213Hoops: The Lob, The Jam, The Podcast
Breaking down the Derrick Jones Jr addition with Mavericks writer Tim Cato
Buick Enclave is designed to make together your favorite place to be, with an abundance of thoughtful features, like the hands-free power lift gate, and with generous space for up to seven, your family will agree. Time spent together inside this SUV is time well spent. Enclave gives connectivity a starring role. Your family will stay connected to the world, even when you are on the move. Experience Buick Enclave today at Shortline Buick 1301 South Havana Street. You do the driving. We'll do the rest. ♪♪♪ What's up, everyone? Whoa, going back to another episode of The Wall of the Jam of the Podcast. I'm Luke Sand, joined today by a special returning guest, newly writing for DLLS, the All City Dallas Mavericks platform. And podcasting and YouTube-ing and everything that they do over there. Tim Cato, how are you doing, Tim? I'm doing well. I'm a YouTube start now, I guess. Yeah. It's a little bit of a change, but, hey, Mr. Beast, we're coming for you. I give you six months until you're on TikTok. No, unbelievable. I want to see you doing a little dance, pointing at, like, offensive rating with Clay Thompson on. That's what I want. That's what I'm terrified, is that it might take the under on that. Now, it's fun. It's a new place. Everybody's familiar with the V&BR, I'll plug for two seconds for the off chance. There's a tiny Venn diagram of, you know, Clippers fans and people, but yeah, it's DLLS. We're kind of doing a bunch of Dallas sports-related stuff, but yeah, you know, in the same way that I used to write kind of semi-national features, I still plan to do that and maybe more even here in the year, you know, kind of teasing without saying too much here. But yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's been fun. It's been exciting and it's always exciting to come up with this part I was always happy to. Yeah, yeah. We appreciate you coming on over the years to give that math perspective, especially with what sort of become a little rivalry between these two teams that keep finding each other in the first round of the playoffs. The reason with the genesis of this podcast, we'll talk on a wide range of Clippers and Mavericks and West Conference topics. But the real genesis of this podcast is with the Clippers making so many off-season additions to try to kind of revamp their supporting cast offset for losing a superstar in Paul George, we're trying to talk to some different folks from what Brown the League who have covered the new Clippers in the past and see what they bring to the table and bring that perspective to our audience, of course, the Mavericks last season at Derrick Jones Jr. as a huge part of their success in what was really sort of a Cinderella run in the NBA playoffs. What does, you know, Justin in a summary, what did your Derrick Jones Jr. bring to that Mavericks team last year and how badly will they miss him? He's a really good, he is a good role player and he is somebody that really won over a lot of Mavericks fans. There's a little bit of, you know, rewritten history right now. There, you know, if you go on to Mavericks spaces, you can definitely see people saying not just Marshall is just as good or better. That was not the sentiment among Mavericks fans. He really became a beloved figure. What he brings is obviously, you know, the first thing that pops is the athleticism. You know, everybody knows he's a huge dunker. The way that translates one is that he's a very good transition player. One thing that really surprised me early on in his tenure is that he's much more than just dunking. He is actually a very good, very impressive finisher with a lot of ways to hang in the air, hit layups, hit scoop shots, use these, you know, I joke that he has like bird bones, you know, like they're hollow inside, you know, that's the only way that I've been able to kind of explain his athleticism and he's just this lanky guy. So, you know, he is a, he's just a really impressive solid finisher in a lot of different ways. The other way that brings, you know, that athleticism brings, you know, directly relates to the court is defensively and he, this is the place that he won me over the most last season is that he is a genuinely, genuinely one of the better. I would say one of the best point of attack defenders, especially for quick ones and off ball twos, he's very, very good and again, this comes to kind of his athletic frame. He's very slinky and slithery. He gets around screens so well and when you're thinking about Dallas, you know, who has Luca and Kyrie as, you know, they're ones and twos, they really needed a three that guard down. That's a, that's a true skill of his, something that really impressed me. You know, he's someone who, you know, I remember late in the season, he, he followed Steph Curry from one side of the court to the other, navigated all those screens. And then I step, you know, comes around and, and Jones is trailing a little bit. He blocks Steph's jumper at, at the point of release, like that's, that's so impressive. There's going to be some blocks of his on against jump shooters, you know, he's, he's, a good shot blocker at the rim, a good weak side guy, a, a help, like a low man who, who helps over, but he's going to have a few