(upbeat music) Hey folks and welcome to the Daily Ratings Podcast. It's a show we're each week. We're gonna be sitting down with Mr. Vincent Daly to get his thoughts on the latest movies he's been watching. Both older films and new releases. And don't worry, there's no spoilers. Vince will give a brief review of the movie, share some thoughts, and of course, then rate the film. Daily ratings are always fair, honest, and most importantly, they're consistent. On today's show, Vince will be rating and reviewing. We have Pee Wee's Big Adventure, Beetlejuice, Edward Scissors Hands, Mars Attack, and finally new release, now in theaters, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. All five films are directed by Tim Burton. So we've got a spooky and weird episode here for you folks. Let's see what Vin has to say about it. Let's dive into it. Stay tuned and enjoy the show. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Mr. Vincent Daly, how we doing buddy? - Tommy Boy, how's it going? - It's going okay. On this side of the table, you gave us a Tim Burton week. How was it? (laughing) - Well, I thought it was an all right week until the new release that is, and I feel like I'm gonna be on my own little island of hating the new movie, because it's doing very well in the box office. - I texted you, what was it? Last night I texted you, I could not believe when I looked at how it did this week. - Yeah, yeah. - Second, best opening in September of all time. - Wow, wow, unreal, unreal. But yeah, I really wasn't taking the new movie despite some critical praise and doing good in the box office. - I thought it was gonna tank, honestly. - Yeah. - I did not think it was gonna do well at all. - Absolutely. Just because, I don't know, was it 34 years? I mean, that's really pushing the upper end of what these legacy sequels are after, so. - I mean, yeah, I guess the parents wanted to go, yeah, because it's multi-generational now. So the kids can go see it, and there's, I don't know, I guess the original one had quite a following to it, but. - Of course. - It all blew way past me. I never got on this train. - Yeah. - Never got on the beautiful train. - Glad we're covering it though. I mean, original Beetlejuice, really great, excellent. I was excited to look at a lot of these films, because I mean, we've danced around some Tim Burton already on the show, both in reviews of his movies. We did Nightmare Before Christmas, which he's connected to, and of course, Charlie in the Chocolate Factory. Mainly through that stop motion special that I adore, that hits on everything that Tim Burton is about, especially connected to Ray Harryhausen. So a lot of roots that we can kind of tie back to here. - Yeah, well, I don't really know what to expect here today. I'm excited to hear about these. Two were on the site already, early, early ones. So we're gonna see how those actually fare. And it'd be good to cover them, finally. Any opening notes, or should we dive right into it? - No, I think that's good. We can dive right into it. - Okay, well, we're jumping back to 1984. This is Pee Wee's Big Adventure. Do you have a relationship with this film growing up? - No, no, and I've never seen this all the way through. Also, not a huge Pee Wee fan. I feel like Pee Wee is something that I've kind of respected over the years when I've learned more about him. But I feel like growing up in our generation, Pee Wee was lumped into, oh, that pervert, that got caught in a porno theater. So that was definitely my kind of assumption for Pee Wee for a while. But as, you know, grew up, Paul Rubens, I think he's a good actor. And I, you know, think there's an interesting story here to tell around Pee Wee of how it was created, so. - Yeah, why don't you start there, kind of break it down. Let's see how you liked it. - So it might seem odd to jump into the history of Pee Wee Herman within this Tim Burton episode, but it encompasses a whole bunch of first for nearly everyone involved. And important to note that though this movie came before the popular show, the routine has an even deeper roots connected to it. Pee Wee Herman was an improv character developed by Paul Rubens while he worked at the Groundlings, an LA comedy club that launched many comedic careers over the decades. Originally the routine had a dirty sexual spin to it, catering to the adult audiences coming to those shows. - Interesting. - And something that definitely wouldn't help Rubens eventual controversy either, kind of tying into that. But in 1981 was given a whole HBO special that pushed Rubens into popular culture. And eventually we see this movie being made and as well his show being made for children's programming, Saturday morning stuff. By the mid 80s Rubens had been developing a tone down version of the character alongside Groundlings alum Phil Hartman, Rest in Peace, Rest in Peace. - And Paul Rubens. - Yeah, Paul Rubens, Rest in Peace. When they wrote a simple, simple script about Pee Wee's immense love of a bicycle and the rest is history. Like I said though, this is the origin for nearly all of the talent involved. While this might lack the iconic goth style of Tim Burton's other projects, it's a great demonstration of his love of working with wild sets and how loose his films can feel for some times, you know, for better or worse. We'll definitely cover almost every end of Better Hurt Wars when now loses films feel. Maybe more importantly though, at least for my kind of care about this film and is the debut soundtrack for Danny Elfman who will compose the music for all five of our movie slots this week, side by side with Burton. My biggest takeaway is that for this week, there was so many examples of how the both of them shaped so much of the 90s with their work. But Danny Elfman specifically really kills it right out of the gate with a soundtrack that matches every ounce of goofiness that Pee Wee brings with him. You know, I feel like, I don't know what are your thoughts on the Danny Elfman, like Batman '89 and whatnot, very bombastic score. He's not, I'm not the biggest fan of his stuff but I feel like he fits, he does the genre really well. - Right. - I guess so, I guess it's just not my most favorite genre. - Yeah, yeah. - So even like the original, I did watch the original Beetlejuice and it's like this, yeah, from the get go in that opening shot where the camera's kind of going over the town and stuff and it's just his music going. - Yep, yep, yep. - It's like, ah, this is it. This is totally like he's getting the mood, the vibe down of this place. - Yep, yep. - It's hard for me to be super excited about it. (laughing) - It's not your bad girl. - I get to appreciate it, yeah. (laughing) - Yeah. Well, when it comes to Pee Wee, it is a, we got a big bike movie here. Had me thinking we should have done this in motorcycle week because of how many bikes are in this. Pee Wee's Big Adventure is a comedy road trip film and though it was before the Saturday morning version of the show, designed for kids, it's still an innocent family adventure. It works a lot like that. Pee Wee loves his bike more than life itself. Cherry Red, Swin Bicycle, that is the envy of his whole neighborhood and mostly this attracts compliments as Pee Wee is really loved by all, except for a really one bully that tries to hire a thief to steal it. In utter obsession to get his bike back, he goes on a big adventure across the US, counting all walks of life that equally love Pee Wee Herman. You know, obviously this movie would be the predecessor, but in a lot of ways, reminds me of the SpongeBob movie, where it's just about throwing the character in as many environments as they can. - Yeah. - You know, the character's gonna be goofy no matter what. So let's just like switch up the environment to, you know, see how he reacts to this. - And having enough. - Yeah, having enough expanded adventure where you feel like you're actually getting a feature film. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, but I think really this works best, not really in that road trip plot. It works best when Pee Wee's in his hometown for one reason or another. You know, while the town isn't filled with weirdos like Pee Wee, we get a lot of funny side characters for Ruben's to play off of during that section. It's been said before, but Pee Wee works best when the world around him accepts him for who he is. And it lets Ruben's be just a total Looney Tunes character come to life. It's not bothering with, you know, getting bogged down with, you know, people being weirded out by Pee Wee. Everyone just accepts it for what it is. - I was just writing down. Were you not weirded out at all? - I was gonna ask you that later. - I think that's the great part about this is that the movie sells that the world accepts Pee Wee for the absolute weirdo freak is. - Yeah, I don't accept him. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know, in addition to production reasons, I think centralizing the eventual show, Pee Wee's Playhouse, works because here it has the most visual comedy packed into each scene. I feel like more and more as this movie went on, I just kind of got tired of the Pee Wee stick, even though it was being refreshed with different environments and whatnot. Where it works is in those opening moments where he's in his own environment and maybe just dipping out and riding his bike around town, but everyone loves Pee Wee. So the film kind of sells that. We get some nice iconic Tim Burton design in this and might be worth checking out if you don't dig his usual spooky spin to things. The flashes into stop motion will have huge improvements made for our next film, but it's in the set design overall that was the star here. Look no further than the all-time classic Rube Goldberg machine made for the breakfast scene early in the movie. And you will see just how much Tim Burton is a master at taking imagination and making a real set out of it. Pair this with some of the most scrambling music probably ever composed by Danny Elfman. And you can see why the two were just such a powerhouse working together. I really did enjoy the scene. It's an all-time classic. And overall, just throughout the whole career, they are such a pair that were made for each other. I think it's like over like 24 films they work together. That's crazy, that's crazy. And they really do, I mean, they are meant for each other. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, there's just something there that in the sets of this, and I'll make a kind of a similar note with Edward Scissorhands that because they're not overly gothic, they're overly in Tim Burton's wheelhouse. I feel like there's some extra credit I want to give to still having these like cartoonish, larger than life vibes to these set works. Like I will say to all of these early films this week, you can see this is such a predecessor. This is such a foundational work to what will come in the 90s. What will come in the early 2000s? When it comes to like early set work like this, I mean, it feels like so much is chasing it. Mainly those like Dr. Seuss films from the early 2000s try to chase the similar kind of bombastic design and why I'm freaked out by those films too. I can't watch 'em, I think I'm so on. This is like a fear, this is a, it's an uncomfortability. I'm so uncomfortable with these films. I've seen this before, and then like I've seen Edward Scissorhands before as well, so I don't feel like I need a refresher. Sure. And it's just funny you bring up that Dr. Seuss, I can't, I just can't. I take one with the kids' faces, with the weird faces with the noses, but I just, there's something so-- Uncanny. Yeah, and uncomfortable. And yes, it's not, it's not a safe space for me. (laughing) All right, well, you know, we'll add this just nebulously in horror movies, like you can't-- They are, these are horroristic to me. There's something really creepy to these films that I just, it's, they're not scary. But it's terrifying. It's terrifying. Right, right. It's unnerving, it's incredibly unnerving. Wow. That's the best word, unnerving. That's what doesn't work for you. Pee-wee Herman, even a little bit of Edward Scissorhands, too. Really, really? Oh, wow, okay. Well, I mean, listen, I think that's exactly what Tim Burton is going for. (laughing) So, yeah, just not his client. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he's the one that maybe he wants to, you know, you're the one that he wants to upset. It's exactly right. Now, folks, I highly recommend watching this in a so bad it's good fashion, even though the movie isn't outright horrible. I don't think this is a bad movie. I think, like, most overly silly comedies, this is probably gonna be worse work best by not taking it too seriously at all. Yeah. And maybe even laughing at it occasionally, which I feel like the movie is probably all right with. Also, potentially a very odd entry into a boy's watch compilation on this side. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. All say, all say is I personally watching this with a few of my buddies, we could not get over how much this works as a Joker origin story. (laughing) Which was just like so endlessly entertaining (laughing) watching this, but yeah, other than that, rest in peace, Paul Rubens, and give Peewee some love. We're gonna go ahead and give Peewee's Big Adventure 1985 A64. Okay, '64, a good movie right there. Yeah. That's what that is. I think it holds up in a lot of ways and maybe in your boat, can even get you past some of that uncanny aspect to Tim Burton's style. Honestly, it's crazy for what this movie is and like what it's about, and how the crazy character of Peewee Herman, the fact that this is getting a 64% actually is very impressive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of shocking. I agree, I agree. I really haven't seen this one before. Like I said, but. I could have sworn I've watched this with you before. Oh, really? Yeah, but I guess not. No, no, no, yeah. And like I said, I think even there was an uphill battle with me, just like, I know like Paul Rubens and what he does over his career, but I'm really not sold on Peewee. And I think, again, there's something to the world just accepting Peewee. Like the movie doesn't get gum down. The driving force of, you know, next comedy scene. Next comedy scene. It's in, like it's all in. Exactly, exactly. Okay, so Peewee's Big Adventure 64%. Wow, okay. All right, so Paul Rubens, by the way, I don't, it's not that I'm not a fan. I'm like, who is this guy? What else is he in? I mean, he's in one episode, everybody loves Raymond. And then they recast him. What a callback. And then they recast him and they recast somebody else. They're like, who let him in the door? Someone didn't like that. It's a Scrammy Store episode. Good episode, but, okay, if you know what I mean, like a dude, that would be our special for our 200th episode. You do a deep dive of everyone loves Raymond. (laughing) Can you name another Paul Rubens property? I don't have the top of my head, no. All right, so maybe not that memorable. By the way, I said that was 84. It was actually 85, it came out. So we're three years jumping ahead now. This is directly his next film, correct? Yeah. 1988's Beetlejuice. And like I said, I watched it. Why don't you set it up? We'll take it back and forth. 'Cause I have some, this movie was, I have not seen this before. Okay. It wasn't necessarily what I thought it was going to be. Oh, really? Yeah. So let's get into it, take it away. Yeah, well folks, this is a foundational movie for what will become popular in the '90s, both for the kind of ghost family story structure, or kind of story arc, but also the stylistic vibe that will cement Tim Burton in Hollywood. This is Pre-Casper, Prematilda, Pre-Ann's family movie. Beetlejuice is not only one of the first to experiment with a mix of family-friendly horror, but still might be one of the best to boots. Every time I come back to this, without a doubt, what works best is the strong hook to the story around ghosts failing to be scary. And I feel like that works so much more than even Beetlejuice himself than Michael Keaton. It's that simple hook that the sequel desperately needed, kind of a toned down story that lets us kind of step in the shoes of this couple, but still be in the world of Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice is the spooky comedy that wrote the book on how to do it when a cute newlywed couple crosses over to the afterlife, and they find themselves attached to their mortal home now filled with unwanted guests, frustrated with their ghostly inability to get them to leave, and they seek help from the afterlife's leading bioexorcist Beetlejuice. But when the film's young daughter Lydia starts to see ghosts of the house, our couple has to turn their plan around, but before they know it, it is too late to put Beetlejuice back in the cage. I think when I return to this movie, and always when I think about this movie, I remember Gina Davis and Alec Baldwin. They are my favorite part about this film, and I feel the exact same after watching this again. I don't even know how many times I've seen this. - Really? - Yeah, yeah. - We have never talked about it. - Yeah, I think again, it was growing up liking Adam's family. - I was gonna say, this is very Adam's family. - Yeah, Casper, Matilda, it's these, maybe, I don't know, slightly alt-type of '90s family comedies, spooky kind of comedies, supernatural comedies. Yeah, I'm trying to think what else is kind of, but it is, especially growing up in the '90s, I feel like there was a lot of this kind of-- - There was that kid show-- - Focus, focus evens. - Goosebumps. - Oh, absolutely, absolutely. - Are you afraid of the night or whatever? - Are you afraid of the night or are you afraid of the dark? Yeah, are you afraid of the dark? - That sounds like a bad, Batman comic car. You're afraid of the night. (laughing) But I can't stress enough that I think this movie works because of how cute the idea is of this couple trying to, and failing at being ghosts, you know? It doesn't even work for what ultimately the sequel will think is the main characters of Beetlejuice and Lydia would known a writer. I think this works so well because Gina Davis and Alec Baldwin, there's a fun problem solving of like, hey, yeah, what if you were a ghost all of a sudden? How would you haunt someone? You wouldn't know how to do these things, and that is such a wonderful entry way into discovering the world of Beetlejuice, the afterlife. - And that's what surprised me the most. When I say this movie was something that I wasn't quite expecting, it was the heaviness, the heavy amount of time spent on Gina Davis and Alec Baldwin. - Yeah, almost to the point, like Michael Keaton gets shafted in his own movie. - I was halfway through the film and I'm just like, so when do we see Beetlejuice in Beetlejuice? - Absolutely, absolutely. - Quick question too, when did Alec Baldwin become Alec Baldwin because he is not Alec Baldwin yet in this film? - Oh, you think, interesting. - He's too skinny, I'm waiting to get like, he gets a little bit filled out a little bit, and then we get Alec Baldwin. I was trying to think maybe it's, oh my God, if I can't believe it. Glungarian, Glung Ross. - Oh, right, right, yeah. - Is that like nine or two-ish or something? - Definitely early '90s. - He starts to fill out a little bit more, you know, that's what he's just like-- - He's not Alec Baldwin yet. - He's an indistinguishable Baldwin. - You know what I mean? - Yeah, he definitely liked him in this movie, but-- - Yeah, surprisingly, and like even Gina Davis, like despite bashing her modern career with-- - Junior Davis, yeah. (laughing) - Does she have the jows, or like a big chin or something, right? Every time I hear Gina Davis wanna go, Gina Davis, something like that, I don't know. - Well, that's definitely her in whatever, blink twice or a small role in the newer movie. But yeah, I just think it is such a cute idea to have them fail at haunting this family and give such a morbid spin with Burton's vision. I love how wild and inventive the haunting transformations are. Everything connected to the afterlife, just like so charming. I love that everyone in the afterlife is just like perpetually stuck in their last moment of death, you know, whether that's like bringing along a shark or something like that. - Right. - And plot-wise, it's peak Tim Burton because it's making us empathize with this ghost couple gone too soon, something that we should normally fear, and hate the new stuck-up family from the city. That's where like I see Matilda to a tee. I see Casper, I see, you know, all these 90s films that this wrote the book on it. This was the foundational work to it. And I feel like all of those movies work, if anything, I really love to revisit Matilda. But I think those only work because Burton was able to capture something simple but effective here. And we'll see that simplicity go off the window for the new one. Might be sacrilegious to say this, but I don't usually come back to watch this for Michael Keaton. Like you said, it's like, when does it even show up? - After watching it, it makes sense. - Yeah, and definitely same ghost for Winola Ryder. Obviously this connects Keaton and Burton to do Batman '89 one year later. But Beetlejuice is a surprisingly small portion of the movie. Hear me out, I'm not saying this just to stir trouble, but I could not help but notice that every character I liked in this was missing from our legacy sequel. Like, I love Jeffrey Jones in this. I know we've talked about his criminal record and that he's completely canceled, but it's exactly what I loved about him playing the principal in Ferris Bueller. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - He's just, it's such an incredible, he's incredible at making himself look like an idiot and kind of playing that, you know, like he's not aware that he's making himself look like an idiot. - Right, right. - Obviously it's a touchy spot because he's like clearly, clearly blacklisted for, you know, some very, very bad stuff. But we'll see that actually be a stumble for the new sequel, really struggle and overcoming, you know, be him being like the dad of a family still around and them just trying to, you know, excuse after excuse of why returning cast isn't returning. - They just kill him off. - That's ultimately what they do. - Okay, is that spoiler, I'm sorry, is that spoiler? - No, no, not at all. I mean, it's ultimately what they do, but there's a weird spotlight on it that he gets a whole stop motion scene and he's actually much more of a character in the afterlife than you'd even expect. And it's just like, this is like self-inflicted wound to a T. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I just, I cannot, we'll get it. - Okay. - Look at it. I love Dick Cabot's Quick Cameo, same with Robert Goulay, just like, I don't know, it just feels very much like Tim Burton, like leaning on to like older talents. We'll see the same with Vincent Price and Edward Scissorhands. - Dick Cabot's so alive, by the way. - Oh, no way. - His voice is so good, he's 87. - Wow. - I heard him in an interview not too long ago. His voice is still like, great, still great Dick Cabot voice. He could still host a show. - Wow, wow, that's something else. Glenn Shaddix is a regular Burton pulls on. Like for instance, he is the, he's who they designed the mayor after in Nightmare Before Christmas, a very two-faced, but really just like always gets a laugh out of me in some point in this. I love the line where he says, "I know as much about ghosts as I do interior design." And then it just cuts back to just the worst like design, like this patio has like sliding on it, it's terrible. - I really do love so much about the cast and how the comedy works in this film. And again, just when I return to this film, folks, it's, ironically, I'm not hating on Keaton and Winona Ryder yet, but it's really not for them, surprisingly. I don't know, what are your thoughts there? - I don't think, well, I was watching it. I was like, man, have I ever enjoyed Winona Ryder once and anything, because this, I have seen her. It's not like Paul Rubins, but it's just like, kind of an episode of both of them. With her, I just find her annoying, and now I can say I find her annoying as a child and as an adult. - Interesting, interesting. - No, I'm definitely there for her modern acting. It's no good. - And as a kid, I mean, she's just a kid actor and you know how we feel about kid actors. - Yeah, I think in that sense, it's also another, another aspect that you see. It's just like, oh yeah, this is a template of just like, you need, if you're gonna tell this like spooky ghost family story, family comedy, the insert of, you know, a moody semi-goth teen is just kind of what happens there. - Right, right. - That's just like, you need that to tell the story through it. The visual effects in this are mostly great, but occasionally miss big, especially when you're rewatching this in modern day. For instance, I love the stop motion sandworms, especially in their like wild design. - Yeah, you know this all shoutouts impact a dune. - Oh really, he's shouting that out to dune? - I believe so, yeah. - Really interesting, interesting. At the same time, you look at those scenes and they just need some of those green screen edges cleaned up around though. It looks a little sloppy in modern day. Luckily, I think the practical effects shine the brightest because they aren't trying to be realistic and many leaning on Burton's background as an animator coming from Disney and having just like the biggest love of stop motion, possibly even bigger than me. The afterlife itself is just an awesome set on top of combining this like bureaucracy with the afterlife way before most did it. The style of all these dead peoples, like I said, cursed to live in that last final condition they were in their last moments, just makes for like a very fun spooky experience. I don't really consider this scary at all, but I think it's telling that there were a lot of kids in my theater watch for the new film. And I feel like that goes to show that even with this one being gory and grotesque spots and definitely a little scary when it comes to like how haunting the transformations can be, there's something there that this works for kids. It's just edgy enough to get kids interested. - Yeah, I mean, I really do think it's like Adam's family safe. - Yes. - And Adam's family already kind of safe in that regard. - Right exactly, exactly. - Yeah. - Speaking of what I mean, hey, shout out to everybody that's ramin' once again, Peter Boyle. (laughing) Right, isn't he in the Adam's family? - I think so. No, no, wait, wait. Peter Boyle, wait, will you play Fester? No, I think that's, what's his face from back to the future? - Nope, Peter Boyle, Adam's family. - Oh, like original? We're talking like TV? - I'm talking, I'm talking some type of, some type of Adam's family casting. - Yes, I'll yield. - I really thought you knew this. I'm sorry, I just really dragged down the... (laughing) - No, I love how much we're tying this in to, right? - Oh, he is, okay, yeah, absolutely. I don't know why I always thought that was what's his face from back to the future, but yeah, the test. - Oh wow, that looks like the guys from back, it looks like Dom. - Yeah, yeah. - 'Cause the eyes. - Yeah. - No, Peter Boyle, Frank. - Yeah, well, he's great, it's Fester. I can't wait to cover Adam's family and tell everyone I have a pinball machine of it. (laughing) - Sorry, I took it that day. - No, no, I love it, I love it. (laughing) You know, when I pitched the Tim Burton week, you weren't enthusiastic. I love that we're, we're getting something-- - Everybody loves Raymond, we're good to go. - You've got skin in the game. - Yeah, I'm tethered, I'm tethered. You bring a bond later and it's like, what a great episode. - We're golden, we're golden. (laughing) - But yeah, I think Tim Burton just, he works best while working in more PG terms, but this just rides a line of that creepiness and charming fun for the family. I think that's really where this works best. Not to give it away, folks, but this was the best of the week by far. And side by side with projects like "Nightmare Before Christmas" show that Burton works just amazingly in concepts rather than execution. I feel like if anything "Nightmare Before Christmas" is a perfect example of that as well because he's not directing it. He's just in the conceptual phase of it that gets passed to Henry Selick. Not only does this have a lightning in a bottle quality that can be seen in so many films trying to copy it in the following decade, but it's simple and effective hook makes for a great watch still today. We're gonna go ahead and give Beetlejuice 1988 a 75. - 75, that's a really good score. - Yeah, I thought, I really did enjoy this. This was one that was previously rated. It was at a 72, I think this needed a little bit of a bump to 75. - Hey, okay. - 'Cause the legend is real on this, and if anything, I needed to really praise what I genuinely enjoy about this film because the sequel just really fell short of it. - Yeah, well, good. I mean, I'm glad that you enjoyed it so much going back to it, because again, that was an early edition on to the master list and stuff. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Okay, wow, 75%, that's a good, that's a good, well, it's funny because last one was 64, I always say 65, good movie, 75, great movie, a really good movie. - Sure, sure. - Towards the direction of make some time to watch. - Right, exactly, exactly. I really liked the aspect of it of, I mean, I was not the biggest fan of the film. It's not my genre, it's not my thing. I really liked the aspect of while I was watching it, 'cause you had made the comment previously of it being the predecessor to this genre, basically. And for that, I liked it. And I liked that he was able to enter something kind of new in that other people could take inspiration from. - Absolutely, he feels in that Danny Elfman score, he hits the marks, he absolutely hits the marks, and it did bring me back to my childhood in the 90s a little bit. - Sure, sure, absolutely. - And by the way, just to bring up last week's special, when, 'cause we raised the score of Pulp Fiction, it was an 80 on the site, and you just brought it up to an 84. - Well, you mean Reservoir Dogs. - Reservoir Dogs, what did I say, yeah. - Yeah, Pulp Fiction. - Okay, yeah, yeah, Reservoir Dogs, you said it was at a 72, it was at an 80, then we pumped it to an 84, so it wasn't that bad, 'cause you were just like, I really did a dirty there. You were okay, you were the ballpark, you were the ballpark. - All right, all right, I liked that, I liked that. Five point difference, I'll take. - Okay, all right, so we're gonna keep things going, we're jumping to 1990. This is Edward Scissorhands. Like I said, I have seen this before, and have some thoughts about it, but why don't you get us into it, what is Edward Scissor's hands? And again, this is, here's the thing with Tim Burton. - Okay. - I know, I'm starting every film like I need to have to need a pretext here. - Clearly, yeah, you're getting defensive towards him. - I just think he's always mixing genres that don't usually mix. Oh, sure, that people try all the time, but like fail. - Yeah, yeah. - So it's just the thing of like, man, you look at the poster, you might watch the trailer, you might see clips of it, and it's just like, man, this looks creepy, this is like what's going on, this is like, what is that movie, not Poltergeist, but the movie with the box, and you have