[Music] This is the Rural Homelessness Podcast where we discuss the important issues around rural homelessness. Hear from those affected by it and offer some solutions. Brought to you by the award-winning Homelessness Charity, The Fairy Project. Welcome to the Rural Homelessness Podcast. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rural Homelessness Podcast. I am your host, Matt McCleary, and thank you so much for joining me on this episode today. Now, on this episode we are going to be speaking about the challenges of employment in rural areas. And I'm joined by two guests, Russell Beale, who is the engagement specialist at Anglion Water, and also Terry Jordan, who is the clerk and the responsible financial officer for Whizbeach Town Council. So let's welcome our guests to the show today. Hello, Russell. Good morning. And hello, Terry. Welcome. Good morning. Thank you for joining us today on the Rural Homelessness Podcast. And we're going to be chatting about employment in rural areas, and both of you experience business and employment and things like that in rural areas. So it would be great to get your thoughts and opinions on the topic. Let's start with you, Russell. Please, can you give us an insight into your work and the company you're a part of and, you know, its employment statistics and all that kind of thing. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Matt. So I work for Anglion Water. I actually work for the Anglion Water Alliance. The Anglion Water Alliance is a sort of framework partnership. So a lot of companies as part of our supply chain. The Anglion Water Alliance is basically has basically been set up to for the delivery of our capital program. So lots of work to do there. But also, as I say, lots of opportunities, really for employment there. In terms of me, I work on the stakeholder engagement side. So I do a lot of liaison with local authorities and other sort of planning application consultees. So I do quite a bit of work around that. I also have a role to work with business in the community. Business in the community is a membership organization. It's based in London. Companies like Anglion Water subscribe to business in the community. And it's all about, you know, what can business do to support communities. And obviously we've been doing a lot supporting Wispy each other. I think it's 12 years now, Terry. So probably quite a long time. But yeah, as I say, I get involved in that stuff. I think you mentioned employment stats there, Matt, if I remember correctly, we've got about 5,000 people working directly in Anglion Water. But, you know, if you take all of those people in supply chain, you can certainly triple that sort of number. So, so quite a big organization. Thanks, Russell. That's really good to know. And Terry, as someone who works in Wispy each and knows Wispy quite well, what are some of the typical industries that offer employment in this rural location? Thanks, Matt. Yes, I think I do know Wispy quite well. Currently the Clark to the Town Council. But I have worked in local government just starting my 48th year in local government. And I've worked for County Council, the District Council and various town and parishes. So all of that has involved supporting people in Wispy each. Town Council is very keen to support people in Wispy each in any way that it can. And it works with lots of partners, including Anglion Water, to deliver some of its ambitions. Traditionally, the employment in Wispy just tended to be in agriculture or associated businesses such as canning, road haulage, those types of activities. However, obviously, as agriculture has moved forward in terms of mechanization, there's fewer labor opportunities than there used to be. There are some very large factory employers such as Nestle Perina. And the employers generally in Wispy either tend to be large or very small. There are very few medium sized employers. So, for example, if a large business closed, that would have a significant impact on the employment situation in the town. Wispy is fairly unique in that, for example, towns like March. They've got a number of small medium sized businesses, and they've also got much more employment in terms of administrative services and financial services that appears to be the case in Wispy each. Apart from factory workers, I've mentioned companies such as Nestle, majority of people in the town and other tend to work in retail or hospitality. However, since the sort of COVID pandemic in the three, four years ago, that's had a significant impact on town centers in terms of certainly retail. And obviously there again, that's had an impact on the amount of employability that there is in the town center. I don't think Wispy is alone in that. I think that that sort of impact on the sort of the town center and the whole idea of communities gathering in the center. I think that has been dramatically impacted by COVID and sort of what we've seen since then across the country. What do you think? I think you're absolutely right. I think people's sort of shopping habits have changed the way that they work has changed. Fewer people are actually coming into town to work. So there again, that has an impact on the town center and I agree, Matt, Wispy is not standalone in that situation. I think we're reflective of the national trends and we're also finding the same impact on our traditional market that we operate in the town center. But we do what we can as a town council. We run events in the town center. We do other activity to try to pull people into that space to, you