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This week we're jumping back in to Timothy Treadwell's story. We'll talk about his final trip to Alaska, his death, and the controversy surrounding it. 
Our oddity is the story of a Michigan Woman who lived in a sign. 
 
Sources: 
Grizzly Man (2005)
 
https://grizzlypeople.wordpress.com/ 
 
https://people.howstuffworks.com/timothy-treadwell.htm 
 
https://allthatsinteresting.com/timothy-treadwell
 
https://allthatsinteresting.com/amie-huguenard 
 
https://www.espn.com/outdoors/general/news/story?page=c_fea_AK_bear-guru_duped_woman 
 
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Treadwell 
 
 
 
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/woman-living-michigan-store-sign-police-little-known-safe-spot-rcna153417 
 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/10/michigan-woman-living-inside-store-sign
 
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Duration:
40m
Broadcast on:
11 Sep 2024
Audio Format:
mp3
(upbeat music) - This podcast contains graphic descriptions that some listeners may find disturbing. Listener discretion is advised. Now with that being said, welcome to the Mortal Moozings podcast. - Right, let's do this. (upbeat music) - We have a shout out to give this episode. - Oh yeah, so this one I've nicknamed Tan-yutan. - Tan-tan? - No, Tan-yutan. - Or Tan-tan. Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - We went through a whole list of it. - It was like, right, and it was Tan-yut, do we say-- - Let's workshop this. - Do we say Tan-yut, do we say Tan-tan? Yeah, yeah. And then it was like, no. Tan-yutan. - Tan-yutan. - Tan-yutan. - Yeah. (speaking in foreign language) - What? - It's Japanese. - Is this though? - I think so. So yeah, she's joined the model army. - It's not mortal army, stop trying to make it happen. - All right, you know, because this podcast is half British, model mob. - Why is that British? - Mob. - Yeah. - It is, isn't it? Mob and around, it's British. - Mob, if I heard the word mob, I think of like mafia. And then I think of Italian and I also think of Irish. - Of course you'd think of Irish. - Well, we actually had a little bit of an issue with the merch order that was put through. So basically what happened is, you know, we'll get the money through for the order and then we'll pay the supplier and then the order gets sent out. - Yeah. - Seems pretty simple, doesn't it lads? - Yeah. - Well, it's fucking not when you don't have the right account linked. So the money came through and then Neil had an almighty, fucking fish over it. He was freaking out. He was like, where does this money come from? What is this for? What the hell is going on? I mean, there's money. Not realizing it was the order coming through for the money and he just accidentally linked the wrong account. So it didn't go immediately out to pay for the merch. - No, but it was because I didn't get a notification but there'd been an order on the website. - Yeah, because you hadn't paid for jack shit. - I just got a notification but there was money sent to us and I was like, who is sending us money? - Yeah. Neil's level of panic was extremely high for someone who has just received money. - Right, as a Yorkshireman, we are known for being pretty tight with our money. And the last thing we want to do is owe someone money as well. - I don't understand that, but... - So I was like, someone sent us money by mistake. I've got to pay this fucker back. - Yeah, that's a real indebted mentality to have. That's some shit right there. No, but yeah, we got sorted but it was a little bit of a panic on Neil's. I was kind of like, oh my God, what is this from? What Neil was like, oh, what do you do? What happens? What's happening now? Do I call the police? Like he was full on panicking. Well, that's sorted anyway. Yeah, so the merch has been sent out. We hope you get it soon and enjoy it. And Vlad's weather's getting colder. - So is it? - Well, it's actually, it's very fucking humour today. I'll be honest with you. It's quite hard trying to record in here but the weather will drop. And actually we're recording this a week so in advance of it releasing. So it's going to be a little bit colder by then. Right, Neil? - Yes. - Yeah. - So if you would like a zip up hoodie, the same as Tanya Tan, you can purchase it from mottamusespodcast.com. Just have a browse while you're there. - Have a browse is anything else you fancy lads. Christmas would be here before you know it. - If you want a mug, what says you're acting the bollocks? We got you covered. - Got you. - So part two. - I've woke up the curtains. We don't need you getting distracted with butterflies focused on the window again. (laughing) No, is that better? - So this is a first since we launched. Every time we've done a two parter, it's been on the same day, recording. - Yep. - There's a weak difference here, isn't there? - Yeah, it's the first time you ever had to wait for the part two. - Yeah. - I think we even remarked about that in the last two parter. But you're like, "I didn't have to wait." You guys do. Well, folks you over now, haven't I? So I don't know how this is going to turn out. It could turn out different. - What you mean like the consistency? - Yes. - But yeah. - But I've only just got you to listen to part one. - Continuity, that's the word. - What? - Continuity. That was the word I meant to use. Can I just say as well, listening back to part one, I noticed that like I was talking bollocks. Some of the words, I was like, I seem to be just tripping up. Like at one point, I mean to say tuition. And I say commission. That really annoyed me. - Commission. - Yeah. As I'm saying it, I don't even correct myself. I just use the wrong word. And listen to it back. Like that is so fucking annoying. I can't change that. But it is. - Yeah. Like I notice it. I don't take it out cause I want you to look. - You want me to be ashamed of myself. - Yes. (laughs) - So, so we're still on Timothy. Timmy. - Timmy. - Timothy Treadwell, yes. The bear enthusiast. - Mm-hmm. - You've had his number from the get-go. - Yeah. I think I'm up to mistake number one. - Oh yeah. You had it like a counter going didn't you? - Yeah. - Right. Well, in the last episode, where did we get to eat? We talked about his background and his life leading up to... - It was a homeless Australian who was... - An orphan, yeah. From Australia. - An orphan. - Mm-hmm. - Who was an actor. - Yeah. - He changed his name. - He wanted to be in the theatre. - Yeah. - Yeah. - He's white. - Yeah. - There's some else. - Well, you were getting very impatient in the last episode 'cause I was going into his backstory edition. The different parts of his life leading up to it. And you were like, where's the bears? - Yes. - Where are they going? Like every time I went slightly to a new avenue in his life, you were like, oh, bears. It's like, no, no, hang on. - It's not a new avenue in his life like he moved state or something. - He did move state. - It was, yeah. But that's not where I got upset. It was one thing, he's a failed athlete. Then he goes to acting. Then he's a fucking Australian orphan. And I was like, when does the bear come into this? - Oh, you're just confused as to how it fits in. - Yes, it's like a softer version of Richard Speck. - Yeah, I mean, that fucker was just all over the place. He was here, he was fucking there. Like, I actually think apologized during that. He's like, I'm sorry if this is hard to follow. He's here, he's fucking there, he's everywhere. So yeah, his backstory growing up and all that. And then we mentioned how he would spend 13 summers of his life in Alaska, living among these bears. - Actually 13 summers, she doesn't mean 13 years. - No, no, I never meant that. So Timothy's last trip to Alaska will be in 2003. - I was 14. - I like how you have to like manage the timeline by your own age. - Don't everyone do that? - No, it's some stuff. I think people do, yeah. - So what were you giving out about then? - Because you have to actually verbalize it. It's not a quick thought in your head. - Right. - I was 13 summers old at that stage. You could have said that. You missed an opportunity there. - Bastard. - Now, although Timothy liked to portray the image of him being the sole one who was out there living in the wild, he was actually accompanied by his girlfriend, Amy Hugenard. And Amy had actually traveled out there with Timothy a few times before as well. Like we mentioned in the previous episodes, Timothy had shot over 100 hours of footage. And through all of those hours, Amy has only seen twice. So he's really trying to keep her hidden, like I said, have this whole image of he's this sole protector of these bears, this-- - Yeah, yeah. - What have you? - Yeah, it's the same as, well, it's not the same, but Bear Grylls, he makes out, he's this survivalist in that. - Sounds like a camera crew with him, what the fuck is he on about? - Well, he stood there drinking a bottle of his own piss when he's probably going off after the shoot that and drinking a bottle of Fanta. - Yes. - Yeah. - So I mean, he caused himself a, I'm a survivalist. - What's going on with Bear Grylls? I haven't seen him in years. - There. - No, he's not dead. He had like a death grip on all of us for a while. Like, we were like, oh, what's Bear Grylls doing now? Do you remember? - Who's shitsy? (both laugh) - Do you remember when you got stung by them bees, whatever it was, was it bees? His face was like... - No, that was Steven and it was jellyfish. - Who's Steven? - Steven Irwin. - Steve Irwin? And no, he actually died from that. I'm talking about Bear Grylls. There's a picture of him and his face as like swollen to fuck. But thank you for bringing the tone down. In October of 2003, their friend and