, and I'm an early riser, so I get up around five-ish. I try to do something physical, whether it's like go for a run, go for a walk, just walk around, like just do anything to get fresh air in my system. Then I'll usually have like a decent-sized breakfast just to get my body woken up. And I don't drink coffee. So like that's kind of how I wake up. And then yeah, once you're going, it's so fast-paced that you're certainly awake in between the hours of nine and one, whatever the show happens, or the broadcast. So from nine to one, we're broadcasting. Now, as soon as the cameras are off, they're clear, and they go relaxed, they go get their lunches. As soon as we're clear, now our replay operator, Nick Markey, he's fantastic, he actually has to spend just so folks understand what's going on. Nick Markey sticks on probably another 10, 15 minutes to export what in like the broadcasting world would be called like our melt. That's basically just like the clean, by clean, I mean, no graphics, the clean versions of all the shots. So like for example, if Avelina, let's just use, I don't know, Avelina throws in on hole two, whatever. He'll export that clip, that shot from every camera that we got it from without graphics. So then if someone else wants to use that clip, it's as easy as us sharing it with someone. - Oh, very good. - Yeah, so Markey, probably in a given broadcast, will export somewhere between 50 and 70 highlights. That's everything from a big putt to, you know, a great drive. And you know, Markey's really excellent at doing that. It's a very hard thing to learn. Gary Obernberger, who is a reef operator before did a great job teaching Markey how to do that. Now Markey's in a position where he's expert level at it. You know, having a great melt is really important. - So, Mamu, you mentioned they're downloading these clips. So, and they're clean. So, you said so anybody else can use them. - Correct. - Is this, for example, if James Conrad throws in at pro worlds and I'm MVP and I say, hey, I would like to use that clip. Is MV your type of client there? - It is a perfect example. That's a perfect example. And that's exactly what we do. Like if Inova or anybody discraft wants to license those clips. - A lot of them are partners of the tour, right? So, like that's part of being a partner of the tours. You don't have to, we don't have to go through that. It's just like that's part of the deal is you get these clips, you get access to them. - So, if I'm a partner of the tour, let's pretend I'm a manufacturer. I become a partner of the tour. And then one of the things is at the end of each event, I get a package with it. - Well, you could, it depends. Like you get a certain amount of credits. Like this is where you have to talk to Sean Jack, who's our VP of partnerships. - Okay, okay. But you get a certain amount of credits where you can use them to, like especially if your player wins, right? That's something you want to celebrate as a manufacturer. So, yeah, that's, so that's huge for everybody. I mean, it's also good for us. 'Cause we then are my, you know, we have excellent production assistants, Connor and Blake. I can't pronounce Connor's last name, Connor Denau. I'm probably getting it wrong. I'm Blake Bridges. They do a fantastic job of then turning around those clips for the next day. So, for example, we didn't get to use it, but Luke Taylor during round four grew in twice. He threw it on hole 14. He had an incredible throw in and then a hole 15 had it even better throw in. So those two clips they put it into one clip that we could have used on Sunday, but we didn't end up doing it. 'Cause 14 was also where Nicholas had that roll away. So, it wouldn't have made sense to then play them. So like, a lot of this stuff is context sensitive, context sensitive. But yeah, so after the hour break, it's usually somewhere in between 45 minutes and an hour and a half. Sometimes there's no break. Sometimes it's two hours, you know. It just depends on the course. It depends on, you know, a lot of circumstances. Is there a backup? Is there a weather or whatever? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We get back in the chair. We try and get back in the chair 45 minutes before the boys show. And then we do the same song and dance. We go through all our checks. We show everything to the boys commentators, 'cause usually it switches out. And we prep for that show, then we do that show, which is usually from, let's say, three o'clock to seven o'clock Eastern. And then, thankfully, everybody else gets to sign off. I wouldn't want them to be on any longer. Marky, again, has another 10 to 15 minutes where he's exploring clips. And then that's where my job starts. Essentially, that's where I consider my job starting, is when everything is wrong. Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You said from nine to one, the show is live. And I introduced you as the producer. Correct. It feels like while the show's live, the producer would be doing something. Well, that's true. Yeah, during the show, you know, big, and I hate calling it a show. So during the broadcast, I have several roles, all of us wear several hats, right? It's a five person control room. I challenge anybody to go find a production like ours that has the same number of people. But anyway, I digress there. So, for example, Ian Longer, our director, is also our technical director. In a traditional show, there's a director, and then there's a separate person who's literally taking care of the technical elements of it, and the director's just directing. Now, in our show, today do both. Me, I'm the producer. The producer's focus is usually keeping everything, making it feel like a consistent narrative, making it feel like it, like whenever you feel like the broadcast, I'm sorry, go ahead, you're gonna ask. I was just gonna say, you're basically making sure we're telling one story and keeping the arc going. Yeah, kind of, and just being able to adapt with what's going on on the screen. So, for example, if someone birdies three holes in a row, we wanna let people know, hey, they just birdie three holes in a row, maybe here's a little highlight package, or here's their scorecard, just to draw attention to the fact that they birdie three in a row, maybe you weren't paying attention, or just trying to pick up on things that just introducing that so that the viewer kind of takes something away from it. If it, my judgment for, if we're doing well, is if it feels like fast, like, oh man, they're showing me a lot of shots and I can't quite process them, that usually means I don't have a great handle on the broadcast, like I'm not, I'm not in control of what's important, like the broadcast slows down a lot when you are locked in on what's important. So, that's, I would say my main role in trying to put it together in a way that it doesn't, like, break the illusion of, break the illusion that you're, 'cause they don't, they don't wait for each other. These guys are all, these guys and girls are usually throwing at the same time. So, it's my job to kind of piece it together in real time. So, like, for, I think a great example is like, just 'cause it's the last time we did, it was Worlds. Sully, Sully Tippy had to throw in on fucking, and you could hear the cheers while we were teeing off on the, at the T of 14. So, like, my job is like, okay, Sully Tippy just threw in. How are we gonna present this to the viewer after we're done with the T-shots, or, or, you know, there's lots of options, or we could just go right away. Like, as soon as Sully Tippy throws in, hey, put it, put it in replay channel A, we're gonna do this now. I know there's one more player to T, but we're gonna do it now. Usually, we are patient and we just wait and, you know, you figure out the timing, that makes sense, but you can do anything with the timing. We can kind of put things where we want to. A big goal of mine is always, can I put things in a certain order so that it doesn't feel like, for example, I don't want Avelina to throw into a green, and then say, hey, on that same green, here's a player putting, that wouldn't make sense, even though, right, so like, this would happen a lot on whole 10, whole 10 at the Worlds, because that green, they were usually on top of each other, the groups, so I have to clear that green before Avelina throws her upshot, even though that might not have happened at that time. So like, that's kind of, I'm trying to make it so that it feels natural. And then the other big thing is the sponsors, like, being sure that all the sponsor obligations are being taken care of. - I never would have thought, it does, you do a great job, 'cause it does feel natural. You don't ever see Avelina throw onto a green, and then the next shot being Hannah putting on that green. - On that same green, yeah. - I never, I genuinely never thought about that, but you have those shots in the can, and it's when's the right time to show them. - Exactly. - Do you have a goal on the num, wait, we didn't finish? - Okay, I have two side questions, but let's finish your day. Okay, now we know what you're trying to do, you're trying to show us the arc, you're trying to make sure there's no noticeable bumps, you're trying to minimize the number of errors that happen throughout this thing, where a replay gets played backwards, for example. But now we're done with the second broadcast, it's 7pm, or whatever time it is. - What are you doing for the