What do you think is the toughest triathlon in the world? Ironman Lanzarote, Norseman, ICON Livigno? They are all tough and have a legitimate claim, but what about this one?
Enduroman, also known as Arch to Arc. The athletes attempting this will run 87 miles from London to Dover, then swim at least 21 miles from Dover to France (distance could be more depending on currents/tides), and finally bike 181 miles from Calais to Paris. There have only ever been 59 finishers!
The latest to attempt this is Yorkshireman Paul Robinson. Paul is a seasoned triathlete and has been involved in the sport for over 30 years. He has completed several ultra distance events, as well as 3 Channel swims, so he has no illusions about what he is attempting. He is taking on Enduroman to raise money for charity, after being inspired by Nottingham triathlete Sam Perkins who now suffers from MND. Sam has set up his own charity
Stand Against MND.
This is Part 1 of a 2 part episode, and in this conversation we’ll talk about:
- Specific logistical challenges for Enduroman
- How do you train for an event like this?
- Body fat for warmth vs weight loss for running
- How and what Paul eats/drinks while running, swimming and riding
- Mental strategies for staying focussed
- The impact of the great British weather
To find out more about Paul please visit the following sites:
Just Giving charity link -
Stand Against MND
This is
Paul’s interview with BBC Derby when he talks about the challenge
BBC website article on Paul's Challenge -
Derbyshire man prepares to take on the worlds hardest triathlon
Paul's inspirational book -
Becoming Brutal by Claire Smith - first British athlete ever to complete a continuous Double Deca Iron Distance triathlon. 48 miles of swimming, 2,240 miles of cycling and 524 miles of running in 28 days.
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Beth@TheTriathlonCoach.com.
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Hello folks, welcome back and if you're a new listener, a very big welcome to the show. This is the high performance human podcast and I'm your host Simon Ward. Now I have an absolutely cracking guest for you today. 40 year old age group triathlete Paul Robinson and this is part one for two-part podcast. Paul is currently in the middle of his toughest challenge yet. Well he may be and I say that because the start time for his event is weather dependent but we'll come back to Paul in a moment. In order for you to get the most out of your training and your life you have to be what I refer to as a high performance human. Race results and fitness are only a part of this. What I'm talking about is your whole life performance. Sleep, nutrition, exercise, relationships, mental health and much more and you don't have to be a high level athlete to excel at any or all of these. We appreciate that you might still have room for improvement and if that's the case then we would love to help you. I've currently got availability to take on a couple of clients and my wife Beth who is a certified life coach also has some availability. So depending on what you're looking to focus on we've got you covered and you can find contact details in the show notes. Right, well back to this week's guest. So Paul Robinson is attempting the Endura Man which is also known as Arch to Arch. It's billed as the toughest triathlon in the world for good reason. It's not in the normal triathlon order for this particular reason. Paul has to run 87 miles from Marble Arch which is the Arch part of the title to Dover. Then when he's there he has to wait for the right weather window in order to swim the English Channel which is normally 21 miles but anybody who's followed Channel swim crossings will know that the tide can make that much, much longer. And then once he's made it he has to get to Cali because he's not necessarily guaranteed that he's going to come ashore there and then cycle 181 miles from Cali to the Arch to Triomphe that's the Arch part of the title and that's in Paris. So the record is currently 69 hours but Paul's not going for the record it's a big challenge for him and in this episode we'll talk about his preparation. Some of those challenges that he has faced during training and during the event is daily nutrition and what he'll eat while running swimming and cycling and we'll also talk about his mental strategies for staying focused and how that weather will play a major part in the event. You'll also hear Paul's dad Dave who's an old friend of mine in the show and chipping him from time to time because Dave is one of Paul's most avid supporters as you might expect and he'll be there throughout the event giving Paul nutritional support and vocal support as well. Anyway that's enough about that let's crack on and hear from Paul and his dad Dave. Paul welcome to the show and also welcome to Dave your father. It's a trip down memory lane for you and I Dave. It certainly is. Certainly is. I think we first met in about 1990. Yeah well regular listeners to this show and people who read my blogs will know that I've been participating in triathlon since the Aibra triathlon which you probably did back in first one back in 1987. Did you ever have a crack at that Paul? No I was too young back in that day but I remember going to watch my dad and some of the Aibra tri club members competing it's a good memory. Well that is a blast in the past because Aibra triathlon club preceded Lee's Bradford triathlon club Dave and you were probably one of the original members weren't you? I was the original I've got a decanter upstairs that says Dave Robinson founder chairman of Lee's Bradford. Oh Lee's Bradford right okay were you in Aibra then because Lee's Bradford. I was in Aibra as well I was I think I was our newsletter secretary with Barry Sted. Barry Sted yeah well we had two clubs in Lee's then didn't we Mercury it was another one and Jack Maitland was in Mercury with John Degan and a couple of other people and then we sort of formed Lee's Bradford that tried to take over the whole city anyway so Paul we're here today there's a bit of a sort of tenuous link now isn't there because Dave you moved down to Leicester at the beginning of the new millennium to live down there and obviously work and train with that club so you sort of left leads Paul you were growing up around triathlon so you would probably have been inspired by some of the people that you definitely were just chatting about yes most definitely you know I've got memories in my teenage years of it was the Oakley triathlon was a regular Lee's Bradford club event so yeah my dad was chairman back then we'd go and help out you know counting lengths and marshalling and then watching Lee's Bradford try members do what I am man I think one of the ones was down Birmingham way the longest day so that's the longest day yep that's one of my earliest memories of watching I think it was Paul Freeman Tim Marshall for doing just thinking this looks mad but one day I might want to do this myself so yeah the longest day I did I did that one twice I think that's where I got my PB I also did some commentary there and I remember there wasn't many people and it was such a miserable day that I ended up sat in my car near the finish line in this field with the engine on running so that the windscreen wipers would go and so it could keep the car mist free so I could see what was happening and it was just you know it takes a while for athletes to come across the line when you're watching an event like that and so there were massive gaps in between and yeah yeah funny funny memories good memories good memories so it turns out that Dave you know somebody that's in the same company as my wife and she'd heard my wife talking about my podcasts and my triathlon and she mentioned to my wife that Paul might be an interesting guest so if you follow in that listeners it's quite a tenuous link there isn't it really and so here we are anyway yep and I'm here Simon to talk about the event that I'm going to be doing so I'm doing the arch to arc and drawing my triathlon any day now I've sat watching the weather the weather window in the English channel and it's it's pretty nervous times at the moment so it's fun to be having a chat with you arch to arc I seem to remember that there was a guy called Ed Getty is he the guy that founded it was he was a Royal Marine wasn't he back in the day and that was his concept