Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard

Minnesota Vikings scouting report with Mike Wobschall of Bleav in Vikings

Go deep into the Giants' and Vikings' Week 1 matchup at MetLife Stadium, including the Brian Daboll-Brian Flores and Kevin O'Connell-Shane Bowen coaching battles, in this preview with Mike Wobschall of @Bleav in Vikings and Pat Leonard of the New York Daily News and Talkin' Ball with Pat Leonard.

Duration:: 54m
Broadcast on:: 06 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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It's Pat Leonard of the New York Daily News. Also has a podcast on the Believe Network talking ball with Pat Leonard. We're going to bring him in to talk Vikings Giants in a minute, but before we get to all of that, I want to tell you about Bet Online, the world's most trusted betting platform, and your number one source for everything online sports betting. Right now, you can receive a 50% free bet of up to $250 on your first deposit to bet on anything from baseball to formula and racing to, of course, the National Football League. Bet Online has every stat, every matchup, and even live odds and spreads, while the games are being played. When the games over, head on over to their online casino and get in on a game of Blackjack or Poker or Unwind with one of their over 150 slot games. Head to the website today to get in on the action. Use promo code Believe for your 50% free bet credit on your first deposit, up to $250. Bet Online, the game starts here. Let's bring in Pat Leonard right now. You can follow his work at the New York Daily News. You can follow him on X at P. Leonard, N-Y-D-N for New York Daily News. Of course, you can find his podcast Talking Ball with Pat Leonard, wherever you find all your other favorite podcasts, including this one. Hey, Pat, how's it going, bud? Mike, I'm doing well. I have the itch. I have the weak one itch. I'm excited for Vikings Giants. I'm excited for the X's and O's of it. The unknown, right? There's so much unknown of what's going to unfold. I'm pumped and I'm pumped to be on the show. Well, good. I'm glad you're here. I'm pumped to have you. We've never worked directly with one another, but talking beforehand with you, you've been to Minnesota to cover different stories. We've definitely crossed paths. And you were also on Radio Voice of the Vikings. Paul Allen's show earlier in the week. Paul, a very dear friend of mine, one of my first mentors in the business and the godfather to one of our daughters here. So I didn't listen back to your conversation yet. I'm sure it was good in entertaining. He's very good with guests and you're a learned football mind. So I'm sure you guys had a great conversation about Vikings Giants. We did. In fact, you know, he was noting several Minnesota general connections to the Giants. John Michael Schmitz, the center, obviously. Tyler Neubin, now a rookie, is going to factor in big time as well. Some very interesting ties in between the teams. Some that are not as obvious as others. Yeah. I think, you know, in a lot of ways Vikings Giants. I heard Bob Papa describe it this way. He said they're in each other's weight class. I thought, like, that's a really good way to describe this match up between these teams. They've got some similar storylines with focus on the quarterback situation. LSU wide receivers, who everyone loves. Like, there's a lot of parallels here. And I thought that was a really good way to put it. And a crazy stat I heard, Pat, the Giants have not won a home opener since 2010, which is unbelievable considering the talented and good teams the Giants have had. And I look at this match up on the board. I think it's one of the better, more even match-ups in week one. I'm really excited to watch it. What are some storylines you've been following? Or what are some things that you think are going to factor in on Sunday? Yeah. I think that's, first of all, I think that's a fair way to describe it. I mean, these are both teams with lower expectations in their division this year than they would like to have, but also have a lot of pressure on themselves to maybe show some progress right away. Both of their schedules dictate that they really need this game, right? Like the Vikings, after they play the Giants, their schedule is ridiculous. I mean, it's like, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, I think they have the Texans, the Packers, the Jets, and then they have the Lions, like Lions Rams. I mean, they need to win the Giants. It's after this. It's the Washington commanders and then it's Cleveland, Dallas. You know, they really don't get a break after that Seattle. So, first of all, I think there's a lot of pressure on them. What I'm looking for in this game is who takes the lead early? And I know that's a key in any game. But what I think will happen if the Giants take the lead is that, you know, they'll get Sam Darnold and the Vikings into more passing situations. And hopefully from the Giants end, let their pass rush dictate the game because that is what needs to dictate games for the Giants to win. Brian Burns, they just acquired in a trade this offseason from Carolina at the edge. Dexter Lawrence, one of the better defensive tackles in the lead. K-Von Thibodeau on the other edge, a number five overall pick. If they can get Minnesota, Kevin O'Connell, to drop Sam Darnold consistently, I think maybe that's the recipe for the Giants' success. Conversely, if the Vikings go ahead and the Vikings have control of the game's management, I think Aaron Jones on the ground targeted play action with Sam Darnold. I think that's how it could turn into an easier than expected Minnesota wins. I really am looking first and foremost at who grabs control in the first quarter. I think it'll have everything to do with how the whole day goes. Interesting, yeah. You know, I think, you know how you were talking about just getting back into the swing of things, you know, for the NFL season. And you go through this with your various jobs, the podcast and the New York Daily News where you get into this routine and not schematically and exes and alls, but you're preparing for the Giants' opponent, right? Like you're studying who they are. You're doing radio interviews. You're doing your own content. So like you got to be a subject matter expert on the other team as well at various times. So week one, you know, you just get more time to do that. And I feel like you get to know your week one, your