- Welcome back everyone to the frontline with Joe and Joe. Joe Basilow and Joe Recinello, you're exactly right Joe. - We work for the man upstairs as you do. - You're setting me up quite well. You just gave me an alley youth. - The greatest revolutionary act to commit right now is to open your mouth and speak the truth. - Whether you're an academic or you're a regular guy, you have to be fearless. - And once more, dear brothers and sisters, let us go into the breach. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello again everyone and welcome back to the frontline with Joe and Joe, Joe Basilow as always joined by Joe Recinello. And once more, dear brothers and sisters, let us go into the breach on the Veritas Catholic Radio Network, 1350 on your AM dial, 103.9 on your FM dial, spreading the truth of the Catholic faith to the New York City metropolitan area. You know what I'm about to say, two things. Download the app, share it with your friends. You'll have access to all of our station's content, not just the frontline with Joe and Joe. And if you're like with Joe and I do, and you're watching this on social media, Rumble X, Facebook, YouTube, please like, subscribe, share, do all that fun stuff. Joe and I, you know, we really believe we're having important conversations. Conversations, they're not just Catholics need to be having, but you know, just as a nation we need to be having, especially today, 'cause we're gonna be talking about divorce. And it seems like in America, in modern day America, divorce is just kind of like no big deal. And that's just not the case. And it affects everybody, you don't have to be Catholic to be, you know, suffering from the negative effects of divorce. So today we're pleased and honored to be joined by Dr. Daniel Miola. And we're gonna be discussing a new book, Dan, the book you co-authored with your wife, correct? - Yeah, that's correct. And it's called Life Giving Wounds, a Catholic Guide to Healing for Adult Children Divorce or Separation. - Awesome, thank you for that, Dan. And just a quick bio, Dr. Dan and Bethany Miola are the founders of Life Giving Wounds, a Catholic nonprofit, a postulate dedicated to the healing of adult children of divorce or separation. The Miola's, both graduates of the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family, live in Maryland with their two daughters. Dr. Tim Miola, welcome to the Frontline with Joe and Joe, brother. - Hey, great to be here. Love the name of the show too. Truly on the front lines. - That's it. - It's about on the front line. - Well, Dan, I mean, and we're gonna get into it in the course of the conversation. And, you know, it's true is that, you know, divorce, you know, obviously we talk about very important things. I mean, there's, there's, you know, life issues like abortion and things like that. But divorce kind of seems to get short shrift. And it is a horrible, horrible thing. And that's why you're here. And that's why you wrote the book, okay? So that we could talk about this very important issue. So with that, I'm gonna shut up, I'm gonna hand it over to Joe Restonello, and we'll get going. Dan, we always start with a prayer to our lady in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Amen. Remember, almost gracious Virgin Mary. Never was it known that anyone who sought your help or sought your intercession was left unaided. Spied by this confidence, we're flying to you, a virgin, a virgin's our mother to you. We come few, we stand sinful and sorrowful. Mother, the word, incarnite, despise, not a petitions, fit in your clement to hear and answer us. Amen. Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Amen. Well, Dan, as Joe said, divorce is a serious problem. In America. Right now, about, I think, 55% of all marriages end in divorce. And to be honest with you, a lot of Catholic marriages end in divorce, as in baptized Catholics get married in the church. Let's discuss that stat, because frankly, it's very troubling. Yeah, I mean, it is, and there's different stats. Divorce rates actually have been going down in the last decade, but that's not good news. It's because less people are being married. Just to throw out another stat, and I think it's directly related to the divorce epidemic that happened previous to this epidemic, which I would call the non-commitment epidemic. We have the lowest marriage rates ever in the history of United States of young adults, 18 to 35. We're at 30%. Only 30% of young adults believe even enough in the institution of marriage to get married, let alone, you know, their views of marriage widely differ from what we would probably say is a healthy view. And that comes from, I think, the divorce wave that preceded it, that, you know, showed to them that love doesn't last, and has left them with a lot of relational baggage and a lot of relational wounds. So, well, if this is what marriage is all about, I want nothing to do with it. Or if I do want marriage, I don't know how to handle it. I don't know, you know, I haven't given the skills from my parents. So these statistics should be huge alarm bells in, you know, Joe, the other Joe had said, this needs to be a central issue. This can't be just, you know, a secondary issue to pro-life issues and sexuality and those, you know, issues which are important 'cause they're all interweaved. Like if we're gonna tackle the problem, we need to tackle the wounds and the scourge of divorce as well. So, yeah, the statistics should be alarming. And even if you've seen other statistics that say it's dropping, it's not good news. - Dan, let me jump in, Joe. Let me on that to be honest with you because I think at the root of some of that is we don't know what love is. We don't know what love is. Love is sacrificial. You talk to people, we're all around the same age, you know, I've been to a million weddings. People say, oh, marriage is 50/50. No, it's not. 50/50 marriage is divorce. You get divorced. Marriage is 100%, 100%, each person. And you live for the other. You die for the other. If you go into it outside of that mindset, the likelihood that you're gonna get divorced is high. It's high. Love is self-sacrificial. The world doesn't look at it that way. And that's why, to be honest with you, marriage looked at outside of the lens of Christ makes no sense. If I was a worldly person, I had my life together. Meaning like I work hard, I'm a fairly disciplined guy. I have some money, but I'm worldly. I live under the realm of the secular. I'm not getting married. I'm gonna get married to some flake. No way, she's not taking half my money. No, sorry, I worked too hard. Not doing it. I'm too smart for that. I'm not gonna do it. I'm just gonna use you. And you're gonna use me. And I'm gonna have a companion. When I'm sick of you, I'll find another one. That's how worldly people think, who have their act together. I'm gonna commit to somebody that's not gonna fully sacrifice for me. Not doing that. That's why it doesn't work outside of the lens of God. I'm interested in your thoughts on that, because to me, that's how I see it. - No, yeah, bottom