What is reverse searing, is my avocado ready, is the meat cooked through? Jack Bishop, Chief Creative Officer for America’s Test Kitchen answers these and give more cooking tips. Jacqueline Coleman talks about Susana Balbo wines and their 25th anniversary wines. Tune into Food News and Views on all major podcast sites.
Food, News & Views with Linda Gassenheimer
Food, News & Views, Ep 237: Jack Bishop, Susana Balbo Wines, Jacqueline Coleman
(upbeat music) Do you know if your avocado is ready? Or how do you make sure your pork chop will be nice and juicy and not dry and cardboard? And what is reverse searing? Our guest today has these answers and much more. He's Jack Bishop and he's the Chief Creative Officer for America's Test Kitchen. And their book is The New Essentials Cookbook. The New Essentials Cookbook, a modern guide to better cooking. So welcome Jack Bishop. - Hello Linda, how are you today? - Great, well great, thank you for joining us. He's joining us from the Test Kitchen's in Boston. And we're so anxious Jack to hear all about all of this new information you have for us. First, congratulations, this is an amazing book. It's really a cooking bible. It's huge and there's so much in it. Even for season cooks, I mean, you know, I'm a train chef but I learned a lot from your book. First, why don't you explain to us what is America's Test Kitchen? - Sure, we are a group of passionate home cooks, many of us professionally trained who are dedicated to encouraging, inspiring and educating people about how they can be successful in their own home kitchens. They're about 50 people working in the test kitchen, developing recipes, testing products, creating our magazines, cooks illustrated in cooks country and our television shows that have run on public television, America's Test Kitchen and Cooks Country. - So you take a recipe let's say and you make it several different ways and then you decide which is the best one and then you let us know, is that what it's all about? - Yes, I mean, but it's a long process, so on average we will develop a recipe over the course of a month and probably make it 40 to 50 times. - Wow. - What we're doing is assessing all the different ingredient choices that you have. If it's a recipe that goes in the oven, trying different oven temperatures. During the process we send the recipe out to we have 30,000 volunteer home cooks who will make a recipe during the development process and use an online survey to provide us feedback. So it's not just the people in the test kitchen deciding we like this recipe. We're constantly engaging home cooks to tell us how's this recipe working for you? Do you have any feedback, any questions? - Wow. - To explain maybe by step-by-step photography substitutions that you'd like us to try. So it's a very much back and forth between our fans and audience and the people in test kitchen. - Wow, well this is amazing to learn how you do this to find out the best best way to make any kind of recipe that you're working on. So let's go up to the first example I gave you because I learned from this, how do avocados ripen? I usually sort of squeeze it to see if it's right. But you tell me that's not correct, is that right? - It's not the most precise way. - That's a nice way of putting it, thank you, Jack. - Well, listen, if the avocado is rock hard, that's probably not a good sign. But you can actually lift up the little brown piece that's on the stem end and look at the color of the flesh underneath. And that will actually do a pretty good job of giving you an indication about ripeness. And so I should say that your avocado belongs on the counter until it's ripe. So once it's ripe, you can put it in the refrigerator. But if you store your avocados in the fridge, they won't actually ripen properly. And so if you see, when you lift up that little tab-- - The little brown piece of the stem end, right, yeah. - And that it looks green underneath, then that's a good sign that the avocado is ripe and that if you're having trouble getting that piece off or the brown underneath, the avocado is not at its prime and you should continue to let it hang out on the counter until you see that that color changes. - Okay, well, that's great. So let's go on to this other point that I learned about as well, it's called reverse searing. So what did you mean by that? - So typically, if you're searing a steak or a pork chop, you are what I would call doing regular searing. You heat up your skillet, you get the pan nice and hot, you put the piece of food in the pan, and you sear it until it's brown on the outside. And what happens is that if you're thinking about a thick steak or a thick chop, that you get fairly uneven cooking and that the portion that is in contact with the pan, not just the exterior, but the layer underneath it, cooks much faster because heat travels from the outside in. And so while you're waiting for the center of the steak to get to be medium rare, for instance, you've in effect overcooked all of the outer layers of meat. And so when you slice into that steak, there's kind of a gray band around the exterior, underneath that browned crust. And at the center, maybe, pink, but half of the steak as well is properly cooked and half of it's overcooked. - So, excuse me, the difficult part is the pork chops 'cause they've taken so much fat out of the pork these days that it's dry inside. - It's very dry, and so even if you're using a thermometer, people think, oh, I need to cook the steak to 125 degrees, but the reality of the center may be 125, which would be medium rare, but the outer portion, the outer half inch of a one inch steak is probably 150 degrees, 160 degrees, basically well done because the heat is traveling from the exterior to the interior. So reverse searing says, we're going to put those chops to those steaks on a rack set inside a baking sheet and put them