Kat's Podcast

Female cycle, menstruation, postpartum & how tonic herbs can help restore our wellbeing with Tahnee Taylor - part 2

This is part 1 of my conversation with Tahnee Taylor, co-creator of the Australian tonic herbs and medicinal mushrooms company Superfeast as well as yoga teacher. This episode is full of wisdom on the menstrual cycle, what causes + how to avoid PMS, period pain and postpartum stress, and how tonic herbs and medicinal mushrooms can help us restore and keep our wellbeing.

We also talk about Tahnee’s personal story of depletion and how she restored her physical resources, her energy and cycle.

It’s a great episode for any woman dealing with period pain or an irregular cycle, any woman who feels stressed or who thinks she has to do more, and especially yoga teachers and people in healing professions, as we can tend to overgive and neglect ourselves.

episode page with full show notes + all product links: https://kathrinhecht.com/ep-45-46

Duration:: 1h 16m
Broadcast on:: 31 Aug 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Women's Health Series

Superfeast + get 10% off using the code Kathrin10 Dutch Health Store

[Music] This has kept podcast episode number 46. It's the second part of the conversation with Tani Taylor, yoga teacher and co-creator of the Australian company Superfeast. Now, if you haven't yet listened to the first part, which is episode number 45, hop back, do so, and if you have, well then, enjoy the second part of our conversation. Now, coming back to the beginning of the story, you said you took this ratio in the Hishu Wu. So, if there are, like, women listening now, and I'm sure there are a few who are dealing with painful periods or PMS. What would be the topic that you recommend? Can you say for you it was the ratio, the Hishu Wu, or is it super individual? Well, yes or no. So, Rashi and Hishu Wu are, so I've spoken about Rashi being a Shen-tonic, a heart tonic, but it's also a liver tonic. And I spoke about the emotions and the liver, and I really can't emphasize enough that our emotional state especially impacts the liver. So, in Chinese medicine, every organ of which there are five-year organs, every organ has a responsibility to help us digest or process certain emotions. So, the heart, its joy, compassion, but also hate. So, if we're, you know, really, really, like, a poor something that can affect the heart in Chinese medicine, in this plane, it's to do with our thinking. So, in general, any kind of cognitive... Oh, cognitive is probably not the best, but like any kind of process of thinking and digesting information and assimilating it is related to the spleen, but also our ability to empathize and sympathize with one another. So, it's kind of this, like, really connecting, like, energy. So, that's a big one for women. I'll come back to that in a minute. The kidneys is more around fear and fright and also wisdom. So, you know, it's this ability to understand the fear that might motivate us and actually alchemize that into a wise path of action, instead of just a reaction. The liver is about frustration and our irritation and also about benevolence, kindness, and kind of... Similarly to the heart, like, compassion, but in a more inner, like... You know, if the heart's like the really big and all-encompassing compassion, the liver's a little bit more on that personal level of, like, you know, I can actually have the capacity to be kind to you because I'm calm within myself. And then the lung, which... A lot to do with grief and sadness, but also courage. And so, sometimes, you know, we might have to face something really difficult or really hard in our lives, like the loss of, you know, whether it's a death or a relationship breakup or something like that. But the courage to keep going and actually, again, like, use the grief to start to become more vulnerable and, like, open to life instead of shut off from it. Like, that's kind of the real work of the lungs. And so, when we're talking menstrual issues, I really personally like to look at the liver, the spleen, and the kidneys. The heart is... rules the blood, and so it's very important. But the way it's set up in Chinese medicine is the heart is at the peak of, like, it's kind of the last place where the information goes and all these other organs are really doing the work first. So that's really to protect the heart, the heart's considered the most important organ, the most vital organ, and it has a lot of protection energetically and kind of physically in Chinese medicine. So I always think liver spleen kidneys, like, again, there's a variance of sometimes other things can be going on. But that's typically the sort of triad. So what I was taking, which is really interesting, was rashi, which is a liver tonic. And, you know, I don't really think of it as a spleen tonic, though there are a few... I've seen it referenced a couple of times. And then I was taking heshiwu, which is a yin jing tonic, a kidney tonic, right? And it's also a liver tonic. So I was basically taking two liver tonics, and then the heart and the kidneys were supported as well. All right. Yeah, so when I started to understand this, I was like, oh, so what I was really doing was ramping up the support for my kidneys, which at that point in my life, I owned two yoga studios. I was teaching up to 24 classes a week at like the worst, usually around 16 to 18, which is still a lot if you've been a yoga teacher. And I was getting up around 4 to 5 a.m. to practice. Oh. They're going to be usually quite late, sometimes having a nap in the day. I mean, anyone with a brain is like, that's exhausting, you know? I didn't have... I had a carburetor and I rode my bike everywhere. So I was very, very, very active. And I was mostly practicing a mix of inyossa and yin at the time. So I... and teaching those two styles as well. So I was not, you know, yin was probably the most rest I got in my entire week. But I was very active and, you know, the styles of yoga, I was teaching and that were popular were quite dynamic of inyossa practices, you know, handstands and things that were, you know, big on the body. And on top of that, I wasn't, you know, I was eating kind of pretty randomly because I was like in and out of classes. And again, you know, like, you're not going to go and eat a massive meal