So welcome to episode 24 of The Things Are Drivers, I'm William Mackenzie and in this episode we will be talking to the artist Jasmine Mills, now Jasmine is originally from Norfolk and like many of the people I've been talking to recently is a recent alumni of the Newland School of Art mentoring course which we did together and we also exhibited together at the Truman Air Show which has been a topic of many of the recent shows. Jane is now based in Cornwall and produces garments that she makes from natural materials like moss and bark and then these garments form the focal point along with interesting sort of post-industrial landscapes of her mythic almost ethereal paintings that she produces. They're really very good, I'll put a link in the description of this podcast to her website in her Instagram so you can have a look at them, but today I talk to Jasmine about the process by which she makes these and why she makes them and many other issues. I hope you enjoy it but without further ado Jasmine Mills, so have you been since the Truman Air Show? I have been pretty good, lots of changes for me but the biggest thing is I've had like a little bit of a break, just a reset I think after any sort of exhibition and it's really good to sit back for a minute and have a little look at the work that you've made and how it was exhibited and all that sort of thing and just give yourself a minute break and that's what I've been doing basically and I've just about got to the point where I'm ready to start making again. Okay, did you, because a number of people I've spoken to experienced a very severe crash particularly after this show? Well that's interesting. I mean I know I did because it wasn't just the end of the show, it was also the end of going to... Of course. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I have to say that I've missed the like meetups. Yeah, definitely. I think that's the main thing for me, like I'm not sure that I crashed but I definitely have missed like the interaction, seeing everyone because you get so new sir, everyone's company and the support that you get from the Corps so I've definitely missed that. Yeah, yeah. So you're back in Cornwall now? I am, yeah. And how does that feel? It's good, I'm happy to be close to friends and also the sort of artist community that I've got down here. I enjoyed a bit of time up in Norfolk, which actually was quite nice for my art because I was looking at it with fresh eyes and I have, I'll tell you a little bit more about it but I've been collecting bark to make me create a new garment that will make me inspire some paintings and whilst I was up there I had the opportunity to do all the collecting basically. So yeah, back in Cornwall is good place to people, it's nice. Have you moved on to the Moss, from the Moss obsession or is that just in the back? Do you know what? I do love Moss, I really love Moss. I think that you know things like that for me feel quite seasonal and I'm definitely drawn to different colours through the season and I think that this movement to bark is probably being led by that. Moving into autumn, you mean? Yeah, I think so. You know when you start to notice these changes in landscape, I can't help but be drawn to that, I just find it so fascinating and the connection and the interaction that you have with that, whether it's like leaves or particularly for me, I noticed that all the bark was coming off some of the pine trees at home which is sort of what's inspired this. And yeah, those seasonal changes I think, you know, that's really interesting. Because I mean, just to sort of describe your work for the people who haven't seen it, you know, these very sort of slightly esterial, kind of slightly mystical landscapes with figures in them. Yes. But they tend to have semi-industrial bit wasteland type landscapes, aren't they rather than British? Yeah. So they tend to be landscapes that are being reclaimed by nature in some sort of way, which is why I was so interested in the Moss because you know, it kind of felt a little bit like it, you know, it's such a small thing and actually it can grow anywhere. Yeah. It doesn't matter how bad a quality the soil is or the air quality, you know, you'll find its way into sort of any landscape. And also it's the beginning of new life it creates, it creates words. It creates like an ecosystem so that new plants can thrive. And I think there's something like really sort of magical about that. But my paintings, they are very sort of like dreamlike and sort of a little bit surreal in that the figures, they become one with the landscape, they sort of become submerged. It's almost a little bit like, I think about nature bathing a lot and sort of being truly at one with nature. I know that's a very overused phrase, but it's really about taking people into landscapes and letting them interact with it in their most authentic way. So almost as you were as a child, you know, sort of like, unjudgmental, playful. And yeah, just really submerging yourself into the space and the garments that I'm going to be making and have made. I really all part of that is quite formative. And I really hope that when I hand over the garment to the person that I photograph, they sort of a given permission to have that experience. So does it start with the garment for you or does it start with the place or does it depend? I think it does probably start with the place because there's that element of collecting. So previously I collected moss from Kennel Vale and that is what inspired the first garment. I used moss and other natural fibers to create quite a textured coat and that's what I gave to Rachel and Lily, my very brave friend, to model and interact with Kennel Vale. And also the Bissell Trail as well, I've used for photography, both sort of post-industrial spaces where