team's week one opponent more than maybe you get to know their week seven opponent. And for the Giants, for me, it was especially that way this year, Pat, because of the off-season hard knocks. And so, you know, I look at what they did adding three starters on the offensive line, losing Saquon Barkley, but getting Malik neighbors and how they feel about Devin Singletary. So, you know, I think we, those of us who watch that show, you got a really good look at the Giants and the hard knocks. Did you watch that series and whether you did or not? What did people around the organization think of being on hard knocks? I was with the Vikings for 15 years. We didn't do it one time. We avoided hard knocks like it was the plague. You know, no one wanted to do it on the football side of things. So what was that experience like for the organization for you? What did you think of the series? I thought it was very interesting. I thought it was well done by HBO. I thought the Giants showed more than anybody expected, which credit to them, credit to HBO. The Giants never wanted to be on hard knocks either. John Marrow was on the record saying like absolutely not 100%. I think doing the off-season version versus showing things on the field, player cuts, maybe that had a way to find a middle ground for the Giants to be on. Joe Shane definitely does not mind the camera. I think that helped as well. You know, I think that my view of it is probably different than some others. Actually, what's most fascinating to me, Mike, is that depending on who it was watching, they had a different takeaway. So in other words, someone who is around the Giants every day and covering them constantly and as sources in the building and outside and around the league, there were things I was watching where it was something I already knew, but then you're watching it maybe unfold differently or being described in a different way than you know to be true or maybe you knew that they were targeting a certain free agent, but you didn't know there was like Robert Hunt, for example. That was one of the guards in the top, let's say four or five flight of guards that you knew they were in that market, but was Jonah Jackson their preference, was Robert Hunt their preference. So sometimes there were little details that you saw that kind of clarified where things stacked up. Also the fact, for example, that they actually believed Tyrod Taylor was going to come back. If they offered him a certain contract, he was never going to come back here. They left him on the bench when he was healthy last season for Tommy DeVito of all people. So like that was never going to happen. And then obviously the Saquon Barkley conversation driving the whole thing. And really, I mean, Mike, from a big picture standpoint, the most noteworthy and interesting part of it is the John Mara Joe Shane dynamic, because Joe Shane has a belief in how this team needs to continue to be built and come together into the future in a long term build. He wants to sustain success. He wants to use positional value and do things a way that he believes is correct that he saw in Buffalo. But you saw kind of that natural tug between the owner, the organization, the touchy situation with Saquon Barkley and getting rid of that player who was the face of their franchise. So as you go into this year, your main question was how do people feel about it? I think it was viewed on the outside as a success. I think internally it's a mix of they came off well in their minds in a lot of areas. But I think overall, there are some chords it touched on that could be ballooning into bigger issues and you could reflect on what you saw in June and July on HBO and saying that was indicative or for shadowing of, let's say, something to come. Interesting. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. I want to get back to more like Vikings giants things here in a minute. But one thing I would say about what the Giants did this offseason, Pat, is you don't know if Daniel Jones is going to be back in three years from now for them, right? We just don't know. I hope for his sake, he is. I hope he succeeds and does well. He seems like a great guy and someone that you would definitely, you know, would be an asset to your organization from a leadership standpoint, face of the franchise standpoint, that whole thing. So I hope he plays well, but you don't know if he will or not. And if he doesn't play well this year, I think the Giants are looking for a new quarterback. So there might have been some people who wanted the Giants to get a new quarterback this year or someone to compete with him. But the thing is what the Giants did to so they obviously they're in on Jones. So now we got to support him, right? We got to build it up and I think the beautiful thing about that is even if they're wrong on Jones and they have to move off of him and go to someone else, what they did this offseason will help that quarterback succeed. Adding the offensive lineman, adding Malik neighbors, I like Brian Deball. So I think they did a lot of things that are going to help them sustain long term success, which you said Joe Shane is really centered on right now. No, I think you make a good point, which is a neighbors really is the crux of it, right? You know, that looks like the kind of player who no matter who the quarterback is next year, no matter who the GM and coaches three years from now, he looks like a building block player, somebody who attracts from agents, somebody who's going to help your offense, help your team. Hopefully be a face of the franchise for a long time. So I totally agree with you on that long term thing. I think really that's the context we can evaluate Joe Shane in as a general manager here is now he did pay Daniel Jones on this contract extension. So he technically is his quarterback right now. But I think from a Giants organizational standpoint, what you just said is that you hit the nail on the head. The organization's aim is in 2025. What they have done is setting themselves up to have continuity. All these young players under contract growing together. And if Daniel Jones becomes the guy or they have to replace him with somebody who they can support with a solid and strong foundation and structure. That that is how they could kind of take off into the future, no doubt about it. The interesting part in the context of it in the asterisk, of course, is Daniel knows that they tried to replace him or draft his successor. Right. It happened. Everybody