and teach you a class that feels terrible in your body. So you usually have a smoothie or something kind of light. So I could go the better part of a day without eating a substantial meal. Yeah, that really depletes you over the long run, eh? Exactly. Yeah. And so this had been going on, you know, for a period of a few years. And, you know, and then I'd had a really big breakup about two years before with someone I'd been with for a decade. So I was grieving and processing a lot of, a lot of that as well. And so the skin in Chinese medicine is connected to the lungs. And obviously if we're grieving, we're really going to have weak lungs because the energy of the lungs isn't going to be flowing well. And I wasn't handling my grief. I was squashing my grief and pretending it wasn't there because I was the breaker opera. So I didn't feel like I had the right to be sad when this person was really sad. So, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on for me on top of coming off the pier, you know, making some pretty dramatic changes to like my lifestyle and my health as well. It's starting to really, like I said, do a lot of cleansing and a lot of big, you know, I was doing liver flushes regularly and all of this stuff. So I was mobilizing a lot in my body. And what I felt happened when I took the herbs was it sort of brought everything into alignment and kind of reintegrated all of these pieces that were quite like, like separate and supported this emotional because a lot of this, right, was driven by a fear. Like, if I'm really honest, I was afraid that if I didn't push myself really hard and be the best teacher I could be and run these studios and like really, you know, make a big splash that I was going to lose everything. I was going to have no income. I was going to have no business, you know, like there's a real undercurrent year driving what looked like probably like good business behavior and, you know, but it wasn't an authentic expression of like my passion. There was like a real sense of like, got to keep everything moving, you know? And then similarly with the liver, like a lot of unprocessed emotional stuff, a lot of, you know, stagnant kind of energy around dimensions from basically my life, you know, it was a big thing. And so working with the ratio, working with the Hashi Wu, I felt some of that stuff come up, you know, I was doing, like I said, I was meditating a lot at that point as well. And so I would have a lot of really big cathartic processes where I would really see myself and I would see what I was doing. And I was, you know, kind of sometimes like, oh my God, I don't really want to see this stuff. Like it was a lot sometimes and, you know, and it led to a very big change. Like I left my businesses, I moved to buy her and I met, you know, ended up with my husband. Like things changed so dramatically for me over those couple of years. But there was a lot of, you know, and I'm not saying everyone listening needs to do that. But I was lying to myself in a lot of ways about what I needed my lifestyle to look like. I was kind of living someone else's, you know, like dream, like, because it was a, you know, it's a great experience. And I never want to look back on that part of my life and say it was bad. It wasn't. It was super fun and I felt, you know, really proud of what I achieved as well. But it wasn't a, like, it wasn't a good fit for my body, my constitution, what I needed. And especially for that season of my life where I did want to start moving toward having children. And I was thinking about, well, what does it mean to start a family from a nourished place instead of from a depleted place, you know? And so that kind of kidney liver theme was really big for me. And then I probably, so the next order I did, how I said, I really want to get 500 dollar order. I got this herb, good lion's mane, which I didn't know a heap about at the time beyond that it was a mushroom. But I knew it was kind of good for, you know, like the brain and all that kind of stuff. But I kind of just got it because it, you know, was in the package. Like there was a couple of things he had and that I would just try this one. And I got another one called Shagua, which lions manes not want to take a lot personally. It's again, not what I'm super drawn to, but Shagua is, I really love Shagua. And again, Shagua is quite a strong jing kind of kidney supporting tonic, but also both of these are quite, you know, they support the spleen as well. And that was like that digestive piece for me was, you know, I thought I couldn't eat gluten. Like there was a lot of stuff going on for me with my digestion that I thought was like what in Western medicine or in the tropathy would be like allergies or intolerances and that kind of thing. So I was really struggling with, you know, I thought there were lots of things I couldn't eat at that point. And I remember talking to Mason about it and he said to me, well, I was like, oh, it's like, you know, this thing where my body just like attacks itself. And it was like, well, why would you, why do you attack itself? Like, why would it want to do that? And it was such a simple question that I was like, yeah, why would it be a good one, you know? And questioning the narrative of autoimmune diseases. Exactly. And I would been told that I was a celiac, right? And I was like, oh my God, I've been gluten-free since I was 17. And, you know, so I'm sitting here with this guy who's like this health guy who's telling me in a very like innocent way, where he's asking me, he didn't even tell me. He just said, why, why would you put me, why would you do that? And I had to like literally cut back and I was like, that's a really good question. And I sat with that for a long time. I still sit with that because I think about, you know, the implication of, you know, autoimmune, you know, self attack, like self harm within the body. I'm someone with a background of eating disorders, like self harm. Like, yeah, 101, I know, I know that modality. Like, I used to drink myself till I was under the table when I was a teenager. Like, I used to put myself in really risky situations with men. Like, I know what self harm is. And this is another way of me doing that to myself. You know, like, this is where I came to just more subtle. And yeah, not as direct