line. You gotta have God in your marriage and your relationships, or it doesn't make sense, because if God's not the center, it's just all about you two. And how are you gonna resolve a fight? I have my needs, she has her needs, rather than having a common good. What does God want? Not what Dan wants, not what my wife Bethany wants, what does God want? And that makes you inherently unselfish and self sacrificial. And I could go on and on about that. But what you said, that assumption that like, no way, I don't wanna get married 'cause she's gonna take half of money. I mean, that's largely because of the wounds, right? They don't believe it's gonna last. Like, it is interesting that that's the assumption, and that's one of many assumptions that I've heard about why not to get married. You know, that's the wound talking. To preconceive in advance that this thing is gonna fail, because people are selfish, is a wound talking. Where do they learn that people are selfish in not giving itself sacrificial? Probably they saw something in their family of origin growing up, right? And also, you know, to your earlier comment about needing to be all in, amen. Amen, brother, you gotta be all in. Why are people not all in? Because they're wounded. And what do you wanna do when you're wound? Protect. And look, you know, and that's men too. That's not just women. Men, if they're being honest, you know, and stating that like, I don't want her to take half of my money, that's the wound talking, man. That's you trying to protect yourself in an unhealthy way. Like, you know, like, you wanna be big and bold, and you wanna say that you're giving, but you're not. You're actually like little kids self-protecting because you got wounds that you never dealt with because you put it in the trunk, and you think, oh, I'm a tough guy by not dealing with it. - Yeah, and I mean, there's so much there to one pack. If you're just joining us here at the front line with Joe and Joe, Dr. Dan Miole is here. We're discussing his new book, The Opera Ignatius Press. Please buy it from the publisher. You probably can buy it in other places. We'll let Dan tell you where, but we love to support our Catholic publishers. As you know, life-giving wounds, a Catholic guide to healing for adult children of divorce or separation. Dan, let me get, let me just get a little bit political for a second, okay? Because Joe and I, in fairness, we do a lot of bashing of the left, and they deserve a lot of bashing. I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you. I think they're completely insane. However, having said that, in fairness, Joe and I are trying to be objective, okay? When you're talking about things like divorce, when you talk about things like contraception, okay? The right doesn't wanna hear that. The conservative right in America, claiming to be pro-life, by the way, but also willing to find an accommodation on abortion, when we all know there is no accommodation on abortion, okay? They don't, you bring up contraception, you bring up this conversation about divorce. They don't wanna hear it because that's part of American freedom. You see, they'll pay lip service to abortion, but I need to be free as an American. Even though, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a Christian, I believe in Jesus Christ, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm free to get divorced, or I'm free to contraception. Dan, I think that's a problem. I'd like to know whether you agree or no, you don't have to agree, but I love your comments on it. - Yeah, no, I mean, this shows how deeply entrenched this issue is and how, I mean, in a certain way, like, we've gotta get the culture back on this. And yeah, I agree, it's both a left and right issue. And a lot of our Protestant brothers and sisters too, but I mean Catholics too, don't, you know, don't give me a story. There's a lot of hypocrisy in the Catholic church, but at least the Catholic church still teaches, in most cases, this is a sin against the endo solubility of marriage. But again, a lot of Christian churches, evangelical churches that would agree on us on a lot of issues like pro-life issues, don't, they think that, you know, divorce is acceptable in a very broad range of things. And that's 'cause too, I mean, let's not forget, how the church teaches the marriage is a sacrament. That's unique amongst most Protestant denominations. I think there might be one or two that, you know, the Orthodox that still, you know, teach about the sacramentality in marriage. But that sacramentality is rooted in this belief that it's into solubility, that this marriage, if between two baptized Christians bring God into it, at the deepest level, it's unbreakable, even if a civil divorce does happen. Okay, that's a radical teaching that's uniquely Catholic, but needs to be reclaimed. That is the type of all-in that Joe was talking about that we need to recover. And that's one of the greatest graces Catholicism has, because it teaches it's a sacrament and not just has some religious dimension. - Let me blow out, Joe. - Go ahead, Joe, go, go. - Let me blow out what you said 'cause people don't understand why the church believes in, is against contraception. I think it's important 'cause it's easy to say, but then people don't know why. Because when you contraceptive, you don't give up yourself fully to the other. You're saying, I love you, but not that much. And that selfishness, 'cause I'm now using you for self-gratification and you're using me, that will bleed in other aspects of your marriage and ultimately erode it. That is why contraception is if you ask me a silver bullet, it hurts your marriage. That's one, number two, to be open to life is a vow that you make as a Catholic. You don't accept that as in you don't practice it. Your marriage is in sacramental. You're breaking a vow. You made that vow as a Catholic, which means you're not getting grace in your marriage 'cause you're breaking. The marriage is in sacramental. Also, when you do not contraceptive and you mention this then, you give all. When you do, you don't. And ultimately, to be honest with you, that's just selfish. Because when you have children materially speaking, you're not going to live the quote unquote American dream that most people, when they get married and vision them having. I used to teach pre-kana. First thing I would say, when I would talk to couples, what is the goal of your marriage? What's the goal? I know what the goal is. We're gonna get rich and we're gonna retire in a fancy hat. That's what most Americans, we're gonna have a great life, comfortable. And some do and good for you, but most sacrifice. And when you're having children, you're not going to have the car you want most times. You're not gonna have the house you want. You're not gonna go on vacations. The ones you want, anyway. You're not going to do those things and that's intended. Because a Catholic marriage is you died to self as Christ died for the church. It's intended. And that's what we don't buy into, including many in the church. And that's why our marriages fail. Because