You are now tuning into the Own the Build podcast. Join Ceiling's very own Paul Heming, where each week he interviews experts from the world of construction and asks all the important questions around intelligent construction management. Hello and welcome to episode 184 of the Own the Build podcast with me, Paul Heming. Today I am sharing our mini guide to digital signatures. We've talked about it a lot on the show, done webinars, done events and the power of digital signatures. We are big believes in rather than unsigned contracts. This quick download outlines the five reasons why your company should be doing it. It gives you a pathway on how to do it and yeah if you want to learn more, check that out or feel free to give me a show. In the studio today, I am joined by Patrick Carroll who is a QS and founder of Carroll Estimating, a business that provides a team of contractor QS's and estimators for less cost than a single QS employee. Patrick, Patty, welcome to the show. I'm pleased to have you here and I'm delighted to have your Irish accent on. I realise I've called you Patrick and Patty. What is it? Paul, I have actually been called a lot worse in this industry. Patty is absolutely perfect. The only person that calls me Patrick is my mother and when she's giving out, she actually calls me Patrick. Patty is flying for today. I'll call you Patty then. Listen, a great thing involved in episode 184. The 183 beforehand has been absolutely excellent so I'm looking forward to this. Fantastic. Thank you. I mean, I have to be open and honest with the listeners here. I had to think long and hard about whether or not Patty should come on the show and the main reason is that, and there's been a couple of his type before. There's I think three Aston Villa fans have now been on the show and it pains me to say as a Birmingham City fan, I'm the only Birmingham City fan who has been on the show but that's 34-3. So we are still kind of winning but that was a deep dark secret that Patty told me. I hope we don't lose listener's milk to their parts. We're going to swiftly move on on that. We always start to show Patty with a little bit of an introduction into our guests and we're going to be talking about on account payments, cash flow, et cetera, et cetera. Before we jump in, can you just tell us about your journey and construction and what you do today? Well, first of all, I hope nobody is listening because I'll be talking about me, myself and I, and you know, nobody should really care about me. But yes, I'm a QS and I'm an estimator. With about 20 years experience, I know I don't look 42 but I am 42. And I've always worked for them and looked out for small and medium-sized contractors and subcontractors because I've worked for them. I was always against the status quo. If that's something to say, I always wanted to see, hold on here, why you leaving money on the table or why you leaving money behind? And I think the small guy or the small girl or the small woman, they're up early in the morning. They're a happy of the industry. I just read an article there the other day that in Ireland, and I'm sure it's probably similar in the UK, 99.4% of companies in the construction industry here in Ireland are SMEs. I think it's like 99.2 or something in the UK, so it's exactly the same. Yeah, and they are the happy. They demand the woman in the van and they're the person that wakes up at five or six o'clock in the morning. They drive to work, bring people to work. They're the team maker, the tragic supervisor. They're the trades person that has to put the flooring down, put the skirting on the wall, the suspended ceilings. They have to go together, they have to go click material, they have to do the invoicing, they have to do the calls, they have to talk to the claims, they have to talk to the stakeholders. The fluce bang. The fluce bang. And at the end of the day, when they come home and even, they're mothers and fathers. And essentially, the reason why we look after them is because they wear all the hats, and it's no different to my business, being the owner or managing director, you wear a lot of hats. And you just want to get what they're entitled for. Their value that they bring to projects is so important that they're, they're essentially Bedford, because what we're dealing with every day of the week here, and I say this to all our surveyors here, is we're playing with, or we're dealing with people's livelihoods. And that's it. And if something goes wrong on a project, and this goes from contender stage or whatever, that project or that cashflow or that payment claim can actually shut a business down in a flash. As keen listeners to the show, well, no, I am a subcontractor by experience qualification. We work with both Maine and sub now and even clients as well. But my heart, if you like, is on the sub contract side and at the tail end of the industry or of the cash flow in the industry. So a lot of what you're saying echoes deeply with me. Just paint a picture of your business. There's 10 QS estimators in there. How big is your team and the kind of clients that you'll work with? Are they all subbies? So we have 11 servers. We're based here in the Southeast of Carlos. My actually our managing server is based in Belfast. So he actually runs the business from Belfast, believe it or not. So that's where the hybrid working comes in and the model comes in. And with QS is especially senior ones, not at around the country. And we have junior members that are with us as well that have senior QS is either sorry to watch what they're doing and to make sure everything is okay. And to go back and say, what is our normal day? Our normal day is to make sure that drawings are measured, that tenders are 100% before the quote. And we also want to know, right, it's not market rates we're using here. We're actually well been into your company. We want to see how much