in a low temperature oven, maybe 250, 275. So rather than a blast of heat, it's very gentle and so you get very even cooking. - So you put it on the rack so air can circulate around it? Is that-- - That's correct. - Or the fat can drip off or? - More for the air circulation. So if you put them directly on the baking sheet, the sheet which is metal will conduct heat and the bottom portion of the steak or chop will cook faster than the top. So when it's on a rack, air is circulating and you're getting even cooking top and bottom side to side. So you're thinking, okay, I put a pork chop in the oven at 275 degrees, but it's never going to get brown. And this is where the reverse searing comes in. You when the chop or steak is basically almost up to temperature. So if you're trying to get the chops to 145, for instance, once they reach about 130 or 135, you then heat the skillet and very quickly brown the exterior. It will happen in two minutes. So you get that nice crust, but you have not got overcooked meat right underneath it. You have perfect cup-- - So could you do this in, I don't suppose you could do this in advance because then the center wouldn't be warm. I mean, let's say you're having people for dinner or something and you cook it like at four or five o'clock in the afternoon and then you keep it at room temperature and then you just sear it. That's not how you would use reverse searing. - Yeah, no, that's not going to work. I mean, if you really want to do that, advance cooking, you should be using sous vide, but that's a whole other conversation. - That's a whole other conversation. But what this allows you to do, and the reason why it browns so quickly is because what you're doing is drawing out the exterior. There's a lot of moisture in a steak or chop on the exterior, which is slowing down the browning. And so after that steak spends half an hour in at 275 degree oven, getting up to 120 degrees, the exterior is dried out so that it will brown really quickly. And so you're really reducing the amount of time that that piece of meat is in a super hot pan where there's very uneven cooking. And you end up, when you do this reverse searing, with a beautiful crust, lovely golden brown, dark brown. And when you slice into the steak, it is the same color from top to bottom, from side to side. And if you cook it-- - I think you're making us all hungry to go quickly get some steak and cook it up. - Yeah, but it's a really, really good way to cook a steak, to cook a pork chop. - You know, to cook a lamb chop. - Would you do a chicken breast that way? - You can do a chicken breast that way. - All right. - Obviously, you're cooking a chicken breast in the oven to a higher internal temperature, probably getting that up closer to 145 or 150 before you put it in the skillet with the goal that you want to final temperature of about 160. - Right. - But that's, it's a great way to cook proteins. - Wonderful. - Well, I was interested in your section called the anatomy of your refrigerator. And what, how to store foods in the refrigerator? Because, I mean, most of us, I think, well, I do, I come home from the supermarket and I just throw everything in the refrigerator that needs to go in, and I don't consider what shelf it goes on. - Yeah, what you may not realize is that there are different temperature and humidity zones in your refrigerator, and that certain foods will do better in different parts of your refrigerator. So for instance, the door is probably in the low 40s as opposed to the back of the middle shelf or the back of the top shelf, which really should be closer to 32, 33, 34, right above freezing. And so while that door may be perfect for your sodas, butter, for instance, which really will stay fresher at a colder temperature, would be better off on the shelf in the back. Same thing with milk. You know, milk, the colder it is barring, of course, freezing, but if it's at 34 degrees, for instance, milk will stay fresher longer than if it's at 44 degrees. And so the door of your refrigerator is a warm spot. It's fine for condiments, sodas, but not the best place for dairy. - So there are certain things that, you know, I've always been told, never put a tomato in the refrigerator, never put bananas in the refrigerator. What's your take on that? - So you've controlled some good advice. The refrigerator is not kind to certain foods. So there are really two issues that you're concerned about. One is that with certain fruits and vegetables, things don't ripen at cold temperatures. And so bananas, for instance, will not ripen in the refrigerator. Now once a banana is fully ripened, you can throw it in the refrigerator. It will no longer continue ripening, but it's fine. The second issue is that there are a couple of fruits and vegetables, tomatoes being one of them, where you can actually cause some damage to the texture if the temperature is too cold. And so besides the fact that it may not ripen, you also get that kneeliness. And so tomatoes should really be ripened on the counter. If you're worried about the tomato going off, it can spend a day or two in the fridge before you use it if it's fully ripe. But don't bring the tomatoes home, rock hard from the supermarket, and then put them in the fridge. No good, it's gonna come from that. - And the other point you're in the book is, should you put the tomatoes with the stem down, or the stem up when you're storing it on the countertop? - Stem down. So think of the little brown portion, which is where the tomato was attached to the plant as a scar. And it is like any scar. It can be the source of transfer between the environment and the fruit. And you can actually sort of get an infection. I mean, I'm a little hyperbole here, but let me have a little bit of license. And so you actually will get more sort of perhaps rotting if it's exposed up. And so we actually did some fun