it's these little cracks of selfishness that bleed across the rest of the marriage. And as that happens, the marriage falls apart. Your thoughts. - Well, I think Joe, you were gonna say something? - No, no, no. Go right ahead, Dan. - Yeah, I mean, amen to that. I think just, I would just add the perspective that wounds drive a lot of this. Again, if we're gonna get healing, you know, selfishness, yes, it's a choice. It's a moral decision by wounds driving. I would just add to that. Like, you know, a lot of this, yeah, we have original sin. There's some kind of innate selfishness that needs to be healed. But, you know, a lot of it is learned. Or, you know, I would add too, just to have a little compassion. There's selfishness. Or again, what I was trying to see, what I see a lot of times with the wounded people, they're very cautious in their investment into a relationship, again, because of a lack of trust. Or there's fear, there's fear there driving. So what's interesting to me, and I always like to bring in these conversations, like, okay, what's driving this symptom of selfishness? Okay, what is driving it? Let's get real here. It's, you know, it's fear. It's a lack of trust. It's these wounds I've never seen men and women relate to one another in a healthy way, you know, growing up. Just to have some compassion on people, but to get at the root of what's driving selfishness, it is a moral decision, it is a virtue, but we got to get at the wounds underneath it too. - I agree with that, but I'm going to add this too. You mentioned looking at each other. The best marriage isn't necessarily looking at each other. It's looking in the same direction to God. You see, I'll be honest with you, Dan. I got married at 43. Part of the reason why I couldn't find anybody who viewed the world through the lens of the church, including in the church, people couldn't stand me in terms of I viewed the world through the church. And that's hard to find people that way, to be true, really. And when you look in the same direction, that's the goal, what's the goal? My goal is to get to heaven and her goal is to get me to heaven. We're looking in the same direction constantly. And also, I'll be honest with you, I don't believe in civil marriage, Dan. It doesn't work. You need grace. And if you take a vow, two people, this is why people don't have trust. And I agree with you, there are wounds 100%. A big part of that is this. A vow means till death, I'm married to you. No matter what, no matter what, whether we live together or not. And if I go with someone else, I'm committing a mortal sin, which means my soul is in jeopardy. That'll keep me on the straight and narrow if you take that serious, Dan. And it should. And that's the part why it doesn't work out. Life is how many chapters of your life? Life is so long, so many things happen. If you keep that in your head, not to mention the grace you get from the sacrament. And that's why it doesn't work in the modern age. It simply doesn't work. And if you're smart and you live in a secular fashion and you're wounded because the secular culture is a mess, I'm not getting married. Are you crazy? I'm not gonna do it. No way, no how am I gonna marry some fruit loop who basically doesn't take it. The marriage serious is selfish. I'm not doing it. - So just to add, yes, absolutely, you need to have that common good of God. It makes all the difference for your self-sacrifice for your marriage. And then just again, to heal. Like you can't heal from suffering without God together. And you can't persevere, I would say, because every marital couple goes through the cross. You're all gonna die. You're gonna have sickness, you're gonna have illness. You have wounds that you bring into the marriage that you gotta deal with. And you can't answer the question of suffering apart from God and you can't get through suffering apart from God. So just to add to that, absolutely. I'd be terrified of marriage without God. It's that central. - Oh my God. What are you doing? We need to proclaim that from the rooftops to people. It's a non-negotiable. - Well, that's why at the front line with Joe and Joe, Dan, that's why we talk about things that we, some people say or give lip service to, and they say, yeah, yeah, it's a shame. It's a shame, divorce is a shame. No, like you said, we gotta shout it from the rooftops. This is what's one of the same. Look, like you said earlier, Dan Miola. It's all intertwined, which I wanna get into in a second, but I wanna plug your book first. Dr. Dan Miola is joining us here at the front line with Joe and Joe. Please go out and buy his book, co-authored with his wife, Bethany. Life giving wounds, a Catholic guide to healing for adult children of divorce for separation. Buy it from Ignatius Press. I do wanna, you know what? I'm gonna save it for my, what I was gonna ask you for the next segment. I wanna stay on wounds. I wanna talk about kids, okay? So the children of divorce parents, and you alluded to it, but I want you to maybe open it up a little bit more. They're broken. And I remember growing up, all right? And the divorce is nothing now, but I'm 56 years old. Growing up, a lot of my friends, or several of my friends, their parents were divorced, okay? Now they were normal, just like we were. You know, everybody were all playing football and getting in trouble, you know, hanging on a street corner in Newark, New Jersey. But you knew that on some level, at least looking back, I knew on some level, that it hurt them, that their fathers weren't in the house, that, you know, the friends I had, they live with their moms, their fathers, or that we'd see their fathers at baseball practice or something like that. And that's not to say you can't grow up and be in a productive adult or anything, but we're talking about on a deeper level here. They're hurt, on the inside, they're hurt. And it goes back to the selfish sister, Joe was alluding to, is we have to emphasize sometimes to people like you said, shouting from the rooftop, you're hurting your kids, you're hurting your kids, even if you find that this is very, very difficult, you have kids, and don't do this to them. Is that being judgmental to me, or is it just something that we need to try to emphasize to people, look, you did this, you have children, you gotta work your way through it and you gotta ask God for help. - Yeah, I mean, the vast majority of cases, that's not being judgmental, that's the truth. I mean, the church has always said if there's abuse involved, right, as a last resort, you can have recourse to civil separation and civil divorce, although again, at the deepest level, you're still married, you're still called to sacrifice for your spouse, et cetera. But no, that's not being judgmental, that's the reality. We know God planned for these two parents to raise the kids in this loving union that lasts until death, okay? And when that's not there, when we don't follow God's plan, it hurts not just ourselves, but we believe relational beings, it hurts those around us, but in particular, the kids. The kids, yes, it does