pilot, Willie Fulton, arrived to pick up Timothy and Amy. So he arrives there, he gets out of his plane and ties it up. Timothy and Amy hadn't arrived yet, so he shouts out their names, but there's no answer. But Willie can see some motion up on the hill. So he just thought, you know, it's windy up there, maybe they can't hear me. So he starts to make his way up and he gets about three quarters of the way up there. And then he said he just knew something was wrong. He could feel it. - Sure. - As he turns and begins to head back down, he sees a bear coming out of the brush. And as he describes it, a pretty nasty looking bear that he hadn't seen before. Just sort of sneaking low with its head down. The meanest looking thing. - I don't think I've ever seen a bear like creep. - I don't know. - Sneaky. - Well, this was kind of, he noted it. You know, 'cause obviously he's somewhat familiar with the area and he was like, I don't recognize that bear and he looks fucking sus. He's off to some shady show. - The bear will be sneaky. They're about four ton. I suppose if they're hunting or something, wouldn't they sneak a bit before actually pouncing on their prey? - I thought they were more allowed to fucking roar, get up on the hind legs. - I genuinely thought you were going to do an impersonation of a bear there. - No. - Ooh. - They still look like. Not doing a fucking bear. - Yeah, one impersonation per show lads. Come on now. So as a lot of us would do, he says fuck this, gets back to his plane, unties it, hops in and sets off. - Wouldn't you just get in the plane? What do you mean? - We are safe in the plane. - Well, I think in case he needed to get away, because this, you know, I say it untie it's the, you know, the planes land on the water. He gets back there and he gets up into the air and he circles around. And as he flies over Timothy's campsite, he sees a human rib cage and a bear feeding from it. He circles around again, but lower down in an effort to run the bears away. And each time he's flying over, the bears are just picking up their pace, just eating faster and faster. - He's flying his plane at a bear. - He's, yeah, just kind of swooping down just to try and get them to scatter, to get away. - Oh no, if they're hungry, they're not going anywhere. - Well, I mean, that image kind of like stuck in my brain, the idea of like trying to scare them off, and they're like this kind of frenzy panic eating. - Well, just look at Norman when you give him his wet food. - Oh, that's intense. I've never seen any, like the speed of him. - Yeah. - Jesus. - Puts me to shame. He later said that it was in that moment that he realized just how close he came to his death. He gets this surge of adrenaline and he said that he was struggling to breathe and felt numb. But luckily he was able to pull it together and he calls back and tells them that they need assistance. So a party is sent out to search and as they're walking up the hill, they encounter a bear. And they're not fucking about now 'cause they already know that someone has been killed and you know, Willy's already been a bit fucking shook about this bear that he saw himself. So they immediately open fire, killing the bear. - Bastards. - As Willy looked over, he said that it was the same bear that he had seen earlier. - I'm sorry, but you know, I feel about that. You're going out into the wild and shooting the bear for doing something a bear would do in the wild. I don't agree with it at all. If you're the one going in the wild poking around and you get eaten by a bear, it's part of nature. - Well, to be honest with you, that was Timothy's stance. Like we're gonna obviously talk about it a little bit more. I mean, 'cause it's kind of, you see his point but it's also like still eh. - No. - But you don't know, you don't know about it yet. No, no, Timothy, no. Willy also thought that this was the same bear that had killed Timothy and he was right. They could open the 28 year old bear known as Bear 141 to find clothing and human remains in the bear's stomach. Further up the hill, they find what was left of Timothy. His head with part of a spinal cord still attached. There was large lacerations to his head and his scalp had been torn away. His hand was also found with part of his arm and his wristwatch still attached. - Yeah, just 'cause I know what bears do. This, are you laughing at? - I know what bears do. - No, I do. - Okay, yeah. - I know what bears do. The, once they get you on the ground, they pin you down by your spine, probably breaking ribs or spine as they do it while they chew on your head. - Yeah. - You're alive while they're doing it. - You're alive right up to the end. - Like I saw something where there was a bear attack. The bear did the exact same thing, got him on the ground. I think he broke a couple of his ribs going down. And then the bear started chewing on his head. Like this guy fucking