salary you want to earn in a year, how much your business is making or how much is your business overheads and how much margin and profit margin. And unfortunately, a lot of the companies we see do not know how much money they make or if they even make a profit onto probably 16 or 18 months later when they sit on a customer account. And that's probably a lot of frustration with these contractors that don't. They're specialized in what they do. But as QS is an estimate, we're specialized in what we do. I will never say to any carpenter, can I hang back to Trevor Skirting absolutely no way. Can I tell you how long it should take you? Absolutely. And how much you should be paid per meter and that's skirting without a shadow of a doubt. And I will never, when I'm sorry, when we go to sites and this is one thing I say to our junior suburbs is when you walk into that building site and you meet the carpenter, the tradesman or the steel worker or whatever, please just go over and just ask them, how long did that take? And you'd be surprised how much people love talking about their work. You know, how long did it take? The electrician, how long did it take you to put those eight spots in the sitting room? And here you go, well, I had to mark it out and I had to get center to center and yeah, I needed this guy to hold that. It actually took two men to do X, Y, and Z. And then you get to get a report, say, ah, well, you know how long it takes, put spots on the ceiling. Say I'm putting a carpet on the floor. And believe it or not, we're all, it's all very similar as we go along. Okay, different products you have to get to learn or how different systems are used and all that kind of crack. Everyone is busy, busy contractors. As I said before, we're in all the hats. We're just the service that from time to time, you may need us. Okay, we want it back for you. We want to partner for you when we walk into the room with the PQS or the main contractors QS, you know, we're behind it. Come around the shoulder almost. And so your clients, Paddy, am I right? I'm saying they're SME. Yes. Are they subcontractors and main contractors? Yeah. So we would, we would, would literally more or less our business is smaller meeting. So it's, yeah. Now, median triangle up to, I think it's, is it rule of thumb? Is it 200 million or something like that? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Pretty large organization. No, but it's more or less, it's more or less the smart, smart guys that we work for. And you know, it is, we love what we do. I enjoy it. I love going into meeting to represent these guys are, are, are severe. It's, it's, when you get that, it's not a win. It's just when you get what they're entitled to. That's what makes it worthwhile, you know? No, I, I completely agree with you. And like, it's almost, makes you almost a bit sentimental, doesn't it? Thinking about that person that you describe driving the van, doing X doing Y doing Z doing A, B, C, D, E, F and G and then coming home and actually looking after their family, right? And that, you know, when you actually contextualize it like that, it does make you think much more deeply about the industry. And you know, you're talking about like the maturity of systems, maturity of processor, a lot of these contractors, it's limited because they're focused on what they're good at, which is the carpet, the electricians, whatever, right? So it totally and utterly resonates. And I was saying to you off air of the few thousand people who are going to listen to this show, the term on account payment is going to resonate with absolutely everyone. But moreover, it's probably going to be in their psyche today on a project on a contract or whatever, like it happens all the time. And so I was reflecting listening to you chat there on how I have used on account payments. And I worked for a giant subcontractor. We were a very big company. And but we were still treated like a subcontractor. And I've worked for an SME subcontractor. And I've spent a lot of time paying sub subcontractors. And throughout every single project, I haven't got the exact list here, but I can guarantee there was not a single project or even a single subcontract or sub subcontract where there wasn't an on account payment, either me receiving or me paying on account. And what's funny when I reflect on on account payments is it said you wanted to talk about it. And I reflect on, you know, the sentiment and the how I felt when you were talking through that individuals day is I know how on account payments make me feel. But I would do it just as the same as it got done to me largely because of time, largely because of margin issues as well, you know, and the third point and probably touching on your point is I could get away with it. So I would do it. And it just creates an inbuilt flexibility in my commercial position having on account payments. And I think those three things for me are exactly why it happened to me. Exactly why I did it. How does that make you feel? I like what you just finished it there. I get away with it. Get away with it. And there's an ancient wisdom, an ancient proverb or someone did one say that if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten. Okay. And what I mean by that, and this is for the smaller and for cash flow and for on account, I pay on account there today. Is that fine? You've been put to the pin of your collar and you will take anything that's been asked or said to you. So I'll just give you an instance there. You were being watched and you're being looked at as a business from a main contractor or for someone that's actually paying you the paycheck. No, may as a cue as you mean. Yes. And communication is very, very key to all this. Okay. The breakdown of it, bring it all back. The frustrations. Why is this happening to me? Why does this always happen to me? I've too much paperwork. I'm