and very, very subtle, right? Like, energetically, exactly the same, but on a totally different level. And then I had to take responsibility for that. I was like, fuck, I'm doing this to myself, you know? And so, again, the herbs, like, opened up that conversation within me in a way that, like, yoga and bodywork and all these things. And sort of, I'd like met these parts of myself, you know, and I want to, I'm a very big believer in like a multi-dimensional approach to any kind of healing, because I just think we're multi-dimensional beings. And very rarely is one thing the thing, you know? Like, I just don't see that to be the case. But I just, for me, the herbs, like, put the puzzle pieces together in a way that I hadn't been able to do. Like, I'd had little insight. Because, you know, I maybe had soy sauce once at a restaurant. And I didn't get sick. And I was like, oh, maybe I'm not a celiac, you know? But I didn't, you know, like, I'd had those inklings. But I'd not ever, like, gone and eaten a loaf of bread. Because I was like, I don't want to, like, put myself, you know, in that situation. Yeah, exactly. And so, like, those kinds of thought processes started to happen for me of like. And so, you know, and again, this is the spleen energy. This is insight and intellect and, like, the ability to start to learn. I talk about it as being, like, we're born with a curriculum. Just like we go to school to learn something or to do a course. And not everyone gets it, right? Like, some people, you're like, how are we in the same course? And you don't understand any of this. And I understand, you know, what I understand. Like, it's, and I'm sure you've had that experience with, like, yoga trainings and stuff. And it's one person that just doesn't get it. And you're like, how, you know? And that, we've all been there. But that's, like, usually a sign that, like, for some reason, you know, this, like, I would usually be like, what's going on with your spleen? Like, what's going on with, like, your shin? Like, how do we get your heart and your intellect connected again and plugged into one another? You know, like, what's, what's that disconnect? And, you know, I, again, like, I'm not going to go into my therapy here, but, like, I had to really look at lots of things from, because, you know, spleen's around nurturance. How do we receive nurturance? How do we give nurturance? Do we overgive? Hello, yoga teachers. Like, I worked with a bunch of people who were chronic overgivers. Like, my entire industry was, like, full of people that were, like, chronic overgivers. And I'm like, yeah, massive spleen deficiency. Massive amount of energy lost in having no boundaries. Having, you know, energetic boundaries. Like, having shitty capacity to, like, know what's mine and what's yours, you know? And I think, you know, yoga and health really attract people like that, because there's a sensitivity in us that's, you know, one of my teachers, you know, she's, it's, I think it's someone else's quote, but she says, like, heal a heal theirself, you know, like, before you go and try and tell anyone else how to heal, like, do your own work. And, yeah, I think that's the big, that was such a big piece for me. It was starting to be like, I can't keep, you know, perpetuating these behaviors and patterns and then expecting a different result. You know, it's like that Einstein quote of, like, thinking you're going to get a different outcome with the same behavior, like, creative problem, you know? And so I was really having to look at, well, yeah, how do I, how do I learn to be boundary? How do, you know, so this was all spleen stuff that came up to me and I, you know, that was, again, a period of time and a lot to do with my daughter being born to. And, you know, and I want to be really clear, like, I was able to eat gluten fairly quickly. Like, I think within probably six months of mace and asking me that question, I was like, I'm going to try gluten and see what happens, you know? And, you know, there was this whole journey around that for me because it like opened, I was like, hang on, why do I demonize so many foods? Like I was praised, you know, in this really, like, health conscious kind of way. So I was like, everything was the bad food or a good food, you know? So I really had to unpick a lot of that, you know, it was like this whole cascade of things. But like the piece for me was, you know, understanding like the herbs gave that they gave energy to the parts of me that needed to like be met. And I was able to kind of meet them because I had the capacity, you know? And I think that's what so many people lack is their actual energy to do this work because, you know, you are, you are busy and tired and, you know, on all the time. And that's the kind of like culture perpetuates that, I know it's no different in Europe. I know it's no different in America. Like America is almost worse than anywhere I've ever been, you know? And yeah, and even like for me, even where I live, like moving from the city where I was, even though it was a fairly relaxed city to like where we live now, that was a massive change in energy for me and my body and my nervous system were like, "Oh, thank God, like we needed that," you know? But I was so used to that heightened state of being, you know, even though I kind of knew in the back of my head it wasn't great for me. I was like, "La, la, la, la, la, I'm just going to keep going on my little like mouth wheel." So I think it always, or like often for a lot of people, it takes some time to realize where we're at and especially with our productivity driven culture system society that we're living in, in the West it's like, yeah, to realize to admit that and then really look at ourselves and see where we are. Yeah, it takes honesty towards yourself and as you said, it takes a lot of energy to work through that and if you're depleted in the first place, I mean, yeah, it can be tricky, right? So yeah, and I think something I've noticed and like, you know, I'm not, I don't want to paint a picture of like living this idyllic, never stressed life, that's not, but what I learned in that decade especially and through like pretty hard, you know, my 20s were filled with, I think I had like three pretty bad, I would call them like nervous breakdowns, like on the floor, a