Test Match Special

In at the deep end - the psychology of test cricket

Simon Mann is alongside Alastair Cook, Michael Vaughan, Phil Tufnell & Russel Arnold to discuss the pressures of test cricket.

From trying to settle in as a debutant to controlling the anxiety of a batter, they tell all as to what was needed to face the challenges at the highest level and where they found their strengths in tough moments. Opening up about issues facing Glenn McGrath, keeping calm when rain delays play, and being “allergic to fielding practice”.

Duration:: 1h 14m
Broadcast on:: 12 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. We sent the staff to some of the Josh Hull would play in the last test match, and some I think quite a lot of people would be surprised at that, not least. Josh Hull himself. So, what we've done is we've assembled a panel of experts, former players who've played so much to test cricket to talk about their debutism and the experience of being a debutant as well, and what worked, what doesn't work. And they all had a quite unusual and significant debut. So, as to cook here, we've got Michael Vaughn and Russell Arnold as well. You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So, let's remind ourselves of your various debuts. Alistair, reflect on your debut, tell us what happened, remind us what happened. Well, it was 2006. It was in Nagport in India, first-game series. It was actually just flown in from Antigua. So, Antigua to Nagport. What were you doing in Antigua? We're playing for the Lions for West Indies. I guess West Indies A, England Lions, England, A, whatever it was called then. And actually at lunchtime, day one, I think we're probably 60 for three. I say strangled out by the legs side, actually bounced out by Tina Best. That was back in the day when you could actually just make up how you out, because there was no cameras actually. Now, there are cameras, so I better be truthful. And then, yeah, so me and Jimmy left that game a lunchtime. Peter Moore's coach and said you're flying to India, then flew to India 48 hours, probably door to door. Why were you flying in the middle of a tour, injuries? Yeah, so, I think, yeah, skipper. Yeah, Vorni's knee was saw in Pakistan. So, I actually got called up in 2005, went there, but didn't play. Then your knee went, didn't it? But your knee was saw in Pakistan, but you got through that. Then you got to India and actually yours and Simon Jones' knee went at the same time. That's when me and Jimmy got called up. Then when I landed in at Heathrow, Gatwick, wherever it was from, Antigua. That was good old C-fax, paid 3-4-1, headline, trespassing, flying home. So, kind of, do a few maths there. There's no other spare batsman apart from, kind of, Matt Pryor. It was a spare batsman, yeah. So, I think Ian Bell had also been, there was another one who had been in for Vorni, and then spare batsman said, yeah, so I literally landed in Nagpur. I think, I'm going to say 36 hours because it's better for the story, but it might have been more hours, I don't know. And then, Duncan Fletcher said, look, you're going to open the bank 36 hours later. Were you surprised when he landed you were going to play? Do you think I'm just going to go to cover, really? Well, I was definitely going to cover exactly as I did in Pakistan. I flew out because of Avorni's knee, and then Strauss is going home for the birth of his first child, but Avorni's knee survived. So, I thought I was covered. Obviously, when I landed in Heathrow and Trezels coming home, then I thought it was a really good chance that they might play me because there's no other openers to there. And I thought, well, again, it was just obviously a selection. I don't know if Skipper was still there, but a selection call saying, well, they either have Matt Prize been with us all squad or play out of his position or pick a proper opener. And what happened? Just remind us all. I got a 60 in the first innings and got 100 in a second. It wasn't a great 100 by any stretch of imagination, but it was a nice way to make my debut before, if you go into details, because let's be honest, someone who, back in the day, no English player, was meant to be able to play Spin, Harvard, Jan, and had come to obviously decent players of different, decent bowlers. And also, you fly halfway around the world, jet lag and all that. It's a free shot because none of you could always go like this. I could barely, could barely stay awake, but obviously you don't think that as a person, but as a player, you got the opportunity to go out and do it. But for me, it was just, it was a bit of a free shot. Did you feel ready? The interesting thing about slick, about making your debut. I was lying on a beach in Antigua, and Dave Parsons. Dave Parsons was, I don't know, it was a spin ball, in coach or whatever, his obviously part of the set. I was like, "When do you want to make your debut?" And I said, "I just don't know. I just want to play one thing." I looked at that line up of just Gothic, Vorn, Bell, Collingwood, Peterson, Flintov, all like late 20s, early 30s, just won the ashes. There's no reason why they're going to stop for four or five years. So in my eyes, I just wanted to play once. And that was honestly about four days before I was playing for England. So I never thought about being ready or think I just wanted an opportunity to play and say for once I was in England test cricket. Michael, your debut, that was in South Africa? Yeah, in Joe Berg, the Wanderers, 99. I read Duncan Fletcher's book a few years after. And I think he's in his book where he said that England were taking 16 players on the Tour de South Africa. It was around, you know, we'd become the worst team in the world in 1999. We never were, but that's what the headlines were. You know, RIP, English cricket, just lost to New Zealand. NASA had come in, Duncan Fletcher had come in. And I got a little bit lucky because I think the media and people say, "We need change." You know, the whole of English test match team just needs a rip up. And there was opportunities for Darren Maddie went on the Tour. Chris Adams went on the Tour. Gavin Hamilton went on the Tour. And it wasn't until a few years later that I read that 16 were meant to go, but Duncan Fletcher demanded 17 because he wanted me to go. And he had to say that the selectors, "I'm taking Michael Vaughn." And they said, "Well, he's just average 27 in a county season." And he said, "Yeah, but I've seen him against Glamorgan." And I saw him against a decent Glamorgan attack. Wacko was involved, and I think he can play. So he gambled, I didn't know that at the time. I mean, if I'd have gone to South Africa with those kind of thoughts, I'm last pick, not too sure if I'd have got an opportunity. And then in the first game was at the Diamond dealer Oppenheimer. We played a South African select 11. You know, it was a one-day time game, I think it was. And I wasn't in the team. And in the warm-ups playing football, Alan Malali got injured. So Duncan Fletcher, rather than go bowler for bowler, he went and won his pint, and he's back in at 7. And we can kind of mix around with the bowling unit. And I could think, "That's good." But wait a minute, we're going left arm quick for like a dodgy-off spin. That's what, top-order, and we're going to bat him at 7. And fortunately for me, England lost five quick-wickets. And I went out there, and they had quite a good attack, and I was back with that. Alan had opened the bat and he'd survived, put on a few runs with that. I think he's gone back into Nasser. I'm led to believe, and he's the one. Because it was penciling, I think, for Darren Maddie to bat out for in the test match team. And then the two four-day games leading into the first test. Nasser's going to bat out four. And then after the, I think I scored runs in the first one, and he said, "Look, you're going to play in the test match. We're going to play you at number four." So I knew probably a week or so before that test match debut. But the question of, "Are you ready?" I didn't feel ready. But when are you ready? But the one thing that stuck me straight away in test match cricket, once you've taken guard and you're facing your first ball, it's the same ball. It's the same pace, really. I mean, it might be a little bit more skillful. You see more intimidation with the field cameras, obviously, and the media are pretty much everywhere. And you see big names. You see big names all over South Africa, and Donald Sean Pollock. Hansie Cronig was captain. Callis Herschel gives Gary Calves, looking around at Lance Klusner. You know, some big, big names. And it was almost, I also like, I can cope with that. You know, the actual ball within a few balls. They're facing Donald and Pollock, and they're bowling nicely. But it was the first few balls I faced, I thought, oh, it isn't that much difference. This is actually quite normal. It's just a game of cricket. But it's just everything that surrounds, and also the build-up, and in the 90s, I think there was, you know, there's a lot of talk