tests where we put band-aids on tomatoes and then other tomatoes that were un-bandaged, put them up and down. We did this with pounds and pounds and pounds of tomatoes. And we're not suggesting you put a band-aid on your across, the scar on your tomatoes. - Just keep it stem down, huh? Without the band-aid. - If you just turn them stem down and then leave them on your counter, stem down, but that's your best chance of getting perfect wipe. - Jack, I understand that you're working on a new project. This time we're drinking, are we? - Yeah, we are. We're actually in the test kitchen working on a cocktail book. The technique and science of making amazing cocktails at home. - So, give us a little hint. Have you got any, what have you been working on? - We are looking at both the best way to make the classics. So, I think we're gonna weigh in on the shaken versus stirred when it comes to martinis, as well as all of the sort of cutting edge, new fangled, the cocktails that you see in bars and being able to make those at home. I think there's some gear. We love to test equipment. And so, we've been testing cocktail shakers, for instance, and have come up with some thoughts about what you should be looking for. And a lot of, there's a lot of science. - I'm trying to picture this. And there's 50 people in your kitchen drinking cocktails. - Oh, no, no. We have very, very, very detailed procedures here. So, first of all, usually, the food is quite delicious and people are often eating quite a lot. So, we are actually doing, as professionals do, when they do wine, which is that we are tasting and spitting. I know, that sounds very sad and not like a lot of fun, but obviously, we can't have a faster drinking cocktails all day 'cause that won't be, you know, they're knives and stoves involved. That's probably not a good combination. - I'm just wondering about (laughs) but I'd be very interested because one doesn't think in terms of, I think in terms of what's the best way to cook a steak, but I'm not sure what's the best way to make a cocktail because you have a recipe and you just, depends on what the alcohol is that's going into it. - Well, I think that's part of it too. The quality of the ingredients, whether you're cooking or making a cocktail is really important, but for instance, we tested, I think we tested 14 different cocktail shakers. And it really makes a difference which cocktail shaker you are using. We have both a favorite of what we would call the cobbler style with a lid on top. And then you'll see in a lot of bars, the two piece which is called the Boston style cocktail shaker and we've got recommendations for both types. Although I will say I think the cobbler style is easier for the cocktail newbie to master at home. - The book is called The New East Central's Cookbook, A Modern Guide to Better Cooking. This is Food News and Views. Joining us now is Somalia Jaqueline Coleman. And she has a very special guest for us today. So welcome Jaqueline. - Hi Linda, thanks for having me. - Well, I'm anxious to hear all about your guests. Tell us about it. - Yes. Well today we do have a very special guest. We have the legendary female winemaker from Argentina, Susanna Balboa joined by her daughter Anna. So welcome Susanna and Anna, thank you for joining us. - Thank you very much for having us. - Thank you, thank you for inviting us. - Well, I want to talk a little bit about this white wine revolution that Argentina is having. And we're going to start with the queen of Toronto's here. And so Susanna, can you tell us a little bit about your beginnings with this native grape in Argentina? - Yes, well I started working with this variety 42 years ago when I graduated from the university as the first female winemaker. And I've been challenged for the owner of the only one winery that gave me a job because for being female was very difficult to get a job. He challenged me to make a high standard wine from Taurontes. And I decided to mix much my knowledge from food process and also making skills. And I find out a way to achieve the fresh juice from Taurontes, which was usually as a table low quality wine. And I was able to achieve the fresh juice and fermented as a very high end wine. And the result is still working in the market. People was copying this style since then. But at the beginning, when I showed the wine for first time, my colleague says, oh, this is not Taurontes, this is a feminine wine. This is not a wine you are going to sell. However, the Pan American Air Company that was still flying in that moment bought the wine for the first class. And that was a good sign for me that was a correct way to follow making the wine in that style. - All right, well, that's a cool little story. So Pam, Pam Anne was serving your wine in first class. - Yes, my first Taurontes I made is Cepal Sierra, was served in the first class of Pan American. And then everybody started to copy in the style. And something interesting to tell you is Taurontes is an active variety from Argentina. So it's unique. You don't have this variety in any other country producer, like California or France or Italy, because it's crossing happens by colonization. 