- Christian, a quick tip for you that I've learned. If you have a very traditional parent who hates therapy or psychology, a trick is to just switch it into Bible talk. So just say like, instead of saying like, you have issues or you have childhood traumas, just be like, they are demons. They are demons from your past. They are demons you have inherited from your grandmother. When you were very poor, there was a demon of poverty that came and generational inside of you. No, that's, I promise you now, it won't-- - I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna get out of my ego and be like to my dad. I just believe we have a generational spiritual curse that I wish in the village. Put on us and maybe you'll be like, okay, I wanna hear more about this. - Also, if you need any quotes, very few, very, very few Christians have read Ephesians. - Oh man. - You get a gospel raw, people are gonna be like, I don't think Jesus said that. You hit them with Ephesians and they're like, probably, I don't know. This is how we commit. You're listening to what now? The podcast where I chat to interesting people about the conversations taking over our world. Today on the podcast, we're talking about the owner of X, the artist formerly known as Twitter. He's also the owner of SpaceX and Starlink and one of the weirdest people on the planet. Yes, Elon Musk, who has not just read, he'll build himself on the very platform he owns, but seems to be a true believer that the woke mind virus is gonna destroy the world. So today, instead of assuming everything, I wanted to try and figure out what is going on inside Elon Musk's brain. But also, what does Elon Musk represent? Does he represent how white men or even billionaires who are white men can convince themselves that they are the victim? And is our culture as divided and radicalized as he makes it seem? And can we have some empathy for a person like Elon Musk? Well, joining me to discuss all of it, as always, are my good friends, writer, journalist, and professional hater, Christiana Ambaku Medina, and stand up comedian and human chill pill, Josh Johnson. Recording in progress. This is "What Now?" with Trevor Noah. This episode is brought to you by EA Sports FC25, the most authentic in-game football experience ever created. With FC25, we're getting even more ways to win it all for the club, with Rush, revolutionizing how you squat up with friends in-game. Whether you're playing ultimate team, clubs, career, or kick-off, Rush lets you dive into fast-paced 5v5 matches for thrilling gameplay. And get ready for a huge tactical overhaul with FCIQ, giving players greater strategic control and more realistic collective movement at the team level. FCIQ is powered by a new AI model using real-world data to influence player tactics through all new player roles. FC25 is the world's game. Play EA Sports FC25 from September 27th, and give it all for the club. If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It's the credit card designed for iPhone. It gives you unlimited daily cashback that can earn 4.40% annual percentage yield when you open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app. Subject credit approval, savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility. Apple Card and savings by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch, member FDIC, terms and more at applecard.com. (upbeat music) And we're back again. Happy podcast day. I'm writing a new theme song for the podcast. I hope you like it. Happy podcast day. They were friends and the world was ending, but then they hooked up any way to talk about it. Happy podcast day. It's a work in progress, but it works for now. Happy podcast day, everybody, how you doing? Happy podcast day, man. Happy podcast day. Josh, I'm so happy to see you. - That's good to see y'all. I've missed y'all. - Oh, you haven't missed us, Josh. You are now a mega-successful comedian who is gracing the pages of Vulture magazine and getting millions of views on your YouTube. I never used to understand grandparents until now. I show everybody your page and I'm like, I know him. - That's Josh, that's Josh, do you like the YouTube? Well, let me show you the videos of Josh, Josh. Look at this one. This one's got millions of views. - That's very kind. I haven't missed y'all very much because, you know, I feel like all this stuff is very new, but I'm very grateful that I get to talk to people who don't really like, how do I put this? - Care? - Don't care. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You know, like y'all care isn't your happy for me, but y'all don't care. Like if I lost my mind off it, like let's say I actually started like going full, like y'all, I don't know how to act anymore, you would be able to break me down to earth very quickly. It would take much. - Oh, hopefully. - Oh, we'd let you fly, my friend. Oh, we'd let you fly. - I think those are the stages of success, right? You're hitting that stage of success now where, you know, like when an asteroid is entering Earth's atmosphere, one of those like you burning up and it's getting like real hot. And then the next stage is Storkers. Soon you will notice a fan at a few too many of your shows. And then the final level of fame is just losing it. Just like you running down the street naked, screaming, I'm Josh Johnson. That, I wish that level of fame for you, my friend. - The reason that you can't let me fly just yet is because I am not at the stage where I can afford security. - This is a very valid point. Okay, not yet, Josh. - Nah. - We'll, as Christian always says, we'll pray for you. We'll pray that you achieve bodyguard levels of fame and success. Christiana, have you been my friend? Every time I see you, you look both more fulfilled and more tired as a mom. - Oh my God, yeah. I think my son is trying to kill me. (both laughing) We love him so much. Do you know what it is? We've had some really good friends of us. Their daughter has been spending time with us. So there's the juxtaposition between this beautifully well-behaved girl who I'm like, you're a dream child. And my son knew yesterday I was like, I need to put an air tag in his afro. I don't know if it's legal, but I need to just braid it down into the air. - You should actually. - So I know where he is then then I was like, but the radiation, I'm kind of a crunchy mom. I do vaccinate, but I'm crunchy. And so I'm like, he's just trying to kill him. I love him so much, but it's just like raising a boy as our friend Joe Opio told me, do you have a nuclear weapon in your womb, Christian? Do not take your eyes off the ball. - Yeah, but like, as Josh says, as long as you don't raise