Test Match Special

View from the Boundary - Clive Tyldesley

Jonathan Agnew welcomes legendary football commentator Clive Tyldesley to the TMS commentary box. They discuss the role that Reg Gutteridge had on Clive's career, how long Clive takes to prepare his notes for a football match, and his brief time commentating on cricket.

Duration:: 38m
Broadcast on:: 10 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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That's $50 off with code listen at bluenile.com. BBC sounds music radio podcasts. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Our guest is one of the most familiar voices of sport broadcasting for the past 30 years commentating on some of the most memorable football moments this country has seen his broadcast on seven men's World Cups on so many other things and his voice has accompanied many fans through the trials and tribulations of the England football team. I'm going to have a go at this. Perhaps his most famous line came in 1999 when he uttered the immortal and so sure has won it. Very good. Is that okay? Absolutely. I'm auditioning here to conclude the remarkable Champions League final to embark on muting a man's united. His commentary chart to the stuff of legend too. You've heard his voice already big cricket fan. Clive Tillsey welcome. Welcome is that okay? Thank you very much for having me. Yeah I'm getting a little concerned for what I've got left. It's my job. I don't think you need to worry about that. Hey so we'd have it here. And isn't it nice when you sort of move around between sports to come and sit in somebody else's commentary box. I always love doing that. Doing seeing how other people how the people go about the same business as we do. Yeah we're radio you're from normally telly but how does it feel? How does it look? How's the view? It's sitting where the greats have sat. The the greats of our profession and I've had sport in my life throughout my life. Cricket included but actually if if you'd have asked my late parents what did I want to be when I was 14. And I was never going to be good enough to be a professional sportsman. I wanted to be a sports commentator. Yeah you knew even then. Well I certainly knew I wanted to. Yeah. There are an awful lot of 14 and 15 year olds listening now who want to. And we should never forget that you know we're very very lucky to have had the opportunity to do what we've most wanted to do. For that little moment that break that little door opens. I think the first break is the biggest break. And as I was graduating from university yeah it was 1975 at a time when I think there were three or four media courses in the entire UK further education system. Now there are three or four at every university. I graduated in Nottingham as the commercial radio station was opening. They needed two or three runners, tea boys, tea girls. And I managed to bang on the door loudly enough to get one of those jobs. And once you get your foot in I mean I don't know how your cricket career began. But once you've given your first opportunity you are not leaving that dressing room are you? Well you're not and that's why sometimes you'll get it I'm sure doing your job live. But when I hear a player saying yeah I've been ever so lucky to do this never so lucky to do that I guess I get the first I get it to a bit. You're lucky enough maybe to have been given the chance to play the game or you've been lucky enough to have some skill over but after that it's hard work. After that you have you once that door is open a jar and you've got that moment which is often a bit of luck. You've got to go through that door you've got to kick it in and work hard to make to make the most of what you've been presented with I think. Yeah I mean I get an awful lot of of mail and inquiries from people who want our jobs. And in this the way that the education system is now in universities I've spoken at an awful lot of these universities and the studio facilities there are fit for purpose for network broadcasting. So in many ways the graduates come out of and ready to work. So how do they make themselves more employable than the next graduate that's coming out? You've got to be proactive and I say to them you've got to start to think like a broadcaster throughout your university career you've got to analyze every piece of content not just sport but if you're watching a drama or a news program and ask yourself how could I make that better how can I make that more relevant how can I reach more people with the content that they're putting out because it's all about communication and communication has changed every day of our careers isn't it? It's evolving all of the time. How we do it the way it's done all and the technology of course. Yeah the nature of the audiences I mean weirdly television audiences are shrinking and because there's so much choice now so many different platforms so many niche areas in which to pick up the content you're looking for for your particular interest in life. So when a BBC or ITV commentator commentates on an England game at a major tournament to 25 plus million people it's a unique opportunity in broadcasting this is bigger than the strictly final bigger than the jungle final you are connecting with the nation and their opportunity as well as the dilemmas that go with that. Do you think about those