survived, but the bear picked him up by his head and flung him up in the air. By his head. Can you imagine being the mate watching that happen? - No, like, I mean, you see something and you're like, oh, that's, that's it, done. There's not a chance. Now his watch that was still attached to his arm, was still ticking, still working away. And that watch would later be given to his friend, Joel, will he say it? - Well, that's a horrible souvenir. - I think for her it was kind of cause you know, she was part of the Grizzly People Organization. For her, it was something that he wore all along. It was part of him kind of thing. - And he's part of the incident as well. - Yeah, I think that's a judgment call on how you look and whether it's the last thing of that or it's the thing that survived the attack. It was the last part of him, I don't know, you know. Willy said that the worst part of this is that Timothy never would have wanted this. If he was to have been killed and so be it, he knew the risk and he would never have wanted a bear to die as a result. He would rather have died and that be it. So, you know, like you kind of brought that up earlier about like, you know, you don't encroach in their territory on what do you expect. Right or wrong of whether Timothy should have been there or not, he was fully aware of that and if it happens, it happens. - Yeah. - I still don't think he should have been there, but you know, whatever. But what about Amy? Amy was seemingly innocent in all of this. According to an ex-boyfriend, he said that Amy was naive and she was easy to convince of something but that was sort of part of her charm. She was just a very sweet person. - But mistake number two, naive. - Yeah, but this is Amy, not, I thought we're counting Timothy's mistakes. - Oh. - Come and train me now. - Well, they were both there. - Well, she was out there. But you have to wonder, did she know exactly the sauce with the situation? Or was she given sort of a false indication of what it would actually be like? Did she know? - It's gonna be the best safari I've ever been on. - Well, you know, because he was camping all where he shouldn't have been. Was he kind of saying, yeah, it's fine to do all the time, whereas in reality, he was putting her in extreme danger. - Mm, that's all right. I contain them. I boot them on the nose and tell them no. - Literally boot them on the nose. Something else that's interesting is that according to Timothy's diary, Amy was frightened of bears. - I feel like getting up and walking away. - That's what it kind of makes you think what was said to her to convince her to go if she had a fear of them, to begin with. - Yeah. - Was it kind of like, no, no, but once you experience them in person, you know? - Yeah. - You don't know. - Like, I'm scared of flying and heights. It doesn't matter how naive I am, you are not getting me to skydive. - Right. I don't like kangaroos. They scared the bijis of me, right? I'm sure it's spoken of going out camping with kangaroos. I don't even know if you can do that. But it's a no from me. But how many people do you hear saying to someone, you gotta face your fears, you gotta just do it. You're gonna love it, you get over it. I sound a bit like Donald Trump there, didn't I? It's fantastic, it's wonderful, it's beautiful, you gotta do it. Now, like, you do hear a lot of people kind of try to persuade someone out of their fears. I don't give a fuck what you say to me. If you place a tranchelet in my hand, I am still gonna be scared of spiders. I just am, I've had a spider on me. I still don't like it. It freaks me out. You don't like flying, you've flown many times, you're still scared of it. But that's because I don't fly frequent enough, I think if I flow in more frequent. Maybe, but part of that is the height thing now. No, 'cause when I'm scared, it's the take enough and landed. Yeah, I don't get that. Well, it's not so much to take enough because I love engines. But it's once the wheels lift off of the ground and... But it's kind of like, well, I'm fucked now. When you start doing that first turn. Yeah. That's when I'm like, I'm gonna shit myself. It's a good job, I've got to change your clothes. And you can't even go to the toilet straight away. You gotta just ride it out. I've got to change your clothes, it's fine. Yeah. So, like we said, Amy's scared of bears. Something else you have to factor into that with her fear. As time went on and the seasons changed, the bears ran the hunt for food, which would make them more aggressive. And at the time of their death, a lot of the bears that Timothy would have been familiar with were in hibernation. But there were still some roaming around. Amy wrote in her diary, seeing them claw bite and growl at each other made all my fears come flooding back. Flooded back so she had forgotten about her fears. Well, she was obviously scared before going