too busy to do this and too busy to do that. Now, the QS on the other side or the PQS or the main contractors QS would say the same things. However, you are not busier than me, Paul. I've got to blank that all out and I've got to go on here. I've got to get paid here because I've got a supply chain below me that I've got to pay. I've got staff to pay. And when you say on the first day, and if you put in a payment application for it, we'll just say 100,000 or 100,000 pounds and you get the calls, the data that's two. Yeah, we're going to pay 60,000 pounds there, 60,000 euros. The data you said, that's okay. You've set the tone. And the reason why you've set the tone is because when payment application two comes, they're going to go the same thing again. They're going to go, I'm too busy. I haven't had a chance to look over it. I pay again. Now, that 40 grand of a difference will come 60,000 pounds. It'll become 80,000 pounds on the next side. You've got to call hot very quickly because the industry is very small over here and I'm not too sure about the good pay. Over here in Ireland, we all know each other either directly or indirectly. And if you get known as a company, as a carpenter company, as a mechanical company or an electrical company, then boys and grand, they'll take anything, you know, they're just paying them whenever they're there. They'll be glad. They'll be no better. So you've been offered 60,000 over 100,000. There is dispute over 40,000. Not a dispute. There's actually not a dispute. It's just laziness. It's just, ah, I haven't the time to do it. Of course you have the time. It's just time management. You have the person on the other side has not worked or time management through where you work. So let's step it back. The first thing before we do anything, is there a payment schedule in the contract? I.E., I'm starting Monday of the 4th of August. Am I getting paid on the 25th or the 28th? Now they will stipulate your payment applications have to be in by 18 or 19th of that month. Don't fall into the realm of, ah, I know the other company down the road, they send it in the morning of it's due and they pay over. So no, get your ducks in the road because good data in is good data out. I was going to say something else there. I said, 1-P-E in and I said, 1-P-E out. Okay? And that's simple. That's very simple. So now your end of the bargain, you've done your end of the bargain. Sorry, we go back to the contract. The contractor or the PQS are a claim. You will sign up to a contract that they have actually made up and you've signed up with. What are they doing? That they have written, all you're doing is just implementing it. Now that some contractors will go, ah, geez, I can't come across as contractually and contractually. I'm not going to get the next job. Ah, Giz, why you give me hassle on this job? Sorry, sorry, sorry, Mr. Contractor, sorry, Mr. PQS. I'm only doing what you've asked me to do. What you told me to do? I completely agree with you. And I mean, being contractual. And again, this is my subcontract mentality is, I'm just doing what you told me to do. There's nothing, nothing beyond that, but you do often get it thrown in your face. But before we move on, with on account payments, my experience generally would be that on account payments are less about your measured work and much more about your claims and variations. And therefore, I hear what you're saying about the simplicity of getting your ducks in the row, getting your application in, et cetera, et cetera. But quite often, whether the application date is X, then you submit on X or whether it's Y and you submit on Y doesn't necessarily matter as much with on account payments. It's much more is my variation submission. And you know, I may have submitted it to the main contractor in my subcontract experience. And then you don't really hear anything back. And then it gets to the end of the month. And then you see, taking your example, 100 grand variation, paid 60. To be honest with you, most of them weren't paid 60. Most of them would be paid six quid. It would be more likely, right? But we'll just decide. So actually, it would be around on account payment to me hinges much more on the variation process than the application process, right, in that you've got to supply the main contractor with all of the information to then go and get it from the PQS, right? If it is chargeable variation. And if it isn't, then it's between you and them. But it's very easy for them just to and again, I'm taking my own experience here, part of just saying, I don't really want to deal with that problem right now. I'll just pay X. And that my strategy would be on something. I'm trying to think now, shall I spitballing a bit here? But why would I have done on account payments, right? It would either be because the particular item I didn't agree with, right, would fundamentally have been one, or two, I wanted to keep it in play. I might think it's a variation, but I want to keep it in play for the final account, right? And just, you know, put a little bit of, you know what I mean, just not say that's 100%. I want to, because what is the strategy? You want to get to final account and there's something on the table to negotiate over, right? That was certainly my, I don't know how that makes you feel. Yeah, no, and it's something they're very important and you might agree, okay, that's your opinion. Okay, I'm a QS, I have my opinion. And whether that goes to a rule of measurement, or aware variation has been costed to say, oh, hold on here, Patty, that should have been done to the rates because you have a schedule of rates. That was already, that's, you know, a similar type of work or whatever, or no, Patty, you should have went on day works, no, Patty, you got it. Day works, so you can see for that type of work, that doesn't go through the B or Q now anymore. But people forget, and you often get this, they've put in a variation for 10,000, or 10,000 pounds, excavated trench and put down a bit of pipe work and 10 grand. And you've gone look at this and you go, I can't pay the same grand. What's this all about? So there is the word, and I don't like using the word because it's not really the language that contractors use. You have to substantiate the claim, right? So substantiate the meaning is you just need to break it down to the nth degree to get that 10,000. So we can all be like the order subcontractor. We can all be like the order contractor and go, you know what it is, I've always done it this way, and this is the way it should be. And I'm due to 10,000 euro, because I said it's 10,000. Well, hold on here, I've got to respect your opinion, Paul. First first time. First, no, I've got to respect your opinion. But that doesn't mean that your opinion is right. I now have to do the work to go get that 10,000 euro, because I'm saying to you, Paul, no, hold on here, Paul, you're playing here. Now, let's have a look at here. Let's break down the hours. Let's break down the material. Let's break down the profit and overhead. Let's break down the whatever has to go into that. And slowly, we get to see and you go, no, I'm still not happy. Well, then there's mechanisms. There's mechanisms within the contract, ADR, alternative disputes, reviews. Oh, but Patty, if I start doing that, I never want to work for this company. Again, why would you want it? Okay. That's easier said than done. Okay, that is a time easier said than done. I will say, there's a little thing called variation notices, all right? And you'll rock up to do an account or do a payment application. And suddenly it's a big rush, or she's going to get all those variations in. And I just get to me, 50,000 worth of variations gone in this month. And next minute, you, the QS, have been handed the day of PEM's application, 50 grand worth of variations and you're gone. Well, where is all this stuff come off? What's after happening here? Your back gets up your back gets up, because nobody in your team has, mightn't have fulfilled you in on what's happening on site, because you might be only there. You might be a project server. You might be over three or four projects at one time. And that's another thing. And that's another thing that we kind of forget as well. You as a QS, you have multiples of trade packages to look after. You have multiple trade packages to get ready. Like you might be at ground level, which you're already thinking about, the window supplier. You're already thinking about who's going to supply the iron monthly, getting their costs and getting a pre-contract meeting. So I always say, when you get your paperwork right at the very start from day one, come final account. And this is another thing that we kind of forget. If you're going to do variation nots and variations, please accept that the QS is going to come back looking for credits. That work is not done. Well, I think, I think on that, I completely agree with you. And by the same token of me saying, I've paid people on account, I am saying, you know, a few thousand people listen to this, at least a thousand of them will be feeling like, Oh, yeah, I've been paid on account or I'm paying on account right now, because it just happens right as in our industry. I also think there will be a few people listening to this quite a few in the hundreds, if not thousands, who'll be thinking, Oh, yeah, that application that I submitted this month. Yeah, I did just slot in that 50,000 pound variation as per your example. Right. Without any substantiation without any, right, it's because these are the problems that we have that we have as an industry. Would I say that 50,000? Absolutely not. No, no, but this, yeah, but this is why I think it's unfair for this issue to be characterized as either, you know, grizzly main contractor, always paying stuff on account, or subcontractors always slapping stuff in. It's a bit of both. And what I want to get to in the second half of the show is what are the strategies for both main and subcontractors as individuals and then as a collective to try and avoid this. It doesn't help. We will do that right after this break. Records, records, records. So often you hear this phrase in construction, don't you? Transparency between main and subcontractors can always be a challenge. And I've been on both sides of the table. So I understand our app, ceiling, fosters engagement and records, all the communications for both main and subcontractors through the tender and contract process. That means you're going to reduce your risks, reduce disputes and reduce miscommunication. Imagine a world where you had all of your tender addendums, all of your tender communications, every drawing, every document you'd ever created on a tender process recorded, not just for one subcontractor, but for every subcontractor, who will massively reduce the chance of variations, massively reduce the chance of miscommunication and disputes. And that's what we've built at ceiling. To find out more, go and watch the video that's in the show notes right now. And then book a demo and one of our team will walk you through exactly how it works. So, Patti, in the second half of the show, I feel like in the first half we grounded ourselves in the problem of on account payments and in the second half we can talk about the solutions. Before we do, one thing that stuck out to me when I was introducing you to the show is that you're a QS, but your business is carol estimating. Could ask what it was that made you choose carol estimate because most QS is an estimate, there's a bit of, what's the word, friction between the two. No, that's a very, very good question. I will tell you, I'm a nerd for Rhett. I love first principles. I just love building up Rhett. I love talking to a machine driver or a ground works