numbers do you think about the scale? I think that I'm going to mention him straight away because I'm sure we'll get around him eventually. I had a mentor in the early part of my television career and many of your listeners will have heard of Reg Guttridge. Sad a little late Reg Guttridge a wonderful boxing commentator. I didn't ask him to mentor me he he took me under his wing it was tough love there was more criticism than praise along the way but one of the many key lessons that he gave me was to visualize your audience. Do you identify your audience and talk to them and the audience for that World Cup semi final that I that I covered for ITV involving England which was touching 30 million is a different audience to a Europa conference league game on a Wednesday afternoon on TNT to an audience of 30,000 absolute football nuts. He would argue that there's an argument for explaining the off-side law at some stage during that audience of the 30 million. He'd always go back to that maths class that we've all sat in where we've got 20 minutes in and we're staring at the teacher and thinking to ourselves I haven't understand really heard of this. But you don't put your hand up and some sports commentary is a little bit like that. I think I think actually during the Olympic Games in some of the smaller sports there's a danger that the aficionados of the sport commentate to other aficionados instead of welcoming us all into a sport that we don't know and you've got that dilemma it's such a good point every day it's absolutely true. You work because cricket is a very technical game you know cricket nuts like salts don't need anything explaining to them but your ambush listener does. You need to welcome them in and that was Reg's big message. Be inclusive, commentate to your grandma, don't commentate to the England manager. It is great advice. I mean I don't know how often we try and explain the LBW law on the radio about people saying oh not again but but you're right you absolutely do need to try and but you're trying to get new people in aren't you? I mean the game you mentioned I've never done anything with football but I'll probably be sitting and watching it and know nothing about what was going on in the next year. Absolutely it's one of probably five games in the year that you watch and so you and you count one in terms of the viewing figure every bit as much as anybody else out there. Communication's wonderful. I mean it's been compromised by all kinds of things not least Covid and by the rather poisonous nature now not just of social media but a lot of the the main media are essentially client journalists to some agenda or others and I think sport is different you know I think sport is independent I think you guys are critical of selectors you're critical of captains you're critical of players that have played shots in the bad shots in an analytical sort of a way. It might be wrong but you still give it a penny yes yeah if the guys walk in back to the pavilion you're probably not wrong that's true that's very true let's start with your cricket then go live shall we because funnily enough I'm just doing a little bit of background stuff you and I actually by the look of it's all fell in love with the same team I mean you're a little bit older me not very much but but same that Lancashire team of well late 60s 1970s certainly yeah that was that was a team that I followed avidly and which got me into cricket well I was born in Radcliffe which is between Barry and Bolton which would now be greater Manchester but when I was born it was in Lancashire and we were very proud of being Lancastrians and I was very fortunate in so many ways my dad took me to to Old Trafford to watch Manchester United when I was four five years of age and so I saw best law in Charlton in the flesh but in addition to that he had an interesting cricket so I went to Old Trafford to watch that great one day Lancashire team and also the the Lancashire rugby union team I was actually at a rugby playing school at that time had probably a third of the England team too so in many ways those guys the Clive Lloyd's and the Bill Bowman's were as much heroes to me as the Manchester United players were and I got to see them and I actually was I say born in Radcliffe and Radcliffe had a team in the central Lancashire league which was a focal point for the whole town for the whole village and if I tell you that the first two pros of my life at Radcliffe were Warrell and Sobers you get some idea of the level of central Lancashire league and Lancashire league cricket at that time a lot of West Indians would come over and play in those leagues wouldn't they and they were when you know much with me but they really did feel like they were the heart of the community and they they would make people always wander down and watch not all afternoon necessarily but it was just part of part of the yeah part of life he put Radcliffe on the map in it in in many ways and all these strange places which I can't even put on a map today like Milnerow and Wernath came to play again and it seemed like they were coming from another planet it seemed like miles away you know to to come and play against our team I had a couple of uncles were on the committee there so I was heavily involved and the other crazy thing was that when I came into the world the house that I came home to