know, to spend their money in the shops, which obviously consequently helps to retain and generate employment opportunities. Russell, does Angian water find a difference in employees from a rural background, as opposed to an urban background? What's your experience with that? Interesting question. Matt, I would say in terms of aspiration of some of those youngsters from what I've seen, you know, from students coming out of Thomas Park. For example, we've done a bit of work there. I don't personally think there's any difference in the aspiration. I think the difference is probably in the opportunity. Can I just interrupt you there, Russell, just for a bit, just to explain to our listeners that Thomas Clarkson is a secondary school in Wispy. It does sound like a bloke's name, because it is, but it is actually a school named after him. So just in case the listeners are getting confused. Sorry, Karen, Russell, what were you saying? So, yeah, so Thomas Clarkson Academy, we've done some work with the Academy over a period of time. We've looked at things like six form interviews. And so having some direct experience of that, as I say, I think when you talk to those students, the aspiration is there, but maybe the opportunity within Wispy locally is not there. So it's that sort of difference. But I think, you know, I met with some of the apprentices at the College of West Anglia a couple of weeks ago. And to be honest, they were amazing, absolutely amazing. They were pleased to have the opportunity, I think, to be on a course. They were a construction course, sort of a utility operative type course. These are courses sponsored by Anglia. But I think, you know, from what I was seeing in terms of their, you know, the opportunity they were having the delight in being on those courses was there for all to see really. And, you know, all credit to the College of West Anglia, you know, for helping to build the confidence for, you know, sort of driving those opportunities forward. It was really great to see. I must admit, for me, I've been involved in the education sector for about a decade and a half, not anymore, but what I was. One of the things I've noticed is that there tends to be a gap. Kids come to school and they stay in education here. But when it comes to higher education, when it comes to university, all of a sudden, there's nothing really in the rural area. So they all have to go to a big city somewhere to go to university. But then the problem, and that's okay, because, you know, big cities can support that kind of infrastructure that's needed for that type of higher education. But it's then attracting them back again. It's kind of, you come, you go to school, you leave, and then you never come back. So what can we do? What are your thoughts of trying to attract the graduates back into a rural economy to help contribute to what's going on here? Have we got any ideas there? Partly is about the reality of, you know, the rural situation compared to a city situation. I think one of the problems that WISB has is the public transport connectivity. You know, we've been talking quite a bit, Terry, haven't we, about reopening of the railway line and just improving that connectivity. And I think one of the ways forward, maybe to see, you know, if you could get on the train in WISB each and be in the middle of Cambridge in sort of 50 minutes time, you would see a lot more people living in the town. Okay, they're not necessarily working within the town, but, you know, if they're commuting back to WISB, that would help that local economy. It would be a bit of a game changer, I think, in terms of more opportunities in the town, but also help to take the town sort of forward from a sort of regeneration point of view. This is partly about connectivity, but, you know, it needs something like that to see some transformation, I think, in terms of more skilled opportunities within a town. So, you know, I don't know if you agree with that, Terry, but, you know, those are some of the thoughts I have. Yeah, I agree with you, I agree with you completely, and I think all those people, even if they are going, you know, from WISB each to Cambridge to work, they're still living locally. The weekends, for example, they can be putting money back into the local economy, which, there again, helps to, as I say, maintain and generate employment in the town. That's interesting, you mentioned the WISB each railway line, WISB each is a fairly large town to not have a railway station, there are much smaller towns around us that do have railway stations, so it is a bit of a mystery. But, we've heard about this over the years, do any of you know where we're up to, with that, because you kind of hear something and then you don't, and do we know where we're at at the moment with the WISB each rail and possibly maybe getting something to help improve that kind of connectivity. Well, Terry, maybe you've better place than me to answer that question, but I know there's appraisals going on Terry in the background, I know the Cambridge and Peterborough combined authority who have been working with network rail around that process. What we do know Terry is that it's a very long-winded process. I think it's a very long-winded process and a very expensive process. I think we're talking potentially as I've heard in the past hundreds of millions of pounds to get rail back into WISB, but my understanding is it's still on the agenda. As an issue, as Russell said, how quickly it can be achieved, who knows, but the WISB's 2020 vision partnership. It was high on its