(upbeat music) - Which is really embarrassing because my mother is an incredible seamstress and makes like quills and all this stuff, and I can't even, I don't. I just, no. Sewing machines are way too complicated. It's like, can my husband be the space shuttle? I can't even look. - I feel that way about a lot of technology stuff. - It's too much for me. (laughing) - Friends, welcome back to a slut's guide to happiness where your body is perfectly imperfect and it's safe to be a sexual, kinky, queer, or slutty as you want. Today, I'm excited to be joined by a person that I've seen to be wicked smart, spiritually grounded and a self-confident quiero. And I am very grateful that they are now part of the Cliff Media leadership and team and community. They've done a little bit of gang bang fucking, a little bit of big picture strategizing. And I'm excited about what we are continuing to build together both in the excavated porn that we do and the safe for work, educational materials, rooted inclusivity, body positivity, enthusiastic consent and joy. So on a personal note, Hannah has had non-monogamous relationships and queering kinky sex for a hot minute. Recently, they've been working on a book that I am so excited to read one day related to the role of BDSM kink as therapy. Oof, beautiful big topic that we're gonna dive into today. They have some profound ideas about how participation in kinky sex and kink spaces can impact so much more than just your sex life. I absolutely relate to this on a personal level and it's a subject we've danced around in previous episodes. For example, the podcast episode called Eratosizing Trauma Fear and Jealousy explores how kinks like cuckled role plays and consensual non-consent can be used to help people heal through fears of abandonment and the aftermath of sexual assault. Today, Hannah's gonna be taking this a step further describing how kinks can not only heal specific traumas and fears, but also transform how you think about yourself and what is possible in your life. So, Hannah, thank you so much for joining us today. - I'm so happy to be here. - I wanna start with the first moment that you discovered BDSM. And as a producer of video media, I was kind of excited to hear you say that it was visual arts that first inspired you and then you and your ex started exploring the real world. So can you share what was going on in your relationship then, what you watched and where you went after that and what were you thinking and feeling in that first foray? - Well, it's amazing to go from humble beginnings to gang bangs and big picture stuff being the top two items on my resume. Now, which I feel pretty good about. I think it's important to preface that my exposure, my introduction to BDSM was like a lot of people and the biggest weakness that people have is lack of access to knowledge, to information. I grew up in white middle class suburbia as an inculturated male person. And so therefore I had zero access to any kind of counterculture or what would be considered counterculture. And so I didn't have a name for anything. There were ideas that I had seen pictured in movies and TV shows, but they were always caricatures of the reality to give you kind of a skewed perception of what things really are. And this really manifested itself mostly in my gender journey. There were in the 80s and early 90s, there were undoubtedly thousands, millions maybe even of people who knew something didn't fit, right? But they didn't have a name for it. They didn't know what it was. And so they just sort of carried it as this weight. I'm not a fan of labels, but an identity is different than a label. A label is something somebody else gives to you. An identity is something you give to yourself. So it took me until my 30s, until actually my very first exposure to BDSM, to start learning those identities. And then from there it was a rocket ship. So I was sitting, you know, as people do, actually they get off work. They're tired, they have any energy to do anything other than e-talkable and watch television. And so I was sitting with my wife at the time and we had followed the progression of a lot of monogamous relationships and we'd been together for several years. Lots of tensions, builds, minor resentments and things and you go through bed death. You hang out together and stuff but the intimacy is more or less gone. So being a hyper touch focused individual that I am, that was agonizing. Because I wanted to reconnect and the only way that I knew how to do that was through touch and then, but touch wasn't on offer. And so I was just, through a sit and watching TV and this show came on and I believe it was called Our America. And there was a journalist who was traveling through the United States shedding light on things that most mainstream stories won't cover. A lot of counterculture stuff, ballroom and things like that. And one of the episodes that she did was on BDSM. And in the beginning of the episode, it was all the cliche things that you expect to see, you know, gimbal fits and people hanging from the ceiling and all that stuff. But then, true to a decent journalist's, you know, their mission, dug deeper into it and gave more information. And so, sitting there kind of more and more I was to fascinated in this whole world that didn't really know existed. And my wife turned and looked at me and said, "I want to do that." - Oh, that must have been such an exciting moment. - And I was just like, okay, let's do that. I was so excited because it meant this is a pathway to intimacy, to rekindle that intimacy. And if this takes these things, let's go. And it's amazing how big a role pure, naked serendipity can play in your life that who knows how much longer would have taken me to make the million and one discoveries that I've made since then had I not been sitting and watching that episode of that show on that day. Because my circle, my life hadn't changed. I was still presenting mail everywhere that I went trying desperately to fit into that space culturally, but we saw it and it just exploded from there and I'll do anything and a half measure. So I believe we were at Shebop within about 15 minutes. - What was Shebop? - Shebop is a sex toy kind of store in Portland, but it's-- - You were sitting watching TV and then you literally pieced on the door. - That day. - Oh my gosh. - That day went down and started trying to find things that looked fun to play with. And two people completely in their novitiate as far as any of this stuff is