about, you know, the step-up, massive step-up from carrot cricket to test match cricket. And I think what they've done brilliantly in the last few years is almost, yes, it is a step-up, and the challenge is harder. But I think that culture that England have created around, and I think it's been there for a long time, you know, the last 20-odd year. I think England have been very, very, very, if you look at a lot of debuts, you know, compared to debuts back in the 80s, 90s to the 21st century, I'm guessing, and I'm sure the stats man will tell us, I, in the back of my mind, envisaged that, in the last 20 years, England's debutants have done pretty well. I think it's the culture that's been created, and the language that is now used for debutants is just quite on play. Enjoy, it's still the same game. Well, before that, I think there was a little bit of intimidation of, oh, it's a massive step-up, we'll get ready, it's a bit quicker, and it is in a way, but it isn't in another way. What was the score when he went in? Well, I, for the fact, I always remember NASA and look, just have a look at the senior pros, just, you know, just, you know, ah, you know, butch was there, stew was there, myself, just watch the way that we prepare. Well, I was inside the first few balls, we were two for two, and I was at the non-strike, and then before I faced the ball, I think Steward got out, I think butch had got out, and Chris Adams walked in at number six, and he said, "Oh, what's he doing?" I said, "I haven't faced the ball yet." Two for four. So, in a funny way, and Cookie will talk about, you know, flying all the way around the world and all the pressures off, and you sneak under the radar, at two for four, it's probably the best time to bat as a young bat, because you cannot do any worse. You've got all the four seniors sat in the dress room, naught one, naught one. I think it was around that, I can't have got many more. And then there's me, Chris Adams and Freddie Flintoff, who had a free, not me and Freddie put on a few, might put on 50. And they always remember, I think up 34, Freddie might have got 37, something like that. It was like the saviors of English cricket, and we got 30. That's how bad it was in those days. But, yeah, two for four before I faced the ball. I'm going to bring Russell in just a moment, what do you want to say? Well, I just, they're saying, he, when Paul and he said, "It is the same game, 100% right. The only thing I remember is in the whole first test, when I just kept looking down the shirt, I could not believe I was wearing the three lines. And I suppose it is the same game, except you're wearing a totally different shirt, which you're really proud to do, and then that just brings everything else too. But if you can park all that stuff, you can put that to one side, and just concentrate on your job and don't try and be someone you're not, makes such a big difference. Did you find, I found that it was so much, that the ball came down a little bit quicker, and you're facing the name, Alan Donald, Sean Pollock. So, you've got a superstar running into you, which, you can't cricket, you know, in the 90s, we had Alan Donald, so I'd face Alan Donald in carrot cricket. You know, all the overseas pros were pretty much quick bowlers, but I found the game slow. You know, test match cricket, the tempo of it was so much slower. You know, the overall rate was just a little bit slower. There was more gaps. You know, in carrot cricket, I always remember that heading, particularly. You generally always had, you know, stump to stump, generally an extra cover on the couch, even from the first few overs. Whereas I was taking, God, I could just see all these stuff. Look at all the gaps. There's loads of gaps everywhere. And I just felt the game was played, you know, a lot slower. You know, you get to drinks and you have a nice brew and you go again. If any captains would get on with it a bit. Russell, what about your debut? My debut was a surprised occasion for me, because I had had a couple of good first-class seasons, scored 1,000 plus runs. But Sri Lanka had just won the World Cup in 1996. We had a very strong batting lineup. And in 1997, Pakistan was a true Sri Lanka. And I had just been named in the squad for the warm-up match. But not to play as the twelfth man. You show up on that day and you're assigned opener. He just pops up and says he's got an injury on his finger. That was charming the main-ness. Then they looked for another opener who was not at the ground. Chandikharthu Singh, who's coach of Bangladesh at the moment. And they couldn't locate him. So here I was in the squad. In you go, Vasim Vakar, their moment's side. At that stage, they termed him super quick. So you played because they played the... Yes, the warm-up game, right. I was caught off a normal game. But you played the warm-up game because they couldn't find someone. Find two others. One chickened out and they couldn't find the other. But I was there at the ground because I was twelfth man anyway. You weren't watching or you were meant to be there. Yeah, carry the drinks. Well, here I got a chance. Caught off a normal... I was 9. By tea time I had ended up on 141. Can you remember the ball? It was stabbed. Moment's eye. And because of injuries, he couldn't play a lot for Pakistan. But he was one of those who was very, very quick in those days. Two days later was the test match. There was a practice session where Roshan Mahanam got his toe smashed. There was a 141. They needed an opener. That was my test debut. Two days later, a couple of twenties. It was a feeling where it was nothing to lose. It came out of nowhere because it just wasn't there. A long-husbanding line-up was so strong in that period. The next tour that Sri Lanka went on was here to England. It was a long inch tour. The test match that was played out here. The only test that I saw was 1998. And after that series, I ended up being the spare batsman in the tournament. In the team till about 1999, 2000, where you started playing. But yeah, it just popped up. Just going back to Varney because I remember. As youngsters, we earmarked to play for England. My first tour out of Sri Lanka was to England and under 19, 20, 19, 92. And our very first game was at Wellington College not too far away. Sri Lanka under 19 played England under 19. One open with Tuscothic. Did he create a good impression only then? Did I get any? I think you've got some, but never smiled. Wasn't friendly now. You see, it's better now. Russell, did you feel ready to play? In a strange way, you all had similar experiences. They were kind of free hits a bit, a little bit anyway. Yeah, a couple of year seasons prior to that. I was really ready because I was topping the run charts and you felt really good. But this particular season, this particular 1997, I had dipped a bit. Maybe a bit of disappointment in not seeing a direction. It could have been for various reasons. Not many runs, but still when that opportunity came, it just felt really good. It gave me a sense of everything to gain, nothing to lose. And you go and play your game. And it just was another game of cricket. That's how it felt for me at that stage. But from there on, the expectations and what comes around it changes how you feel, changes how you think, and it's very important you react in the right manner. How old were you when you met you, Jamie? 23. You were 23, what were you, Michael? Do you remember? I think I was around 24. You see, 24? 21. 21, I think, yeah. Yeah, I reckon I was 24. I think I was 24, 25. I mean, I reckon I think the test match there clearly, you've done something right to get there. I mean, some will say that Joshua has been thrown in there from nowhere, which I don't mind. I think sometimes you can just get thrown in there. And with this culture and this environment, you know, you can be absolutely fine. I actually felt the hardest, but the first few test matches clearly, you're just getting used to things and there's pressure and you're just desperate to try and stay in the side. It's when you get to around 15, 20 test matches and people have seen you. And they start analyzing, you know, what you do and how you play. And you may have played a couple of iffy shots in the media. It tends to criticize you and question one or two aspects of your game. I felt that was the hardest time. When you've kind of had a little bit of them, I've got 100 against Pakistan after, I don't know, 8 or 9 or maybe 10 games. And then suddenly I've got a few games without 100 and, you know, I've got out played a couple of iffy shots. And that ball nipping back was whacking me on the pad or going through the game. Oh, this is not good. My technique's not kind of standing up all the time. I found that the challenge, the challenge when I played a bit and people had seen a little bit more of me. It's the second coming that really makes you, who you are, all legend of the game. Because as you walk in, even you guys said, when you debut, it's a little easier. You sometimes get the feeling of everything to