agenda and it was really pushing for it and as I understood it, we had the support of the local MP, but it's like a lot of things, you know, these things take a lot of pushing through. And I think, as you said, Matt, I think WISB is one of the largest towns in the UK without a railway station, and ideally it's something we'd all like to see addressed. You make a good point, Terry. If you had this opportunity with the rail, I think you would see a change in WISB. You know, there's like the town centre, it's been struggling, like a lot of town centres, but what we're seeing in WISB, of course, is building almost physically for lapsing. You know, not just building that, but having seen some real, you know, the accommodation in terms of building, and I think it needs something of a big change, something like a railway to start to see that turn around. I'm not saying, you know, that's everything that needs to happen, but I think it needs something of that order to start to see some real change, and I think there's Terry's point there. You know, if you can start to see that, it certainly then starts to generate new opportunities for people within the town. I think also, if I may, picking up Matt's point about lack of opportunity for graduates in the town, I think there again, if graduates are looking for somewhere to settle in respect of the employment, they're looking for other activity and what else is going on. And for a lot of people, if they feel that WISB is really isolated because it has poor transport connectivity, and particularly in a rail station, that's probably another reason why they would look to other places. Shall we say, you know, such as Peterborough came, et cetera, that have those facilities. Coming back to employment more specifically, we've already mentioned one of the barriers to employment in a rural area, such as WISB is the transport connectivity. Terry, what are some of the other challenges that are faced by employers as well as employees in rural areas like WISB? I think, as I said, understand is that some employers do find it difficult to attract employees with the right skills locally, and in fact, I was at a meeting yesterday hosted by the National Trust, a peck over. And they were saying that whenever they have a vacancy linked to some of their property or assets in WISB each, especially in management positions, they don't get applications from local people, which is something they'd like to try to address. So, you know, that probably goes back to the point about people wanting or not wanting to work in WISB if they are graduates. I think some of the employers, I mean, also, I'd like to commend Anglin Water for the work that they're doing in terms of growing people through the College of West Anglin, through their apprenticeships into roles locally, and they've had some real successes in that. I think also employers, not only suffer, we're saying employees might suffer from lack of connectivity and transport. I think the same is affected by employers. They also struggle with no railway station. The fact that not much of the A47 is duelled, and I think WISB is perceived as being in the middle of nowhere, whether that's, you know, an accurate assessment or not. I think they're also sometimes a poor connectivity, digitally, not just in terms of physical infrastructure, and people can feel cut off, and some businesses really struggle if they need to do a lot of their business online, but every business will need to be connected in some way, even if they don't transact their business that way in terms of information that they need to achieve or also financial returns and things that account and things that they need to submit. I think transport is a big issue, certainly for employees. For example, if somebody lives in March but works in WISB and needs to rely on the bus, there's now no bus service on a Sunday between those two largest towns, so people in physically can't get to work on that one day of the week. So I think that is an issue, but it's something that people tried to address, and I think the combined authority of Camci and Peterborough, I think the bus service review is being carried out, and there's also a Fennon and Transport and Access group, which I'm a member. And there again, it looks to improve or address issues in terms of rural transport, but it is difficult because a lot of it comes down to funding, and no longer is the case that local authorities can put significant subsidies into bus services. I think another issue for employees, as I understand it, unemployment is low and possibly no more than the national average, but a lot of work is either part-time, low wage, zero hours contract, or a combination of all of those things, which I don't think helps obviously in employees in terms of security and stability and the ability, for example, if you've got a zero hours contract, it's going to be very difficult to get a mortgage, because some weeks you could be earning no money. So those sort of implications and situations for employees. I don't know whether obviously Russell's got anything to add, because obviously Anglican water is a large employer, and it operates in the town. Well, you know, it's quite a complex picture, I think, in terms of employment opportunities in the town. I briefly mentioned there, the apprentices that are coming out of the college. We've had some wonderful people join that Anglin Water Alliance. You know, there's been some real success stories there. You're probably seeing we're building a pipeline through Finland at the moment, part of a larger