rest? You said then your day really starts. - Yeah, it used to be so much harder when I did not have as many people helping me out, and I'm so grateful that I have those people. But, so basically I put together the rundowns for the next day, so I'll say, okay, what was the, like, what was the biggest storyline from today? What was the biggest thing? If someone just tuned in to Round Four of Worlds, how do I catch them up from what happened to Round Three? So, I put together, like, okay, we're gonna need, and I keep using Evelina, example, 'cause she won, but we're gonna have an Evelina arrival, which means the camera ops, when they get there, they're gonna wanna shoot Evelina, like, getting out of her car or whatever. We're gonna need Evelina warming up, so that we can then transition into an Evelina package of highlights that Connor and Blake put together, and then we're gonna go to a graphic to put some numbers to the visual that you just saw. We call it tagging, like, tag the, I always try and tag a visual with some number, so, or tag the, maybe it's just we just do the number, and then you're tagging the number with the visual, either way, and then we're gonna go to the tee. After the tee shots, we're gonna do this walkie talk, idio walkie talk, whatever, and I gotta set up that walkie tool, text the player, hey, Missiganin, would you mind doing this walkie talk with us? You'll say, sure, so putting all that together, I usually do it through from the start to when the lead card is like a hole in, is kind of how long it is scripted, and after that, we're kind of improvising, 'cause you can only script so much. - But you actually do script that first, it's probably close to a half hour. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I mean, it's not only that, sometimes we'll say like, hey, I know I'm gonna go to break on hole eight, so I need this on hole eight. Now, we don't do that as often, but yeah, there's no limit, and I actually script the end to show now as well, where we script it like, okay, final putt, what are we doing after that? So that's kind of a new thing that we're doing. - So you're on the call in the morning, two hours before you go live. - And one of the things you're doing is telling the camera operators, go watch for whenever Lena pulls up so we can get her getting out of her car. - Exactly. - And camera guy doesn't just happen to be there, he's told to be there. - Correct, yes. Yeah, and Ian is really on top of that stuff. So the kind of delineation of duties, I would say, is like, I'm in charge of scripting all that out, and then Ian's in charge of executing it. That's kind of a really good way to think about the producer, director, breakdown of role. Like, we need to be in lockstep, it's a two person job, basically. So I'm kind of more, I'm thinking like, what's gonna happen in four things? And then Ian's thinking about like, how do I execute the thing that my mood is thinking about in four things, but he's kind of more in real time, and I'm kind of like, I'm kind of more like looking ahead. So honestly, one of the biggest issues, like one of the biggest mistakes that like what, something that creates a lot of mistakes, is I'll say, hey, we're gonna do this, like, hey, prepare this, hey, we're gonna do this. And they're like, oh, right now. And it's like, no, no, no, no, not right now. Like, I'm thinking like two things ahead. And sometimes there's miscommunication there. That's why I have to always have to be very, very clear, like prepped this thing, or hey, we're gonna do that after this thing. Like, it's very clear that I'm, I have to be very clear that I'm telling them. And that's where I sometimes run into trouble, is where like, you, 'cause sometimes things are happening in real time as you're doing them. So it's gonna be like, hey, we're gonna go to replay channel A, replay channel B. And then while we're in replay channel B, it'll be, hey, this thing is happening right now on camera four, put it in replay channel A. So this is like in real time, like five seconds. It's a matter of seconds. Like if Marky's the second late and Ian's the second late, all of a sudden we can't do the thing at A, 'cause now they're showing up on camera one, two and three. And sometimes it'll be like, hey, just still go to A, we're gonna be late there. We're gonna put what's happening right now in one, two and three and B. And so it's just kind of like, you're just talking constantly for like four hours. It's just, it's very, it's extremely stressful. But it's fun, it's fun. Like you don't, you wouldn't do it if it wasn't like, I love sports. It's like my favorite thing in the world when someone does something really cool. And it's like, okay, how can I present that to the