the first home that I lived in we were next door to the very manager at the time and lived next he was my uncle Dave and my auntie Gladys so I was almost inside track from the from the very beginning and I had a couple of cousins who were cricket mad too and we said I know you loved Peter Lever who is one of the big boaters of that at that Lancashire team and we could do his action and we could do that jaunty jerky sort of perky run up that he had Ken shuttleworths from the other end had a big sort of wheel of the arms and the legs just before he but we could do all of those actions so they were they were heroes to me as much as the footballers was check one thing out because tilde okay it is is it a very common northern aim and I'm thinking here I'm working it round that there there is there a possibility that you are related to Michael Vaughan well I'd like to I'd like to think not he is really a Yorkshire minister he's he's the great great nephew of Johnny and Ernest yeah who of course played furnace entry yeah played for England yeah were they all relative I don't know is the truth I've never done that the town of Tillsley is very close to where my father originated boots down walked and for anybody knows that that part of greater Manchester and I certainly spent an awful lot of my childhood in that area but now I've never done that truth into my family history I was an only child of probably I don't know if that's a that's the symptom of somebody who doesn't really want to know though I don't know I'll be you might be his well don't know how it would work out what you'd be related to Michael but yeah so he is yes he's great great nephew of he's a great great broadcaster he's not here is he no he's not that good did you so you're practicing in the garden you're Peter Leavers in your country just like this is exactly what I was I was the only ever school level though I I um I had in that words of my first games teacher at Kirkham grammar school which was my secondary school between Preston and Blackpool I had a nice action and he could see a spin bowler because of the nice act I just wanted to sling it down there as fast as I possibly could like you did yeah but he tried to make me a spin bowler without ever really teaching me how to spin the ball I just gripped the ball in a strange way and it came out differently every time which gave me the novel value that if I had no idea what was going to happen when it bounced the batsman sure didn't either and as a batsman I was very very correct I couldn't get it off the square but they they would tend to send me in at number one because I had quite a a straight bat and I could hang around for a while but any kind of hostile building and I was standing on the toes of the square leg umpire don't you worry I couldn't wait to get out of there so I was a much better cricket scorer you can tell salt so then I ever was a cricket player oh well that's sort of big sense of your your notes then doesn't I guess so that the famous 71 Gillette Cup semi-final which we were discussing a little bit earlier which again for senior listeners was a match between Lancashire and Gloucestershire at Old Trafford which finished at about quarter past nine at night was so dark sensational it's obviously and at the end of the match everybody at Old Trafford ran on to the to the square in in jubilation except this one 12 year old boy sitting in the stands finishing his building analysis yeah yes I would that would be me then okay can you can can you actually remember it because okay so I was I went to the final so you were at the same idea I went to the final yeah I was the first go cricket diver saw really yes oh again with that Lancashire team of course you know they're the way I could list them off good good for them so can you actually remember I remember I'll watch that one on the telly I think I'm pretty sure I'll get salt to check it I think Arthur Jepsen was one of the umpars is one of those old characters that day because David Hughes I think at one stage said to the umpire of course dark out here I think they stopped Michael Proctor bowling um Proctor was bowling yes very good he had that very strange sort of wrong foot yeah delivery didn't he but very very fast and I think it's a little bit like when Chris works at a bowl for off spinners the other side yesterday um and John Mortimer came on um very very very late in the day you think they forced him on to come on do they I think well again I'm procky with it really yeah I've yeah I've got a feeling it's funny you were talking about 1030 starts earlier on today because all those Gillette cup ties started at 1030 it is you got 68 and whoever got put in was usually about 10 for four they buy 11 I went all over the place but I think David Hughes said to Arthur Jepsen in the course of the crocky oh it's it's dark out here you can't see a thing and legend has it that old Jepo is a lovely character pointed up to the moon which had now risen so can you see that up there and David Hughes says well yes and so Jepo said well how far do you obviously then they carried off and he cut it a couple in the direction of the moon yeah they finished up I think on the on the platform too at Warwick Road station so well they're great team and those are those semis and files and glossashire as well let's not forget them because they you know proctor shear