Only Murders in my Mind
Episode 33: Why Spy Stories Stay Popular
[Music] Welcome to Only Murders in My Mind. A random thought production. Hi, I'm Carol Bissett, a crime writer. And I invite you with my co-presenters, Liz Hedgecock and Mike Jackson, each week to our conversations on all things murderous. Hello, it's that time of the week again, and we're here with our latest episode of Only Murders in My Mind. And with me as usual, I've got Liz Hedgecock, hello, and Mike Jackson. Good afternoon, ladies. What are you doing with your novellas? [Laughter] Sorry, why does that question every time it's ours? Make the pair of you burst into... We're just waiting to hear what you'll come up with this time, it's eight. Well, for nothing you should ask, because recently, I was having to think about this novella. Ah! Don't get too excited. I'm really having a think about it. Oh, you know. I know this shit. And I had this idea on a novella whereby... I like writing short stories, so this novella, when it's written, is in some ways it's going to be a series of short stories that somehow are linked. And one of the ideas I've had is to have three characters somewhere. I need a setting for them. Right. Listen as you know what to do. [Laughter] Please give Mike suggestions for a setting. Ah, that would be very helpful. That would be even more helpful. [Laughter] And to have these three people bouncing off each other, but having something that links them together. Yeah. And I reckon if I did that, an each chapter was about 1,500 words. I'd need 20 chapters. Possibly more, 25 chapters. Okay, yeah. But it could be a working process, wouldn't it? You could do it over 12 months. This novella has been a work in progress. A process, progress, progress. Progress. For some time. But is it been in progress? Or has it just been sort of sitting there? Depends on how you define... Does it have a physical being? It's an idea in my head. Ah. How physical do you want it to be? Well, the whole program's called "Only Murders in My Minds". Only novellas in my mind. Yeah. It could be a spin-off. Yeah. Exploring Mike's mind. Blimey. Do. Yes. Well, I'll get on to our, what we're good to talk about today. No, let's just carry on talking about Mike's novellas. It's much more fun. Espionage and spy thrillers. And when crimes are committed, or maybe not even. And there's a lot of them about. I've got to be honest, a lot of good spy thriller. I really do. Ooh. So what's your favourite? Do you have the favourite? Do you have an author that you like? It's a guilty pleasure, but I do like the James Bond and the Bond identity. Oh, yes. The Mission Impossible, all those sorts of things, which aren't really crime. Well, they are. It's international crime where people are going to blow up the world. It's that I think where people think that espionage is sort of different from crime. But I think it's a different scale. Is that fair to say? I think it's more political crime. Yeah. Yeah. Quiet crime, can't it? Yeah. Espionage. Sort of done on the down low. Yeah. And down with the kids down low. I think the thing is you can have this political mysteries, this espionage, these thrillers. And whether the crime is not big business or anything, it's sort of usually more political. But invariably, somebody gets hurt, murdered, injured. You know, something goes wrong. If you think of all the spy thrillers that we've read or watched. I doubt if we could think of one way somebody hadn't been killed. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, even if it's been poisoned with an umbrella tip, because they are a, you know, somebody has moved away from another country or whatever, you know, it's still murder. And we have seen in this country, real spies. Yes. Being killed by really, we talked a couple of weeks ago about unusual modes of murder. And I'm thinking it was plutonium. Oh, was it? It was a polonium. Polonium. It was polonium. One then spy was killed by in this country. And years ago, there was the poison tip of an umbrella. Yeah. And there was all the business at Salisbury for us. Salisbury. Yeah. So, you know, as we've said before, a fact is stranger than fiction. And when we write our stories and people go, "Would that really happen?" And then we go decorate. Yeah. And possibly already has. Yeah. Probably already has. I think one of my favorites is John McCarry. Oh, yeah. Tinketail and Solja. Yeah. His stories are, I always find they're very, very slow. Almost ponderous. Yes. But there's something, I know, I know when I, the first time I watched Tinketail, a soldier. Spy. It's what you might almost call a sort of slow movie. There was not a lot of talking happening. Or if the talking was happening, it was all very sort of almost