a killer, then you're doing well, right? - Oh yeah. - Like, did you ever do anything crazy as a kid? What's like the naughtiest thing Josh Johnson did? - Become a comedian. - That's probably the worst thing you did. That broke your mom's mouth. And you're like, I want to be a comedian. - Oh, that's actually, actually Christianity, that is it, because everyone thought it was going to be an engineer. - Oh, damn, Josh. You really were a good kid. This is, okay, this is how I know you were a good kid, is that when I told my mom that I was a comedian, she breathed a sigh of relief, and she was like, thank God, I thought you were going to be a drug dealer. (laughing) - She didn't even know what a comedian was, but it's not even like there was comedy in South Africa. There wasn't a stand-up comedy in that way, and she was like, thank God. And I said, do you even know what a comedian is? She's like, it doesn't matter, my love. She said, it doesn't matter, baby. I thought you were going to be, I thought you were going to live a life of crime, and I'm so grateful God has blessed me. (laughing) This is how different our lives were. I would have had the air tech, but I'm really excited for today's episode, because it's funny enough talking about hot messes, Christiana. There's one question that's been stuck in my mind, and I think it's only become amplified over the past week, and it's been, what has happened to Elon Musk? And before you stop listening, before I see your face, I see already, you're like, why are we talking about Elon Musk? Like, I know Elon Musk is Elon Musk, and I know people have sort of gotten used to him as being this polarizing figure, and this, but like, what has happened to Elon Musk? Have you seen his post online these days? Like, if you told me Elon Musk's Twitter was hacked by a MAGA bot from, I don't know, Russia or wherever, I would believe you. Like, there's some people who are Republican trolls, or they might not even be Republican by the way, they might even be conservative. They're racist, they're sexist, they were, whatever they are, they're whatever they are, but those people know that they're trolling, right? Elon Musk posts that stuff, he reposts it, and he says it like, in a real way, he's like, yeah, this is true, the woke mind virus is coming for us. No joke, no humor. I know some people might think, well, why are you talking about Elon Musk? Why now? Well, I think because over the past few weeks, we've seen Elon Musk and his world escalate to a point that I think we can sort of use either as a cautionary tale or just as a case study to try and understand many other men like him who don't have the billions for us to pay attention to them. Because if you're a billionaire and you act crazy, people pay attention. If you're just going crazy in a corner in the middle of America somewhere or in England or wherever these guys are in the world, no one really pays attention until there's like a riot or people are getting punched in the street or people are getting shot at an event. And when a billionaire goes off, whatever they choose to buy, whatever they choose, whatever influence they choose to use, that has ripple effects that are much wider than like you or I getting radicalized, do you know what I mean? Like if I get radicalized right now, I think I could convince three people. I think it's me and three other people gonna go wild in the streets. But someone like Elon, we've seen, you know, we've seen what can happen and we've seen the influence. - The most recent story for me, for those who haven't seen it, I'll try and sum it up real quick, but the most recent story actually comes out of Brazil, like the drama is coming from Brazil. What happened was, you know, Brazilian authorities reached out to Elon Musk and to Twitter really. And they essentially, it's not like they tweeted him, like, "Hey, Elon, can we ask a question?" No, what happened was, Brazilian authorities reached out to Twitter and they said, "Hey, listen, there are a few accounts on Twitter that we need to shut down because they're like, you know, they're sprouting hate speech and they're sort of like attacking people, et cetera." They were like, "These people are persona non grata and they're going against Brazil's laws and what we think people should or shouldn't be saying." Elon then turned around and was like, "I'm not gonna block these accounts because Twitter's all about free speech." And he's like, "Anyone can say whatever they want on Twitter, as long as it's not about me." And then he said, "He's not shutting the accounts down. Brazil's Supreme Court came back and was like, "Hey, we'll shut Twitter down." And then he's like, "Fine, shut it down." And now, while we're recording this at least, Twitter is shut down in Brazil. So I was looking at the story and I was going, "When you are willing to shut down a part of your business that has 20 million users and you've lost like, you know, whatever, 80% or whatever it is of their advertising, I then go like, "Man, Elon, I think he like believes this shit now." - Yeah, yeah. I was like, he's gone full on in here to his ego. Like whatever this persona is that he's done in, he's owning it completely. In a way, I don't think we've seen before because now he's willing to lose money. And which billionaire wants to lose money? - Yeah. - But here's the thing, is it ego or for me, it seems more like somebody who believes in a cult or like in an extreme religion or cause those people don't care about money, you know? So I remember the first time Elon tweeted about like the woke mind virus. But now I've reread all of those tweets. And I realized that Elon actually believes that there is a virus that has infected people all over the world and it's making them woke. And because of that, people don't have like critical thought and he's on like a quest to save these people. He talks about it like there's actually a person working in a lab in Wuhan, studying the coronavirus and like woke mind virus. - And for help me understand, woke mind virus for him is like trans rights, diversity and inclusion. - Yes, yeah. - It's feminine. We've been making choices about their bodies. - Yeah, yeah. - Like super crooked. 