viewer at home in such a way that makes it like even more interesting or whatever. - Now, I know that during the MVP open, after any particular day, I have no clue who's winning. And I can ask my brother who just filmed the lead card, who's winning? And he says, I don't have any idea. I saw somebody throw it in on 14, but I don't know who's winning. Do you, oh, you have to know who's winning. - We have to, yeah. - Literally your job. - Yeah, and you'd be, I mean, you'd be shocked at how easy it is to lose track of it. - Right. - Even where we're sitting. So I have three screens. I have one screen on my left where I just have the leaderboard. And I have also, I have two leaderboards. I have one that's sorted by who's winning. And I have one that's sorted by card, 'cause that's actually a lot easier to pick up. Like, oh, this person maybe isn't playing well, but they just birdied from 60 feet. I still wanna show that. So, oh, that's why the life's growing so important. Like it's very hard to pay attention to that many people at once. So, I mean, even think when you play a tournament, when people are like, what did you get after the whole, and you have a hard time remembering your own score, let alone someone else's, like I'm trying to do that for like 12 people. So anyway, but yeah. So I have that going on my left screen. On my main screen, I have my multi-view, which has a preview program. Those are the two big boxes. And I have, I'm pointing at it like it's on my screen, but then I have seven cameras across the middle. I have replay A channel, replay B channel, replay C channel. I have my assets, replay, or sorry, assets, graphics, booth, and there's like two other ones that I'm forgetting at the moment. But, oh, whole 18 camera, whole 18 camera. - Yeah. - I apologize. When you said you have seven cameras across the bottom, those are live cameras. - Exactly, exactly. So I have seven live cameras. - And then you have three replay slots. - Yes, which are loaded up with different assets. - Which is like, exactly. - And then you have the booth. - And I have, yeah. So I can see if Nate says like, you know, if I'd say something, hey, Charlie, did you hear me say that? And Charlie can just give me a thumbs up quick. - So that's just a dozen little, little boxes there. - Yeah, yeah. It's something like that. I can't remember with the top of my head. I'm probably, I'm sure I'm missing something. Same thing with graphics. Like I can ask our graph operator with a swan or RC. I can say, hey, show me this graphic. Just make sure that you have the right one that I'm thinking of. - That's why it's snugging. - I'm sorry. - The drone. - Oh, yeah, the drone is usually camera seven, so. - Oh, okay, okay. - Yeah, okay. - Yeah. But yeah, it's all fun. It's fun stuff, you know, so, yeah, anyway. - So the one interesting thing, you were talking about showing a shot and then showing another shot and then trying to be four steps ahead. - Yes. - When we're watching DGN or YouTube on the first day or two, and we see shot after shot after shot, we can know in our minds that people listening to this podcast know, my mood's a little behind right now. He's frazzled because we're just seeing shot, shot, shot, shot, shot, and he can't quite keep up. Is that accurate? - No, no, no, that's actually, sometimes that's how we want it to be. That's how I want it to be. I want it to be fast paced, but like not chaotic. There's like a fine line. - Okay. - Shot, shot, shot, shot is great. That's actually what we want. We want it to just be like, here's golf, here's golf, here's golf. We want it to be a constant stream of golf. And I, you know, I personally, there's different philosophies on how to produce. You know, I had a lot of great mentors and producers at ESPN that I really looked up to. And one of my favorite producers named Danny Corralis, his big thing was like, it's not, the show's not about you. It's not, or by you, I mean, the producer. It's not about, like, 'cause some producers will be like, well, I prepared this segment. And I've looked how smart I am. Like, I want to show you, like, look at this smart thing I prepared and Danny's big thing was like, it's not about the thing I prepared. It's about what makes sense in that moment for the viewer. So, like, sometimes it's really easy to be like, well, Isaac just birdied three in a row, or four in a row, whatever. Let's go crazy and do this Isaac thing, like, do this Isaac package. And it's like, well, yeah, but this person over here also like birdied a bunch of holes. And like, just trying to balance out, it's a fine balance between celebrating certain things that are happening, drawing viewers attention to something that's happening versus getting out of the way and