the-- - Oh, Hellraiser? - Yes, it's like, he looks like a Hellraiser. - He does, yes, that's actually a great poll, yeah. - And I will just say, I watched his years ago, like when I was pretty young, and I get creeped out, I'm not into this at all, and then yet somehow, I somehow, you're really connecting with it in the end, and the romance and love story in the end, and I was just like, well, he got me. - Yeah. - With that, why don't you set up Edward Scissor's hands, and then just get into it. - Well, this starts Burton's collaboration with Johnny Depp, which will continue on near endlessly with movies such as Edward, Sleepy Hollow, Corpse Bride, Sweeney Todd, Alice in Wonderland, Dark Shadows, and maybe most inflammatory of all, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. This also sees him, unfortunately continuing his work with Renoto Ryder, which only two years after Beetlejuice has become a decent bit worse in her acting, which will be a trajectory we only see sink lower for the new slot this week. Much like I spoke about with Beetlejuice setting a template for the '90s, you can see a similar effect here, not as monumental, not as impactful, similar in its goals of making a charming, empathetic angle for an otherwise horrifying character. - Yes. (laughing) - I didn't know this was gonna be like this much of a-- - I'm just not a Burton guy. - You're scared. - I'm not scared. - Say it, you're scared. - I am uncomfortable, he makes me uneasy. You know, I've been laughing so many days consecutively if you're describing Alien as a chasing thriller. That I love that so much. - That's what it is. - I think it's actually right on the money because it's like, how do you describe a horror movie? - Well, where did the scares come from? Well, Alien, you're getting chased. - People are running all the time. - Yeah. - Yeah, this thing is like lanky and chasing you, so. That's great. (laughing) - But honestly, like I said, a predecessor nonetheless, it may not be at that level of Beetlejuice, but this feels like, again, those Dr. Seuss movies from the 2000s, as poor as those could be. - Even this film feels like that to you. - Yeah, something about the sets, something about what I imagine Burton in the concept phase, his storyboarding or his sketches, and being such a translation, maybe even for worse, a little bit, to just like, let's make these sets exactly how he drew them. You know, they're Toy-esque. They are play-boss. - Yeah, what's that? - Like Halloween town-ish too. - Yeah. - Kids movie, but trying to lean into horror spooky elements. - Absolutely, absolutely. In the '90s and the early 2000s, we see a lot of heavy influences at play for the type of projects from our director, all of them usually having some sort of pop culture tie-in or nods to all their films. In many ways, this feels like Tim Burton's attempt to kind of do a Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin style, physical humor, but with his usual gothic twist, especially with how silent and how physical the comedy is with Johnny Depp. Stylistically, it mixes a lot together though, but I think it works mostly as a comedic and charming take on Frankenstein if I really had to give this like a, you know, an elevator pitch to that. Edward Scissorhands is a dark fairy tale mixed with campy nostalgia to tell the story of a freak embraced by society. Set in a throwback's 50's suburbia, filled to the brim with gossipy housewives, a new gaunt face on the block is bound to make a big stir. Diane Wiest is a door-to-door makeup saleswoman ignored by the town's wandering eyes, but skyrockets into popularity when her new guest arrives. Brought down from his gothic cathedral on the hill, Edward Scissorhands gets to learn how to be a real boy. Center spotlight for all the town's fascination. Wrapped in black leather and unwieldy nightmarish claws, everyone seems to question, how does Edward live at all? Well, little by little, his tragic backstory is revealed to us by the hands of his twisted creator, Vincent Price. Let's go. I love Vincent Price in his tower of mechanical madness. That's also another one. It's like Dick Cavitt and Robert Goulay is just like, clearly, Burton has met them at some point in his life and definitely been like the fanboy. I feel like in that interaction. And actually, I mean, Vincent Price, probably on a whole different level. I mean, Tim Burton has said like all of his favorite films are like these old like schlocky B-movie, horror B-movies that Vincent Price was a part of. That actually goes back to when we covered the thief in the cobbler, Vincent Price is like, I can't, maybe exactly like Paul Rubens. I can't really name like the top tier movies he's been in. - Well, he's been in a lot of stuff and he's an older actor. I mean, he passed away in '93 and he was in 210, technically actor credits, yeah, a lot. But always love to see him. Such a, I don't know, such an atmosphere about him. He really brings so much to it. - I think this film is very charming, very cute, but not really funny, which is an unfortunate quality to lose from the previous movie so far. Each scene kind of just boils down to like a type of type of reaction, you know. - Fish out of water stuff, constantly? - Yeah, it's definitely fish out of water. Maybe that's why I wasn't like finding it like really funny funny. - Yeah, it's not your vibe. - But there's just something there that was just like, it focuses on being cute rather than outwardly funny, which, you know, definitely is a direction you can go. I feel like it comes out a little bit weaker for that reason. - Can I maybe throw out a movie title? I mean, it's getting kind of, it just popped in my head that maybe that's exactly what this is. - Kind of. - 2024's Lisa Frankenstein, which we saw together in theaters. - That's a little bit more directly into the Frankenstein. - All right, well, yes, yes, but yeah, similar like. - Cutesy, not really funny. - Yeah, cutesy and also mean spirited around the people not in on the joke like the talents people, the normies, if you will, to it. I found myself wondering, watching this, was this the point of success that Burton starts to maybe take himself a little bit too seriously. You know, having the goal of making the macabre heartwarming is right in line with all of his early work going back even to Disney. If anything, this could have easily been a Pixar type movie pitch if he, in an alternate reality, stayed with Disney. But something simple is missing here and I think it can only go so far on charm alone. I feel like it needed some more like outwardly funny moments, whether it's around Edward or playing with these like, you know, cult personality characters of the neighborhood and the gossipy neighborhood, you know? - Right, of course, yeah. - It goes without saying, but this is pretty damn iconic for Johnny Depp. I mean, really a serious, serious role for him. Once again, feels in line with a lot of physical comedy from like, true classic actors of the silent era. And maybe that older comedic setup is also kind of cool to explain what I felt was maybe missing there, that it wasn't like outwardly funny. But among the huge catalog of characters, Johnny Depp has, this is without a doubt what skyrocketed him into stardom. He's acted in a few things before this. People will really say crybaby is his real debut. But this perfectly captures the angle that makes Depp Depp and his ability to be a little bit of a chameleon in the characters there. So I've never seen crybaby. - It is known as his entrance in, yeah, yeah, I have to say. - But when it comes to it, I feel like you look at this role and it's like, yeah, no wonder that Johnny Depp has more than a dozen characters he's known for and what he brings to that. You know, whether it be quirky weirdness or just, you know, a vibe that only Depp can do. Certain type of gothic heart frob. I guess I have to confront it at some point, but when I'm a writer, really isn't a great actress. - She's not, no, she's not. I feel like-- - She's bothersome. - It's just this like frazzled performance that always knows through-- - In everything, in everything. - Even in season one of Stranger Things. - Oh, absolutely. - I can't speak for other seasons, but. - Season one of Stranger Things, she is playing the camera. I mean, she's supposed to be a frazzled mother. I mean, her child is gone. - Yeah, in that sense, maybe, you know, right casting choice. - But it's still annoying. It's like Skylar and Breaking Bad. She's playing the part that the mother actually should be playing, but it's just like, I just can't do it. I just can't do it. I can't, I can't. - It's just on your nerves. I totally agree. And I'll definitely tear into her for the new Beetlejuice because there's, you know, so you watch Beetlejuice there. There's something there that's like, it's not a huge character, but Lydia is like a, kind of a cool guy, you know, like a cool golf teen. - Right. - Or she's like kind of too cool for school, you know. Nothing can impress her. What Winona Ryder brings to that performance is nothing, less than nothing, you know. It's just like, it's such a mismatch. And I feel like you start to see a little bit of the crumbs here. I mean, I guess for you, you saw it all the way, you know, to you earlier. (laughing) - And I don't know if it's the way that she presents her. So I don't know. I mean, they always say the best actors is through the eyes, not through the motions of your body or your physicality. You know, so your facial expressions because that's where the camera is. And maybe there's something lacking there. Maybe there's not enough emotion through the face. - Yeah. - It's also just like every line that comes out of her. It's just like in the same tone of just like, well, I don't know. Like it's so frazzled and annoying. And you're right, in a way, it's a little flat. - Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't, it doesn't, she doesn't evolve anything. - Wow, we never talked about this before with her. I'm glad we're on the same page. - Oh yeah, yeah. - For me, it's like, I don't know, if it's the same annoyance for me as Ryan Reynolds. I look at her and Ryan Reynolds and I have the same-- - There's no evolution in what they're bringing. - Correct, 'cause Ryan Reynolds is Ryan Reynolds in every single role, right? - Yeah, too. - And I guess we get the no-no-no effect as well. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah. I think, I don't know, maybe when we've talked about and pass with like, Stranger Things, it was that like, I thought like, Stranger Things season one, especially, you know, no spoilers for Utah for it. 