there. And like I said, she had been with him a few times. So maybe she had had good trips previously. Yeah, so for previous trips had been good experiences. But now, like I said, a lot of the bears, they were familiar with, they kind of fucked off. And it's kind of some stragglers for lack of a better wording that are hanging around now that she's not familiar with. Loiterers. Loiterers, yeah. Loiterers. Loit from Bear Bastards, yeah. Something else interesting of note is that apparently Amy was planning on leaving Timothy. Well, that's there. Not like fuck you, I'm off. Like I think the relationship was coming to an end for her. Okay. So she thought, I know what I'll do as a final test. Go out into the sticks and hang out with some grizzly bears. Well, it may be one of those things, obviously there's going to be a lot of preparation with going out until Alaska and staying out there for a prolonged period of time. Maybe she'd already committed this and said, "Right, well, look, I said I'd go with you. I'll do it and help you." Do you know what it sounds like to me? Mm-hmm. He got wind of it, but she was getting rid of him. I know. So he was like, "I'm going to snuff her out. I don't have to do anything. The bears will do it for me." But the bears were that hungry. Mm-hmm. At Baffinum. Baffinum? Yeah. Which bear you cues in here? Who's at Melissa, or is it Sergeant Brown? My one called Demon? Yeah, Demon. Mr. Chocolate. What if it had been Spirit the Fox, Ghost the Fox? He was the troublemaker Robin the Hats. Remember that? Yeah. In her diary, Amy called Timothy hell-bent on destruction. She also said, "Tim would honestly die if it meant these animals could live." Well, he did. He did, yeah, but not the most reassuring feeling when you're there with him, I'd imagine. Yeah. On the 5th of October, the day that Amy died, she wrote, "There's a feeling in the air that makes me feel a little worried for some reason. Even Timothy has seemed a little off in a sense." Do you know if you were to go out in the wilderness? Mm-hmm. Would you write a diary? Maybe, yeah. They all seem to. Yeah. Maybe because it's kind of, you'd see so much different shit living among these animals that you probably would want to take note of some things. Well, not a bit voice notes on your phone, aren't it? Yeah. But you wouldn't be on your phone all the time, would you? Because even with how many power banks you're bringing and stuff. They use the sack of shit they are. Well, I mean, probably with that, if you're there for months and months, you probably have some sort of a generator. I don't know what you'd-- Just carry it on your back. No, that's what I'm saying. I don't know what's like a portable version, how much energy you have to conserve. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not a wilderness. All I know is every-- Survivalist. Every power bank I've had, I don't think I've ever seen a 10% increase. Half hour. Half hour. Then the whole thing is drained. Yeah. And like I said, your phone's up 8%. Yeah. Oh, and it takes three hours to get that 8%. Yeah. So on that night of the 5th of October, that they were attacked by Bear 141, their camera was on. Now, there's no video footage as the lens cap was still on, but their last words were recorded. Oh, shit. Yeah. Tim can be heard screaming, "I'm being killed out here." Amy shouts back, directing him to play dead. Amy is also heard shouting, "Get away, go away." Shoo. Go on from here. None of them work now. Against the fucking grizzly bear. Why seriously? Against the grizzly bear. Shoo. Shoo. She didn't say shoe, that was you. And obviously realizing that it's too late, Timothy can be heard telling her to go, run. The final moments of the tape hear the screams of Amy before she was killed. The only sound that is heard after that is of rainfall. Um, I just want to apologise for making liberty of this situation. But, aren't you supposed to do the complete opposite of what she did? Aren't you supposed to make yourself as big as possible and like banging pans together and stuff? I don't, is that actually true or is that something that people just say? Supposed to be to make as much noise as you can and make yourself as big as you can. Yeah, no, I've heard that too, but is that factual? Is that like a thing that's actually like advice given to people? Like, I do know if the fact the worst thing you're supposed to do is run. People say run downhill because their bear's legs get bunched up when they can't run, but that sounds like absolute fucking bollocks. Like, so this tape is horrific. It's insane that this exists. And is that on the documentary? They don't play it. Okay. So, the tape was given to Jewel. She has never listened to it. Understandably. But she did allow the maker of the Grizzly Man documentary to listen to it. I'm going to say someone asked because someone's transcribed it. Yeah. Um, after he listens to it, he is visibly upset, as you can imagine. And he asked her to turn it off. He then says to her that he thinks she should destroy the tape and never listen to it. Oh, because you hear all the, like... You're hearing... You're grinding a teeth on the bone and... Well, to hear someone screaming out in pain, to warn someone to get away, go, to hear Amy's final screams, and then silence, but the rainfall is fucking intense. Yeah. So similar to that of Chris McCandless, people certainly had some opinions of Timothy. Like myself. Like yourself, yes. Tom Smith, a research ecologist with the Alaskan Science Center of the U.S. Geological Survey, said, "Treadwell was breaking every park rule there was. In terms of distance to the bears, harassing wildlife and interfering with natural processes. Right off the bat, his personal mission was at odds with the park service. He had been warned repeatedly. It's a tragic thing, but it's not unpredictable." So, from his comments on Timothy, you know, not unlike your own opinion, we did mention previously, he definitely had a sense of self-importance. And Jule had previously spoke about how he had his own sense of justice. He didn't seem to care about the reality, just his own reality. The park had rules in place for a reason. He had been given citations for keeping food in his tent and illegal camping practices. In fact, a new rule was even introduced because of Timothy, known as the "Treadwell" rule. Wait, illegal camping? What? Illegal camping practices. Is that like, shitting? Well, how he was camping, so, like I said, they introduced a new rule because of him. And that rule is that campers must move their camp every five days, with the distance of at least one mile to prevent bears from becoming too comfortable around humans. Yeah. It sounds fair enough to me. It's so much to say about foxes and squirrels. Like, they say they don't feed them because they're getting braver. And attacking bears and stuff. That's not funny. No, no, it's... It happened in the UK. Mm-hmm. The baby was in a pram. The baby. In the back garden. Mm-hmm. Someone's got a house. Yeah. A fox jumps in. Yeah. Clawed away at it and then fucked off. Killed baby. No. Just injured the baby. Severely. And then, with squirrels, stop feeding them nuts because they'll bite your finger. Serious? Look it up. Which one? Because there's the red and the grey squirrels. Which ones are supposed to be bastards anyway? The red ones are supposed to be bastards anyway. The red ones are the bastards. Because one of them's killing off the other one. The red ones are the bastards. As far as I know. Well, the red, aren't they? You mean, like, "gingers"? Like... What? You mean because they're "gingers"? Is that what you're getting at here? No. Well, what's red? The red evil. How many evil? Angry. Oh, okay. Everything's red when it's negative. Okay, so foxes and squirrels aside, bears are slightly more of a threat. And we... Just a bear. And we definitely have to have the rules in place. Yeah? What do you know what you could do? Don't go out there. No, me personally, no. I'm not about it with the camp and all that. Never mind a fucking bear hanging around me. If I have to shit in a bucket, I'm not going. Yeah. Let's live back. That's going to be a quote. People are going to have that as a motivational quote. Above their bed. No, in their office. Oh. So yeah, anyway, Timothy wasn't very good at following rules. Obviously, with a rule, like the Treadwell rule, being introduced. Like, I bet he thought that was clever, but a rule is named after him. Well, he's dead. So... Oh. He doesn't know about it. Okay. But with the rule, like that, being introduced. Obviously, Timothy wasn't following the guidelines that they had previously set out. Yeah. Timothy would camp in an area known as the Grizzly Maze, which was a trail that was known to have a shit ton of bears. That's not the noise of me shitting in a bucket. I'm clapping. So it's like, well done. Gone to the best spot of it. Grizzly Maze. Now, the park that he was camping in, the Katmai Park, was established in 1918. And in the history of the park, these are the only deaths caused by bear attacks. So it's not a common thing. Yeah. This was an isolated incident from not following rules. One of the men who was tasked with the cleanup had said that he basically thought Timothy was an idiot and that he had got what he deserved. Wow. Like... Oh, this guy was brutal. Not in sermon. He wasn't holding back. Not in fewer words. He did say that the real tragedy was bringing Amy out there with him. He had sympathy for her, but not Timothy. Well, you're your own woman. He also said that he thinks the only reason Timothy survived as long as he did was because the bears thought that he was lacking mental capacity. An idiot, basically. He didn't use that word. He used it, a bold word. But yeah. Did it remove our? Yeah. Okay. And he said that he thinks the bear just had enough of his fuckery, basically. And they're like, "Right. Shaftor, Timothy." Which, I mean, fuck me, he had a good run. He had 13 summers of living with bears before there was any type of an incident. Yeah. I don't believe that Timothy wanted to be a bear. What? Yeah. I think they're getting that from the whole looking into a mirror thing. I don't believe he wanted to be a bear. I think he liked... He admired him. Yes. He liked the simplicity I maybe didn't quite. Like we said previously as well, it is simple in one way, but extremely fucking brutal and chaotic in another. And I don't think he quite connected that quote. I would never ever kill a bear in defense of my own life. I would not go into a bear's home and kill a bear. That is what Timothy had said previously. Yeah. So, you know, again, he would never harm a bear. And if he was to get mauled, killed, whatever, by bear, so be it. You know, and I understand that he was meaning to sound respectful to animals, but... Yeah. The only bit I don't get is... Her real went with him. Is there screaming "Play dead, play dead." But the bears were starving. It didn't matter if you were dead or not. The bear was eating you. Mm-hmm. So playing dead wouldn't do anything. It's not going to stop. I don't know what I would... What shit I would come out with in that situation. I don't know what the hell I would say. What would you say, Neil? Get your son fucked off. Yeah, you probably would, actually. Yeah, you were already sorted. Stop acting the bollocks. So, yeah, Timothy thought he was being respectful and very caring of these animals. But when you put that against native Alaskan people who know how to coexist with bears peacefully, and you don't need to literally live with bears. Sven Hackenson spoke from his perspective as a native Alaskan, part of the Allutic people. He said, "They avoid us, and we avoid them." If I look at it from my culture, Timothy Treadwell crossed a boundary that we have lived with for 7,000 years. So they're all going after Tim? Yeah, because I mean, they're standpoints fair. We don't want to harm these animals, but we also know not to get too close. Yeah. Let them live their lives, who will live ours. I mean, how I look at it is I really think it's the case of trading one addiction for another. Yeah. You know, Timothy kind of said previously about being out there. It was kind of something that kind of pulled him out of his previous troubles. Yeah. And he just became obsessive with this. Yeah, I was going to say it's definitely an obsession. I think, unfortunately, he lost sight of the true dangers of not respecting the boundaries of wild animals. He had talked about how there is no place more dangerous and exciting to be. Stating, "I'm edgy enough. I'm tough enough. This is my land." It's actually not your land. No. Okay. This was during a video where he kind of was going on a rant about the park service again. You know, when I was saying, he's like, "Oh, you fucking fucks" and all this. And it was kind of like, it's almost a little bit unhinged feeling in the video. Again, not maybe emotionally equipped to deal with the reality of this. I mean, he would literally walk up to a bear and fucking boop on the nose. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's kind of this fucking rage and kind of passion about something. And then the other hand, it's boop. Yeah. Cutey bear. No. Yeah. Like, I don't know if it was part of his addiction previously, but I don't think you were playing with a full deck when he thought about the dangers of bears. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it was the drink addiction, but like, blood is judgment. Yeah. I mean, we're actually going, obviously, I've already watched the documentary to get some information for this case. Neil is actually going to sit down and watch it. And we might have a bit further discussion on our Patreon series, Knock 'Em Back, if you're interested to hear that from Neil's perspective. That's basically us talking about it pissed up. Yeah. See, now you kind of know the case, but I think it's going to be interesting for you to actually hear Timothy speak. He's not like I was saying, but he was like, I love you until Cutey to the Bears. It's kind of odd behavior, you know, but that's the story of Timothy Treadwell and the death of Amy Hugenard. Oh, shit. I feel more sorry for her than I do him. I feel bad for both of them. There's a little bit that kind of makes me a little bit angry at Timothy, but I feel as though I kind of- But he was a rule breaker. I mean, that does bother me. That really pisses me off. I feel like maybe someone should have intervened and, you know, how many people were encouraging him to go off and live with these bears? You know, the whole Grizzly People organization? Were they encouraging this or was he going rogue from what they believe? I don't know. I think you're going rogue. Hmm. It does seem that way. Yeah. Well, shit. Um, yeah, definitely watching the documentary tonight. Um, so oddity. Oddity. So, back in April of this year, a 34-year-old woman was found living in a sign. A sign? It's exactly what I said. I said what I said. She was living in a sign. A sign's a flower. Well, not all signs, Neil. Absolutely. It's just a sheet of metal on a lamp post. No, not necessarily. This was a big sign. So she was found living inside a sign for a family fair supermarket in Michigan. So it's on top of the roof, so it's a big kind of structure. So the sign is located on the roof of the supermarket, and it's more of kind of, like I said, a structure. It's like an attic-type space on this building. When officers arrived and knocked on the door, she emerged dressed in all black with a pair of ski goggles on her head. Apparently, she was wearing them because she was sensitive to sunlight. What? Okay. So they must have been tinners. Yeah. I'm guessing. I'm guessing so. So they knock on the door. She comes out in her fucking deadly outfit. And she turns to them and says, "How'd you get up on this roof?" She's questioning them. Yeah. Yeah. And they replied, quote, "ladder. We're not roof ninjas." And is this where she said, "Have you got a warrant?" Well, this is the thing, right? They actually don't know how she was making her way up there, and she didn't tell the meter. There was no ladder left there, or they don't know how she was actually getting up there every day. Through the store? No, I don't think so. I don't think they had access through the store. But don't a lot of the buildings in America have the firescape things? Well, I'm guessing not from the roof here, because they're like, "How'd you do it?" And like I said, she didn't tell them. So when police entered- She should have said, "I don't need a ladder. I'm a roof ninja." Maybe she did. And there was like, "Right, cut that. We're not having a smart ass answer us back." Use my words against me. When police entered this space, they found that she had laid down flooring. She had bedding. A desk with a computer and a printer, her phone and a coffee machine. A coffee machine? Yeah, she made a right little look for herself, like it was fucking lethal. Unfortunately, that's what actually gave her away. A contractor found an extension lead running across the roof that she had been using for electricity. They also noted that her living situation was quite impressive, especially as she had been living up there for about a year. Okay, no. Right, that is impressive. But because of what you've been like with the previous auditors, I honestly thought you were going to say 10 years. Oh, so you're not impressed with the year? No. I should be. Okay. But you fucked me up with these auditors. I don't think it's impressive, but there is no easy access point to the roof. Yeah, it is a thinker. Yeah. She must have come through the store, had to. She described her accommodation as an old safe spot. The police asked her, "How in the fuck did she manage to survive up there through the winter? It's Michigan. It gets fucking cold." To which she replied, "I know how to deal with that. I've been in Alaska." Why did everything come back around to Alaska? Bless her, though. She was homeless and she had found this fucking deadly accommodation. Like she said, it was an old safe spot. So she was able to keep herself safe and warm and out of the way. The employees at the store were said to have treated her with compassion and professionalism. She agreed to leave and no charges were pursued. Good. Yeah. Good. If you're the store manager and you'll find out, but she's had lumps kicked out of her on the street now because she's actually living on the street, hang your head in shame. I mean, I would like to hope that they got her a place in a shelter or something. Yeah. Because how fucking evil would it be to take her out of there and then just place her back on the streets? Yeah. But I mean, like, coffee machine, computer printer, living up. Yeah. Fuck. The most well off homeless person. Do you know what a lot of people are doing now? Living in skips, they're hiring a skip. And instead of paying for rent, they're just paying the weekly or the monthly charge for a skip and living in it. You know the big ones with the doors? Yeah. And just living in it. Well, a guy I used to work with, he actually got a storage container and him and his girlfriend turned it into an apartment kind of thing. Yeah. And that. You got to get creative. He's got a pot of potty. Put one of them in. I'm not shitting in a book. We've already got over this. Thank you so much for listening. Find some Patreon, TikTok, Facebook and Instagram. If you have a case suggestion or maybe even your own story, email us at mortalmuseingspodcast@gmail.com. [music] [music] (dramatic music) [ Silence ]