gonna be no idea what's going on. Most of those things ended up collecting dust 'cause they were not our jam, but we're like, "Ooh, this looks cool." You know what I have to say though? There's one thing that must be said. BDSM here is prohibitively expensive. I mean, my God, like $35 or a ball gag. So you get pretty creative inventing things and making them for yourself. Ball gags are easy to make, by the way. Don't anybody tell you a difference. Yeah, but that was the introduction. It's very simple beginnings, humble, like I said, just. And then both of us, I believe, we're looking for a different kind of release or escapism or whatever. But regardless, this one avenue provided that road and the benefits of it can't possibly be overstated. It was, you know, it's not a singular thing, but the benefits of it can't be encapsulated into this one through line. All of the butterfly effect of the million and one things that you learn about yourself and other people that are related ultimately tied back to this, like my gender journey, that never would have even started. So very, very transformative. Yeah. It's amazing, it sounds like it was a spark that it perhaps could have started anywhere, but it just led to this. It makes me think of the concept of keys don't have it. So if you change one thing, if it's related to a bunch of different pieces in your life, that just unlocks all the keys all the stories. For sure, it's like having a volcano right, and then it can't poke a hole on the top of it. And it was already there, all of this, you know, potential energy, just waiting to find a direction to go. All of this frustration and confusion and sadness and anger and all of these feelings that were tied up ultimately in the pretense that we are forced to oblige every day that we go about our lives. And I don't think enough people really understand the amount of internal tension that it causes that you open your door and as soon as you step out into the free air, you're pretending from moment to moment until you get home and maintaining the charade is exhausting. - Absolutely, yes. The freedom that comes from being able to be here authentic self, just that physical release. I know it's similar to that physical release of being pushed in a kink way. - Yeah. - So I wanna go to that moment 'cause I think it's something that's very familiar to a lot of people. You went, you crossed this line from previously you saw kink in the way that it's presented in a lot of mainstream vanilla culture, like this one specific thing maybe stigmatized and then all of a sudden you and your partner are exploring it. Like you've said, "Oh yes to this thing." Were you nervous? Were you confused? Like what were you feeling at that time? - My only nerves about it would at the time was that she would change her mind back out. Because I hit the ground running and had found like I found a pursuit that I truly resonated with. The physicality of things, the inherent intimacy in most kink related activities. And honestly, just the pure carnal or purian interest of kink pursuits really appealed to me. Very emotionally raw and uncomplicated, which I appreciated to it. I struggle with the pageantry of people pretending and the manipulations of emotions and things that can happen. I struggle with the connect with people on that level. But there's such a purity to things like subspace and power dynamics and things like that. These are roles and activities that people engage with. In kink, there's a purity to it that is simple to understand. And I believe it's much closer to the base of what we are as an animal. So it was easier for me to connect with people on that level. So, and it's funny I mentioned that because my biggest nerves were that she would back out and that possible avenue to connecting with her would go away. And as time has proven for me, right? - She backed out. - Yeah, eventually, ultimately. It ended up just kind of trailing off, which a lot of things do when people take up hobbies or whatever and they just lose interest and they share a lot. But I continued and forged forward and have made a myriad of discoveries long since we separated and continue to learn more and more about, primarily about myself. And that's, I think, that's where I think the real power lie in that, yes, you can gain a better understanding of other people, but you do so through the lens of yourself and what you've learned about you. And I've never experienced a greater teacher than a lot of the king spaces that I've been involved in and my own journey into those spaces, which is also a whole different saga, yeah. - You were talking about sub-spaces being a different kind of space being more raw. It makes me think of there's a video that I made for one of my partners. We had just been having a king exchange. They left and I made a little video that was not at all performative in the way that a lot of my porn work is. It was just like, I was still in that raw sub-space and I look at it now and it's hard for me to realize it's not my performative self, even when I am being most authentic, it's sub-spaces something different. It takes us into something, a raw, just animalistic space. - Well, it is almost impossible to completely abandon that pretense. People are always being performative, always, all the time, constantly. I would say that it's in our nature to do so, but there is very little, in my opinion anyway, pure mind, not a professional psychiatrist or psychologist. So this is all supposition based on my observations, but I think there are very, very few ways in which people are purely and authentically themselves and that almost everything else that we do on a daily basis is programs and coded. And one of the ways that you can kind of crack that facade and get into that softer center, that you part is through the inherent vulnerability in most kink activities and communities. You will not benefit to the degree that you could unless you kind of allow yourself to be vulnerable in those spaces. Because you're defeating the entire purpose. The purpose is to be vulnerable. The purpose is to do the thing that makes you nervous or scared, but at the same time, you love that cold sweat. And you're like, I need to know what's on the other side of this barrier. And you do it and you find like-minded people who wanna do it with you and you learn about enthusiastic consent and you start to demand that being a life in arenas outside of kink. The lessons that you learn about just being a good and decent