complete mess, don't have any energy calling an act that like midnight, no, what do I do? I'm coming into more and help me, like, you know, really depleted myself to the point of, you know, being quite unwell a few times and I put myself in hospital when I was 18 because I was like drinking and partying so much and not, you know, I didn't even know I had a kidney infection, like stuff like that, like I just, you know, I was not connected to my body person, so when we really clear on that, I've come a very long way, like, if anyone can do it, like, I can do it, I can do it, because I was bulimic, I was like, if I ever have babies, I'm gonna have drugs, you know, like, I, no, I've had no drugs and I've had a free bath and a natural home bath, like, that's so amazing, that's so amazing, yeah, like, I was kind of raised by, like, a really health con to the mum, but it came with a lot of baggage, you know, and so my reaction to that was to go the other way and to, like, take all the drugs and party and, like, do all the things and, you know, kind of, again, then I had to swing back around and be like, well, no, that's not the answer, like, what is, and then it was like, I'm gonna work really hard and I'm gonna, like, you know, buy a house when I'm 20, which I did, like, I did all this crazy shit now that I look back, I'm like, what was I even doing, you know, but I was on this, like, self-flagellation, you know, like, the autoimmune, right, I'm like, I'm gonna, you know, kill myself to prove that I am valid, I don't, you know, I didn't even know what the real, and I don't care, like, it doesn't matter what the story is, because what's happened through understanding that and then learning to be in my body and learning to work with, like, these medicines that are intelligent, like, they're not, you know, like, the pill, they're not this kind of pharmaceutical thing that's manufactured, you know, I believe they have an intelligence, but it's not the intelligence I want to be playing with, like, it's a different kind of elutate, you've got intelligence, you want to feed yourself. Yeah, and it's like, that's a choice that we make to participate with that type of energetic exchange, and I'm not saying in every way that that stuff's bad, but I'm like, the less I have to do with that, the better, in my experience, and, you know, the more I have to do with learning, I call it learning to shorten the pendulum swings, so for me, I was going really, really, really far in this direction, then I was crashing and having to, like, you know, take a sleeping pill and, like, and then not have to go, you know, then I'd go back over here, and then I'd go back over here, and I'd just be freaking doing these all the time. Yeah, these extremes. Exactly, so it's still yin and yang, we still move between periods of excess and periods of stillness, we still meet, you know, I'm not a sitter-rounder, really, like, I'm not someone who's ever used to, you know, remember my acupuncture, who's like, we're not going to sit in the corner and grow moss, are you? I was like, no, this is not my personality, but I'm not going to kill myself for some stuff anymore, either, like, I've learned where the edges are, and so, you know, I wrote a course at the start of this year in my first trimester with two kids over an eight-week period, but I knew that I then needed to have a month of, like, absolute stillness, you know, very little work to just balance that out, you know, and I made a lot of things, a lot of decisions through that month of, or that eight-week story of, like, you know, I'm not going to socialize, I'm not going to, like, you know, I really had to sit with, like, how much capacity do I really have? And I really wanted to make that course, because it was burning in me, I'd had it, I'd had the idea for years, it was like, in me alive, and I wanted to put it, I wanted to birth it before I breath this baby, because I was like, I know if I had this baby, it's going to be another year, because I know what it's like, you know, with little kids, and it's like, I'm just going to, and I had the creative life force and the drive to do it, but I could also feel that there was the temptation to just do it all night, like, which is something I'm really good at, you know, I'm the kind of person, like, the first Superfease website I built over, like, I stayed up to four in the morning, three nights in a row, and built the thing, you know, and it was like, yeah, he was like, well, okay, you were right, it's done now, like, it's done, and I'm that kind of person, I'm just like, if that makes me done, I'll get it done, but I get it that you have to balance the extremes, yeah, I get a good picture. Well, and that's what I mean, like, if I've had to learn this, like, and I'm really extreme, like, people that are just like, even a little bit less extreme than that, like, it's a big thing to learn, and, you know, I'm, you know, I'm proud of the fact that I have the capacity to handle a lot, like, it's something that I really like about myself, that I can handle very big things, and I can handle a lot of stress, but I don't need to, you know, I can choose to actually only keep that as, like, a superpower for really stressful situations and, like, emergencies, and otherwise, I can just balance myself through, you know, the other night, my little boy woke up in the middle night, I was having trouble getting back to sleep, and, like, in the past, and this has happened to me, like, years ago, 10 years ago, I would have got into a mental spiral about it, and I would have, you know, I've got to get up in the morning with the kids, and I've got to do this, and I've got to do that, and I'm going to be really exhausted, and I would have sat there and driven myself nuts. I got up, I made a cup of rashi, I, like, sat with my body, like, really in my body, I was like, what do I need? I was like, oh, my feet are really cold, you know, I'm kind of in bed with the kids, so maybe I just need a little bit of space from that, so I just want to lay in my own bed, and did, like, a yoga knee drop, drank my rashi, and then I was like, I'm tired, and I went back to sleep, and, like, it was fine, because I didn't let myself go into the drama of, like, the story of "Oh, well, I'm up, you know, two in the morning, and I have to get up to