gain. But then you are bound to have a deep, you are bound to be criticized. And then the expectations of everyone on your shoulders. That's what I meant by reacting to that is what takes you forward or makes you a proper cricketer. You see a lot of players pop in, pop out and go on. But those who are able to ride those disappointments or dips are the ones who are the great ones. What about the support from your teammates? I mean, do you get a lot of that as a debut? I'm sure there's a lot of backslapping here, well done, congratulations. But I mean, cricket is a funny game, isn't it? Because you're kind of competing against other people in your own team sometimes. Like, you think, well, actually, if you fail, I might get a longer run or whatever sometimes. What about that aspect of it? Well, for me, it was all about proving that I was good enough to be in that dressing room. That was, you know, I wasn't too fussed about what the other teammates were doing to me. I just wanted to earn the respect and felt I belonged there. Because you get given a debut and everyone's like, you know, we're all looking at Josh Hull, tomorrow, when every bowl's and goes, what's this kid like? Is he actually any good? Is there potential? And until, for me as a player, I wanted to feel like the guys opposite me. And when the team I was walking into was after 2005, they were on a big pedal stall for me. Because obviously I was young and it was a great series. I was like, I just want to prove that I can bang to those guys. And getting 100 the first time made a big difference. The second one, actually, my 80 Lords in the third test match was the one I was like, yeah. I mean, obviously I wanted 100, but then I thought, yeah, actually, it's not that I learned the respect, but I think they think I can play. And as soon as you've done that, then you can start to be a little bit more settled in the environment because you feel as if you belong. The environment's important, you know. There's only so much, and you can have a comfort blanket of everyone's slapping you on your backside and telling you how great you are. But fundamentally, it comes down to you. You know, it's that inner chat that you have with yourself. So I, as a captain, would always try and make any new player feel really welcome. But fundamentally, I think it helps in some way. But fundamentally, it comes down to the individual of finding that belief inside themselves. Of that trust of being able to cope with the pressure. And it is about proving, play it to players, to supporters, to the opposition that you can stand at that level. And that just comes down to you. That's why Cricket is such an amazing game because there's only you. You know, there's only one person can face the ball that's you. There's only one person that can deliver the ball that's you, and there's only one person. I guess you can have help with catches these days because they flick them all over the place. But that's why it's a great sport. It has this team kind of protection and this team support. But fundamentally, when you go out there, there's only you that can deliver the skill. No one else can help you. That's very true because it comes down to how you feel and what you want to achieve. Playing first-class cricket with a lot of the greats. I played at the Nondescripts Cricket Club at that stage. It was Aravindha, Hashantila Karatna, who were the big boys. So trying to compete with them, trying to get your performances, to make yourself feel good was what the motivation was. Because you're seated at home dreaming of trying to be out there. And then here comes an opportunity initially at first-class cricket and then beyond. There's a bit of a push within you. I reckon if that's not there, you're not going anywhere. Well, that plays who you, as captain, actually, just looking from a different perspective, captain, he's not struggling. He's not going to make it. I'm not necessarily asking to name names. But I've got a great example of two, really, where Simon Kerrigan here in a test match against Australia. He'd been the leading left-down spinner for a little bit in County Cricket and done well. So we picked him and then he played in England Lions game against Australia at Northampton and Shane Watson destroyed him. And I knew it happened and we played three spinners, I think Wokes, he was playing at six. So we had three seamers, sorry, two spinners. I was like, I've got to love not to bowl Kerrigan at Watson to start with. But it got to the stage that I wanted to get him in the game. We needed to bowl him and we picked him because we thought he was good enough. And unfortunately, Simon probably has a totally different feel of it and his side of the story. But unfortunately I had to bowl him there, it felt like I had to bowl him there anyway. I guess who's first ball he bowls to, Shane Watson, I think the first over went for loads. And he never recovered from it. So I didn't see that coming when I faced him a year before for Lancashire against Essex. And I said to Jimmy Court, he's got something about him. He's a proper game situation because I've never seen a young ball come and set his own fields. You know, demand the captain that I need this field, I need this. This player is going to do that, he really thought Alth thinks the bats. Do you know what I mean? From what Jimmy I trust as well, telling me that. Then I see him a year later or however long was and he can bowl and then it didn't go very well. So obviously I've got to take a bit of the blame that the environment wasn't good enough for him. Or what not to go out and play. So another one, Anzari as well from Saffra Ansari from Surrey, who went to Bangladesh in India. You know, one of those third spinners bat a bit. And never, you know, the environment and debut would ever never got him comfortable in playing for England. So as I was captain, you have to take a bit of the responsibility for that. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think. I don't think I've ever played with a player and thought, "Oh, you've got no chance." I've played with players that I thought, "Oh, you might struggle in certain conditions." But I don't remember how many players in my time is captain played only a handful of games. It's quite a group, but there are some, but I don't remember thinking, "Oh, they're not coping with the pressure." It's not quite right for them. It's just they weren't picked because there were other players available. The key as a captain is just making sure that that player that you bring in just gets everything that they require to deliver what they've done to get in the side. And I guess the challenge for England will be with Josh is that, you know, what he's done to get into the side is not necessarily numbers in County Cricket. It's more in practice. Now, they saw him last week, they pick him for the test squad. And I reckon inside the first few balls in the net, they've all gone, "Oh, hello." Got someone that can potentially play straight away. And, you know, you look at Matthew Potts, he's done absolutely nothing. He bought beautifully at Lords. And he misses this week in these conditions, which you would say are absolutely perfect for Matthew Potts. But England have seen something Joshal in practice. His numbers in County Cricket don't warrant him a place in the England Cricket team. But this management, this group, this culture that they've created is completely different to anything this cricket has ever done. And the fact that they've sent him in early, you know, young kid, 19, 20 years of age, 21, I mean, they shouldn't have any fear, really. I guess when you get picked 25, 25, you've had a bit of fear, because you've had a few failures. This guy's not had any real failures in his life. He's just got everything in front of him. You know, with this environment and this culture, you know, there's been good cultures in the past. But I think this is as good as any that I've ever seen with English cricket, and they look after the players so well. There aren't many one-test wonders anymore, one-test failures anymore in English cricket. You want this one-test mind went back to Scott Bortwee, how many tests did he play? Scott Bortwee played in that. Mason Crane, because I remember, I live in Sydney, so he's over you. I got another one as well, I was just trying to hear you more. And I coached, helped coaching in a private school there one day when I went in Bortwee because they're helping coaching as well. He was playing great cricket and we just got talking and he said his plans were to try and make the lines to a Tsuri Lanka, which was due January, February, this was around November that year. A month later, he played a test match from Norway. How many one-tests caps did I give out? That's not where Zalps was going with his research. I'll give him a bit of time. Art in Sagas, did he play more than one game? I think he played more than one of them. I think I had four. I said, Scott Bortwee, Mason. Well, you'll give it to him. Crane, yeah. Mason Crane, Boyd Rankin. I think I've got