'Cause I know he has a bunch of kids to counteract the woke mind virus, right? - He does, he does. - 'Cause I'm just trying to understand the philosophy, if that makes sense. And maybe then I can, I don't want to have empathy for Elon Musk 'cause I don't think billionaires need empathy. - Billionaires are people too. - Billionaires are people too, but like-- - They have feelings, just like the rest of us. - Yeah. (laughs) - They have billions more feelings than the rest of us in fact. - A billion more feelings than we have, that he's kind of like a cipher for like white men that get radical. Or do you know, I won't even say white men because we live in an Andrew Tate world. And I think-- - Yeah, yeah. - Andrew Tate fans love Elon too. So it's just like young men between a certain age who are radicalized and afraid of wokeness, the woke mind virus, but I don't understand how someone like Elon gets infected. - Yeah, but that's so maybe that's-- - Or doesn't want to get infected, like help me, help me get that. - Okay, so this is how I understand the woke mind virus. I've been delving into that world, which Josh just like casually strolls through this world all the time by the way. So we're gonna rely on you, Josh. Do you like take strolls through like the most poisonous parts of the internet and then just come out smiling? - I know, still a decent guy. - No, this is really what Josh does. So okay, the way I understand the woke mind virus is this. People go, the woke mind virus to them is a bunch of people who are no longer able to look at the world logically and have become super soft and are all about inclusion and caring about other people, but at the expense of the planet and of people, and they sort of like think that women are superior to men and they think that up is down and down is up and there's no gender and-- - You haven't said anything wrong here. I'm like, I'm a women better than men, you had to be there. (laughing) - So you have the woke mind virus. - That's just-- - Yeah, you have-- - You have the woke mind virus. - Okay, okay, but Josh, do you understand it differently? 'Cause this is what I see it as. - So it is just a sort of worldview that a lot of these guys don't see themselves in and so that's very scary, you know what I mean? I think that a lot of it is literally like, one of the reasons that there's a whole talk about how the woke mind virus thought leadership is a direct pipeline of like early to late stage divorce dad. So it's like, I'm not saying people actually say this or believe it, but this is how it feels, right? Is that no one really needs a dad. So then if you are a man as part of a family unit and then your wife divorces you and the kids live with her, there is this notion socially that like, you are the least important component of that family unit. - Right, right. - So then you are sort of off in the world by yourself, this is how a lot of guys get red pilled, this is how a lot of guys like just fall into like these rabbit holes, right? Well, with the woke mind virus sort of thing, it kind of tells you that a lot of your problems are not necessarily your own personal failings or anything that you can really do, it's more that there are like cultural movements and social ideas that are pushing your family away from you. So it's like any other thing where you could either take responsibility for yourself or be like, there's a whole movement working against me. You know what I mean? It's like, you could go to therapy or you could develop a stronger relationship with your children by trying to understand them or you could be like, you all are sick and I'm the only one that's well. - Got it, that's helpful. - Okay, but-- - Still don't feel empathy. - I doubt we're gonna get you empathy at any point in this conversation. - I want to, I want to, if you can-- - No, in this one, I honestly don't know with you for Elon Musk, but okay, two things, Josh, one. Firstly, maybe this is just me digging too deep. I don't understand how these guys have missed what the red pill was about. Like, I find that ironic that all these people are talking about taking the red pill and they're like, I've been red pill, I see the truth and the red pill in the Matrix was literally an allegory for being trans. - So, first of all, I think it's very funny that people who are anti-trans use like the, you know, the movie metaphor, you know, that the Wauchowski is created to talk about being trans. That's the first thing. And then, the second thing is, I would get it if it wasn't Elon Musk. Everything you said, divorced dad economically, no job, no, that this man is a billionaire. So, I want to know, what is it in his brain that connects him to somebody who doesn't have a job, who doesn't have prospects, who feels angry and only important when they're on the internet, hidden behind their handle? - Can I be a shit psychologist? Like, Trevor, you're somebody that's entained, like, a lot of success, right? But when you look in the mirror, you're still-- - By the grace of God. - By the grace of God, shout out to-- - Yes. - Anti-petition for our players. - Yes, yes. - But when you look in the mirror, there's a part of you that's still like a young boy from South Africa, like-- - Okay. - Like, the fame, the money and all of that, like, who you are at your core, sorry, in a child, like, the success doesn't change that who you are fundamentally, right? So, my argument with someone like Elon is that-- - Oh, okay, this is interesting. - He's still, like, a lot of people who do tech is like, it's kind of a fear-based job in a way, like they're in the future 'cause they think there's so much wrong with the present. And I don't think Elon's someone that's done the work to be like, I'm gonna deal with the fears I have as a young white male in the world because I do think their fears are valid. I think we dismiss them. We're like, oh, you're a white man, you don't have any problems, like, still a human, right? He hasn't dealt with any of that stuff. So, when he looks in the mirror, he doesn't necessarily see this, like, billionaire titan. He's still, like, a scared young man running from whatever he's running from. That's why I think he's vulnerable to it. But, Josh, I'd love to hear. - You think-- - So, I think outside of money, one of the biggest issues is that you look at it in the political sphere, you take us out of that for one second. Elon's whole worldview is to a certain degree what Christian is saying. He lives all of his sort of worldview and all of his perspective through that fear basis. It's one of the reasons he wants to go to Mars 'cause he's like, guys, his planet's dying. It's one of the reasons he's so scared of AI until he can catch up to AI himself. Like, and the AI example that I just gave is taking it back to the politics for a second. You know, he seems like someone who has been fairly, and we can talk, you know, we can obviously talk about what that spectrum is for him, but fairly conservative, you know, throughout the years and just maybe milder. But conservatives, one of the main ways that they address and mitigate their fears through