sleep." I love that, and that's so valuable, because I know how it is waking up at night, and, yeah, you're-- I'm not going to get to the clock, and just brushing yourself even more, and, yeah. Yeah, and this is what we do, like, we do this in so many ways, and this is a really relevant thing to, like, women, like, we're so achieved to those energies, right? Like, if it's a full moon, there's a lot of yang energy in the atmosphere, and so if you're feeling really alert and really on, that's because you're responding to the environment, and actually nothing wrong with you, and what we would have done in a more traditional culture is we would have used the light in the evening to, like, probably dance and, you know, have a festival or do something, but you can also understand that if you have-- if you're a female and you're bleeding on a full moon, you're going to have less yin in your body and less blood, and it's going to be really hard to go to sleep. Like, that's a really common phenomenon, right? That the blood loss through menstruation means that there's going to be less yin substance, because fluid is yin in Chinese medicine, so-- and blood is especially yin, like, it's very yin, so it's like we're losing, you know, so it's always really common. Anything like a hot flash or something in your postpartum, or, you know, like, they're really common because, again, we've lost a lot of yin through the birth process and the blood being lost, and so it's actually pretty normal to sort of be regulating the body to be regulating with bringing more yang, like, well, the yang's rising, and we're trying to build more yin, so that's why we rest in our postpartum, like, these things are just very, like, cause and effect, like, they're very logical, and so I see that with, like, people will be like, you know, whenever I'm bleeding, I just can't sleep, and I'm like, yeah, well, you're probably not-- like, you're probably tapping out your yin through your cycle, and then when you're bleeding, like, you're extra depleted, so that has you, woo, that I was talking about, that's a yin tonic. Okay. And, like, I needed that point, you know, again, I don't really use-- I actually, we don't, I don't use that herb anymore, cause it's banned in Australia, it's a whole story, but, um, I, but I also, like, I bring yin in in other ways, yoganitra yin yoga, you know, I was doing yin yoga, but I was probably doing it, like, maybe two or three times a week out of, you know, doing a whole shitload of vinyasa, bike riding, you know, swimming, high intensity, whatever, it's called, like, burpee kind of things, you know, it's not doing a lot of yang, and then a little bit of yin, you know, um, and so I kind of, I've flipped that almost completely on its head, I do, but ever do anything dynamic, it's, like, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and then if I'm doing, like, my practice is usually very slow, occasionally I might-- Sorry, I think it's such a good advice for a lot of women here, because, well, I think often it's still this weight loss goal, which is okay, um, but we think, oh yeah, I'm gonna go for a run, and, or do some hit exercises, or aerobics, or whatever it is, and, um, but actually we're depleting ourselves even more, and our body is trying to hold on to whatever it has, so we're not losing weight, and it's, it's a very, very natural, um, process, and so I wanted to just jump in here, because I, so I went to my first year in training with Paul Grillean Thailand in 2013, and I rocked up, you know, I'd come off the back of the breakup, and I was pretty, like, exhausted, and like, puffy, like, I didn't, I'm not, I'm not really wanting to get that, I'm quite a long, lean person by nature, but I was feeling like I was carrying more weight than I usually did, and just not feeling great in my body, right? Like, I just felt heavy, and tired, and sad, and I left that training, I was caught, it looked like I'd been doing, I don't even know what you would do to get caught, like, a bikini challenge, or something, like, I was like, so shredded, and it was, I literally did yin, like, two to three times a day, I did one big room class the entire time I was there, so three weeks, and I did, I walked to get a massage most days during lunchtime, so in the entire time I was there, the entire cardiovascular activity, oh, and I did one of Paul's, Paul does, like, a chigongyi kind of style yang yoga practice, so I did one of those, one bikram class, because I'd never done bikram, and it was free, and like, walked to get a massage, in the entire time, I did nothing else, I didn't, I didn't do a burpee, I didn't do anything, it was all yin, and I looked ridiculous, I got back and people were like, like, you're like a supermodel, like, what are you been doing, like, oh, you know, it was just, and I had a tan, because it was Thailand, and whatever, but like, but it was crazy to me, and I was interviewing another yoga teacher the other day, she said the same thing, she was 10 kilos, heavier, she did her yin training, and it just, like, it just dropped, because her body was so stressed, was what it took, and that you finally got the relaxation, the stress hormones dropped. Chinese medicines, kidney spleen, hold water in the body, one of the things yin does for us is it shuts the brain off, like, there's no, you know, it's quiet, there's not much talking, there's not anything to do, especially if you're disciplined and you don't have your phone with you when you practice at home, you know, like, it's, it shuts off the, that process, and then, and then the nervous system benefits, right, like, you're dropped in, so, like, to me, yoga nature, yin, even restorative, like, whatever those practices are that bring you into that place of stillness, and trains, like, the biggest thing for me is it trained my body to respond, like, in and from that place, I was able to access that place not being in my practice, and that took a little while, but that was the biggest gift for me with yin was I was able to, like, be still and be in a yin state when I still am, like, it's one of the best things about that practice for me, while I'm in my daily life, so, you know, I think the patient and things help with this too, but the embodiment of yin, because it's very visceral and you're in a physical shape, and