You know when they talk about the debate prep, they'll say, like, oh, they prepared and they prepared Donald Trump and I always wonder what the prep actually entails and Kamala Harris was so on point with her reactions. I wonder if they like, they brought in like a meme experts and they were like, all right, all right, Madam Vice President. So we need you to make as many memeable faces as possible. We need to give, she gave, she had the perfect meme gift face. Kamala Harris, it's a good face. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. What's up, guys? It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's so good. And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay? Every episode, I bring on a friend, I mean the likes of Amy Poer, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on. So follow, watch and listen to baby, this is Kiki Palmer on the Wonder React. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, that was quite the debate. Oh, man, I love saying the most random thing to see how you'll react. Happy podcast, everybody. How are you doing? How's everybody doing? What's up, Christiana? What's up, Josh? Happy podcast, I was expecting you to say happy. I know, I know, I knew that you were doing that and then I was, I was like, what could I say to throw you off? I was trying to be, I was trying to be that preacher who comes out and just, and just says the most random thing ever. Like, I'm never buying that again. And then the congregation just looks at them like, wait, wait, buying what? The Lord be with you. And also with you, but wait, what happened? What happened? Yeah, I mean, what happened is a good question. Yes. What happened indeed? This is, these are the episodes I sort of love the most because we are all in the most different places possible. So I'm in the Netherlands where I watched the debate between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris at three o'clock in the morning. Christiana watched it in California, the freest state in America. And then Josh Johnson, I'm assuming you watched in New York. Mm-hmm. Like, was it like a fight night in New York or was it just a regular watch the debate? No, it was like a fight night because there were moments where, okay, I've watched lots of boxing and everything. And whenever you pass a bar where the boxing is happening, there have been a few times in my life where I've seen a fight where somebody got knocked out, but they didn't move right away and it get quiet. And that's exactly what it looked like at moments where I would pass a bar. You hear the debate blaring and people just quiet. Like, you would think that Trump hit his head in front of everybody and was bleeding out his ear because the way that he would be talking and everyone, it wasn't even like no one was even giggling. It was like, this is weird. That's what I felt like I don't want to tip the plot here, but it felt very... Oh, I don't think there's a plot to tip. I feel like this conversation is one of those where if you are tuning in to this episode, you know, we're recording this episode like a day after the debate. You're going to listen to it two days after the debate. But I think everyone saw it. You know, there were a few questions I had for this that I know you're going to have great answers for. And our guest who's, you know, like a superstar guest joining us, Tracey McMillan Kotsam, she'll always bring a different perspective to any conversation. So I'm really excited to have her back on because I know she's a fan favorite. But yeah, I don't think there's tipping anything here. It's just like, okay, maybe the one thing I found myself asking was like, how much crazier can Trump actually get? Is that what you're asking? That's interesting. -No, really? -Yeah, yeah. -Really? I was like, because I maybe I'm not used to him or maybe I don't watch his stuff as much as I used to. I don't know, but is it just me or does he seem like he's a little deeper in than he was? -Yeah, he's a fool. -He's somehow both an old man and chronically online. -Yeah. -I've never... You don't see the two mix often. -Yeah. And you know what it was for me? It was because I kept thinking back to the Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump debates. And for reasons that we can't get into, she came across as a bit robotic. Like, you know, like a real politician. You know, if you're a politician for too long, you get kind of like very scientific about it. So her next to Trump, she kind of looked like the weirdo even though he was saying crazy shit. Do you know what I mean? Because he would say the crazy shit and she wouldn't react. Whereas, because Harris has all these facial reactions and she's responded to him like when he did the cats and dogs stuff, she was like looking around like, "Is he for real?" Because she was so like human and seemed less seasoned next to him. -Yeah, yeah, yeah. -He seemed even crazier. There were moments when I was like, "Is she going to slap it?" No, she's not going to slap it. She's going to say the right thing. But it was just like she was us. You know, because she was reacting to him how you would when you hear like a crazy man in a bar. Like what are you saying? Yeah, I'll pitch you this real quick. She looked at Trump the way Trump looked at Biden in the last debate. Like what I tell you, because remember that moment? -Yeah, I remember that moment. -Remember that moment? You know what it was? It was the line when Biden when he went, he started in one place and ended in a completely different zip code. And then Trump said, if I remember correctly, he was like, "I don't know what he said. I don't think he knows what he said." He was like, he was so honest in that moment. He was like, "I don't know what he just said." And to be honest, he was almost like, "Should you not throw the towel in? What is happening right now?" -Yeah. -And you're right. Kamala Harris looked at him the same way. 'Cause there was one moment where I don't know if she was concerned about being president or anything. I think she was like, "Y'all, this is elder abuse if we don't address." 