person too are invaluable. Not to say that there aren't plenty of bad stories and people who have bad experiences in kink and BDSM. Certainly, there's lots of them. But as an overarching umbrella, I think it's a pretty, generally a pretty safe place to be. - Yeah, I completely agree with what you're talking about about the enthusiastic consent that when you're in those conversations about what's going to happen before a scene and you're continually talking about what do I actually want? Even if it's taboo, even if it's scary to say, even perhaps like you were saying, even especially if it's scary. Because that is the source of intimacy and the vulnerability is the power. And yeah, then you can say, oh hell yes, I want this relationship. Or hell yes, I want this job. All those other enthusiastic consents in your life. - And maybe even more important into that, you can say, hell no, I don't want that. Which is a type of empowerment. Most people don't allow themselves because saying no is almost a prohibited thing. And it's one of those ways that we can begin to heal ourselves through engaging with kink community and kink spaces is that in those conversations about consent, in those negotiations about boundaries and expressing safe words and all the things that we do, you're building a framework inside the way that you think about life that absolutely bleeds out into the next time you have an interaction with a person who you've always had disagreements with or whatever, where you're able to say, you know what I'm gonna try a thing that I did last night right before I had a dildo in my ass. This isn't gonna be nearly as much fun, but no, I don't like that, stop doing that. I'm not going to allow that in my space. And then you wait, paralyzed, what's gonna happen now? The big fear of the consequences of saying no. I'm 99 times out of 100, nothing happens. And they're just like fine. And then you realize, oh my God, I'm alive. And I said no, and I'm not doing the thing that I didn't want to do. And I didn't make that sacrifice. And that kernel grows and your power grows. And you start to realize I can speak up for myself. So people who come from backgrounds, like a lot of folks do, of being spoken for or not being able to set their own rules, whether that's familiar or relationships or whatever. Anybody who is in a kink space that is doing so in a healthy way, in a communicative and loving way, is going to insist that you talk about your boundaries with them, almost like an unwitting mentor. They're telling you, no, I need consent from you and I need to know that you know what that means. So let's talk about it. And you start getting practice and talking about your limits and your boundaries. And boundary setting is, it's like coming to me. - It's so empowering, yes. When you start realizing that you can do that in other aspects of your life, I love that, that you remember, oh, I'm still alive. Perhaps I'm even more alive than I was before, because now I'm choosing my life, rather than being drawn along by other people. I'm wondering if you can take us into some of your specific experiences with kink today, because like you were talking about, kink is this huge umbrella. So what are you particularly drawn to? Why, how does that relate to your emotional developments and what it means for you? - So it's kind of odd, actually, that we would be having this particular conversation about this particular subject. 'Cause as it turned out, over the course of many, many years of exploration and playing around, I ended up being pretty vanilla. - Yeah. - But not for lack of, yes, I wanna try that. Yes, I wanna try that. Yes, I wanna try that, but my introductions, a lot of folks, tremendously socially anxious person, if there's gonna be more than 10 people there, I'm gonna cry, I don't know. I don't have, try to come up with some excuse, not to go, and so the very first lesson that kink taught me was to push that boundary, to try to push against this idea that being around other people is scary, because those are the people who may judge you. You might not fit in, you might not be as cool, you might not be as pretty, you might not be as in shape, you might not be all of these things, these limiters that are programmed into us so that we believe that they matter when they've been irrelevant all along, but we're so inured to believe that this is important. And it taught me to challenge those things and just to go. And I think what is important to remember about saying yes to things and having these new experiences like I did in the beginning, there were lots of things that I tried, things with like golden shower stuff and a lot of pain, like tatomasochism, stuff like that. Turns out, not in my bag, but taking the chance to do them and try them and learn that is a growth experience all in and of itself. You're re-programmed and re-wiring your brain to desire new experiences, to know before you think you know. Somebody, it's easy to say, oh, no, no thanks, I don't want you to pee on my face. It's easy to say that and then somebody does and you're like, yep, I was right, I don't like when people pee on my face or you realize, okay, that was actually pretty awesome, but you can't know until you have some of these experiences. This is not to say that people's boundaries are their limits rather, are not valid. They absolutely are and are respected 150%. But every once in a while, it's important to pull that file out of the roll of decks and look at your limits and say, do I have these? Why do I have these? What is the reasons and should I challenge any of these today? And that's what I ended up doing. So in the beginning, I was very closeted in my sexual desire for masculine-appearing folks. And these king spaces allowed me the liberty to be able to explore that with kind of, with an anonymity, I suppose, as part of it, but also with the support of other people around me who were totally like, yeah, you should do that, you should try that, who would also play those kinds of things with me. - Uh-huh, uh-huh. - And-- - These were like, king dungeons or sex clothes. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Most of the beginning activity for myself and my wife at the time started off with, I can't remember the name, there was a spot on Foster Road. - Here in Portland. - Yeah. That was owned by somebody that we met through Fat Life, which Fat Life profiles by the way happened instantly, that owned it, that was a dominatrix. And so all of it really happened in these kinds of clubs, munchies, or gatherings at other people's houses, settings, where we were kind of the odd people out. I struggled a lot with it in the beginning because there are other, there are factors that end up playing a role that shouldn't but do. At the time, it's just another dude. And at least that's how it felt. It's just another dude in the room. - Just before you came out. - Yeah, they're like, they're everywhere, I'm looking around, I'm just gonna see a dude's. And so what happens a lot in the beginning, especially in like Polly and then, and Polly by the way, in my opinion, anyway, is king. It's a non, it's an unconventional, anything unconventional that helps you expand and broaden yourself is king. So we separate ourselves from the 50 Shades definition of what that is and understand that it's this beautiful amorphous fog of wonderful things that encompasses all of these different challenges to your preconceived notions and embracing what you love. And when we go to these spaces and my ex is extremely attractive cis woman and would garner enormous amounts of attention. And so that was hard in the beginning. Just try to set myself up as my own person, as my own entity in the room, separate from that but together at the same time, it's a difficult balance. - And somehow you pushed yourself through that? - Yeah. - Because you were choosing to, not because someone was pushing you to do that, which would have been a violation of your boundaries, but you wanted to explore that new thing in your life. - And I pushed myself to get past them and there's always going to be an element to peer pressure involved in pushing yourself. But the peer pressure is indirect, it's passive, it's because you're watching other people enjoy the shit of themselves. And you're like, why am I not that? What's stopping me from doing that? Where is this self-judgment and the self-hate coming from that I'm holding myself back and saying, because we do so much more than that, we do so much more than have this negative interview of ourselves, but we then push that outwards and make assumptions about how other people are going to look at us too. And it's so destructive. And King in my experience has taught me to stop doing that. There's so much general body positivity and sex positivity and inclusivity in a lot of these King communities that teach you to overcome that boundary within yourself, to just stop and get in the pool. It's okay. - You don't have to wait until you've finished your diet or whatever it is that you're beating yourself up for to get naked and enjoy the hot tub. - Right, and you also don't have to wait for people to shoot flares into the air to alert you that it's okay. The attitude of the environment is telling you, this is acceptable. You already clarified it. Whatever it is that you want to do is okay to do. And then the hard part comes, you have to do it. And for me and the infancy of that in the beginning, that was the hardest part. I knew all this stuff already. I knew it was true. I knew I was the only force holding myself back from doing these things that I really wanted to try. And then you just do. Once we're the baby step, stick your toe in the water and it gets easier and easier and easier. And pretty soon, for the most people that I've known anyway, it becomes a runaway train. And all of a sudden they're seeking that kind of thing, that kind of personal validation from the entire world at large and not just in dimly lit places with, I'm saying, just cross those rules. So, and that's what it did for me. It gave slowly but surely built confidence that I was okay as I was in that moment and I was accepted as I was in that moment to where when I left those spaces and I would go like sit on the bus, I still felt it. I wasn't there anymore. I was here, but I still felt it, that aura, that radiant that comes off of you. Like, and maybe it wears off after the run. And then you go back. And the next time it takes a little longer to wear off. And pretty soon it just becomes a thing that is part of you. - Rewiring a brain. - Yeah, absolutely. One little thing at a time. I've always maintained that like negative self talk and all those things that we do, those are habits. They're maladaptive defense mechanisms. Somehow our lizard brain is telling us that that keeps you safe. Well, you cannot, it is impossible to quit about habit. You can't do it. All you can do is replace a bad habit with a bad one. Your brain of horrors of acumen needs to fill that space. So slowly one little bit of time, you start taking one piece away and putting this new, better, warmer kinder you in its place. And pretty soon, you've got a new habit. - I love the idea that you are giving yourself permission to do it. Who told me that I could come to a club and have someone pee on my face? Nobody. - Right. - But I chose that that's what I wanted to do. - You know who told me the invitation that said, "Come to this club and have somebody pee on your face." That's who told me. Then you walk in the door and it's right there. It's on a big sign. This way to get your face peeed on. And you're still questioning whether it's okay for you to be there and have somebody pee on your face. Yes, absolutely. See, it's right there. It's all that up. Permission has been given. Now you just have to allow yourself to do it. And I think there's a lot of different experiences and traumas that people have coming into their first interaction with kink spaces that are all rooted in a lot of the same kinds of stimuli. Things like emotionally abusive situations or neglect or things like that inform us that we're not good enough. That we're not attractive enough, we're not fit enough. Just our entire culture is built around the idea of you are not enough. That's the engine that drives capitalism. It always has been. And so... - You have to hustle for awareness. - Absolutely. And if you're not producing, you have no value. And that's absolute horseshit. And it's always been horseshit. And they know it's horseshit. And it's a tissue thin veneer that holds it all together. Because it does not take very much to poke a hole through them and go, "Wait a minute, this is horseshit." And so that's where I've made problem in my most valuable discoveries. And kink was the catalyst for that. Because these spaces where people who are challenging all of that and they were having a fucking blast doing it. They weren't wringing their hands and all nervous about what will people think? What if I challenge