letting the players do what they're doing. So, you know, in the final round, it's much more important to be like, hey, Isaac just birdied four in a row, he has a five-shot lead, like, pay attention to that. In the first round, it's much more important to just be like, you know, Ricky Wysock, he just did this, Paul McBut just did this, Missy Ganon just did this, Paige Griffith. Like, we want to show people their favorite players as much as we can while still being kind of narrative driven. We can't show everything. It's, you know, I think one of the pieces of criticism or feedback that I see is like, well, why don't they show me every single shot? And, you know, theoretically we could, I suppose, but even, like, even in theory, if we could, I don't know that it would make for pleasant viewing, it would just be like almost too much. And we'd have to cut them so tight that you wouldn't get to like, you wouldn't get to understand what happened to each shot. So, we try and give appropriate pad on the front and back side of each shot where it feels like, okay, I see the shot. I understand what they're trying to do. The shot ends and I have a feeling of like, okay, completion to that shot. We want the commentators to have enough time to talk about each shot. So, it's not just about like, shot, shot, shot, shot, shot. I mean, if we were doing that, I honestly think it would be less enjoyable. And, you know, yeah. - If I was gonna, if I was gonna error one way or another, and I personally would say show less shots. - So, yeah, give them, and in general, you do a great job with this, but giving the shots time to breathe. - Exactly. - I'm watching a live sporting event. I don't, don't take this the wrong way. I don't mind when Ganon Burr takes 35 seconds. - Yeah. - It's a circle two putt. It's very important. Every time he's trying to get, while he's getting ready, the tension is building. And there's a reason that he's taking that time because that shot matters. I think you guys do a really good job of giving the shots time to breathe. - Yeah, it's certainly a balancing act. And we don't get it perfect all the time. You know, we're doing our best, I promise. Like, I think it's one of the hardest things. Like, people make these comments and it's so mean. And it's like, I promise we're trying so hard. Like, it's not, it's not for lack of effort. - Oh my, you said you have five people in the booth. - Right. - Yeah, and our production team. - And you're not even all in the same room. - No, no, no, no, no, we've never, I actually haven't even met our graphics operator. He lives in Columbia, actually. And we have our other graphics operators in Finland. But, so yeah, we have director, producer, our AD, our associate director who plays out the assets is also our A1, our like audio person who's just keeping track of all the audio levels and channels and whatnot. And then we have our replay operator, Marki, who's also like a tape producer, essentially. And then we have our graphics dissolved. - You guys are not able to, after the round, go out and have a beer together and laugh and joy and feel positive about what you've done. But I wish to goodness you could do that. - I almost, honestly, I almost wouldn't want to. Like when you're, no offense, and like, I think it's just like, when you're talking to these people nonstop for like the last thing I want to do is, no offense, I love all the people I work with. But like, it's just the last thing I want to do is talk to anybody. I just, like sometimes I'll go to my parents' house after like a long weekend. And my mom will try talking to me. And I'm just like, just please feel the love of God. Just like give me like 30 minutes and no one talking. I just, I can't have more talking. Like it's just voices in your head the whole time. And it's, 'cause you have to separate out the commentators are in your ear, you're hearing the commentators the whole time, just like the viewer at home. - Yeah. - Plus you hear all the people in the control room talking and we're talking constantly. So it's just lots and lots of voices in your head. And yeah, so it's fun. - So you have the commentators going and then you're watching 12 cameras and you're talking to each other constantly. - Yes. - Do you ever hear the commentators say something that's maybe not correct or maybe you aren't gonna do? And then you say, oh, crap, we have a little fire right now. Does that kind of thing happen? - No, yeah, that'll happen from time to time. I think, you know, we've told our commentators like, please don't do that. So sometimes, of course, it's just a human error. - Yeah, exactly. Sometimes our commentators will ask for a certain replay and we maybe don't have it at the moment, but we're pretty good at getting queued up. One of the things that I need to get better, oh, not need to get better at, but like one of the things that like, I don't need to get better at is appropriate. One of the things I would like to get better at is a lot of the times we're just marking shots for, 'cause we know we're showing all to Eagle shots, for example, 'cause Eagle's playing well. I don't get them, but we just final round of worlds. And we don't necessarily look at every shot. Sometimes we just mark it, 'cause I know I'm gonna show this Eagle shots, we mark it. Now at the worlds, in particular, we might not have time to show every single thing. So like, sometimes we'll just show the shot that is like the more appealing, the visually, more visually appealing of the two. So you'll notice this happens a lot at world, like bigger events in the final round. Like, you know, the drive is just the drive. And I think three was a perfect example at worlds, where the drive is like pretty straightforward. Okay, we don't necessarily need to see that, but the upshot where it lands by the basket, I do need to see that. So we might just skip to the second shot. Something that we make the mistake of doing sometimes, and we made this mistake literally on hole eight at worlds. And I was kicking my, I watch back every broadcast, so I try and pick up the mistakes, but like, this was a mistake we made. Eagle threw a crazy drive on hole eight, and his upshot was pretty, you know, perfunctory, whatever, and. - Oh, yeah, I remember the shot. - Yeah, yeah, so his upshot was pretty simple. And we're in that mode where like, I need to get through this Eagle shot, because the action on the lead card is very exciting. And Eagle's not, ultimately is not relevant to the conversation who's gonna win. So, so I need to, okay, so we don't have time to show the tee shot, 'cause they're approaching the eighth tee. Like I said, I don't want to show a tee shot, and then here's these guys teeing off on the eighth, it doesn't really make sense. So I'll tell Marky, hey, let's just go to the second. Here's the upshot, and then we'll show the upshot. He's five feet away, he's gonna make birdie there. And then Nate will say, oh, wow, that was a huge drive, that to be his upshot. And I'll be like, dang it, like we didn't pay enough attention real time to notice that drive. That's, we missed, that's something we miss. That's like, if we miss something, that's usually it. It's like a big drive on a big open hole, which from the, when you're looking at the cameras, it doesn't look that impressive. But like the commentators will notice that the upshot is quite short. So like, what we'll do there sometimes is we'll be like, here's the tap in for birdie, and then we'll go back, it'll do like, here's a replay of the drive that got him there. So that's how we kind of work around it. That's what we did, I think, at on hole eight, but yeah. - That leads me to one of the questions I have written down. Do you keep track of errors? Do you have a number of errors that you know you made and you want to try to over time bring that down to some reasonable number? - Yeah, so in my, I don't know where my notebook is, but I have a notebook in front of me during every show, mostly for keeping track of ads, but I also have two columns. I call one column making TV, and I call one column, just like mistakes. Now the making TV column, I'll put anything there where I'm like, oh, we did something cool. Like that was like a cool moment, cool segment, great job. And I'll put like stuff in the mistakes column when it's like an obvious mistake. Like I wouldn't call that eagle thing like a mistake, that's just like, that's more just like, no one at home is affected by it, it's just like, it's not like we like had a camera dip, like that I would call a mistake, or it's not like we, you know, used the wrong wipe or something. You know, it's just simply, maybe it's not as artistic as we would have liked it, but it, but it's not like out. So I keep track of that, those things, you know, we notice a lot more than what the folks had noticed and then we're pretty particular. So I would say, you know, on a given broadcast or somewhere between, I don't know, five to 10, 10 to 15, 15 to 20, like in that number of mistakes, where it's like, that was, there's just, there's no, the person at home noticed, that's where I define it as a mistake. So yeah, there's no specific number, but yeah. - The short answer is yes, you keep track of them. - Yeah. - And yes, you, you, I don't know if you'd review that, but then the goal is to minimize that. That's one of the things. - Exactly, yeah. And I mean, we'll talk about it with folks. I usually talk about it with Ian. He's kind of, like I