'Cause you haven't watched anything else. But I feel like, I was just like, wow, this is a, you know, for her shtick, this was a good casting choice because it is the character. - Right, exactly. - But everything else, especially just the three slots she's in this week, she's not bringing it. She's not bringing it. - Who would've been good for this? - I don't know. - Like how about this Julianne Moore at this point? - Yeah, maybe. My thing is like, despite it's obviously like a love story here, she actually has surprisingly little screen time. Like this is kind of like a little bit of a re-wash of Keaton in Beetlejuice. Like, she's obviously not the title character. - Right. - There, there's a, you know, it takes a while till you get her, even just showing up on screen, no less, you know, actually engage with the plot. The seeds are here. You can hear it in the performance of literally everything she does, and boy, does she, does she just double down on it since Stranger Things? It truly seems like that now is truly her shtick if it wasn't before. Folks, I think this is a watch if you enjoy seeing what Burton can do to take designs out of animation and into live action. From the machine tower to all the hedge sculptures, and of course, Edward himself, this really does show how much of a vision he has here. And that's where I was coming away with a lot of, I don't know, positive feelings around this week. I like watching Tim Burton movies because he is a visionary. It might not be a vision that everyone enjoys equally, but you can't fault him for not having that creative spin to his projects. But if you haven't seen it before, maybe temper some of those expectations that come along with this iconic reputation of the film. We're gonna go ahead and give Edward Scissorhands 1990 a matching 64. Oh, really? Oh, wow. I think they're really neck and neck. Obviously, two very different movies. Yeah, yeah. But this had enough going for it. Yeah, I'm a little surprised by that. I think so. I think so. I think something is, there's still that charming aspect that really sells you. I mean, you said it yourself by the end. It had me in the end. Yeah. I cared about the relationship in the end. Absolutely. I mean, this was like over 10 years ago. I mean, this is-- Yeah. But-- Well, it's-- I think there's something there. And we haven't talked a lot about Tim Burton's pre-director history, but there's something there, I think, in the training he had at Disney. I feel like there is a Disney magic to his films, even though they don't necessarily look like a Disney movie. The imagination, yeah, yeah. Would you say-- would you recommend this film for the film because you should see it for Tim Burton's sake or you should see it for Johnny Depp's sake? Like, who's more important in all of this? The film itself or one of these two guys? Interesting. I wouldn't call myself a huge Johnny Depp fan, but I feel like if you do love Johnny Depp, especially any of Pirates of Caribbean or major major roles, this is probably recommended on that more so than Tim Burton. Like, if you have a top five-- the top six Johnny Depp films, this will be in there. I think so. But a top six, Burton probably is not in there. Yeah, probably not, but I don't know if Burton does get a top six. [LAUGHTER] OK, well, we're going to keep on going. This is 1996, so we're six years ahead because in all of this is when he's doing Nightmare before Christmas. Both the Batman films and also, I think, Edward as well. Wow, that's a lot in there. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot in that, too. Edward was also maybe going to be in this slot for Mars attacks, but I don't know, more so I think when you look at this list, it sells a little bit more of what Tim Burton's about. OK. I'm fascinated about this film here because I know nothing about it. I've listened to other-- not even movie podcasts, but this have gotten brought up before. Really? And things I've listened to? Interesting. It's got a stacked cast. I constantly get this confused with that other like Aliney movie with Rick Moranis. Oh, which I can't-- oh, look it up, then. OK, OK. Because I could be wrong in my head. I don't know. Sure, sure. Because I always picture this as just a terrible film, but it's got-- it has such a stacked cast. Yeah, it's like unusual. I don't know how this is all that bad. Yeah. It's 1996's Mars attacks exclamation point. I was waiting for that. I didn't hear that in the intro. It's like, oh, that's always toxic. So why don't you break it out? Set this up for us, and you have to just get into it. Yeah, well, I would like to start with admitting a dark, embarrassing secret for a long-ass time. This was really one of my main guilty pleasure watches. Oh, this is surprising at all. Yeah. So yeah, maybe not a secret to no one. Mars attacks is by no means a good movie. In fact, it's one of the messiest experiences you could probably ever choose to watch. It's original score of a '59 shows that even back before the podcast was a thing, I was conflicted about this. I was conflicted about where this movie lands being. There's so many things against it, but there is an element there that I do love about the film. Conflicted is the word when it comes down to that. Going into this week, I said, well, what's the worst that can happen? I'd give it a speak rating, and we move on. But watching this critically-- I'm not even sure it makes the cut for that. It's just a bad film. Yeah. It's somewhere existing in a limbo of mediocrity that even for its campy aliens that I love the film for, it's just not strong enough to recommend one way or another. I feel like it really does sit somewhere in the puddle because it's just like-- I don't know. I feel like it's just such a mess in so many ways, but still has redeeming qualities to keep it out of being really, really, truly horrifically bad. Like our last film, this is a huge love letter from Tim Burton to so much of what inspired him as an animator. While we've already mentioned his time at Disney, this movie calls back to slightly earlier in his career when most of his stop motion animations were inspired by sci-fi drive-in schlock. Those type of monster or disaster double features that so many directors have tried to punch up over the years, especially coming from the '50s. And we kind of see a wave in the '70s and '80s of people remaking those along with '50s nostalgia. A key figure for this inspiration was the great Ray Harryhausen whose work we've extensively covered in our stop motion animation special, specifically in 1956's "Earth versus the Flying Saucers" seems to be the biggest inspiration for the film, even parodying a few iconic shots around the Washington Monument. But stylistically, I think this works because it really combines nearly every possible trope from these '50s B movies, like a big old salad of everything Area 51. That's my pitch for Mars and Tessa. - Okay, so we had a kind of a flurry of that. - Yes. - Not quite creature feature, right? - Maybe creature feature, because we do learn about the monster ultimately. It's about how do you overcome the monster? - I think the emphasis that you would put is B movie. - Yeah, yes, bingo, bingo. So like as much as I want to defend it, it's still like it's not only trying to be a B movie, it's like a B movie of the '90s, right? - Right, right, right. - So yeah, like I said, I'm gonna have maybe a lot of thoughts in different directions. If folks, if you don't really like when my reviews don't necessarily match up with the score, that's exactly why we have the podcast. - Yeah. - That's exactly why I like to explain my thoughts on this. Mars attacks, it's all in the name, folks. It's mean-spirited, it's crass, and boy, is it a mess that only Tim Burton could make? Rather than focus on one single character, we have a huge ensemble cast that forces you to play a game of who really matters in this, who the hell should we care about, especially for your first watch? Mainly that who the hell should we care about and who's actually gonna make it out alive is a little bit of the game to this B movie disaster structure of the film. The way I've always described this is it's really about Earth versus Mars, but even zooming out to de-emphasize our characters in that way doesn't make for the most satisfying movie, especially when you care about the characters, and guess what, why do you care about these characters? 'Cause it's like a stacked cast. - Yes, very stacked, very stacked. - Anyone's going to have a soft spot for at least one or two characters in this, or rather actors. You know what is satisfying though? Psychotic evil brain aliens from space that won't think twice about vaporizing you on site, and that's what this movie's about. - I had to sit with this review much longer than I would have liked. I feel like these have been like pretty short so far, which is nice. This is what I was like mulling over for a long time. But it's like, it's the conflict of like, I like this movie, I know it's bad, how do I translate that to our goal of the podcast? It's like, how do you recommend it, you know? Who is this actually for, you know? But I think why I enjoy, or rather what I enjoy so much about this is how outright evil the aliens are. You know, Burton always has a bit of a mean spirit in making fun of his dumb characters in the movies. You get that in the random suburban characters, you get that in P-We for sure, and that sometimes P-We's not even the butt of the joke, it's the people around him. But here, that's nearly every single human. Humanity itself is the, you know, the who Tim Burton is poking fun at, the idiocracy of it. These aliens abuse that stupidity time and time again. And while in modern day, you might wanna craft a villain that can, you can empathize with on some level, has like a nice paper trail, and be like, oh yeah, I guess that's kinda reasonable. Sometimes it's just nice to have that mustache twirling element, and that is what the Martians here are in, you know, what they represent in Mars attacks. Folks, this has an insane cast here, as we've been saying, and while it might seem like it might draw you in, how they are utilized is another story. It honestly is just too many to even rattle off, but the key ones are Jack Nicholson playing two characters for no reason, two whole characters. One feels like he just, they just let him go. He plays like a Texas or like, you know, like a big Tex gambling tycoon. And it's just like, it feels like really, like he had no