the social norms? The lightning rolls from the sky. They were just having a good time. And maybe they went home and immediately before they even got to the car, all the buckles and belts came off. And they were back in their pants suits. And they were back to pretending the next day, they were cropping in the morning. But they weren't the same. - Right. - They might have been pretending. But they knew they were fucking pretending. - And it's at play. You were talking about like capitalism tells us we have to produce. There's nothing productive about kink. It's play. It's like the adult version of kindergarten. It's, yeah. There was something that you were sharing with me earlier that really stuck with me. And I want to share with you listeners because, ooh, this phrase has been in my mind since Hannah and I were talking about this podcast, which is empowerment is addicting. And I love this because I know that our minds are wired for addiction, that we on a biological level want to hang onto things. And so why not harness that for good? And I think about that in my journey with porn, the first time I stepped into it, I was like, I definitely should not be doing this. This is terrifying. I did it. And then I was like, oh, that was really fun. And then I did a force of, ooh, that was fun. And then I went and performed with other companies and then started doing my own content and then started organizing big group shoots with queer folks and then left my day job. And then, you know, like it just becomes more and more of this realization. Oh, I mean, I guess I could do this. Nobody told me I could, but it feels like I'll just let myself do this. So yes, the empowerment becomes delicious. So I wanted to hear more about that. So how has this shown up in your life? You mentioned polyamory and different forms of sexuality. And then how is Kink kind of starting this addiction for you? - Well, the empowerment addiction thing is, you know, our brains are simple, simple wheel machines. And everything that we do is to feel safe. Whether even people who hate, they hate because something rewards their little lizard brain and says, okay, you're safe now. You're safe if you go on the offensive. And so we're always looking to feel that sense of safety. And empowerment is indicative because all you're doing is telling that little asshole part of your brain. This is way more fun and you're safe and you're enjoying yourself. So you slowly with that little reprogramming start to say, oh, there's no danger here. And then your brain says, okay, well, then you can do this and you can feel great doing it. And I'm not going to give you all of the anxiety and bullshit that goes with it to make you stop because it's unsafe because it's safe now. You've convinced me, basically. And that was, it's just brain chemistry. And so you're slowly training that danger sensor that you're not in danger. And the more you do that, the more you fill up that vessel with that feeling, why would you? Why would you turn back ever to hiding and self-loathing and all of that? 'Cause it doesn't feel good. So now you're getting the endorphin release and all of these wonderful brain chemicals that also go along with feeling safe. And you're having a lot of fun doing it and you're establishing rock solid boundaries. So you never fall into the same traps that you used to. It's addicting because the rewards are absolutely assure anybody listening to this or anybody who comes to these conclusions on their own. The rewards are one million times worth the discomfort of pushing through those initial boundaries. For me, it was the most important thing for me to abandon was shame. Shame is one of the greatest motivators in the world for keeping people in whatever place that they're in. And once you step around shame and you start looking on the other side of it, the colors and the light and the beauty and the warmth. It's right on the other side of that shame. And shame is ultimately just fear of everything else. And so taking little bites out of that, but it's really important to note that everybody's journey is different. We were talking about this earlier. Everybody's starting from a different square one. I've always been a very cabin leader, individual. Very forward and out and open and socially anxious, yes, but completely uncompromising. And so it was very easy for me, probably due to my upbringing, partly due to being not a physically small person, it's easy for me. And that is a factor, believe me. It's easier for me to walk around, just bumping into shit with my shoulders, right? But I still had shame, deep seated, carried it with me that I had to get around. And most of that came from the gender journey, which is thankfully, I mean, no longer, for me anyway, no longer work in progress, I've arrived. And that feeling that something wasn't quite right. And then as soon as I saw other people, and this is where King Space has gave me, a gift that is priceless as far as transforming who I am, going into King Space and seeing other people with the infinite spectrum of gender presentation and representation that exists in the world, that is just on the other side of that red felted door or whatever. And they were there and they were bold, and they were themselves, and they were unashamed, and they were uncompromising in it. And I liken it to, I don't know, did you see The Matrix in the theater? Everybody that went and saw The Matrix in the theater came out of that movie and felt like they could do the Trinity float, and they were hoping that there were ninjas everywhere, that they could be like, ah, and just fight. You can't, obviously, float in the air and do Kung Fu kicks, but the feeling is the same. That I came out of those a little bit closer to that every time, until it was just like, all right, well, now I have a name, I have an identity, I have a path, I have a path that has been forged by people far braver than I, that came before me. I'm taking this bomb right with it. And so, yeah, it taught me that for myself, anyway, the way to go about making these declarations in your life was like a cannonball. Just do it, and be that. And then if be that changes, to be something else tomorrow, so be it, that you're prerogative, you're gonna do what you want. Sorry. (laughs) - I love that. So there are two things in particular that I was triggered by, or inspired by in what you were talking about. One was this idea that part of the process of empowerment is doing the scary thing, and then