said earlier, he's in charge of like in real time execution. So those, you know, me and Ian will talk, not after every round necessarily, but most rounds me and him will kind of review what happened. So yeah, it's a very, it's a very hard gig. I have, you know, I always tell everyone that I work with in the control room in particular, like I'm never going to be hard on you, on a mistake you make in real time, because it's very hard. Like sometimes you just push the wrong button, sometimes like I can't be too critical of that. What I can be critical of is your process and your preparation and your focus. So if there's a lack of those things, then we have to have a conversation. But like, if it's just like, oh man, yeah, I just hit the wrong button. Or I mark this in too early. I do that all the time. Ian's actually gotten on me about that. We're all marking in on a replay too early. And then like the camera op wasn't quite set up yet. So they'll move again to get into a slightly better position. I didn't see that 'cause I just saw them set up the first time. So I'll mark the end and then they'll move again. So like those are like those small little things that we try and eliminate, but... - So I have two, thank first of all, thank you very much for taking the time. - I love this is my favorite thing to talk about. I love to you. It's like honestly very fun. - You segued into my final two questions perfectly with that. And I'll just go in the order that I wrote them. Earlier you were talking about someone made a package. I don't remember who it was, but someone like did something great. It was Luke Taylor did something great. And you made a package, but then Nicolas had the roll away and it doesn't make sense to celebrate Luke Taylor's great shots while we're all feeling this pit. - Yes. - And so they went out of their way. They created this package and it never got shown. - Correct. - Does that happen much? Does that happen very little? What's the deal with those? - Yeah, it's probably like in somewhere around 75% of the stuff doesn't get shown, I would say. - Does not get shown. - Does not get shown. I can even pull it up for you right now. So I'm round one of worlds. This is the list of packages that were built. Kristen wins two time worlds. We showed that one obviously. Kristen struggles at the majors. Kristen sweeps the majors. generic good own the season. generic good haul in the season. generic good own the season we never use 'cause own didn't play world well at worlds. - Silver Sarnen dominates the Euro chart. We didn't show that to speak. - Mom, I try to keep these under three hours. So I'm going to cut you off. - Yeah, but the list of, but so you're going over a list of packages there and you've got X and you use .25 X. - Something like that, yeah. - Does anybody get upset and say that package was awesome. - I try and tell folks at the beginning of the year and it's really hard. It's really hard. You never want to waste someone's effort. But it's like I said earlier, it's not about us. It's not about us pricing the thing. It's about the folks at home and what makes sense for them. And I'm never going to, as a producer, that's kind of my responsibility to decide what makes sense and what doesn't. And I'm never going to put something in because someone spent a lot of time on it. As much as I would like to. Like it's, it's, you know, it's just, you know, we have to think about what makes sense most of the viewer at home. And in that moment, you know, Lou Taylor, I think even through in on 14, the final day too. It's just like the literally the next moment was Nicholas. So it's just like, I was literally setting up as Luke Taylor through in it. I was like, okay guys, here's what we're going to set up after the whole, this is wild. Nicholas is like getting ready to put. We're going to walk off Luke Taylor then we're going to go to assets with the package and then we're going to, and then Nicholas, and I was like, okay, scratch that plan. Now we're going to set up the, and then we're prepping the Nicholas replay. So that's how fast it happens. - Yeah, I hope our listeners and viewers get to have a deeper sense of what it is they're watching and knowing when something dramatic happens that shifts the scores on the leaderboard that breaks somebody's heart, that knocks somebody out of the tournament, that there's a crew of five people sitting in all over the world who Mamoud is now saying, okay, we got to do a whole bunch of different things right now and they're not scrambling. They're doing their jobs and it's, but there's just a lot of reacting going on that we don't see, but we do enjoy. So I will say that. And I want to close my final question to you. And I want to celebrate these five