nature has like completely reclaimed the area. They're very, very beautiful, beautiful places. And Kennel Vale, those were the ones that were in the Tremaineer Show, weren't they, from Kennel Vale? Yes, yeah they were, yeah. Yeah, because it gives that sort of decaying industry and has a sort of almost post-apocalyptic feel to it, but not necessarily, but in a sense, it's not a good thing. Yeah, when I paint, I'm looking for a sort of nice edge, I guess, like I want there to be some real beauty in the painting and the application of the paint, but I also sort of like the idea of it becoming some sort of fever dream or having the ability to slip off into something quite dark. So I think as well I'm drawn to these places that have some sort of darkness to them, that sort of like band and feeling. Yeah, and have your figures always been, have they always been female figures that you use? They haven't, but I think over the last year that has become so important to me. I think that's probably inwardly looking, something more to do with my personal journey and giving the experience to other women, you know, I think there's such a nice connection between nature and female body that is important, that they are women, you know. Yeah, is it also important that they're your friends, I mean, is that a feature? Yeah, 100%. So when we go and take the photos, it sort of feels a little bit ritualistic, I guess. We go out and talk, it's like enjoyable, you know, spending time with friends, but also giving them the opportunity to experience a place that maybe they wouldn't normally go to and have that moment with it. Yes, I totally get that. And then have you ever been the figure in the picture yourself? I have, but I haven't worked from those photos as of yet. I think that that's something that will come, but I think it will be more performative, and I'm slightly scared of that at the moment. But yeah, maybe in time. So does that mean moving away from painting, doing video or something like that, or does it always end up as a painting, do you think? I think for me painting is really important. Yeah. Always loved paint, always, and I just have such a desire to paint. It's something that's like in my core, you know, I feel like that's my purpose is to paint. So although there will be probably other stages, like film or photography as there are now, I think eventually it will end up leading to painting. I'm not against exhibiting the photography or film though. Well, that's what I was going to ask you. I mean, have you ever done that? No. But that's sort of, I guess, part of the next step this year and beyond. Because I could see a really good show with the painting and the photography and the film and also the garments. The garments. Yeah. I think as I sort of grow a body of work, especially with the garments, I'd really like to exhibit those. Yeah. But something I was quite scared of doing whilst on the course and like sharing it with people, I think because it is something that is so new to me. I wasn't fully confident to do that, but now it feels like that's something that I will be heading towards. Yeah. Fair enough. So, I mean, with sort of very tangible material like moss and bark, how do you actually construct a garment from that? I mean, is there a base that it sort of sits on then? Yes. So I have a coat which was like a second-hand purchase that I initially sort of sewed the moss onto. But more recently, I've made a waistcoat scarf, which is all handmade and those have got moss sewn onto them as well, and less other natural fibers, so they're just all moss. And then the hood that I'll be making out of the bark, that will be just bark and wire. I'm starting a little bit together and making some sort of right tests. Yeah. I'll be using copper wire for it, so we'll have some sort of metallic feel about it as well, which I think will be quite interesting. I like the idea of it being almost like chainmail, like something that's slightly protective. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of like a Roman's armoured tunic with that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And I know exactly what you mean. And what bark works best and what does it, what do you want to mix to? So I have a mixture so far from pine trees and also like typical English forest trees. I've got them from two locations at home, so there's a lot of forestry commission in Norfolk and Southwark. So a lot of that is pine trees. So we'll see, I've been drilling into it and as long as it's not too brittle, it does seem to work quite well, so we'll see how it goes. And do you have to treat it to stop it decaying or who's that part of the process of it decaying? I think I'm okay with it decaying, it's very dry, so in theory, as long as it stays dry, I think that it will be okay, but yeah, it might disintegrate in which case, you know, yeah, it could be quite interesting, but we just have to see how it goes. And is there a place that this new garment is going to go with or as you get to find? I think I will be taking it back up to Norfolk to photograph, my mum doesn't know it yet, but I think she might be the model for it, but yes, she's been the model for you before. She hasn't, no. No, that would be quite interesting. Yeah. There's something about, I've never done it, but I was struck in the show by Sheila's portraits of her daughter. Yeah, there's something, I think it's working with family, isn't it, when it's so personal, it means so much more. It does. Yeah. Because you feel like you're glimpsing a little bit of their relationship and their interaction. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 100% and it will be interesting, and I also like the idea of sort of making her into some sort of like woodland warrior, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that could be quite cool. That could look very good. But I saw you were at, I can never remember how to pronounce it. The gardens are just north of Penn's Ants. Trezoo, yeah. The classic. Trelicic. Yeah. I went there during the show. It's a great place, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. It's really, really nice, again, spending time with artists, friends, sketching, making the most of all the textures and plants this time of year, you know, before it all changes. But, yeah, it's stunning. I would highly recommend. Because I remember going there during the show and thinking of you, because you have all of these brilliant walls, almost, I mean, they must be under 150 years old, covered in moss of various different kinds, all around the, sort of, the walled gardens. Oh, I didn't actually notice that. I can't believe I didn't notice that, but maybe because it was, it was just so beautiful when we were there, like sunshine. I'm not sure that I would have, sort of, like, distracted by all the beautiful colours. Yeah. Fair enough. So, do you have a sort of show in mind that you're building towards, or is it just a case of work making stuff and then seeing what happens? I think it's a case of making stuff for the time being. I would be very interested in doing a large group show. There's a few spaces that I've seen and places that I've used before. And yeah, when we get together on Zoom in October, as a group, I've got a little bit of an idea of maybe introducing a group show to the group and see what people think. Well, it'd also be nice to try and, because although it was a tremendous show, it was very special. It was, it was interesting how well they managed to cohere of quite random selection of work. Yes. Yeah, they managed to make everything talk, even though they were completely different styles, languages, everything going on, and yeah, it all went together so well. But it would be quite fun to see, to be involved with whoever was involved, interested, but with a sort of specific brief in mind for a show. Yes. Yeah. And I think that would be quite good. Yeah, because again, it would be, you know, the idea of doing that end of year show is that we're all there for that reason, all there completing the course, and we'll come into that final sort of time, whereas if we take it out of that situation, you know, it's going to look completely different. And yeah, it might need something to bring it all together in a different way. Yeah, totally. So where do you do your making and your painting? Do you have a little studio somewhere, don't you? So I was at Crowley in Red Roof till recently, but now I am studio-less, so it's all changed a little bit for me, so I'll be doing a lot more outside and a lot more at home, which is actually quite nice. Yeah. I was a little bit worried about it, but I'm seeing it as an opportunity, because it will mean that I'm able to do things like residencies, instead of sort of paying for a studio every month, I'll be able to get them in a way and look at other opportunities, which I've not been able to do so far. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you like painting outside then? So I think the painting I'll probably do inside, but the making of garments will definitely do outside because that's quite messy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's interesting, I'm talking to people, there are some people who really passionate and love painting outside, but I just find it too uncomfortable. I think there's just too much drama for me, like the wind, the rain, I mean, it's good I think for sketching, I love sketching outside and even painting to a point where it's things that I don't feel sort of like precious about, you know, like our tests or, you know, just trying new things out, new mediums, whatever, but yeah, if I'm gonna do a painting, I quite like to do it in a controlled situation, yeah, drinks on hand and comfortably comfort and soundtrack and things like this. Yeah, I do like to have music on, yeah, it's important to me. I always find that interesting as well, I can't paint to music, well I can, but I find it has a really substantial effect on how I'm feeling under painting and things like this. I have learnt to be careful of that because I have noticed that before it can make paintings look quite anxious, depending on the tempo it can completely change a painting, so I've sort of become aware of it and like, try not to get too involved in that way. What medium? Is it oil paint to you? It is oils, yeah. Yeah, and your paintings, I mean, you've had a couple of smaller ones, which are sort of A5 size, roughly, but I mean, you also paint quite big, don't you? I mean, a couple of them were sort of a metre and a half high, I seem to remember. Yes, that's it, yeah. Is there a preferred scale you like working on them? I love painting big, I absolutely love it. I do find that I surprise myself when I paint small, but it is natural for me to go bigger. I struggle to get things on a page sometime when I'm working out compositions and I do find that my paintings, you know, they tend to do a bit of running away if I'm not careful, but yeah, I do love painting big, which is not very practical for gallery spaces. Well, that's true and storage and everything else. Storage, yeah, so yeah, I'm going to have to be sensible for a little while when it comes to that one. Again, if I end up doing a residency, that would be a bit of a true moment to go bigger. And do you have a venue in mind you'd like to go to? Not at this time, I'd like to go somewhere like completely different, I think. Maybe somewhere really rural, possibly even a different country. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that would be quite interesting for Jesse to Greece or something. No, I mean, that did look like an amazing residency. It did, didn't it? It was very him, though. Yes, very him. I'm not sure how somewhere like that would affect my work, but I'm not sure there's enough sort of like natural landscape, you know. I'm hoping to go to Orkney next year. That's my plan. Oh, nice. That's great plan. Yeah. And then I'm not sure where else we shall have to see. But I'm hoping also to make my way back down to Cornwall and see Lizzie and Anthony and whoever else is down there in the next couple of months. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you met up with anyone else since the show ended? I've seen Lizzie. Yeah. And that might be it. I might... For Loomie, she's not very far from you, because to her... No, she's not. She's only in Truro, and I'm sort of in Pemra in Pemra area, so she's just on the road. So yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing her again soon. But yeah, no, definitely. I'm really excited to see people, so... Yeah. Good. So when you say you're going about start work again, does it start with the making and then the paintings are quite long way down the road then? I will probably start painting in a few weeks' time, I would imagine, once I've made the herd, taking it to photograph, and then, yeah, painting. Yeah. And how much do you change the landscape from the photographs that you've got? I mean, do sort of... So I always start with the photo, but then I definitely allow for the paint to do some of the work. You know, I don't like to worship photos, because I think the way that I paint, I'm working with very thin layers, and actually I think if I was to sort of worship the photo and work to it, I would do something in my paintings. Yeah, I do know what you mean. And also, if you follow a photo too much, you can end up looking a bit flat on it. Definitely. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, it's not really important for me to get things in great detail or accurately in detail, as it is for me to sort of achieve a feeling, that feeling of sitting on a nice edge. Yeah. So that's really what I'm concentrating on when I paint more than anything else. So if you paint in layers, you're painting them to take quite a long time, then, because you've got to wait for each layer to dry, and that takes a couple of weeks of these to the oil paints. Yeah. Well, because I'm working so thinly, it does dry quite quickly, but yeah, I work on several ones. So I might have sort of like five, maybe a couple more, dependent on the size of each. But in the past, I mean, I've worked on sort of like ten. Yeah, yeah. And what do you paint on, because I remember seeing work on paper, but was there some on canvas as well? So I've come away from canvas. Yeah. I felt as though it was restricting me quite a lot, and I was sort of being drawn to squares, lots of paintings and squares, you know, and almost creating the same composition over and over again. And I find paper very freeing, so I've gone completely onto paper now. I think it feels to say there's less risk, although there's not. No, no. I know what you mean. I think maybe because I'm not as precious with it, I always get better results. Yes. So that has been the sort of objective, really. I'm sort of bolder with compositions and things have become more interesting because of it. And I'm always interested in what people do with the paintings that don't work. So the paintings that don't work, I'm going to be working over. Yeah. So I've got a few that I'm actually just going to cut up and just start working over, use backgrounds. Yeah. But I feel like I've always recycled, like canvases and paper. Yeah. So I feel like that's always the best thing to do. I find it very liberating to sort of paint over old paintings. Yes. Because you've already got a surface. Yeah. And it can feel great to get rid of something, to take charge of like eliminating something that's been bothering you. Exactly. You know, you don't like it anymore for whatever reason. Reason. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, how did you, I mean, did you do, did you go to art collection? I mean, how did you get into art in the first place? Yeah. So I went to Falmouth University. Okay. Yeah. Um, and it was amazing. And then after that, I had a month residency at cast in Houston, straight out of uni. Oh, wow. And that was, that was sort of, although now looking back, I really appreciate that time. But straight out of uni, it's actually quite daunting because you, again, you're making work for this sort of like end result, this, this degree show. And then afterwards, there's this time where you do crash, but also you reevaluate what you're doing as an artist. Yeah. And there's no rules anymore, and you're not in education, and there's no sort of box ticking, and then you've got this sort of newfound freedom to do whatever you like. So I guess that was a really sort of like a reset for me, having that time, just what I started working as well. So yeah, I was very fortunate to have that. And then that also led to my studio at Crowley. So I'd been there since, yeah, 2017. Oh, wow. And I've only just moved out. So, time for change. Time for change. Quite a blow to leave. I mean, I've never really had a long-term studio. I've always went to corners from other people, or they do at home, or as I've got here, you've converted garage. But it must be quite a blow to leave a long-term studio like that. To be honest, I've gone through so many different sort of times and feelings of the studio. So times where I couldn't really afford it, times where it wasn't inspiring me, and times where I've made massive changes to the space, to sort of justify being in it. And there's times where, you know, I've loved it, and I've loved making it there as well. So I'm always sad to leave there, and also shared it with my best friend, Lily, who I went to