ponderous, almost, you know, you think, "Can we get a move on?" sort of thing. But that's just the way the horror stories put together, the way he writes. It's not, it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be quick paced. There was an undercurrent there. Yes. Often there. Yes. Which is what kept you reading or watching if you watched the film, you know? Because you kept thinking. Well, it's a real contrast to something like James Bond. And James Bond, everything happens 110 miles an hour. Oh, yeah. And you can't believe any of it could possibly be true. John LeCarry, because it goes along at a much slower pace. You could think, "I could imagine this happening in Whitehall or Berlin." Well, this is the exchange of prisoners, isn't it, on the bridge? Yeah. You know, they're from east to west. Yeah. Are they, are they going to get across? Or is a sniper going to take them out? Oh, those sorts of things. Yeah. So which version of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spine did you watch? Pass. I've watched both of them. Was it the Guinness one? Yes. Yes. I've watched both of them. They both had merits. Yeah. Okay. So how did they compare? Um, is it the Gary Oldman one? Yeah. Yeah. I think it was a little bit faster in pace than the modern one. Yeah. Just a little bit. I think there was a few more curveballs made more. You were aware of sort of things that could go wrong more. Whereas the original one was, you had it pinned down there. It was, you knew something was going to happen, but you weren't sure when. And it didn't matter. But it's all very dark. You know, everybody wore grey suits. Yeah. The buildings seem to be grey everywhere. The whole thing seemed to be very dark and mysterious. Depressing. Depressing. Yep. Yeah. Sort of the gloom. But I think a lot of post-war countries were like that. Oh, yes. Yeah. You know, they were trying to recover from the worst sort of thing. And there was this cold war going on. And there was a lot of things going on behind the scenes that, you know, that we didn't know about. Probably didn't want to know about. What are your favourites, Liz? Oh, well, I'm going to go for the modern one and go for slow horses. Oh, yes. Yes. I've not seen the television programmes, but I've read the books. Gary Oldman, again. Yes. I don't know this corner of the market in spy people. Yeah. It's strange. It's almost like the misfits from MI6, MI5. MI5, I think it is. The idea is, yeah, if you're a failed spy, you get shipped off to slough hats. Yes. Right. And then it named the slow horses. Yeah. And then they get involved in stuff that they're not meant to get involved in. And then Diana Tavanagh usually is like, what are you all not doing here, Jackson lamb? And you know, Jackson lamb is just like, you know, fueling the fire most of the time. Yeah. So it breaks the men that come out of them being retired to solve cold cases. Yeah. Except this, I think this lot have not really had, they've not really got a purpose in life. They've all really sort of been shoved to get out of, out of sight, out of minds. Yeah. I mean, basically, I don't think they can fire them. No. But what, you know, what they're trying to do is make their work life so mind-numbingly boring that they leave of their own accord. Yeah. That's what they, you know, that's what Jackson lamb's job is. He's presiding over this lot. You know, and he does make their life misery a lot of the time. He's non-pleasant man, isn't he? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you get the full force of that in the adaptation, definitely. Yeah. I really must look into that because it sounds excellent. It is a lot of fun. In the first book, you know, you tend to find out what everybody did to get themselves. Yes. Shipped over to Sloughhouse. Yeah. But even in the Thursday merger club, there's some espionage going on there. Of course. Yes. Which is very subtle, but one of the characters has definitely been in the Secret Service. I mean, MI5 and MI6, MI5, military intelligence, isn't it? That's what the MI stands for. And somebody defined MI5 as the people that gather the information and MI6 are spies. I don't know whether that was a broad sweeping statement. Yes. I tell you what I used to like. It's not been on television for a long time. It was spooks. Oh, I don't even watch that. Oh, it was gorgeous. It was really good. Yeah. Exactly the opposite. John LeCarre, it was fast-moving and what have you. Quite brutal in parts. Quite very brutal in parts. It was killed off of one of the popular couch TV series. Yeah. I remember one episode where she was almost like a trainee. Spy got embroiled somehow, got off and done something. No, I think she'd gone off with one of the senior team and the baddies. Oh, sure. It