you have to feel like the sensation of that and learn to sort of be with it, you can't, if you push it away, it's very uncomfortable, as many people will know, and if you, like, try to ignore it, or, you know, mentally, la la la, it doesn't work, so there's, like, really, you learn to meet it, you learn to meet the discomfort, you learn to meet yourself, and, and so, that process for me has been really transformational, because it, you know, again, over, so, I would probably have been seriously, I practiced in a bit before I trained with Paul, but, like, seriously practicing it since 2013, and I would say, like, more devoted to it as an art, you know, probably since, like, 2014, 15, I, like, it's, it's such a, it's been such a gift to me, because, you know, I'm still challenged by it, like I said, I'm not a naturally still person, and I come to, like, as me, and I'm like, ah, and then I have to meet, like, I have to, you know, meet myself there, and then, but I often describe it as diving underneath a wave, and I know not everyone's, you know, spent a lot of time in the ocean, but where I'm from, it's very, like, we live in the ocean, and, like, you're at the top, and the waves are bashing you, it's very scary, and very uncomfortable, and then you go underneath, and it's like, none of that shit out there is happening, like, it's like, there's not even, like, all of that craziness at the surface is not there anymore, you're in this completely calm, quiet, supportive, like, ground is there, yeah, and it's like, all of that can still be happening, like, it's not going to stop, it's the ocean, but you're okay, because you're down here, like, you know, kind of in it, but not in it, you know, and that's been my experience of, like, of living in, and bringing more of that into my life, I guess, is just, you know, having, and yeah, I still love a good, like, I love a good vinyasa class, every now and then I'll go into a shtunga class, like, I love a good primary serious practice, like, I'm not trying to say, never do fun stuff, and never do hard stuff, and, you know, but I really noticed it after my second child, like, I was doing a lot of us and our, and a lot of, so, when I was talking about that victim-y kind of period, I was like, really, really, yeah, so I had a, I had my first period with him, I didn't get my second one, and then I had a really victim-y one, and in that time I'd started doing a lot of, like, what I can see to quite fun exercise, like, high intensity, like, you know, cardio-y kind of was strengthy, you know, that kind of stuff, like, I enjoy it, I really do, it's fun, my brain likes it, but I noticed my body, I was getting really adrenalized, I was feeling like my sleep was affected, and then I was feeling, like, more exhausted, and then I started to feel more anxious and more depleted, and then I didn't get my period, and then the next time I got my period when I sort of slowed every, I started to back off when I didn't get my period, I suspected something was going on, like, within terms of using too much of my blood and my yin, and then I, my second period, I was really like, me, me, about everything, and I was like, oh, this is like, you know, this is me pushing, even though it's something I like, it's pushing myself part, like, I'm not listening to what I need at this point, and so that was, you know, that was a great reminder of the stuff that I teach, which is like, you know, like, you don't always want to hear, you know, what's true, unfortunately, and you know, you know this from like, I know you've trained with practice, and it's like, a call for person does not want to do, I've made a movement, like, they don't want anything to do with that shit, they want to lie down and like, blound around and have a great, have a great life. We're always, you know, track what I want to stop. Yeah, we're always attracted to what we like, right, but we have to listen to what we need, and I think these words were just like these, like, perfect closing words for our first chapter of this conversation, and it's such a good reminder for any woman listening, you know, slow down, I think it's a general advice you can give to women out there, probably to men as well, but because we're in this, when you say, oversped, overly speedy society, so yeah, I think a lot of problems can be fixed by slowing down. And yeah, and like you said, like, the, you know, knowing what the, the thing that you probably don't want to do, like, is what you need. So that's kind of, yeah, the medicine is in, like, the opposite of what your talents is probably are. And that, you know, again, that's a very general statement, but I've found it to be almost universally true. And it is applicable to men too. And I, you know, I know that's not really what we're talking about right now, but like, yeah, I see it in men as well. And many men I've spoken to, you know, I run 40 kilometers every like second day, and I do this, and I do that, and I'm a vegan, and, and, and, and, and why do I have cracks on my heels and bald? And like, you've got nothing left, like you're using everything you have to, to, you know, do this incredible feats of human achievement. Yes. But, you know, at what cost, and I'm, you know, I do want to say like, life is to be lived, and I don't believe we should just like sit in the corner and grow moss. Like, I don't think that's the solution. But I, like I said, I think it's just about this pendulum, like every person needs to know what their like edges and when like how, you know, can I come back from this? Like, and that was for me, the big thing. Like, all right, I know I can do a big eight week push, but then I need to have like a full week chill, you know, and then I'll, I'm doing it at the moment, I'm in a bit of a push, and then I'm like, you know, end of July, I'm out, you know, I'm gonna go spend two months preparing to have a baby, like, and so that's kind of how I've learned, you know, and maybe talk to me and might be different, but that's how I've learned to navigate this stuff. And, and so now I don't need to go and die and call a naturopath and cry and, you know, I don't need to do any of that stuff. I just, I have a rest, you know, I have a nap, or I, you know, go to the beach for a couple of days and like get in nature or, you know, whatever, like eat good food. Like, you know, it doesn't take me much to kind of recalibrate anymore. Yeah, I think that's how it should be. Actually, you don't have to book a spa weekend, but balance your life in a way that you can get it. Maybe, well, that's an exaggeration, maybe, but just, as you said, you're having a cup of Reishi. Maybe that can be your spa moment that like, completely re nourishes, replenishes you in that moment. And because everything else is quite in balance. And yeah. When the things that remind you, like, that's what, for me, part of the part of what Reishi does for me is reminds me of my value system and like my, you know, it's part of that like recognition of I'm doing, you know, you've helped me understand this. And I'm coming back to you as a reminder that I kind of like my practice. And I'm sure you have a similar relationship with yoga. It's like, you don't ever stop practicing yoga. It's not like you suddenly are yoga. Like it's like, it's this constant meeting. You meet yoga every time you have to meet yourself through that practice in a different way. And so it's like, I, you know, Reishi is, you know, I'm not a massive fan of this whole self-care thing, but like, it is that for me. It's like, it's a reminder of what I'm choosing to embody in this lifetime. And she helped teach me that. And then she's helping me to remember that as I go through, you know, my life. And you know, yes, great. She's a liver tonic and an immune tonic and a heart tonic and all this stuff. But like, it's that actual responsibility of like, Oh, thank you for reminding me. I know, I know this, like, I'm going to come back to like, that's the beat. And I, that's how I use practitioners. Like, that's how I use yoga teachers even now. Like, it's like, remind me of what I know that I can remember better, you know, and then like, let me try and integrate this for as long as possible before I come back and like, you know, try and like, I had an acupuncturist who used to say, like, at the beginning, come and say me every two weeks, but I want, like, I'd like you to not have to see me every two weeks for a while, you know, like, and then let's see how that goes. And then I would go for four weeks and I'd be like, Oh, yeah, I'm feeling pretty out of balance. But like, I can feel how I put myself out of balance. I can feel, you know, and that was, that was a man I've spent two years seeing this guy. And that was a massive process for me of learning to not rely on a practitioner to put me back to base, you know, but we back together. And so those are those are the things that I've found really helpful. It's a ratio for me. It's been like a teacher in that way. Yeah, and was the first experience I had of working with a herb in that way prior to that, I'd always approached it naturopathically, or even in a Chinese medicine way as like a fixing a problem with very little, actually, I'm quite ashamed to say very little regard for the plant, even though I've made tinctures and like worked with herbs and garden and like, I never really thought of the plant as having, you know, a spirit or an essence, really like, thought about plant medicines being like that, but not generally plants, you know, and ratio again, like that was a big teaching for me was like, whoa, like trees, flowers, plant, like, it's not just the ones we eat, but like, they all have contributed, like, you know, again, that was like a bit of a journey for me of like, whoa, I'm actually completely disconnected from this entire kingdom that is here communicating with me and that was a big part of that for me as well, because we do a lot of work with nature and if I'm organized, I do have a post series coming up on that like how, like, why does being near the ocean feel so good? Well, because it's like, really good quality tea, you know, and it's like, because water holds a certain consciousness and because water communicates with us and wants to support us and we are water and like, you know, so water in us and like, so there's this whole, you know, trees want to help us, they're like, kin to us and, but you know, we don't really have that, like, the kilts had that and, you know, I'm sure like, you're traditional, I don't, are you sort of Viking-y or like, from that, you know, your ancestry? Probably, I'm not even sure why, I have a Danish ancestor, but I often think like, before we had Christianity and before we had, you know, we would have had a very nature-based connection to the land and to the endemic species of the region and like, you know, the Celts are probably the European tradition, I understand them most in terms of this and you know, they, trees were people to them, like, they, every single one of them had a different personality and a different, like, they had a different relationship with them and they used them for different things and they were, you know, in relationship to them and so that, you know, the fact that we don't even consider that, like, we can have a tree and just like, chop it down, don't even think about it again, like very different, um, brutal, yeah, relationships, so. So, well, thank you for all of this, until now, I have to say, um, that was, that was so beautiful, the last part, what you said, I mean, it was all beautiful, but especially, you know, talking about this connection and the spirit of the plants and, um, I really see it as an invitation to, I mean, if you're listening now, have a look at the super-feased website, there are many, many articles as well, they have a blog, so read through them, read through the, the different mushrooms or the various mushrooms, the tonic herbs and also take into account what Tani told us here about woman's health and then see what feels right, I would say, I mean, using the actual knowledge, but also bring in your intuition and see what feels right, try it out, maybe order something, maybe order the right, she and see how it helps you, how it helps you remind yourself, remember yourself, so thank you. And on your question you asked earlier, like women in general, like, I, so that's plain kidney and liver triad, like the, we designed the I am guy or the women's blend to speak to that, so, um, the whole purpose of why we put that together was my husband and I, I'd been through post partum with my daughter and I was kind of like, I'm using like