'Cause I know y'all muted my mic, so I can't say anything, but somebody get him. The concern. They were generating moments of concern. -Tressi, it is so good having you back with us. Thank you for joining us. For what I hope will be the antithesis and the antidote to everything else we spoke about and experienced. So let me start by asking you this. Has your, not your worldview, but has your opinion on where the race stands or where America stands changed after watching Donald Trump debate Kamala Harris? -Okay. Maybe. Yes. -Oh, I like this. I'll take maybe from you any day. -I know, because I'm cautious. You know how cautious I am about this. I am always scared to be hopeful about Americans. We're interesting. We're interesting people, and so it scares me. [laughter] -That's so catchy. -What am I? -I don't have hope about Americans. -It is. I think that I feel a little bit more confident. One, I feel very confident about the Harris machine, which feels good. We talked a little bit about this, that her team around her seems to have changed. I went into this debate wanting to see, not just that they had prepared her, but that she understood where the electorate was and that she had a message for that, right? And that they weren't still going to be beta testing messages, that they had, you know, internal polling was consistent. They understood what she needed to do and that she was ready to do it. And I wanted her to show people she could win. Listen, I keep saying all people want at this point, the people who are likely to vote. Like, there's a huge swath of people out there, aren't paying attention, don't care, whatever. But the people who can be moved to vote, who might vote for a Kamala Harris, wanted to see some of what they saw in that debate. They want someone who isn't afraid of Donald Trump, big time, and they want someone who makes him look as crazy as they feel he is, right? There's this disconnect right now where he clearly is crazy to people who are paying attention. But if you go out there, you know, in the rest of the world and you brush up against other people who don't seem terrified of them, you can start the question if you're losing your mind. And so seeing her react to him as if he doesn't make sense, seeing her draw out the ways that he doesn't make sense. You just think that feels good to Americans, like, okay, not only am I not crazy, someone who seems capable sees it too, and they are willing to go toe to toe with him when it matters. Right, right. Well, here's the main things I wanted to chat about, you know, one was what do we think Kamala Harris did right? And why did it feel like it was more right than anyone who has debated Donald Trump before? And then obviously, you know, we have to talk about Donald Trump. And, you know, you heard my question to Josh and Christiana. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I feel like he's gone deeper into his own rabbit hole. I also wanted to talk about the debate as a format and as a concept. And then, you know, at the end of it all, just talking about like where we see America going from this. But let's stick with Kamala. I don't know about everybody else. I do not remember a single time when, especially Donald Trump was involved in a debate. And even conservatives, even MAGA people were saying, oh, no, this man got his ass handed to him. And here's, they're not saying it like he lost. They're saying it like, oh, we heard that Kamala got the questions before the debate. How did she have her answers ready? Which, by the way, showed me how little people now expect from their politicians that people were shocked. People were shocked that Kamala Harris could possibly do enough homework to know what they would possibly ask her before. Which is what you're supposed to know. It's the issues. And then there's a conspiracy theory going around. And if you've seen this, where they're saying her earrings are actually secret listening devices. And people were broadcasting, someone was talking to her in her ear while she was speaking. Which, I'm going to tell you, as somebody who does live TV, if that's the case, that's another reason that she should be president. Because if you can deliver a message while people are speaking into your ear at the same time, you like the ultimate, like you're the emperor of multitasking. So they said that. They said she cheated. They said a whole bunch of things. But the underlying thought, even in Magaland, was, yeah, I would do lost, which I've never seen them say before. I got in a lot of trouble, which is going to surprise you, I know, Trevor. I got in a lot of trouble a couple days before the debate, because I said I felt the start, not the pinnacle. The start of the Trump bubble losing air. I thought that even conservative media were open to considering that he was not Teflon Donne, right, that he had some vulnerabilities. And nothing about what I saw during the debate changed my mind. Again, he's not dead in the water. He's still polling competitively. I get all of that. I just mean, he does not seem as undeniable as he once seemed. And I'm not getting that from liberal progressive voters who have long hoped for that to be true. I was getting that from my read of conservative commentators, both in traditional media and online and social media, where, you know, the joke, he stopped being the comedian and he is starting to become the punchline, which I realized who I just said that too. But listen, yeah, he's shifting from being the person who was controlling the circus to becoming the punchline. For him to now be the punchline really does make him look diminished in a way. Do you think that was something that Kamala Harris is uniquely positioned to take advantage of? Because there's no denying. Like, if we talk about Hillary, and let's even forget Hillary for a moment. Look at every Republican that Donald Trump beat in his own debates to get where he got to. Like, is