realizing, okay, I'm safe in this. It makes me think of the analogy of stretching. So I do a lot of yoga and whatever, and that when you're learning to do the splits, you're not actually changing the tissue of the body. So much as teaching your brain signals, that you'll be okay when you move your life from the heart. - Right, I didn't know that. That's really interesting. - Yeah, it's, yeah, and so you're describing this on the emotional level, that you're pushing yourself, and then despite the fact that we are wired for connection, that we will still be socially accepted, still be socially safe when we do these scary things. So that feels like a really powerful reminder to keep learning through kink or through boundary pushing, or in other parts of your life that you're safe. And then the other thing, you were talking about this connection between kink and your gender journey. That was really significant to me, 'cause I think about some people who are kind of derisive of kink will say, people are there because they have been assaulted, because they've been through trauma, and they're only there to deal with that. Which, when that is true, I actually think that's a really beautiful thing, but it's not the exclusive reason. But then we can also extend it to like, yes big T sexual assault kind of traumas, but also the little T traumas of dealing with life in a society that is unequal and unfree. And so you're describing that was connected to your gender journey. - Right. - Can you tell us like, was there ever a time in Kingburg explicitly playing with it, or the fact that you were just seeing other people who were genderqueer in those spaces? - Right, I feel like that for myself, and I can pretty confidently extrapolate that out to a lot of other people, probably with the same experience. Being the age that I am and growing up in the era that I did, there was no representation of this in my life. So you feel a thing, you know it to be true, but you can't do anything with it until you can name it. And so it's just this kind of amorphous feeling that you have. You can't quite reach out and grab. I feel different, I feel weird, I feel strange, I feel like I don't fit in this space I'm trying to cram myself into. And I was angry all the time because of the, trying to be a dude bro, because that's what I was supposed to be. - That's why you were socialized. - Yeah, right, exactly, you wear blue, you get toy guns, and, but there were signs. There were signs, and having a discussion with my parents looking back, and it's like, you know, there were definitely plenty of signs, and something wasn't quite stirring the kool-aid as far as, as far as other boy. And then, but what King Spaces did for me was provided me with the information that I needed, the exposure that I needed, to understand what I was feeling, what I already knew, but couldn't verbalize, including verbalizing to myself. And then, on top of that, empowering that idea, turbocharging it, because these weren't people who were sculking in shadows. These weren't people who were hiding under eaves in the rain. This was, people were out there, and you would ask them about themselves, and they would tell you with pride about their gender identities, and their relationship models that they lived with, and all of these things were a total enigma, to somebody who kind of grew up in the spaces that I did. You're like, what, Polly? Isn't that just cheating? Come on, and like, where you do, you have to have these things explained to you, in a way that your own light bulb comes on. And King did that for me. Those spaces and those wonderful, incredible people that were willing and embracing to take this wide-eyed dukes up, don't touch my butthole kid, walk in the door, you know, with all these preconceived notions about it, and to say, all right, okay, come on, how's it? Here's your Shirley Temple, let's talk about it. And I will be eternally grateful for that. So more so than traditional models of like therapy, where we would sit down and talk through things, what King provides for myself, and I believe a lot of other people, is an active, kinetic form of that kind of therapy. - When you're outside language. - Right, where it's more than just processing how it feels, it's challenging how it feels. It's challenging it physically, it's being in that space, it's being in the space where you're surrounded by the thing you fear, and realizing that the ice cold you feel in the beginning gets warmer and warmer by the second, and you're going to be okay. And there's 20 other people in this room who know what you've been through, who've been there, who have walked this road, and even though everybody's road is a little bit different, the destination is pretty similar, and they can tell you to, been there, and I've been all the points along to right here, and I'm telling you, you're gonna be okay. And that kind of support is not just intrinsic to the King community. And it is, but it's also necessary for that particular community to thrive because of the vulnerability of people who are in it. You know, your intramural softball team or whatever, doesn't have quite the same cohesion, there's no necessity for that kind of faith and trust in each other, which is healing all by itself, just to be steeped in that, is healing. And I have seen it work, and I have used the idea of King, an introduction to King spaces to help friends and to help family members heal from trauma, overcome body issues, like body image issues, overcome things that they were struggling with their self-confidence, their gender expressions, their own sexuality, and just kind of coach them in this general direction, like, I want to show you something, and I want to see what you think. And universally, to the one, they've all just been like, amazing. Culture loves to paint still to this day, which I have no idea why it's still a thing. The King community is this dirty, kind of underground thing that people are ashamed of, they hide in basements, I mean, they call them dungeons, after all. And I can guarantee you that one or two things that's happening, either one of those people have never been in King spaces, or they're in King spaces all the time and they're compelled to lie about it, 'cause they have to pretend, which is unfortunate. But I found that it would be nothing but war on inviting. - Yeah, I really relate to what you're talking about, that community and connection, and that almost transformative moment, I think, for example, about when I am