acting direction whatsoever. Pierce Brosden, the year after GoldenEye no less, like how did they get him, like. - I see, I love it, I love that. I love that acting choice. - Yeah. On the voice acting front, Frank Welker, the voice of Megatron, and countless characters does all the Martians, so that's definitely a sweet spot for me, or a soft spot for me. And then, just like, again. - To who's who? - So many of the name, Michael J. Fox, Sarah Jessica Parker, Pam Greer, Jack Black, Natalie Portman, Danny DeVito, Tom Jones. - Tom Jones. - As Tom Jones. - That's hilarious. That's so good. There's a plot put in this where Tom Jones is asking if he knows how to pilot a plane, and he's just like, yeah, I know how to pilot a plane. It's just like, it makes me question, does Tom Jones actually know how to pilot a plane? Like, why was this brought up? - It's completely insane. - And that Benning, Martin Short. - Yep. - You're saying that'll important. Jim Brown, isn't it? - Yep, yep. - It's ridiculous. - It's unreal, but this complete insanity is something I wanted to discuss, because it's back to back with our next review, and with something I will hate the new Beetlejuice for. Kind of the question being, how to juggle so many characters, and how to tell us as the audience if a messy plot is working or not? You know, I think on the first half of that, I think the movie does a half decent job at clearing up what we shouldn't care about, you know, with most of these characters. Like an old school disaster movie, the large class almost implies that not everyone is going to survive, so that's good right there. But the other side of the question is more complex, and why I was kind of sitting with this a lot. I'm not sure about it, but something I'm interested to explore throughout the podcast is, you know, what is the balance needed to make a farce work? It got me thinking about airplane, it got me thinking about like Austin Powers and Black Dynamite, where these movies don't take themselves seriously at all, but there's something, there's a degree there that it works, and when it works and when it doesn't is the line. So I really don't have an answer. I actually kind of wanted to bring it up more as kind of a conversation, Tom. - I mean, a lot of it just goes off a feeling, and then a lot of it is because it's so ridiculous, this film, for a lot of audiences could always just be a great enjoyment for that. The plot doesn't always have to work. This has a recipe for success, this film actually, because it's so ridiculous. You have Martians coming down, killing everyone. It's the fact that you have a stat cast, everyone is incompetent, and then people are dying off, and you have like this evil villain, which are Martians coming down. It's so silly, so many people are going to like this film. - Sure, sure. - Even though it's a bad film, I think it almost writes itself a little bit. - Yeah. - Like how could you ever defend it as a good film? - Right, right. - But you, especially knowing you? - Yeah. - I don't, it's almost like no need, man. I think we get it, we understand. - So you're on one, so you're racking my brain over at a great Mars tax, and yeah, like. - I think that's a good point though. - The problem is, is that it's feeling based. - Yeah. - So how do you put that down on paper? And how do you explain to other people with this, or just that feeling that anyone might have on any type of film that isn't good, but speaks to them in a certain way? - And it's why I was thinking of Airplane, where it's just like, there's something more to that than just comedy, than just the jokes working, you know? - Kind of, it's just the jokes working. The fact, like you said, they don't let up on the pedal. So eventually we're beaten over, where they submit you into finding it funny. - Yes, yeah. - Maybe another movie that for me does not work, and yet for a lot of people it does, which is Adiocracy. - Oh, okay. - Does not work at all. Everyone is an idiot, except for Luke Wilson's character. (laughing) - But it's so dumb, and people love it for the dumbness. - Yeah. - And for the, it's like, revolutionary for the time, 'cause look at today, that kind of stuff. And that film just does not do it. At the same time, I get why people can go along with the ride. And that's what this film is for you. You can go along with the ride. - Yeah, yeah, true, true. And something that I think is the challenge, in trying to review comedies, when it's so subjective to it, so. - Yeah. - But I like that. As far as the next catastrophic issue with the film, (laughing) and the really the final one that we'll talk about, is really what prevents me from fully defending it. And it's sadly the black hole of mid-90s CGI. Setting the film in brightly lit Nevada, and around recognizable monuments in DC, pays this no favors, like we've discussed before, with benchmarks like Jurassic Park. Now, out of the options, Burton could have used, there's CGI, there's puppets, or there's some sort of animation or stop motion, and that's clearly the elephant in the room. CGI, out of even those available options, comes out as the far, by far the worst choice. In the production of this, Burton, of course, wanted to make all the Martian stop motion, even trying to pull Henry Selick away from James and the Giant Peach at the time. - Wow. - And work with them again, like Nightmare. But eventually, the budget cracked, and they leaned on Industrial Light and Magic, ILM, to get the job done in a crunched eight month turnaround. And that's where it's just like, I love the design of the Martians, I think they're just so like deliciously evil. I love the sound effects, I love their aching, but man, this just, it doesn't look good. (laughing) You know, if I'm gonna bash any CGI, I need to pass it to a little bit. - So it is CGI, it wasn't a mix of puppets CGI, it was just CGI from Industrial Light and Magic. Which, you know, isn't there yet, because, and so you people know, and Industrial Light and Magic was created by George Lucas. - Yes. - A year or two, maybe two years before the original Star Wars, he built the company for the effects of Star Wars, and it still continues today as a leading industry standard. - Absolutely. - I mean, they get hired out constantly for the biggest films. - Almost like a 911 for films a lot of times. - Right, and the thing with it, I mean, if you go back and watch episode one, Star Wars, you can see where we're at with the visual effects, and this is three years before that, in '96, so. - That's so funny, Tom, my next note is literally, if you like Jar Jar Binks from "The Phantom" and as well you're in luck, that's fantastic. - And did you see the price tag for this film? - I mean, I'm shocked, 'cause we said "50s B" movie is where you would put this film. - I think it was in 100 million or. - It was 80 to 100 million dollars. Back then, Alien Romulus this year, $80 million, just so you know. - It's like one of the best looking B effects you've got. - Yeah, I think puppets might've been the middle ground a way to go. I understand why the first attempt was stop motion. I also think like, as a fan of this film, and as a fan of like the, I don't know, the style of Mars attacks in like '50s, you know. Area 51 type of style. There's just something so like, tragically lost not having them all be stop motion. Like I thought it was such a special movie, like really just done to the nines of like, you know, everything is stop motion. Like maybe it would've looked even just as silly as those puppets, but. - It would've taken four years to make. - It would've been like a serious labor of love, yeah. - Or really take it back to the '50s and just do man in suit. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. But yeah, a little bit of a lost potential there. Yeah, for the birds ultimately, it's not the film. Actually related to those production elements, Tom, is at the same time, I believe Tim Burton was trying to develop this simultaneously with a dinosaur attacks B-movie type of ripoff. - Interesting. - I would like that one more. - Yeah. - But no, couldn't get it off the ground, could it? - I couldn't do it. I think Spielberg was encroaching in on that. - Oh man. I want you to land this plane here. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. That really is all about, I have to say on this. Originally, I wasn't going to cover this because I knew how conflicted I would feel about it and kind of the rubber meets the road as like, how do you give this a score? But I think a drop in score was well needed to communicate how small the audience size is for this movie. Like I said, I don't think this gets a speak rating. As much as I enjoy it in a campy like popcorn-y type of way. - Yeah. - Mainly because it takes a while to kind of actually ramp up to those campy elements. But for the weirdos out there like me that enjoy sci-fi to a fault, it might just be your own guilty pleasure watch. We're going to go ahead and give Mars attacks. 1966, a 49. - That's a cheeky score. - Yeah, that is a cheeky score. - 49%, okay. I think you defended it well by the way. - Thank you, I appreciate it. - I appreciate it. It's hard to talk about good movies and then to talk about bad movies in a similar love. - The other film I was thinking about was with Rick Moranis. - Oh yeah, yeah. - Was "Little Shop of Horrors." - Oh, okay, yeah. - You gave it a 61%. - Yeah, decent musical, a different classic. - Okay, okay, so before we move on to our last film here in "Theaters" folks, just want to remind people that we are going off the value for value model and we're producer based here. So what that means is Vin and I put all of our content out there basically for free. The podcast, the website, it's all out there. 