there something that makes you uniquely positioned to beat Trump in a debate if you are a black person and you've lived with black people in any way, shape or form? Do you know what I mean? Like, black people aren't as shook by Trump as white people are. Let's just put it out there. Yeah, because we've also been roasted before, like in life. Do you know what I mean? Like, black people aren't as shook by Trump as white people are. Let's just put it out there. Yeah, because we've also been roasted before, like in life. Do you know what I mean? Like, there are things that would be tantamount to bullying that have come from family. It's funny, immediately after the debate, I watched Fox. I wanted to see what Hannity and his friends were saying. And he had J.D. Vance on, and then he also had Rubio and Cruz. They were the surrogates that were out for Trump. And something I noticed is that they kept speaking about points that she had rebutted in the debate. So they were like, she's going to ban fracking in Pennsylvania, and she's going to do fund the police. And to me, these sound like things that Republicans were afraid about four years ago. Like, I can't even remember the last time I met an abolitionist who said defund the police. Like, it's such an old slope. Like, the conversation isn't even there. Yeah, and then I was like, the issue is they don't know how to attack her. Yeah, it's insane. Because to her credit, when we were accusing her of being the vice president who did nothing, the great thing is like, you can pin nothing to her. They're like, okay, so they're like, we can't say the black thing because that's not polling well. Let's not talk about her being mixed race because our white dudes at home with Asian and black wives are getting this stuff. Oh, well, that's funny. Right? So they're like, okay, we're not going to do that. What has she done? We don't know what she's done. Okay, defund the police and fracking. And what was hard about that is that that woman just went up there and was like, I have a gun and I'm pro-Israel. So it's like, it doesn't, it didn't line up with reality. Like, when she said she had a gun, I was very shocked. I was like, well, this is a scary woman. And I say that as a threat. Yeah, but you also say, you also say that as someone who does want a gun. I know I had my, listen, a woman that does get a gun has my full respect because she had to be acted out on them. And she has a gun. She was like, me and Tim are gun owners. And there were like these sharp turns in it where I was like, oh, they're big problem is that she's probably more of a conservative than Trump is at her core. Right? There if you look at it. Oh, that's an interesting one. Yeah. I was like, this is a Republican light. She'd never be with them because the parties aren't as good and they're not as good looking. Oh, this is an interesting taste. This is not a real Democrat. And I think it was like the Israel Palestinian. Was an amazing moment. Yeah. Yes, with the way she described that, she didn't describe that in particularly progressive terms and it would be actually quite hawkish by even Democrat standards. So when she spoke about that, when she called about gun ownership, when she celebrated being a prosecutor, like she wasn't hiding mind. She was like, yeah, I lock people up and you're like, I'm sorry, what? Then I was like, Trump, that's your problem. You're actually running against another conservative and she's black and Indian. What do you do with that? I wouldn't know what to do personally. I mean, all you can do is bring up old talking points. Like, call her a jive turkey. All right. I think Cristiana is onto something here. Not only did she give these hawkish responses, they were her best answers. They were her best answers. Her response to Ukraine, her response to the Israel Palestine question, if you are agnostic on what she actually said, I mean, they were the ones where she was the most eloquent. She was the most emotive, really. Like, I expected her to be a motive on the abortion question and she reaches for that a bit, but it doesn't feel nearly as natural as when she says, I own a gun and I arrest people. Like, that's who she is and I think that's who she feels like she is in the world and when you say that, next to someone who has only been pretending to be a cowboy. Now, I don't Trump doesn't own a gun. Trump is afraid of guns. I don't know if you've ever seen Donald Trump talk about guns. He's tick-fied. He's afraid of guns. Yeah, he's terrified. He talks about his sons hunting and he talks about them as if he has sent anonymous tips to the police about his own sons. Yeah, yeah. That's how Trump talks about his sons. He'd be like, my sons, they do a lot of hunting, a lot of hunting and they know everything about guns. Sometimes it worries me. It worries me a little bit. They got a lot of guns, a lot of guns. I don't know about that. And you see that even he's going like, what are you guys doing? We're billionaires and you're running around with guns. So that's an interesting point. You're basically saying, the both of you are saying, that one of the things Kamala Harris might have done right in this debate was sort of outflank Trump in his own backyard. Yeah, I think where she happens to have policy that is both fitting to like Republicans and is like weirdly democratic in a way and exploiting that I think is the best move you can do. Because this is the thing that is like undeniably cool in a way that is going to sound weird. But when Kamala Harris says, I have a gun and I'm a prosecutor, I don't care what you think, I'll shoot you and lock you up. That's it. That already is like so wild. You're like, yo, I'm kind of all bored. Even as someone who like doesn't have a gun and is someone who like, you know, doesn't love the justice system. I'm still like, damn, she gonna shoot you and lock you up. You gonna get God, right? And I think there's the other thing that what I like about what she's doing and what she did in that debate, I think it's