hurt the kids, very deeply, very deeply, and it doesn't matter if your kids says they're fine, doesn't matter if they go on and be productive and get PhDs, et cetera, at some fundamental level, losing the love of your parents together hurts and breaks you, okay? Even if you're a really good mom and dad who loves your kid individually after the fact, and I wanna praise them, thank God, that's better than a parent who abandons ship and is completely absent. But even if you love them as individuals after the fact, they've lost the love of their parents together, that witness of that communion together, that hurts, that breaks them, that affects, and many different levels. I've seen that in the research, I've seen that in my ministry and experience, it affects their identity, it affects their faith, it affects how they approach relationships. Again, whether or not they admit it consciously, it does, it absolutely does. - What I've heard in my experience, Dr. Dan Miello joining us here at the Frontline with Joe and Joe, what I've heard, and it really, it annoys me. And again, I spent 20 years of my life not really practicing the faith, so I don't point my fingers at other people, I get it, okay? But when you, I worked in New York City, I'm in Arizona now, I gotta add a dodge about two years ago, but I worked in New York City, I was a stockbroker years ago, I've been around all the tough guys, the Brooklyn, Staten Island type thing. The guy's getting divorced, I said to one of my friends one time, "Why are you getting divorced? "What are you talking about? "I know you, I know your wife, you're getting divorced." It doesn't matter, I still love my kids. I mean, in my mind, again, like, and, you know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna come across as being harsh, but if you loved your kids, you would try to work this out. You wouldn't, you wouldn't say, "Well, I'm still gonna take care of my kids." It's not, yeah, it's not, it's not a substitute to say, "Well, I'm still gonna provide for my kids." Well, the law is gonna make sure you still provide for your kids, but we're talking about something that's on a much deeper level, we're talking about the good of your soul and your family. Let me ask you this, Dan. So I kind of just say something. Loving your spouses, loving your kids. You can't separate the two. God put them together for a reason. I mean, again, this is another example of separating marriage from parenting. We were talking about contraception earlier. One of the sad legacies is not just separating sex from the possibility of children, but the concept of marriage from parenting, and this is seen in this thinking. Oh, I can love my kids, you know, separate from loving my wife. Well, no, they go together. Loving your wife is one of the greatest gifts you can give to the kid. Matter of fact, it has priority in marriage, right? It goes, God, your spouse, and your kids. Why? Because it's the greatest gift. First, you can give to your kids is your faith. Second, together, your faith together. Second is having a strong marriage, as we know. And then yeah, then it's loving your kids as well. They go together. I don't get this dichotomy and it really ticks me off 'cause I hear this a lot of times. Oh, I can love my kids, but not my wife. Like-- Yeah, I heard you get that. I don't see that. I don't get that. I mean, I will say this just from on a personal note. I'm actually, I'm happy about it. I don't wanna use the wrong word here. But there's a certain lesson that my son learns, okay, when he sees that my wife and I have had a bad argument. And I think that there is a lesson there because, okay, he doesn't, I don't like arguing with my wife, she doesn't like arguing with me. And I know he doesn't like to see us argue, but he also sees us work our way through it. There is a lesson there and that's why I don't mind sometimes if I am arguing with my wife or we have a severe disagreement because I want him to see us working through it because there's a, even though I'm not, let's say, overtly trying to teach him something by arguing with my wife, but nonetheless, it happens, we're human beings, it happens, we all get selfish sometimes, we get in the arguments, but I'm glad that he sees that because that's also bearing witness to the faith because he knows that when we reconcile after an argument, it's because of the fact that we have grace in our marriage, all right, before the end of the, before the break comes down, I got about a minute or two, I'd like to throw that over to you. - Yeah, kids need to see how to repair a relationship. And this is actually one of the leading causes of why, you know, so many adult showing divorce, fear, marriage and relationships, they don't know how conflict works and they don't know how to repair the relationship once conflict happens. And it's crucial, and what's the beauty about repairing a relationship in a godly way is the relationship comes out stronger, kind of like that scab wound, right? The skin is actually stronger, even though you never wanna have that cut to begin with, and you should intentionally cut yourself, right? But it happens, right, that we do end up getting cut. So they need to see that repair, that's a crucial, crucial witness to your children. And that, I mean, that's the reality of the cross too, you talked about the cross and the marriage. You know, marriage is for our sanctification. You know, another way of explaining the self-sacrifice is it's to sanctify us, which means there's crosses, where we're gonna hurt one another, that we gotta work through and make amends in a separate responsibility for those crosses to be better people, that's repairing. That is the heroic moment, one of the heroic moments in marriage that we need to recover, that repair is possible, but it takes work. - Absolutely, Dr. Damiel is joining us here at the Frontline with Joe and Joe. He co-wrote a book with his wife, Bethany. The title is Life Giving Wounds, a Catholic Guide to Healing for Adult Children of Divorce or Separation. So Dan, before we take a break, we got about a minute. Where can people learn more about what you do in your apostolate and all that fun stuff? - Yeah, you can find out about us at lifegivingwounds.org. And there you can see we have chapters across the country, including in New York, in Canada, in Connecticut, et cetera. And we do retreats, we do support groups, we do online ministry, we have a detailed blog and a lot of other resources to help you. So that's the best place, lifegivingwounds.org to find out about our ministry and including our new book, which you can order off our website as well. - So you can order it from the website. I'm sir and Dan, you can buy our audience, can buy it from Ignatius Press also, correct? Anyplace else that we wouldn't necessarily prefer them by it, but yeah, you can buy it from Amazon, Barnes and Noble. There's actually, if you got a local Christian bookstore, I'd recommend you patronizing them. They usually carry the latest Ignatius Press title, so yeah. Get it, get it from one little guys if possible, your local Christian bookstore. - That's right. So Father Fessio comes on the show a number of times. Every time I tell people to buy the book from the publisher, he yells at me and he says, tell them to go to their local, their parish bookstore and tell them to buy it and put it on the show. - Sorry Father, I apologize for that. So yes, I forgot about the bookstores, go to the bookstores and if they don't have the book, ask them to order a couple copies and put it on the show. People will buy it. So Dr. Dami, this is a great conversation. We're so happy that you're here. Stick around everybody, we have another great segment. Don't go anywhere. - Catholic Radio Works, and now we have it here in Connecticut and New York. It's been seen around the country that there's no better tool for evangelization where there's Catholic Radio, the folks who listen deep in their faith, families are strengthened, parishes and communities flourish. So, let people know you're listening to Veritas, tell your friends to tune in and let's make an impact here for Jesus and his church. This is Steve Lee for Veritas Catholic Network. - Welcome back everyone to the Frontline with Joe and Joe. Joe Pacillo, Joe Risenllo, we're way in the breach on the Veritas Catholic Radio Network, 1350 on your AM dial, 103.9 on your FM dial, spreading the truth of the Catholic faith to the New York City Metropolitan area. Joining us today is Dr. Dan Miola. We're discussing his new book that he co-wrote with his wife, Life Giving Wounds, a Catholic Guide to Healing for Adult Children of Divorce or Separation. So, you could buy that at Ignatius Press, you could buy that on the website, which is LifeGivingWounds.com, Dan. - Dot org, but com will redirect, so. - Okay, and also go to your local parish and tell them to buy a couple of copies and put it on the shelf. - Joe Risenllo. - We talked about love, what love is, it's self-sacrificial. Now, let's talk about marriage. We talked a little bit about that. We're gonna talk more about it. Marriage is a sacrament. Now, what do sacraments do? It's an instrument, I call it a tool that elevates our human nature. It opens us up to grace. God made marriage a sacrament because marriage, to have a good one, is hard, and God gives you the grace to have a good marriage. Outside of that grace, the likelihood that you are, now, I can't speak for everyone, but we are human, is difficult, and I actually think it's impossible, but that's just my opinion. We need grace, statistics, back that up. 50% of marriages end in divorce. When a couple goes to church together, just simply goes to church that number gets cut in half. And when couples practice natural family planning, which means they don't contraceptive, it goes down to 3%. Why? Because we're opening ourselves up to grace. And why am I talking about this? We're all Catholic here. I've been involved in pre-kana. I don't think we do a good enough job in catechizing our couples who are getting married. One day isn't gonna do it. You're dealing with, first of all, people, the last 60 years in America, the catechists and people, as far as what they know the faith to be, is horrible. If you talk to the average Catholic, they can't articulate their faith. They don't know about their faith. Only 30% of the Catholics in America believe that Jesus is in the Eucharist. That's a layup. They're gonna tell you why contraception is wrong, what marriage is, what my obligation is. They don't have a clue. They come from the frat house. They have a girlfriend, they live with her, and they get married at 26. And when they're 36, they look at their spouse and they're like, "Who the hell are you?" I don't even know who you are. Why did I do this? And then we're shocked. We're shocked. All the smart people who went to the Gregorian are shocked. I'm a dummy, and I know that. And this is what I'm talking about. We're not catacizing our people correctly, and then we're shocked. So ultimately, that is an underlying problem. We don't know what marriage is. Marriage, you said it on the other side of the break. It's self-sanctifying. It's a vocation. It's a vocation. It leads me to God by dying to myself. And I have to swallow my wants many times to do that. Talk about that then. Lots of unpacked, but this is reality. We're living in America. And frankly, we don't get it. - Yeah, I mean, I always wanna say amen after you. - I'm nuts. (laughing) - You didn't know what you were in for when you came on the show, did you? - I get it. - Oh, that's good. No, I mean, you speak the truth, brother. Like, yeah, I mean, again, just to add to that, so not only do we have, you know, poor catacases, we have a lack of access to like good marriages. Like holy marriages, like I get a little frustrated when people do have good holy marriages. They just are kind of focused on just their family against the world. And it's like, no, go out and like be in the world, right? Like, get out. Get out of your, you know, nice domestic church and invite over some broken messy people. And catacase, not catacase, but like, evangelize them, right? You know, it's, yeah, I mean, catacase. I always say like, well, we gotta evangelize our brothers and sisters in the college church and like, oh no, you mean catacase. I'm like, no, they don't have a clue. Like, you know, the conversion needs to take hold. But the other thing is, you know, we talk about this in our book as well. They're coming with a very damaged vision of marriage. So it's not just simply a place of ignorance. They don't know the church's teaching, but they actually have a very damaged vision of marriage. And it's not just given by the ideologues that say, you know, marriage is whatever we want it to be and marriage is, you know, whatever. But from their homes, okay. They're given a damaged vision of marriage that doesn't last forever. That conflict ends in divorce. Divorce is acceptable. You know, they're given this, you know, it causes a skepticism too. I would say like a cynicism that any good thing can last, that love can last. You know, this fear of rejection and abandonment. So I'm gonna leave you first because I don't wanna deal with that rejection abandonment. So it takes all these different forms, this damage or this is the opposite too. Like, oh, this person is gonna solve all my problems. Okay, but, you know, I saw the lack of a good marriage in my upbringing. And so that must mean this person in this marriage is gonna solve all my problems. So I got news for you. No, Jesus Christ will. And the marriage will only solve your problems as far as Jesus Christ is in it. But your spouse is not your savior. You know, that's a big mistake to make. So, you know, you have these different damage views of marriage as well. So it's just out of your conversation. There's ignorance, there's also that damage view of marriage that needs to be healed, needs to be purified by recovering the vision of marriage in the gospels. And that's why that's the first thing we start with when we talk about healing our vision of love. Okay, we can get into the wounds, but first you gotta purify your vision of marriage. That's