they did they did play their part they were such such dramatic games that so many people could see and that that's on terrestrial yeah absolutely and it's so much for for cricket because you are out and I was out in our gardens being Peter lever and Ken shuttleworth is probably listening by the way I can because we could see them you know you could see them and and and it does yeah and and the memories are the still image of Clive Lloyd and Harry pulling out in the middle at Lord's in in one of those Gillette cup toes that that black and white still image in many ways is more vivid than any number of moving pictures yes I mean we just sound like we're prehistoric you know but that's what we had and that there was probably more of a naivety more of a mystique more of a magical sense of our relationship with our heroes then then there is now where you feel as if you can get somehow closer to them I always say that you would never see your favorite team center forward in Sainsbury's anymore when I was growing up they probably you probably would bump into them you know and I think actually a lot of the modern footballers would like to have more natural interaction with their fans but it's just not possible in the selfie age in the in the in the X and Twitter age it's just it's driven a distance between the sport and the heroes and the people that love them yeah the tms podcast from BBC radio five live at blue Nile calm you can find endless ways to make your moment sparkle from classic and timeless jewelry gifts to creating the custom engagement ring of her dreams all at prices you won't find at a traditional jeweler and right now you can save up to 40 percent on fine jewelry and 25 percent on engagement ring settings during the blue Nile anniversary sale going on now go to blue Nile calm to shop the blue Nile anniversary sale and save up to 40 percent that's blue Nile calm my dad works in B2B marketing he came by my school for career day and said he was a big row as man then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend my friends still laughing me to this day not everyone gets B2B but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do get a hundred dollar credit on your next ad campaign go to linkedin.com/results to claim your credit that's linkedin.com/results terms and conditions apply linkedin the place to be to be you've have compensated on cricket haven't you yeah i i my early television days were with Granada television in in the northwest of England i commentated on rugby league for them and really really enjoyed those two three years it was a very welcoming sport wonderfully honest sport really really liked my time around rugby league i was fortunate and obviously to be commentating on some of the best club football teams in the world in in regional television but yeah we did a couple of roses games the lead commentators were myself Martin Tyler and John Helm sort of kind and from a football background um i certainly did some work alongside Fred Truman oh wonderful which was vaguely intimidating i have to probably a little bit like facing him was intimidating yeah yeah didn't hesitate to put me right when i was often wrong i think maybe Paul Allitt worked on the show too funny enough i bumped into coffee a couple of months ago and we were talking about it and he he played and he played in the in the two roses matches that i commentate i wasn't very good how did you find it i just wasn't very good i just different i didn't know enough about the sport i hadn't i think it's interesting that that you have on your team on TMS uh a number of really really good broadcasters great admirer of Simon and Allison who haven't really played the game to a high level because most of the well-known cricket commentators on radio and television like yourself have have got professional experience and it's a different rhythm and a different game to football in football you almost need a name chord you almost need that professional broadcaster that guy mowberry peter dreary who whoever you know Martin Tyler john watson Barry Davis all the the greats of the past and then the co-commentator is i always define as somebody's been across the white line where i will never go and can come back and tell the rest of us how football matches are won and lost you've done both you've been across the boundary ropes you've sweated it out in in in test match cricket um i was fascinated listening to that interview you had when uh when gourd um decided that so you and beefy could bowl out so very good team bounce on a perfect wicked put it in but you've got those experiences to come back but the trick of the outstanding um performers turn broadcasters is to relate to those of us who've never been there and that and that can be difficult because you will know greats and over years word in in sport but you will know truly great cricketers who don't really know how or why they were great and so they can't tell the average person absolutely and actually do you know some of the very best analysts in football were um Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher are about to kill me actually work a day players who had to work hard at being as good as they were yep some of the most gifted footballers of all time are no good in terms of broadcasting because they can't tell you how they did it and that's true of coaches too yeah