must be a better way to use baddies. Master spy got hold of her and dipped her head into boiling fat in the TV. Oh! Yes. We all did that. Yeah. Yeah. It was a popular character, it was a regular basis. Yeah. And there was always this thing as well, when you were on the O double agent. You know, there was a little bit of that going on as well. Oh, it was a brilliant series. Yeah. I think it probably went off a little bit at the end, but... It's like all these. John LeCarre. Yeah. Sometimes these things are so good to start with, that the people persevere with them, or let's do another series, let's do another series. Yeah. Well, I imagine if it's a ratings hit then. Yes. Yeah. But I think you often find that by the time you get to the last series, you can see why they decided to... It's run the course. Yeah. It must have felt like that with BBC Sherlock. Yes. Yeah. The last one or two episodes were strained. Yeah. I thought the last series I was... It's about the same thing. It's about most of my time shouting at the TV again. Come on now. Yeah. We did as well. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can watch the first three, quite happily again and again. But I've never ever tried to watch those last few, because it did infuriate me that it was a bit... Oh, yeah. It wasn't right. It didn't feel right. So, what do you like about the Nick Herron books, Mike? Erm... It's only you haven't seen the series. I think it's the... It's the quirkiness, because when you look at it, there will be these people in any organisation, let alone, you know, some like MI5, MI6, that for some reason or another don't fit in, they're not part of the team, and what do you do with them? Yes. And the fact that somebody has found this... this building that nobody's used for a long time, is falling apart and thinking, "Oh, let's ship them over there." Out of sight, out of mind. And it just makes for a whole setting. No. Yeah. I've got a setting out. I don't know about that. Yes! Well, actually, I believe the building where they film it has been up the sale. There you go. Yeah! Did you just research? Yes. Yeah. But, you know, that they create everything about it is such that it shouldn't really work. These people have got nothing in common. They don't like each other. Except for being failures. Except for being failures in quotes. Well, that's the thing that ties them together. They're all stuck in this, you know, hell, where they're being tormented by Jackson and Dante's level of hell. He'll do things like get them looking through the last ten years of parking charges. Oh! Yeah, so it really is bad. I mean, he devises these awful things to do. And again, he's another one that the bosses wanted to get shot of, so they've put him in this place. Well, it's a loose cannon, isn't it? Yeah. The building itself is dilapidated. Yeah. So the whole thing is just so, in some ways, bizarre. Yeah. It's cleverly thought of and makes for a good story. And it's a bit different, isn't it? Yeah, and you can see why it became a film, because you can picture the building, you can picture these characters. Yeah. And the thing is also, you know, they're failures in quotes again, but they're also the underdogs. Mm. And you desperately want them to prevail. Oh, yes. Always. The other thing is, I think, about, you know, everything, everything and everyone is fallible. Yeah. So you've got, over the way you've got MI5, MS6, whichever one it is, you know, and all the people there. And of course, they slip up, too. Mm. You know. And sometimes it's a case of, well, are our plucky underdogs going to win this, or is the big official machine going to get there first? Yeah. We always want, you're like, you're right, we always want the underdogs. Yeah. Sometimes even when the underdogs are the baddies. Because the thing is, Jackson Lam has got his own agenda. Yes. And it's not necessarily the same agenda as the people who are paying him to do what he's supposed to be doing. Off. But again, you know, they can't get rid of him. No. And to a certain extent, he doesn't necessarily protect his team, but he is protective of them, if anybody else. Yes. You know, he can have a go at them and make their life miserable. And nobody else is going to do that. That's like sibling thing, isn't it? I can punch me sister, but you're a lot punch, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you haven't watched the series and you've got Apple TV, there's two or three things on Apple TV that I believe they're filming series for. Oh no. Yes. It must be a good selling point for them though. Mustn't it? Things like that. They don't seem to have an awful lot, but they have some really good. Yeah. We're not a commissioner from Apple TV. Can I just say? All