gonna be what's gonna most heal your wounds first and foremost. And let's just assume everybody has damaged vision of marriage, okay? - Yeah. - Not just ignorant about, but has damaged vision. And why is that the case? Okay, let's talk about it. But let's recover the gospels view of marriage and family. That's been a guide post for my own marriage and family, guide post for my healing. I know it wouldn't be who I am today without the full gospel truth of marriage and family is proclaimed by the Catholic church. And I will sing it from the rooftops. That is central to your healing. If you're out there listening, you're like, I'm wounded, I don't know. I've struggled to maintain relationships. I've struggled to enter into relationships. I've struggled with my marriage, whatever. First and foremost, reclaim the vision that Joe's talking about from the gospels. - Dr. Damiel is joining us here. Please go out and buy his book, Life Giving Wounds a Catholic Guide to Healing for Adult Children of Divorce and Separation. Yeah, let me try to set this up. Because our culture feeds us so much nonsense, okay? That's why we don't know what words like love mean and things like that because we're taught it what it means by Hollywood, okay? You're talking about healing. Like I said, let me try to set this up logically 'cause I have a million thoughts running through my head. The most profound experience I go through is going to confession. Why? Because we know as Catholics, it's not psychological. On a deeply spiritual level in my soul, I am moved because I know I have received forgiveness for things that I rightly, you know, you know, the things that I did wrong and I confess my sins to the Lord. And I experienced that. We all do when we go to confession, but it comes with saying you're sorry, okay? Start stare, say I'm sorry. Now let me try to tie this in. The movie Love Story that came out when we were all kids, love is never having to say you're sorry. That was the big line from the movie, okay? Remember Ali? - Really? I've never seen this movie. - I only know it but I would never waste my time watching Love Story. It came out when I was five years old but having said that, but that was the line. That was the big line from the movie. Ali McGrawie looks at Ryan O'Neill and says, Love is never having to say you're sorry. - Hey! - Wrong, get out of here, you're off the show because you got the, you gave the wrong response. No, love, saying you're sorry and asking for forgiveness is necessary in a marriage. Just like it's necessary for our salvation. It's necessary in a marriage. And we're so, we don't say we're sorry. We don't seek forgiveness sometimes. We're pigheaded. How important in your ministry is to try to teach people you need to learn to humble yourself and you probably need to go and apologize and seek forgiveness for what you did. I think you know where I'm going, Dr. Dan Miole, I'm gonna throw it over to you. - Yeah. Oh man, we can have a whole podcast or a whole radio interview on this topic. Forgiveness is essential. We lay out in our book that look, some of these areas of healing might not apply to you. We kind of look at seven different areas. But the two that absolutely apply to you is you need to grieve it. You need to knowledge that there's a wound, but then you need to have forgiveness. Absolutely. Forgiveness, that's the reason God became man. It's central to Christianity. It's central to healing, but it's central to marriage. Another thing I like to say is, I love that Christ's strongest teaching on marriage and family, Matthew 19, where he says, look, marriages forever, you know, marriages until death do us part against those who were saying, well, what about divorce? It's like in the beginning, it wasn't so. What God has put together, let no man separate. Well, what precedes that, which is so beautiful, is Matthew 18, the parable with the unforgiving servant where Christ tells, you know, how many, Peter's like, how many times should we forgive? Three times, seven times, you know, he's like, oh yeah, I'm good if I forgive my brother, seven times. And Christ's like, no, it's 77, no, sorry, seven, 70 times, seven times, I think, or 70 times, whatever. It's a symbolic number for as many as necessary to forgive. And I think he puts those two verses, Matthew 18, 19 together, look, and saying, like, look, it's essential to this love that I'm proclaiming in marriage that you be too really good for givers and being merciful. Right? You know, part of the reason we say we love each other in good times and bad times. Part of that bad time is because of our own stupid stubbornness and pigheadedness and dumbness and marriage where we need to be merciful. We need to be merciful to one another. It's crucial to be too good for givers in marriage. And to say I'm sorry, but I would just add to that. And then to repair the relationship by making amendment of behavior. You know, when we go to confession, we promise to go and send no more. There's a commitment there to make amendment of the sinful behavior and that takes time, that takes gradualness, that takes going to confession several more times, you know, many times in the case of habitual sin or habitual unhealthy behaviors, whatever. So yes, it's about saying I'm sorry, it's about forgiving the others. And it's about making that amendment of behavior which is repairing the relationship. 'Cause again, I've seen too many examples of forgiveness that have gone poorly because you have somebody who says I'm sorry, but then doesn't fall through with taking responsibility for his actions and trying to change it. So that's where like amendment is key. That's part of the ritual of the sacrament of confession. And there's so much to unpack there too because, you know, oh man. Like to offer forgiveness to others, I would also say that our follow line is crucial for forgiveness to trespass is we forgive those to trespass against us. To forgive others, first we have to receive forgiveness ourselves too. There's a priority there, there's a humility there. When we talk about forgiveness, forgiveness is not easy. It's very hard to forgive another who's hurt us, who hurt us very badly and deeply. And they were the people that should have loved us. But we can only do that if we receive first forgiveness for ourselves and allow God's forgiveness to pass through us. So there's a priority, first of us receiving forgiveness from the Lord and through that, for giving others is that our father suggests. So there's a lot I can unpack, but I'll leave it there for a minute. - Yeah, no, that's great, Dan. And thank you for the comments. I will say this, you know, we're all works in progress. We're all moving along. Jesus is healing our wounds. Most of the times our wounds will be healed if we, if we gave, if we really wanted them to be, unfortunately we're stubborn. But nonetheless, we keep going back to confession. There is one thing I know about myself. Is that I'm pretty much willing to forgive anybody, anything, just in life in general, because although I get angry and we can all get, that's a natural