those massively gifted players that they they're no good at coaching because they can't put into words to people who want to be a wonderful striker who played for by did i think he played for England played for Bolton who had a wonderful character called Frank Worthington it was a remarkably gifted center forward yes and i was working for Granada in in Manchester and we had a feature program and he was an ex Bolton player and they had two bright young attackers called Folliskerken Reeves and the idea was to get Frank down to to give them some more advice as how to develop in their career and the first bit of filming we did he got somebody to chip the ball in he tested it down swiveled and voled it into the top corner and then said to the two guys now you do it and you could see them shrinking if instead of building them up and helping them they were thinking i will never be able to do that as long as i live and i said no you need to explain to them Frank okay knock another one in and he just tested it down swiveled and voled it in the other top corner and Reeves and Follisker open mouth there is a skill in being able to use your experience and pass it on it's the same in terms of of trying to mentor young broadcasters and that's where regs was regs was wonderful. I mentioned why he teamed up with regs because he was mainly boxing wasn't he so absolutely how did your paths cross then? He was the most wonderful company i was in awe of him whenever i was around him socially i mean it's back to the story we could talk through to the tea until he lost a leg in the war and he was famous stories about him going swimming and and holding his leg up and shouting sharks to a beach for that that was regs sense of humor but he was a journalist really and he had that kind of background and he always saw commentary as a piece of journalism all of that information that you see on our commentary charts hopefully you would only ever use 10% of that because it anybody can research it but how and when and if you use it correct information correctly in order to amplify what people can already see and that's where regs introduced that that element of journalism hopefully into into certainly my work and and any advice that i try to pass on. Yeah that's that's interesting because it's a good contrast again because that's that's discipline isn't it you know my mentor was a was an astonishingly natural broadcaster was he is brandy on star i mean you wouldn't call him disciplined at all but that that was that was the charm that was the success of him yeah the fact that he could communicate and talk to anybody about anything without notes and without he wouldn't he would sit down to commentate with a scorecard that he had filled in he had big loopy writing so he'd had you know poke bowl so and so and a scorecard and you'd have one one listeners letter just in case things got a bit boring a bit sticky you'd have one lesson he wrote for a newspaper I think didn't he did he did he Brian not what I was okay okay I thought he had that journalistic care Richie Vedo did yeah definitely I don't think Brian ever wrote for a newspaper it's a weird thing I never met Brian Johnston I would love to have met him it really is a broadcast hero of mine everything I've heard about him is that I would not have been disappointed if I'd been lucky enough to me and it's strange when he died I felt a sense of loss as you do with somebody you build a relationship up and that's that's what our job is really to try to build a relationship with people we will never meet and they played that clip of you two I think here was it always up the other end corpseing on the and part of me was angry because although I can listen to that clip endlessly and it will always make me laugh I felt that it was underestimating what Brian Johnston could do as a broadcaster yeah of course if there was a raw funeral or a a Remembrance Day service at the the BBC were looking for gravitas they turned to Brian Johnston right he could do everything he could make you laugh yes and I was laugh but he could do the serious stuff too and he could describe a scene that's what Brian's greatest strength and I would think he read cricket very well oh yeah it was a proper cricket I mean he was he was school second eleven he wasn't any you know he wasn't a you know he was he paid the club cricket we wasn't term it wasn't a good cricketer as such you know a very amateur wiggy keeper who loved the game who loved the traditions of the game but what he did love was also he sort of brought the characters alive because of his description you could really visualize and Brahmas culminating I felt and being young listening to him as also transfixed listening to it feeling that you were there but also making it feel that it was fun and that cricket is a sport that you want to be involved in whether it's playing watching umpire and scoring or whatever it may be and that's that's what I loved about Brian's cricket but you're right there was more to them than that much more you know the early days of television outside broadcast in town tonight Saturday nights you know in commercial TV movies like in the 50s that would be hairy in life absolutely yeah well there'd be none you'd be hanging on the horses I mean it was a madcap and all the backup that you know we're fortunate to have now you know Henry looks after