one more as well. The last one-tests won there. Here's a question. Who is the last one-tests won there? Oh, I did this the other day. England. I'll leave. I'll listen just to think about that for a moment for I give you the answer. Bracey, did he play two? No, he played two. No, he played two. He played two. Just go back to the last tour of Pakistan. He walked out of the game injured. Liam Lemedy, I'm Livingston. What about Parkey? He's a one-test one. He was a half-test. He wasn't picked in the original team. He was ace Jack Leach, who got concussed fielding early on. That's right. Talking about the environment here, excluding Livingston because he didn't actually bowl in that game. They picked eight debies and bowlers since Stokes and McCollum took over. I'm not counting Parkinson's. They didn't pick him. No, no. Okay, good night. Anyway, those eight that they've selected for the games between them on debut 52 wickets at 22. Five of them have taken a fiver. Atkinson took seven and five in his case. Potts, one of the exceptions, took four and three on his day, including Kane Williamson twice. That was against New Zealand in that first basketball test show with Bashir. Had a three for on debut and five for the next three tests that he bolded in. The only basketball debutant bowler who didn't thrive with the ball was Jamie Overton. He made 97 with the bat. There's been an extraordinary run, particularly with the ball. Just put that in context. I got playing around with the spread sheets in between tests, as I like to do, over there. Going back to the previous debutants for England, looking at the previous sort of 16 bowlers picked collectively average 36 on debut. It's been an extraordinary run of getting players to succeed straight away. You talked about the environment when you came in, Michael. Central contracts came in pretty much exactly that time. Yeah, 2000. Since 2000, looking at England, top seven batters, purely in their debut games, are collectively average 36 in the 80s and 90s. They were churning through players an incredible rate. The average score for an England debutant batting in the top seven was 18. Clearly, that must have helped others. A string of players did really well in the 2000s. Strauss had century and 80 on debut before being run out by Nasser Hussein. In the 80s and 90s, Graham thought with the only England debutant to make a century on debut. Something that changed with batting when central contracts came in. This particular regime has managed to get incredible things out of bowlers, often without much of a first-class record. Looking at Josh Hull and where he stands in the least experienced players before test debut. Since the start of the 20th century, in the 80s and 80s and 90s, who had never played first-class cricket and played test matches in the games when they used to play in South Africa and matches that retrospectively were awarded test data. I think we can sort of ignore them. Ray and Arm had played three matches in first-class cricket before his debut in Pakistan in 2022. Show of Bashir six before his debut in India earlier this year. Josh Hull has played ten. You've basically got to go back to Ian Peebles' 1927 and played ten tests. It's been ten first-class matches before his first test. So it's unprecedented really in 100 years of English cricket to pick players with so little experience, but they've had this incredible track record of those players thriving instantly without anything in their first-class record to suggest that would happen. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. This season, Instacart has your back to school. 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Experience the convenience of shopping Blue Nile, the original online jeweler since 1999 at bluenile.com. When do you feel like part of it, you feel happy in the environment? How long does that take? You must have that adrenaline playing your first test match excitement, whatever, your desperation to do well. When is it you feel after how many games you feel settled in the team? Yeah, when you wake up in the morning, you don't feel that churning in your stomach. You feel ready to go to work and play for your country. Well, I don't think churning ever goes. But I've already mentioned that for me it's my third test match. It was a toss-up of selection between me and Ian Bell because Trez came back at the beginning of that summer against Sri Lanka. So he made himself available, he was going to play, and it was obviously between... and Bell, he got 100 in Pakistan in the Tour before, and got a good 80 on that tour. So it was a selection call between him and me, and I got picked ahead of him. And I remember being really excited, actually, I got into a train dream. The desperate do, I got the 80 odd, and I thought, do you know what? They obviously had backed me, and I felt from there, and I wanted another 100, but I felt there, and I felt settled in the environment of how I played. So three games? Three games for me, yeah. The way I thought, actually, because I got a big call from the selectors, that means, that obviously means hierarchy. I actually, I know he didn't capture, but obviously still heavily involved. Freddie was around as captain of the game, so, and Duncan Fletcher, they're three people. You're getting back to head of Ian Bell, who done pretty well. You know, you are. That was for me anyway. Yeah, I would say, after my first 100, the game's packaged down. So in which test number was that? It was 10 or 11. 10 or 11. It might have been 11. I think once you get your first 100, I mean, I still got it at the first time of knocking. That's when I felt, oh, yeah. Yeah, I can be here for a while, but I think there's always a little bit in the back of your mind that you know that if you have two or three games where you don't score a run, well, you're going to be back to square one. So I never, ever thought, oh, I'm going to be on the next winter's tour too far. But I was in the middle of the summer, and I played OK, and there was two or three games to go. I knew I was going to be going away in the winter. Whereas, you know, I didn't look too far ahead, because fundamentally, it's, you know, it's a tough game. And you're only ever, you know, bad stroke, a dodgy LB. A finger injury away. Yeah, a bit of misfortune and injury. Towards the back end, I was clearly just fighting a bit of a knee problem. But when I was completely fit, I never, ever, it was said was I 100% comfortable. The only sound was 100% comfortable as when I was captain. And captaining after about 20 tests, man. Just very quickly. Well, we were only ever on one of your deals. So, Vorni's right. Like, you had to score runs pretty quickly in that year if you wanted another central contract. Basically. You were never given that security. You know what? We've got you a one year, but, you know, that's what's around. But you're going to be playing for three or four years. No one ever spoke about three or four years' time. It wasn't like for you, Russell, because you had a, sort of, what, a 40-odd test career and 181 day internationals. So, you're much more sort of consolidated in the one day side than perhaps the test match. Did you have those ups and downs? Did you feel settled at any point? Was it a real struggle at times? Well, till about 2000, I was the spare batsman, but I was very comfortable because whenever on tour you get a warm-up game and I was able to get a hundred all the time. Even in England, it was a 200 that I made in that spare game against Somerset. But in 2000, there was a clean-out. All the seniors, they cleared out Sanjayi's theory, was made captaining. It was all the younger guys pushed in. From that moment on, it was just us. And it was the same core players who featured in the white ball format and we were having a great run in performances. So that little period, we just felt strong. As a unit, we knew who was going to be there, and personally as well, it was strong. But come 2003, 4, the dips started coming in and then the doubts created. My game was pretty different, too. When you compare the Jaivardhanas, Sangakaras or Jayasuri, it was not totally flat, a couple of pokes to point everything off the pads. So the theory was that, you know, we need players who can hit it everywhere, even though I was making runs. So I started feeling the pressure come 2004, that they were looking elsewhere, but couldn't go anywhere elsewhere because the runs were there, but there was a bit of pressure. What was I like to cope with? It was hard. It was pretty hard, because every day you're being tested. But that period between 2000 to 2003, we were just coasting as a team and personally, but from there on, you get particular theories, coaches, managers, and you want to take certain directions. My style of play, or how I looked, didn't suit that. That was a hard period leading away from 2004. I'm going to bring tough as in to tell his debut story. But Michael, I just pick up on Alistair's point there. He said, "Every match I play for England." What did you play, Alistair, in the end, 161? 