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We're really jumping ahead because this is, we've covered most of Tim Burton's early stuff. - Right, right. - 2024, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice is the name. This has always been talked about and I would say for over a decade now, it would always be brought up to Keaton and Tim Burton and it was being asked for by the fans. This does have a cult following in like a big fan base and it's been in the works for a little bit and agreed upon that they're gonna do it. Finally, the schedules came together and sure enough here it is 2024, nearly 40 years later. - Yeah, for real. - That this other film comes out, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Vin, set it up for us and get into it. - No, well, for a trilogy being implied in the very name itself, I guess we'll be back with Tim Burton before long. Honestly, the biggest indicator of that is the surprising successful box office run. This is had over the weekend. What are the exact numbers Tom? I know you said so. - It made, over the weekend, it made it $111 million. Which again, second, biggest September opening of all time. - Right. That's unreal, unreal. - I mean, once again-- - What's the first? - That's a good question, I'll put a quick look that up. But it made me, as soon as I saw that, I said, you know, I mean, I'm the worst judge at all of this stuff. - It's like we always say we'd lose money. - Whatever I think, it's just the opposite. That Hollywood executives should be talking to us because it's just like, well, what do you guys think? We tell them and they're just in the opposite. - The door shuts and they're like, all right. - They'll make a bunch of money. (laughing) - The door shuts and they're like, all right, yeah, the opposite of that. - It's ridiculous, $111 million. - That's unreal. - It's ridiculous, crazy. - Also, just, any time we've been getting like a big hit this year, I just think of like, oh, you know, where's all those articles now about dying theaters and whatnot? - Right, right. - Just wait a week for Beetlejuice Beetlejuice to come out. - It, by the way, the first it remake. - Oh, the first remake. - In 2017. - Oh, interesting, interesting. Okay, yeah, interesting. - Yeah, I guess kind of like September being pre-spooky vibes and, you know, craving Halloween just in the sense that we get like Christmas movies in November, I guess that's the play. But, I don't know, movies don't stick around anymore, so. - Right, well, yeah. It, by the way, was rated R too. So that's super shocking. So it goes, it, and then it now goes, the Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. Then it goes, it's chapter two, actually. - Wow, wow, interesting. Folks, I am gonna be a bit of a downer on this one despite getting decent praise critically and especially from fans. But overall, I thought this was pretty damn awful and ironically soulless. Not so much as a cash grab, but still representing the worst qualities of what legacy sequels have become. I don't have any regrets about the movie choices this week. I thought it was a really good example of the imagination of a Burton and his vision, but it does not give a good look at the lower quality movies Burton has been pumping out in his modern career. I'm talking Dumbo. I'm talking that terrible live action Allison Wonderland. For the last decade, Tim Burton has been disconnected from his own recipe of success. And while some have praised this for a return to force in that regard that it's a return of Tim Burton, once again, I thought this was just like as soulless as it gets, really like frustratingly soulless. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice is the same style of supernatural comedy we got with the first, but without any of that tight focus that I praised so much of the original for, that tight focus that kind of boils down to why you should watch the movie at all in that first one, but I'll leave that be. Winona Ryder reprises her role as Lydia Dietz and is now a supernatural talk show host with a hacky ghost adventures spin. Much of the startup time is, man, jumping through just the biggest, biggest sequelitis hoops imaginable before anything important happens where you gotta kill off everyone they couldn't bring back for the sequel. Mainly our two male actors that are now criminals. (laughing) Sorry, maybe we're criminal on the making. But then for some reason we gotta make like new rules to give stakes to Beetlejuice in the afterlife that go like literally nowhere, it just, man, sequelitis is the word for this. There is a jaws of life they have to use to pry open why there should be a story around this whatsoever. The story finally settles in on our trio of lead actresses, though. Winona Ryder, Catherine O'Hara, coming back to play the mom and Burton's new favorite, Genonor Tega, playing the daughter. While Genonor Tega is mad at her mom for some loose abandonment plot line, we see her tap into the same spiritual abilities that her mother discovered in her youth. Mainly curiosity around Beetlejuice, who himself is tangled up with a psycho ex hunting him down to suck out whatever remains of his soul. Our last character introduced to this is Monica Belushi, playing a cult leader that caused the death of Beetlejuice way back when when he was alive, and now she wants her revenge. But honestly, it is just one more plot line that goes nowhere while the film flounders and nostalgic scenes that don't work half as good as the original. Tom, if that wasn't enough of a bloated summary, I mean, like, really, like how many plot lines are in this? Let me try to break down what this movie tries to set up. Lydia as a character has zero growth, like I said. It's like 34 years, and it's just like-- She's still just Winona Ryder as a kid, basically. Winona Ryder's kid, also the bad acting of-- Right, right, right, right, right, right. And then no change in haircut either. That I think is the most ridiculous part about this. She keeps the same dude. It keeps like the spikes-- The spikes, the spikes, yeah. That might be like the most ridiculous part. I was just like, what, 34 years that wouldn't fall? All of it is to put in a relationship plot line just to get another Halloween wedding scene. Jenna Ortega then gets thrown a ghost boyfriend that feels directly ripped from the new Ghostbusters film earlier this year. Beetlejuice has his killer ex, but doesn't interact with that storyline until the very end of the movie. They are literally always just missing each other for the entire film, very frustrating. And in between we get the moms' art antics and Willem Dafoe being like a ghost cop. I guess there's some loose tie around relationships between all these plot lines. Yeah. But it seriously has to be one of the most unfocused, disjointed stories I've seen in a long time. Like it was just like-- I thought this was going to have different issues than this. Yeah, I just feel like nothing for these characters, even returning characters, maybe especially returning characters, because it's like, why are we telling this story again? And why are the endings better? Do you think it would be better just to pick a new couple? Absolutely. And then just have Michael Keaton in it more. Beetlejuice actually paid more of her character. Absolutely. I still have Jenna Ortega because obviously he's working with her over in the atmosphere. Sure, yeah. OK, but make Jenna Ortega the new-- who Beetlejuice is lusting after, like Winona's first one, I don't know. Just do a re-roll. Beetlejuice is immortal in the afterlife, or he's always present. So just make the time jump part of the story, but don't deal with existing characters. Maybe you can throw Winona in the end as a cameo. Right, yeah. That feels on brand for this type of shit. Willem Dafoe, no good. Willem Dafoe had it, come on now. A little campy, a little fun, but-- Ghost nowhere. Ghost nowhere. That's a shame, because he's in the trailer a bunch, kind of. Yeah. And then what about Justin Thoreau? He's the one name he didn't mention. He is the Winona's hubby that is planning this Halloween wedding, but it's kind of like a shotgun wedding. He surprises it on her. Gotcha, gotcha. This is the exact cross section, though, that I brought up in Mars Attacks. Clearly, that movie is even more of a mess than this, but somehow pulls off an incompetent ending, an ending that slightly makes you care. I'm not joking here. It feels like none of these storylines matter in the slightest, and really are just excuses to get to scenes that look like the original, that Halloween wedding being most importantly. And seriously, the movie just cannot stop making excuses for why actors and characters aren't in this. On top of spotlighting its own gunshot wound of, yeah, we obviously can't have Jeffrey Jones in this, because he's a predator or whatever. It would have been just so much better not to waste time and jump into a new story around Peter Juice harassing new characters. Get Keaton, keep Ortega, lose everyone else. Like, lose everyone else. And I feel like that would be the way to go. But you can do much more. Bring a new couple. Absolutely, absolutely. I felt that movie was really-- I have ready your little harsh. I'm reading this back now. It's just distinctly unfunny in times. But I think it's related to just a lot of the charm we've talked about in this movie, or for this week, rather, missing from this movie. Burton seems to think lip singing songs is all he has to do for jokes now, like some Boomer's understanding of TikTok. Obviously, that Harry Belafonte scene in the first is super iconic, like one of the best scenes. But here, it's used in like three different ways, and all of them just fall flat and kind of just feel like, oh, OK. They're just trying to catch the same fish. Yeah, we're going through the motions. That's where it's like-- I wouldn't call this a cash grab in the way that some legacy sequels are. But this does still, unfortunately, have those same qualities that I hate in these legacy sequels. Well, the problem is everybody asks for a Beetlejuice. By the way, there were some crazy stories about what the second Beetlejuice movie was supposed to be. Oh, really? Like, since the '90s talked about. Oh, interesting. Now, this one, in particular, just in development for a while. But you should hear something. I mean, Beetlejuice is a Hawaii type of stuff. But the thing with the redo is, hey, people love Beetlejuice. There's a market that they want Beetlejuice to. Right. OK. So what do they love about the first one? We'll just do it exactly. Let's just do it exactly the same. And that gets asses in seats? It gets asses in seats, but it is so-- it is such an uphill battle to catch that exact lightning in a bottle. Where if it's the characters and just the feel of the movie that people like, that's when it's like, can we just be a little bit more creative here? You know, just actually kind of just Tim Burton, go off on your own and go be crazy Tim Burton. Yeah. And give us a refresh. And instead, it's just different face, same character. It really is. It really is. It's just such a rewash. And again, folks, I'm so glad. I mean, this is exactly why I love doing homework within the weeks of what a director does or what a series is. It is so clear that when you watch that first Beetlejuice movie, what works is how tight the script is. It's about this