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Really quickly, I need to thank my sponsor for the last several episodes of Under the Scales, Bullet Bourbon. They are a class act who made me feel like a podcasting pro, even though I'm still a small podcast by advertising standards. We hope to be able to announce further future projects with Under the Scales, Osiris and Bullet, as those are in the works. I've said it before, but it's true, Bullet Bourbon is the only bourbon in my house. If you come over and want bourbon, it's gonna be bullet. Check out the best tasting bourbon out there, online at bullet.com spelled B-U-L-L-E-I-T. Thanks, Bullet. - All right, so I'm here with Tom and I've sort of flipped the mic on Tom 'cause I'm interviewing you for your podcasts. - Yeah, in fact, you didn't let me say welcome to Under the Scales, but it's okay. I'm here with RJ and my good friend RJ B, who's the helping friendly pod voice that you might recognize, but also co-founder of Osiris with me, and that reminds me, Under the Scales is a proud member of the Osiris family of podcasts. If you enjoy this podcast, go to OsirisPod.com and check out other music and culture podcasts. How'd I do, RJ? - Pretty well, all right. - Your best. - Okay, good. Because there's a legal requirement, we have to say that. - Yeah, are you gonna jail? (laughing) - You're gonna wanna go to jail. - So on this important occasion, and I don't think we have the date exactly right, but roughly 20 years ago, what happened, RJ? - Well, October 27th, 1998, the story of the ghost album was released on Electro Records. And you and I started talking a few months ago about talking about maybe the lyrics and looking back at the album 20 years later, amazing material that's still obviously in rotation today, and I wanted to kind of talk to you about it. - It's just got this really good progression and a really great sound. - Well, so maybe we can talk a little bit of time about, just from my perspective as a fan, during this time when "Story of the Ghost" came out in 1998, this was incredible peaks for fish, and at the same time you and Trey were writing, I mean dozens and dozens of songs that ended up on "Story of the Ghost", "Farmhouse", the "Sick of Disc", and then "Tremple by Lambs", of course, was sort of a lot of outtakes, which still holds up today. I guess my first question is just, what was the songwriting process like? At that point, when you guys were 97, 98, I assume fish was on the road more. I know you had just had kids, Trey had just had kids. It seemed like you guys were producing a lot of material given all the things you all had going on in your lives. - Yeah, absolutely. There's probably 20 questions in there that you just asked me. But yeah, so 93 and 96, my kids were born. And so there were things keeping me home, things keeping me off the road, things keeping me from writing music with Trey as much as I would like. But let me set the scene a tiny bit differently. So Trey and I, when we were back in Princeton Day School era, we would write songs in his dad's basement or in one of our basements, and we would strive to multi-track. So that would be, we would come up with an original song, lay down a track, often bass or guitar. And then we would add the next instrument often, and then we would sing and add harmonies to that. So leaving a whole lot of history behind because we don't have time for that right now. Trey lived in Vermont and I lived in New Jersey. And the way that we wrote was I would send him lyrics and he would create and craft the song entirely himself. Often he would call me for suggestions. Hey, Tom, this doesn't work so well. Could you give me another verse here, that kind of thing. Or did you really mean for this to be the chorus and do you mind if I switch up from this other poem that you sent? Do you mind if I toss this in here, that kind of thing? After a while, Trey would just sort of kind of liberally grab stuff from different poems. Every now and then, he would tweak where I thought maybe that poem was meant to stay together. And then he would respect it. And similarly, rarely would he ever have to sort of rebuke me. We had this like open forum, no ego always. So that was like writing by the phone. And we always wanted to get back to the place that we had started, which was writing in the same room with the multi-track where I'm pressing pause record and Trey's playing the instruments and I'm supplying the lyrics. And when we're in the same room, we write really well. So if you can think of the album progression, Lawn Boy, I had three songs on. And then it was Picture of Nectar, I had four songs on. And then this amazing thing happened with Riff to this like proliferation of creativity. I was always just writing constantly. I give the creative credit to Trey 'cause his music style varied so much and changed and everything. And somehow he was able to, out of my weird lyrics, create an album which was a concept album and held together even though I didn't know that he was crafting it. - My favorite fish album. - Oh really? Still, okay. Well that's an amazing thing. And then after that followed, Hoist. Hoist had this song called Life Boy on it where I think Trey and I finally realized just by virtue of how many phone calls back and forth that took to write that song that we got to be in the same room because we were virtually in the same room by technology. Why don't we actually just get in the same room? So that began the impetus to write songs together. So Trey booked a vacation in the Cayman Islands. We both had our scuba certificate and we went to the Cayman Islands and we wrote a lot of the songs that wound up on Billy Breeze. And including Theme From The Bottom, we scuba dove all day and then came home and wrote and understandably there's a water theme to that one. So our heads were now churning. Fish was like igniting into the solar system and beyond into space as a band and learning from each other and how to play together really incredibly like unlike any other band. And I think Trey's drawing on me and pushing me to be more creative lyrically kind of hit this really amazing peak right when we were in three farmhouse sessions and every one of those songs is on trampled by lambs and pecked by the dove. Some never made it into fish songhood at all. But for the most part, if you look at that track listing and I think there's 25 or 26 songs on there, a lot of the songs make up the contents of Story of the Ghost and Farmhouse. Yeah and by the way, that's a good, it's still a good listen. They're like, it has like a nice rustic feel to it. And trampled by lambs. Yeah. I think it's amazing. So trampled by lambs and pecked by the dove, you might be able to get it like on Amazon or something or Spotify, I'm not quite sure. But I know on live fish that you can get. That's where I listen to. Yeah, you can get the whole collection together. And those songs, thank you for saying that. The thing about those songs is that's how we wrote. We did the entire song. We completed the entire song. We were completists and so we wanted to finish. And so when you hear various songs on there, like Brian and Robert are waiting in the velvet sea, it's like we had all the parts already done in it. And that's something that people don't often know. So Tom, I got some input on these questions from Jonathan and Matt from H.F. Pod. And one question they had was, this is sort of a combination of a couple of questions, but the lyrics that you hear on the story of the ghost songs are a little bit more dark, a little bit more spiritual, a little bit more haunting. They feel different than what you heard on Billy Breeze or the stuff on Hoist or before. I'm just curious, was that reflective of where you guys, you and Trey were, you were at the time? Or was that just how it played out, I guess? Interesting. I think some of the concept album aspect of Rift sort of told this story kind of a little bit of a macabre version of a relationship gone afoul. And it struck something in me, I think, from my past. And I thought, you know, those places were like maze and rift where some of this kind of complex imagery, but sort of like a dark place of a chasm that you're looking into or people watching you fail. I think came from my dad used to read to me Edgar Allan Poe and we would love sort of the dark. I don't think you have to be a dark person to enjoy opening up the dark side of your brain, you know what I mean? And so because of Rift, it sort of gave me a little bit more license to sort of go there. Of course, then Billy Breeze happened and we were like happy like scuba diver beach goers, so it didn't really come out there. But yeah, and then simultaneously for Story of the Ghost and some of those sessions, I think I did draw more heavily on that side of my brain. Also Emily Dickinson is a huge, she had this like obsession with death and her death in particular. Right. And it comes through in the most unbelievably artistically beautiful haunting way and I kind of strove for that. And you know, if that comes through even 2% then I feel like mission accomplished, but specifically the song Ghost and I've told this before, it reflects sort of an experience in my childhood, you know, or it reflects my childhood where I kind of felt like I was tapping into and I'm not religious at all and I also don't really call myself that spiritual apart from this sort of period of my life where I was actually invoking, I was actually talking to some entity and it was actually helping me get through life. Wow. Briefly. Is that in this house that we're sitting in now? Yes. You can go to the room where the spirit. Terrific. Yes. So and I called it my spirit, right? And you know, I'm going to fast forward through this because I've told it before, but basically I found the person in 8th grade at Princeton Day School and Trey knows him. Is it my friend Phil di Minaglia? He housed my spirit and proved that he did. It's very, very strange, it's really bizarre, but that's what the song Story of the Ghost is about and I wanted to tell Trey that complex narrative and the only way I kind of could, like I feel I've never told you the story of the ghost, is really me trying to explain that to my good friend Trey about my other good friend Phil. And it ended up as one of the funkiest anthems of fish. And like songs like, you know, Brian and Robert and Wading and a couple others, I can hear now that Emily Dickinson and Edgar Allan Poe influences with, you know, loneliness and sort of solitude and loss and, you know, that sort of stuff. It's cool that you're able to kind of tap into that and you don't hear that in the songs you've written more recently. Your songs more recently are a little bit more like looking, almost looking back on your, what's happened thus far and what lies ahead. That's my interpretation anyway, but we can save that for another time if you want. Yeah, sure, let's save that for another time. That's interesting that you've analyzed it in that way. Yeah, so we should get into more detail in the story of the ghost, both the writing and recording of it. Is there anyone you think we should bring into the conversation that might have some particular perspectives on this? I could talk a lot about the story of the ghost and I could talk about the two days that I was at Beresville when they were recording it. But there's someone whose phone number I have and who's a good friend of mine who knows so much more about it. So let's call up Trey and see if he's willing to talk about it. Let's do it. Hey Trey, so it's Tom, how are you? How's it go? And I'm here with my friend RJ, whom you know from Osiris and also you know from the Helping Friendly podcast. Hey RJ. Hey Trey, nice to talk to you. Thanks for taking the time. So nice to talk to you. So Trey, we wanted to congratulate you on the 20th anniversary of the story of the ghost. And that's why RJ is here in Princeton with me right now. He's been interviewing me and asking me a couple of questions and it rapidly became apparent that why not just call a person that knows so much more about it than I do? Sure, I'd love to. By the way, I had no idea that it had been 20 years, which is... It's amazing, right? So thank you for telling me that. You're welcome, 1998, 20 years ago. We had some amazing fun in an incredibly prolific period and it hasn't stopped yet. Thank goodness. Yeah. That was a very fun period. Amazing. Incredibly fun for me and you Tom too. Really, really fun. Everybody. Yeah, life changing and it keeps changing, which is incredible and keeps morphing for the better, which is unbelievable. So RJ has the first actual official question. So why don't we start there and see what happens? That's great. Yeah, so I want to get both of your takes on this, but maybe starting with you Trey, you guys were just referred to this as sort of a prolific period. I know that some of the stuff that was written during some writing sessions in '97 ended up on Story of the Ghost, but that was sort of the tip of the iceberg from what I understand. You guys had tons of songs that ended up on Farmhouse and then outtakes on Trample by Lambs and a lot of stuff that didn't make it on albums. This is just incredibly productive time for you guys. Fish was getting much more popular. You guys seem to be hitting creative peaks both on stage and in songwriting. I'd love to get your take on sort of what that was like at that time. Yeah, it was an incredibly exciting time. I actually was thinking before you guys called it was also I got married in '94 and we had our first child in '95. We had our second child in '97 and Tom, you and I were writing so much. We started going on these songwriting trips and the three that we did in 1997 were two. We rented a farmhouse and we went to three different weekends and wrote a whole lot of songs. They all are documented on that Trample by Lambs and Peck by the Dove album, which was by the way never intended to be an album or intended to be heard by anyone. So we didn't put any effort to make it a sound good or anything. It was just actual documents of us writing the songs. And what happened after that was we went in. We were going to go in in 1998 to do 'Story of the Ghost' and shortly before we went in, I wanted to kind of extend the same fun to the three guys in the band because me and Tom had just been like writing so many songs. We wrote in those farmhouses. We wrote bug and twist and heavy things and farmhouse and limb by limb. And it was a very prolific time. There are dozens of songs that came out of those. Dozens. And so before we went in for 'Story of the Ghost', there were sort of two main ideas thrown out to the between the band guys. The first was to go back to another farmhouse with just the four band members. So we rented a, it was the fourth farmhouse weekend. We rented a farmhouse because I wanted to make sure that everybody had a chance to write together. It wasn't just me and Tom. And we took this book of sort of lyrics and sketch ideas that Tom had. It was sort of a document of some conversations between him and our friend Scott Herman. And also just poems that Tom had written. So Scott Herman and I at AT&T had all this documented and saved in email. And so Scott put it in a database. And then we like deleted a whole bunch of really, really horrible like stuff. But also also all our email about, you know, where do you want to meet for lunch? And what was left, we actually put in a book called The Salamander Prince, which is a character in one of the poems that was in the book. And then we gave that to you. Right. And so I had been writing previous to the farmhouse and the trip that preceded Billy Breeze, which we went to the Cayman Islands. And we wrote Waste and Cayman Review and all that stuff with Tom and I in the same room. But previous to that, because in '94, we hadn't been able to spend as much time together as we had since we were in fifth grade. I was using The Salamander Prince to write songs, sometimes taking one line from a poem and combining it with another one. It was very free flowing, you know what I mean? Or adding lyrics or something. So what happened after Tom and I had these three amazing weekends in the farmhouse, I asked Beth Montori, who works in our office, to rent one more farmhouse before we went in to do Story of the Ghost. And it was this guy Devo, rented us his farmhouse, Devo's farm. And we went in there with the same setup that Tom and I always had. A teeny little drum set, a little mini keyboard and an 8-track machine. And we sat around the four of us writing songs and there was a couple that came out of that that ended up on Story of the Ghost that I absolutely love from that session. One of them is Meat and one of them is Rogay. Incredible. And Frankie says. Frankie says and Shaftie, which was actually on I think Treble by Lands by Peck by the Dove. That was kind of already written by Tom and I, but we just changed the groove. The thing about Rogay and the thing about Meat is they both kind of exemplify what was going on between the four band members in that farmhouse. Because we had one mic, right? We had this book. So, you know, we get this little groove going. It's very small, like just like doo-doo-doo-doo. And then, you know, would throw the mic at fish and he would kind of flip through the book or something and like pull out a line. The circus is the place for me and then he'd like throw the mic, you know, with bears and clowns and no, I didn't throw the mic at me and I would like add a line. And then it was the idea was trying to, I think there was a real conscious effort at that right at that moment to fan the flames of the group mind group think concept. It was in the writing and the playing, all of it was very, very conscious effort at that time to push that feeling of this like tapestry sound of the band with layered vocals and stuff. I love the way that you describe that and I don't think anyone has ever heard that before. But one of the things that does, that you can see if you go to Wikipedia or if you have a copy of "Story of the Ghost" is every single song is a collaboration. There's not just one that's just Anastasia or McConnell or Gordon or Fishman. Every single thing and a lot of them, more than half, there's 14 songs on the album, eight of them are full band collaborations, which is amazing. There's one other thing that was happening that 97, so 97 was a really good year for Tom and I. We wrote a lot of songs that I still love in those farmhouses. 97 was also a really good year for the band. I thought we were playing well and kind of breaking through. I think we all did. So the two things that we did before we went into "Story of the Ghost" were one, the four band members recreated the thing that Tom and I had been doing since, to be perfectly honest, since before there was a fish. So we wrote together in the farmhouse, which resulted in reggae and meat. And then the other thing we did was we set up in Studio A of "Bearsville" and decided that we would just jam for like four or five days before we even met our engineer or got going on the album. It was just to sort of try to bring the live feeling into a recording process. So a lot of those jams, 90% of what happened in those jams really ended up being the sicket disc. One of the jams is still one of my favorites from that jam session before "Story of the Ghost" which is what's the use, which I still love. That's a beautiful song back to that time. It's one of my favorites. It's a great one that's a fan favorite and no one knows it had words. It did have words for a while, but then they went away. Yeah, I have to say, Trey, it's amazing to me every time you guys play it live because I get to see it from the opposite perspective that you see it. The quiet parts, everyone is completely silent. And I don't know if you can tell from the stage, but during what's the use, it's Madison Square Garden, Kurt, Magnet Ball, whatever it is, it's completely quiet and I think that's really cool. I love that. I think I can feel it more than trying to hear it. Anyway, that was the process kind of going in. It's wonderful. It's wonderful and it made a completely interestingly unique album just completely born of collaboration and that was the intent going in and it's apparent and it's wonderful and fish is a collaborative band in every respect. And so this in a way is a portrait of fish from the studio, which is so cool. I think that's true, Tom. It was also involved, of course, you and also, like I said, that organic, you know, when we write together, you have always had a totally open philosophy about any kind of editing or rewriting or line, adding or paragraph adding from my end. Yeah. And it would be probably hard to explain what happens like in that farmhouse when we write together or in that, you know, in that house by the beach, right, plays something like that. But to me, it's just like so unique and special because we've been doing it our entire life. And what often ends up happening is that we'll come in and you'll come in with poems and I'll come in with like three prepared, you know, like, you know, chord progressions at beats. And then we'll start, we'll write a song and then it loosens up and then we'll write another song. And then by the end, like for Blaze on, we're both standing up, screaming at each other and just laughing like falling over and just like, leaping around. It's like a jam. You know what I mean? Amazing thing. Our album, we have a listening party at the end and we, one of the big things that we've talked about this before, I believe, but Trey, one of the reasons we only have eight tracks, you know, we could have 64 digital tracks. We could have unlimited digital tracks if we wanted to. One of the reasons we do eight is because it makes us think very hard, leave room for that last harmony, leave room for that guitar solo, leave room for the drums, Trey wants to, you know, put an extra percussion, you know, and so if it were unlimited, we probably would just never, ever finish a song. But this way, we move on and when we do, we really move on. We don't listen to it for the whole session until the very end. When all the songs are done, we have a listening party and that's exactly what Trey's talking about, where we are literally screaming in laughter and delight, like, oh my God, I completely forgot about this song. And a lot of them are like, you know, the ones that come out of the vapor always seem to be the best ones. Like an example of that would be, the last time we did a session, we wrote a bunch of songs. And then right at the end, we're like fooling around with this groove. I had this idea for, well, it's for everything's right. Oh, yeah. And then I was like, Tom, I was like, what do you, like, what do you really feel? You had a pad, remember? And you like wrote a couple of lines down and like, I started yelling out a couple of lines and you wrote that great line about the mirror secrets up losing my hair. Yeah. And it was all just like, like reality and fast. And the two of us were like, you know, we were banging on the kitchen pots and pans and, you know, like opening up in the, you know, it's all because of the way that we've been doing this our whole life. It never feels like we're actually writing a song. Like until it's, until like you said, we have the listening party at the end and you're like, oh my God, that actually is a song. I thought it was just like, hi. And I got to tell you this too, because I just was thinking about it. There's one really crazy example of that on Story of the Ghosts. And what's that? Which is that? Well, there's a line that fish sings. Okay. And it's in meat. Right. And this is how, this is how I just felt like my heart stopped beating. Yes, which is he goes like, and that was like in your notes. Yes. Right. Yeah. But, but it was so like, we're doing meat and it's like three different things all combined. There's like, if I had a host of ghosts, which is kind of like from one. And the other guys are going, and then there's, yeah, then there's that one. And then, and then fish goes, I just felt like my heart stopped beating. I just thought that you heard me laughing. Why'd you put the pillow on it? Yeah. Which is actually with you and I were like 15 years old, or I don't know, 16 or something. Yes. And like, we had taken mushrooms. Yes. At your dad's house. And no, he was trying to call me. And you're over here at my house and we're in the living room. And we're like in the middle of this songwriting thing, which I think I'm actually sure was I am hired. Yes. It was like, we were like, you were playing the keyboard and I was playing the guitar and we were writing, I am hydrogen. And then, but we were kind of, you know, a little, you know, in a funny headspace. And then the phone started ringing and I didn't want to answer it. And it was like the phone in the beginning of Chinatown that Jack Nicholson movie, it just doesn't stop ringing. And you know, you have to answer it eventually. The more it rang, the more I thought it was like a tragedy that I didn't want to deal with. We were having so much fun writing writing. So I kept calling the pillows on it. And then that moment was, I just felt like my heart stopped beating. I thought you heard me laughing. Yeah. You know, why'd you put the pillow on it? And then I thought like years later, Fishman was singing it in meat. Wow. So it was like one songwriting session, cross talking with another songwriting session. The reason that story is like so cool is because that really describes the entire, like, fish community of collaboration. It's such a, like, such a bizarre high level of, of like, tapestry of collaboration. You know, I like stuff you guys are doing it work. And the whole thing is just incredible. So I totally agree. It's the epitome, almost, you know, that, that a session can, can bleed into another session and then Fishman can grab it and it makes perfect sense in the song. Meat is amazing. It all makes sense. It's really, anyway. Well, that's a long one. Trey, I would be an irresponsible fish fan if I didn't say that you slightly underestimated the 97 sort of playing. When you said, I think we were playing pretty well back then because that's, that remains many of our, you know, favorite, one of our favorite times as, as fans. So it's cool to hear how that came together and how that influenced songwriting and vice versa because it does seem fairly symbiotic in a lot of ways. Well, thank you so much. We were the good people. Yeah. All of us longtime fans, we knew that afterburners had come on in 97. It ignited. Everything was changing and yet we were really lucky that we had you and me had gone on that Cayman trip and realized the benefits of writing together. And that started our new era of writing because prior to that, I mean, we had a really good album with Rift, but that was done completely separately. Right. And, and, you know, I would write the lyrics and send them to you. And hoist. And hoist completely separately. And I think, believe it or not, on hoist, I think it was life boy where you and I realized like we just called each other 30 fucking times to write that one song. We should really be doing this in person like we used to in the old days. Well, yeah, I remember writing life boy. We, we called each other 30 times in one day. Yeah. Like every day. Yeah. Like I kept calling you back and like we were just, but it was cool. It was crafting and amazing. But you're right. And then, and then it's true. Since then, I think we've kind of made a point to be together. We would go, you know, someplace where we could just be alone and maybe be outside by nature. There were a lot of times we would pick our places because of nature. And, and like, you know, like the farmhouse night, we, you know, we got there and the northern lights were out. I had never seen the northern lights and you had never seen the northern lights. And we opened that sliding glass window. It's beautiful old farmhouse. And we were just like singing what was actually happening. Like it wasn't even a, the two of us, you know, and the one that I remember from that is on story to ghost that just, God, because we chose remembering it, that was when we were in that other farmhouse and we had, it was the same night we wrote twist and velvet sea, right? Right. And we were in that, there's like bags of chips all over the place and junk food and our little fender amp and two of us just staying up for three stroke days and just kind of writing, writing, writing. And you would play this little thing on the piano. And then all of a sudden we were standing next to each other and we had been writing for three days. Like, so we, that always felt like a, like a, like a cocoon, like just the most loving cocoon that we were in. And the two of us were going with one microphone holding it, you remember this? We're like, I've been waiting in the velvet sea. I do. I've been waiting in the velvet sea. And then you sang that lead vocal. And it was like my favorite memory because, I mean, I love that song so much. And I don't know how much of it is because it's connected to that memory, but it was such a like a verbal description of what we had been doing. Like locked in the darkness, you know, just writing music, just writing music and writing music and writing music together. And one song after another. And it was like all of a sudden we're standing there doing those backup harmonies. And that song, again, it felt like it just kind of emerged. Yeah. Anyway, that's, that's on the record. Yeah. That's on Story of the Ghost. Absolutely. Yeah. I have tears in my eyes, Trev, from you telling me this. So one of those sessions was Ghost. Let's start right at the top. The song, Story of the Ghost. I feel I've never told, I've never told you the story of the Ghost. And I really, I really wanted to tell you. And that's how I told you in lyrics. Yeah. Yeah. We were, we had written that one somewhere. And I think you had written that about your friend. Filled him in audio. But I always tried to, I feel think about my own thing. So like, I always liked the two perspective thing. I think some of the kind of editing, wouldn't be editing would be the right words, but the pushing and nudging back and forth that I think has always worked. I always thought, and I've always still, I remain thinking this, that if I know what I'm singing about, like, Mary was a friend, I, they'd say is my friend Mary Johnson. It wasn't written. It's not Mary Johnson. It's about somebody else. But to me, it is. Yeah. So I figure if there's two different perspectives, then the fan, you know, something, the third listener, it will then have, will have an easier time creating ownership. And I know both you and I have often talked about trying to keep things from being completely nailed down. Oh, yeah. We don't spoon feed musically or lyrically, but also the amazing thing is what you just referred to is, you know, and I think everyone would think that you and I have a solid vision of what that song's about when we come out, at least the two of us. Right. And we don't. Because we even have our own interpretation, which is amazing. I think we try to push it that way. Yeah. So anyway, starting the ghost, I want to say one other side thing about story that goes on, starting the ghost, the first track, is that we got to work with Andy Wallace as the guy who mixed and engineered that record. He's, he is an incredibly talented guy that we wanted to work with all four of us because he had engineered and mixed. Never mind. He had engineered and mixed, most importantly, slayer, rain and blood. And and also that I'm graced by Jeff Buckley. We're huge fans of his. And so I, I always thought that it was a really great sounding first track. I mean, I like the way the bass sounds a lot. And. (Music) I feel like I never told you. The story of the ghost. I think like right when the album kind of starts off, it's got this cool. Everybody in the band is kind of part of a machine. That was something that we were really discovering in 1997. And I thought that track did a pretty good job reflecting what we were kind of into at that time. How fun. You know, Vermont. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and the same thing on birds and feather, you can hear it on that too. Well, there we go. Check it, check it, check it, check it, check it, check it, check it, check it, check it. Oh, you know what I mean? Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. And, and Andy was great. He was very, very helpful in getting that sound. (Music) It was definitely kind of a cool hang. You know, we had set up and jammed in that big incredible studio. And we were living there. We were all living at the studio at the time. And, and it was, you know, a lot of laughing in the, in the, in the control room and, and hanging out kind of late. And, and so I think he was into that. One of the, one of the things about Andy though, is that he mixes incredibly quietly. Like, as do all the great mix engineers I've ever worked with. Like Elliot Shiner. And I'm talking about, I'm not, I'm not talking about kind of quiet. I'm talking about, you can't even hear that the speakers are on kind of quiet. Wow. I think that's what he was saying. That's how you make something like slayer, random blood sound heavy. You know, they, they make it super quiet and then they get everything sitting in the perfect place. And then when you crank it up, it sounds amazing. Wow. Okay. Didn't know that stuff. It's a little unsatisfying in the moment. Like, can I hear that? Birds is the first one that is a full band collaboration, Birds of a Feather. And very collaborative. Very collaborative. That one, that one was, that was really fun to do. I always kind of like the guitar solo on that album version. It's a little bit weird. Yeah. And it's some strange horn, horn writing on the outro too. Do you, can I like? Trade, do you remember what you were listening to at the time? Is there anything that sticks out in terms of influences at that time? Or was it, were you listening to a lot of different stuff? The biggest influence I'm going to, that just popped into my head, was probably King Sonny Ade, Synchro system. Which, if you haven't heard that record and you're listening to the podcast, I would totally just download it or get it on Spotify. They came to Burlington in the 80s and Fish and I went together to see them and stood in the front row and like danced like crazy. But there's 21 people in the band and it's, and it's a, it's that tapestry of sound layered thing. Wow, cool. And it really changed my life. Probably more than any other concert I've ever seen. And I, I put that album on in recording studios so many times with engineers and track and said, this is what I, this is what it should sound like. It's kind of was the model for tap too. It's just like a lot of people playing small parts that fit together. So that was probably the biggest influence. Awesome. I'm sure I was playing that for Andy. That's amazing. That's amazing. Moving on, we have meat came after birds. Love meat. I love meat. ♪ If I ever ghost about a camera ♪ ♪ I fly in on my street ♪ ♪ I drive, I just drive ♪ ♪ I stay as life ♪ ♪ Just like an offer in the sun ♪ ♪ If I ever wish to risk ♪ ♪ 'Cause I live on my street ♪ ♪ I try to love it's right ♪ ♪ I stay on my bike ♪ ♪ I offer them some meat ♪ ♪ I love it. I love it. ♪ I love that that Mike sings it and says I am a prince. I have it all. I hear your footsteps through the wall. Yeah, I wait in silence for your call. Then take a shot and watch your fall. That's what it is. Good stuff. Oh, you know, you have to interpret it as you will. Yeah, exactly. I take a shot, meaning I'm. Oh, whiskey. I make an attempt. I take a shot. He actually has a basketball hoop in his living room. And then, of course, Gayudie, one of your, you know, you sort of revive the long tray, completely written out, experimenting with classical songwriting in Gayudie. Yeah. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ There's, I guess there's all, there's often one of those. ♪♪ I kind of write that way for, I have another one right now that I'm in the middle of, actually, that I'm kind of psyched about. But I write that way for joy. Right. Meaning, that's just what I do. It left to my own devices. Yeah. You know, I would write divided sky, or you enjoy myself, or Gayudie, or, you know, petrocor, like the easiest, it comes to me more easily than anything else said. Often, you write it for more instruments than are in fish. And I always kind of like hearing the version with strings, and horns, and all this stuff. And then, hearing how it's resolved on stage with four musicians. It's awesome. Awesome. What, often, what happens for me when that happens? This is just a funny thing. The moment that excites me is the addition of the incredible John Fishman. Like, petrocor, and time turns elastic. We're both completely charted out. Completely, utterly charted out. I even had a demo made that if you heard it, it's almost identical to what's on the record. All the parts, keywords based, everything. Except for one thing. The incredible John Fishman. The astounding John Fishman. So, you kind of add that to the picture. I'm just, I'm in a band with him, but I'm his biggest fan. I'm telling you, I get standing next to him every night. And, you know, like, you know, the drumming, if you listen to the album version of, there's this one bit in the middle of petrocor, where it sounds like, like, it reminds me of sort of Adam Hart mother by Pink Floyd, where it's like, done, done, done, done, done, done, done, done. [Music] [Music] Totally. So, maybe I just write those really long things just so that I can hear John Fishman play. Maybe that's it, maybe that's it. Train is no other reason. You've always told me two things about John Fishman. And one of them is, "Best drummer in the world." "By far." And you always add "by far." And the other one is, "If you watch him play, his shoulders don't move." His whole torso doesn't move. He's just like a lactopus. It's incredible. It's very strange to watch. Yep. He's not, like, lots of drummers get on there and they look like they're doing, like, calisthenics, you know. If not, not Fishman. He also plays, he plays the drums like a musical instrument, not like something he's whacking on. Do you know what I'm trying to say? He's not beating them to death. Yes. And if you listen to great jazz drummers, they play the drums like that. They get a big sound with a light touch. Well, less people think we're beating the subject to death. Let's move on a little bit. And that's my fault. Not yours, try. I really love hearing what you have to say. But we have now only talked about four songs and there's another ten. So, Ficus, it's a band collaboration song. I put a star next to it. So Ficus was one, again, my lyrics, but you guys wrote in that jam session. Yes. We wrote that at Davos Bar. That was one of the first ones we did at Davos. Ficus was probably number one. It's one of the ones I found on Wikipedia that I think I say something that comes off as an insult about it. And I didn't really mean it that way. And I think if I say it this way, it's true that maybe another song could have replaced it. I just, I just remember. I said that on Wikipedia because we both said it. My name is written there as one. Oh, it was probably you. I mentioned something that was like it. It was dumb, it was totally dumb. But I did say, here's something that still is true. I listened to that album, the CD in my car. And I used to commute almost an hour each way. I listened to that CD story that goes probably more than any CD I've ever heard. Ficus, I hate to say it. Ficus and Shaftie were one touch skips for me because right after that was limb by limb. So I went from Guy Judy and then skip Ficus, skip Shaftie. I hate to say it, although I'm a co-writer. So I'm allowed to say it. Well, there's two things to say about that. And I'll just chime in on the ficus thing. Okay. First of all, part of the reason that you skipped over Shaftie is because we had already recorded some of this pool. [MUSIC] Are you tired of being tired? Are you ready to get eight hours of unbroken? If you answered yes to either of those questions, today's sponsor may be able to help. Sunset Lake CBD is a hemp farm up in Vermont, making CBD products designed to help you get better sleep. As a former dairy farm that produced dairy and cream for another Vermont staple, Ben and Jerry's, Sunset Lake CBD is no stranger to quality ingredients or standing behind their products. In fact, Sunset Lake tests every product for potency and purity and puts the results online for all to see. They'll even mail you a copy with your order. That includes all their nighttime products. Sunset Lake carries gummies, tinctures, and soft gels designed to help you get to sleep gently and naturally. I'm someone who tends to think a lot when I lay down to go to bed, so often I'll take a sleep gummy about an hour before I need to go to sleep. The combination of CBD, CBN, and melatonin really helps me fall asleep right when I want to. Sunset Lake CBD is offering our listeners 20% off all orders. Visit SunsetLakeCBD.com and use the code "undermine" at checkout. Sleep sound knowing that they stand behind their products. Sunset Lake CBD, farmer-owned, Vermont, grown. Hi, this is Henry Kay, host to the #1 Music History podcast, Rootsland. Come with me on a journey to Kingston, Jamaica, where we explore the world of reggae music and the untold stories of some of the genre's greatest legends, from the ghettos and tenement yards where the music was born, to the island's iconic recording studios. We are so excited to team up with Osiris Media, the leading storyteller in music. Because as you'll hear, sometimes the story is the best song. I know you probably kind of like, this is just Olivia's pool with a different drum beat. You know what I mean? So that was probably our dipping Mattel into the water of the Davos farmhouse. But for me, I actually have a really loving found place for Ficus. It cracks me up and again, it brings me back to how fun it was writing and sitting there with Mike in the farmhouse and all writing together. I think what was hard, and this story is probably important to be told, was that when we walked in to do the album, "Story of the Ghost," there's always a whiteboard on the wall. The whiteboard, you know, a magic eraser board, and you write down all the potential songs. There's always about 18, and they slowly get cut. If anybody has a problem with one of them or something. So Fish has a grand tradition of cutting what some people might think of the best songs. Last album, "Mercury Got Cut." I don't know if everybody likes it. That's just me speaking. I particularly do like it. Moore was cut, and I made them put it back on. That was from the last album. But the thing about "Story of the Ghost" was that since we had just come out of the farmhouse, let me say, twist, farmhouse, bug, dirt, heavy things. And I think there was one more. We're all on the whiteboard for "Story of the Ghost." Piper. Piper, too? Piper, yes. And I still think there was one more. Wow. I think if I looked at the list, I could find it. Along with all the songs, it made it on "Story of the Ghost." So one by one of those ones got cut. And I remember feeling my heart went bug got cut. I was coming. Oh, it was just like, oh my God, it just stabbed me. And then when "Twists" got cut, it was like, oh my God. But it was really important to all four of us at that time that we make an album that was co-written by everybody. And to be perfectly honest, I think it was and still is way more important than those other songs ended up. I mean, it was fine. It was OK. But you know what I'm trying to say? So that's kind of why "Ficus" was written by all four of us. Right. And "Twists" was written by me and you. Right. And I would almost go as far as to say that I was pushing that agenda more than anybody, because I was a little bit almost like, "I don't know if "Inbarris" is the right word. But I know when we were doing "Hoyst," I had so many songs that you and I had written. And there just weren't a lot of other songs available at that point in time by the other band. And I was like, it wasn't like a gang up thing. As soon as Paige started writing songs, they all end up on records now. You know what I mean? He just didn't bring any to the table. And so "Wolfman's Brother" kind of has a co-written credit on "Hoyst," I think that was the one. But it wasn't really. You and I wrote that song. But it just looked weird that all these songs were by me and you. And I think that by the time we got the story of the ghost, it was like the most important thing, just as it was before "Fuego" too, where "Fuego" was another one. We're like, we're going in and we're writing together. You know, the four of us are going to sit down with pads. We're going to write together. And there's room for all the songs to emerge. So all the songs that got cut from "Story of the Ghost" ended up six months later being recorded up at the bar and for "Farmhouse." It just ended up being two albums instead of one, you know? And in that sense, you know, some of the kind of quieter, weird things that the four of us did together with your lyrics on "Ficus" were my favorite things. Like, I love "End of Session." Love. And we wrote that together. Yeah. So I wouldn't rather have... I wouldn't rather have twists on that record on "Story of the Ghost" than "End of Session," because I think "End of Session" is appropriate for it because it was, you know, the right song. Right. That's a long answer, but, you know... It could have been "Sand," maybe the other one you were reaching for. Well, "Sand," see, when I went in to do "Farmhouse," I had those remaining six songs and then I needed three more to make an album and me and Russ and Tony I just got together and written "Sand," got it true. And "First Tube," "Sand," with your lyrics, got it. So, again, from the book, and then those other two were just me and Russ and Tony. So I put those on there. Right. Just to round it out because there weren't any other songs floating around. It all works out in there, you know. I don't think "Simple" is on an album. No, come on. Simple, right. Simple. Some of your best stuff wasn't... Some of "Fishes" best stuff isn't on albums, which is great. Fishes greatest hits are not on albums. We've written a lot of songs. I, looking back, they all came out. The ones that are supposed to come out came out. It kind of doesn't really... I mean, I wouldn't change a thing is what I'm saying. Me either, yeah. Me either. And going back to "Ficus" now, I love "Ficus" when I hear it. I have to be the one that defends my "Ficus" statement. And that is, if I heard it live now, I would be the happiest guy in the arena. It was just I had... You did it a couple years ago. It was just I had a little push button thing happening whenever it came on the CD, because the other stuff around it, to me, was like... I wanted to hear it more at that time, which... Well, there's a weird thing, too, that I'll add to this conversation, which is that since we've been doing this for so long, particularly like you and I... Yeah. For so long. I mean, our entire lives, since we were like, how old are you in fifth grade? Yeah, you're 10. You know, yeah, you're 10. So I've kind of started to develop... Usually, I can tell as soon as the song is written, if it's... I have a pretty good feeling whether or not it's going to connect in a certain way. Yeah. Like, I remember like bouncing around the room. It's like, that was, you know, "Lawnboy" was done. Yeah. And then I was like, we got to go back in and do this song. And the same thing with "The Wedge." "Rift" was done and we went back into the studio. And I was like, we got into the song, because I think this is going to be good live. Yeah. Like, see, this is a strange thing. And I'll say this too. I mean, I'm always, always, always thinking about live. Like, I make albums in order... Like, I like making albums, but it's a little bit ass backwards that when we're making an album, I'm trying to think of like, how this is going to fit into the fabric of the live show. And so I think I thought... Like, I think I thought "Twist" was going to work live. And we had just the cycling vocals and the whole thing that had just happened. That had been such an amazing night. And I had been living with it. And the other guys had kind of just heard it. And so it kind of got voted off, you know? But it didn't matter. It's like, it's completely relevant. Yeah, yeah. As long as it gets from point A to point B, point A is writing and point B is into the... Into the solus. Into the solus. That's funny because I say that lyrics that I write have three birth cycles. One is, if I put it down on paper, then that's birth number one. The second is if you and I turn it into a song, that's birth number two. It becomes a song. And then three is if it becomes a fish song. Right, right. Trey, there's some important things that we have to talk about just to also give the audience an idea of how kind of magical this album creation was. Cool. You guys had gone to Bearsville to record Billy Breeze, which some say is your American beauty, right? And you had an amazing producer, Steve Lillywhite. And it was a magical, magical experience at Bearsville, which is like this compound on a hill with multiple studios and multiple beautiful houses and barns. And then you went back to do the ghost. And Trey, please tell us a little bit about Bearsville and what was going on and how it's so magical and wide, so cool. Bearsville was invented. Bearsville was started by Albert Grossman, who was Bob Dylan in the band and Janice Joplin, and they're manager. He was a famous manager in the '60s. He built Bearsville in 1969. It's on a big bucolic compound. It's in the middle of the woods and it's about two hours north of New York. So if you came sort of a retreat, a lot of great people played there. The Stones used to use it as a rehearsal space. You know, REM did some of those famous records there. Like, it was a cool place. When we went there, Sue and I, and I think you slept over, stayed in what was called Robertson House, which was actually Robbie Roberts' old house. It's just a vibey place. And Studio A had a big neve console in it. I think 44 channels that was built for The Who. And it was a huge, old-fashioned cement walled echo chamber, which is the way they used to build studios. So that's where we did all the late-night hangs that were the jams that ended up being, "Oh, let's just look at this." And it also has a barn at the bottom half of the studio. That's where we did Philly Breeze in the barn. I have a funny story about Bearsville, which is that while we were, who's in the barn, or maybe while we were up there doing a story that goes, the Slick Rick, who was like a rap legend. Yeah. Was in the other studio. And I was being, I always like to go say hi, so I was like, "I'm going, it's 11 o'clock at night. We were hanging out." I'm like, "I'm gonna go see Slick Rick." I'm like, "We're walking down there." And I went in, he was in the barn, and we were at Studio A, that's what it was. And it was like this huge pass, like all this gang of people, and everybody's like big billows of smoke and everything. And they had this big loud rap beat going on, like boom, boom. And the guy was writing in the pad, it was Slick Rick and all this stuff. And I kind of was like, "Hi, I'm up in the studio land." And their reaction was so funny, because they were like, "You walk down here?" And I said, "Yeah." They're like, "Aren't you afraid of all the animals?" Like a wild thing. The bears? Yeah, they're like, you know, I'd be afraid if I was walking through, you know, the South Bronx at three o'clock in the morning, but I'm not afraid of the bears. So these guys were like, they were city guys who had never been in the woods. Yeah, they'd been like being a horrible person. So that's kind of a funny thing. But and also when we were up at Baresville, up at the Studio A, we met Levon Helm on that trip, which is really cool. Wow. Yeah. You know, amazing. Yeah, he was hanging around. I mean, so Baresville, yeah, Baresville was great. It's closed now. It's not, they don't have studios like that anymore. Unfortunately, the technology has changed, and it's easy to record, sort of on your computer. So a lot of those studios went after this. Trey, let me interject my one fan, fanboy story meeting a star, and I think you can explain how it happened after I tell it. But basically Paige and I, you guys were playing a lot of chess. You were challenging the audience to chess. Chess was everywhere, and I loved chess. I was having chess nights back at home in Princeton. And so I was okay. You guys are good. I was, I could give you guys a good game. And Paige and I squared off. We were playing outside the second floor balcony, overlooking kind of a parking lot, attached to Studio A. And we were playing, and I think the rest of you guys had gone somewhere, and this car pulled up. It's kind of a piece of shit, car, nothing special. And out of the driver's seat, Chrissy Hind. And Paige, no hesitation, just said hi, Chrissy. Kind of like it was the most common thing in the world to see Chrissy Hind. And I was blown away, and I didn't say anything. I just kind of looked at her like, "Oh my God, that is fucking Chrissy Hind." And she had the funniest, she pointed at Paige. She looked up and pointed at Paige, and all the dudes in her car kind of stopped and looked up too. She pointed at Paige and she goes, and I think she might have been explaining it, or asking Paige a question, explaining it either to the guys, or asking Paige. And she pointed and she goes, "Fish," and Paige nodded, and then she pointed at me, and without even having to ask, she goes, "Not fish." And the reason that she knew that it was fish, was that how did she know? A couple of days earlier, this is so funny that happened to you. We were up on the second floor balcony, that was the apartment that we lived in, above the studio. And we were sitting there playing chess. And just doing nothing, playing chess, and eating sandwiches. And the door just flew open. It was our apartment. The door flew open, and Chrissy Hind came walking into the apartment, dressed in the full pretender's regalia, with the hair done up, and the fluffy shirt, and the blazer make up the whole thing. Whoa. And it was so weird, we were kind of like, "Oh, okay." Chrissy Hind. "What are you doing?" "Is he in our apartment?" And it turns out that she was doing a photo shoot, and she had gone in the wrong door. She just walked into our apartment, so then we kind of got talking. That explains it. Wow. That explains it. That's how we met. So that's how she already knew Paige, and didn't know me. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, Trey, you've... Other things about Daresville, or is that? That's really great about Daresville. That's a good description. Yeah, it's like... You know, when I got to visit and stay for a few days, like you said, with Trey in the Robbie Robertson house, it was an incredible honor, and then prior to that, I got to meet one of my idols, Steve Lilly White, when they were doing Billy Breeze. So that place has a fondness in my heart, and also at the time, we would go out as like... The band would go out in town and find this really cool, bars and clubs and stuff in Woodstock. We used to go to almost every night, the whole time we were doing Billy Breeze, and then the whole time we were doing Story of the Ghost, at the end of the night, we would go to this place called Pinecress. Yes. Which was kind of like, walking into like a Twin Peaks, an episode of Twin Peaks. Yes. And they had a jukebox, and it had Telegram Sam, by T-Rex on it, and it just had such fun. Every night, we'd like go in and like... You know, go to the bar, and then put on Telegram Sam. And Sicket was there with us. I remember we used to do that. And that just a side light, you know, that John Sicket, our engineer, who engineered and mixed Billy Breeze. That was actually Sicket's car on the cover of the Sicket Desert. Nice. So that was probably some night after the Pinecress. Sicket's. That it accelerated up all the kids. Points to the amount of partying, that was happening, kind of. I think we also... Didn't we play at the joyous lake one night? Yes. You guys played us as Asface, right? Was that us? Yes. I mean, that's the main thing you got to know about Bearville, and even the Chrissy Hines story. I think she's from around there, I'm not exactly sure. And you know, Leave on Hell, Luke, right there. It's right near Woodstock. So, you know, the whole thing was kind of, you know, that story has been told a million times about all the New York musicians who kind of moved up there. Yep. Create a little artist. It's an enclave. It's a big, beautiful enclave. Big pink is probably, you know, a mile away or something. Oh, yeah. Yep. The songs that we didn't mention. Mention them. 'Cause that couple of things to say. Limb by Lim. Love, limb by Limb. Love, limb by Limb. And now it's time to talk about lyrics. Uh-oh. Okay. First of all, Limb by Limb, some of my absolutely all-time favorite. Tom, lyrics, and I think Tom Scott, lyrics, and yep. Scott Herman credited on that song, for sure. I want that on my tombstone, my favorite line, possibly ever in a fish song. Tossed with a salad and bailed with a hay. And I'll do, I'll do a trample by Limb's impact by the dove on mine. And can I say one more thing about that? 'Cause that, if you listen to the trample by Limb's impact by the dove version of that song, it's pretty locked in. But the cool thing about that was that the drum beat, okay, which was a drum beat that I built on a drum machine. Yes. I was listening to, I wanted to find drum beats that were celebratory drum beats. So I was listening to these smithsonian recordings of street music during carnival in Brazil. Oh my God. And there was gangs of people, and they were going, like one guy was hitting the bass drum. If you imagine that drum beat, it was a whole street full of people. And then I put it all on little, jotted it all down on paper first. That was like a party, the sound of a party. Right. And then I built it on the drum machine and brought it to the farmhouse. And then we, and then we wrote limb by limb on top of that drum beat. Never want my hand cut off. Never want my hand cut off. Never want my hand cut off. Never need a clip side clip. Never turn my brains in words. Always give me what I like. Always take the best heart stack. Always recognize your feet. Always just the moment that you left is where I always turn left. And then the world's greatest drummer, as he did many other times, including like the wedge, was another drum beat that was written on, bouncing around the room was another drum beat that was written on. These drum beats, I'd bring these drum beats on drum machines. And then the world's greatest drummer would take them and learn them exactly, and then like extrapolate times a million. Right. And some of these were drum beats that Trey thought, you know, couldn't be played by a human and fishman. I'd fantasize about playing them. You know, I'm like a wannabe drummer, and that'd be if I could play the drums. That's how I would play the drums. And I could never do that. And fish would go and unlike any drummer I've ever worked with, I've tried that with other drummers. No one will actually go and learn it. He always wants to learn it, always wants more, and he'll learn these things and just soak them into his incredible vocabulary of drumming. He comes back the next day, like, and he knows it, but he's been playing it all night. And then he comes back the next day and knows it. If you go backstage at a fish concert, he's practicing the drums for three hours before he goes on stage. Jesus. The sound of a fish backstage, is the sound of a fish concert backstage, is the sound of fish playing the drums. I've known him since I was 18. He was the best man of my wedding. He was the first person I met when I went to UVM. He was practicing the drums the day I met him. I called him yesterday. He was practicing the drums. And he calls me up and asks for more. He's like, "Man, you got any weird beats or something?" And then he's just like, "So he's like a sponge." And then he listens to albums and does it. Holy shit. He's amazing. He's amazing. He is amazing. All right. Can I tell a really quick story? Yes. Trans. I had the opportunity to meet Dell McCurry last weekend. Dell and Ronnie. And Ronnie told me a story that he said that he met Fishman at a festival or at a show. And maybe it was when you guys were, when they had played with you guys. And Fishman said, "I learned the drums listening to you guys." And Ronnie said, "We don't have drums." And he said, "I know. I made them up. I made them up to all your songs." And he still remembered that to this day. Yeah. It's like that, like, I talked to him yesterday, I think, or two days ago. And he was learning the drums off this great album that both me and I were in love with for a while, which is a Mark Rebo album called "Lose Cubanas." I can't remember the whole title, "Lose Cubanas." Something. It's like a Cuban musicians and Mark Rebo. And he called me like two days ago. I said, "Oh man, I'm learning these drums." I'm sure he learned all the imaginary drum beats and tell the phrase, "Man." You know? So it's pretty fun to see how they're like all, it's all sort of blending into this style that nobody else has. And it's like a really unique style that he plays. All right. After "Lim by Lim," Frankie says, Brian and Robert, "Water in the Sky." Great. Okay. Frankie says, "Nice song that I think we jam." That came out of, I think, the jams, the jam sessions. Yeah, that's not Dave O's farmhouse, but the jams. Okay. Oh, okay. Like the stick of this jam. Next to our "Water in the Sky" and Brian and Robert. Yep. My greatest sense of pride in my friend Tom for those two songs. I absolutely adore the lyrics to Brian and Robert. I think it's some of your best lyrics. And it makes me, I love singing that song. And I'm honored. I love the way it's about. I love the person that is celebrating so much. And I adore "Singing Water in the Sky" because I think it's like, it's close a message to the kind of spirituality that I have. Yeah. As you could possibly verbalize. Well, that's like the nicest thing anyone's ever said about any of my songs. And you say that to me so much and try it. It means, it never loses its meaning when you say it. But Brian and Robert to me too, I have to say something magic happened there. And it's like such a simplistic song. And it just, it really comes together. And on this album, it's such a powerful. I love it. I love what Fish does. I love the band. Right. But it's so beautiful. If you're just staring at your walls. Observing, echoing, footfalls. From ten, it's wandering, distant halls. If this one is for you. If children play all around. To you, it's noise not pleasant sound. It may be lost on the playground. Everything is like understated and gorgeous. Yeah. The lyrics get better the older I get. Yeah, I can relate to them. There's lonely people out there, right? There's people out there. And somehow, I think I needed to write about one in particular. And I don't really remember who it was. But I think there was a person that I was thinking. Right. It could have been me. I was lonely, you know. High school, I had some lonely times. And water in the sky. Kind of to my daughter. Sort of an expression of love in a way. And yet also to something more ethereal. Rogue. Love. Rogue. And Rogue. One of my favorites to play. And that was very much a group think. Yep. [Music] The circus is the place for me with bears and clowns and noise. I love the shiny music that descends from overhead. According to the moment when the stars all turned around. But from that vantage point, I was around. If life were easy and not so fast, I wouldn't think about it. That was some mining of the prints for lines. And four band members at Davos Farmhouse passing the microphone around in a circle. I don't know where that one line came from. But it could have been just a moment, a spur of the moment joke. But I love Gordon. Gordon knew the moment when the stars all turned around. From that vantage point, I frowned. From that vantage point, I frowned. Gordon knew the moment. Yeah, I don't think I wrote that. I think you guys wrote that, which is fantastic. We probably had a bad one. Yeah, that's fantastic. Velvet C, we already talked about moma dance. Try. [Music] Moma dance. Now moma dance, I think it was either from those jam sessions, or it was Black Eyed Katie before it became moma dance. Yeah, it was. But was Black Eyed Katie 98 or was that 97? 97. We had already been playing that. Yeah, but we just, we just... More moma. Yeah. And then end of session. End of session. [Music] I'm a fan of this end of session. We played it at the Vegas desert. Yeah, I actually wanted to ask, was that like a purposeful sort of bust out? There's the only time you guys have ever played it live. So was that like a spur of the moment kind of thing, or had you been playing around with it? Well, there was like a lot of, I spent a lot of time thinking about the 13 nights, honest, for a lot of really interesting reasons. But I think when the idea first came up, they had come up before, but about a year before the Vegas desert, I sort of made this phone call to management. I was like, okay, it's time. You got to do it. Like, fine. And then when it happened, I remember floating the idea to the guys, like, I don't want them to do any repeats. And there was definitely a little bit of like, you know, do we have to do that? There was a little bit like that's kind of scary. So, you know, it was a lot of nights. It seems scary. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about it, and writing like I had poster boards all over my house, and colored pens, and I would like to wake up at six in the morning and drink coffee and kind of crawl around on the floor. I had to pick a hundred poster boards, and they're just all over the place, and scratching out and changing, and searching. And you know what I mean? Yeah. I want those poster boards. You know, I think I drew them all out too. I wish I hadn't, but I have pictures of them. I do have pictures of them. That's really cool though. Sue was making fun of me after a while, because she was saying it was starting to look like that movie, a beautiful movie. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. You know what she did? I was like, so another kept changing, and changing, and changing, and changing, like all the way up. And then it seemed like a chance to break out some songs. And those were kind of my favorite ones. You know, like, songs that we didn't do very often. But you know, what started to happen was, you can't like, it's still Saturday night at Madison Square Garden. You know what I'm saying? So there's an energy. You know, and suddenly that energy gets filled with like dog stole things. Right? Which I thought was pretty rocket. Yeah. You know, and so that was kind of the work, the searching. The searching was like, we must have more songs. And then, you know, and then I went up to Burlington and everybody played them, and then it started getting a mind of its own. Like the whole thing just kind of took all the mind of its own. That's amazing. That's really cool to hear about. Trey, from a fan perspective, and this is sort of a weird observation, and I don't know how you're going to think about this if you think this way at all. But if you like look back at like all the peaks, fish's peaks, and they could be, you know, performance or an album came out or whatever it is. But to me, there's like one amazing shining peak, and probably another now, which is so incredible that it's so recent in your career. And that would be Big Cypress and Bakers Dozen. You know, twin peaks, dude. Twin peaks. Well, funnily about ghost. I think ghost in a certain way was Mike's album. Meaning the bass, just the bass. I think the bass sounds amazing on that record. And I think that in '97, he kind of, I mean, he's so amazing. And but I think that era was when he kind of found this. Was that the model? Such a heavy-osity that has never left, and it's always been great. From a fan perspective, I completely agree. I mean, that's when his bass became much more prominent, but also like his effects. I mean, it just became a much bigger part of the sound. Totally. I completely agree. He like, and I love the bass on story that goes like right from the beginning, all of it. And it just stayed that way. And it's always been such a huge thing. What I wanted to add to that was one of the things that I think made the Bakers Dozen a success for me was I think the page had like this massive step forward. Two things to me, to my ear. One was when he played with the meters, which sort of like, and it just felt something different when he came back. It was like certain kind of like, like a kind of a step out thing that kind of happened from that. And then if you listen closely, he widened like his array of sounds about two tours ago, which I think the tour before the Bakers Dozen. And those long jams at the Bakers Dozen, you know, he's switching textures so much more frequently. Like, you know, more liberally going into the synthesizer realm too, which is beautiful. Yeah, a lot more synthesizer realm, a lot of different synthesizers, a lot more of various kind of roads and whirlies for whole long segments. And I think there's these like, I just think it's such a, such a cool thing. And, and enables some of those like long, like, like the Blaze honor, the simple jams at Bakers Dozen. If you really listen closely, a lot of it has to do, you know, when it was more kind of piano, clav, piano, clav, now every time he switches keyboards, it's like shifting gears and the whole band, the whole band shifts gears. Yeah, and it's a whole new like the palette. It's like he's painting with a new color and everybody else kind of follows that color. Totally, I totally agree. It just did a great, it's just, it's such a good place and, you know, we spend a lot of time together on the road, we kind of hang. I've never, I've never been able as a keyboardist, never been able, I've always marveled at, you know, like you called it a tapestry. I believe just now, yeah, page increased his tapestry. And yet, it doesn't sound like there's never a cheesiness, like there's never like, you know, the 80s bands when the goofy keyboard guy goes on to the other keyboard and like, yeah, you know what I mean? It's never, it's always very artistic and subtle and understated. And yet he knows how to play every one of them expertly. He started kind of going there also on Fuego. And if you, there's a lot of really cool keyboard textures. And another thing that was interesting that happened was he always had a great keyboard tech, but that Kevin retired and he got another new younger keyboard and tech. And according to Paige, I hope this isn't giving way too many secrets, but according to Paige, he was kind of, this guy was enthusiastic for Paige to bring some of his home keyboards on the road, Paige said like, it was kind of like his whole sonic, because Paige is a real, really picky about that, those sounds that we're talking about. I've heard him go off on it a lot of times. He hates this cheesy since that. So all the synths sounds that he uses and are like super organic, you know what I mean? And but in order to have all those organic, they kind of each do one thing. You've kind of got to bring all these things on the road. And a lot of them are old and antique and fragile. Which is the best situation for a time tuned. But you've got this really enthusiastic keyboard tech that that the two of them are having like a real renaissance over there. And also the organ even started sounding better in it. Everything just, I just think he's like leading the charge over there. I was watching a streaming version of one of the bait nights of the bakers does it. And I could have sworn that some of those keyboards were fake, because there were so many of them. I was like, you can't possibly have that many machines over there. But you can tell like that he's added on. He added a whole bunch. And it's so cool that you notice all these things. I didn't know if people were noticing these things, but no, they're all real. And they're antique and collectible. And it'd be real easy and virtually anybody that you see out there on the road will have like a grand piano shell with a digital piano inside of it. Virtually everyone that you see. Billy Joel or anybody, that's a digital piano inside a shell. And Paige just won't go there. It's a real piano that has to be tuned twice a day and then in between sets. And all those keyboards could be on one digital recreation keyboard. But they don't sound as good. I mean, the only way you can get the real sound, those things are like built. You have to carry them. And that thing that you were seeing, they're all real. And it's the only way you can get those kind of sounds. One of the best examples for me, and this is an incredible coming from me, because I don't remember concerts. I don't remember songs. I don't remember set lists, but I do remember a mama dance where, and this is early in the bakers dozen, maybe night three or four, where all of a sudden I was really blown away by Paige. And this was probably a 10 minute jam, 10 minute song. So I would say around minute seven or eight, all of a sudden Paige switched to a different keyboard, and it was electrifying. But I don't like subtle electrifying. He just went into this weird, amazing, muggy, kind of beautiful pad sound. And I was just like, oh my God, and you guys responded. It was just a beautiful moment. Listen to that mama dance and listen all the way through, because this comes late in the game. Check that out from Tommy. That's from Tom. Totally hear what you're saying. And I kind of like, I think it's the refresh button. He's the, you know what I mean? Like every time he switches keyboards, it's like a whole new paragraph or something or chapter. And it kind of reminds me of, I think it's kind of, I don't think it's copying or remissant, but it's a little more like pink Floyd textures now. Yes. Okay, which is, you know what I mean? Which is exactly where I want him to be, but I would never say that. And also, yeah, I mean, we haven't even begun to scratch the surface talking about his unbelievable Hammond technique, but let's not do the sound yeah, and by the go back and listen to how much better that Hammond sounds in the last two tours that it ever has before. It's blown, it blew me away every night of the baker's right. It's a new Hammond and this guy he's working with just like, wow, like, you know, the two of them. It sounds so, it sounds so much better. It's really, you try, try noticeable. We took an hour of your time. I'm not going to cut any of this. It was amazing. And thank you so much. And thank you. Trey, I want to ask you one last question. Yes. As a fan, I want to say, I mean, this, I'm not just saying this because you're on the phone. I would say this to Tom if you weren't on the phone, but you guys are, the sound is incredible right now and it's an, it's a wonderful experience for all of us to get to continue to go to shows. So thank you. I want to ask just what, what was it like walking upstage on that last night of the dozen, just because you guys had, I mean, like you said, you must have been planning this for, what, nine months at least. I mean, was it, was it a sense of relief and wonder or what, what was that like? Okay. Let's try to say this without getting choked up and like, but the whole from the beginning, I talked to Paige yesterday, I was still talking about this. There was something tangible and noticeable about what's happened to the whole community of fish. It's been like a shift in our perspective of watching and being blown away by the friendships and the stuff that's happening. You know, we know people, but we don't, you know what I mean? But there was a, there was a feeling, I thought the four of us thought this and we talked about it. That was so, maybe it's because we played this so many times or maybe, I don't know, but it was like, we were at some kind of social community event that we were a part of. And the way people were reacting to things that were so subtle and you could feel the reaction, you know, you can hear it on the tapes. Like, you know, there's some kind of something that would take years and years and years to get to the point where anybody would notice that it was even something to react to, right? You know, okay, so sample goes an extra 16 bars. And we're like, oh my God, like everybody's here, let's keep going. It was symbiotic. It's like symbiotic and old, meaning like two trees growing together and wrapping around or something or, you know what I mean? And so that's kind of what it felt like and and the comfort of the whole thing and the slowness and sitting and reading newspapers during harpua. And I don't know, it's that and also, you know, you know, how long we've been friends is. And I don't know, like, I lost my best friend this year and then Ray, you know, keyboard player from Tab got, he's great now, by the way, but he did have a very scary, well, there, we were all very scared, you know, got brain cancer, which is never a good thing to get. And you kind of get older and you start, you know, you know, appreciating your friends and even the ones that aren't actually like on a first-name basis with, but we kind of feel that way about people in our scene, you know, like we're part of this cool thing. Like, you're a part of it, you know, you know, with the Healthy Friendly podcast, like, I hear about your podcast from Patrick, who's my manager. He's a big fan, he listens to it all the time. And he's like, when, if I ever need to know, actually learn something about this, you know, really inside parts of fish, I listen to the Healthy Friendly podcast. Like, I know about, we know about what's going on and we feel like we're part of something. So I think when the Vegas doesn't end it, it was, I don't know, everybody's kind of like a little teary when we walk backstage, you know, just when I don't really know, when you sang that Willie Nelson on the road, that was, that was killing me. Yeah, it's like, trying to not sob. You know, I think you start to, you get, you do get a sense of your, and that being morbid and being a realistic person, we've been in a band for 35 years and I think it lasts forever. And I hope, I hope this lasts a lot longer. I hope we're all four playing when we're 90. But if you look around at bands with the original four members in their 35th year, yeah, how many are there? I mean, there are some. They're not a lot. There are some. I mean, it's easy to help us still go. I want to tell you, you two, you two, and, but a lot of, and that's two bands are all still cool. There's other bands that still hang in there, but don't like each other, you know what I mean? Right. We actually hang out and like, you know, they're my favorite people. Right. You know, they're the smartest, funniest, or the most amazing people I've ever met, ever in my life, ever. Yeah. I mean, you know how you're so lucky that you met. You guys are so I don't even know how that happened. I just, it's like, it's the best. Any one of the three of them, any one of the three of them. Yep. We're all, we all feel very lucky too, from this side. From the fan side, it's like amazing. And I'm in this amazing lucky place where, Trey, you're not even there, where I get to, I get to be a fan too, which is unbelievable. I've never seen fish. So I don't know. I've never been to a console. I just see my rug. Never been to a fish show. No, I don't have any idea what it looks like. I just basically see my rug and the same 15 people in the front row. The dudes, the dudes. Who I'm like best friends with, but I don't know any other names. I spent like more time in the vicinity, in the five foot vicinity of those guys. Probably with any other humans. If you actually added it up. It's really weird. I know them all. I know them all so well. But the pizza, pizza shirt guy. Right. Exactly. Wow. Smiling person on the left. Yeah. I actually have a picture of, it's so funny. I have three little pictures in my house. It's the only, if you came to the house, there's no representation of the music career at all. Except for three little pictures. One of them is like a big black picture with way in the tiny corner. There's like the four guys from the picture singing a acapella and then next to it is a big picture that Patrick took during the Baker's desert of the front row of like, not just the front row, the whole standing in the pit, looking at the audience, what I see. Exactly what I see. Oh my god. And everybody's like, it's so cool. That's a great one. I want to, I want to, I want to check that one out. It's such a good picture. I always kind of wish the camera reasons. I wish the cameras would turn around a little bit more into the audience. Yeah. Every now and then, I kind of feel that way. I mean, I'll send you a copy of it and you'll see what I look at all night long. But it's so cool because everybody's looking up and there isn't one cell phone in the whole picture. That's fantastic. Everybody, there's just things about it that make me so happy. And that's everybody's in there having their experience together and like looking up. And it was because no cell phones and everybody's like, I don't know man, just makes me so grateful to see, to be part of that. You know, they're not like, and there's like the right amount of space between people. I don't know. I can't explain it. You don't have to explain it. We know we're going to see it. We're there. What's the third tray before we wrap up? You said there were three pictures. It's my favorite. It's this picture of Tab at Vegas with the MacArthur Park dancers, and all of us in a row. So it's Jennifer. The third picture is Jennifer James, Natalie, Tony Russ, and Ray. Nice. Zero. Awesome. So there's one little picture of fish that and then and then there's the rest of the houses, you know, my family and stuff. But I just I have one little corner in my man cave that I allow to be the gratitude for music corner. I think you deserve it. You deserve it, Ray. Thank you so much for answering all the questions and more for the podcast where we had kind of gone astray. Oh man, thanks you guys so much. And thanks to both of you. And we'll see you at the gorge. Yes, you'll see me at Tahoe and RJ at Tahoe for sure. If we make it to the gorge, it's only because we smuggled ourselves onto your onto the bus. There's always room in the bay where the luggage goes. Okay, okay, talk to you soon. Okay, see you. Bye. Bye. Thanks, Trey. This podcast is in the loop, the Legion of Osiris podcasts. Osiris is creating a community that connects people like you with live experiences and podcasts about artists and topics you love. Get in the loop at OsirisPod.com. Hold on, Timbo? Hold on, I'm trying to turn this fucking thing off. The recorder? That was fun. Hello, Tom May here, host of Future Friday. I've spent the last 15 years on the road with my band, The Menzingers, where I've met all kinds of wild and fascinating people. So I started a podcast. On Future Friday, I talked to fellow musicians about the moments that made them, their passions outside of music, and the curiosities that tie us all together. I've also talked to the likes of UFO researchers, magicians, soldiers, and documentary filmmakers. And I'm constantly searching for folks that can shape and change our view of the world. You can check out Future Friday, wherever you like. Hey, everyone. This is Tuck from Fit for a King in Off-Road minivan. Every week, I bring you fun interviews alongside your favorite metal core entertainers with my new podcast, Get Tucked. Join me every Monday with bands like counterparts, Crystal Lake, like Mazda Flames, and many more. We play unsigned and undiscovered bands, deep dive into each artist's history, and, of course, provide the greatest breakdowns in current metal core. Tune in to Get Tucked every Monday out now through Sound Talent Media.