strategic pipeline. And, you know, I certainly know one apprentice that's come out of the College of West Anglia that's actually working on that pipeline. So, you know, there are some opportunities. Certainly, again, I can think of one apprentice that's come into Anglin Water. He's now a university as well. He's doing a degree in civil engineering. So, you know, there has been some real success stories. You know, there hasn't been a lot of those opportunities, but we are still sponsoring those courses at the college. You know, my view on apprenticeships is that they're really good, you know, for somebody that's more practical minded, but wants to move forward with their career. You know, the College of West Anglia is well worth a look in terms of those opportunities, and it's not just construction, obviously they do a whole range of courses. So I think, you know, for a lot of students in particular, that's great. That's something well worth, well worth a look. The other thing I would say in terms of homeless people, the ferry project, absolutely doing some amazing stuff. I mean, big credit to Keith and the team there in terms of getting five-year duper late. But for a lot of people, this is about getting back on your feet, isn't it? You've almost got to go back to that first stage. And that's where I think, you know, big, big stuff going on, you know, some amazing stuff going on, but there is such a gap between that start point and getting back on the employment ladder. I mean, some real success stories with the ferry project, but I think, you know, in terms of real or homeless, that's that complex part of it is something you can't ignore. But we have seen some opportunities and some real successes. Right, Russell, homelessness is a very complex issue. And actually, a lot of what Terry was saying, just a little while ago, where you were speaking about the problems faced by employers and employees. And you mentioned things like digital connectivity and transport links and the bus service, not, you know, being what we would hope it to be to get us from one place or another. And a lot of homeless people find those key issues as well. I mean, you know, applying for universal credit and all this kind of thing you got to do online, you got to have a phone, you have somebody to plug your phone in, you got to have a connection, you got to be able to pay for your SIM card top up. And, you know, and a homeless person really struggles to do that. And where do you plug your phone into charge if you even got a phone in the first place. And, you know, if then you have to go some way for a job interview or a universal credit interview and, oh, but it's in March or it's in Peterborough. And so now you've got it now you've got to get from where you are to that place. And it's very, very difficult. So, a lot of a lot of what you're saying that affects employment also impacts people experiencing homelessness as well. So Terry, carrying on in the homelessness theme in your opinion, how do the employment prospects of certainly the main type of employment opportunities available in rural areas. How do these leave people more vulnerable to homelessness? Well, I think so going back to a number of the issues that we've already covered. I think all of those, those link through and I said, I made the point earlier, didn't I about some people having no guaranteed income because of zero hours contracts, or very low wages to a point where they're in work. It's not sufficient. I think that can lead to all sorts of issues when people are suffering and suffering financial, difficult financial circumstances, you know, break down in relationships, people finding coping strategies, which are probably not in their best interest. I think you understand what I'm saying. All leading to a point where, you know, they're unable to either remain in a property for relationship reasons, for example, or they're unable to continue to afford to live in a property or support the running of a property. Ultimately, the potential is as I see it to be homeless. And one of the things in Whizbeach as well as we have a lot, I think, I don't know the statistics or sort of to compare it with other places, but I know we have a lot of HMOs, houses of multiple occupancy, and a lot of sort of landlords and the rental market is huge. I mean, Whizbeach is opposed to sort of people owning a house and that sort of thing. And I know we've got a new government now and they're focusing on housing and trying to address some of these issues. And one of the things that was flying around sort of pre and post elections was this whole thing about no fault evictions and how they also play a part in causing homelessness. So maybe we'll see some movement on that front as well in the future, who knows, but that's also another issue, I think, as well as not affording rent or, you know, getting into into sort of a lifestyle habit that might cause you to lose your home. You know, also no fault evictions and things like that as well, also playing a part there. Do you think the availability of jobs and employment prospects have an impact on rural homelessness? How do they link together? I think as we've been saying, it is a complex one, isn't it? There's lots of challenges in here as you've been saying that. One of the things we did working with Keith and the team at The Ferry Park, this is going back sort of pre-cove it. We have a little local jobs club, didn't we, Terry? Yeah, he did, yeah. And that was a bit of a bridge and, you know, maybe we need to go back and do something like that. But