contractor and go on to how long will it take to put down a 500 millimeter diameter concrete pipe that's 500 meters long. What do I need? And just when you hear them talk about their work and they go up, you need a 20-ton machine, you need this, you need a swivel jumper, you need five lads on the ground and then you go, my God, his cost for doing that is 4 1/2 grand in the day. Within a couple of weeks, he's down, you know, whatever amount of money and then it comes back to, man, you've got to get paid for this, you know, or whoever's doing, no, I'm a nerd, I'm an absolute, so that's why carol estimate again. So when it started out five years ago, that's what I was doing. I was pricing, just literally pricing jobs for contractors. It started off small. My first job part was for 200 euro and I was finished, I was finished at 11 o'clock that morning and I'm not an absolute. And that's when it, that's when you're in business, right? And when you talk about cash lot, I wasn't going to get that 200 euro for another month. Yeah, yeah, it's not easy starting up is it? That's interesting, yeah, I did wonder because, you know, like I said, most people would say carol survey, but you, I understand now in respect of your love for rates and for subcontract pricing. And then what happened and evolved then, and I started the, and then I got my first employee, and then it started to evolve and then it started to see, oh my God, contractors, subcontractors, you need someone to keep the mind to commercially manage your project. Okay, let's, let's, let's be the estimator. Let's, we need that tender. And let's get you to find an account and then follow it through. Okay, so it's kind of started much more in the estimating realm and then move into some interesting, interesting. Okay, so talking about helping contractors manage contracts. So first off of the show framed the challenge around on account payments. And I started to feel guilty for my previous indiscretions as a survey of both up the chain and down the chain. But I think we've made it quite clear. And I think everyone understands the challenge. I guess, how do we go about resolving it? What is best practice to resolve? I think we should look at both the sub contract and main contract side and maybe frame it in that context. So let's start with subcontractors right because at the end of the first half, you were saying to me, you know, in a perfect world variation says in the contracts, I've got to submit it within this time period, it's going to have the time is going to have the programming, blah, blah, blah, blah, with the best will in the world. It's really complicated on an icework on projects where you'd have 600 variations, right? You might have 30 in a month. It's complicated to adhere to that timeline throughout. And therefore, quite often, you wouldn't and you would what I don't know what it is because it's complete. It's a bit counterproductive in some ways. You would just say, well, an easy way to notify this one is bang it on the application, right? And that's kind of how things unveil. And you also talked about, you know, yeah, it's 10,000 pounds. And then the main contract says substantiate that for me. Obviously, again, there should be a certain way of building up a variation or a price according to the contracts. It's all good and well, bang in the contract drummers, the subcontractor say, I need to be paid not on account, blah, blah, blah, but you've got to do your bit as well. So talk to me about how you advise your clients, forget what happens with the main contractor paying on account. How do you advise your clients to do everything possible to not get paid on account? Okay. So you mentioned something there about six or 700 variations, right? And I'm going to talk from a subcontractor's point of view that individual subcontractor, whether he's a carpenter, whether he's a steel fixer, whether he's a floor finish, whether he's electrician or a plumber. So you said six or 700 variation. That's over the whole project. Okay. And you say, I have the time, to be honest with you, if I was a suppressor, I got that's not my problem, Paul. You worry about my count. I have to get paid. So, and I go back to the very, very start of your project. And I go back to subcontractors and why companies use us or use the links to yourselves or whatever. We are specialists and experts in what we do. Okay. We have gone to college. We have done whatever it is, part-time full-time. We know how contracts work. We know how first principles work. We know how payments work. We know how to get money when we, we didn't think we're a contract with Thailand. If you're a partner, if you're a block layer, or if you're anything like that, you're a specialist in your field. Okay. And it's not an accountant. We are the accountants of construction. So we know how to balance things. We know how to make money flow, make money move in the whole up. Now, if you are the subcontractor and you're going into a main contractor, you're putting your payment application in or whatever it is, think about it. The main contractor has employed the best of the best commercial team and are paying them to look at you and to look at your accounts. Right? So, wait, Patti, how can I be more unique than the next guy? So, if you're always constantly looking over your shoulder, so if I'm the character and I'm looking at the stage, I'll say he's only submitting stuff. He's getting the same reaction as I can get. Or if I'm looking at the block layer, I'll say he's getting the same crack payment on the couch. Stop. You are unique on what you do. Right? Why can't you be the person that gets your stuff together properly from the very stack? Hold on, Mr. Contractor. Let's sit down now at the pre-construction meet. Right? Let's look at our payment terms. 