very smart, that is something that I hope more Democrats do when the time comes in their own races, is that there are things that optically, Democrats, especially liberals don't like, right? Like don't like the police don't like justice or stuff like that, right? But my thing, and I've been saying this for a while, I've been saying this ever since she basically became the nominee, I was like, yo, I know you don't like the police, but you don't like the way that beat cops treat people. You like the police because when Donald Trump got indicted, when he got charged, when he got found guilty on 34 counts, didn't y'all celebrate how you do that without a justice system? Who can do that but a prosecutor? So it's like you do like it sometimes. It's just that powerful, evil people get held accountable so rarely that we don't get to celebrate the way that other people do, who like when poor people get beat up, if that makes sense. That makes complete sense. And I mean, yeah, this is, I felt that, but I won't lie, you've given me, and I think you've given everyone listening in a new way to think about it. And that is the thing, the secret weapon that Kamala Harris had over Donald Trump was that she may be more conservative than he is in real life. You know what I mean? Like Trump is a red in the streets, but a blue in the sheets. You know what I mean? He's basically a rapper, he's a trap rapper, yeah. Beyond gold toilets. Him and your dog have the same size. They really, they do say it's just in the same terms of how we actually live, right? Whereas like, Harris is, her life is quite conservative, like no child, like the things you stereotypically associate with a woman of color of her age, she has none of that. And what was interesting to me was watch her pull the Democratic Party. I felt felt to the right. I don't think, I think it's already a centrist party, but she pulled it more to the right, even on things like immigration. And I was like, oh, she clearly doesn't care to really pander to the left. Like, I think that they have for the last few years, especially on issues of identity, police reform, et cetera, there was no talk of that. Instead, it was kind of like this rainbow nation, where we give you a chance to have a down payment on a house, and you work hard and you get your health care. That was the message, which is like conservatism. If you work hard and you behave well, we'll help you out, right? It's like conservatism, like, and it was interesting for me to watch, because I'm like, she clearly doesn't believe there are votes to be accumulated on the left at all. I think she's made the calculation that these people are never going to like me, because I will shoot you and prosecute you, and I can't. There's no way I can change that record. However, there are independents that I can collect, or people that went from Obama one year to Trump the other, who came back to Biden, who may consider Harris, if she plays on cards, right? Well, before we get into Trump, let's do this. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, let's talk about the DJT ratings machine and how he is still able to leave everybody shocked, watching a screen going, what the... ♪♪ Okay, so Kamala Harris comes into the debate. She shocks everybody because she says everything that they thought maybe like a Trump would say on stage. But even if you take away Kamala Harris's performance, Donald Trump for me felt the way Joe Biden felt for Democrats when they were watching him debate Joe Biden. Do you know what I mean? It was that same feeling. Like, I put myself in the shoes of a MAGA supporter, and I was like, I would not want to be watching my guy experiencing this right now. You know, he seemed like he had it in the beginning, and then it was just... He looked 78. Yes, he did. Yes, he did. He looked 78, and you know what? You cannot, as a 78-year-old man, when you've been refuted, say, I saw it on the television, at least say TV, sir. You've got to say TV. Don't television sound like you in the past right now. Television is too long of a word for his dumb a thing, as you just said. You have to say TV. Let me ask you this. Do you think... And you know, this reminds me, you know, Josh of our experience with fights. So, Tracy, like, Josh loves fighting, like UFC boxing. You name it. If people are getting punched, Josh Johnson is there. And one of the times you will see Josh's eyes light up the most is when there's a fight that's lined up, where the person who was supposed to fight can no longer fight, and so somebody knew his jumped in at the last minute because they still have to have a fight, because it brings with it, like, a wild-caught nature. Like, Josh, you'd see Josh, it's so excited. He'd be like, "Ooh, you're going to want to watch this one." He'd be like, "The other guy, he doesn't know anything about him because the other guy was a striker, and this guy, he's going to choke you, and you don't know what he's going to do with submissions, and nobody knows how. This is going to turn out because he came out of nowhere." It feels like that here. It feels like he hasn't had any time to reconcile with the idea of going up against a black woman who was a prosecutor who is Indian and is everything that he doesn't know how to speak to or engage with. From the moment he shook her hand, this man looked extremely uncomfortable. Like, he looked like he had never shaken a black woman's hand. I think, yeah, Donald Trump identifies as someone who is good-looking. I believe he looks at confidence. He's so glad this is not a visual medium right now. He's repeat that sentence. No, I think if you look at the history, he was the New York blonde-haired, blue-eyed playboy with a lot of money. He was. It was like, this is the most eligible. If you look at, like, old articles about Donald Trump. Okay, okay. Oh, yeah, no. Which, it girl is going to- Mega women still love that. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Women were like, "This is a gorgeous guy. He's got money. He's got BDE, et cetera, et cetera." Even though he's 78 years old, he still identifies primarily as somebody who is attractive. And he looks at Kamala Harris, and he's like, "She's attractive, too. We're the same type of person." With Hillary, he's like, "Never." With Biden, he's like, "No, not as good-looking as I am." With Kamala, he's like, fourth wife, perhaps. You know, it's just like- I was going to say, she is the type of black woman or the type of woman of color that if he had any exposure to them at all, which, again, he does not, he would have given a pass. Absolutely. And she doesn't want his pass. I get where you're going, Chris. So I think there's this tension of like, we're the same type of people, because I'm telling you, this guy is not as like the political animal people make him happy. He's like, "Are you rich or are you hot?" Right? Yep. Yep. That's just the nature of it. Okay. Just having an attack. No, I'm so sorry. Oh, wow. I'm so sorry. This is not true. This is not true. I mean, I'm not sure if you're going to say that. I'm not sure if you're going to say that. I'm not sure if you're going to say that. I'm not sure if you're going to say that. I'm not sure if you're going to say that. 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I'm not sure if you're going to say that you're going to say that you're going to say that I'm not sure if you're going to say that you're going to say that you're going to say that Yeah, I don't think he's getting crazier. If I'm, if I'm being honest, I think that to complete your analogy of what you said about me Trevor, when it comes to a fighter stepping in on short notice, there's a young woman from Brazil named Natalia Silva, who's very talented. And she is undefeated right now. But in her debut in her UFC debut, she took it short notice just to get in, right? Yeah. She showed up kicking. And the other girl doesn't know anything about her. So she had no she kicks. So she's getting kicked. And she's like, this hurts. This crazy, right? And I think that I think that the kicks for Kamala were reacting to him. Like you said, Trevor, the way that we react to him because no one has done that before. He's been on stage with Republicans and he's been on stage with Democrats who tried to like keep it politics. And this was the first person who was like, what did you just say? Like, like, there was a point where it seemed like she she she paused. She paused as if she was allowing every single one of us at home to throw in the word that she was not saying. She paused at some point and she went to know that this former president and she paused for so long that you could do this bitch, this mother, she like she paused with so much intention. But I don't know. Okay. Like, like, let's talk about the cats, the Haitian cats thing, the cats and dogs, you know, story. This is what I find myself asking. I go, do you think Donald Trump actually believes that? Or do you think Donald Trump believes that people believe it? Or do you think he's only using it as a political tool? Because I don't know when I'm watching that clip. I've watched it again and again and again. I see what looks like belief in his eyes, but I can't tell if he just believes that people are saying it or if he actually believes that these Haitian immigrants are eating people's pets. I don't think he believes it with passion. I think that he believes it. I think he believes it. Like you said, that people are saying it and as a political tool. I don't think that he saw that news and that rumor, which is just a Facebook rumor and that he was like, Oh, y'all, we have to take action. This is crazy. I think that he had once again, the 78 year old old man reaction of like, I'm never going to be over there, but I believe what you're saying about what's happening over there. He had a very fox news reaction. The reason I think he believes, and I do think he's getting a little more unhidden is because for the past four years, he's just been stewing about this loss that he believes was stolen from him. Like everyone says, it's like, Oh, it's a conspiracy, but to him, it's true. And that's the powerful thing about conspiracies. And I just think he's kind of been stewing in his penthouse where every year is scrolling on truth social with his Twitter banner. In the graveyards of TikTok and Instagram, all the weirdest places on the internet. And I think he is, he does believe these things and he's getting stranger because I can't imagine Trump eight years ago saying that people are eating cats and dogs. I just know I can imagine him. Can you can you trust me? Yeah, no, I can imagine what I think has happened here is he is responding to the algorithm, where as traditional politicians respond to polling. The algorithm is feeding him what he wants. But what used to be true is that it was also feeding people like him that same content. There aren't enough people now on truth social, getting the same name about eating pets. And he thinks they are because you know how in your TikTok, you think everybody saw that same TikTok you saw, right? But if you go and try to talk to someone in the real world about the demure, you know, being mindful, being demure, they have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry, that is a very popular TikTok on my TikTok. Oh, no, that's, I think that's pretty is breaking through. That's great to know. No, no, that's that's getting up. But his or not. The algorithm that's feeding him, him information is coming through again. Nobody's on truth social that matters. His burner on Twitter wouldn't be tapped into the fire hose of ideas of Twitter. It is now in the, you know, in the, the echo chambers of Twitter. And so it feels real, but it would have felt more real to him. Four years ago, he would have said something just as insane, but there would have been many more, I think, hundreds of thousands of people who would say, yeah, no, I'm getting the same message. Yeah. Trustee, do you know what? The funny thing is I consider myself who someone