response, I know it's because I've received forgiveness for some horrible things that I've done in my life. So how could you, it's like you said, about the serve the ungrateful servant? Yeah, the Lord forgives me a very big debt and I won't forgive a little small debt over here. And I wanna throw that person in jail, you know, to paraphrase scripture. So I will say that. I'm glad we, I glad we spoke about that Dan. Joe Restonello, where do you wanna go? In marriage, there are roles. A man has a role, a woman has a role. One of the roles of the man that is highly overlooked is you are the priest of your house. When men practice the faith, the likelihood that the children will practice the faith is very high, when the men don't, they don't. When a man leaves the relationship, because God is a father, you break trust with your children, the likelihood that they're going to see God as a loving father is very small. It's very important and why do I say that? We live in a competitive world. We all know people who wanna do well and do well. The most important thing you can do for your kids is give them a foundation of faith, because if they do have that, everything they see through the world will be through that lens, how they manage their money, the type of job they have, the spouse that they have, how they lead their life. The most important thing, and it's not prioritized, particularly among men. It's not important, that's the wife's job. No, that's your job. That's your job. Talk about that, Dan. - Yeah, amen, sorry, I can't believe that. - No, I love it, Dan. - Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, you know, it pisses me off to hear that men say that religion's a woman's thing. You know, that's ridiculous. What arrogance and pride? Like just, ah, that false masculine, I don't like to use the word toxic masculinity, 'cause the feminists use that. But if there's a toxic masculinity, it's one that rejects God, right? And the role that the man has to play in sharing the faith with his family, absolutely. And you brought up the point about the father leaves that the children's faith is damaged. That's true of mother too, I would just say that too. But yeah, absolutely. There's a correlation there because marriage against, to image Christ's love for the church. That's the high noble calling. You talked about that earlier in the understanding of the sacrament. Well, when that doesn't happen, you give an anti-image of Christ in the church. And then yes, that's gonna affect their ability to even call God father. I've had people on our retreat say like, I can't even call God father because I'm so, you know, that word father is so triggering because of the abandonment, rejection, the horrible things my father did. Now, we work with him and say like, look, your father was an image, right? Like the reality still remains. God, the father is the archetype, where the image, right? So the mirror is broken, but the reality still remains. Okay, your father broke the mirror, the image, but the reality remains. But it's crucial, it's crucial to recover faith. And our role is men, and to allow that faith as men to penetrate all areas of our life, right? I can't just be a Sunday thing. It can't be just in my family, but not in my work. You can't draw these lines to try to like, encapsulate the faith. And it can't be a faith that doesn't allow you the faith to go into your wounds. Again, men, hey, talking about being wounded. And it's like the phantom limb, right? We walk around life, not realizing we're missing a limb, but it's affecting all of our stuff and relationships. So we got to allow the faith to heal us. We've got to be bold to allow the faith to enter into all areas of our life, not just this area or that area, and to see it as the greatest gift of your marriage. Again, I talked about priorities in marriage. It's got to go God your marriage and your kids. Like God's got to be at the forefront of it. That's how we remain. There's a part of our hearts that is not satisfied with anything else but God. And so if you're longing and you're unsatisfied and you're feeling empty, that's a clearing and call that you're missing God and you need to embrace God in a deeper way. - One thing I would say about, you mentioned masculinity, toxic masculinity, that gets thrown around a lot. What we have to do, you mentioned Dan in the last segment about shouting from the rooftops, is to tell men to stop listening to some of these podcasters who have like quarter of a million dollar cars and they measure their masculinity by how many women they sleep with. The authentically masculine is the man who knows his place in relation to God. That is the man who is a full man, a true man because he recognizes that he's an ink spot without God, okay? And then you could do those things that authentic men are supposed to do. Again, not because we walked on water 'cause we don't, we're all sinners. But damn it, we're trying. We recognize that there's something lacking in us and we want to be better men. You could only do that with God. I just wanted to make that comment. I wanna segue to this question 'cause I think it's an important one. In many of the conversations Dan that Joe and I have at the front line with Joe and Joe, and that's the role of suffering in life. Now, if there's one thing in the modern world, one of the buzzwords that people don't wanna hear about, it's suffering, okay? Don't talk about suffering, but suffering's essential as far as we're concerned. Oh, I'll put it like this. Knowing how to deal with suffering is essential to leading a successful life. And dare I say, go to heaven. Talk about the suffering that occurs after the divorce amongst the spouses, the children, and how best to deal with that. - Oh, yeah, huge topic, right? - I know it's a big topic, Dan. I apologize, but you know. - No, it's good. I'm glad you brought this up. I mean, again, in our book, we say the core of healing is redemptive suffering. And I would go so far as to say, the joy in marriage, the joy in any circumstance is gonna come from redemptive suffering properly understood, which again is a great grace of Christianity, but especially of Catholicism, preaching redemptive suffering. What is it? There's a lot, but it starts with inviting Christ into the pain. You don't do it yourself. You don't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, okay? That's not how you're gonna get through suffering well. It starts by inviting Christ in the pain. Yes, you have to cooperate. Yes, you have a role to play, taking responsibility for the suffering that you cause, and we can always control our response. We're not victims, right? We reject the victim mentality, which says I'm powerless to change these things for the best, for better. We reject that, we reject this hypersensitivity to lack, knowing that the cross, there's nobody that comes out unscathed in this world. There's nobody who doesn't go through salvation through the cross, right? So we reject that, but we do at the same time, we reject that victim mentality, but we do acknowledge, yes, there's