saw it. They saw the trade efforts to go up to three to get Drake May. They saw Jayden Daniels being on their board. They spent more assets in time, Mike, on scouting quarterbacks this off season than any season I can remember. And I've been on the beat since 2016. So that's an interesting element. As you and I talk here also, we're just coming off of Joe Shane being on a hot mic on the Chicago Bears hard knocks. Yeah, saying to Ryan polls must be nice to not be scouting, you know, and then he kind of stops, but it's it pulls as a quarterback's. So long story short is, yes, they look like they could be positioned for something come 2025. They have to find a way, though, to get through 2024 in a promising way. So to your point, you add resources to the offensive line. If the O line protects well and Daniel doesn't play well, now you can say, well, hey, let's get another guy in here. It'll look a lot better, whether it's free agency, whether it's the draft. But if some of those pieces that they've added kind of crumble around the quarterback and it's not just number eight, that's where you start to say, well, wait, what does the foundation really look like? Yeah. All right, so Vikings giants, you know, mentioning at the top of the show, these, these teams have a lot of parallel lines to them right now. I think another one is I look at the O line versus D line matchup on both sides. Typical and burns against Darissa and O'Neill. Awesome matchup. And then flipping that around, Grinard and Van Ginkle against the Giants tackles. Again, you know, Andrew Thomas and Grinard, I mean, can't wait to watch that on every single snap. And then Luminor at right tackle against Van Ginkle and Dallas Turner on that side. So, you know, if, if, if a person can take their eye off the ball for a few snaps and watch O line versus D line. I think it's an entertaining matchup on Sunday. Absolutely. Let me put a question to you. So the giants behind extra Lawrence at defensive tackle, they do not have an obvious solution next to him or behind him. It's kind of like hoping for guys to kind of grab it. So I think the Vikings could run the ball up the interior on the Giants. I also conversely, I'm wondering if the Giants will be able to run the ball pretty well against an interior for the Vikings that does not look particularly, particularly imposing on the defensive line. I'm wondering from your standpoint, how do you feel the Viking stack up on the interior at both spots, both, you know, run blocking against extra Lawrence and company on the interior and then trying to stop the Devin Singletary, like a Russian attack. So interesting question, I propable network asked me to write a piece on areas of concern for the Vikings heading into the season where three of them and one of them I said, are they going to get pushed around on the interior of both. And I think that's a concern. And, you know, you've been on the beat since 16 you said, I mean, when you're when you're in a period of transition as an organization, you know, the Vikings Jim is, is in his third season. O'Connell in his third season. I mean, they're transitioning a lot of pieces. You can't just get everything done at once you got to go in in stages. They just haven't quite gotten to the interior yet. Mm. Mm. You know, they all they bring back, break, blend, Blake Brando to play left guard. He was sort of a key reserve last year. He's not a small guy, but, you know, he's a guy who's been a reserve and has been elevated to a starting position Garrett Bradbury is the center. And he's all right, but just okay. And Ed Ingram is an early draft pick from a few years ago who's underperformed. So I think this is an area of concern. If there was, yeah, like, like the Niners are the Vikings opponent in week two. That's a problem. Malik Collins, John Hargrave. That's a big problem for the Vikings interior. I think that Dexter Lawrence is a huge problem for Garrett Bradbury, big two-gapping nose tackle. But to your point, Pat, there's not like a wingman there. Though I think they can put extra hands on Dexter Lawrence. And if you look at Dexter Lawrence against the Vikings, he's had two tackles for loss in the last two games. Now, nose tackles, detacles, they don't live in the box score just because they're not in the box score doesn't mean they didn't affect the game. But you just haven't seen Dexter Lawrence ruin the game against the Vikings. So I give him a fighting chance there just because there's not a wingman for Dexter. But it's a concern. It's a concern, though, because Dexter Lawrence, we've seen him. He can just wreck the game. That's a big guy right there. And the Vikings are not strong on the interior on offense. How about defensively? Defensively. So they signed Jerry Tillery. They bring back Jonathan Bullard. They have Harrison Phillips. You know, Harrison Phillips is like, I mean, he's a veteran and he's reliable. You know, you're never going to be embarrassed with him. But he's not like Dexter Lawrence. He's not going to. He's not just going to take over on the interior. And it's like, we can't even go there anymore. And Devin Singletary is, I mean, he's low center of gravity. Quick feet. Really good running inside. So these, this isn't, this is an area that the Giants should try to exploit for sure. And so I think, I think that's an awesome point that you bring up because, you know, I mentioned like, Hey, look on the outside. Look how flashy and how awesome it is for both teams on the outside. Coaches are probably doing what you're doing where it's like, we can't go over there. Where can we go? And I think up the interior is where you go against the Vikings. Well, no, you make a really good point, though, is that Dexter Lawrence probably sees a lot of double teams then, which, and this is the, this is part of the investment in Brian Burns, the idea being. Okay, like if Brian Burns always has a one on one out there, and so does cave on tibido, even if Dexter's not getting there because he's double team now you're maybe getting more favorable pass rush matchups and situations. Yeah, it's funny, though, Mike, right? Like the interior lines, it's, it's almost like referees, like if they're doing their job, nobody talks about them, right? But if they're not doing their job, you know, either side. It suddenly becomes like the number one thing. It wrecks the way your offense or defense is operating. And Mike, another question for you. As we have this conversation and you're talking about the Viking step chart. Now, you know, in New York, obviously expectations are not high for what their final win total will be this season. And the roster is still in a constant state of flux and rebuild. But when I look at the fee on the field at these depth charts, I actually feel like the Giants talent wise in a lot of areas seem to stack up pretty well against Minnesota. I guess one area, I think Minnesota looks like they're clearly ahead would be the second their secondary compared to the Giants secondary, which is extremely young. And of course, going against the team with Justin Jefferson, that's not exactly something that you want to be doing. But, I don't know, would you agree with me that the Giants look like maybe they have, I guess, a slightly more talented roster than what Minnesota is putting on the field. Or do you feel like this looks like a pretty even kind of matchup between the two teams talent wise. Yeah, I think I wouldn't, I wouldn't disagree that it's a maybe a leg up for the Giants talent wise as you stack it up across the board. So yeah, I do agree with that, but I think that there are areas where the Vikings can say this is our advantage. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big row as man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get a $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com/results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. At your job, do you ever have to deal with a nose roller? How about a snub bully? Well, if you're installing a new conveyor belt system, dealing with the different components can sound like you're speaking a foreign language. Luckily, you've got a team ready to help. Granger's technical product specialists are fluent in maintenance, repair and operations. So whenever you want to talk shop, just reach out. Call clickgranger.com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. Here, like we don't have many, but this is one of them and we got to attack it here. And I think that Kevin O'Connell is very good at that. No one's good at everything, and I don't think Kevin O'Connell is perfect. But a couple of things have happened, Pat, since O'Connell was in Minnesota, that really opened my eyes to him. So first of all, his pedigree played for Bill Belichick and played with Tom Brady and then has coached on some talented staffs in Washington and then under McVay with the Rams. And so it's this modern way of thinking in the NFL with these young coaches. Younger is not always better, but in a lot of ways it is like O'Connell is very match up oriented, where he's like, every single week, he's like, okay, what do we got this week? Who are we playing? He's not going in there being like, I'm Kevin O'Connell. We're the Vikings. This is what we do. That's not how he looks at it. He's like, who are we playing? Because that's going to dictate what we do. He wanted to trade for TJ Hopkinson, who's not going to play in this game, but he is a perfect fit in the Vikings offense. He brought Cam Acres from the Rams to Minnesota. And last year, Cam Acres was the best looking running back on the team. He's with Houston now. But O'Connell knew that would happen because he was with him with the Rams. He was a great fit in the Rams scheme, so he knew he'd be a great fit in the Vikings scheme. And then he pounded the table for Jordan Addison at a time when I think the GM was going to trade out. And O'Connell was like, we got to stay here and take him. And then they took him. And you can see in those draft videos that teams release after the draft, O'Connell was like, just see, I told you, just stay there, take him. This guy's going to be great. And he had 10 touchdowns last year. So I think O'Connell really understands personnel, scheme, and who he needs to do what he wants to do. So I think in those areas where the Vikings have matchup advantages on offense, they're really going to be able to take advantage of it. I'm glad you mentioned that. Sorry, go ahead. No, but I think overall talent-wise, it's an even matchup or I give the edge to the Giants. I'm glad you mentioned O'Connell there in that context as well because, you know, right at the outset, you asked me what I was looking at and I was talking about, you know, which team could dictate the game by taking an early lead. And part of the reason that to me is the key to the game is because I think Minnesota has a coaching advantage in this game, a distinct one. You know, I think Kevin O'Connell versus Shane Bowen, a first time or a first year, I should say, defensive coordinator in New York with a new and a more vanilla scheme than what Wink Martindale was running. And then on the other side, even though Brian Daybell had a lot of success as a full-time play caller in Buffalo, he's now calling plays. Obviously, he showed in 2022, he was able to kind of, like you said, look at every week and say, here's what we can do. Here's what we got to steer away from and craft it to that game. So he has that ability. But Brian Flores is something entirely different. Flores knows Dable very well. Flores pressure is very heavy. Dable historically has not succeeded well with his offense against pressure. We actually saw it a lot here in practice against Martindale's defensive training camp for two years. So I think that the Giants, as much as I think a lot of people in their minds, obviously remember the two matchups two years ago, the late season that the Vikings pull out at the end, but the Giants did score. And then the playoff game where Daniel Jones set records in a postseason and a wildcard win on the road. Mike Dable came to the podium the other day and was determined, I think he might have said it three times, determined to make sure everybody knows this Flores defense is not the same one we faced in the playoffs two years ago, right? I think that's his way of saying like, this isn't going to be that easy, but I personally believe, and I think I talked to a lot of people around the league about this matchup, like you said, we're preparing for it all the way to week one. I think the Vikings distinct advantage in this game is their coaching staff. Interesting. Yeah, you know, you bring up a good point because I remember those those two Giants Vikings games that were so close to one another and then ones in the playoffs. It really to me was when I was like, okay, Eric Kendricks, who I was with when I was with the Vikings for a long time and was a great player in Mike Zimmer scheme. I'm like, yeah, this is the end of