fully tied up. So all of my limbs are tied, even some suspensions, where I am now completely at the whim of whoever this person is, and sometimes it's someone I just met, but even without talking, without sharing details about our background, because of the trust involved in that moment, there's an intimacy, there's a connection that's formed there. - Right, if it was just randomly happening in the woods, you'd be terrified. - Absolutely, yes. - If it was just somebody you didn't know like the outside of those spaces, that would not be something that you would do. But there's something to be said for the fact that there's a level of accountability and trust and disclosure and consent and all of that that happens in order to make healthy King spaces operate, that you know that that exists. It's a huge part of convincing that shiggy little part of your brain that tells you everything is scary, that it's not, wait a minute, no, there's this room's full of people, everybody's watching what's going on, everybody's paying attention. If they catch wind, the consent wasn't given 100%, they're like, hey, consent, they're on it. And that helped me a lot in the beginning. Especially, there was the hyper-protective part of myself when I was still married, and we were going into these King spaces, it was difficult for me to, with all of the kind of semi-dangerous activities and rope and restraints and all of these things. And that protective sort of vibe came out, and I had to relax that and realizing you've been to myself for the same thing, like it's okay, you know, she'd go off by herself and do her own thing, and have fun, and she's gonna be fine, right? Look at the space, look at the people, this is not. So again, it's important to note the caveat that it does happen. - Which community is and what the values are matters? - Right, but I believe that it to be comparatively rare. And I think that some negative experiences with elements of King that aren't within that community, that it's worthwhile to maneuver back in, around vet people if you need to protect yourself always, and understand that this takes time. If the first 20 times you go to a munch, or you go to a dungeon, you only make it to the front door, and you turn around 'cause you're just too scared you don't wanna go in. Awesome, pat yourself on the back. You won that day, it's a little victory. You got already the door, it's amazing. And the next time maybe you'll go through the door and you'll stand in the vestibule and you'll watch people, and then maybe next time you'll get 10 feet in the door. But my experience with it, I think it's similar to a lot of other people's. You will hit an exponential curve, you'll find this spot, you'll tip this scale, you'll convince your brain you're not in any danger. And the 107th time you go, right you'll be wall-to-floor latex. It really is so explosively liberating that I would encourage well, anybody to explore it to whatever level they're ultimately being comfortable exploring it, but. - I love that changing the self-talk where you can go as slow as you want. And again, what you're describing, it feels like every piece of it becomes a lesson for other parts of your life. While you're preparing to go talk to a family member you've never talked to before and you have a difficult conversation, maybe you're making that phone call for the first time and you just say hello, like you're taking a little piece by piece in the same way that you're allowing yourself to slowly explore kink, you're allowing yourself to slowly do scary things in other aspects of your life where you've practiced a more kind self-talk. - Right, because you can bristle at external things that come in, you can set that bulwark and hold your line. We're still maintaining internal softness, that's the whole trick. That's where the real empowerment comes from. I'm giving myself a great big hug in here and I got 47 middle fingers pointed out in different directions. And so the ability to be able to walk through your life, not with blindness to, there are hazards in the world. They're there, prudence is necessary. But to be able to take up the space that you get, which is as much as you need, to be able to breathe and laugh and be you and be authentic and be out amongst the people doing these things ended up becoming something now that I just expect. I expect it when I walk out my door and I'm surprised when it doesn't happen. Surprised but not shaken. That's one of the things that really helped me get past. And this is also, again, due to some of the inroads. I mean, you have to have conversations with yourself. You have to open up to the learning experience of King, not just the physical experience of it. You have to ask yourself hard questions and have those conversations and go for walks by yourself and think and dig in to those parts of you that are feeling that doubt, feeling that fear. And through those explorations for me, anyway, is what kind of led to me being able to walk around with the confidence that I have now and this sort of almost bulletproof exterior. Because what I realized is that it's the, it's the ministry of absurdity. Is that other people, which is really generally what we're mostly afraid of, judgment and opinions or, you know, people not wanting to be around us anymore, like family or friends if we're authentic with ourselves. Other people's reasons for that are absurd. They just are. And once you start seeing them as absurd, it becomes more and more like laughable. You look at the reasons you want to have compassion for them because they're close to you, but absurd things, you can dismiss them as absurd. They become a thing that you can now hold and say, "You're adorable, but get the fuck out of you." And that really helped me to not be, to the point now where I walk around and walk through public settings and I don't even notice the look, so the harsh words or whatever, anything somebody says to me. Because I understand that it's based in their fear. And the only explorations is myself. I realize something in their little lizard brain is telling them that by making fun of me, they're protecting themselves. Because there's something within themselves that they need to hide from other people. And if they say, "Ah, you're a fag," or whatever, and they call you a terrible name, then they can protect that part of themselves. And I give them a little bit of a way for that, honestly. I'm like, "I get it, you're afraid." It means nothing to me, that you think these