control, right? So if they're afraid of something, they're like, we have to control it. If they're afraid of another nation, let's beef up the military, whatever. And so you see him trying to control speech because he's afraid of the loss of quote unquote, free speech. And so I think that a lot of his obsession with controlling and having a say in overall discourse and in cultural moments is because he is afraid of this same thing. And a lot of what I was describing before with that sort of divorce dad to like radicalized pipeline, you can't buy this stuff. I don't care how much money you have, you can't buy a relationship with your kid. - Okay, okay, this is interesting as an idea because, you know, when you plot Elon Musk's journey out, you know, I'll never say he was liberal, please don't get me wrong. But he at least presented a more neutral tone. You know, Elon would commonly, he'd commonly post, he'd say, you know, we gotta focus on both sides. I think both sides have great ideas. And even if you look at everything he created, right, he, everything Elon made was for the better, like for the greater good, for the environment for, I remember a time when Tesla owners were seen as like, people would call them gay, for instance, on the internet. They'd be like, ah, you driving around in your gay electric car. - Super progressive car. - Yeah, it's like you got these, and everyone in California had to think of all the places that bought Teslas first. It was like California and Norway, you know what I mean? This is where like Teslas were everything. And then people in like the red parts of America and conservative parts of the world were like, I'll never drive that piece of trash. I'm not gonna have a self-driving car, might drive me to communism. And then now, now the Cybertruck has become the symbol for like testosterone. You know, you buy the Cybertruck and a testosterone supplement comes free type thing. It's like, yeah, I eat red meat raw. And I don't know, I'm actually intrigued. I feel like you two are finding more empathy because there was a part of me that thought Elon was doing all of this because he saw it as a shrewd business move. You know, like Elon realized if I can get Trump's base, they don't question, they flip and flop. As long as they with Trump, they'll stay on that course. And so part of me thought, is this guy thinking to himself, if I can get these people to like my products, then I'll always have a user base. And it seems like both of you are saying, no, you think he's actually like scared in real life. I don't think I dug deep enough into this initially. But now both of you have made me wonder if Elon has felt a personal, either betrayal or a personal seismic shift in his life because he has a trans child. - I think it goes before that. And this is me being on my psychology. - Do it, do it, girl, do it. - I think Elon had a child that died very young. I think they were like six, seven weeks old. Don't, I can't, don't quote me. I may be wrong in the dates. And I think that when you, being around people who have lost children really long, someone has miscarriages, there's nothing that makes you feel more powerless than something that you thought was gonna be permanent, being ripped away from you prematurely. And after he had, and it was a son that he lost. And then after that, they did IVF and had twins. I think one of the twins now is a trans girl. And I think he is still trying to recover from that wound of losing a child and has never owned to own up to it. And he wants sons. I think that he's like a real patriot. And there's between that loss and now having a son that he discovered is not a son, and it's going, I'm like, I'm a trans girl. It's split his brain in half. And rather than deal with that grief, 'cause you read the testimonies, a lot of parents of trans children. And they're like, it is a real grieving process, right? Like, you're losing one child again and you're gaining another and he is still in the loss. And he is refusing to see what he's gained. And he needs somebody to blame. And it's very different. You can't blame someone for SIDS if you lose a child very early. You may blame yourself, but you know, that's not rational. And I think now having this trans child, he's like, I can blame Twitter. So I'm gonna buy that thing. 'Cause they got all these bad ideas from Twitter. And rather than being like, let me just sit in the grief of like, okay, yeah, I've lost a son, but I've gained a daughter. And he's not able to compute that. And he's just doing what a lot of parents do when they, you know, find out they have a trans child and they just look away and they've rejected entirely. That's how, and I also do think he's a bigger, but I do think there's like an emotional complexity of any parent you raise one thing. And if that child turns around to you and says like, if Obi came to me, I was like, I don't believe my name is Obi. I'd be offended 'cause I'm like, Obi's a great name. That's the foremost. (laughing) But then like, you know, a child comes to you and says, I'm a different gender. And that's something I've thought about. How would I handle that? And I'm someone that's very progressive. And I'd be like, okay, I'm supporting you 100%. But there is a mourning period. And I don't think he's like, I don't want to say sophisticated. I think he's just still in his very primal emotions of a dad and being like, no, you're supposed to be my son. And I think anyone, no matter your politics can kind of empathize with that, even if we don't empathize with his like his behavior afterwards, which I think has been really disgusting. - I'm curious what you think about the parent thing. - But before we jump into that though, can I just say we have reached empathy for Elon Musk? You like at the beginning of this conversation. - I think as a parent, I think as a parent, you have a fantasy that your child will be. So I have empathy of like the ego death that you need to experience as a parent. But I think the problem is he hasn't had the ego death. He's just been like, fuck you. I'm not gonna recognize your gender in the way I should, which I think is actually, I think it's bad parenting, which I don't have empathy for. - Look, I'm not labeling you as a fan or anything. I'm just saying, Josh, you are my witness. And so is everybody listening to this? Beginning of the conversation, Christiana was like, there is nothing that will give me empathy for this man. And now you saying that, I'm not even joking. Obviously I'm teasing, but yeah, there's a part of me that now goes like ouch, like, oh man. We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by EA Sports FC 25, the most authentic in-game football experience ever created. With FC 25, we're getting even more ways to win it all for the club, with Rush revolutionizing how you squad up with friends in-game. Whether you're playing Ultimate Team, clubs, career or kickoff, Rush lets you dive into fast-paced 5v5 matches for thrilling gameplay. And get ready for a huge tactical overhaul with FCIQ, giving players greater strategic control and more realistic collective movement at the team level. FCIQ is powered by a new AI model using real-world data to influence player tactics through all new player roles. FC 25 is the world's game. Play EA Sports FC 25 from September 27th, and give it all for the club. This episode is brought to you by Ricola. I think we can all agree that having an irritated throat is one of the worst feelings. Thankfully, there's an easy solution. Ricola Cherry Drops. It provides the soothing throat relief you need and even better, it's packed with flavor. So you can make every day more delicious and still feel great. Try Ricola Cherry Drops now to find out where to buy it near you, visit Ricola.com. (upbeat music) We're talking about Elon Musk. But I feel like because he is somebody who A is in a position to ascend to a high level of power. I mean, Trump has pretty much said if he wins, he's gonna put Elon Musk in charge of, I don't even know what they call it, optimizing the government. - Yeah, yeah. - Governments aren't supposed to be like, that's another topic for another day. But I go, okay, if Elon is gonna ascend to that position, and if the world is full of men who are experiencing the same feeling, is there a way where we can figure out what the thing is? - Yeah. - You know what I mean? - Yeah, you know, it's really funny because when we talk about like powerful white men who feel powerless, which I think describes Elon and Trump and, you know, a lot of men who've been radicalized, people like myself generally say, well, white men still have the power. Which is true on like an objective factual level, but we all know there's like a cultural feeling of change. - Yes. - Whereas it's like the world we are heading towards, their future is not guaranteed in a way it was 50 years ago. Right? - You know what's funny is I don't agree with that. So I think the one thing, the only thing that like powerful white men have lost in the grand scheme of things is their success and power being tied to their popularity. That used to be part and parcel, you know, in a weird way. In a weird way, we lived in a world where, if you were the king, then people clapped for you. And if you were the CEO of a company, people lauded you and people, and now in a weird way, the one thing that they've lost is just like the general swag on the street of someone being like, yeah, I don't think you're cool. I think you look funny when you stand on the back of your yard even on, you look like the guy from Dune. - My feeling is sure like they're not... I disagree with the cool thing, 'cause I think for the last 50 years, especially like in the American pop cultural imagination, call has been a black man who plays athletics, like black people. - Cool in power though? - I'm like cool, soft power and all that different thing. But I think what they're not used to is the scrutiny that comes with the job now. - Oh, okay. - You're a white man. I have people in my family that be like, ah, so white person doing it, let's go over there, 'cause it's got a word. - Oh, definitely. - This idea, the colonial residue of white people means competence and excellence and being good. And now people are like, we just think you got the job because you're a white man. And that's effing with them, because for a lot of them, like Elong, we're like, the emperor actually has no clothes. - I think there's a name for this syndrome. I forget what it's called or like a... It's a thing that happens in society, but oftentimes we will... - No, it's mind virus. - No, you asshole. There'll be a thing that happens where people will assume your level of success and knowledge based on previous successes and knowledges. - It's the opposite of imposter syndrome. It's like... - Right, right. But basically we go, because Elon Musk is a billionaire, he must know more about ethics than we do, but a lot of people don't seem to realize how hard it is to lose money when you are a billionaire. Like, it's very difficult. Donald Trump is a perfect example. That man has done everything that you can do to lose all your money. And he somehow keeps bouncing back just because he has it. - It's... - You know what I mean? - To the point that I cannot... I need to see this man broke before I die, because how do you own a casino and lose money? That's like, take back in the day, right? Imagine back in the day if a plantation owner had to shut his farm down and go, "You know, this economy." No, no, the labor is frickin' old! And so that's what gets me about... So to your point Trevor, yes, but also to Christiana's point, we used to equate in the 90s and the early 2000s, really equated large sums of money with the genius. Like, you'll see a lot of people in old interviews and everything be like, "No, Elon's an actual genius, he's a bonafide genius." And then it's not until later that people are like, "Wait, his dad owned a mine?" Oh, I didn't know his dad owned a mine. - Right, but I think to be fair, we shouldn't conflate two things. I do think Elon is a genius when it comes to many things. You can be a tech genius, but be completely inept at understanding society and sociology and how humans actually work and function and... - Yeah. - Yeah. Okay, but here's... You know what I blame, I blame... Maybe I think Obama has a lot to... I think Obama should be blamed for a lot of this actually. - Tell me more. - I think Barack Obama didn't just take the idea of who the president of the most powerful nation should be. He also imbued within it a level of coolness that nobody could achieve. You know, maybe like more country concerts and maybe... Like, I don't know, I think Obama like sort of... He did, what do they call it in baseball when you round the plates and you do a little dance and you know when they go like, "That's excessive celebrating." Oh, that's in the NFL. I don't know which sport it is. - Well, the point is I see what you mean. I see what you mean, Trevor, but he was just being black. Like, I can't stress just enough. This dude already did well to not drop an Edward or Mitch McConnell the entire eight years that he was in office. I don't think we could go back and like scrutinize later because I think that to a certain degree, nothing he ever did was gonna be enough. - There was actually no tight rope that he could walk tight enough to like navigate that. - I think we can. I think everyone is familiar with code switching. And I think Barack Obama stumped a little too hard in the final position of power. And I think people like Elon Musk looked at him and they were like, "What has my world become?" And who am I in this future world? 