40 days. Happy days. When do we have to submit the 20th? Now, if a variation is, if we see something that is coming up, so say, for instance, we'll go up, the drawing showed that the floor is supposed to be leveled. And whatever, the QS on the main contractor forgot to write on the bill of quantities to falls on his description. Right? It's supposed to go into a gully. Okay? And next minute, you've seen it. Oh my God. This is going to be slower. My area for power floor doesn't cover the falls. Okay? I'm going to have to talk to you. Well, then you pick up the phone or you actually write a notice to say, there is potentially a variation I'm giving you notice that this may come. No, it might never come, but you're just given notice of that there is. So what you're doing, what you're doing, Paul, you are being open. It's not this tightness of us, me against you. It's me against you now. And I'm going to win over you on this one. If you have that mentality from the start, what happens is that will keep going for the 617 months, 8 months to two years down the road, if you're on a big job. Right? When we go working for, for a sub, subcontractors into main contractors, when I go meet the likes of you, Paul, the big boy, the big bully, right? If that's something that would be called that, but I'll take it. Are the alpha male or the alpha woman in definitely would be called that. Yeah. Right? And we walk in the door and I go to Paul, Paul, I'm going to make your life easier. Yeah. And you're going to go, what do you mean? I'm going to give you every notice because you can get that notice now and you cannot fight your client. So what do you mean, Patty? Oh, man, I'm here. I'm here to work with you. Right? So every payment application part that I ain't going to send you is the truth. There's one source of truth. Okay. The truth never changes. Okay. And there's lives on this. Listen, I go, ah, what's that man on the boat? He's full of it. No. That's the QS that we work with. I actually want to be on jobs where there is QS because you're talking in everybody's language. Right? So then what we do is, Paul, just giving your heads up, the measure is, there's something wrong with the measure and I concrete for the floor. It looks like you're short, 20 cubes. How do you, I really appreciate you for doing that? I would never capture that 20. Now what you can do, because you've signed a contract with your client, obviously it depends on the contract that you've signed. Now you can go, actually, our subcontractor has claimed an extra 20 cubes. And this is the reason why. So you've actually put in the groundwork, the subcontractor, i.e. Carl Essamet and as a partnership has come up and said, no, Paul, you now can go to your client. What happens is, you start to build a rapport and every time your payment application comes in the door, yours will be at the top. They will go off. You know what it is? Those guys are honest. They're trustworthy. I can process their payment and get it out the door because I know that they're here to help me. You're talking my language 100%. I was writing down some notes that you're chatting there about, you know, what should the main contractor, what are the strategies for the main contractor to prevent, you know, receiving late submissions that you then have to pay on account, etc, etc. Nobody wants it, right? And simply put, you were talking about pre-construction, sitting down, agreeing, you've got a contract, right? But I used to always do a contract audit. I've shared it on this show before. So if anyone wants this contract audit, Dr. Martin Share it again, where this is, as a subcontractor, you take a 300-word contract and distill it down into three pages to keep it some pieces, right? And then I would go to this pre-con meeting and say, you know, God, there's 10 points on this, actually, which I need to agree with this QS item I, right? Which is, you know, how are we going to manage the application? How are we going to manage variations? If X, Y, and Z happens, what do you want me to do? I'm on yours, and I would always paint it what you just said. Look, I'm here, you've given me a contract for your wider work, so I'm on your team. How can I help you to be a success? And that is both on the application. So if you don't think about this as a subby, right? On the application, get that in on time, walk site with them on time, then they can go and get the money for the team. Same with the variations, substantiate it, don't put in 10k line item and expect to get paid. Do all of those processes, and you end up in a much better space. And I can do this now after I've been running ceiling for almost a decade, and I can reflect on the last projects on which I worked, some very, very big ones, which were quite toxic at times. And you talked in about going into a contract with a me versus you mentality. And I can do one project specifically where the client who was a main contractor and me as a sub-contractor from minute one, even pre-contract, we wanted to kick the crap out of each other, right? It was absolutely me versus you. And then by the same token, because we were under so much pressure on that job, when we sub-subcontracted, it was a near identical experience. Yeah, well, because it was, again, it was me versus you, is you're more thinking about how can I get around this, get myself out of this hole, as opposed to how can we collaborate and get ourselves through this situation. And I think it's so important what you're saying about me versus you and trust. And it's so simple as well, right? For you as a sub-contractor, me as the main contractor to sit down at the start and just lay out the ground rules that are in line with the contracts, but are actually just, it's me and you talking now, buddy, how are me and you going to run this stuff? Because I don't want to be contractual, but this is the contract. How do we make it work? Yeah, like, you know, straight away, you know, please start meeting. You know what