ghostly experience that we can all put ourselves in. It's true. It is tight, yeah. And that's the lightning in the bottle. And here, it's just missing that. I will say, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, it's film. It's only an hour and 45 minutes. It's not like this is an over two hour film. Sure. To me, when I saw that, I thought, oh, this might be a quick, a quick, well-paced film. Yeah, right, right. But instead, it's just a mess of wires. It's a bird's nest. In terms of that charm, I think Burton was able to pull off a lot of the same visual design to be fair, which is enjoyable. I mean, if I'm going to praise the design of the afterlife, it is the same here. It just kind of hits a little bit less. But honestly, it felt like a lot of the jokes lean more towards gross out, rather than being the balance of spooky, creepy charm that I feel like the first one had. Like, they're obviously like gore and shit in the first one. Here, it leans a lot more into the gross out of that, which I feel like, folks you probably know, not really my bag from previous reviews. And I feel like that's also a key to where some of the charm wasn't working for me, because it got rid of what was actually charming, you know, instead of for these gross out type of laughs. Regardless of though, where you fall on the story and the style of the film, I hope not to be an outlier in saying that Winona Ryder just cannot act. (laughing) She is just so annoyingly herself in this. And it feels like, once again, there is just no effort put into telling a story of 34, 36 years later and zero character development put into this down to the very same haircut. I'm not saying there's a huge character in that original child performance. - Yeah. - It really isn't, like, both into our comments of like, it's also like not even about her in some ways. - Not at all. If anything, you know, both her and Keaton take on unexpected back seats in their own film, which, you know, works in that movie. But in this, it's that frazzled single mom acting that I just was not a single scene. I can say I enjoyed her in, you know. Where the hell is this like cool, emotionless goth that we saw in the first film, you know? It's just like, oh, it's just Winona Ryder now. It's not even Lydia Dietz. On an upside, Michael Keaton gets a lot more screen time in this sequel and precisely double what he got in the first in exchange for his, you know, the title saying his name twice. I would say this is really the one shining good example of where this film could have been made. Because if you love Beetlejuice, four Beetlejuice. - Right. - That firm's film maybe lacks some variety. Here we get a lot of time with Keaton and he is able to really slip into the best things about the characters effortlessly almost. You know, without a doubt, he is the best thing about this directly. And while we get a handful of moments that, again, in a legacy sequel kind of way, just like scrape the barrel on the same jokes, there are a handful of jokes that work even better in this, whether it be for the technical side of how it looks, or just kind of maybe playing into the expectation and doing a fake out real quick of what we think the joke is gonna be. But my, again, my frustration was through the roof because of just how much simply did not matter. And his plot with his like psycho ex hunting him down, it's what the trailer really leans into and makes you think the movie's gonna be about. I think in that regard, in the alternate forms of this, that could have also been something more valid. Maybe he comes to Renona for like help. He's like, oh, I'm out, you know, you switch the tables. You flip the tables and all that there. But it's a real shame. Monica has a wonderful scene with Danny DeVino in this, probably the coolest scene of the whole movie. And then proceeds to be literally in the background of shots walking across, never, never collide. - It's not utilized at all. - Yeah, never creating conflict, creating interest before why we shouldn't give up shit at all about this until the very end. And it's just like, oh my God, what a mess. What an absolute mess. I know I'm gonna be super harsh on this and in saying this, but walking out, I was clocking this in the high twenties. That was my gut reaction. I know that's, that's not where I stand now. Over the few days, I've softened a bit. And more so think that this was just kind of super forgettable. - Sure. - But folks, I think you can tell from the week and this episode that, and really actually even previous reviews of Burton's stuff, like Charlie and Chocolate Factory that I kind of defended. Tim Burton is a true creator that I am happy to praise for his vision, but something was seriously missing from this. And I think it's a simple result of Burton only having one sequel project under his belt, which would be Batman Returns. And him stumbling with this concept of what a sequel should be. Maybe to your point, Tom, about that, this has been in kind of development hell since the 90s. I mean, I go, actually, I'm gonna look up right away. What happened to Deedle-Juice and Hawaii? (laughing) - I don't know if it was development hell. It's more so ideas being thrown around and it's just not exactly, yeah. - Yeah. I feel like that awkwardness in the task of Burton, a visionary doing a sequel, rehashing ideas he's already gotten from page two real life. That's already an awkward stumble and he's only made further, only corrupted further by a modern legacy sequel trends that are all over this film. We're gonna go ahead and give Deedle-Juice, Beedle-Juice a 34. - 34%. - Like I said, my gut set of 29. - On a movie that is crushing it at the box office. - Yeah, this is not gonna win any fans. - It's my understanding that some critics are like enjoying this film. - Oh yeah. - Oh my gosh. - Fans are in love with it, box office shows that, but also critics have been like, oh yeah, this is a return to force for Tim Burton. That's why we watch the old movies. That's why we do the five slots. - So if you are giving this a 34, how would I like this film? (laughing) - I don't know, I really don't know. - I probably would hate every single aspect of this movie, every single aspect. - But without a lot of nostalgia to the first one, maybe, I mean, it really is like the same settings, the same kind of set work to it. Maybe it would come out one and better. Maybe that's where a lot of people are positioning it. So, listen, I'm not gonna watch it, 34%. (laughing) I think you told us everything we need to know here. - Yeah. - Wow, okay, we made it through the Burton slog here. (laughing) - Don't say that. - No, no, I know, this was good. This was good. And we've got a decent amount of Burton now on the site. - Yeah. - And I like that we covered some of his early stuff and it ties into last week a little bit where we covered the directors first. - So true. - You know what I mean? - Yeah, I mean, Pee Wee is definitely a Tim Burton first. - Yeah, yeah. - So, yeah, I think when I walk away with a week like this, I try to reflect positively on what a director or what a visionary has to bring to the table. And it's just like, you look at a lot of these films, it's like Tim Burton has cemented himself in Hollywood and certainly for the amount of copycats that come off of these movies. I think the best part about it is most of these are still worth checking out on their own. - Yeah, and a lot of last week was, what is the, you know, we watched his early films from these guys, what's the DNA? Do we see what is the carry through with these guys, what represents them? And for him, it is his imagination. Burton's imagination is what is Burton, you know? - Absolutely. - So, that's pretty cool. I love that we took a, you know, we went through his stuff, I like this. Anything else to touch on here, Vin? - Any closing notes or things for next week? - Well, next week, probably a shorter episode. We got that new "Speak No Evil" movie. There's also a Danish original version that I'm gonna check out. I was actually planning on watching that tonight. But exciting, came out of nowhere. Rebel Ridge on Netflix. - Tell me about what this Rebel Ridge is for business. - This is Jeremy Solnir. This is "Green Room, Blue Ruin." - Oh my gosh. - This guy. - Right. - Yes. - Absolutely, I mean, I wanna cover "Speak No Evil," but that could be almost a director slot or a director episode in itself. But, I'm really excited. - Is that week? - It's already out on Netflix. - Oh, we gotta, we gotta, yeah. - Absolutely. - I'm excited for that. - Yeah, yeah. So, and it's been a while since we've given streaming some love and in the next couple of weeks, we'll have a few more of those, so. - Okay, excellent. Wow, that's, man. I've been hearing about Rebel Ridge. And I just, I didn't, and I knew that guy was coming out with a film and just never connected to it. - He's always got these, like, kind of forgettable two word titles too, and it's just like-- - "Green Room, Blue Ruin, Rebel Ridge." Wow, speaking about being uncomfortable. - Yeah. - That's a guy who you're uncomfortable watching this film. - Yeah, yeah, I would love to revisit "Green Room," but I think a lighter week would be nicer. So, two new slots and then one homework for the original version of "Speak No Evil." It's probably gonna be what it is. - Excellent, it's not gonna be a lighter week then. (laughing) Excellent, Vint, thank you so much for taking us through "Early Burton" here. Cool, this was fun. Okay, so folks at home, we'll run it down one more time. So, we had "Pee Wee's Big Adventure" with a 64%. "Beetle Juice" with a 75. "Edwards Scissor Hands" with a 64. "Mars Attacks" exclamation point with a 49. And "Beetle Juice" "Beetle Juice" with a 34%. Folks, thank you so much for listening. And as always, we'll see you next week on "The Daily Ratings Podcast." (upbeat music) (upbeat music) And hey, if you enjoyed the podcast, if you would, give us a good rating or get the word out and tell a friend about us. And just a reminder that "The Daily Ratings" is completely producer supported. We wanna stay away from advertising and we don't wanna have any paywalls or tear structures or subscriptions, it's all just value for value. So, are you finding value in any of the things that we're doing here at "The Daily Ratings?" Then become a producer and donate whatever amount of value that is. Just go to the donations tab on thedailybradings.com. And while you're there, be sure to check out the massive amount of films that Vince has rated. 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