things about me, but I really hope that someday I can talk to you into going into a king's space and getting over that. - I love that. Healing turns and homophobia through king. - Yeah, yeah, couple of parties at the boss and all of you'll be cured. - Yep, yep. So I like to end every episode with a love note to folks. And one of the things that you said that was really powerful to me was, you're talking about kink, but you often use the phrase kink spaces and talking about community and how the people within that help to keep each other safe. So when you're in a kink relationship, being connected to a community, whether that's in person in kink spaces, physically or online or whatever it is that helps you not be alone in it, can help to make it a really positive empowering experience. But in general, one of the things that I just really take away is when you were saying take up space, it's like you're walking out, you've got chest up, you've got your chin up, like you are embodying something different in the way that you're describing this power. And so as people are beginning to come into it, especially if they are socially anxious or nervous or have heard stories, and maybe like they're experiencing their bodies differently, maybe the shoulders hunched, heart pounding, 'cause I think it always goes back to things that we're experiencing in our body are connected to our emotions. So how in that very closed body space, how do you bring yourself into it? How do you begin that self-actualization process or even stepping into kink? - I mean, like any other skill, which I believe in empowerment is a skill that you learn, self-confidence is a skill that you learn. You practice it by starting with little things, but it's more than just starting with baby steps or whatever term people use. The most important part is not about how much you accomplish. It's what you say to yourself about how much you've accomplished. Instead of condemnation that you're not able to look in a mirror and convince yourself that you're perfect just the way you are today, you notice some small thing? I fucking nailed my hair today. And you give yourself credit. And for those small victories, life in general is all just an accumulation of little victories. The big ones are rare. The little ones, like we were talking about trauma, big tea and little tea trauma. Little tea trauma is way more common for people to have experienced little tea trauma that slow burn over time. No quitting bad habits. You have to replace it with something else. So instead of this slow burn, self-destruction, you start replacing with one thing a day that you tell yourself you did great. You got out, brush your teeth, good for you. That's a hygiene. You win, right? And saying that and then being, you are and will always be the love of your life. You are your own soulmates. It's the big hallmark lie. It doesn't exist out there. It's always been in you. We were split into the big joke was that we were actually back together. It's just a wall. You've always been your own soulmate. So why on earth do people talk to themselves the way that they do? You're your best friend on earth, you. And remember that. Remember that when you're cursing yourself. And what am I gaining by doing this? And give yourself that one little piece. I had to do the same thing. I didn't launch out of a cannon. Super confident and impervious to most things. It was little stuff. And I still fall into that even now. Forgiving and complimenting and patting yourself on the back and hugging yourself, touching your body with appreciation and celebration, taking the time to rest, taking the time to do the things that are just for you. Never listening to anybody who tells you that the thing that you love is a waste of time 'cause that's a bullshit capitalist lie anyway. And there is no prescription, something else that you will see replete in the King community. There is no prescription on the proper way to be, the proper way to live. Just do you. And but those little victories are the most important part. Something small, it will become habitual again to you. Just this morning, in fact, the compliment I gave myself was that I got my coffee to creamer mixture precisely flawless. Just one step of it. I was like, this is, I just, it was a celebration of coffee and creamer. And I took the time to recognize this was a cool moment. - Good job, Hannah. - Yeah, yeah. This bump it, right? So those little things, that's where the journey starts. And those little things turn into medium things, turn into bigger things. And pretty soon, you're unashamed. And you just express. It's not always a cake walk, expressing is a minefield. But you've learned to dance, dance amongst them, you know, and stay you. Yeah. - Listeners, I hope that you can find, can you find five things to thank yourself for today, to praise yourself for today? I can think of one. If you have made it through this conversation, that means you have supported us, you have taken time for yourself to maybe explore a new topic or take deeper or connect with folks. So there's one for you already. Take another deep breath. And there's a second one, 'cause you're taking care of your body by giving yourself oxygen, go you. We're doing great over here. And I hope that if you are looking to get into kink, you feel empowered to begin exploring that. And to advocate for yourself both in kink and in the world outside of kink that you can continue practicing those enthusiastic consent. And especially those hell knows that you're gonna be okay. You're gonna be safe when you do it. It's gonna feel exciting as you grow in that. Hannah, thank you so much for sharing your perspectives and wisdom. And listeners, thanks for being with us today. This has been another edition of A Sluts Guide to Happiness with your host Vanessa Cliff and our guest today. Hannah, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, including on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and the Cliff Media website, VanessaCliff.com. Please help us out by liking and sharing this podcast and stay tuned for more deep dives into beautiful messy waters. If you're over the age of 18, you can find our video content, including some of the stuff this one's done on our website, VanessaCliff.com. Bang, bangs and big picture. Rawr. And most of all, I invite you to join us in the pleasure of being awkwardly human, naked, and without pretense. Let's get free. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (gentle music)