people. You've mentioned Ian, you mentioned Gary, you didn't mention the other people, I don't remember all their names. Number one, I'd like to know all their names and what they do, but number two, I'd like to know, you've got five people. Sometimes I watch the PGA. So let's pretend I'm watching the Masters. How many people do they have doing these five jobs? Doing the jobs of these five people. It would be hard to even know what their setup looks like, but I would, you know, I'm honestly not sure. It would be hard for me to guess, probably like in the neighborhood of, I'm going to underestimate just to be like positive that I'm right. Oh, no, no, let's overestimate. Let's have fun with it. We're all friends here. I would say at the very bare minimum, it's 20. And at the maximum, it's like 80 to 90. 'Cause like they're doing so many different broadcasts. They do four or five broadcasts at once. So I would say on their main broadcast show, I would be shocked if it's fewer than 20. Okay. 'Cause like most of the time, all these roles are split up into multiple roles. Right? Right. All the roles that we are doing are usually split out. Like I was saying like the director, usually there's a technical director and the director director. So Ian's doing two of those. I'm doing producer tape producer and replay operator. Usually that's three different people. Markie is a tape producer and a replay operator. So that's two different people right there. David is the AD and the A1. So that's two different people right there. And then our graphics is actually the only person, I think that is doing one job, but they're usually graphics is split up into multiple roles. You have your graphics producer and you have your operator, your graphics operator who is literally like hitting push play on the button versus the other, there's a person usually setting up the graphic and a person playing out the graphic. So yeah, I think between Ian, Markie, David, myself, are Caitlin, it comes in every once in a while. We have RC who's in Finland and we have Juan who's in Columbia. And that, you know, shout out to Gary for finding those folks all across the world. That's one of the cool things about our cloud setup where I think we are, we're about as cutting edge as you can get with that. I think other companies are gonna start moving in our direction where you don't have a physical control when you have people kind of spread out like this because it's just, it's so much more efficient. We actually tried, me and Ian went to the USDGC to do a show in person. And it was so much worse than being remote 'cause like when I'm remote, I can set everything up exactly how I need it and there's no one talking to me. And it's just like, it's very focused whereas when you're on site in a truck, now you miss that energy obviously, but this is how we've found to be the most efficient. - Mamu, thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us. And even more than thank you very much for sharing your significant skills with Disc Golf. You mentioned that you started with the SKN and you did a lot of stuff there and then you moved into this role and Disc Golf is better for it. Thank you so, so much. - Thank you, that's very sweet of you. Yeah, I'm learning every day. I think I've learned more doing this gig 'cause we're doing it from the bottom. You know what I mean? Like we're building it together. We're building this thing that we don't, every time we learn something, every week I feel like we make some new innovation. Whereas at ESPN that was never the case. I'm more impressed honestly by a resume of someone who, like when someone says like, I worked at CNN, ESPN and name another big company Fox. I'm actually like less impressed by that 'cause I know from my own experience that if you're working at those big companies, you probably were not in charge of very much. Whereas here, like if any one of us is off of our game, it's like very obvious 'cause there's so few of us. So yeah. - So we will need to do this again 'cause I forgot to ask you anything about the future, but perhaps the off season is a good time to do that. And we can talk about the things we're gonna look forward to. I look forward to having another conversation with you again. - Love it, thank you Steve, I appreciate it. - Thank you, my mood, have a good day. - You too, thank you. - Thank you all for watching. That does it for us today on Disc Golf Daily. If you have any thoughts, news or opinions, shoot us an email Disc Golf Daily at aol.com. Have fun, throw 'em straight, tell a friend about Disc Golf Daily, and hit the thin down. All right, and we're done. (upbeat music) - Thank you so much for watching. 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