'Cause the president was like that last position. - Yeah, black men were always cool. Black people were cool in music. They had taken sport there. But there was one place, one place that I must stress didn't involve entertaining people. - And that's a really important one. - So Trevor, you're drawing a straight line. You're drawing a straight line from 2008. - Yes. - Obama becoming president and imbuing this very official office with some call. I'm trying to follow your argument here. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And then up into all the things that happened, whether it was black lies matter, me too, trans-inclusivity, like all the social movements that happen in that time. - Yes, yes. - And then we come to present day Elon Musk who has seen how Trump has ascended to power as a react Trump also being a reaction to Obama. I'm just trying to attack you all now. - Uh-huh, uh-huh. - 'Cause what I'm trying to say is that Trevor's blaming a black man for all of this. And then-- - What I'm saying is, I'm saying we must-- - Do you think Elon knows he's, do you think he's aware of the forces he's reacting to? 'Cause what's trying to say that this guy is fairly intelligent. - It's not how intelligent doesn't mean you're aware, you know? - So you think he doesn't even know that, like I am so afraid of not just black male power, but feminine power and trans power that I'm willing to become a full-on right-wing bigot. I'm not even convinced, I'm just trying to find the thing because, and I know it seems like I'm just trying to turn it on its head, but I'm not, the way Elon talks about like a woke mind virus, like he's almost got like a broke mind virus. In fact, in fact, Christiana, I'm even going beyond this. I'm not just going, I'm gonna take a brave step and I'm gonna ask the question here. I'm gonna say, not, I'm not even just saying Obama, I'm asking this question, is it possible that the left has radicalized white men? And I know this is a controversial question to ask, but I'm gonna ask it because we have to discuss these things because we cannot act like these people are not getting radicalized and I would like to know why. - Okay, to go back just a step, because I actually don't, everyone knows I'm an Obama hater if you know me in life, you know, I'm not, I think he's a gorgeous man and I'm happy he's rich 'cause I love when black women have rich husbands. (laughing) - That's the most, I really want to hear every single word that you have to say, Christiana, but that is, I think, pinnacle. This is gonna go down as a benchmark in my life. Well, the most hater things a person can say because you literally say, I hate him, but I'm so glad that his wife could. - He is black and he's rich 'cause you know, that's black women, we don't always win when it comes, you know, I imagine anyway, I'm gonna behave, I'm not trying to get canceled, I'm coming back, I'm coming back. So as the resident Obama hater, I actually don't find him that progressive. I don't think he's, like bar his identity, there's nothing like revolutionary and radical about him. So I struggle with the notion, if we are tying the left to Obama, that is hard for me because I think he's just a centrist. - Here's what I'm saying, just to answer that point. Think about how many black people were dating a white person, were hanging out with white people, just wanted to eat food in a white restaurant. Their policies, we didn't even really know, does that make sense? Just their existence and their presence in that space made them radical. And so I'm saying, I don't disagree with you in terms of how radical Barack Obama was, but I do think him occupying that office was a radical act for many people. - Yeah, it's a radical symbol. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, perfect, perfect, perfect. It's a radical symbol. I, so, and I want to not conflate my issue with leftists, 'cause I think leftists, their default position is not to attain power, it's just a critique it. They just want to be like, oh, you're this. I'm making you feel bad, oh, that's not enough. I hate this person, I hate that person. And then okay, what's your solution? We're not here to talk about a solution, we're here to burn it all down, you know? There's foolishness. So it's just like, and that type of very annoying person, being around them all the time, can push a certain type of person to the right, but I believe that was always in them, right? Because I'm somebody that, on the hierarchy, I'm at the bottom, I'm like foreign, I'm black, I'm a woman, I look very African. But I'm not like, I hate white people. I'm like, I take them by a case, my case, my case. - Individual applications, please. - Yeah, no, 'cause it's just like, that hate is not in me. So when we say this argument of like, sure the leftists can be really annoying, and hectoring and lack empathy for the quote-unquote the other side, but that doesn't justify you then being like, oh, I'm gonna keep these Nazi accounts up. I think that there was always a part of you that was quite dark, and now you have an excuse. We have a reason. - Okay, okay. - You can be like, oh, it's because of the left that we're getting these Elons, and I'm like, no, these were kind of broken young men and boys before the left, even said or did anything. That's kind of my position on it. - So here's one counterpoint I have to this. I do wonder sometimes if we've created this world of buffet politics that has sort of meant that people who like one aspect of a certain politic find themselves with a group that they may not necessarily agree with initially, but then slowly come to agree with on everything. And I think one of these spaces is humor. It's funny, like we're saying this joking here. We go, oh, I don't wanna get canceled at all, but there's also like a true element beneath that, right? I've definitely noticed that when Elon really started switching over, at least publicly, it's when he would tell jokes online. He told, he would post jokes. A lot of the time they were retweets. It's not like he was writing any comedic genius, but he would retweet something that he thought was funny. It was lewd, it was sexist, it was racist, or whatever it was. It might still be funny, by the way, but it was those things. And the response that he got