you are every inch of the way I have to tell everybody Henry Moore and just most of Jonathan's work for him you know it's the producers that really matter what would know well we do get very well produced I would think in in joners this day it was little or no no no absolutely and rehearsal I don't know but he was in cutting edge cutting edge of broadcasting yeah it was a flight to the moon really a live broadcast I was brought in by ITV for the 1986 World Cup finals just to be in London they were in Mexico just to be on standby for every game in case the lines went down and sure enough the opening game the lines went down you know and you couldn't you couldn't rely on getting a live signal from Mexico in 1986 in order to watch what did you do well Brian Moore strangely who was the the senior commentator for ITV at the time was presenting in London for the group stage and 45 minutes before the game the the the head of football had to take this difficult decision whether to use this look rookie radio reporter they'd pour down from Liverpool or to use the great Brian Moore and they decided to use the great Brian Moore which was fine yeah they didn't even have a go at it I didn't know I did I did a particularly poor demo and I didn't hang around for more than a couple of days after that I sent me home yeah I've actually got we had a it was my 70th birthday very recently we had a little party on Friday and I've got three rejection letters from BBC radio have framed yeah I used to have them on the office wall I'm not I'm not quite as bitter and vindictive anymore although it's coming back and I used to have them there as my motivation oh yeah I think it's supposed to be with room in the bin I so wanted to work for radio too did you you really really broke my heart sport absolutely yeah I want the complete rips perhaps you'd rather do football on the road I just wanted to work for the BBC I'd grown up you know I'd I'd grown up with Henry Longhurst and Pedro Sullivan and Dan Maskell and or McLaren and I just and and Mottie and Barry and I just so wanted to work for the BBC unfortunately I did get the opportunity for four years at the start of the 90s to work for BBC television yeah what do you think of the situation now where sport is flung so far and wide I'm talking in terms of broadcast media now I feel so sorry for the the average cricket fan in our case who the subscriptions that they have to buy sometimes just for short series in all in order to watch I mean football must be even worse isn't it I mean there must be so many places where if you wanted to watch every football match that there was or something how many subscriptions would you need I mean is that is that good for the sport or not and isn't that mean it's clear not good for the fan is it it's the nature of the beast and you can spend an awful lot of money on your your monthly television subscriptions now I think probably the the more relevant question is is how much do these sports need the exposure I was at a rugby playing school and obviously played cricket at school I mean cricket needs exposure it can there you know life is changing so quickly the people can go through school without really knowing what cricket is absolutely it was almost impossible for us yeah at least even if you were frightened of a cricket ball and couldn't play it was there it was part of your daily weekly diet of games I think cricket's got to be a little bit careful obviously there is now with the with the white ball game and the hundred and so on that there are more opportunities to sell limited overs cricket to terrestrial television and to a wider audience but I think it's important I don't know if it's if it's I feel sorry for sky because I think they do a wonderful job I really think sky's cricket coverage is outstanding totally committed I totally agree with it yeah and it's difficult to schedule cricket on on terrestrial television impossible no it is absolutely impossible it doesn't kick off at three o'clock and finish at five o'clock so it's probably where it belongs but it highlights don't really cut through anymore and okay it's nice to catch up with the day at the test from time to time if you've missed the day but that's not how we watch our sport we watch it live now and I think an awful lot of people are being denied the opportunity just economically because they can't afford to subscribe to all the channels to watch and be exposed to sports like cricket and rugby league I'll talk about your notes which are things of legend live I mean they are and I was well I mean look at my mind notes aren't very much are they it's a very different game it's different rhythm completely you don't need it I mean how long do you spend preparing preparing your notes um how long do you prepare for you enough for you enough time I mean obviously if I I'm doing champions return to the Champions League I'm still working everybody I work for now for CBS so they married a network that cover Champions League and I've got to is that live at the ground or is that enough yeah yeah two games in two days one in Milan one in Manchester the week after next and I'm starting because I haven't got any other work I can start to do my preparation for that all already but I think the notes are a bit of a comfort blanket it's how I've always prepared it was the style that I knit from the late John