the vibe is going to be like on this project. Oh, we're looking for your head and safety statement. We're looking for this that year. By the way, give us your, you know, it's like, for instance, there we often see, can we have your big and I-band number? Yeah, yeah, I get that to you. I get that to you. And then the week, the day of the year, we don't have your big and I-band number. You know, it's such simple stuff that we, if you get the good things, the small things right. And Stephen Bartlett says this in the 100, 100 rules of being a CEO or so, I can't remember the enemitable. He says this, the one thing that sets him apart and what we try to do is we do the small things right. That goes down to your payment application. Believe it or not, it's how you even do the lines on your payment application. The source of truth is the bill of quantities. If there is a bill of quantities, more than like, look, I'm a firm believer should be a bill of quantities on every job. Me too! Oh, we're right. The reason Paul and QS is an estimate, we are the extractor of data from a drawing, whether that's a 3D model, a 2D drawing. Believe it or not, we can price a measure off the back of a five-box, right. Because we just know how to do it, right. The only thing is QS is we rely on words, we rely on scope. Okay. Then we have rules of measure. There's books over here in Ireland that's the ARM4 with five coming out in England. It's S-M-7, you have says them, you know, you have different rules. You have the international rules now that are going to be coming out. Look, I'm talking pixel. Now, what I see sometimes is the payment application is based on the bill of quantities. But for some reason, and my little pair here is, some subcontractor is sending an invoice before an application to go, my invoice there for 40,000. The QS is going, no, can you send me a payment application? Before that, the QS is rolling their eyes, swearing under their breath and being, what on earth have I, but, you know, getting the small things right, that has only happened because you haven't had that meeting, we've said, these are the 10. This is what matters to me. You tell me what matters to you, we get these things right, we'll get on. That's what it should be right. And you were talking there about Stephen Bartlett and doing the small things right. I haven't read that book, but if we were to kind of put a line under this episode of what are those small things that can be done right by both the subcontractor and the main contractor to try and get out of this vortex of on account payments that this industry is in, what would you say they are? Well, it comes down with productivity. That's why the likes of our companies are there, because we're experts in it, right. When you employ a QS, and our main thing is, you know, a team of QS for less cost than one QS employee, and it's very true, productivity is the ability to manage yourself and your business, right. It's also to manage your time. And it's to manage your priorities to operate at a maximum performance. And how you do that is coming back to the small things. It's a logo on an Excel sheet. It's having the columns right. It's looking at the piece of work, extra work. Hold on here. Do I go by a bill rate or do I actually have to build up a rate to get that variation? No, Karl, that takes time and effort. Now, you've got to look at the small industry guys, SMEs. They are wearing all the hats, and they come home and they even, and they're doing their paperwork, and they go, "Ah, I got to just fire it in." That's why the likes of our companies, third-party companies are getting more successful, because not such a specialist. It's just that more companies are starting to use us now. It's because they're going, "Do you know what it is?" For a relatively small cost, these guys are actually getting my money. You know, we're not debt collectors, right? But we're actually getting you money that we feel that you are due. Do I want to go down the route of ADR? I've heard this view. This is absolutely not. Let's get into the room. Let's set this. The only one that wins if we go down to arbitration, or to the high court, are the lawyers, and the barrisers. I'm sorry for calling them out, or whatever. We don't want to go down that route. Nobody wants to go down that route, okay? Mediation, talking. There's a percentage of where, if you were to ask young QSs out there, now, what is the, what way do you want to communicate with the opposite side? And probably 90% of it would come back. Email. Email is you were hiding. Yeah, yeah. I agree. Pick up the phone. Teams calls. Meet the QS on the site. I haven't trained, how do you to meet the QS on the site? Engage with someone like Carolessa Madden. We get the men, the men in the boots. Walk the site. And then you get to see, and another thing is you get to see the fellas doing, you know, partitions and ceilings. And he's, we've got 400 meters done of four meter high firewatt. And you walk with the contractor and the QS on the site, and he's about to process your payment. And then we go, as we control in the next 200 meters, we'll have it done next week. No. No. That goes into next month's value-ish. Don't start to P-I-S-S people off. All right. And I'm going to come last from the contractor's QS point of view. So if you're receiving that documentation, and it's all over the place, it causes confusion, irritation, it's backfires on you. And you're going, man, do I have to keep sorrow on your stuff to get you paid? I want to get you paid. But you've got to see that QS, believe it or not, has someone or has some woman above them. That is their boss. So you've got to go upstairs and go to them. Look, I do think that Joe blogs these two, that 10,000 euros. What's the first thing Joe wants to say to them? Is their backup? No. But then he can't or she can't actually back you up. And look, people