blocks of jump shots that are just, just impressed, like just wow you. And so this is a guy who genuinely like, you know, I was an awards voter last season and I do not think it was a, a homework pick that he was on my shortlist, he didn't make, he wasn't eligible weirdly enough, he didn't play enough minutes in enough games and he wouldn't have been on my all-defense team. But I did have him on my shortlist, you know, maybe top 25ish defender in the league. I, I genuinely think, you know, I understand there may be a proximity bias here. But I, I genuinely think that he, he kind of earned that. Now the downsides is obviously just that, you know, he's a very inconsistent shooter. And early in the year for Dallas, he was shooting like 36, 37, 38% through like 30 games. The rest of the season he shot his career averages, which was about 30% and the reason that he had a little bit of a tick up in his 3.0 percentage was just that early season boost. Um, I think, you know, in, in the post season, we definitely saw hesitations for him. I think when he's wide open, he will pull the trigger. He's confident in a shot that if you, if defenders are sagging way off him to the point that there is only one option, shoot the ball. He will shoot the ball every time. The problem is when they do the kind of half help off and then he's presented with this option of, well, I'm kind of open, but I can kind of drive it, or I can kind of just hesitate and doesn't know what to do. And he's not reliable enough that he's going to pull that every single time. When he's feeling good about the shot, it goes up a little bit more often. Uh, but yeah, when he isn't, you see that hesitation. Sometimes he's driving into traffic, especially against better rim protecting, better defenses. Uh, you'll see him drive into nothing. Uh, you saw that happen a lot against Boston where, you know, he didn't trust a shot. He didn't trust the above the break three, uh, Boston was not giving any role player of the corner three. And so as a result, he just kind of drove in there and got stuffed by persingus or tatum or, you know, sometimes even the husk of, uh, Al Horford, which is me to Al Horford. Uh, I love you out, Horford, uh, if you listen to this, I didn't mean it, but, um, Al Horford is a listener. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I figured, you know, he seems like a real basketball player in Al Horford. Yeah. So yeah, you know, that's, that's a, that's a quick and dirty summary. I do think Dallas is going to miss him. Um, but I don't know if he's a better player than Najee Marshall. Uh, I, I do think that he fit Dallas in some ways a lot better, especially that ability to guard down. Um, but, you know, for Dallas to offer the same salary to both of these players, something, something I reported and, you know, the big reason, you know, the reason why Jones ended up in L.A. A little bit more on, on the top of that, and so Dallas just turned around and offered the exact same contract and Najee Marshall. Clearly there are players in similar stratospheres and I do think that some of what made, uh, Jones so good in Dallas was certainly the, you know, the atmosphere and the environment that you're going to get when you're playing next to Luca, you know, who can create threes and create transition opportunities for you, uh, you know, same goes for Kyrie. Certainly it was some boost of, you know, just stay, you know, playing within all time, playmaker, uh, you know, on an offense, uh, I definitely think Jones, uh, was helped a lot by that. Yeah. And, you know, Luca obviously is at, at the peak of his powers right now, but I think the, the Clippers have a pretty good pick and roll playmaker on their end as well who can, who can find guys quality looks and we saw that last season. I actually want to, want to follow up on something you mentioned in there that I said a lot. All right. Yeah. No, no, no, no. That, that has not been really talked about on the Clippers side of things with this Jones and your acquisition. A lot of the talk is of course about his defense and, uh, you know, I think he's, they did an interview with him at summer league and he said he's going to guard the other team's best player every night, right? That, that type of role, which is what he had taken on in Dallas, but you mentioned him as a low man. And that's actually something. The reason that really sticks out to me is the Clippers last year did not have a second power forward on the roster. Really that, that played, I mean, they had PJ Tucker, they had the rookie Kobe Brown, but they didn't have anyone who played power forward besides Kawhi Leonard. So when Kawhi Leonard was out, it was a lot of Amir coffee who's a six, seven negative week span shooting guard, Paul George, who doesn't like to do dirty work, um, Terrence man, who's a six, five combo guard, right? And those were the guys playing power forward last to, just to underscore this last season, the Clippers when Kawhi Leonard was on the court were a top five defense in the NBA. And when Kawhi Leonard was off the court, they were a bottom five defense in the NBA. They struggled to be competent with anyone as the low man besides Kawhi. And I think just looking at Derek, you know, he's slight of frame. And obviously he's, he's immensely athletic with a superb wingspan. But you know, he's