from let's say left-wing media and all of it was always, Elon, how could you post this? How could you do so? And people were like, ah, Elon, you need to be canceled. And I noticed a lot of guys on the right were like, yeah, that's what we need. A powerful CEO who's not afraid to tell a few jokes. And while I would never say that this is the only lever, I do think some of the sway that the right has gotten has come from them successfully co-opting comedy. Like, I don't know about you, Josh, but when I started comedy, comedy was like the bastion of the left and it was like a progressive thing, you know? Like right-wing people used to complain about comedy. And then now they're the ones going, "We believe in humor, we believe it." Now whether it's true or not it is almost irrelevant, but they go like, "Yeah, come on, you can't take a joke. "Come on, yeah, no, it's racist, but it was just a joke. "Can't you?" And I look at how many people have sort of gone down that path, right? It wasn't about policies, it wasn't about ideas, it really just became about, are you allowed to be quote unquote yourself and be welcomed by people? And I feel like that part of the journey also makes Elon become the Elon that we know today. - Yeah, I think that the same way that we, you know, we were having that quick discussion earlier about how we used to tie someone's money to their level of genius. I think we also used to tie subversiveness with what had real power. 'Cause for a long time up until recently, what had real power and what had social sway were like one in the same. So when you talk about comedy and you talk about being subversive, it was subversive to be a comedian and talk about things like desegregation or gay rights because those things, those people didn't have those things. But now liberals and/or leftists have the sway culturally, but there's still a huge conservative power going on. So that's why now you see Elon, you see MAGA, you see Black Lives Matter, you see liberals all thinking that they're taking the side of the resistance. Like, I don't know if you saw the tweet that Elon, he like just tweeted this meme that had already been going around. You watch the Hunger Games inside with the resistance, you watch Star Wars inside with the resistance. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that thing, right? He really thinks that somehow as a billionaire who's supporting another billionaire, he's the resistance. So that's where you see the split and that's why you see him thinking he's like the only guy that can save the world 'cause he's the only one still paying attention and like can cut through all the noise and everything. It's like that exact thinking and I think that's why the humor was a tell 'cause he was like, well now being subversive in humor is to be sometimes a little bit more conservative because these are the jokes now that you don't say and the jokes that you don't say are what the edge lore comics were always trying to be. It's just edge George used to be more left leaning. - It's interesting again, to your point, they go like we are the resistance in Star Wars and I'm like, once again, if you watch the movie, like the Jedi and all of their allies are super diverse, they all have, they all different skin colors, different types of aliens, different vibes. The Jedi have ponytails, earrings, and they wear dresses, you know what I mean? It's like, it's weird that they would be like, "Yeah, that's us." I don't know, maybe we watch movies differently. - Yeah. (laughing) - We'll be right back after this. (upbeat music) - Here's a question, maybe it's just me. This episode is brought to you by KPMG. The people at KPMG make the difference for their clients. Talented teams leveraging the right technology to uncover insights that illuminate opportunity. KPMG teams together with their clients working shoulder to shoulder to help grow and transform their enterprise. Are you ready to make the difference together? Go to visit.kpmg.us/transformation to learn more. - If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It's the credit card designed for iPhone. It gives you unlimited daily cashback that can earn 4.40% annual percentage yield when you open a high yield savings account through Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app. Subject credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Apple Card and Savings by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch, member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com. I don't feel like the world is as too cited as it was a while ago. I also don't feel like the world is as extreme. I know this may be an unpopular opinion, but when Elon's talking about the woke mind virus and the world, it feels like Elon Musk is fighting a battle that no longer exists. And sometimes I even feel like his echo chamber, like he bought Twitter, but then he's a victim to how Twitter makes people think the world is actually happening. And as my brother always says, whenever you think Twitter is real, go touch grass. Do you think it's as like war of the world as Elon thinks it is? No, not at all. And I think that when you talk about woke and how woke has become a catch-all for everything, I think that railing against it is gonna lose market share in the sort of economy of ideas. I hear you. It's gonna become less popular as a-- It's gonna become less popular, but I do think that when the social attitudes towards him finally shift to apathy, 'cause right now he's a very controversial figure and then the half life of controversial figures is that nobody cares, you know? And I think that when nobody cares, that's when the time for like any potential like healing or understanding can actually start. And then, you know, Elon can always shift, but I think this woke thing, it's not like, you see people in America, the most divided country that's not having a civil war right now, you see politicians on the Republican side on lower ticket races losing, 'cause they're running on like, I'm gonna stop the woke school system or whatever people are like-- Yeah, it's played out now. I don't care. It's played out. Yeah. Okay, but maybe to bring it all back around, something that is difficult to accept or even deal with is whether we agree with it or not, Elon Musk is a very public and powerful example of a person who has been indoctrinated and maybe even hurt. And you know, he's been wounded by the world in some ways and he's acting that out. And then it makes me think about how much more apparent or how much deeper is that wound when it's happening to somebody who literally wields no power in their world, sees no future for themselves, does