if if I'm yeah he did it I think the first time it was 22 23 years ago he did this and yeah it's an 87 mile run from London to Dover swim the English channel and then 181 mile cycle to the mark to the tree on so yeah he started this 22 years ago and 59 people have completed now in the last 22 years now so I mean there's a whole lot of stuff we need to talk about there because um firstly it's a triathlon in in a mixed up order isn't it obviously because you've got to get from marble arch down to Dover then you've got to do the channel in the middle and then you've got to do the bike at the end to get into Paris but it's not just as simple as somebody saying right all off you go you talked about the weather there you can't start doing your run until you know that you're going to be able to swim the channel with the right weather conditions otherwise you're going to be sat around in Dover for several days and then that'll affect your timekeeping for the whole event yeah exactly that's Simon so the weather window for me opens on the 7th of September and we're trying to plan it so we get to Dover at the exactly the right time for the swim you know we're building in some rest so we're hoping to get about 48 hours notice but it may be as little as 36 so the pilot who's going to be alongside us in the boat in the safety boat and they're going to be feeding us that that'll be on the boat as well helping out he'll give us the nod when the weather window opens and it'll take about 18 to 20 hours for me to run to from London to Dover and then building a little a little sleep and rest and then going with the channel swim but yeah at the moment we're just sat up the whole team has sat watching the weather every day let's rewind a little bit then Paul and we talked about being inspired by folks at Leeds Bradford tri and when did your own triathlon journey start so my dad took me to I had a little gold racing bike that I remember as a kid when I was eight and nine and we went to I think he was ample fourth triathlon and that was my first triathlon at the age of nine so 31 years ago Simon so I've been doing triathlons a long time and over the years just gradually built up the distances so I remember doing rip and triathlon with the Leeds Bradford tri club that was another good club event and then I actually went to university at Loughborough and then got involved with the triathlon club there so I did a bit of the books racing but I always liked the longer distance stuff so my girlfriend at the time would go away and do Olympic distances so I'll try and stuff down in Northampton Milton Keynes so did Olympic distances through uni and then after uni built up to half Ironman events and that's really what flows my boat the longer distance stuff. Dave did you have to push Paul into doing this or did he did from so many years of tagging along watching you and the others did he say to you dad can I ever go at one of these ones? I didn't have to push him and these days when the title in the channel when things get dark he rather than thanks me for getting him into it he rather blames me so you started all this down so I'll take pride from that that I never got to his level half Ironman was the furthest I ever got but very proud that he's taken it to this ridiculous level. When you're on the boat we'll just dive into this now when you're on the boat do you have a little whiteboard that you can write messages to him on? Yeah we've just bought a brand new one my wife Pat has just bought a brand new one yesterday and lots of coloured pens to go with it so yeah giving him messages that come through if the fundraising goes high we'll be putting numbers on there to encourage him further. I'm just thinking about when he's blaming you for getting into it you can write him some messages back and then you can make sure the boat stays far enough away so you can't hear his response. It worked really well though last time you know when you're 10 hours into the swim and you know the board of sets in and my dad was getting messages on the boat from all my friends back home so he just keeps you you're able to read it it's a bit tricky to read it but it helps past the time. Yeah I do have a little bit of an insight into that because as I was telling you before we started the recording I was part of a channel relay swim a few years ago we'll come back to that in a moment so so you got into triathlon you started doing the longest stuff when did you do your first Ironman? 2014. Is that the outlaw then? The outlaw in 2014 that was my first one 10 years ago yeah wow that's good and it was a blazing hot day and then I think got it again two two or three years later and it was the exact opposite it was hammering it down but not the day not the year when it was hammering down so much that we had to call off the bike ride due to no it still went ahead but it was a wet day yeah so yeah I've had two really good races and that's very local to where I live now it's a great you know I went to see mates do it this year brilliant race okay now it's not the first time you've swimmed the channel either is it you've you've actually done that as a solo challenge yeah my channel journey started back in so I graduated in 2008 and then got my first paycheck and one of the first things I did at Simon was like I want to swim the channel it's quite an expensive endeavor you know for the pilot boat the registration fees so I booked that in 2008 for 2010 you've got a book two years ahead you know this and my plan was to do that solo and I got into my career I didn't have enough time to give it the training it needed so I turned that actually into a relay started a three-man relay in 2010 that was great and then I did a two-man relay in 2012 then I had kids and eight years passed before eventually I got to swim the channel solo in 2020 the year of covid which was an interesting year you know spent spent the winter training for covid and then all of the pools shut then we were locked down for quite a while and then ended up just being able to jump in a local lake and do laps of a local lake there was no pool access so I basically trained for the channel without any pools swimming and you know not bad really to be able to use the lakes it gets used to the cold water a bit more than the pool but there's something about swimming in the pool that even the elite open water swimmers will talk about you know most of their conditioning is done in the pool because of the control and the timing and all of that other stuff yeah exactly so I missed that a bit but anyway I got across it was 13 hours it was it was a good day out my dad was there and I'd say the first 10 hours were pretty smooth I was in my comfort zone and then and we were aiming for cap grenade a bit that sticks out where you're trying to hit and we missed it not by far it felt like I could almost touch it and we just I'll never forget the feeling of it does moving past it and me wanting to get it was probably 500 meters away and I couldn't get there the tide was just pushing us moving it probably three or four knots so a lot faster than I swim and it just moved us out into with sand bane off of there and I did another now and a half two hours on and that was when I was swearing at my dad on the boat saying what the hell's happening we were meant to be finishing in 11 hours well that's been the friend of mine he um he was just after 2012 he was a really strong swimmer but he'd been working at the Olympics in a lot of hours and he I think he was a bit tired he got within about half a mile so like you said a touching distance and the tide had turned and he just wasn't making any progress and he was basically he was like swimming in an endless pool for an hour and he was getting more and more tired in the end the captain said to him we're going backwards now um I think we're probably gonna have to cut this off because if we don't we'll end up round the coast and then you'll be washed for the south um yeah so it's terrible I've seen that happen before it's terrible so at least we managed to get there 13 hours and it yeah I was so happy that was a lifetime stream really so for a lot of listeners they um they've probably done an Ironman or they're very familiar with an Ironman and so they know what the training's like and you've got swim 3.8k and it's a lot different for swimming the channel isn't it um you know just talk us through some of the specifics about doing a channel swim first before we talk about the wider training for this event yes of the channel swim I mean the reason why I mentioned I missed the pool in covid years there's a lot of conditioning as you'll know through the winter month when you can't really swim in the lake um I do the channel non-wetsuit so you try and get your fitness up in the pool doing some long sessions through the winter um one of my favorite sessions is 10-400s and I've even stretched stretched out to 24 hundreds this year so some big sessions two three hours even in the pool up to about 10k the maximum I ever did and then as soon as the lake start opening you know 14 15 degrees Celsius I start jumping in and then start building out the acclimatisation to the cold it's a bit of a shock at that time of the year but then as as the lakes warm up you know you go from the two hour three hour swims up to four or five hour swims um and then eventually I'd be traveling down to Dover for weekends and there's a there's a couple of channel training groups down there that meet every weekend great group a group of people and you just get in the mindset that actually you're not quite as crazy as you think there's other crazy people out there and um that helps you do some of the big sessions I mean the famous one that the encourage you to do is seven hours on a Saturday and six hours on a Sunday so you've done basically a quick the equivalent of a channel swim over two days so normally if you can do that and get out vaguely comfortable you you've stand a good chance of making it across the channel who was the girl who's done more crossings than anybody you know mom wasn't her mom the coach she used to sit on the beach in her deck chair um so Alison Streeter yeah that's that's Alison Streeter yeah um so Frieda used to be the lady who'd sit down there every weekend and you know elf everyone vacillate because you you're chafing salt water so you've got to be covered in Vaseline it's not really for heat retention it's more for chafing and then just walking into the edge of the sea every hour and feeding people so yeah she did that for many years and then there's a couple he's turned into a couple of different groups now so there's Emma France runs a group she took over from Frieda and then there's also the king swimmers so the king of the channel Kevin Murphy Kevin Murphy I think he's done like 30 30 odd times he swam the channels so I've done a bit of training with both groups and great fun is is there anything that you have to achieve in order for them to say yes you're okay like yeah if somebody if somebody wasn't familiar with this and did a bit of pulls from you said I want to swing the channel um they could get into a lot of trouble so do you have to reach a certain threshold for them to say you'll probably be okay yeah so it's a time-based requirement you've got to have done a six hour swim in less than 16 degrees celsius water so and that's got to be ratified by somebody in the swimming community so swim coach or one of those groups down in Dover so I tried to do that early in the season I did that in May I think it was late May and it and the start of the British summer this year was really not good so I went down there hoping it was you know it needs to be less than 16 so I was hoping 15 would be nice it was 13 and from two hours in I was freezing freezing cold I had pain in my actual hip flexors which I've never had before and that was because I'd done a 50k run the day before so I've tried to build into the training this year doing a long run followed by those long swims and I've come across some different problems and hip flex stiffness in the hip flexes has been the main problem right so let's talk about that now um training for a channel swim is an ordeal on its own a lot of time and number of hours spent in the water but you've got the addition of trying to run three not quite just under three marathons and cycle 200 miles so um that's a bigger puzzle to try and work out isn't it so do you have do you have different weeks when you're focusing on certain things or do you try and get swim back and run in every week so as I said Simon I've been doing triathons for over 30 years and I've always just been self-coached I've done done things by feel I've got no background in coaching but it's got me through up to Ironman and this year for this challenge I thought I'm going to get a coach because I don't even know how to approach this the you know I trained myself for a channel swim but how do you add in that dynamic of training for an ultra run that's quickly quickly followed by a channel swim so working with a guy JC John Cowell applied triathlon and he's he's took a lot of that worry out of my mind so to be honest with you I haven't thought about the training load too much but he has done some weeks where we've been more focused on the swimming um some weeks more focused on the running but as we've got to the latter stages of the program we've really focused on doing the big weekends where most weekends we try and get me doing a long run on the Friday maybe sometimes into the Friday evening then we'll do the long run on the long swim on the Saturday and then follow that with a cycle on the Sunday so just try and get into that routine of doing the same order that I'll be doing in the event so that we we kind of figure out what problems come up yeah you're not a full-time athlete though are you so you've got a focus around work and you've got two two young daughters so do you have to be mindful of the family as well that has actually been the biggest challenge so I'm glad that JC's took the hassle out of planning the training diaries so training twice a day most days and then the weekends have built to be very big so I've been hitting like 25 hour training weeks which is just it's quite difficult when you're working a full-time job and then yeah two young daughters 11 and 14 to look after that's what grandparents are for all right Dave yeah happily I'm quite a distance away so I don't get cold up on too often I presume you've got other grandparents on your wives side Paul yeah I mean we we've got a great set family and friends so that's been really key to training for this you know my dad and part have come down for a week a couple of different weekends where it wasn't that I was going away I was just training so and the same with my father-in-law and mother-in-law so yeah I've had a lot of support from a lot of people which I'm very grateful for otherwise I won't even make the start line how do you fuel yourself during the week are you just eating everything you can or do you still have to be careful with that um so my diet was a bit slapdash before to be honest you know I didn't compete I'm at a high level you know I'm around well my PB for I was like a 1056 so respectable but you know I'm not at the front of the park so this year nutrition was something else you know I thought right I get myself a coach I'll look at my nutrition so I saw a nutritionist and she helped me work out you know the amount of calories I need to be in training so we've got high and low days and I couldn't be in anywhere between four and a half and five and a half thousand calories in an average training day the challenge with it Simon really is getting the calories in on the longest day so the ones where I'm doing an ultra run are a very long swim you you need to take in a lot of calories and that's something that I've really been practicing over the last year taking on nutrition and there's a big there is a big conundrum here isn't there and it's not like a big let's call it a compromise because when you swim the channel you're not doing it with a wet suit you're you're trying to obviously when you swim this it'll be an official channel crossing if you do it because you're not wearing a wet suit you are allowed to wear a wet suit as part of the arts to arts challenge but then it wouldn't be ratified by the channel swimming association is that right yeah exactly Simon yeah so oh go on yeah the the reason why I chose to do that's Simon is well my body composition so you know I'm a larger triathlete when I swam the channel in 2020 I actually put on it's probably 10 kilos I was around 100 kilos then I'm about 60 foot so you know you put on some body fat to help you keep warming the channel I've lost some of that now I'm not down a really lean race plate but I'm about 89 kilos probably where I want to be for a balance of staying warm but also you know if I was 100 kilos trying to run 87 miles now I'd knock on my knees well that was what I was trying to allude to there was that there's a real compromise between having the body fat so that you are comfortable and you just don't get hypothermia in the water but also then being kind to your body for for running and cycling as well to some it's dead because it's not a flat route from the coast of Paris is it it's funny because I've driven that route so many times down the M20 and you never noticed the hills on the motorway the route the route that Edgar Ettie's planned that's down the A20 which is pretty much parallel man there's some hills there's one that goes up for like five miles near Bran's hatch and they're not steep hills but when you're running that distance over you know 18-20 hours it's certainly going to feel them and there's a big one actually out of folks and so 80 miles in there's a big steep hill to get you over the final cliffs to Dover but it's not just the up hills is it when when you're heavier it's the down hills that really take the toll on your knees and your hips and your back yeah yeah so I think I've hit a weight where I'm comfortable me and my coach are happy and at the beginning of the program I kept saying to him I want to lose I want to lose weight JC I want to I want to be faster on the running and he said the amount of training I'm going to have you doing your weight will naturally settle out as something that's appropriate and it has happened it's just took 48 weeks to train into settle down and any other peripheral training to keep you in good shape you mentioned having a tight hip flexor seven do a lot of mobility to make sure that after you've done all that cycling and running that you're still able to maintain a decent streamline position yeah exactly that and that's the reason why I had a coach because I hate strength and conditioning and mobility exercises I've never done any of that so I got through Ironman just by doing the swim bike and running that I like actually I'd wake up in a day and I'd just decide what I was going to do and now I've got at least one strength and conditioning session a week but trying to do a lot more stretching and mobility work as well and I've got into the habit of doing that this year I'm really you know I won't say I love it I'd still prefer to go and jump in the lake and swim a few laps but I'm seeing the benefits of the strength and conditioning stuff and you know when you do it training twice a day every day if you don't do it you soon realize the next day you're too tight and you're an idiot not not to do it the previous day you'll trust me Paul that when you get to the same age as me and your dad you'll be thankful that you've done some mobility because then it becomes more difficult to move around comfortably yeah okay so um that's the training part um let's talk about the challenge itself then so it's 72 miles of running is that right from eight eighty seven miles oh 80 I'm beg your pardon don't cut me short Simon you'll be finishing it brands hatch and not focusing on over so eighty seven miles on the run and you're aiming to do that in 20 hours then you've got to swim nominally 21 miles but of course we all know that if you watch those trackers it's never a straight line is it nobody's nobody's lucky enough to get the tides perfectly right that you get an arrow straight across the come across to to France yeah I think the massive s that I did the channel in 2020 was more like 30 35 miles I mean you can't really claim you swam that far because a lot of it's the tides moving you up and down side to side but yeah it's probably gonna be much further than 21 miles when you've swim the channel before um you said it took you 13 hours the first time is that what you're thinking it might take you this time I'm adding a little bit of contingency onto that Simon so it's I mean it's hard to gauge how much the run is going to take out of me but I'd be happy with if somebody said to me now Paul you'll swim the channel in 15 hours I'd probably take that and you look at the you know the historical results are on the website the 59 previous athletes and 15 hours is a pretty respectable time so I'd be happy with that I mean I've you know people swimming's my thing and people have always said to me have you never fancied the channel Simon honestly I just don't think I could get my head around swimming non-stop for that amount of hours and that's what we're discussing with a good friend of mine and there's people that have asked me like the training for wind at me is a very popular swim now so you know a decent swimmer can do that in five or six hours but it's it's switching you switching your mind off and people ask me how do you not get bored and yeah it's like my meditation swimming so I just completely switch my mind off relax and enjoy it so the time just passes when you think about it like that so I think that's why it's important for people to build up slowly to those kind of events rather than just diving at the deep end and you know reflecting back I'm glad I did the realist swims across the channel because it gives you an introduction and you you get you get to know whether you you actually really truly enjoy it you said that you are planning a little bit of rest in when you get to Dover but of course you are at the mercy of the weather and so what's the minimum amount of rest you think you might have in there and of course you're also at the mercy of what will happen on the run because it might not be 20 hours might it yeah exactly so we we're planning in a 20 18 to 20 hour run so we've got a little bit of contingency there in the run and then 10 hours rest I say but the rest in Dover you know you've got to think we'll get there we'll probably have a few photos we need to then get some food downers we need to get to the hotel and after some of these events you're buzzing you know the endorphins are running so it might not be nighttime it might be the middle of the day so I've got to then get to sleep I'm hoping it'll be relatively easy to fall to sleep because I'll have been running for 20 hours and then hoping for five to six hour sleep and then again we've got to wake up two hours before the swim start getting the porridge and electrolytes in maybe because there'll still be some fatigue from that run and then get to get to the boat and then the boat sails around to the start line that's all built into that 10 hours so it's not 10 hours of just resting we've got we've got some things to do but it might not be 10 hours might it the captain might you might be primed to go and then he'll say oh no not right for today then you've got to move it back 24 hours yeah exactly and I've heard that's happened to people in the past there's been athletes that've run halfway to Dover and they've been told the weather's changed and you go back home there's been big people who finish the running Dover and then they've had two or three days wait so really hoping that doesn't happen we've got one eye on dessert so there's a non-wetsuit arch to arch record I've not taught too much about it because there's so many variables it's not it's not like you're going for a hundred meter sprint record the weather's going to have an impact and so many of the factors but 69 hours is the time that Chris Sleeke set in 2019 for it as a non-wetsuit record and we've got one eye on that if everything goes to plan we think we might be close so we'll see so and that time starts from when you leave marble arch and it finishes when you get to arch tree on so any waiting around that you have is included within that time then yeah exactly the sleeping the eating the waiting you know if the weather window we get bumped as you said 12 hours for a tide that 12 hours is added on the time doesn't stop unfortunately I'm just thinking of how all of these things play out to those folks who are invested in Strava and it's like yeah yeah but it doesn't show my resting time here and all of that it's it's not quite as relevant is it it's um it's a bit of a lottery to be honest and that's why as it gets closer now we're you know I'm watching the first thing I do every morning when I wake up is look at the wind forecast in the channel and yeah it's it's not good to look too much but you want to get a feel for when you might be going not not not knowing the start day and time adds a lot of difficulties to the taper because you don't want a taper too deep and then feel like you've lost fitness but but you do want to feel fresh on the day so it's it's a very tricky balance so once you get ashore then yeah in France did by the way do you have to carry a passport with you yeah so the the team on the boat we've all got we've all got to have passports so we're landing on the beach or the rocks and i'll then celebrate with whoever comes to greet me I think there will be a few people at the side but then I actually have to make my way back to the boat you're not allowed to enter France but I just turn up on a beach fully enough so I go back to the boat and then we have about an hour an hour and an hour and a half sail around to Calais and then we have to enter the port show our passports and the team who were joining me on the bike ride then we'll get off of the boat and we're gonna check into a hotel and you know i'm gonna be covered in Greece and salt and get a very quick shower is the plan maybe a power nap get some food and then self on the bike as fast as possible yeah I'm thought of that coming ashore on the beach not quick not like a normal triathlon when you get a run at the beach and into a little transition area they've set it for you covered in Greece and then a bit of sand where you've fallen over and your legs are a bit unsteady and you've got like a piece of sandpaper and then trying to get onto your bike there's a little bit more to it than that isn't it yeah exactly so there's all those logistical challenges we've been planning out in a spreadsheet and they've got a team of 10 people helping me with this event it's crazy the magnitude yeah I've spoken to quite a few people and one of my previous podcast guests in a few weeks back has just finished the Transcontinental Cycle Race um which took him i probably shouldn't mention this paul because you were that that might be your next challenge you wanted to but he he's just finished that he took him 13 days to do but he said actually one of the most enjoyable parts for him was the logistics and the planning um do you find that you've you've you've um you've got an enjoyment out of that are you doing letting other people do it for you i don't know but that's pretty good at that so we went up for a simulation weekend in Windermere and he took care a lot of of the logistics you know we we did a 70k run followed by a 27k swim in Windermere and then a cycle part the way home to Leeds and um yeah i think i try to rely more on my team we start a spreadsheet we get on a whiteboard and put some posts it's up but i wouldn't say that i enjoy the planning aspect that much um i'm really ready to hand it over to the rest of the team to worry about now well let's talk today then are you are you project manager on this Dave well this this is a strange thing here where he told me i was going to be a project manager or logistics manager now i feel i've done a bit but i think he's done most of it himself so it's been a little bit modest about his organ I've i've met JC i've met some of the other team we've got a call this afternoon my coach and my dad and we're going to go through the spreadsheet this afternoon but i've had a lot of input from other people on it and i'm i'm pleased we're going to go through it this afternoon because at this morning time as logistics manager i've got a clue what's going on just as long as you've got the food for the boat today when you're not on the food you know you know me the show you're listening to right now and all of my others that provide you with amazing real-life advice and guidance from top coaches athletes and successful humans well making it takes me a lot of time but i feel it's well worth it and all in the name of helping you to improve your health longevity and performance and all i ask in return is this please send a link to this podcast to somebody you know who you think will benefit and if you haven't done so already please click follow this podcast on whatever platform you're listening to right now so that you don't miss any of our future episodes thank you let's get back to the show it's the swim where everything could go wrong really you know yeah in the in the run you can stop you can even put out a bed at the side of the road and sleep it's the swim where people fail so knowing that my dad's joined me on three previous channel swims and he's got it he's got a reel he's going to you know like a fishing reel he's going to throw a bottle of carbohydrate electrolyte drink he's got a fishing net where he'll be feeding me half bananas flat draft bites energy gels so he's the man who's going to get me across the channel swim so i'm not going to get any concern there and of course because it's a channel swim and it's going to be gratified and you have to have somebody from the channel swimming association that sits on the boat makes notes and make sure that you adhere to a particular set of rules that make it an okay swim which still has to be ratified just getting ashore doesn't guarantee that it's going to be okay does it as a channel swim yeah the correct set of the channel will pull the traditions of i think it was William Webb did this i don't know it was about a hundred years ago now at navy captain so no near pre standard set speed uh who's only one swim heart nothing near preening the swim heart and then um yeah just flashing lights on you um heart on your backside so that we can see you whilst you're swimming through the dark but yeah there's you can't use anything that gives you an extra benefit in terms of warmth or speed and you're not allowed to touch the boat no you have to swim beside or um is it beside the boat you can't go behind it can you yeah beside the boat is what we've done the last three times and then you know with that white board he's got it'll hold that up and say five minutes to the next feed and then you know you edge slightly closer but you got to be very careful not to touch the boat because as you say there's an official observer on board and you can't touch the boat and when the feed comes over we've got a 25 meter piece of reel and you you realize how fast the tide is moving at that stage because you start to the minute you stop swimming you start drifting away from the boat at a hell of a rate so this 25 meter reel doesn't last very long i can remember when we did the relay that you know i only got to chance to swim once because we there was six of us and we got through i think three we all did one rotation and then the first three swimmers got us to um got us to france but i remember swimming along thinking well it was it felt like there was a bit of a swell but the boat was like a cork bobbing up and down one minute it looked like it was almost tipping towards me and the next minute and i got a real admiration for the pilots and the and the folks who actually are navigating the ship and managing the tide and also you're swimming along and then next minute there's a huge great big cargo ship passing 100 a few not 100 but a few hundred meters in front of you so you then get a sense of the fact that you're in this really really busy shipping lane yeah yes i mean that was pretty scary i mean i remember the last time we got fairly close to some big tankers i mean it makes for a cool picture but it's a little bit scary at the time and as you see them approach on the horizon you do kind of wonder how close are they going to get and then even when they've passed there's there's like a long delay for the their bow wave hitting you and then you do you do feel up for quite some time so i don't know it makes a cool photo but hopefully we'll stay away from those big tankers and dave you've done you've done this channel swim supporting before and the thing that was a real chance for our relay team and probably for you folks that are on the boat is seasickness because those they're little fishing boats out there they're not big cargo ships that are balanced on the water so they are bobbing up and down a bit and unless you've got your sea legs you know you're no good to pull if you're bent over the side throwing up on the first occasion we went across it got a bit rough as we got within three or four miles of France and people on the boat were sick i'm all right the last two crossings have been pretty calm pretty calm but you do when you're on that boat for a lot of time the next day you can still feel it in yet you see legs you know so yeah let's hope it's well it won't be too rough they won't go if it's if it's too rough but things can change in the middle you know you can get past the middle and it could pop up and down a bit okay so when you get to let's go back to France and you've you've had a little bit of a rest you've got cleaned up and you've got your bike ready and feels like that will just be a little procession into Paris then there's a couple of hundred miles that's the thing is that's what i was saying to my coach for quite early days and out of a triathlon swimming is my favorite then running and cycling is my least favorite and he's had me doing a lot more cycling than i've ever done in the past so that's built up on my legs and i'm actually enjoying cycling more now got a new bike set for this because comfy is king you know i've done Ironman on time trial bikes the time trial bike isn't coming out for this i bought a specialized roux bay and it's a lot more relaxed geometry and 30 mil tires on it so yeah it does it does feel like it'll be a procession but 180 miles is still a flipping long way on a bike especially after a ultra marathon and a channel swim so i think it'll be quite slow there'll be lots of stops for eating and drinking we're even planning in possible sleep stops along the way half an hour one hour power naps mmm i guess if you feel like you're close to the record you'll have to adjust that to plan a little bit won't you there won't be somebody stops exactly we've got a plan A and a plan B so going back to what you said earlier you know if we are delayed into over in any way for the swim by 12 hours the record will be off completely and then we'll we'll enjoy the cycle a lot more and we'll probably stop at some cafes and have some team meals and you know there's not so much pressure on time then so yeah plan A is to go for it plan B is to enjoy it so you root into Paris is that set by Edgar and the team or can you choose which way you go no the whole the whole route is planned out they share the gpx files with us so we can load them onto our garments so it's a set route and how far is it exactly then 100 180 one miles okay wow tell me something else that we haven't talked about what when you're on the boat your dad's sending you stuff over to drink how's he are you eating any solid food at all or is it all liquids yes we went up to win we went up to Windermere to practice this so my typical feeds are so carbohydrate drink 500 mils as fast as I can get down me trying to feed in 30 seconds to a minute max so carbohydrate that drink down me half a banana some like mini flapjack bites because when you start to get that hunger feeling that you stomachs empty you just need some solids they do quite well and then some energy gels i've started using these vella forte they're a vegan energy gel and like little pocket rockets these things high caffeine and there's a coffee flavor one that i love so energy gels in there and then towards the end when i get bored of all of those food stuffs sometimes he was throwing some jelly babies out there just as a little treat so but bananas flapjack bites and energy gels along with a carbohydrate drink that's gonna get me most of the way you're getting not getting a good old melton moeb report pie or anything then i mean that i mean melton moeb report pie and a beer is a favorite diet but i've not had so much of that this year how do you you've mentioned that he's got this fishing rod with a line on it how do you get solid food across on that is it just a question of it hanging there when you've got to time the bobbing up and down with the waves and the and the fishing line so the the technique we've got is he throws the bottle first because that's easier to catch and then he gets closer as i get closer hopefully grab from a fishing net so like a kid's fishing net that you take to the beach a couple of quid from the market just you know half a banana or flapjack so i've got to swim because he drifting you're quite right it's tricky i've got to swim back to wherever my dad sat on the side of his bow grab the food and then stuff it in and sometimes do a bit of backstroke you know it's a bit harder to eat the flapjack than a banana so i'll do do a bit of backstroke so that we're not drifting backwards must eat it you know do backstroke whilst eating skill set in itself dave yeah so it's a it's a net it's a net rather than a fishing line okay we're going to get him on the barbell of a fishing hook are you allowed to touch that um net then you can't grab hold of it and use it for stability at all because that is considered cheating i mean it's everybody's drifting in it's the whole thing's emotion so we've got it down to a fine art but i just literally grabbed the food out of it very quickly it sounds as complicated as docking the space shuttle it's tricky but we've done it enough over the years now that we were a good team and it is a team event this whole thing really um so it is mostly sports nutrition throughout then or are you eating once you're on the particularly on the bike where it's easier are you eating real food then will you have it will you treat yourself to a sandwich or a bit of pizza or are you going to stick to the no no so for the run and the cycle we're going to try and eat some normal products because this is one of the things that's different from Ironman you know for an Ironman i just use sports nutrition the whole way through but the following day you know the effects you know you still might be a bit churning but you don't care because you've finished an Ironman the previous day so the ultra marathon the 87 miles to Dover we're going to eat as much plain white carbs as i can without upsetting my stomach so you know just playing cheese and ham sandwiches some pasta with a bit of pesto when i can because i can't wake up ready for a channel swimming with my stomach already churning and then you know what on the bike i've seen people stopping by that stage you're bored of sports nutrition so i've seen people stopping for McDonald's you know on the route into Paris which it sounds absolutely crazy but i could see it's doing that yeah i don't think it's called the McDonald's is it it's what did they call it it's a royale that's right yeah when they were in pulp fiction it's called a double cheeseburger yeah the cycle we really don't know what's going to happen we don't know how i'm going to feel by that stage but you know well the team around me there'll be two cars with two groups of people and we'll just get whatever food i want at that point in time are you on main roads mostly then when you're cycling or are there quiet country roads for you for your safety yes i went to wrecking the course and i was really pleasantly surprised nice smooth tarmac country like the kind of the equivalent of our 80 roads but the quieter because the through country side tarmac smooth it's a rolling route there's no massive hills but they were fairly quiet country roads when i cycled them so it's a really nice room i didn't do the bit into Paris i've heard that's where the logistical challenges come when you're 20 30 miles out from Paris and the traffic gets really heavy we're expecting some hold-ups because at that point for safety i have to stay alongside the car so i can actually be slowed down by the car in the final few miles not like you would be doing the leads then riding it riding down in between the traffic to get to the front of the queue at the lights yeah unfortunately not so we've got we've got to build that into our plan if we are close to the record we've got to expect that towards the end of the cycle we're actually going to slow down due to the traffic i mean dave coming back to you there must be a bit of paternal protection involved here you're watching Paul do this and you're helping him and you're there to assist him and try to make life easier for him but at the same time this isn't without risk is it so how do you balance out those thoughts as you go along absolutely on the on the training weekend that we did a month ago in windermere that Paul's already talked about i drove him up there and on the way one of the conversations was you know i am quite concerned i've been worried about you wondered whether it's a good idea and we talked that through and going up the m6 he kind of talked me through it a little bit but what happened on that weekend was i saw what happened i saw him do 70k i fed him all through the run on the Saturday 70k he did just what he's hoping to do in dover ex-unpaster went to bed slept five hours then swam all day in windermere came out of windermere a little bit cold he wasn't cold in the water but when he got on land he was a bit cold we drove to curby longsdale he said he felt shocking as he got on the bike but he went and did 30 30 miles to just outside skipton at 15 miles an hour and he said he felt better than than he did at the start of the cycle next morning is the last part of the story he slept at my house that that night and i said how do you feel and he said i felt worse after a marathon that's a well the main question now is could you cycle all day if you wanted to and he just went yeah so he it was action to speak louder than words he gave me the words on the m6 didn't convince me but the actions over that weekend seeing how well did prepared have convinced me that he's got a really good shot on this and i mean you're putting you're putting your body through a lot hit a pole do you do you have medical checkups before you started training and during the race and do you have a medical support on on the actual event itself no medical support on the event itself but i've had some checkups this year i've actually you know during the 48 weeks training plan i've had a few issues nothing major you know sinus issues kept me out the pool for a few weeks so i've had some checkups along the way and then for the channel swim you'll know this time and you have to have a medical examination by gp and get that signed off so i've had that done and i'm feeling the best shape of it i'm 40 and i'm feeling the best shape of our lives so i've done a couple of events in france so i know that if if it's if it's an organized French event you actually have to supply them with a an ecg readout don't you is is this considered a friendship mentor a british event uh no it's a british event and i think the ecg is flagged on the channel swim form but it's only if you've got any medical history so i didn't have an ecg or anything like that all right okay dave what scares you the most then we've talked about you your concerns at which poll is elade with his performance but have you still got any part of it which scares you uh no nothing's nothing's scary uh there's just uh he wasn't too fatigued when he got within 400 meters of the french course last time but he hadn't done 80 miles off speed uh and that's that's the bit that i'm sure is a concern to pollal how will he feel if they if they say you're gonna have to push hard here for next half hour uh because you know it was tough for him last time he was within it was within what way the pool would have been 10 minutes of the cost and he took him another 90 minutes uh you know uh so that's that's a little bit of concern once he's on the bike uh he can cycle easily fast enough to get get to paris in 18 hours which is what would if if if we're blessed with the weather uh then he can have a good shot at the record but had you heard from him you could once you get knocked by one tide that's 12 hours gone so yeah Paul what about you um what's it sounds like i mean it sounds like you've spent a lot of time preparing yourself mentally for this but there must be still something that's making your heart rate jump a bit um i think my heart's gonna keep beating hard till i get to the start line and i think once we start um i spoke to the organizer and you know i've done a lot of wrecking into the course and he just reassured me he's like Paul if you turned up in London tomorrow with a pair of trainers and shots and t-shirt you'd make it to Dover and he said that to me i'm like yeah because i've done it self-supported a lot of the routes so i'm trying to stay calm about that but it is the aspect that my dad does said then you know i've never ran 87 miles and followed it with a 15-hour swim so it's the complete unknown but that that's why i'm doing the event isn't it at the end of the day i'm not 100% certain i'm gonna finish so that's what excites me but it also scares me as well so you mentioned that's why you do an event what was it what's that then why because it's scary because it's there or because you've always done triathlon you've done Ironman and this is sort of like the next logical step upwards in your mind yeah i mean you know ultimately i love triathlon i've been doing it 30 years since the days of Leeds Bradford tri so i love what i do and even if i wasn't training if for anything i'd be going out running and swimming you know every other day so but then the bit that floats my boat the why is i've just got this strange addiction now over the years that has grown to doing events where you it's not just the physical aspect it's the mental can you get through it and i think it was that with the channel it's been that with ultramarathans when you when you're brent telling you you need to stop this it's hurting a lot and you can't do any more being having that mental strength to keep going on and continuing and get to the finish line so that's that's why i'm quite into this kind of stuff it's the mental aspects as well as the physical and yeah i honestly don't know whether i'm gonna finish this i think we've done all the training we possibly could to give it a good shot but at some points in the channel i'm gonna be shouting abuse at the people on the boat when i'm gonna be relying on my dad and my best mate who's on the boat to perk me up and shout some encouragement back at me and tell me that even though you want to quit continue give it another half hour and that's how we're going to get through it and you're also raising money for Sam Perkins charity aren't you sure i'm sure that's going to give you a little bit of motivation yeah huge amount of motivation i mean like me and my dad grew you know i grew up watching the leaves rhinos so we've all seen you know what kevin simfield and rob burrow we've done for mnd and then as i say i'm doubting him now and there's a lot of local triathlete sam purkins who just the age of 37 got diagnosed with mnd so he was just he's roughly the same age as me completely debilitating no treatment no cure for this awful disease and you know just thinking about what i do in that situation it'd be absolutely heart-breaking for everyone around you but he him and his family and his friends have started a charity in Nottingham raising money they're over a quarter of a million pounds for mnd research and they're injecting all of that funding back into medical research so i wanted to do it for a local cause and i've met the guy now and i was just amazed by his outlook on life and you know he's talking through a computer you know the visual aids he's joking with we met up and the bbc cameraman turned up to film us and sam's a knotting and forest fan the cameraman's a darby fan and he's making he's making his computer chant reds reds reds at the cameraman to wind him up he's just got this fun personality and you know optimist stick outlook on raising money and finding a cure so i just find you know that mental strength is just insane to me and i'm gonna be thinking about sam and how he's got that mental resilience and that's going to help get me through the channel swim definitely yeah well sam's a regular figure or what's a regular figure at outlaw events in fact i had sam on a podcast a couple of years ago when he was doing his half-out law charity and he was had a team of people that were helping him to go around the lake we adapted the course a little bit so he could do that and he told me how you know being diagnosed with his condition and he'd done the outlaw a couple of years before and then he felt tired and you know it was just that went from being super healthy to having this awful disease and it is a heartbreaking story but also uplifting when you see how how positive he is about it all despite the way in which it just so corrosive on your body and it's yeah it's horrible so exactly so and that's why i find incredible how positive he is he wants to find a cure for not himself but all the people are going to come in the future so we've just hit over five thousand pounds on the charity i'm trying to raise ten grand for him so i'm hoping we'll post the link sign when we upload this blog that'd be cool well we will i'll post it on on the podcast as well and to share it on facebook and thank you Dave yeah what training have you had to do to get in shape for this because being a Paul Knight supporting Paul you can't go asleep go to sleep at the wheel and obviously not literally but metaphorically you know there's no time for you to offer those when he needs some some fluid or some food so have you found that you've had to get fit in the chat as briefly as i can last year my daughter had a silly idea and that was you haven't done a triathlon for a bit doubt well no 19 years well why don't you do the wood oil spare sprint triathlon i did last year so i had to get down from a a top weight of 19 stone to something like 17 and the run was a bit of a walk but i managed it so thinking if at 68 years old i can go a few minutes faster this year at wood oil spare i will do so i've done a little bit of training i've lost a bit more weight and i'm still too strong above my ideal half iron man rate but you know i've just s health they do lots of walking and sleep wise i can power up so there'll be plenty of times downtime when i'm waiting for Paul on the run or i'm waiting for him on the bike when i'll be able to get my head down so i think one good sleep at uh one good sleep at Dover when i'm with Paul after the run that will kill me it will get me through the next 38 40 hours i've supported folks on ultra races and i think you know i'm sure Paul hasn't but a lot of people underestimate just how fatiguing it is mentally and physically to support someone because you're trying to you're trying to second guess what they might need you know when Paul's in a bad mood because he's going through a bad time you're having to try not to bite back and sort of you know give him a sarcastic mark you've got to try and keep your spirits up when things aren't going well you're trying to keep his energy up and his energy levels you've got to be you know you could have a power now but equally you don't want to miss him coming you don't want to him to arrive at a feed point and not be ready for him so um it's very very fatiguing isn't it he's got yeah he's got his best friend who is mentioned already Sam on the boat Sam shouts for 13 hours and i'm there just saying go on Paul i give him a wave every now and then but because Paul Paul's got a one uh he's got a problem with one here so he has a very heavy duty ear plugging the near side to the boat so he can't actually hear anything but Sam is showing go go girl all day long and he'll do it again and 10 hours in it will get on my nerves so i might be abusing Sam you know did you wear the other ear plug then you give me an idea there Simon you're quite right though you're just supporting these events he's just it's i've told all the crew that are coming with us this is not going to be fun towards the end you know i'm probably going to be heavily fatigued and grumpy so yeah it's going to be an enduring sport for the guys supporting me yeah that's why we've got three sets of teams doing each of the different legs i heard a story about a previous athlete who doesn't know how to act that when he got to the cycle he had the same two people helping him the whole way through when he got to the cycle he was having to motivate his own team rather than the other way round so that's why we've got so many people and yeah my dad will be able to power it out the others they'll be able to change over so hopefully it'll work wow just before this podcast when we're setting it up you and i were sharing a few topics to chat about and the last one that you said back to me was what next and i'm surprised you're even thinking about what might be coming next before this well the funny thing is Simon that's the main question i get asked you know what next because i think that my close family and friends who know me know that i'm a little bit addicted to this stuff you kind of got to have that addicted personality so my wife's aware of that and she doesn't think bad of me for even planning you know next next year i'll probably do an eye on that she's telling you she's not telling me so i'd like i mean i love running road marathons as well so it's going to be a lot easier for me to try you know family wise in terms of hours per week i'm not going to have to do 25 hours of training a week to run a marathon so i'm going to do a couple of marathons over the next six months after this and then also inspired by some of the great coaches that i've worked with i've never done any coaching so i'm going on an sda swimteachers association open water swimming course towards the end of the year and i'm going to dip my toes into the watering open water swim coaching because that's my biggest passion out of the three that's the thing that i love the most so it'd be cool to help inspire and teach a few people how to do channel swimming or channel relay so a couple of ideas about what i might do next dave over to you for the final word i don't think you should do any more endurance i think you should concentrate on beating my half marathon time and my swim marathon time which are my two remaining family records there you go Paul the go the goal has been thrown down the the funny thing is Simon we've got this friendly rival rimming my dad's still where you know he's 68 i'm 40 and he has still got some family records that i'm finding it very hard to beat so one of those was last year his london marathon time was 320 and he took me 60 marathons to beat that i did i did a 3 16 last year but yeah he's got a he's got a solid half marathon time and a 5k time in the pool i don't think i'm ever going to be good good there's always you need to you need to retain the upper hand dirty dave as a father i think at least one thing i'm not even going to bother attempting the 5k in the pool because i think records are meant to be broken i think he needs to be left with ward well listen Paul thank you for sharing all this with us dave it's lovely to catch up with you again we must do it a bit sooner next time than 30 odd years or 20 odd years Paul very best of luck on the challenge whenever it starts and now we're in the hands of the weather gods and i'd love to invite you back already to come and tell us about the whole experience however it works out and whatever happens i'd love to catch up and find out what actually transpired once you get going yeah that that'd be great Simon thanks for having me on the show good to see you after so many years and yeah i'd just like to thank everybody who sponsored me so far so um we'll share the just giving link but yeah over 5 000 pounds so many people have been so generous for this m&d cause i really appreciate it and yeah we'll talk again after the event we you might not want to do it Paul but i'll thank you in advance all the people who are going to respond to you as well thank you dave Paul thanks a lot um see you on the other side yeah just Simon good Simon thank you so much to Paul for taking time out of his waiting schedule to be a guest on the show this week we do wish him all the best for the event although by the time you listen to this you might actually have finished what he was doing but if you want to track his progress please look for the link that's in the show now so i make it really visible so it's easy for you to find and Paul will be back for another chat after the event and hopefully we will have good news and we'll talk about everything that ensues from the moment he's set off from marble arch to make sure you listen to all of our future episodes and don't miss one please go to iTunes search for high performance humanet triathlon podcast and then click on the subscribe button and please make sure you check out the show notes for links to all of the topics we chatted about including links to my free daily mobility plan and the link to check on Paul's progress during his enduring man event once you've finished listening to this episode please if you could share it with just one person you think might benefit that would be amazing and if you've got a couple more minutes to spare perhaps you could leave me a review on your chosen platform that's all for this week i'll have another great guest in seven days time and i hope you'll be able to join me but until then happy training and enjoy the rest of your day.