the Apple TV, if you want to, you know. If you want to sponsor the show, please get it. Yeah. That'd be really nice. Anybody that we promote in our show is just done because we, like. Yes. And by the way, we do not get any side financial reward. We talk about Porsche. Oh, the other thing is Mick Herron's other series. I think Zoe Boehm. I haven't read any of them. I will say they are going to be starting filming that with Emma Thompson in it. So we don't think of her. Zoe Boehm. I can't tell you anything about it. It was not read them. I have, I think I've got on Cemetery Road. Oh, yeah. I think she's a private investigator. So it won't be quite the same set. No. But there you go. There's the news where you are. Another one to watch. Potentially. But yes. So yeah. Should we talk about James Bond a bit? Yes. Everyone knows James Bond. Always talk about James. Yeah. Films or books? Oh, I've never read. Never read a book. Never read a flipping book. No, I've not. But we watched all the films. Yeah. I think I must have watched all the films. I haven't watched all the Daniel Craig ones. Oh, no. I think I've probably watched them all. No. I might have missed... It's escapism, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. The latest one. I really enjoyed no time to die. I have to say I thought that was a cracker. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Quantum of Solis. I'm like, that's three hours of my life. I'm never guessing that. Which is the one where he died. That was... But, but, but, but, but, but, spoilers. But he dies all the time, doesn't it? They're just bringing back all getting different. Yeah. We doesn't die all the time. He generally doesn't die. No, that's true. Yeah. There we go. Yeah. I've read the books. They're quite different. Did you say in the previous episode that they're not very long boots? They're not? No. They're... I always imagine them being like this thing. No. They're like... For those that can't see my fingers out three inches. I was about to say they're yay big, which of course is very helpful for you people listening to us. But, yeah, I'd say they're maybe 40 or 50,000. They're not, they're not long books at all. And the interesting thing was he was very inflaring. He was very, very involved in, you know, how it was going to be marketing. What the cover was going to look like. He had very definite ideas about that. Yeah. And he would fight his gore. No, it wasn't like, I'm just going to write these and let you get on with it. Because some of the comics... Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The original ones. Yeah. So, yeah. They're all deckery type. Yeah. All those, you know, those amazing kind of lurid 50s or 60s covers. Yeah. Yeah. Those ones as well. Red, with black on and things like that. Yeah. I mean, you read some of the films that have the same title as a short story, but, you know, the plot is completely different. Yeah. I mean, they're not all like that. Some of them are much closer. So, I think you only live twice as one of the closer ones. Yeah. They're not the kind of... they're not overblown in the same way as a lot of the films are. Yeah. You see what I mean. They don't jump the shark in the same way. No. I think that's quite interesting how an adaptation could be so very different. Oh, gosh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about this a bit before with Gras to Agatha Christie and very Ezekiel Poirot. Yeah. I mean, they had to make the films this spectacular event. And as we've said before about putting gadgets in, people love the gadgets. Yeah. And it feels like they've become something quite different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think they are. I think they probably lost any connection with the books that they've almost got a life of their own, aren't they? Yeah. You know, you expect Jane Bond to have car chases, the expectations. Few explosions. Terrible jokes, occasionally. Yes. Especially if you're watching a Roger Neil one. Yes. Yeah. The eyebrow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some sort of colorful villain. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Love interest, of course. Oh, yes. Sex interest, probably. Yeah. I was going to say there's not a lot of love in there, is there? No. No. The worst one when it got married, and that made me cry. That was Dijali Green Giant. No, it wasn't the John Di Green Giant. It was. Hang on. That's sweet. No. I tried to think of him. He only did one film, and he was, he did adverts for children to keep them safe. Dave Holmes. Green Cross Code. Green Cross Code Man, yes. Who was he? I can't remember. Was Prowse? No. No, I don't think it was. We'll have to go with it. Dave Prowse. Was it? Yeah. Our producer is intervening. Yeah. So we don't fight folks. That's what it is. He played Darth Vader. Yes, he did. He got in the suit. Yeah. Yeah. James Earl Jones did the voice, didn't the Darth Vader. But who was he and James Bond? Was he? He was. I have no idea. Which character are you thinking of, Carol? You know when people say they like it when we go off for one? I think this is perhaps our best one ever. Yes. James. We're all googling like mad now. Yeah. Now, while they're checking this out, let me just talk to you a little bit about my novella. Oh, absolutely. They go for it. Yeah. I mean, the most popular one was Sean Connery, I think. Of course, there aren't the spy stories that. Ah, he made his film debut in 1967. James Bond's spoof Casino Royale playing Frankenstein's Creature. There you go. Was he in a James Bond film? But I must admit, that's one I haven't seen. Was it a spoof though? It was. It was the David Niffen one, not the Daniel Craig one. She was amazing. Ah. He was in some sort of advert and he was a model. Yeah. So he was in one Bond film and that was it. That's all he ever did. Oh, yeah. I can't remember. I don't think he had a connection with Sweetcore. No. Don't think he did. That was amazing. Wow. Long. Anyway, tell us about your novella mic. You should call it up. Have you got a setting yet? Well, I've thought of this place as dilapidated building. Oh, really? Oh. Okay. Quite close to MI6 building. Yeah. Would it be someone in the Barbican? Yes, right. Yes. You've probably been there. Yes. I've been around the Barbican recently, actually. Yeah. Talk about it to espionage and spy through it. I can't believe that this is awful. I'm wondering now whether Carol is a top international spy because she's successfully deflected. Yeah. A perfectly good conversation. Sorry about that. Sorry about that. Spy thrillers with children in. Is it horrible? It's actually horrible. It's to be... Oh. Stormbreaker? Yes. Alex Ryder. Alex Ryder. Yeah. It was my nephew when he was 13, 14. Was fascinated with these. Oh, yeah. They were really popular. Yeah. Very popular. So I think it's a 13 or 14 year old boy who is a spy. A spy. Yes. I think it was... Am I right in thinking it was actually harmless? Yeah, it was, yeah. And then there's Charlie Hickson's young Bond books. Oh, I am. Which are more kind of young adults. Yeah. Those were good, scary in places. Yes. I read silver finels. But then again, I'm quite squeamish. So, you know, don't take me for, you know... I mean, sort of going off on a tangent, which I know is something. Yeah. We're talking about espionage. No, I was just about to go off on another tangent. You're supposed to be wanting to bring us back and we've got off on a swing call. You'll never live that one. Yeah. About YA young adult. Oh, yes. You know, you're saying it can be quite squeam. I've read a few young adult books and they really are. Very, very good. You know, I think you could read... I know they come with that young adult genre. But I think many of them, you could read as an adult. I'm never quite sure what pushes it into the YA genre rather than an adult. An adult. So, what do you think heroines young adults? I think the early ones start. They're kind of more middle grade. Yes. Yeah. I think the later works. I think the series kind of was meant to grow with the reader. Yeah. With the reader and it did get more violent and everything. When you think with those books, I can remember many youngsters at school, getting those early... They were the first Harry Potter books and they would have been about seven or eight avid readers. And when you think the last Harry Potter came out, what? Six, seven years later? Was it one a year almost? I'm not sure. Some of those seven year old started. Some of them sort of grew up with it. So, they were in that sort of teenage age. I think they were reading the later ones, which were more... Love Thursday. Yeah. And complete door stops. Yes. Yeah. I was going to say I think the later ones, perhaps in actually between writer Dylan and them being... Yeah. Because didn't you have to check into a hotel to finish off one of them? I think she just wasn't getting it finished. Yeah. I think I remember that. Yeah. Oh, poor woman. You're proud. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. With room service. Yeah. It was a hard life. Everyone wants to put me up in a hotel. Well, I finished my latest. Yeah. Well, somebody put me up in a hotel. I might start my novella. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Sorry for laughing. Yeah. Right. So espionage. What more can we say about it? I don't know. I think for the first time we are actually sort of almost running out of... I think we're good. I mean, I know somebody... Somebody who I have read once or twice. Oh. James Pattison. Yes. Oh, yes. A lot of his books come in under that umbrella of, you know, spies, espionage. Mm-mm. But he's a strange author. I've read a couple of his more detective books. Yeah. And they've been okay. But apparently he's one of the most borrowed books in libraries. Oh, okay. In the country. Yeah. I'm not sure. Why do you think that is? Do you think that's because there's a lot of that? I think it's because there's a lot of... Yeah. I suspect also, if you're the kind of reader who wants a very particular thing. Yeah. And you know that here's an author with an awful lot of books that I can work my way through. And that's what you like doing. Then, you know... I think they're an easy read. Mm-mm. I've never read once. Yeah. I can't read a couple of books. They're fast paced. Yeah. And I don't mean easy in a derogatory way. I just mean to... No. And an easy one to get into and to get through. Mm-mm. Yeah. Well, I think that there is a particular skill in writing a page-turn book that's, you know, a quick, easy read. And I think sometimes that's under-appreciated. Yeah. I mean, I've been reading a book just and it's... I'm not going to say which book it was. There's probably people out there who absolutely love it. It wasn't a crime read. So it's not really applicable to this. But it was supposed to be funny. And I think the thing with humour is sometimes it doesn't always land right. But it felt like it didn't have a plot. It just meandered. Yeah. And it took me ages to get through it because I think, well, I just don't know where this is going. And it just happened with no... Like, knitting with soup. Yeah. It was very lightness. And then, you know, it referenced the pandemic towards the end. And that was what really finished the book. Yeah. Right. And it was like, well, it wasn't anything the characters did. It was just, you know, life happened. Let's finish the book there. I mean, it felt very odd. And I think there is a particular skill to steering a reader through the book. That it's necessarily appreciated. Yeah. I think with spy and espionage, I think there's... For me, it goes into two teams. You've got the, like, tiktayla, the sort of spy work. There is a lot happening in the background. And, you know, there's information going on. And then you've got the sort of work that's happening. And people are being killed all the time. Yeah. And they're chasing. And, you know, the spies living in fear through his life and all the rest of it. Yeah. I mean, they're good. I enjoy them. I really do. But it's the ones where, you know, like, there's maybe a scientist and his family disappear. And they're saying to him, you know, you come and work for us and your family will be fine. You know that subtle threat that you've got with it. And then sort of, am I fine? I've got to come and find more. Am I sick? I've got to rescue them. That sort of thing. I do enjoy that side of it. Again, you're going back to things like spooks. That sort of thing would happen on a regular basis, wasn't it? Yeah. With spooks. I'm not sure how popular they are now. Well, the subtle ones. They're not the espionage. Oh, it's generally. Generally. I mean, slow horses does amazingly well from what I understand. Bond always does. Bond always does. Bond always does. Yeah. I mean, John McCarry. Obviously. Yeah. I mean, kind of a strange example, I suppose, has anyone read "Destination Unknown" by Agatha Christie? And that's sort of a bit espionage-y. And you have a woman who, I think, she's survived a crash, I think it is. And she's escaped with her life and she's quite depressed. And anyway, she gets kind of recruited to go and infiltrate. See, it's not really Christie, is it? No. It's going to infiltrate the setup in the desert, the scientific facility. Oh, which isn't like her. No. It's a really interesting book, but it doesn't read like an Agatha Christie at all. It's a funny one. Maybe it was one of the days when she was fed up with her. She was trying to write something kind of fashionable. Yeah, something different. Again, it's that sort of always it, then. It's it, then. Who could it be, sort of thing? I think a lot of Espier, it's the kind of not quite knowing who's on your side or what will happen and that uncertainty is sort of the copy there. Sorry, it could be that. And you've got all these things going on in your head. Hmm. That sounds interesting, actually. Do you think that the people that have been most successful at writing do have an intelligence background? Some of them have worked in the gut. William Fleming was. He worked in the position. Yeah. Am I five? John McCarry? Yeah. So, yeah. Possibly less so that, I mean, once upon a time, I would imagine it would be very