Watson really because he did very very neat notes and it's not so much the information that's on there hopefully you only ever use 10% of that otherwise you're boring your audience to I sometimes think no names that some of my colleagues should have a little crawler going across the bottom of the screen which says bloody well done this research bloody well gonna hear it you know well I think I think there's some truth in that or sit here well hopefully I'm not guilty or not as guilty in in that respect but it's like a say it's like a comfort blanket you when you look down at your notes when Mark Poogach or Laura Woods whoever hands to me you think well I've done as much preparation as I can never mess up and I might mess up then yeah so be it but do you think about messing up excuse you do actually think you do think about messing up no I think I mean I think you build up a confidence level as you go in I think there's there's more danger in the 21st century and then the words in the last century in terms of the words that come out of your mouth and how quickly you can end your career yeah but I don't I think I think that is true that's definitely in the back of the law yeah but I take on the responsibility that goes with broadcasting to a lot of people I take it seriously I try to think it through it's not a serious job we don't save anybody's lives we don't add anything to the GDP of the country but an awful lot of people are more engaged listening to sport than they are listening to politicians and so it matters to them and it matters to them so much that along the amongst the extremes on the fringes of the of the people who listen to people who are going to get genuinely offended and upset by something you may say and I think you've got to take that responsibility on the chin now yeah I must mention these world cups in five world cups um I don't know if it might be more than that is you know you don't know 94 was my first obvious more than that I may be seven is it I don't I don't anyway I've missed county probably but but the sheer scale and size of of those events yeah this must must be incredible yeah Ken it's the reach it's how the England national football team is still the biggest team in our country even in the Premier League with its millions and billions even with the commitment and the worldwide um following that clubs like Liverpool to Manchester United and Arsenal have the biggest television audience figures and I know that doesn't tell you everything but it TV audiences is a democracy you don't have to watch it the biggest television audiences are for England in into an office Scotland or Wales or or Northern Ireland those teams matter so much and they and it's very important that we protect those teams from the you know the more and more club fixtures that we find a place for international because all of the great heroes of my lifetime in my game in football are heroes of the nation from Bobby Moore you know all the way through Bobby Charlton and Gaza and the people we see on TV now shearer and Linnaker and so on all national sporting heroes because of what they did in the white shirt of England David Beckham not because of anything he did for Manchester United really it's what he did for England and the same is true of test cricket yeah that's what it is absolutely and that's going to finish that the sad thing is that you're never calling them home he's sort of having to bring us bring a tale of woe back all the time I mean the ride has been fantastic yeah just enjoy the view yeah club on that note it was absolutely true enjoy this view it's been lovely to have met you thank you very much thank you thank you for joining I love it chat the club chills with the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live hello I'm Greg James he's Felix why hello and that is England's greatest ever bowler Jimmy Anderson hello Felix what can people expect to hear on telenders loosely cricket based chat and we've proved Jimmy about not meeting Dalai Lama Jimmy what's your favorite thing about telenders I like hanging out with you guys and listen to you talk about cricket and then putting you right when you get everything thanks for supporters ever we also have some very special guests every now and then Stuart Broad so they're running into bowl and I'm going oh it's interesting the skippers bowl on the top end and your bowl in this thing because you know you only had dropped on it so I love it that's telenders listen now on BBC sounds go well selling a little or a lot Shopify helps you do your thing however you chitching Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business from the launch your online shop stage to the first real-life store stage all the way to the did we just hit a million orders stage Shopify is there to help you grow Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with the internet's best converting checkout 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms because businesses that grow grow with Shopify get a one dollar per month trial period at Shopify dot com slash work Shopify dot com slash work hey it's Mark Marin from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by progressive insurance and I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it well choose progressives name your price tool and you 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