130 years ago, it was researched for UC Davis. And both compounds that made a variety is the Muscat Alexandria from Italy, Stamped Rieto from Canarian Island. And both politicized it for the winds or who knows, because usually the flower of the vines are Irma Fruvit. So the colonization happens in the same flower. So they needed or the bees or they needed birds or they needed some winds to have the colonization happening. And it happens in that place. And it's very unique and it's fantastic with grape for making one is very high in. - Yes, for sure. And I think it's a fantastic great for us to be drinking here in South Florida too. Now I love your Crios, Taurontes. But you introduced us recently to a new style of Taurontes, at least for me, this barrel fermented Taurontes. So can you tell us a little bit about why you chose to barrel ferment this wine and create this different style that we're not used to? - Yeah, well, always I perceive myself as a innovative person, innovative win maker. And 12 years ago, more than 12 years ago, I decided to challenge the limits of Taurontes. Among Crios, Crios was the standard of a premium wine. And I wanted to do something in superior level, super premium wine. Butter fermented is the normal way you are going to do for enhance the quality of variety. However, in my first trial, I'd fail because I was using the wrong barrels, toastiness, and until I find out the proper barrels, it took almost three terayas, three years, harvest happens only once a year. So I failed during two years. And in the third year, I find out the right barrels that are toasted at very low temperature. And the result was amazing. And with very good success in the market. Since then, I decided to be focused in changing the profile of our winery, trying to lead in Argentina, the white wine revolution. And our Taurontes were experimented with the first example of the white wine revolution happening 12 years ago. And nowadays, we are doing much more from white varieties. And as a company, we are exporting 30, 40% of whites, meanwhile the average in Argentina companies are in between 5% to 12%. So we are leading the way of the white San Rosa. - Well, I think that's great. And it's great to see all these different wines coming out of Argentina now and more innovative and different wines. And it's just exciting to see the country doing so well on a global scale from a wine perspective. - Yes, so Susanna, your story is fascinating. And we could talk all afternoon about all of the things you've been through. But at our lunch recently, Anna explained to us these pillars that your company has. So Anna, can you just explain to us briefly your pillars that Susanna Balboa-Wines is leading the charge with? - Yes, of course. So we created this brand called that it's Interwine Hearts. And with this, with only one of the hearts, we like to express our pillars. We wanted to make it simple and really clear for people. And the first and most, one of the most important pillars is courage. And we chose that word because courage, in Spanish, comes from Latin, "koracón" which means heart. And back in the days, it meant those people who lived with their hearts in their hands who were very transparent, very honest and who they are to do things, you know? And I really like the concept of courage as a summary of my mother's story, which is very long and it has a lot of resilience also. Because it's linked also to vulnerability in a very nice way. Then we can say that those who have courage get exposed and do things. And nowadays, the winery keeps that philosophy, having the courage to innovate, to push the boundaries, for example, with this weapon revolution, that of course it's not the easiest way for Argentina. However, it's for us, one of the most interesting and where the quality and the uniqueness of our country also is. We like this analogy on our country being so long and having more than 4,000 meters, a kilometers of sea coastline. And still people only know us for our meat. And we have king crab, we have southern haig, we have so many amazing fish in our species that nobody knows about. For us, white wine is something similar that we want to get out there and show to people. The other pillar are the laces that are in the brown coat. There are symbolize our commitment, our commitment with our team, with our community. And all that we do related to sustainability and the environment. We believe on our hands crafting and on our commitment always ruling. And the last one, it's the flame of passion that will make us be very obsessive with quality. And when we talk about passion, we talk about being really detailed oriented. We believe that everything doing in a very high standard from an amazing wine to hospitality or what we do also. We also have a luxury small hotel. It's a summary, it's a sum up of a lot of details. So with those three, courage, laces, and the flame of passion for quality, that's how we work every single day following those pillars. - Well, that's great. I think that's great. Those are excellent ways to describe how you're running the business there. And I know that Linda and I look forward to coming down to your hotel at some point, right, Linda? - You keep telling me that we need to have a trip there. And I understand that this hotel they have, each room has its own spa in it. - Yeah, yes. - So I'm waiting, I'm waiting. I think it sounds like a great trip to me, Linda. - Sounds like it, but it also sounds like it's wonderful to hear about these white wines from that area. And I understand that they're quite reasonably priced on the retail level. - Yes, yes, they are. You know, we really trust in the quality we can achieve because the influence of the moon dance is very strong. The high altitude is bringing us a bunch of different microclimates to growth, each variety in the perfect climate conditions and the quality we can achieve is outstanding. - That's all we, sorry, we're about to go out of time, but we, Jacqueline, I really enjoyed it. Didn't we, Jacqueline? - We did, I really enjoyed that vertical tasting that was really interesting to see all the different vintages of barrel fermented tarantas. - One more time, tell us the brand name so we know where to buy when we're going out. (speaking in foreign language) - Okay, Susanna, Susanna, (speaking in foreign language) - Yes, wonderful, thank you so much. And thank you, Jacqueline. Great information as always. - Thanks, Linda. - I'm Linda Gassenheimer, join me next week for more food news, thank you too. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)