wounds, yes, there's suffering. We have to invite Christ into this. We have to unite our sufferings to Christ, and then we have to transform those wounds for the good. That's it, we either transmit, one of the famous things from Sister Miriam James, is we either transmit or transform our wounds, okay? Redempt the sufferings all about transforming the wounds. And now you have a problem. Sometimes people present redempt the suffering as just grinning and bearing, and that's a part of it. Perseverance is huge, but look, the Lord wants to transform those wounds towards a greater good than the original evil inflicted. It's not a one-for-one deal. Okay, I'm just gonna bring a little bit of good out of the bad that happened. No, he wants to draw a greater good, that's, you know, and so if you understand redempt the suffering in terms of transforming the wounds, transforming the suffering for a greater good for your marriage, for your kids, for your world, man, there's a lot of work and a lot of creativity and a lot of different ways to do that that I'd love to talk to you about, and that's the heart of our ministry, but that's what I would say about redempt the suffering that we've got to transform the wounds. We've got to, we've got to move from the place of emptiness, grief, that's valid. I acknowledge that, that's the beginning of healing, but to a point of also working on transforming those wounds. At least of those things that are in our control, and this is the other point, is there's some aspects of suffering that's out of our control. The illness, you know, our parents continuing to be dysfunctional, we can't control that, we can't control whether or not our parents get back together, we can't control how they react to us on holidays, although we can advocate for that, we can encourage them to be better, we can tell them when they hurt us, et cetera, but we can't control them, right? But what we do control is our response with the Lord, and it's that response to wounds, that response to suffering, walking with Jesus Christ, that's the key to holiness, that's the key to redempt the suffering, that's the key to transforming our wounds, and so we need to be thinking about that, how do I respond with greater faith, hope, and love to these wounds and suffering? - Absolutely, I'm gonna hand it over to Joe Dan, 'cause we only have a couple minutes left, I will say this though, just for my own personal experience, and I can only look back, I didn't know it while it was going on, obvious, I know that I'm on a journey, I know that God has me on that journey, I believe in providence, okay? But I remember suffering 15, 18 years ago, all self-imposed, by the way. And if I didn't choose, now I didn't know it was transformation, all I knew was I needed help. And believe me when I tell you, I say to anybody, okay, my life is a perfect example of when you reach out to Christ, he's gonna help you. He says that, and he's not a liar, and it's the truth. So thank you for talking about suffering. Joe, unfortunately we only have about three minutes, so let's get one final question in for Dan. - We talked about sex, we talked about marriage, we talked about the family. Can America turn the corner? I say yes, start with one Hail Mary, one Hail Mary. Prayer and marriage is huge. I'm a big proponent in praying the rosary. My wife and I have been married 10 years, we pray the rosary every night, we've never missed a night. Start out small, one Hail Mary together. If you're not Catholic, go to adoration. You can go to adoration, sit in front of the blessed sacrament. You don't even have to be a believer to do it. Go, you and your spouse together, just sit there. Start small, prayer is fundamental to marriage 'cause it's a transforming tool which emits grace. Your thoughts, Dan. - Yeah, amen, prayer and a consistent prayer life, but just beginning somewhere is key, is key to happiness, key to holiness, key to healing. So I appreciate ending the segment on prayer. And I would just say that, man, if I could go back and do things again to speed up my healing, it'd be developing a consistent prayer life. That's taken a very long time to get to. I still struggle with it, there's daily battles, et cetera. But again, pray. And you know what, there's a lot of different ways to pray. Pray the rosary, that's key, that's a big part of my spirituality as well. But look, you can talk to go on about your message. You can invite him into the pain. You can, you know, whatever, read a spiritual book and then say, okay, how does this relate to me, Lord? Jesus speak to me, read the scriptures. Say, what is Jesus saying to me? You know, imagine Jesus. I mean, he's there with you in the Eucharist. What are you saying to me? How do you look upon me? And that's the other thing too, is like, I think we get caught up in our own thoughts and ideas and at the corner of prayer is to get outside of ourselves. What do you say, Lord? What do you say to me? Speak. I'm now listening. Okay, so get out of yourselves by praying and that's a great first step for healing, for the holiness and happiness you desire. And ask others, ask your brothers who are further along in their spiritual journeys, how do I pray? Don't be afraid to ask the simple questions. I had to do that a long time ago. I didn't know how to pray. I had no teaching in prayer. What am I gonna do? I just sit there and look at Jesus. Well, okay, that can actually be a prayer, but can we do something more? Absolutely. So let's turn our gaze to Jesus who has all the answers. We don't, we don't have all the answers to this, but he does. And sometimes it's just knowing one step at a time and he gives that to us through the gift and grace of prayer that can transform our lives. So amen. That's a great place to end it. Dan Miole, thank you so much for joining us here at the Frontline with Joe and Joe. Everybody go out and buy his book. You could buy it from lifegiving wounds.org. You could buy it from Ignatius Press. Go to your local bookstore, Catholic bookstore. If they don't have it, tell them to order it. And yeah, if you gotta buy it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. But we wanna support our Catholic publishers. Life Giving Wounds, a Catholic Guide to Healing for Adult Children of Divorce or Separation. Dan Miole, you know you are welcome back at the Frontline with Joe and Joe anytime our brother. - I'd love that. I'd love to be back here. Thank you for the good conversation. - Absolutely, thank you so much. And thank you out there for joining us at the Veritas Catholic Radio Network. 1350 on your AM Dial 103.9 on your FM Dial. Spreading the truth of the Catholic faith to the New York City metropolitan area. Download the app, share it with your friends. And wherever you see Joe and I on social media, like, subscribe, share, do all that fun stuff so that important conversations like this one can get out to a wider audience. We'd really appreciate that. And remember, until the next time that our conversation is your conversation and that conversation is going on everywhere. We'll talk to you soon. (dramatic music)