starting at six, five, six, six, right? Is he a guy who you think could be used to cover power forward shifts playing in the, in that low man role defensively when Kawhi Leonard isn't on the court? Yeah. I think it depends on the power forward, but, but I think he can definitely be a low man. I think he sizes down as a point of attack defender. If you're saying, Hey, go stop this guy. He's better off guarding the ones, twos and skinnier threes, uh, but, but if you're looking for that help defense, I do think he sizes up or plays a little bit bigger at the rim when he's coming over from the baseline and helping there just because he's such an athlete. Um, you know, sometimes it's blocking shots unexpectedly, you know, or just, maybe I should say athletically at some point, you know, down the, you know, during the course of the season, I became, you know, I came to expect it. It was always still very impressive to me, but he's also really good at the verticality and just hanging there and staying with, with guys and, you know, they're shocked that he's, you know, that high in the air for that long. So it kind of, you know, it depends on how you deploy him, but, but absolutely as a weak side defender, he can be a, a good player in that, in that regard. So he's not outside of those weak side blocks and, you know, every once in a while, you're going to get like that on ball, ball jumper, he's, he's not a splash play guy. He's definitely not someone who's going to, you know, rack up just a ton of steals. He's not really a gambling type, um, and he is a little bit better when you have a, like a center to funnel when he, when he has a center, a defensive center to funnel players towards, um, but yeah, I, I think he's a really versatile, really, really good defensive player with a lot of ways that you can use them, um, you know, it just really depends on, on matchups. Yeah. That's, that's a really great insight because I think, you know, with, with Terrence Mann also as a perimeter stopper in that starting lineup, the Clippers have really lacked for, for years with really the exception of Niko Batum, um, someone at Power Forward who could be a secondary room protector. So Jones being able to provide that in certain lineups and configurations is a real, real asset. Let's go away for a quick break. When we come back, we'll keep talking about what Derek Jones, Derek Jones, Jr. brings to the Clippers and how the Mavericks are replacing him. Buick Enclave is designed to make together your favorite place to be with an abundance of thoughtful features like the hands-free power liftgate and with generous space for up to seven, your family will agree. Time spent together inside this SUV is time well spent. Enclave gives connectivity a starring role. Your family will stay connected to the world, even when you were on the move. Experience Buick Enclave today at Shortline Buick, 1301 South Havana Street. You do the drive-in. We'll do the rest. All right. Back here on the Lobbly Gem podcast with Tim Cato from DLLS, Tim, I just mentioned before he went to break Terence Mann, and obviously you have been covering the Mavericks, not the Clippers, but covering the Mavericks means you've covered a lot of the Clippers in the last five years. I think there's some concern among Clippers fans that Jones, Jr. and Mann are both similar molds of players. They're both perimeter on ball defensive types, both questionable shooters that defenses will sag off of, neither necessarily likely to create a lot of offense with the ball in their hands. Do you see it working with these two guys as the two and the three in a starting lineup in such a high-powered offensive era of the NBA? Or is that something that you think the Clippers will have to pivot away from and go with a guy like Norman Powell in the starting unit? It's a good question. I do think, so I've been saying that Jones is a little bit better defensively sliding down. I do want to clarify. I do think he plays big just because of this insane athleticism. I don't see him as someone. You don't want him going and guarding a four who's going to back him down. That's really the limitation that I'm trying to get at and why he's better, but he is someone who plays big. It's also worth noting that at previous stops, he has been a small ball five. Dallas used the sparingly. Dallas is really committed to him being a wing and playing on the perimeter on the offensive end. I do think that I would see at times when he attacked closeouts, it was kind of a rim pressure or the threat of the rim pressure. We talk about Marcus Smart had gravity just because he always shot it. I feel like I saw a little bit of that from Jones in the sense that he dunks so loudly that people are scared of his closeout drives in a way that they're not going to be scared of Terence Mann. People do kind of gravitate towards him at the rim in the threat of him putting it on the floor. Yes, again, he's inconsistent at that. As best as a straight line guy every once in a while, you're going to get a Eurostep. Even more rarely than that, you might see a turnaround jumper or something like that, but he's not really creating mid-range or he certainly doesn't have a floater or anything like that. When he drives, he's trying to get all the way to the rim or pass out to an obvious option, but he is somebody who has played as a small ball five. He has set picks and rolled on the occasion that Dallas did that. In fact, I believe it was the end of the Clipper series where they kind of used him that way a little bit, which was just kind of an interesting full circle moment for Derek Jones. I just think that he's a little bit more of a wing or a big offensively that I see the ability for him and Mann to coexist since I would never describe Terence Mann as that. And defensively, obviously, I think that will work fine. I think that can be effective. You can't have too many good defenders on the court and what limitations I named of Jones on that end. They're not going to be redundant. I see the concern and I can't promise you right now that for sure it's going to work, but I do think that there's enough versatility for Jones that is possible. Now, the one big difference here is that it might just be the Luca bump. As good as the pick and roll creators are for the Clippers, it is a step down. It's going anywhere else in the league just about would be a step down for someone like Jones and that was really a valuable part. I don't know how much were the Clippers a routing team? Are you guys tempo at all? It really depends when Kawai plays, no, they don't really run. Right. If it's James and guys, they might run a little. Dallas got up to top 10 in pace throughout the regular season and that was something that also benefited. It was part of the reason, or at least the stated reason, I think the main reason that Jones ended up starting from day one for Dallas was that ability to cover defensively for Luca and Kyrie, but what he did for the team's pace was another big reason. That was something they emphasized and unlike most of the time in training camp where you said, you know, where you hear coaches say, we want to be top 10 in pace, Dallas actually delivered on that and having Jones in the starting lineup is something that really triggered that. So it's possible that he's just the type of player who will do that again. I think James Harden is somebody who can recognize that and play to that if it's emphasized. But yeah, hard to say, I understand hopefully me just kind of describing the both sides of how I kind of see that question rather than coming down with a strong opinion on it, you know, helps, helps go some way to answering it. Well, I think it is. It's one of the biggest questions around the team going into the season and it is something that, you know, you really, we really just won't know until we see it. Is there enough offense in that unit? But I think the flip side is if you start Norman Powell next to James Harden, then now you, you know, you're putting yourself back on the on your heels defensively with those two guards together in the first unit. So it's, we'll just have to see how it plays out. I, in that, in that question between Terence Mann and Jit Derrick Jones Jr, one thing that I found really interesting is when I've seen Clippers fans and Clippers media people talking about this question and suggesting that Norman Powell may end up being a starter of frequently it is Terence Mann that folks have projected going to the bench with Jones Jr. staying in the starting lineup. I think that's a possibility. I'm not certain that it's a given. I think it's worth noting that with the contract that Clippers just gave Derrick, it's still less than the contract that they had previously given Terence and it's certainly less than the extension numbers they're talking about with Terence right now. Maybe fit wise, the size of Jones makes more sense as the three in that starting lineup. But I'm a little more interested in, in what you were talking about sort of the, the prospect of the Luca bump and how real that might be and what the downside could be here for the Clippers. You know, Derrick Jones Jr. is a guy who in his career has never really stuck in a team's rotation. He's been like a fifth forward in a lot of spots. He came to Dallas as a minimum salary guy last year who, you know, had trouble getting rotation minutes consistently in Chicago. So this is undoubtedly a by high move for the Clippers. This is the most coming off this season with Dallas is the most valuable Derrick Jones Jr. has ever been. It's the best season he's had in his career. And the Luca bump is a real thing. Where should Clippers fans concerned level be regarding, you know, a real regression for him? It's a valid question. Obviously he was also in a contract year, a, you know, a self chosen contract here. You know, I did a story about how he ended up in Dallas. I guess one point of optimism is that, you know, the two teams that were interested in him, that he kind of settled as finalist was Dallas and Boston. So the two finalists were both interested in him as a player, you know, in Boston. He would have been coming off the bench, of course, but, you know, in Dallas, he was not planned as the starter, certainly when he signed on a minimum, but he ended up becoming that for, you know, the majority of the season. That's, you know, so that's a point in his favor, but a point against him is that he kind of chose this path. He opted out of a more lucrative team option and, you know, him and his agent at the time, certainly there's a whole saga with such coming in that I reported a lot about on, you know, that, you know, him and his agent at the time, they planned this to find a spot that could earn him money. They thought that he was capable of doing it. So, you know, you always have to be wary of that, you know, not that he's going to, you know, all of a sudden, you know, stop working out or caring about basketball whatsoever, but, you know, he knew this was his chance to go get a payday and it worked. So that's a factor here. I think defensively, you know, I still think he will be a really solid player if you guys don't end up seeing him as a, you know, top 10, top 15 point of attack defender, I do wonder or my best explanation for that will be just that Dallas had a really good scheme where, you know, like just in a very small way, like usually a defender flips their hips and tries to funnel someone to the baseline. Dallas had so much belief and so much ability to always have a rim protecting center at the rim, you know, that they had their defenders flip their hips and funnel people into the middle because they just knew that the rim protecting centers would be back there and be able to solve those plays, you know, with help from someone like, you know, like Jones kind of trailing the play if he's slight will beat. So that said, you know, even, you know, even when they played Oklahoma City, even when Dallas played OKC in the second round, Shane Goldges, Alexander was probably the best player in that series and the only person who gave him trouble the entire series was Jones and there was times where he just looked baffled trying to get by this guy who just all limbs and, you know, just like quick and shuffling and, you know, can get up as high as, you know, shave release as his jump shot. So I genuinely believe that you guys are going to, you know, see a very, very good defensive player in him. All of the regression, you know, questions are about the offense and if he doesn't get as many open shots, you know, especially the wide open shots that he can convert out of decent enough freight. And if he doesn't get the transition opportunities, there is a possibility that he becomes a little bit harder to play on the offensive end, even with the money that was made for him, even with the way that he, you know, started most of the season for Dallas. Yeah. All right. Let's go away for another quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about what the Mavericks have been up to this summer and how the Western Conference is shaping up in next season. Buick Enclave is designed to make together your favorite place to be with an abundance of thoughtful features like the hands-free power liftgate and with generous space for up to seven, your family will agree. Time spent together inside this SUV is time well spent. Enclave gives connectivity a starring role. Your family will stay connected to the world, even when you were on the move. Experience Buick Enclave today at Shortline Buick 1301 South Havana Street. You do the drive-in. We'll do the rest. All right. Back here on the Law of the Jam of the Podcast. So Tim, the Mavericks very quickly pivoted when Jones Jr. signed with the Clippers to landing Naju Marshall from the Pelicans. And I, I had kind of gone into the free agency period, assuming that Dallas would be able to keep Derek Jones Jr. If nothing else because he was so valuable for them that he probably wouldn't get more than the mid-level anywhere and Dallas would give him the mid-level if they had to. And it ended up because of their pursuit of Clay Thompson and the navigation of the luxury tax apron and all of that, that they couldn't give him the full mid-level. The Clippers actually got him for less than the full mid-level, three years, 30 for Derek Jones Jr. Naju Marshall, who I think anyone who's looking for a forward this summer had these two guys on their five-player short list, ends up going to the Mavericks for slightly less three years, 27 million. What are your thoughts on Marshall's ability to, you know, replace Derek Jones Jr. And is he, I mean, presumably he's not going to start and Clay Thompson is going to be the starter, just overall that sort of dynamic shift, especially with all attack on another part to this prompt. With Clay Thompson probably starting it small forward, the defensive impact that that will have with Kyrie, Luca, and Clay all in the same lineup. Yeah, it's a big question. And, you know, the Madison's defense will not be as good, you know, after the all-star break, I want to say they're second in defense of parading. And they're not going to be that, you know? After the all-star break was also, you know, finally having Daniel Gafford, P.J. Washington. And, you know, this defense is going to fall, whether they fall to fifth or tenth or 15th, or I don't expect this, but somehow even worse than that, you know, really determines the ceiling of this team. And a lot of that is going to be on Clay Thompson, who I don't think is washed defensively, you know, maybe slightly contrary to, you know, what I've seen, how I've seen him described from some people. But clearly, he's not a guard defender anymore. And, you know, as much as I talk about Jones being able to scale down, I don't think Najee has best served in that way. You know, certainly there are impressive defensive clips of him guarding, you know, a Gil just Alexander or even a Kyrie Irving, but I do think he's, you know, he's a bigger bodied guy. He's not going to get around screens as well. He's a guy who has a splashier instincts when it comes to, you know, getting steals and things, you know, mostly getting steals, we covered that Jones is a good shop walker. But it's, you know, that's really the big question for this, for this team and whether this starting five works well or whether it's like an ongoing concern that, you know, one person plugged in, you know, Quentin Grimes or Najee Marshall or Dante Axum plugged in off the bench consistently works better for any, any of the five starters, you know, whether it's, you know, a time where Kyrie sits and all of a sudden you've got another defender out there or it's a time where, you know, Clay sits and you've got someone who, you know, just a little bit more some Pataco in Marshall. So, so that's kind of the big picture question for Dallas going into the, going into the year. That said, I do, I am coming around on Najee, again, I'm not, I'm not out here. I'm not ready to say he is definitely a better player than Jones. I do think that he will probably look as good if not, maybe it's slightly better just because of that Luca bump. And I've seen a lot of role players like this come in and have, you know, really good season. So Reggie Bullock came in and had, you know, damn near the best two seasons of his career or really the best season. I think it was. And then, you know, he fell off. Yeah. Yeah. Clippers legend. That's true. He's been a lot of places. He's one of those like eight franchise guys. Yeah. But Najee, Najee, he's got a lot more off the, off the dribble bounce in game or juice, I should say, not, not bounce. You know, he can do things, he can hit mid-range shots at a, at a pretty like efficient clip that, that makes it worth him taking them every once in a while, getting hit floaters, not a great finisher at the rim. I also do kind of bias through point shooting. He just had a career here. We're shooting about 40%. And it wasn't quite as many as Jones was taking in Dallas. But it was more than Jones was taking at any other previous point of his career. And Jones had a big boost in the Dallas system playing with Luca. And Najee hasn't had that yet. In fact, he was playing in a very poor-spaced team. If you kind of look at the percentage of how many heavily contested three pointers Marshall was taking versus, you know, Jones was taking, you know, it's, it's, it's like almost half of Marshall's attempts were, were pretty heavily contested. And so that speaks well to the idea that, you know, a steadier diet of easier shots playing in a, in a better offense, you know, should allow him to prove that that three-point shooting is real. So really up and down the roster, Dallas has way more three-point shooting. And after going to, you know, after losing the finals and five games and largely losing it, you know, partially because Luca was bad, partially because Kyrie was even worse than that and a lot because Boston was just that good. But Boston dared them to shoot about the breakthroughs and nobody could make them. And I don't think that's a problem on this team anymore. So I haven't specifically addressed Clay and, you know, I've kind of talked around and set the table for it all. But I'll kick it back to you and kind of see how all that sits. And then we can maybe get into Clay specifically. Yeah, I wonder, you know, I think you obviously it's a good point that about the above the break three being the missing piece there, I also wonder, you know, the gap, the quality gap between those two teams in the finals was, was large. And I don't think that I'm just, I, I both agree that adding an above the break three-point shooter would have been like, yeah, that's where Dallas needed support. And I kind of still think it would have been a, a not super competitive series with, with a guy like Clay Thompson in the mix. I think I agree with that. I think that Luca and Kyrie had to be better. Like Kyrie clearly hadn't shaken the demons and, and just, you know, speaking above the break three is like Luca and Kyrie were the biggest culprits of that. I know Luca couldn't shoot three's pretty much the entire postseason, except when Rodrigo Barrow was defending him, but this was his best shooting season. You know, the regular season, last regular season was, you know, it did a genuine belief that he took another level and, you know, with a guy like, you look at a guy like Naji Marshall, he just had a career through point shooting year and you're like, well, you know, you never know. It was a hundred attempts. Luca had the second most makes in the NBA and he did it at like a 38% flip on like 700 attempts or 800 attempts. This genuinely looked like, and you never saw, you know, he never really showed this in the postseason. But he genuinely looked like somebody who took a step forward in that area. And if he's a better version of himself in that finals and if Kyrie is just a competent version of himself and then you have more shooting around the edges, you know, it was, it was a very defensive series. Now I think Boston shot themselves in the foot a lot and that, that was a huge normalizer of a series that wasn't even that competitive, you know, but the, the, the offensive ratings were like, you know, I want to say like 109, 110 for, for Boston and Dallas was down at like 105 and, you know, so maybe there was some magic or, or, you know, witchcraft that allowed them to actually, you know, stymie Boston a little bit. I still think there's a talent gap, but, you know, it's not just clay, but it's, you know, a bet on Quentin Grimes, you know, being a reliable guy after Ben Schitt's, you know, Najee Marshall, you know, replacing the Derek Jones role and now he's a bench guy, not a, not a starter. You know, Tim Hardaway was unplayable, you know, if Tim Hardaway, you know, who was an important part of this team for a lot of the regular season until he just completely fell off, you know, clearly Clay Thompson's a better version of that and a better defender. So that's really where the question comes is, is Clay Thompson, if Clay Thompson is best just as a better Tim Hardaway off the bench and Dallas truly can toggle his minutes down to, you know, 15 if they need to, even though he'll often be around 25, I don't, I think objectively that upgrades a role that this team had that allowed them to have success. If Clay Thompson is a guy who's like, I am closing, I am not only starting every game, but closing every game and I expect to be played close to 30 minutes every night. That's when this gets a little bit iffy or because I'm not sure, I'm not so sure how much he can prove that that's still his best role in the NBA. I'm not positive he can't prove it, you know, it'll take a lot of pieces around him also fitting him and meshing and a lot of coaching challenges, but that's the concern for Dallas and that's the possibility where they actually got worse to me. I believe this team got better after making the finals and again, they're so much worse than Boston, this doesn't make them title contenders, it doesn't make them favors in the West. They needed to get a little bit better, but that concern is there, that scenario is absolutely there for me and I can see it playing out of that way that, you know, does actually show in this team, you know, just not quite replicating what got them to the finals last year. Yeah, I think if Clay were to settle into a sixth man role as the super, super upgrade on a 10 part away junior, that then you start asking, okay, how does Narshi Marshall replicate what Jones was bringing defensively and do you actually end up missing Josh Green at all? Now that you have Quentin Grimes in the picture, I like Grimes a bit more. But if, you know, if Clay, if he's healthy, yeah, if Clay is, you know, we can play offense actually. Um, if Clay is like, no, I'm starting at small forward 32 minutes a game all season long. And then like, and I'm 34 and I've had a bunch of knee surgeries and by default, because Kyrie and Luca are the guards, I guess I'm guarding D. Aaron Fox tonight, or maybe Kyrie will do some of that work. I mean, Kyrie was Kyrie impressed me defensively in that Clipper series this year in a way that I didn't think he would tap into. He impressed me too. That said, I don't think Kyrie is going to be impressing anyone defensively in like December. Yeah. And that's how Dallas gets off to, you know, that's how they bury themselves and they have a whole, whole, they got to, you know, take out of, uh, so that that's where some of this roster infusion and, and, you know, just, you know, lack of cohesion kind of hits. Yeah. And I, and I guess my big concern here is just that chasing that tactical tweak in adding that big shooting, like NBA finals proven shooting before the Boston Bre match that they hope to get, that the Mavericks may have made it quite a bit harder for themselves to get past, uh, you know, Oklahoma city and Denver and Minnesota and maybe even teams like the, you know, the Clippers and the Suns again next year. That's, that's perfectly valid. I've, I've obviously talked myself into the clay move a little bit more, but I'll tell you my first impression was just like, well, this can't be right. You know, and, you know, when I first heard, you know, I think I saw reports and I started hearing reports. I remember somebody texting me, you heard anything about clay to the knives and it was someone kind of inside the NBA and I was like, Oh, that maybe this is real. But my first reaction was like, this goes so against, you know, aging guy who doesn't bring physical defense who, you know, isn't going to be a just an athletic guy to put around Luca. Now you look over the past, uh, few years of team building for, for Dallas and yes, they've brought in a lot of athletes and they've made that a priority. I think it's fair to say that especially since the conference finals run, what now three seasons ago, uh, you know, the one with Brunson and Denwoody and Luca that, um, that roster had no self creation, it was all guards and guys who just converted for guards, but they couldn't do anything on their own. And one thing that I've seen, you know, is that Dallas recognizes that they're wearing Luca out so much during the regular season because he has to do everything and no clay is not going to go, you know, run a pick and roll and create a shot for somebody, but obviously a player like clay makes it easier. Obviously a guy like Najee Marshall who can, you know, drive a little bit more successfully and consistently than Jones did makes it a little bit easier on him. That's, that's something that Dallas, you know, even the Spencer Denwoody signing, you know, as, as kind of like the 13th man on the roster, you know, if, if he does, I don't think he's going to be in the regular season rotation, but I think he's going to be like the spot starter whenever one of their stars are out or at least somebody who's, you know, planning heavy minutes off the bench. And that's all intended to, you know, reduce the workload on the stars and, and make sure the roster isn't built so that, you know, it just doesn't function when Luca's not on the court. And in turn, hopefully Luca goes into the postseason and, and, you know, the, the near MVP of last year, the third place MVP of last season, you know, hopefully he's able to look like that guy in the postseason because he was, you know, he was good. He was, he was a good, you know, he was obviously a superstar and he had good showings in, in the postseason, but he was never quite that player. And, and I think that's a lot of where this change for Dallas is coming from. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think it'll be really interesting, especially for a team that made kind of a surprise, I think fair to say a surprise run to the NBA finals here two years ago, they missed the playoffs. I would say it was a surprise as well. They're starting a rookie center. They made it. Yes. Yes. And I think all of us, the Dallas, you know, yeah. So to see that surprise run and then followed by a move that, you know, it's probably that clay Thompson acquisition is probably it's the most interesting new player, new team situation for me to watch this year because there's lots of stuff where I'm like, Oh, I really like that guy's fit there. That guy's going to make that team a lot better for sure. But I don't necessarily feel like I need to see 20 games of it to really know. The clay thing just feels so wrong to me. I really don't like it, but it's a good team and a legendary player. And I'm like, it's definitely the move that I'm lowest on that I'm most scared of being wrong about if that makes sense as a way to describe it. And so it's in that sense, for me, it'll be the most interesting one to swatch in the first 20 games that does make that's a lot of qualifiers. It's like one of those, you know, the the this is the first time that someone has a 50, you know, a 30% level on a Tuesday of November, you know, with only seven blocks. But I totally get it. I think that's a very fair way to put it. I'm also very intrigued by it. I do think that clay is a good player who will help Dallas. It all comes down to what he wants, who he wants to be and whether he will do he will adapt to whatever role is best for the team, because there's absolutely a role on this Dallas Mavericks team where he makes them better. And to me, all of these questions come from whether he would accept that if it got to that point and and how much if it's just clearly not working game after game after game and it's a, you know, it's a process where Dallas kind of gets behind or just doesn't quite have it early on in this season, you know, whether once again, they're going to have to dig out of, you know, a, you know, a near five, you know, only three games over 500 in January. If they have to dig out of that again, and once again, Luca is, it's taxed and strained going into April. I do think that, you know, we're going to kind of see a similar story where he just can't make it through an entire, you know, potential finals run and maybe, you know, maybe flames out even sooner than that. So. Yeah. All right. Well, I think, I think that'll do it here for us today on the Log to Jam the podcast. Tim, thank you so much for being here. That's at Tim Cato on Twitter, DLLS underscore sports, DLLS underscore Mavs. Find them on YouTube. I think every day, Tim, is that right? Every day. Every day. I'm still adjusting that a little bit. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's supposed to be shows will count as, as days, but yeah, pretty much every day we're on there a lot, but, uh, it's a lot of fun and, uh, still writing, keeping an eye out for my stuff. You know, you know. Everybody knows the drill. Everybody knows the truth. Every day on the YouTube grind covering the Dallas Mavericks, uh, and two teams that have both made Western Conference finals and Mavericks, even an NBA finals and missed the Western Conference playoffs in the last five years, uh, and have met each other three times as well, uh, trying to see what their futures are going to look like with some of these new acquisitions. So thanks again, Tim. Thanks everybody at home for listening. If you liked the show, please leave us a five star review wherever you listen to us. And as always, I know that Tim agrees with me. Go Clips! Cross over to new possibilities with the first ever Buick Envista, now with short line Buick refined, versatile, intuitive, tech friendly, cargo loving, and best of all, Envista is fun to drive. The flowing exterior of the Envista is easy on the eyes, and inside you will experience a quiet ride. Thanks to quiet tuning with active noise cancellation, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, and wireless charging will keep you connected. Visit Shortline Buick today and experience all Buick has to offer in its new lineup of vehicles. At Shortline, you do the drive-in. We'll do the rest.