uni with, and you know, we've sort of made all those changes to the space together. So I was particularly sad about sort of leaving her and having that interaction. Yeah. But at the same time, you know, it's been so liberating. I don't have to, I don't have to worry about paying for it every month. I don't have to worry about being sort of like attached or stuck to a particular room. There's no pressure, 'cause I think when you have a studio, there is a sort of pressure to be in it, even if you're not making exactly what you want to make. So actually this change, a really positive change for me. And it's not to say that I won't have a studio in the near future, but it was the right time to let that space go. Because it's interesting you say that, because I wonder about that, because not having a studio that I pay for just to convert to garage, it's not the greatest space in the world. So I wonder if when you have that sort of pressure to be in the studio and produce something because you're paying for it, do you find that makes you more productive, or does it not actually make any difference? It can have both effects, I think, I think for me, it did make me very productive. I made a huge amount of work over that time, not everything I liked, but it definitely pushed me to be in the space and make use of it. I would say though that, on reflection, I maybe should have moved sooner, and there was a time where the roof leaked and we moved into a newer studio. And actually I loved being in that space, and I realised at that point, I think, that I was ready for a change. Although it had come at a sort of frustrating moment, you know, walking into a studio and seeing it flooded is not what anyone wants to see. No, no, no. However, what it did make me realise is that I can make anywhere, you know, it's not just about that space, like it doesn't matter where it is, as long as it's the space, and I think it makes you more resourceful as well, you know. Well, that's definitely true. I think it's useful to experience a variety of different environments, and then you eventually find somewhere that you're comfortable with. And I'm always interested to know, because one of the sort of interesting things we've discussed a lot on the course is where you sort of take yourself as an artist, if you go down the sort of formal gallery route, whether you go down the sort of hosting exhibitions on your own route. I mean, do you have a vision as to where you want to get to all? I think, you know, the sort of arts world has changed so much in the last sort of five to ten years that I get quite confused about what I want from it. So I in the past have done all sort of like self-funded, whether that's through fundraising or through just my own money, pop-up exhibitions, small scale and large scale, and they have been successful in terms of like sales, meeting people, collaborating with artists. It has created a lot of opportunity for me, but obviously there is always that desire to have work in a more commercial space, and I am at the point, I think, in my life where I would really love that, but I also still want to have the ability to do group shows. So if I could do both, that would be great. Well, I think you can do both, I think you just have to be careful as to who you choose as a gallery and then they're okay with you doing the other thing and then... A hundred percent, or maybe even, you know, paintings are going into commercial galleries whereas some of the more experimental work could be going into the pop-up spaces. So what's Cornwall like as we go into winter then? How's it going to be there briefly in the winter? Cornwall is grey, okay? Everyone has this idea of Cornwall being sunshine all year round, but to be honest with you, it does get to a certain time of year and it just rains constantly. I've quite enjoyed being in Penzance in February. Do you know what? I love Penzance, like, I think it has a great community, it has a great art feeling, like there's some amazing galleries there, yeah, I would happily live in Penzance, like I've thought about it a lot, but yeah, Penzance is great and even great in the winter, there's lots to do, you know? Yeah, that's true. But it was quite braiding to sort of walk along the sea front and it's dark. With the waves crashing. Yeah, exactly. And you're getting wet and then you go, "Well, hang on, this rain is salty." Yeah. And the rain at all is just sea spray. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite exhilarating. Good. So when do you think your next show will be or is that too early to say? I think it's a little early to say, but hopefully before, before the New Year, I'd like to think. No, that sounds like a good day. Something to wait for. It takes time, doesn't it, especially if it's sort of, like, self-funded and organised. Well, if I find a space, it's got to be available. Exactly. Yeah. Or maybe in the New Year. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have to let me know. We'll come along and have a look. Yes. Yeah. Maybe be in it. That would be brilliant. So that was Jasmine Mills. As I say, I will post in the description of this podcast, links to her website and so on. I particularly enjoyed the discussion about studio spaces and the effect looks and have on your work because I think a lot of people feel that there are only real artists if they have a professional studio space. And while there can be a certain amount of truth to that, I think you can sort of develop your own space where you can feel at home and able to work in the way you want to work. A room of one zone, as Virginia Woolford say. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you did, then please like and subscribe and leave a review. It will be really great. And until next time, that has been episode 24 of The Things That Drive Us.