forget, the QS for a male contractor is the middle man or woman. You've got your directors above you or commercial management, that's above you, and they're going to you. Well, what's the story? You will also have subcontractors underneath you that are coming up at you and go, where's this? Where's this? Where's this? Where's this? The subcontractor that makes your life easier is the guy that you will have or girl or company. You will have them top of your list that will be trustworthy. And I guarantee it from job to job to job to job. And that's what you see in the industry at the moment, the larger contractors, how much they've put into procurement and supply change management systems over the last number of years. They're paying big money to get these systems at this because they want to partner with subcontractor because they know there's a serious resource issue in the world. And as the world of construction, the world of construction business has changed. It's evolved. And it's true. It's true increased, you know, global competition. There's constant innovation. But another thing that has to happen is there has to be lightning fast communication with capabilities. You've got to be able to pick up that phone and go, "How are you part, how's the family there?" "No, I'm sure not too bad. How are you feeling, I'm sure you're under pressure, blah, blah, blah. How are we getting on with my payment application?" Do you know what I mean? Your last five payment application has been spot on. I'm absolutely not worried. Yeah, that'd be central to you there. No problem at all. And when you get a rapport with someone, now if you don't embrace, if you don't embrace change, if you keep going on the road, I'm going to keep doing the same and being the same outcome and set result. I can't remember saying who said it was an Albert Einstein, you know, about, you know, whatever. I can't even remember the saying, you know, keep doing the same thing and looking for a different result. You know, if you do not embrace change, you will be left behind. Yeah, and I think just to wrap up what we're saying here, like that is a very simple way of looking at it. You know, I said a few thousand people listening means that there's a thousand at least listening now saying, "Yeah, I've got on account payments, I'm doing this." And like, whether that's up the chain, down the chain, probably both, right? And it's like, it's quite, we've got to change because it's holding us all back. And what we've narrated in this conversation, what you're explaining is that we're making it sound very simple, but, you know, communication, honesty, it's not me versus you, it's us. You need this, I'll help you do this, you help me do that. And I dread to think what other industries would think if they saw how we actually cooperate as a sector, because it is us against them. And there isn't enough to it. So I think if we keep doing, I'm trying to remember what that's saying is myself now, if you do what you always did, you expect to get what you always got, right? Or something along those lines. And so if there's thousands of you listening now thinking about on account payments and what a pain it is, how can we change? I think you've outlined it quite well. Last thing here, and it's so important, when you start a project, what is the goal, right? The goal is to be proud of your work, be proud, make some money, but not only this, you have a, there's a client that's actually billing this billing or doing a railway station or doing whatever they're doing. You want that product that you've had some sort of degree to say, you know, it is 20 years time when you're driving past it. I did that project. I do that. And another thing, and I'll go back to smaller builders that do our subcontractors that do one-off houses for couples or for 15 or 20 years time when that person has a son or a daughter, and they come back to you and they go up, do you know what I want you to build our house for a son or a daughter? Because when you, when I dealt with you at that time, and that goes back to even payment claims, there was never a hazard. And I'm, I'm trusting you, because you know what, you are proud of what you do. You don't care about the nice, you don't care about what this guy does, you don't care about what she does. You have pride in your work, and that goes back to not only to your workmanship and your skills, that goes down to how you work in business, i.e. payment applications, none of this payment on the call. I'm sick, look, I'm serious to what I do in my business, but I'm hoping that it's going to be your super caret on the other side. And, eh, you're not bankroll jobs. And the simple reason is this, and I go back to a groundwork contractor here on this, in one day alone, you could get 100 loads of stone. Your credit terms will be gone. You might see that money for a month or two. Guess who still has to pay their credit terms with the materials supplier or the stone supplier? You do. And what happens is then the mooring that you need stone badly, they will just go to you, will you pay a bit off that account there, and they'll go, and you'll go, I have money money, and they'll go, well, no stone, sir. My problem. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I completely agree with you. And it has been great to have you and your dulcet Irish tones, despite your Aston Villa allegiance on the show, taking a great amount from it. So thank you for coming on. We were going to the Blues on a Tuesday night, we're no going to the Burnable on a Wednesday night. Let's end it there. Let's end it there. No more. Because we're going to Bromley, but that's a different story, isn't it? I will put Patti's details in the show notes. Thank you for coming on the show, and everybody, I will speak to you as always next week. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mark. We hit that. [Music]