you're quite right for, you know, ferry project, amazing, helping to get people back on the feet, so health issues, whatever it is, you know, identifying some particular training types. But that whole thing about health and well-being, such an important part of sort of moving forward. The little jobs club almost was a bridge then, it's for what next then. And of course, it was very informal, but as you've been saying that, you know, there wasn't, people didn't have CVs, they didn't have access to a computer. Well, as we know, virtually every job these days, you've got to apply online. So if you haven't got access to a computer or a printer or whatever, you're going to struggle with that. And the jobs club was about trying to bridge that. And, you know, all credit to, as I say, Keith and the team for trying to make that work. And of course, what you were seeing was, you know, people that perhaps have worked on the land for most of their lives and, you know, reached a point in, you know, an age point where perhaps they just physically weren't able to continue that. Well, what next then? And it's almost, you almost need the right environment to be able to talk about that. And I'm not knocking the job center of employment center, but that sort of can be quite a formal process. Whereas I think the idea is something more informal, where you can get people talking, sharing ideas, sharing, you know, those challenges just seem to work for me. And I'm not sure about you, Terry, but that just seemed like a bit of a bridge to help people. I agree, to be honest, I'm not forgotten about the job club, but hadn't really realized that it stopped because it's one of those things you almost assume will continue because it should continue. But I'm not a lot of these things are reliant on being funded, aren't they? And funding is more and more difficult to come across. But I think also as well, through the job club, it probably helped people with their wellbeing in terms of they were meeting other people they may not have met before. And I think there was a, as you said, Russell, an informal atmosphere. It's quite a social event, so it helped people with other issues. And I think even potentially showing people, they're volunteering opportunities so that they can increase their their skills, if you like. So they, for example, they could with work potentially safe for a charity in a charity shop. People could develop cash handling skills, team working skills, all those things that are all going to be useful for a CV. And a lot of people have actually got more skills than they realize. They don't think of perhaps, you know, running a house, running a household budget is a skill. They don't realize that driving a car is a skill. If it's got value to somebody else potentially, then it is a skill. So people need to be encouraged to really think about what they can do and whether some of those skills are transferable from even perhaps the domestic life or a previous work environment to take it forward to a new one. But you're absolutely right in terms of, as you say, if you've had somebody's worked on the land for 40 years and have done sort of manual type work, to then be faced by, here's a job to apply for, here's a computer, get on with it, and it's just not as easy. People do need support and it would be great, you know, to be able to keep something like the job club going. Yeah, but I think it was a great thing and I say all of these things where we can get people together and support them is what we should be doing and also may not be the appropriate time. But I want to concur with the comments made by Russell about the effectiveness of the ferry project. You know, it's, in my opinion, possibly relatively easy to put a roof over someone's head, but to transform their lives to a point where they can be back in society and supporting themselves, which is what the ferry project achieves, I think is great work. And I think, I think there's an important point here, we could all be homeless. You know, in that paycheck, you know, it doesn't take long to, you know, for the majority of people, it doesn't take long time to run out of money. And, you know, for some of the people coming, getting themselves into that situation, as you say, Terry, quite often they've had quite successful careers, you know, before reaching that point. And whether it's a health issue or a marriage breakdown or lots of work, it doesn't actually take much to get from, you know, quite a successful position to a position where it's all gone wrong. And when it's all gone wrong, it really needs a lot of support. And as you say, it's not just a roof over your head and some food, great, that's that's part of what you need, but it's right, what next then. And so I think there's some really important stuff in here, but a lot of these pigments, you say to have some really good skills, and, you know, that can be tapped into. And it's just, it's just neat, they just need that opportunity to sort of move it forward again. But, yeah, it's, it's a complex one, but I think, you know, once you start to get your head around some of that bit and realize that, you know, some of these people, you know, it's, they have gone from a successful position to actually, you know, a very difficult position. Yes, we could all be in that position. Yeah. I mean, I'd heard, anecdotally, some comment made somewhere I can't recall where that, you know, a number of people are two paychecks away from homelessness. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, complex, I would say, Matt. When you start thinking about it, you know, when you start breaking the components down, you can relate to it and understand it. You know, this has happened to people for a number of different reasons, but. And of course, employment can be part of the problem, but it can also be part of the solution. Yeah. So, that's really good. So, as we come to close this episode, I just want to pick both of your brains and just ask, and I might be able to guess what some of your answers are, but I'll wait and see if I'm proved right or not. What are your hopes or ideal dreams? What would they be for the employment prospects of rural areas like Whizbeach? I think for Whizbeach, you know, that regeneration of the town is a really important factor. I think, you know, there has to be some funding. That has to be some funding in here. Maybe a change of government is something that would help that process. But I think something, you know, there has to be some game changes, I think, with a local economy. And from that, you will see, you know, the health and well-being, challenges moving forward, you'll see more jobs, you'll see, you know, what is essentially a wonderful town. Fantastic heritage, fantastic history. So unique. But obviously, it has been in decline. It just needs something to turn it around and move it forward. And I think, you know, on the back of that, you will see more housing, some better housing, but certainly some more opportunities. So I think there's something really important there about, you know, that wider picture for the town and about grabbing that opportunity at the first time you can do. Thanks, Russell. Hope some dreams, Terry. Yeah, not surprisingly. I agree with everything that's been said by Russell. Yeah, I think what we need, we certainly need a number of things. We need more retail in town centres. I realise that's probably pushing against the tide, but we need a way of making town centres vibrant and viable. Nobody wants rows of empty shops, but we just need to probably reset some mindset if we can so that people aren't buying everything from Amazon. As an example, obviously, there are other suppliers. There are other online retailers. Yeah, we possibly need in terms of security, more medium sized businesses, because I think I said before, you know, if you get a large employer that disappears, significant impact in terms of, you know, the population. And obviously, it's not just those people potentially losing their jobs, then they've got less money to spend. So they're not spending their money locally in retail, for example. And also, they're pulling money out of the economy as opposed to putting money into the economy. So that would be useful to wispy to get medium size employers. I think we need a wider range of jobs. I think it might be difficult, especially without rail station and other connectivity issues, to attract jobs, shall we say, in the sort of IT or the high tech or electronic type activity, as opposed to what's been traditional in this area. Jobs that would pay more, as I said, hopefully that also then benefits people, not only in terms of their lifestyle, but their spend in the local economy. Higher wages, opportunities for people to progress within work. I think there again, people struggle in terms of career ladder. They get to a certain point. It means you've actually got to move away. That's if you've returned from university. So I think there needs to be more opportunity. If you work in a factory, there needs to be opportunity to become management, for example. That's what I think. More apprenticeships, I'm a great believer in apprenticeships and obviously the work that Angley and Water are doing with the College of West Anglia proves the benefit of that. We do need people with skills in terms of trade activities. It's no good us having a situation in this country where everybody just sits behind a computer all day. We need those trades. I think apprenticeships is a way of growing some of those trades. And also Russell made a comment about aspirations of people in Whisbridge are not low. I'm not disagreeing with Russell, but there's a perception of low aspiration. I think a better range of jobs would raise aspiration levels and people wanting to get more qualifications because they know it's worth them investing their time in trying to develop themselves because the opportunities are there. Russell mentioned funding. I mean, there was a release announced by the previous government, the £20 million fund, £2 million for Whisbridge each year for a 10 year period. I know the town board has just started to meet and hopefully potentially some of that funding will get to a situation where we can help develop the local economy, the local infrastructure, which potentially might lead to job creation or job security in the town. That's wonderful. Well, thank you Russell and thank you Terry. Thank you so much for joining us on the Rural Homelessness Podcast today. It's been a pleasure chatting with you about employment in rural areas. So thank you for joining us. Thank you Matt. And thank you for listening to this episode of the Rural Homelessness Podcast. And don't forget an episode comes out on the first and the 15th of every month. So I'll be back again really soon, chatting with some more guests about issues that impact and affect rural homelessness. And I look forward to the pleasure of your company again really soon. Thank you. Goodbye. Thank you for listening to the Rural Homelessness Podcast brought to you by The Ferry Project. Visit our website on www.fairyproject.org.uk. [MUSIC]