who's chronically online to the detriment of my mental health. But I had never heard that cats and dogs thing. I had to, I had to look it up, right? And I'm someone that's like on the Internet, it's part of my job. So then I'm like, he's just, he is in QAnon land, so beyond even those people are like, what are you talking about? And I think that is a sign that he's crazier. No. I think he got it. I think he got it from the first I saw it actually was JD Vance. So I've tried to trace it backwards from where I first saw it, but the first example of that that I've seen on mine is some neo Nazi at like a town hall meeting who starts this whole thing sort of publicly. And I, you know, Facebook as well. But I think it was actually JD Vance. And I think we talk about Donald Trump and his missteps, et cetera, et cetera. I think the big thing we really take for granted this time around is how stabilizing a force Mike Pence was in Donald Trump's life. Like sort of to what you're saying, Tracy is like, Mike Pence wasn't in conspiracy land. Mike Pence was just a staunch conservative Christian man who believed that a woman's place was a woman's place and a man's place was a man's place and this was ordained by God. And that's what was going to happen. Like, I think that JD Vance is part of like a little bubble that's not helping Donald Trump stay on track. Because JD Vance has been saying the thing about Haitians eating cats and dogs. And Mike Pence, you find wouldn't have said that Mike Pence would have probably been like, this is not true or this is a scam. But what he would have gone to is he would have, he would have said to Trump, yeah, the real issue is immigration as a whole. Like, don't, don't get bogged down in the cats and the dogs of the Haitians in Ohio. And no, just focus on immigration. Talk about the country. And, and I think that now Trump has created a world that is only full of people who are in his tweet mentions and replies. Yeah, I think he doesn't have anybody saying to him, no, don't say that one. I exactly. I think maybe the worst thing that Trump has done is get closer to his son. I think that like, you've got to be specific about which one, because I think you saying Don Jr. Yes, I'm saying Don Jr. Okay, Don Jr. is apparently that the, you know, why he picked JD Vance and JD Vance is like feeding him the most like actually humorless, least charismatic taste and information. Because, because this is my thing. If you take away the, the, like, the cats and dogs thing for a second, if you're trying to get that point across, there are probably other stories you can twist that, that you have verifiable proof happened. This is a weird thing to bring to someone because it's, it's insanity, right? And so to have it brought to you and then to have it seconded by someone who's also like too, too online and too weird in his own way. And then you repeat it and then they leave you out to dry because they back you up on it, but they leave you out to dry because they're the ones that have to face the actual interviews in a way. So then when Collins is talking to JD Vance, it's like, those, those are rough, those are rougher interviews than people realize because you open yourself up to some pretty bad reasoning and dark stuff against you when you say that you want evidence that there's no evidence because we don't have any evidence that there's no evidence with stuff that you may have done or not done. Yeah, I mean, yeah, right, right. And so I think that JD and Don Jr have also taken to a place to look crazier because he's a gullible person that believes stuff and he's believing crazier stuff. And I just don't know if he's actually crazier, but I think I fully agree with what Tressy's saying about how he used to have his finger on the pulse, and you'll see, like with a lot of content creators because at the end of the day, that's what he is. Yes, yes, Josh. Like a lot of content creators, you'll see when they don't have the people anymore. That's when they go off the deep end. Yeah, you know, like, that's when you reach for the craziest. I stop getting the views, and all of a sudden I'm in the woods, like I'm just. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So one of the things about JD's fans is that he's not only weird, he's not only weird. My sense of him, and I feel strongly about this, he is not on Trump's team. He's not Trump's guy. He's not there. Wait, what do you mean when you say that? I think Josh is right. He's Don Jr's guy. I don't think he is there to make Trump better. I don't think he is there to moderate Trump. I don't think he is there. I don't think he cares really if Trump wins. JD Vance is Don's pick, and he is there for JD Vance in a way that Mike Pence, not because he loved Donald Trump, but because he was a traditionalist. If I am the VP, this is what a VP does. I believe in order. I believe in hierarchy, right? So I will toe the line. JD Vance is not towing anyone's line because JD Vance is there to be the more sensible sounding Trump eventually. He is interviewing for the top job while pretending to support Trump. So not only is I think he weird and probably feeding him some of the weirdest stuff, he has no impulse to make Trump sound better. Yeah, like he's, I think he wants to make it. He wants Trump to win, obviously, because he's on the ticket. But I think that JD Vance wants to get into the White House with Trump the way that you want to make a flight. Just barely. Like you, you want to slide in there because if Trump barely wins, but then JD can now rise up or start to make him look crazy while he's president. I think he tried to do House of Cards Game of Thrones, but he's not going to say this reminds me of everything I know about succession, right? He's some, you know, like he's a family plant to make the patriarch think he's losing his mind and to help facilitate this downfall. Not that I think Don Jr. is that coordinated, but I think JD Vance is that much of a savage. We'll be right back after this. The, the thing that I found myself coming back to for this debate in particular was it felt like Trump fell into every trap that Kamala set for him. We all knew about the trap coming in. We all knew. I mean, they even talked about it on Fox News. Some of the Fox News commentators were saying, you know, the main thing Donald Trump has to do is make sure he doesn't say anything sexist. No, no, no, nothing racist. Even if they bait him, don't say it, which I don't know why. I found that hilarious. I was like, the fact that you are out saying publicly that he shouldn't, he shouldn't fall for it. He shouldn't say something racist. I'm like, but why, why would he enlist? But anyway, and, and then he went into these rents. I mean, he went into like the solar panels rent. He went, he went back into Ishi Black. Like, I, I read it. I, it was something I read and the, and then it got to a point where to your point, Tracy, you know, where he went from being the person making the joke to the punchline. When he's out there, taking the illegal aliens who are in prison and they're making them transgender. Even the most conservative, right person, whatever, unless you are deep in like, you now have to ask yourself a question. You have to be like, wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. What did you say? Yeah. They are now taking illegal aliens and making them transgender. What? Like now your theories are in your own theories about what's, do you know what I mean? When I watched it yesterday, something I realized is that, along with the J.D. advances, he has a lot of ultra right wing people in his corner and they are the ones doing the prep for the debate. Hence the conspiracies he was spewing. And what I realized, I was like, you know, we've had these very public endorsements from like Dick Cheney, which to me is a red flag. You'd be like, why is Cheney endorsing Kamala Harris? But that's my, that's my own kind of like you're getting one of these very traditional Republican coming out and saying, yeah, we are here for Harris, right? And Mitch McConnell is nowhere to be found. Like all of these people that we know are operators and they kind of sanitize Trump the last time. They were like, okay, we're going to get behind him because we need a Supreme Court pick. Like we hate this guy, but we're going to fix him and make him look somewhat palatable, right? And they did a good enough job of that to get him elected president. And then last time they were like, well, we've got what we want from him. We're going to abandon him. And I think when I saw him yesterday and he was saying like these really wacky conspiracies. I was like, oh, he's been abandoned by the right wing establishment. Yes. That was all I felt. I felt the people that coached him and prepped him before were able to sanitize him and were able for him to say like, you guys feel broke or the economy is terrible. Right? Because it was like he was able to resonate like the message about Mexicans. They clearly knew there was enough sentiment out there that if you're anti Mexican, you can get away with it. But most people were like, Hey, shins, who the hell are they? People are like, you were trying to get us to have an enemy that we're not even familiar enough with Haiti in the psychic and imagination of Americans to be like, we consider them an enemy. Right? And so when I watched him yesterday, I was just like, it's interesting. You know, they talk about the deep. He talks about the deep state. But I'm like, well, the deep state have clearly said we're not helping you this time. That's what it felt like for me. And that's why I think he fell into all of these traps because before they would have said to him, just talk about the economy, talk about how high the interest rate is, talk about the fact I should work for him. Talk about the fact that this is how much it costs the gas in your tank. You know what I mean? Talk about the fact that, like, even with their affirmative action ruling, you still can't get your kid into the college that they want. Those are the things that are going to get people riled up. And he, for me, he didn't touch any of that. But trusty. I don't know how you feel. No, he missed I absolutely missed diagnosed the enemy because his information is both dated and again, extremely insular. And I cannot agree more about the deep state having abandoned him because all Trump's Trump's main power has been he was a very useful and willing idiot. Right. He was very useful for a strategy that has that had been in play for 30, 35 years. Right. This is a strategy that they had been executing ever since Ronald Reagan. He was willing to take it the final step because he has no actual real political career to defend is, you know, frankly to self centered to care about his legacy. The traditional things that a politician would care about. So he's useful for their purposes. He is not only less useful now because they've got the Supreme Court. They've got a ridiculous amount of gerrymandering. Right. You don't really need him. But I won't tell you, add something else. They were terrified by January 6. The deep state relies on the state. They do not want any, you know, who they hate? They hate those people who showed up dressed like Vikings. Looking ridiculous. They hate those people. They use them. Right. They court them for votes. But the fact that they came to their front lawn and we're looking them in their face, they hate that they never want to interact with that person. They don't want to interact with the Trump voter. They just want the Trump voter to vote for them. And so his willingness to invite them into that inner, to invite his crazy followers into that inner circle terrifies. I think the people who had been helping to shape him and make him more palatable and he's less useful to them. They don't really need him. And so abandoning them not only becomes easy, it now becomes self interested to do it. Yeah, you got to do it. If you have things and people start breaking things and these are broke