161, and most of them consecutively as well. So you missed yours. What would have been your third test match? You played two, and they got ill in Mumbai. Michael, were you churning every, sort of, before every match? Yeah, yeah, really nervous, yeah. And once the game started, and we're into the contest, and I kind of knew the conditions, and within the first... I reckon the first half of the first day, you kind of know the way the game's going. You can see it. I was nervous, but I could relax. But leading in that first morning, I was always, you know, getting up early. There were some nights I didn't sleep, you know, just desperate to do well. The worse as captain or as batter, captain. Yeah, I'm a batter as well. I mean, I kind of both aligned together. There's nothing worse than that. When you're going through a run of low scores, or not feeling right, you do go to bed at night, and you're trying to work it out. You know, you're trying to work out in your mind, "What's wrong?" "Why aren't I moving quite correctly?" And it's amazing to get out of that. I always found going so far back to the basics. It's like underarm drills, just like the most basic element of batting, which you could do when you were ten. That would get me back into form, and then you get back into form and you think, "Well, why don't I just do those little basic drills all the time?" So, yeah, night times, used to have a glass of wine or two. You know, it's not that it was the most professional thing, but I think it relaxed me, maybe helped me sleep a little bit better. But there were so many nights where I'd toss and turn and just try to work things out in your head, and that's why the test match game is such a hard game. You've got five days to play. You've got seven days that you're there, really, two days of practice. You've got, what, six or seven sleeps if it goes right down to the wire. And it is survival. And some will say it's survival at the maddest, who's madd enough to kind of really focus for such long periods of time and challenge themselves day in day out in practice and challenge yourself getting out there and facing the music. That's why it's such a great game. Just laughing, he's saying about going to bed and thinking about it. The worst, when you're out of form, the worst thing is when you have a dream when you get 100. That's the worst, ever. And you wake up and you go, "I'm still out of Nick." "I know you're 100." Yeah, you wake up and you think you're under and you're absolutely destroyed and you realise you're averaging five, whatever you are. That's the worst. It's about the eggs in the morning don't face well when you're out of Nick. It's not everything's wrong. No. Go on, Tuppers. You're David. Hello, Tuppers. Hello, David. I don't know whether they'd actually allow it now. I think it might be sort of like called bullying or something. Mine was at the MCG, Boxing Day Test Match. Yeah. Probably a couple down. And then go and have a little go on that one. No means I'll sort of stag it out there. Who did you replace? Oh, God. Eddie Hemings, perhaps, or something. I don't know. I'm sure that was my debut. Was it? Oh, I'm sure it isn't. Well, everyone's debut is memorable. Except from, for Tuppers. No, I think it was. It was the MCG 1990 Second Test to that. There you go. Eddie Hemings was on that tour as well. Yes, I probably got rid of Eddie. Scores in the game. Let's give you the scores in the game. England 352. How many did the cat get? 352 and Australia 306. We've got a first and he's lead. Did the cat get any runs? No, I'll tell you what I got. I'll tell you what I got. I'll tell you what I got. England 150 and Australia 197 for two. I'll tell you what I got. I'll tell you what I got. I'll tell you what I got. It's called an Audi. Which is nought for and nought for. Nought not out and nought out. Which is four, four zero's. And I've got a lovely bat from all the boys. And it's probably one of the only things that I've caught. It's kept, you know, with them all sort of, like, taking the Mickey out of it. But thankfully, and I had as well I had. That is the test match when Peter McConnell. I used to have a little sort of tick when I bold, you know, like sort of three or four balls or four balls. How many left in the overrun? Like that. And after about sort of, and then Gucci threw me this ball. Talking about, you know, readers and, and, you know, and Jukes and what have you. He threw me this ball which didn't have a, which only had dots around it. It had no stitch between the dot. All the quarter seam had sort of, like, come apart and everything. And Gucci's gone like all the never bowl. Like that, 100, 100,000 or whatever. Like that. I've gone, oh, Christ. What am I going to do with that? You know what I mean? And then I ran up and I don't really remember the first two deliveries. I don't really remember the first two deliveries. It was to Dean Jones, I think. And then, and then the third delivery. He came running down the pitch and hit it straight back at me. And it hit me right on the ankle point, inside ankle point. And I've got, oh, oh my God. I didn't even sort of go down to it. I was squealing like that and it sort of woke me up. And then I kind of bowled all right. But then also that was then the thing is, so I had this tick. How many balls left in the over? How many balls left in the over? And on about my third over, I said to, I think it was Peter McConnell. How many balls left in the over? And he said, count them yourself. You're pommy dot dot dot dot. To which I've gone, oh, OK. Nasty. That's a bit nasty. Like that. And then Gucci came running over. And said, to be fair, granted me, supported me to the hill. He said, he said, you can't talk to my players like that. I'm afraid. And now McConnell's gone. It's not going to do what a bloody want, right? You know what I mean? So they had a little bit of a ding-dong. And all the sort of scribes up the top all said, tough, no tantrum in the morning. Oh, tough, no this, tough, no that. When really the blokey was the blokey was having to go at me. I was having a chucker with Philly the day. Just looking at his test career. And I said, you know what, Phil? In the 90s. I reckon you went on every tour. You sure what? I think I did. He's played 42 test matches, haven't you? Yeah. I reckon he toured in the 90s. I remember. I think this cricket in the 90s. Winter tours. West Indies. Australia. India. And Phil often was on every single one. And at the end of the 90s, 99, my first tour. Guess who's on it? Phil! I reckon he went on every tour. And it's funny. It's funny he said about churning and everything. When you used to stay with the same, with the opposition in the same hotel. You know what I mean? You're talking about churning and what have you. You know, you'd sit there and watch Kurt the Ambrose, Courtney Walsh. You know, come down for breakfast. You know, I've got a bit of fruit. Sort of trying to sort of get this sort of scrambled egg down. You know what I mean? Or something like that. Currently in Courtney. They're just going around going on my little bit. You know, I have a bit of that, a bit of that. And I just looked at them and sort of said, what? They don't look like they're concerned at all. You know, about their performance. I'm sure they probably were. And it's the same with the Aussies. We stayed in the Aussies. You know what I mean? Adam Gilchrist was wandering around just going, oh, I think I might have another bit of something. I think I might have another sausage. Oh, those ash browns. I'll have two of those ash browns. You know what I mean? Sat down. Big smile in his face. You know what I mean? And so I was sort of sitting there going, oh no. That's why I went to the England players yesterday, three o'clock, where they were playing golf. They went to a centurion golf club, played some golf. I reckon in the '90s, if you had said you're going to go and play golf the day before it's out, there's no way you would have been allowed. You'd have been sent home. You're not taking the games. You can completely understand why they're doing it. They're doing it. So, as Phil mentioned, that relaxed attitude that you require to really just enjoy this moment. And that's what Basme Cullum's brought in. He just wants the players to enjoy playing for him. And I think the golf, there's a bit of psychology around that, at least just making sure that they're enjoying the time, switching off from the churn of what this brings. Did you enjoy playing for England? I did at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, I really did at the beginning. I think I've got 50 wickets quite sharpish. You know what I mean? It would probably about, I don't know, six games or something. I'm not sure. No idea. But quite sharpish. And it sort of enjoyed it. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait. Listen. I can't remember that. I'm sorry. I'm floundering here. But it was quite quick. It was quite quick. It was quite quick. Very quick. Yeah. We talked about your debut. You didn't get a wicket. You called a lot of owners. You took off your five games. You didn't get one of his first. Life is the highlight. I took about a second to your own. Yes, it did. Yes, it was. Yes. Are you at that point doubting yourself? Absolutely. I couldn't go back to Peter McConnell on that because you cannot Jack Russell because I David Boone cutting. And this was about in the fourth over like that after he said count himself and so and so and so. And then I David Boone cutting to which there was this massive sneak like that. And Jack's just caught it and we've just gone yes. Like that. And then I've looked round and we've gone. How's that? How's that? And he gave me the biggest smile of his life. And he went no doubt. And I went. Oh. Oh. Like that. And then you're right. And then it became a little bit of the thing. I kept sort of like I went to bed after that test match and then played Sydney. What time? Which they were. Which thankfully then I got a five for that. But I hadn't got a few and I just kept having these sort of like thoughts of sort of like, you know, on, you know, on my headstone, you know, full tough and all. The only man to play test cricket never to have got a wicket. And so these things then started getting him and he started getting very sort of stressed about sort of like decisions and things like that. And then I finally got a wicket which was a flow full toss to Greg Matthews, which he came down the wicket and hit straight down Eddie Emmons throat long on. And then I've sort of gone and that took me a while. But then I just thought, right, well, that's that first one done. And then went on to get a five for it. All of a sudden became sort of just me, instead of me trying to be something else. You know, do you know what I'm trying to say? Relaxing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I actually took out a will in the West Indies before I went because it was, it became a very sort of nerve-wracking affair. You took out a will because of the quick ball and you were about to fight. Yes, I did. Absolutely. I did because it was the sort of the pressure and that sort of tension of it all. You know, people would laugh and joke, you know, I mean, all feel you've got your chest pad on. I go, I've got a chest pad on. You know what I mean? And you'd go out there and these currently are both called Alan Donald, Sean Pollock, Wazzie MacGran, Wecar Eunice. You know, I would physically, you know, be, you know, it's a great word, churning. You'd be churning waiting to go out to bed. Absolutely. Not necessarily just for the sort of, you know, for the situation of the game, but actually because, you know, you were very apprehensive about it. When you were waiting to face, you know, a quick and there was many horrible. What's going through your mind as you wait for that moment? I couldn't look. I couldn't look. I just sort of used it just sort of like, because someone can come and get me. I'll be in the physio's room, under the physio's bed. Do you have any tactics? No. Didn't have any. No one told me any tactics. No one told me anything. Did you have a bat and a net? I had two nets for England. Honestly. Yes. And I walked... Hold on. Both of them. What? Suffered. You had two nets for England? Yes. Two nets. Yes. Two nets. One lost in one ball. Where was that? That was in South Africa. Joe Hannesburg. Was that centurion? No, not centurion. Wanderers. Wanderers. Is that a mitre? Don't come early. Don't come early. Don't come in Fletcher. Grabbed hold of me and said, "Right, you're coming round for a net." You know what I mean? And the only one who was free, because all the other guys were sort of playing and stuff like that, was Alex Tudor. I, you know, Tudor. And I think he was sort of like, he'd just missed the game or something like that. So he was desperate. He was desperate to sort of like get back into the side. And there were no side screens at where it is. Joe Hannesburg. Wanderers. Up on the top of that hill. Yes. No side screens. No, nothing. So I've sort of reluctantly got my pads on like that. Tudor has come, and I've said to Tudor, I've said Tudor, whatever you do, picture it up. So Tudor has come running and it has built me this sort of like amazing yorker, which I didn't even see because there was no side screens, just this sort of like cups of trees on the hill. Bang. Polls everywhere. And I said this and I can't see. I'm not facing this. I mean, I might be playing the next test. I might get one on the end and break the finger like that, stormed out the net, Duncan Fletcher's running after me. Get back here. Get back here. Get back here. I said, well, I'm not doing it. It's like a Ben Hill's test, and then the other time, the other time, that was one of your England. That's the other one. Well, that was about 10 years later. The first time was on my first tour with Mickey Stewart, and it was in Perth, and the Perth Nets were the old Perth Nets were really rapid like that, and so it's come round to my time. But then all the hard guys had sort of gone off, and Mickey Stewart had organized net bowlers from Australian first grade cricket. Oh, very nice. There you go. All with a great deal of incentive and knock over a pond. Absolutely. With all the school kids by the Nets abusing you. Absolutely. The two guys who we'd got were these two brothers from west or north, or something like that. They both turned up on Harley Davidson's. They had handlebars, moustaches, leather waistcoats, you know what I mean like that. Got changed into the gear, and came in, and the first three balls, one nearly knocked me head off. I got one on me ribs like that, and the other one in front of my face with my hands, and I could have been playing the next day, so I walked out of that net. Throw down? Any throw downs? A few underarms? I can see the pointing to you. You just remind me, so on my first tour, it's fair to say, Phil, I'm not giving away any secrets. Your relationship with Duncan Fletcher was, it wasn't at its finest, and we get to the last test match that's then shown he's not playing. And Duncan used to have this six ball field in drill, cones, and used to have to run, and he used to make you dive, and you have to catch the ball, and you have to fling it back to him, and it was basically shuttles with a bit of catching and skill of fielding. Fitness fielding, isn't it? We were all sick doing it, it was like a feeling, and anyway, it was avoided it. We were all sat there, and just having our chicken, we saw Fletcher taking Tuftnal out onto the outfit, and went, "Oh, what does something good for?" So I knew the cat is smart, and he realised that the coach on the top six balls out, and within a minute or so, the cat's down diving, he starts all right, and then he gets a bit so, so he starts winging these balls, miles over flat, so the field in drill stopped. Fletcher's storming off, he's storming off. That was a horrible field injury, and he was so good at it, you'd get the first couple, and then the third one, you'd go, "I don't just land in front of me, you've got to pick yourself up," and then, and also, why I didn't get on with Fletcher, was that the grass is different over there, it's that sort of spiky grass, and I can very bad hay fever, you know, and in Perth, that very sort of harsh, you know, couch grass or something, and if you roll around in it, if you roll around in it, it used to bring me out in sort of waves, you know what I mean, I used to get HE and UMI eyes and very sensitive skin, you know what I mean, and so, you know, I'd sort of try to avoid it a little bit, you know what I mean, and then I was playing at the RAF ground for Middlesex, and we'd just come back from the tour, and I'm sitting there like that, I've got bacon sandwich on, and perhaps a fag, like that, watching, I was watching this morning because Middlesex 2s were batting like that, so I'm upstairs on this sofa like that, all of a sudden, Duncan Fletcher walked in because he surprised us, surprised us, so he's opened the door to which I sort of, he didn't tell me he was coming down to sort of like, you know, tell me how I'd gone in the tour, like that, and he's gone, so I put the fag out quickly like that, put the bacon roll down and sort of picked up some yogurt or something, and he sort of come in and he sat down and everything, he said, tough as you know, he didn't do too bad, you know, he didn't do too bad, you know, he perhaps did some more nets, you don't mean bold all right, but he said, you know, you've got to do some, some more fielding, and I said, and I, and I meant it seriously, I said, well Duncan, I said, it's interesting you say that because I think I'm allergic to fielding practice, and he looked to me, and he just said, oh God, they just walked out the door, but I, but I sort of was, you know what I mean, and that was it, I was it, that was it, never spoke to me again, the whole tour I remember just coming back every night, and the cat would just be sat there with a pike lager and a bowl of nuts, and never saw him eat anything but a bowl of nuts, they were great days though, but it was a change, then that was the change, you know, I mean it must have been, as you say, I'd start it quite a long time before that, where everyone just sat in the barn at a point, a lot of marvelous, just on that thing about feeling settled in a teenage, was there a point when you didn't, you know, you weren't anxious, you weren't churning, you would, throughout your test career, Michael was talking about his sort of tension and cookie, saying every game was a tense affair, well well, the strange thing about that is that when I got, I think I pulled out New Zealand in that last session and got, I know, 10 for or something, 11 for or something, I can't even, just check that and it's, you got a three for it, two for a hundred and six, yeah, like that, which was amazing, I felt great and everything like that, but then that then almost has its own pressures in it as well, because I thought, oh well, you know, and it was a flat pitch, it was a flat pitch at Christchurch, and so the next then test, I came on to bowl and sort of didn't get many, you know, and got perhaps knocked about a little bit like that and I thought, well, what's gone wrong? You know, I just bolded them out the day before round, or the game before round, you know, I mean, bowl beautifully, and I feel like I'm bowling beautifully now, but they're, you know, 150 for one and I can't get anyone out, so all of a sudden you then start going, what am I doing differently? And so there's all these little things that even sometimes then with success, it almost then brings an added pressure, because you've got to keep trying to do that. Mental guy. Yeah, we apparently you were telling the truth in that, 11 in the match, 7 for 47 in the fourth, the second of the week. There you go, there you go, very good, Phil. Yeah, it's very easy, isn't it, for people to just sit on the sidelines and watch, you know, you know, Vaughn, he's got three norts or something like that used to get him out of the team, but you know, as a human being in there, well, you know, I think you go through so much as players. Well, I think the batters have it harder than the bowlers. I really do, bowling to be fair, you know. I've got a few wickets, why just, I don't know, some, some like just missing it, you know, they mean, you haven't bolded everyone that's picked, turned, and sort of turned and bounced and what have you. And, you know, a batter then has to face that delivery. It's like a new day, every single delivery. It's like a new day, you know what I mean? At least when you're bowling, you know, you just sort of bowl it, you know, and you talk go through your variations and what have you. But you then sort of, and I suppose as a batter, you can then get into your innings like you get into your spell. But in essence, the next ball that the bowler bowls to a batter is like a whole new ball, it's like a whole new day again. Must have been incredibly difficult. That's why I didn't have any nets. Are you sorry? I just think we're so, so careful sitting up here, it looks such an easy game. Oh. And it, and I was, this is like the first year I've commentated without playing. And last year I always, you know, the last few years, I've always gone back to playing when you're netting, tough as I'm netting. Actually, how quick the ball is. I'm not saying it's impossibly quick, but it is quick, it does nip it. And even on TV and doesn't, it doesn't look like nips at all. Actually, it nips a lot more than you think. It does swing and it is, and you forget you sit here, glad we're having a great time and you go out and bat. It's so, you know, you can't replicate that feeling you get walking out. I love my time playing. I turned every single day, it was nerve wracking. That's what you live for. That's what we were bred to do, live for. But really careful that I forget actually how hard central contracts were one biggest thing. Yeah, I think without any question, but I also do think that England now pick players and attitudes that aren't necessarily the churning type, the over thing. You look at some of that Keaton Jennings. You know, his numbers speak for themselves. In my opinion, he should have opened in the series, but they didn't go with him because maybe they feel that it does overcomplicate the game. And the kind of characters that England pick are those types of characters, I think Bendock Hitler, but in that dress room, he's probably pulled out a PlayStation or out of game of cards, out of laugh. And the England are picking those start of cricketers now that, you know, I think there's a lot to be said that you need the real, you know, discipline players as well. But I do think they have a group that seems to whether it's the external portray of what they're trying to deliver. I'm not too sure, but they seem so relaxed. They seem so chilled in the morning. They have a game of football. You know, they play golf. They have a bit of fun earlier in the week. They are really in a culture and an experience which is all about the enjoyment. Look at Basmer Collins' comments about getting the whiteboard job and about Josh Butler. It's about, I'm going to make sure that his last few years he's going to enjoy. You hear the word enjoyment more now than in any other era, and there's a reason behind that. Yeah. And actually, though, I do play as talk about the difficulties they're facing. You know, there might be some external look, but there's that internal feeling. I mean, you're about that 2019 World Cup match before England played against India, where they had that meeting and everyone's been stoked saying, yeah, I'm actually really scared. We're going to mess this up. You know, and other players listening to that thought, you know, they were really grateful for his honesty there and saying that because that's kind of how I do as well. You know, we played so well for three, four years, and we got to the stage and suddenly, oh, we don't win this game. It's all for nothing. So, let's be honest, in a year's time, this is going to be the kind of the judgement time for this team. This series and the West Indian series that we saw in the summer, it's not going to be the judgement of this team. It's India at home, Australia Way. I remember in 2005, actually, we played the Australians in a one-day series. And I always remember we're at Heddingley, and Triscothic got up in the team room, and it was in the dressing room. We're just discussing the next day's play, and he just stuck his hand and said, I've got a problem with McGraw. It's the first time I'd ever heard an England player stick his hand up in front of the whole group, all the management. Who's that, Chuck? Triscothic, right? He just said, I've just got to be done. I've got a real problem with that, McGraw. It's a real issue. And everyone, it was a chuckle to start with, because, you know, fuck, come on. And then everyone, okay, how can we help? And he said, well, I just don't know quite how to play him. And there was one or two of this, and why don't you just leave a few? Why don't you just go out to him? Why don't you bat out your crease? Why don't you bat on off stomach just try and give him some visual that's slightly different. Not saying the conversations made him go and get runs the next day, but the next day he went out there. And what happened was the whole team were like together on the balcony, watching every ball that he faced McGraw. And every time he, it was like a whole collective getting behind someone that had openly just said, I have a real issue facing this ball. I'd never ever heard it said before in a team room. It was treated, if that would have been said, it would have been seriously treated as a sign of weakness. And by the way, I think there was many others in the team. You're not the only one, but you're the only one that's been open enough to kind of put it into a public forum, not public, but a team forum of debate. Did that happen much in your talk? Well, I was just thinking about the Mitchell Johnson in 2013. We had a bit of a meeting about it. No one was honest enough to say they were scared of facing them. People might not have been scared, but that was a really interesting fact. Flour and I discussed what we were going to do, because obviously it was a big issue. We weren't good enough to get through it. But then you talk about it, none of the batters, we had a batter's meeting about it. No, I think I'm all right. I'm thinking, maybe they were all right. It was an interesting thing. We never found the solution for it. That was a certain. But again, that was a case of almost bravado against facing someone a 93, 94, one-hour bowler. And actually, if someone had stood up there and gone, "Jesus, I'm actually really struggling," that was... I'll go and see Cookie. If someone had done that in the 90s, they wanted to play the week after. They wouldn't. They'd have been, "Oh, you're weak. Come on." But there was still an element of that in 2013. It's still a hundred. I was like, "God, I don't want to admit to our failure." But that is a human nature thing as well. A lot of successful sports people are stubborn. No, actually, no, I'm fine. You might not be fine, but I am fine. But all the other psychology of sport and the psychology, there is only one person who can go out and change it. And that's you. So you can have all the help you want, but the help doesn't hold your hand walking out to the middle. So I agree, they might be relaxed, but I don't care what anyone says. There's still anxiety in that change room. It might be a way like, "He like Graham Swan, actually." He beloved his way through his exterior comedy, Joking, which is brilliant for our team, especially got a lot of introverts like himself, Ian Bell, Trot, just to name a few Strauss. Someone coming in and giving it the joy of laughing all the time. That was how Swaney got through his anxiety. Without a shadow of doubt, the fear of him and Debole aside out in the fourth innings, he would laugh about it. But deep down, you knew they were anxiety? You wouldn't have thought it, by the way. Because he communicated that to Chris. No, we spoke about that. But then there's different ways to deal with it. I know that there's anxiety in that change room, maybe slightly less, but if there isn't, they've cured the human brain. Just on introverts, extroverts. I always, you know, in selection, and when you're particularly touring, when you look at Australia, for instance, I think it's so important when you go and play really tough teams away that if you pick a full team, full squad, and you've got so many introverts, in the back of your mind, you've got to think, "Well, wait a minute. If it goes wrong at the first time I've asked in the first test, you know, if you're all introverted, it's very, very difficult to get players to come out without it naturally coming out." And I just think it's so important when you're picking squads that you do how, just a few nutters in there, that just, you know, Darren Gough, brilliant. It always say something that I just make, you know, laughing the most pressurised. Matthew Hoggard was another. Graham Swan, it's so important when you're picking squads on, probably in any series at home as well, but particularly when you're travelling and you're overseas and you just need someone to break their eyes with a little bit of humour, and they're the extroverts that bring that, just that little bit of humour in the pressure situation. Who are the extroverts in this England team? I'm guessing. I mean, I don't know them all. Incredible. I would think someone like Bendock keeps quite an extrovert, or we'll say a few things. Harry Brooke, I think Harry's quite an amusing character at the right times. Mark Wood, without any question, what is probably a coffee character, Catherine Civerbrun, that kind of character that you just need, need those kind of energises that just bring a little bit of, wait a minute, it's just a game of cricket. We know it's not. When it comes to the crunch of it, it's more than a game of cricket when you play in Australia, when you're actually sued or in a world cup, but you need players in your group that just bring it back to, wait a minute, it's just a game of cricket lads. And also coaches as well, you need an environment where it is when you're away for a long period of time. If you do have a side full of introverts, and there's nothing wrong with either introvert or extrovert, if you've got, like, we had a lot of introverts, we had a couple of extrovert coaches, like Mark Saxby, or people who would, you know, his job was to look after people who might get them out of their rooms and stuff when they were struggling. So that's man management stuff. I love how we got into man management, went to my debut system. It's a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. It's tough to just go to another 50 weeks, I would be on it. It just goes to show how the memory fell out of it, but I like the way your memory's faded in a positive way. Absolutely. Just on this, you know, clearly there's a lot of focus on Australia, the rule was is, and those are the really big series for an England team. At what point as a player do you start to sort of get a bit keyed up for it? Are you talking in the couple of weeks before you leave England, like when you get on the plane, like this is it, or when you get through customs for the first time, and you're in Australia, and you're here now, and we've got that build up to the first test, and you can sort of sense it. The build up's quite always quite relaxed, like the first, we have three games, I mean, generally quite low key games, and there's a bit of interest in it. It's when you arrive in Brisbane, in terms of when you arrive in Brisbane as a team, going to that first test for what was a week away. That was, that was to me in terms of like when this is getting serious now, because actually Australia's a great place to tour as a country, it's a brilliant touring country, you know. For me it was when you, at the end of the summer here, and you kind of knew as we were at the oval, we sat here at the oval, yeah I'm going to Australia, I know I'm on the tour, that's when you kind of get excited, because then you do start training hard, because you want to be in a good physical side for it. Yeah, like when it really, first three weeks of Australia tours, great, lots of activities, the old game of cricket, but get a Brisbane, yeah. Yeah, similar, I mean, it depends why you tour, I mean, I guess when you go to subcontinent, you may do some work before you get there, you know, because of the spin element sweeps and making sure you're aligned with the skill set that's going to be challenging when you get over to the likes of Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan, but yeah, I mean, you try and not to think too much about it, or I didn't want to think too much before it happened, it was almost like you get a few days before the test go right, come on I'll switch on. What did you think, Phil? Well, I found out I was going to Australia on sea facts, age 340, that's when it, that's when it came up, like that, so I went, oh my God, oh, I'm actually going to Australia now, fantastic, this is great, and then you don't even know whether anyone really phoned me up, I think Medemite was sent me a letter sort of saying, oh, I'm Medalloy, she's been around here. Is she playing who she is? Oh yeah, she's organized, she organizes everything, all the players, and she is as important as any player in the last 30 years. Oh no, they sent me this sort of embossed sort of like card, you know, with gold leaf on it. So you're Mr. Tuffler, you're Mr. Tuffler. No, I reckon you would have been caught up by it, were you MCC when you first invited by the MCC? I was invited by the MCC to tour Australia, that's one of those tours in the 90s. Yeah, I mean, it looked like a really nice party invitation, you know what I mean? And it was. No, but then you sort of go, oh, great, great, great, and then you have a lot of time to think about it, but then when I realized is when the chaps sort of came round, knocked on your door, and there was your case, and you opened up your case, and there was your blazer in sight. The coffins. Yeah, yeah, and the jumper, and your cat, and then you thought to yourself, oh, here we go. How many England coffins were, you know, the old, the box is the old coffins with your name on it. And you'd have your name and the tour. Yeah, absolutely. And that's with the A side as well in the 90s. Yeah, you got one for the A tour. It must have been so heavy. And then there was a big, remember the last one, the massive red one. Yeah, they were really heavy. And we were sponsored by a phone coming, it all over, the big red ones, they were heavy. Yeah, like a big one. They didn't land on your toes. Oh, you're back, never got scraps, though, did it in those? They had a bit of foam inside. Yeah, because they never got scratch, obviously the bags now, it's always down to the bags. Bats could get scratched. So thanks very much to Alistair, Michael, Russell, and Andy for that. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you subscribe on Busy Sound so you don't miss any content from TMS, including Jonathan Agnew's view from the boundary conversation with legendary commentator Clive Tillsley. England's white ball series against Australia starts on the 11th of September at the Utiliter Bowl in Southampton, with coverage of the first T20 match, starting at 6.15 Wednesday evening. And we'll have commentary on all those England Australia games. Selling a little? Or a lot? Shopify helps you do your thing, however you cha-ching. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. From the launch, your online shop stage, to the first real-life store stage, all the way to the did we just hit a million orders stage, Shopify is there to help you grow. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers, with the internet's best converting checkout. 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms, because businesses that grow grow with Shopify. 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