not understand how to get out of a hole that they were told they're not supposed to be in, does not know how to attain the success that they were told should be theirs because of how they look. Yeah, I won't lie, yeah, I didn't think I would get to this feeling. I had like a kid that rejects them, like, you have to be such an asshole to not care if your kids go no contact. Yeah. And your kid goes online and says, these are all the reasons why I think my dad is an idiot and I disagree with him. Like, that to me, nothing would break me more than my children coming out being like, you're a bad parent. That's a wound that like, whether he wants to deal with it or not, no one can overcome that, especially if you think of a man who's like, super powerless, a divorced dad, sees his kid every other weekend and the kid's like, I actually don't want to see you anymore. Yeah, I mean, I've never heard of this in history, but I think this is just my pitch. This is me getting my psychology just for a quick second. I think maybe Elon even had those extra kids at her. Huh, that's interesting. Because here's the thing. Okay, let's say you walk in a room and the room's got 12 people in it and two of them hate you. That's an unsettling percentage. But if you add a hundred more people to the room and two of them still are the only two that hate you, now I can feel a little bit better about myself. Most of people in this room like me. Yeah, but Josh, I'm gonna count here. Damn. By the way, can I just say, I know that neither of you are qualified, but I would pay for all your therapy. Your guys'... Your psychoanalysis is way more exciting than most people. This is great. This is great. Don't pay for my therapy. Don't pay for me. Now I'm worried about you, Trevor, and who your current therapist is, that you listen to me and Josh, you're like, "No, I need to excite them." I'm saying this is so exciting. No, my therapy is bad. I believe in revenge. (laughing) Well, Josh, maybe I should see 'cause I believe in revenge, Jake. Wait, Christiana, you were gonna say it, you were gonna say it. I do think where he has been radicalized is that part of the internet that is into the great replacement theory and like the white supremacist arguments that the people having the children are all the brown people and the immigrants and the poor people. And there's this kind of tech libertarian movement which says, "Us superior specimens, we should be having more children." Right. And I do believe Elon, he has been radicalized into that real right wing kind of trad wifey. We touched on it a couple of weeks ago, a gender being like, "We need more good white children." And I think that's a bit weird. So is he a lost cause? What do we do? 'Cause I mean, I don't think we can give Elon a hug at this point. I have a pitch. Shoot. I have a pitch. Since you guys have seen kind of like my pop psychology skills, for like $100,000 an hour, I would gladly sit with Elon and just try and work through his stuff and see if he's a lost cause. The issue is that he's got so much money, power and influence that he's kind of unchecked and that's what scares me about him. It's the kind you're using. Yeah, I wish that the regulation was like, you shouldn't actually be able to buy Twitter 'cause now you own this huge publishing platform. And what scares me about Elon, he's like, he's relatively young. He's still got like 30 years of craziness in him, at least where he's lucid. So I think it gets scarier from here. Josh, you got any pitches? Yeah, okay. Yeah, it's gonna be tough to help. My fear though is that we've talked about Twitter and we've talked about his overall like spat with Brazil. But we aren't talking about the satellites. We're not talking about the fact that this dude can control so much of the internet. Like there's just whole people who have access to the internet because he gives it to him. That's too much power. So I said all that to say that I think I knew he was too far gone with this Brazil thing because that's a government. And if I even get a letter from the IRS, I get a little nervous. I don't even know if they could be giving me money. I never know what it is. But as I'm opening the letter, I'm like, damn. I'm thinking about everything I ever bought this year. (laughing) Oh man, I, yeah, that's a, that's a-- What do you think Trevor? It's a sobering and terrifying point because I don't think either of you are wrong in many ways. I think, okay, so my pitch is this. We need Elon to meet with more people who don't look like him. I think that would help. But I think in the world of like billionaires and Silicon Valley, there probably aren't that many black people or people of color in general. So I think the solution, Josh, is we just get you as many views on YouTube as possible. We get you to that crazy level. I know it's risky, Josh, but you got to take this for the team. We get you up to like beyond Mr. Beast levels. And then you, when you have that money, you'll be in the room with Elon Musk. And then you, you just, you do your Josh thing, you know? You're very, you're very disarming. You just slowly do your Josh thing on him. He'll be like, man, you know, I don't know how I feel about them, but Josh, he's a pretty good guy. And then slowly, slowly, you just like, you just warm him up. I feel like I'm gonna walk out of the room and be like, yo, I'm so sorry. I think I made it way worse. (laughing) - No, but I, yeah, look, I'm saying this half joking, but it's true. I think without exposure, it is very unlikely that he'll change. 'Cause who in his world would nudge him? Nobody. - All right, this is our mission, everybody. - So this is your mission, Trevor. You gotta get the road with Eli. - You think you're both South African. - Yeah, exactly. You think that a South African from not Elon side of the road is going to shape his view on the, like, I think I'm the worst person for this mission. - No, you won't let that happen. - I'm like, hey, I'm bringing him on by his doll, I had it, and now I'm cured. - I'm now I'm cured. - Oh, man, from one South African to another, Elon, I had it, and now I'm cured. Oh, I can feel the change, Elon, and I'm on your side, but let's watch Menace to Society first before we make other decisions. (laughing) - What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sonaziamine, and Jodi Avogan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Smolta is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannah S. Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? (upbeat music) - This is What Now. So this has been What Now, and thanks for listening, everybody. Yeah, I hope you really enjoyed it.