difficult to do any research. And they'd have to be careful about what they printed because of the, for sure. Yeah. I mean, once upon a time, you would never know who the head of M.I.5 or M.I.6 were, but now everybody know who they are. Of course, now you've got like, people like Stella Remington, who's that novelist now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I must tell, mustn't it? Because if you, as I'm just speaking, you know, if you've got a background in a, in a certain field, that knowledge must help you. If you want to write a book, you know, and, and, and I know a lot of them, police officers will turn around and end up writing detective novels and things. So, and they'll be tired. Yeah. They're saying this, they're gorg, but they, you know, some of them are. Yeah. Yeah. Some of them really are. Going back to the uncertainty thing, I'm just kind of thinking through for myself, I suppose. I think part of being a successful spy is being able to kind of live with that and all those multiple things that might be going on and not giving the game away that you've got any idea of what it might be. Mm. And, you know, I'm just living my life here sort of thing and just being able to stay calm while, you know, anything could happen next. I'm always fascinated by the term sleepers. Yes. You know, we, we always associate it with Russian spies being in here, this country in America, but I'm sure there are sleepers from here and America somewhere in countries. Yeah. Yeah. Where they're living normal lives waiting to be woken up as a spy. But that's the fascination, isn't it? Because those lives are not normal in as much as being a spy or being a potential spy means that you have to live a lie. Mm. You have to be good at living a lie. And I sometimes think that people who have to live a lie for many, many years, great chunk of the life, then the difference between what's the truth, what's reality and what's there, the lie. Yeah. It must be a strange. It must all merge. Yeah. It must be a strange advancing it. They must have triggers for them. They must have, you know, sort of, I have visions that have been brainwashed before they placed as sleepers so that there's a trigger, you know, something, a word or something like that or a phrase. It's a bit like all the aliens. There's a living on the world now just waiting for that trigger before they all rise up. Yeah. Like in men and black. Yeah. It's a bit like AI. It's just waiting for the trigger before it takes over the world. Oh. I knew it. I knew it would come in there somewhere. Listening to a fascinating book at the moment. Talking about humour, which you were just now. Yes. You know, it's all about the time police set in the future. Okay. And their job is to stop anybody, apparently travelling back in time has become, had become quite the norm. Yeah. And it was causing all sorts of problems with history being mucked up. So they've got the time police whose job is to go and get hold of these people and lock them up. Who's it by? What's it called? Jodie Taylor. Ah, right. Yes. They're killing time. They're all something time. I'm on the second one. Yeah. I've seen the rabbits. It's humorous. Very, very humorous. Very light-hearted. The time police, to me, is the mum stood at the door when a child comes in and goes, "What time did you call her?" That's the time, please, to me. Indeed. So, I think that's, you've got a lovely sunset on your phone. Oh, yes. It's Crosby Beach. Oh, is it? Yeah. I thought it was one of the Crosby men there. I thought it was somewhere like, you know, Death in Paradise type places. That's very nice. Yeah. So there we go. Right. So we'll, we'll, we'll bring it to a close there. And then I hope you enjoy this episode. Please feedback if there's things that you'd like us to do, things you'd like to talk about. Within reason, obviously. We're prepared to look at that. And yep, if you want to hear more about Sweet Corn, we're gay. You're right. I'll never live that down. It's nearly as bad as the time when I organized a night out for people I work with and I ended up in the wrong town. They all ended up in the wrong store. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So definitely. See, I think this was some kind of master stroke on your part. I'd like to know what you were doing in that other town. Oh, yeah. What? You've misdirected everybody. Oh, this might be a good time to finish. I will. So I hope you enjoy this episode and we'll be back at same time next week. Bye, everyone. Bye. You have been listening to Only Murders in My Mind. A random thought production. Produced by John Bissett. The music in peril was composed and recorded by OM Studio Strings. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO]