(upbeat music) Short time ago, I was accepted the resignation of the NYPD commissioner, Edward Caban. He concluded that this is the best decision at this time. I respect his decision and I wish him well. - Welcome to New York One's off topic on politics. I'm New York One investigative reporter, Courtney Gross. Edward Caban is out. Police commissioner Edward Caban has resigned after his phone was seized last week by federal investigators. He was one of five top Adams administration officials who were the subject of search warrants last week, and he's the first to lose his job over it. The scandal, which is complex and involves multiple federal agencies and investigations, has shaken City Hall. It's fast moving and information is fluid. We are taping Thursday afternoon, so of course, some info is subject to change. But here with me to break it all down is our political director, Bob Hart. - Hey, it's good to be here and you're so modest. You broke the story that they took Caban's phone away. - I did. That was, and it was intense. It was a long day, right? That was a long day. As today is a long day, which is, you know, Thursday, and it's all news broke a little bit earlier this morning. Making his off topic debut to break it all down for us is Anchor and Criminal Justice reporter, Dean Mementor, the legend himself. - The legend in my own mind. - In the podcast room. - I'm glad to be here with you. - You have bought me in Bob, my old roommate from Hurricane Sandy. - Yes, it's her housemate. - And don't bring us any bad luck. It's only September, right? Anything could happen in September, October. - Yeah. Okay, so Edward Caban became a police officer in 1991, rising through the ranks, eventually becoming the first Latino to lead the New York City Police Department. He is now leaving under a shroud of controversy. Yes, federal investigators are honing in on the NYPD, an inquiry being conducted by the Southern District of New York and the IRS. We know it involves the police commissioner now former PC, actually, his brother, James Caban. He was or is a nightlife consultant, and the feds may be looking into whether he was using his connections with the NYPD to somehow benefit certain clubs or bars. Again, this is all preliminary and subject to change, but it certainly looks like the brother may be the PC's downfall, Bob. - This seems to happen all the time with public officials. Someone's brother or sister gets into trouble. I mean, you look at Hunter Biden, Billy Carter, Neil Bush, I mean, Hillary Clinton's brothers. There always seems to be some brother trying to cash in on the other brother's success, and that may be what we're seeing here. - So, Dean, I mean, you've been covering PD for how long, like a thousand years? - Yeah, wow, not that old, but you know, but for a minute, for a minute. - Okay, for a minute, for a half minute. So, I mean, what is the mood over there? What are people saying, Neil? - Well, they're kind of confused because not only did you have the hit on Caban and his brothers and other top city hall officials either being raided or receiving warrants, a lot of people didn't know this was going to happen, right? And now that there is an interim police commissioner in place, many of them, they don't even know who this person is, and they didn't know the mayor would announce an interim PC so quickly. - So, we'll get to the interim PC in a minute. I wanna discuss a little bit more about the downfall and what exactly happened to Caban. I mean, I don't know what your sources are telling you, Dean, but what we know that this is not just the PC that multiple executives and YPD executives have received. They've gotten their phone searched or gotten their phone seized rather, or it's been some subject of search warrants. - And it's still a bit confusing, right? Because we haven't had the FBI or the US Attorney's Office come out and say, "This is what we are looking at," but as you mentioned-- - We would love that. I wish they did that. - No, at some point it will be public, right? If they indict anybody, right? We wanna continue to say, and I know people say, "Well, they're investigating everybody," but it's still important to say. No one indicted, no one arrested, no one charged. It's an investigation, so they are looking for something. But as you mentioned, does it have to do with his twin brother, right? They are identical. - Yeah, you look at the Facebook page and they're like, "I wouldn't be able "to tell a man on the street." - And I think his brother may be a little slimmer than him, and then there's a third brother, right? - Yeah. - You know. - And that is the Consafrito brother. - Yeah, I'm still not clear on who owns what. Do you know, is it the restaurant? Is it the security business? - The third brother owns Consafrito, which is the bar in the Bronx that was frequented by the mayor and a bunch of other elected officials and gained a lot of controversy because it had a bad deck and a landlord dispute. - And the deck always remained open no matter what. - Remember those movies where the twins would switch identities and then pretend to be each other? Wouldn't that be the craziest thing? But in all seriousness, even though no one's been charged because it's the top law enforcement official in the city, that you can't have your job after you're like, the FBI takes your phone away. You just can't, even if you don't get charged with anything. It's not like the Parks Commissioner or your first deputy mayor, if you're law enforcement and you have a relationship with the FBI, you can't have another relationship with the FBI after they've taken your phone. - So that's what you think the distinction is because I mean, I wanna get to the other parts of the investigation later on in the podcast, but I feel like it's strange that so far, the only people that have been calling for someone's head, so to speak, were calling for resignations as people have been really honing in and had been honing in on the PC or the police commissioner since we first learned about the warrants and the phones being seized on Thursday. It was like the next day, then you had Bob Holden and all these other people say, you know what the PC has to go. - Yeah, because there was so many people who actually had these warrants issued against them or raids, but you're right, it was a PC command that he has to go, but you have to, you know, what you're saying, hey, if he's law enforcement, that is a big part of the issue. And when you say, wait, the two of his brothers may be involved, one, a twin brother who is a former NYPD officer. There is a lot going on, right? So, and the mayor is dealing with his own stuff, and now you have to deal with the police commissioner. Something has to change, and maybe this is where, you know, Caban was the first one to have to exit. - Right, I mean, you have the school's chancellor, you have the first deputy mayor. It's all the king's men, right? And so that's the question some people would say is, well, why are you not saying the mayor should step down? You know, no, he hasn't been charged with anything. The other possibility is that City Hall has gained wind of exactly what's being looked at and knows a lot more than we know, and they are just saying, you gotta go. So, it may not even be the nice version I gave, and say, oh, he's top of law enforcement taking his problems with it. They might know something that we don't know, and they're like, you gotta go right now. - And, you know, we were speaking a lot about the police commissioner, but understand, I think there was the chief of staff for the police commissioner. There were some other precinct commanders involved who all had their phones snatched by- phones and inventant. - Well, yeah, so there's definitely a lot going on, so it's not only the top where at City Hall, you had the top officials, but in the NYPD, you have the top person and all of these other individuals. - I mean, Bob, it feels like it's something out of Cerpico, or it feels like the '70s are coming back. - Except, Cerpico wasn't the police commissioner. Maybe they were turning a blind eye. You know, for so many times, there's been police scandals involving a precinct, evolving a so-called crew. You haven't had a police commissioner. You had Carrick implicated, but that was after he left one police plaza. You haven't had a police commissioner implicated in anything like this since Bill O'Dwyer was mayor in 1950. So, I mean, that's one thing that really stands out of me, it's never been this high before or in recent years. - Somebody, a person who was high-ranking many years ago, but stays involved with people in the city and the NYPD, telling me to them, for him, it sounds like, you know, nap commission, mall and commission, where they looked at all of these cases of corruption, but as you said, it didn't involve the police commissioner, but these were big, big hearings about police corruption. - But those were the little guys. This is the opposite. No little guys been implicated in anything. It's the big guys. It was really telling to me on 9/11, when Pat Kiernan had an interview with two members of the police brass, and the spokesman is at Tariq Shepherd, said to Pat, like, "We don't know what's going on." And it was a surprise. It was sort of like a rare moment of candor, that they're trying to find out what's happening in real time as well. - So, I'm not worried about it being attracted in terms of keeping people safe, but I'm sure many members of the department just want to know what's going on as like all people in the city and around the country. This has been really world news. - Yeah, when we broke the news last Thursday, and then I got the PC's number, and I called him, and he picked up the phone, which is like, he doesn't have my phone number, so I don't know why he picked up a random phone number, but he did, and he was on a plane, or he said he was on a plane. - This is the police commissioner. - Yes, the police commissioner on Thursday of last week. He was on a plane, and I was like, "What's going on? What happened?" And he said, "It wasn't me, it was Phil," and it was Sheena referring to the deputy mayor for public safety. - No, he wasn't blaming him. - At first, no. - He was like, "Yeah, it was like, it wasn't me, it wasn't me." And I'm like, "Yeah, but what about you?" And he's like, "You know what, I'm on this plane. "I got to go, I got to go, I got to go. "Can you hear that I'm on a plane?" I'm like, "Yeah, but what happened?" And he's like, "We'll talk Monday, we'll talk Monday." And then he just hangs up, and I'm like, "Okay, we'll talk Monday." - I said Monday, yeah. - Well, we didn't talk Monday, yeah. And what happened on Tuesday is that the mayor, of course, was asked all these questions about the police commissioner, and you could tell that the pressure was on. And in fact, when he was asked these questions, he never even said, "I stand by Eddie Caban." He never said that. He said, "I stand by the NYPD," which is a big distinction. - Yeah, and that's the question. Can, how can the department function with three different leaders in three years, under Bill de Blasio, he had three commissioners in eight years, Bloomberg had one commissioner in 12 years, Giuliani, who micromanaged the department, he only had three commissioners in eight years, and we're at three in year three of Eric Adams. - And this is from a mayor who came in saying that he was basically gonna be the criminal justice, the NYPD mayor, he was gonna clean up the city, he was gonna reduce crime because crime was obviously going up during COVID. And now what has happened under his leadership, under his tenure, but you have a massive scandal and federal investigation into the NYPD. - And we should point out that he made history with both of these appointments. Sewell was the first woman commissioner. Caban was the first Latino. And yet the history is gonna be just a footnote, as opposed to being like the Jackie Robinson in the NYPD. - I wanna read briefly, we did get a letter from Caban that he sent to the department, saying that the news around, this is a quote, the news around recent developments has created a distraction for our department, and I am unwilling to let my attention be on anything other than our important work or the safety of the men and women of the NYPD. So that's the explanation he gave. I should note that we did reach out to his reported attorneys, we haven't heard back from them yet about just a response to the whole investigation. So. - Well, you know, the one thing you're right, you have the police commissioners who run the police department, but the NYPD is a massive machine. It will continue to go on, right? Yes, a lot of instruction comes from downtown at police headquarters, we call it one P.P., right? One police plaza, but Brooklyn borough, Bronx borough, Queens, you know, north and south, Staten Island, you know, they have to have their finger on the pulse of their neighborhoods and their boroughs, and they will keep moving forward. And there are many different leaders within the police department that will step up, you know, some of them have their own drama, right? But, you know, whether it's the chief of department, chief of patrol, chief of operations or deputy commissioner of operations, and there's so many people who are there, the NYPD will continue. - All right, but Patrick Ewing would always score 20 points and have 10 rebounds a game, but you still wanted to have a good coach. - Yes, yes. - And that's what I'd say here. - But once again, and you've reported this, Bob, well, maybe the real coach is in city hall. - In city hall, Eric Adams, right? - But he said that, so. - But I would say that they're doing an overall, doing a good job in crime is going down in most but not all precincts. But the question, I would throw out there, I mean, we'll never know the answers, if you had really effective leadership at the top, maybe the numbers would be even better. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it, whoof, what a week, what a week for, this is probably, we're not even done with a week, it's probably been the worst week for Eric Adams. And also, I don't even think we mentioned he has COVID. - Yeah. - On top of all of this. - So I want to get into a little bit, I mean, we don't know the exact details of the specific investigation into the NYPD just yet, but we know that there's been about seven top officials who have had their phone seized, including Caban, and that it somehow revolves around Caban's brother, James. Now I was doing some calls this week, just into the nightlife industry, and basically what some sources were saying is that the guy was known, James, some clear what clubs he was necessarily working at, but he was kind of known in the industry or is kind of known as the, in the industry as a fixer. It's like, hey, you got a problem at a club, then maybe he can be your guide to potentially get the PD off your back. - Some have said that this isn't the 80s and 90s New York anymore, like why would you even need that? Like we don't have these crazy huge clubs anymore. I mean, back in the day, when I was going to like club exit or something. - You still have clubs, it's just not like when we were young people running around, but you still have clubs. - I was going to the bridge and tunnel clubs, sorry. - You know, but when you go out, especially in the Chelsea neighborhood, you know, I work Saturday and Sunday nights and Friday nights, so when I leave and you're in the Chelsea neighborhood and they meet packing districts, there are a lot of clubs out here and people are going to those clubs. And sometimes you'll see them shut down the street on, you know, West 15th or West 16th. I don't know if there's some big celebrities rolling through, but sometimes the cops will actually shut the streets down. I'm like, they have a lot of cops out at this club tonight. What's going on? - Yeah, so it's just, it seems kind of crazy to me that if true, you know, the reporting, there's still a lot of reporting to be done on this. We don't know the exact details, but it seems like it hearkens back to this old New York where you have some insider guy getting the PD potentially out of some business and not giving them a hard time. - It is really reminiscent of the old days, but maybe we never left the old days. The one thing that the NYPD does sort of remind, the NYPD has always been an old boys club. It just feels even like old boys clubier than usual. And that's because Eric Adams was a member of that club for a while. And there clearly needs to be a change, but I don't know, you're not going to get a big agent of change with potential only one year left in this administration. - What are the things that surprises me? Is that if there is wrongdoing here, and people are saying, don't be naive, Dean, right? But I still want to say, look, it's an investigation. - And I want to point that out. But some people are like, if you see the smoke, there's a fire, maybe so. But doesn't mean everyone's going to get locked up, right? But it does surprise me over the years. So many people have been arrested by the feds or the NYPD or some other local police department that people would still be willing to break the law and do things like this. Because clearly, if someone was showing up to a nightclub to collect money, there are cameras everywhere. There are informants everywhere. Bob, you could be an informant right now. I don't know, but, Dean, he's laughing, he's laughing. - We're going to be coming to your desk with a little box, 'cause we have a phone right now. But no, that's what surprises me. - I agree with you. - And we do stupid things with our phones. We text each other stuff that we probably shouldn't text each other. - Yeah, but we're not stealing it. - I mean, we've seen so many politicians get charged and arrested and convicted or plead guilty for the stupidest stuff, including stuff that doesn't matter. I always feel like, let's do the risk-rewards chart over here, okay, like reward. Okay, you get some money. Risk, you're going away to prison and complete scandal for the rest of your life. And it always surprises me that people, and sometimes I'm sure someone does get away with it, but the downside is you're getting locked up for a couple of years and leaving your job in disgrace. - So, I mean, turning a page, at least the mayor would like to think that we're turning a page because he did appoint an interim PD, interim commissioner, Tom Donland, so what do we know about this guy so far? - So, he is a veteran, was a 30-plus year veteran of the FBI and really made his name and reputation as an anti-terrorist guy, reminiscent to me of a little bit of the late John O'Neill who was really onto Al-Qaeda when he was in the FBI and then died when he was doing security at Orbital Trade Center in 9/11. He helped investigate the bombing of the USS Cole and helped actually capture some of the proper traders behind that, and then he became the state's homeland security director under David Patterson for about a year and a half when Patterson was governor. After that, he ran security for three different banks, including Credit Suisse, Credit Suisse. - Swiss, Swiss, Swiss, and BlackRock. And then at some point, he created his own security firm, which in the middle of today, suddenly the website scrubbed and you can no longer have access to it. - I wonder if that was because so many people were on it. - The big question I would have and I'm sure he'll get asked, and the city hall will get asked is just the client list, like is there any shady clients that you've ever hired them? And then they'll probably say it's private, but he has a very, very strong reputation in the FBI. Two brothers who worked in the fire department. He's from the Bronx, even sold peanuts at Yankee Stadium when he was a boy. So he's, I'd say he's NYPD adjacent, but never worked in the NYPD. - I mean, and also co-case agent on the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. - Exactly. - And I spoke to someone who knows him, worked with him way back when, you know, my contact describing him as being as close to a city cop without being a city cop because he worked, you know, for the feds, the FBI in New York, working on the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, but also on other investigations. So not only dealing with top NYPD officials, but they described him as like perhaps a boots-on-the-ground kind of guy working with detective and cops, you know, trying to break cases. And, you know, with his global security firms, they say he brings with him a wealth of knowledge when it comes to global security, global crisis management, you know, whether that's terrorism or dealing with companies who have issues and you bring up, well, who were, what clients did he have? Well, maybe he did have some of these clients that may be shady or people concerned about because if he dealt with crisis management, well, that's who will hire you. - To me, it's super interesting that they decided to tap somebody that is not within one PPE. I mean, I think that that just shows that they needed to go on to the outside to have some sort of break or independence from the investigation that is now swirling around that institution. - And the commissioner's office, it's on the 14th floor? - 14th floor. - So my question is, is, does he just go in and clean out the 14th floor? All of the atoms, you know, connections, cronies, whatever you wanna, word you wanna use, will they all have their jobs? And if Donum really wants to make a statement, he's gonna have to really clean. - That would be, that would be everybody, right? - Yeah, that would turn out the 14th floor. - But yeah, it would be a big deal. But as interim police commissioner, you know, so I don't know if you will. - And would the mayor give him that power? - I can't imagine that you would. - And also a lot of folks there who are at the top right now, they don't know this person, they don't know who it is. So he could come in and, you know, say, "Hey, Mr. Mayor, I do need to bring in some of my own people." Or, you know, maybe the mayor would say, "No, these people are there, the city's going in the right direction." In terms of crime, we're gonna keep on that path, but you manage, folks, and report back to me. Somebody also pointed out to me, they can't imagine Eric Adams picking someone out of the blue who he doesn't know at all. - Oh, I'm sure he's known. The question is, though, Donum doesn't need this job, which is a little scary for Eric Adams, because at a certain point, Donum can just say, "See ya, I'm out of here." It's not like a young rising star. Donum's career is in the books, and he doesn't care if the mayor gets mad at him because he wants to make changes. So that's the thing, is you're pointing someone now, you know, who doesn't give a blank, you know, any more about probably angering the mayor. - Well, I mean, perhaps he doesn't care, but does he like this job? You know, it never hurts when you have a business like this to say, "You were the NYPD." You have a commissioner, right? The largest city in the country, and we know so many of these countries across the world and organizations love to come to the NYPD to pick off their chiefs and say, "Hey, look at global security for me. "Look at internet security for me." So it doesn't hurt, but like you said, he's a veteran, so maybe he's not just going to be a total yes man, but he took the job. So we will have to see. He knows, I assume he knows what he's taking over. - He knows what he's getting. He's helping soon here, or I think he probably does. Okay, so I want to take a quick break, and when we come back, we're going to discuss the other investigation or other investigations into City Hall. We'll bear that. (upbeat music) - Here's the deal, in this election year, people need a place to explore national issues that have an impact on their community. To understand those issues better, we're bringing together our team of local political journalists from across the country to break down what's happening. So join us every week to catch up on the key stories making a big difference across the nation and in your local community. - Watch the big deal with Errol Lewis Friday nights at eight on Spectrum News, New York One, available on all of your favorite devices exclusively on Spectrum. - Small business owners, Spectrum Business knows you do it all. Make sales, track inventory, and keep your customers happy. Keep it all going with Spectrum One for Business. For just $49.99 a month, get fast, reliable internet, advanced Wi-Fi with security shield, and a free mobile line for one year. Visit spectrum.com/business to get internet, advanced Wi-Fi, and a free mobile line for a year for $49.99 a month. Visit spectrum.com/business today. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. (upbeat music) - So Bob, we've let Dean go because we're gonna turn to politics now and the rest of the administration. We know that what, first Deputy Mayor Sheena Wright, school's Chancellor, David Banks, a Deputy Mayor for Public Safety, Phil Banks. Timothy Pearson, whose job is a little questionable. We don't really know what he does. (laughing) - Exactly. - That's what I say to me. - The man with a portfolio, right. - Unclear what his job is. Have all received search warrants, been, you know, phone seized, some homes raided. I mean, I know we touched this on this a little bit with Dean, but my question is, why aren't they, why aren't their jobs at risk? And what exactly is that investigation all about? Like, what is being swept up there? - I mean, there's a couple, there's one thing we were talking about in an earlier segment, which is, well, they're not law enforcement, so the bar isn't so high for them. The other is that maybe everyone gained wind of exactly what is going on with Caban. And the third thing is they're all in this thing together, you know, like if Sheena Wright, and who knows what about whom and why, but it does remind me of some more serious scandals. I mean, you go back, you look at Watergate and, you know, everything swirling around, and we're still at a point where no one's being charged, but I haven't seen anything quite like this. - So it's supposedly, there's some question of whether or not the other bank's brother, Terence Branks, or Terry, as he goes by, who set up a lobbying firm shortly after the mayor took office known as the Pearl Alliance, and he had gained some sort of clients, and there's a question of whether or not he was trying to get his client's contracts, or there was some sort of, I don't know, hand-ringing, or favors, or something related to the third bank's brothers. - The mystery bank's brother. - The other bank's brothers, I mean, he worked, I mean, we talk about how many banks by the other, and there's just the three, I think. - Well, this is like the Mark's brothers, you know, and then they talk about GUMO and Zepo, but in all seriousness, his story, Terence Banks is sort of wild to me, 'cause he's a well-liked MTA mid-level supervisor, right? - Yeah. - And then suddenly it feels like he's won the lottery because of his family connections. He's announcing his retirement. These VIPs come to his retirement party. - Yeah. - Celebrating, you know, I think someone there says, oh, we're celebrating his next step. So it's very clear that he's gonna be cashing in on his brothers, and that sounds like what happened now. There's a legal way to do it, I guess, and there's an illegal way to do it, but it's a very fuzzy that suddenly someone's leaving the MTA who really doesn't have a lot of, like, PR, you know-- - Or lobbying experience. - Or lobbying experience. - He was a train supervisor. - Right, and that's the thing that jumps out at me, is train supervisor to VIP, basically because Eric Adams was elected mayor. - So that leads us to the next question. Last next conversation is what is gonna happen to the mayor? I mean, we have a very crowded primary, and we have someone else joining the primary field today. - I'm a mother, I'm a renter, I'm a strap hanger, and I'm ready to be the next mayor of New York City. We can revive our city and make our dreams come true. - So Jessica Ramos is joining officially the fray, first female candidate, first Latina candidate. She's obviously gonna be running the mayor's left, so, I mean, we know the mayor's vulnerable. We've talked about how vulnerable the mayor is many, many times, but I guess, is this, I don't wanna say it's over for him, right? Because we don't know, this is-- - Let's say he's never charged with anything. - Let's just say like the US attorney puts out a, you're okay letter, or we're not charging you a letter. - Unethical, but okay, de Blasio style. - Right, which is the best case scenario, politically. Unless it's like, we love you, but anyways, so, best case scenario, he's semi exonerated by the US attorney. You still have all these people running against you. There was all this negative press coverage, and for months, so he's still very vulnerable, right? And that's this before, if anyone gets charged, who knows? I mean, his approval ratings were already in the basement before any of this happened, so, but before rank choice voting, I'd say, he's gonna be fine or relatively fine because he has so many different opponents, and the more anti-Adams people there are, the better because it splits the vote. With rank choice voting, we don't quite know what happens, except that we know how the process works, that if you don't get 51%, it goes to the lowest finisher, their votes get divided up, and so on and so on. That's how Catherine Garcia almost beat Eric Adams. And so, typically, it's like, you have too many people to the left, they're gonna divide the opposition, and Eric Adams is gonna walk in and be reelected. It's a different story, I think, with rank choice voting, but it's still helpful because it's gonna divide donations. If you only have $10 to give, you can't give it to all the far left candidates, and it also divides us in the media's attention. If we're talking about five different people running against the mayor. - I also don't think any of these candidates quite yet, Ramos included, really slices off the mayor's base. I think that they're all gobbling up the same kind of New York City voter, which is the anti-Adams voter, or do any of these candidates, whether it be Zellmer Myries, Stringer, Ramos, who am I forgetting? Oh, Bradley Ender. - No, and this is a great question by you. - Hey, his base is not one of you appeals to his base, right? - No, like, who's gonna be speaking to black voters in Brooklyn? Who's gonna be speaking to voters? - Well, maybe Zellmer Myries. - Maybe Zellmer Myries is black. - But yes, yeah, but like, yes, true. But I just don't know, he's still, I mean, I know he's like trying to be more of a moderate than he had been in the past, but he's still in my mind, maybe, just from knowing him, his position historically, is like seen as a left candidate. - No, I think you're making a great point, and I think what you need to do is, at a certain point, if you, this is why Rank Choice Voting could really show, is Eric Adams' base more than 51%, and if it is, he's gonna get reelected. If not, then you're gonna see the Rank Choice voting computer perhaps do him in. The approval number is really lousy, but you're right. Like, if you're black working or middle class, Eric Adams' numbers are much better than the numbers overall, and that's a typically good voting black, especially in Brooklyn. And so, yeah, you can not count him out at all. In fact, that's still favoring him. - Yeah, okay, so that'll do it for this week's episode. Don't forget, you can find us all on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, and send us an email at yoursdorianneorquan@charter.com. You can subscribe to "Offed Topic" wherever you get your podcast, and if you like what you're hearing, leave a review. Thanks to our producer, Andy Roman. Thanks for listening, everybody. See you next week. (upbeat music)