people, by the way, a lot of these people are broke. A lot of these people spent the last of the money that they had to get to Washington to do this thing. You're like, hey, hey, no, not when the pores are breaking stuff. No, thank you. Right. And so you as an elite, you're like, what elite is there if y'all ruined? There were people that climbed the wall next to the stairs. I can't be around these people. The stairs were right there. And look, look, I'm all for, I really am. I'm one of those people that if you bring me a bad enough policy or a corrupt enough government, I'm one of those shut it down. Let's see, like, we may have to restart whatever, right? But if we storm in and you are climbing next to the stairs, I'm turning around. I don't care what our cause is. You could be right, but I got to go. I can't, I can't just be out here and you climbing next to the stairs and I'm on the stairs and we're going to do the same mind. That's a good point. That's a very good point. Oh, man. Oh, Josh, the idea that this all turned for Trump when they started climbing that wall. Oh, we're going to wrap up soon, but I think the two ideas I just want us to chat about. So the debate happened. It may be the only debate because Donald Trump has come out and basically said he doesn't want to fight Kamala Harris again because he beat her so badly. He used boxing, Josh, as an analogy. He said she was terrible and he absolutely destroyed her and he doesn't think it would be fair to go up against her again. So this may be the only debate. And, you know, Tracey, I mean, you spend so much time, you know, analyzing the mind and people and society. And let me ask you this question. What do you think a debate is supposed to be? And what do you think it is? Oh, so the debate is morphed into the ultimate political theater. I think it makes us feel like we have more direct participation and control in the political process than we have. Right. So the idea that I an informed voter, I like the idea of myself as being an informed citizen. Right. This is us taking the class. Right. This is us taking election 101. We sit down. We listen to the professors and it feeds into our sense that we make informed decisions. Right. We are the informed voters. The people who don't pay attention. They're the bad voters. They're doing it the wrong way. And that's a really seductive way to feel when the actual electoral process has become way more hostile to voters mattering to the process. Right. One of the reasons why Donald Trump is still so competitive is just that he's a Republican. And the process is set up for a Republican nominee to be competitive. You could literally put Curious George up as one of the major party candidates and he's got a poll pretty well. So, you know, this is a two party system with an electoral college process that means that the individual voter does not matter quite as much as we like to think that we do. You know, matters to turn out and matters to enthusiasm, that kind of thing. But the structure is really, really fixed right now. And the debate makes us feel empowered. Right. Makes us feel like we have some say. That's what it does, what we think it does anyway. I think what it has turned into in our media moment is a little distinct. It has lost, I think, actually some of its ability to compel attention. We watch it. It's our jobs to watch it. We love this stuff. Right. Yeah. I went outside the night of the convention and I live in a pretty literate part of the country where, again, people like to think of themselves as deeply informed voters. And yes, some people were watching it, but there were lots of people walking up and down the street watching the debate on the televisions in the bars going, wait, was there a debate tonight? And I think that is just as likely as the informed voter concept. And so I think it has lost some of its appeal as like political entertainment, which is why the people who do the horse race, political punditry are so obsessed with it. It's kind of one of the last things we as a media class have, where we all have to convene and we all have to pay attention. But my sense is that it's power with the general audience is waning, but it is still important, I think, for making us feel like we are participating. And it is important for a candidate like Kamala Harris, who is potentially transformative and unique to go out there before whatever public is watching to say, I am, you know, I'm saying I'm reasonable. And I can do this job. I think it matters to that type of candidate. Yeah, it was a, I mean, look, I'm happy that Kamala Harris got the shot. You know, in the world of fighting, you can only win the fights that you're given. You know, I will always be grateful to Donald Trump for giving her the opportunity to step into the ring with him because otherwise we wouldn't have gotten this. People wouldn't have gotten the experience when she came out and shook his hand and said, I'm Kamala Harris. It was such a slick move because it felt like it wasn't about him. It was introducing herself to us, to everyone out there. And I don't know, it felt like we are one step closer to seeing something that people thought would be impossible just like three months ago. I won't make the mistake of asking you where you think this is going to go, Tracey, because I know, I know what you say and I know how your brain thinks about this. But yeah, I am going to say thank you, thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us after the debate. Thank you for watching it with us. And yeah, you've given me a lot to think about, you know, I'll think about politics differently, I'll think about the debate differently. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Tracey. [music] What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sonaz Yameen and Jodi Avogan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle, Claire Smolta is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannah S. Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? [music]