the road for him because he could not go sideline to sideline with Barkley and Daniel Jones and that whole thing and Dave all definitely had the Vikings over a barrel there with that scheme. And it is not the same, the personnel is different, the scheme is different. You know, the Vikings defense is really undergoing a makeover right now. And, and it's a makeover within a makeover and what I mean by that is when the offseason started in the secondary at corner. They were really young Mackay Blackman, third round pick from last year. Kyrie Jackson, fourth round pick this year, they had Byron Murphy, who was a veteran. Other than that, it was Blackman, Kyrie Jackson, Akayla Bevins, Andrew Butch. These are all young players, Pat, who were, you know, on the early end of their career arc and developing under Flores. And then there's the tragedy with Kyrie Jackson who passed away in a car accident. On the first day of camp, Mackay Blackman tore his ACL, he's out for the year. On the second day of camp, Shaq Griffin, a free agent signing who's going to be a starter had a soft tissue injury and he missed the rest of camp. But that sort of, that adversity there and tragedy and injury caused the Vikings to have to respond rapidly and rebuild that room. They signed Stefan Gilmore, they signed Fabian Moreau, they signed Bobby McCain. So now it's Griffin, Murphy, Gilmore, Moreau, these are all veterans now. It's so interesting because everything else they've done has been, it's been a youth movement, Daniel Hunter, Out, Jonathan Gernard, Andrew Van Ginkle in. And so it's a makeover within a makeover and I can't wait to see. I mean, we all know about Malik neighbors, Pat, but like there's some other receivers on the Giants roster that people aren't going to put in their fantasy lineups, but like they're pretty good players. I mean, yeah, like the cupboard is not bare at pass catcher. I know Darren Waller's gone, Saquon Barkley's gone, but there are some, some athletes as pass catchers that can be potential problems for a cornerback room that is freshly rebuilt, like not this off season. Like they rebuilt that cornerback room in the last five weeks. That's a really interesting point. In fact, the Vikings probably, I mean, I know the Niners lately feels like they've had the craziest summer, but the Vikings first couple weeks of camp where there was so much turmoil, there's tragedy, there's injury. I mean, it was really something to see. By the way, random question real quick is, are Jordan Addison and Naylor, do you think they'll play in this game? It looks like Naylor. I'm not sure on Addison surprisingly going to play. I thought it was a high ankle sprain that he sustained in Cleveland during the joint practices must not have been because I think he's playing. He was a limited participant in practice on Wednesday and O'Connell in his press conference was like, I feel good about him making the game. And you've been around this thing long enough. If a coach says that, he's probably playing. Yeah, he's not putting his neck out there if it's wrong. Sorry to change the subject, but yeah, back to the Giants receivers. You know, I think Darius Layton's a guy, everybody knows well, he's been around. He's kind of like that quiet, steady veteran, just led the team in receiving yards for the last five years, which is really a crazy stat. Obviously, they've been five lean years on offense. But yeah, and I remember in that playoff game, I know everybody remembers he had a big drop on kind of like a cross the field route late in the game that could have sealed it. But he's reliable. He can run the whole tree. He will beat people deep also reliable underneath played with Daniel Jones for a long time. So a lot of chemistry there. If Daniel needs like a security blanket on a third and seven, that's the guy. Wandale Robinson is a second round pick out of Kentucky from a couple years ago, had injuries early on this time. They feel like he's finally full strength. He's like the late round fantasy pick in a PPR league. You know, he might not have a ton of yards every game, but he might have like eight catches and two rushes per game type guy. A lot of underneath, I think is going to happen, Mike, that maybe people are seeing Malik neighbors there. They see jail and Hyatt the deep threat from Tennessee for a bullet in a cough award winner in college as the top receiver in NCAA football division one. And they see these types of players and they say, well, they're going deep. And the Giants do want to push the ball deep. In fact, that was their primary focus of training camp was bombs away. We have to push the ball down the field. We need more explosives. But I think in a game like this, especially with some kind of strong, like big name. Like you said, corners now in the secondary that they're facing. I actually think you're going to see a lot of screen pass to Devin Singletary the running back. Catch and run opportunities on drag routes from a league neighbors where they try to get the defense slid to one side, get neighbors out in space for a two yard catch that turns into a 60 yard gain. But this is by far the best skill position group at receiver that Daniel Jones has had because you can remember he just missed. Odell Beckham Jr. Beckham got traded in 2019 before the Giants drafted Daniel. Interesting. Yeah, I think. I know Flores is good. Like his defensive coordinator is going to be aware of Jones and the mobility, but. You know, guys screaming off the edge with Grinnard and Van Ginkle. I know those tackles are good, but. I just see Jones extending plays where Gilmore and Moreau and Shaq Griffin and Byron Murphy can do a good enough job and coverage of. It's a good battle like neighbors gets his, but it's not like a 350 yard passing day for Jones, but he's extending plays and picking up first downs with dump offs. Like you said, the single terrier or by by with his legs. And well, and I see it being a low scoring grinder type of a game. No question. This is something interesting too. I think. So I said on the one side of the ball on the one side of the ball, these are two points. I think the Minnesota needs to heed it. You could tell me how you think they'll do here on offense. I think one thing I observed in those two games in 2022 with O'Connell is while I have, I have an immense amount of respect for him as a coach and as a person. I felt like he there were times where he should have run the ball more into Martin Dale's run defense, but he kept passing it playing right into the hands of a defensive coordinator who knows if there's anything Martin Dale does well. And the best is he attacks pressures or ups are he attacks protections. He knows how to get around protections and get to the quarterback and flust to them. That's how like the book is out on jail and hurts now in the NFL because Martin Dale showed everybody you rush him and flush him from the right force him to his left and he doesn't throw as well going to his left. Like that's just one example right. So anyway, O'Connell needs to run the ball when it's time to run the ball needs to commit to it. Can he do it. Secondly, on the other side, and this is what you made me think of this. One thing the Giants have shown Mike is that not only did they invest resources and free agency in their offensive line and try to strengthen it across the board. They're also running with a lot heavier personnel two tight ends on the field and even a lot of times showing a tight end in the backfield as a full back. And I think specifically that applies to this matchup because I think Flores is going to send the house a lot of times and that's something the Giants typically and Daniel Jones typically does not handle well. So I'm wondering from your standpoint on offense will will O'Connell commit to the run if it's time to on defense. Do you think if the Giants commit more men into the box that solves addressing Flores is different pressure packages or is he too multiple to be able to handle that down and down. All right so you awesome point about O'Connell in the passing the Vikings 77% of their offense came through the through the air last year, which was number one in the NFL. Yeah, they just they just gave up on it. I mean, now in fairness to Kevin. Yeah, the run blocking was not great. It was it was poor. The run blocking was poor. And Alexander Madison, the starting running back had zero rushing touchdowns. I mean, he couldn't break tackles and he just wasn't producing. So if you're O'Connell, you're sitting there being like, well, I've got Addison and Justin Jefferson and TJ Hockinson and Kurt Cousins. So am I going to just continuously pound my head against this wall or am I going to just air it out with cousins. I mean, I would do the same. So he doesn't have cousins anymore. He has darned. That's a far different situation. And he's got Aaron Jones now as a running back as opposed to what he had before. So the offensive line is the same. I think it's a substandard group when it comes to run blocking, especially on the interior. So he still has that challenge, but he's got less of a pull to pass it because of his quarterback. Not being cousins. It's Darnold and more of a pull to run it because he's got Aaron Jones. So I think there's a intentional concerted effort to run the ball to be more balanced. I don't think that O'Connell can help himself though over the length of a season, he's not going to be able to help himself. He's got Jefferson and Addison. And for all the all the quips we can make about Sam Darnold and the Jets and the Panthers and just not fulfilling promise. You know, I think if you watch his tape or if you watch him now, you see he's got a live arm. Like he's an athlete and he can throw it. So the question is like, this is the best situation he's ever been in in terms of a starter with weapons. This is it for Sam. Like if Sam can't do it here, you know, he just can't do it. You'll excuse the previous stops. Yeah. So we'll see what happens. But I think in this game because it's the first game and it's Sam Darnold, I think Kevin will try to run the ball. But I think over the course of the season, I don't think he's going to be able to help himself. He's going to throw it a bunch. Interesting. So to me, this brings up one of the key questions of the game too and I put it to you. Is is Darnold, has he played well enough? Does he look good enough where he's not a concern in this game? He's an asset at this point. And the secondary question to that is, are we looking at like with JJ McCarthy's injury. Is this the second best quarterback on the roster if everyone was healthy playing against the Giants on Sunday or, you know, has Darnold played well enough where he had, you know, he earned this anyway. Yeah. He's Darnold, I would, to your first question, he's not a weapon or an asset in the matchup. He's a facilitator. Now, I think if it goes well the season, I think Darnold parlays this into a starting role somewhere else. New Orleans to replace Derek Carr as an example Seattle to replace Geno Smith, something like that. But this is Jay Jay McCarthy's team. He's the starting quarterback next year. He was running a pretty good race to be the starter as soon as this year. I don't think it was going to happen. But I don't think it was like Sam Darnold won the race by 10 lengths like it was close. So I just, and I do not want to cast stones at Sam Darnold because I'm up. I like to be positive and I like to give guys a chance and I'm rooting for people to succeed no matter who they are where they're at. I'm a Minnesota and I used to work for the Vikings but I'm not sitting here like, you know, with like, you know, the purple foam finger rooting for the Vikings to win every game. But, you know, I want people to do well. But I truly honestly deep down feel like Sam Darnold is at best just operate the offense and get out of there without ruining the game. You know, that's how I feel about him and maybe I'm wrong, but that's just sitting here right now. That's how I feel. No, that's good insight. I mean, I've taught to people in the league who think in this game, basically, if the Giants pressure Sam consistently, the Giants can win the game and if they don't, they won't. And that's, you know, and I mean, you could say that really about a lot of quarterbacks, but specifically to this matchup, just that Darnold will be able to pick you apart, hit those underneath throws, move the ball down the field into the red zone, give them plenty of scoring opportunities if the Giants don't generate enough pressure, which to me goes back to do the Vikings have an early lead, or are they throwing trying to play catch up. The interesting thing is that he comes from San Francisco backing up Purdy, and I think the ideal scenario of what this looks like if the Vikings, if this turns out well this season, is for him to look like Purdy in San Francisco, right? Like it's, it's that facilitator. It's that look at all the weapons we have, right? Deploy him as you will. So, well, so going back to that point about the Niners and Kyle Shanahan, you know, I look at Kyle Shanahan and I'm like, you know, he knows what he's doing. I think I think he's a sharp offensive minded guy, a lot like O'Connell where it's like, I know what I'm doing, and I know the type of players I need to do this. Going into last year, the Niners were definitely a contender in the NFC. And Kyle Shanahan said, I'll choose him to be one snap away from running my offense. So that goes a long way for me in Donald's favor. No doubt. But, but I also just, I've watched him. At USC, I thought he was a great athlete. He was extending plays, throwing on the run look great, but he's at USC, right? And he's playing against not USC. Then he goes to New York and Carolina just doesn't look good. So I just have my reservations about him operating the offense at the level of Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison at the level that Kevin O'Connell expects and has designed it. I think Sam Donald is straining to get up to that level. Doesn't mean he can't get there. I just think he is straining to keep up with what O'Connell expects and with what Justin Jefferson can do. This is all why I think what you said earlier is true. I think this is going to be a low scoring height game and I think there's going to be a mistake that's either made or forced by one side or the other. And I think the over under is like 41 or something like that. You know, I think that's fair. You know, I think it's going to be. There's some really good players on the field, but because of the quarterback play because of the coaching matchup. And because like you said, same weight class, both teams who are have some intriguing game breakers, but neither of both of them have to prove that they are more than what they are viewed as at the moment. Like, I do think it's going to be low scoring and tight. Yeah. Just before we wrap it up, I want to go back to one question and point that you were making. And this is Giants offense against Flores. And you were talking about Flores and the multiple type of looks. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big row as man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com/results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn. The place to be. To be. At your job, do you ever have to deal with a nose roller? How about a snub bully? Well, if you're installing a new conveyor belt system, dealing with the different components can sound like you're speaking a foreign language. Luckily, you've got a team ready to help. Rangers technical product specialists are fluent in maintenance, repair and operations. So whenever you want to talk shop, just reach out. Call clickgranger.com or just stop by. Granger for the ones who get it done. But the aggressive nature of him and his play calling and the blitzing and then the Giants big personnel packages. Thinking about it, I think that's the way to go. If I'm day ball is you got the shiny new toy in the league neighbors and, you know, the. The very capable receivers behind him that I think you can get to. In some situations in this game and then eventually this season, but against the Vikings, just thinking about it, Pat, like Van Ginkel off the edge, Grenard and Dallas Turner off the edge. The corners are good for the Vikings. I think it's 22 personnel, 12 personnel, Devin Singletary. And sort of road grading this thing in between the tackles. I think that's the meat and potatoes of this. I think that's what I would do to attack this Vikings defense given the Giants personnel. Interesting, interesting. And so, you know, it's fascinating is the teams always try to say like, yeah, we're not preparing for the week one opponent yet. We're just running different things. I viewed how they were running through camp with that type of personnel as, yeah, it's going to be a part of the offense, but I think that was them like throughout August, repping for this Vikings game. I mean, you can't help but over prepare for week one. I mean, I know they're like, oh, we're not even scheming or game planning all preseason and they're not scheming and game planning for their preseason opponents, but like it's week one, like they're thinking about week one all the time. You know, you can't help but over prepare for it. So tell me about your pod, talking ball with Pat Leonard on the Believe Network. Yeah, it's great. We do a lot of Giants talk. I do three podcasts a week during the season Mondays and Thursdays at 9 p.m. or like during during the season, I go at, I start at halftime of Thursday night football. And we talk all NFL. There are a lot of Giants fans who come in because for the New York Daily News. I'm there every day. But, you know, we did a full season predictions episode, Super Bowl predictions, everything division winners in our last pod. But the thing I'm really most excited about Mike and thanks for asking is I do talking ball live post game from the press box after every Giants game home and away. And so I go downstairs after the game. I watch the game in person. I go downstairs. I talk to Brian Deble. I talk to all the players in the locker room. And I come back up to the press box. And after I file my story quickly for the Daily News, I go live on YouTube. My YouTube channel is PL on NFL, my initials on NFL. And that is, I think, my favorite and the fans favorite content that we do there because it's bringing injury updates, breaking news, post game quotes, insights that you could only have from being there at the stadium from the game. You know, straight from the horse's mouth with Brian Deble. I think not a lot of people are doing anything like that. And I think it's, it clearly is a popular hit among the fan base. And I'm really excited about it this season. Awesome. That's a lot of fun. It's fun to come up with that innovative digital content, you know, and you find what works and you stick with it. And then every year you try and spin up something new, right? And I remember, you know, being with the Vikings and having the advantage of being inside the walls and a member of the team, doing digital content. One of our most successful things that we did was with Paul Allen, who you were on with earlier in the weekend. It was PA and Wabi, which was my nickname PA and Wabi in the lobby. So we would be inside the team hotel in the lobby as, you know, you know, you get off the bus and you get in and get your keycard with the envelopes and all that. And we set up a camera and two mics and talk about the game in the lobby and you got, you know, Sam Bradford walking behind us, you know, going up to his hotel room. Yeah. So, you know, your live YouTube idea is a cool idea too. And it's just fun coming up, spinning up new ideas in the content space. You know, it seems like you're doing a great job of that. No, thanks. And yeah, what I love about here on the Believe Network too is like, so all of the, so we have the podcast episodes where we have guests on as well. We've had Adam Schefter on Barry Sanders, Sao Palantonio, you know, you name it. But then obviously those live on the Believe Network, but also all of these live chats and shows that I do, I still talk, I still handle them. Like podcasts, we do an open, we might do a league topic, we might do a Giants topic and that goes on the audio feed as well. So the whole Believe Network talking ball audio feed is all of those lives, whether people are participating on YouTube or not. Yeah, I think it's fantastic and I'm grateful to believe for helping me host it. Awesome. Well, you'll be at the game. I will not. So enjoy the game. Good luck covering it. And we're connected now so I'm excited to sort of stay in touch with you and get your thoughts about the game afterwards. I'll let you work a little bit after the game, but then I'm going to hit you up with some text messages and see what you thought. No, I love it. I was going to say during the game. I mean, there's something you see, like we got to communicate. We got to bounce ideas off each other. Your insights, so, you know, I'll bring them right into talking ball live post game. I personally, by the way, you didn't ask me. I think that the Vikings win a close one here. I think it ends up being like, you know, 17, 16 or, you know, 20 to 17, something like that. It's interesting. Yeah, you're right. I forgot to go to the prediction sector. Oh, good. But let's do that. It's interesting because I was earlier in the week on Mondays, Brian McKinney, former Vikings Ravens offensive lineman, Brian McKinney joins me on believe in Vikings. He's the cohost on Mondays and he got Prince Amu Kamara to join us. Prince. We were talking about. Yeah, we were talking about the game. I enjoyed my conversation with Prince quite a bit. And I predicted a giant, a close giants win 20 to 19. I think it was, you know, and Prince like fell out of his chair almost, you know, and I'm like, you know, I just think it's a close. I mean, we've all been to so many of these games. Like it was so rare when I walked into a stadium, Pat, and I was like, we have no chance to win this game. Or I said, they have no chance to beat us in this game. Almost every single time. I'm like, there's going to be two or three weird plays that happen. And that's going to determine, determine the outcome of the game. That's right where I'm sitting here. I think it's 21, 20, 2019, something weird like that. A missed field goal at the end to win it or a made field goal. It's, I see something like that. 21, 20 is great because it's right on, if it's 41, that's right on the line that he wins. That's, that's how it happens, right? So yeah, I think the X factors are the Vikings usage of their tight ends without Hockinson. They have Johnny Mont Josh Oliver. So if they can be disciplined and run out of heavy sets, I think they got a pretty good chance. The X factor to me for the Giants is Daniel Jones, extending plays with his mobility. And I just think the Giants have just a slight edge being at home personalized and I see him win in the game, but I think it's really, really close. One thing, yeah, I agree. I'll go right with you at 21, 20. I think one thing I didn't hit on too much, but it is, I'm basically not certain or confident Darnold will take full advantage of this. But the Giants secondary, especially when they joined practice against Aaron Rodgers and the Jets, it was bombs away for the Jets. I mean, they're supposed to be a Ben, but don't break more this year than they have been in the past. It was over top of them. It was downfield 25 yard gain. So, you know, there's a possibility that Addison and Jefferson could get behind them for some really big games in this game. Like, that is something that everyone in New York is kind of, you know, the fans are nervous about. They signed to Dory Jackson, who they didn't even intend to bring back to help their secondary. If Darnold can take advantage of that, that's how this could become not a low scoring game. I'm just not quite sure, but, you know, I think maybe they hit a big one on their second drive and they get an early lead. And like you said, they kind of established a run. So, 21, 20, I like it. All right. That's where we're at. And we will find out if we're right or wrong. And then we'll talk about it after the game. So, it'll be a lot of fun. Hey, Pat, you're on the Giants beat. It's New York Daily News. It's Twitter. It's podcast. The whole thing. So, I appreciate you spending. I mean, we just wrap for 49 minutes, man. I really appreciate this time on what is a very busy week for you. So, it was a lot of fun. Mike, this is great. I'm so glad I was on and looking forward to Sunday. So, thanks again. All right. We'll do it again. That's Pat Leonard, everyone. We thank you all for listening to another episode of Believe in Vikings. This is Wabi signing off for now. Enjoy the game on Sunday, everyone. And we'll talk next week. Until next time, keep believing. 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If you want to see a place where the father just kicks the **** out of his son, this would be the place. What do you like about it, Matt? Ditto. Father, son, dynamic duo talking about the game of football that we love and share and appreciate together. And, you know, hey, it's an extension of what we did, right? Growing up, I was able to watch my father play football. Then obviously watch him as a broadcaster. And then he taught me the game of football and share the wisdom that he learned throughout his playing career. And, you know, hey, sometimes we're full of it. And sometimes we actually know a thing or two. Well, we do do a lot of research. At least I do. You're a little spotty, but you know, you're hanging in there. It's fun. I love doing this and it's been awesome. Sims Complete. Check us out. Wherever your podcasts are available on the Believe Network. Appreciate it. See ya. If you liked the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening. (crowd cheering) [BLANK_AUDIO]