these herbs kind of in combination and it would be great just to have something I could drink wasn't like, you know, four different packets, you kind of get out in the morning with a toddler or whatever, like it was, you know, it's kind of just really came out of necessity and we joke about it being like a herbal multivitamin. And so the thing I want to say with women, and this is another like, oh, sometimes for women, but it's, you can take a hundred days to, to really shift a woman's cycle. And the reason is that we're kind of off, often operating like from, you know, not from behind the able, but we're kind of like the, the rebuilding and the way in which blood is made in the body and the way in which resources are distributed in the body. Like we, we often, if we're depleted, we need to give ourselves at least a couple of months to really see like the benefit of, especially I find with things like herbs, or even like if you're going to take liver capsules or something like that, like it can take a little while to see the shifts because the body has to kind of come back from often below baseline to then a place of regulation. So I usually say, like, give it a hundred days. And that's actually unrelated is a Taoist practice of doing a herb for a hundred, like kind of fasting on a herb, we're using a herb for a hundred days. But I actually didn't learn that from, I mean, I did learn that from the Taoist tradition, but I also learned from the Western tradition that there's this kind of roughly three month cycle that, that women's bodies go through in terms of especially healing menstrual and kind of common like menstrual issues. Again, there's really complex menstrual stuff like endo and, you know, I want to PCOS and they're really complex patterns and they're very individual. So as a general rule, like stuff like that, I'd probably go and see a good practitioner if you're newer to this world because you're going to want to start to understand, you know, and a good acupuncturist who specializes in women's health should be able to help you out with that. But then for like a more general, like, I just don't want to feel like cranky. I don't want bad skin when I'm bleeding. I don't want, you know, that feeling of heaviness and whatever other, you know, I think PMS like bloating, frustration, like all of that sort of stuff that like I am Gaia or if it's in America, the women's blend. Like I said, the name may change because we are in the middle of a thing with that. But you know, something like that, it's like one product. If you got probably like either there's a two sizes of, yeah, it's like a really small usual trial size product. And then there's like 100 grams and then a bigger bag that you go between 100 gram or 250. And one of those is like that's going to be enough to give you a sense of whether that's going to work for you. Some people need a little bit more support on the jing side of things, especially if there is this kind of chronic over, you know, like kidney depletion and kind of like re-overdoing thing. And again, you'll, you kind of know, like, I love that you said intuition because we're very big on, you know, like that question Mason asked me, like, well, why would your body attack itself? Like starting to get the person to think, well, you know, what is really at the root of, you know, isn't that I'm really exhausted and I need more nourishment and support and like rest or is it actually like I do have a really bad food allergy and I need support to take that out of my diet. And you know, like, you'll know and I think that's the thing with a lot of us is we do start to have an intuition or a knowing once we've worked on cultivating that trust in the body for a little while. So yeah, I'd probably start with I am guy or jing jing is really popular with women we find because they are a lot of the time coming back from pretty severe adrenal depletion. And just on the like, and that's so that would have, that's like what the Heshiwu was doing for me. It was restoring me enough that I could actually have the energy to sort of start to do the processing and healing that kind of thing. And so I like I take jing now instead of Heshiwu, we originally had jing in the Heshiwu mace has replaced it with other yin jing herbs that are just as effective. So that's kind of what I would personally say is to start with one of those. So the jing or the I am guy. And again, jing is like really exhausted need to like sort out my depletion first. Whereas I would say the guy is a little bit more like just kind of really frustrated with these kind of chronic menstrual issues. Not really any, you know, I wouldn't say I'm completely exhausted, completely touched out. I'm just like, I don't know why this is happening to me. It doesn't seem, you know, I'm pretty healthy. I'm living pretty well. Like that would be more of an I am guy situation to me because that's just going to bring those main organs into harmony and start to bring that balance into the system and create that flow and clear out that stagnation stuff. So that's kind of how I would break it down for women in general. Like again, you can, and people are so welcome to reach out to me on my personal Instagram. I'm happy to reply. I'm pretty, you know, usually pretty good at replying to them. But I really enjoy, like I said, like that people trust us and give us like their questions. And, you know, it's, it's a taught me so much about the body and opened up so much for my education. Because when I go and study with practitioners or work with entrepreneurs or a mentor, I'm able to like, like, well, I've heard of this thing happening. How do you know, how would we work on that? Or how would we treat that? Or what's, what's the pattern? Like, why is that happening to this person? And, you know, you were saying that yourself at the beginning, like, are these things coming up for me? Because it's the season or is it because like, you know, if something else is going on? And, and there are so many things like that. But a lot of the time, especially in the West, like I think because of our lifestyles, where so many of us are so detached even from what's going on in the seasons that it's like, it's actually just like come back to the rule basics first, like, are you getting enough rest? You're getting enough food, you're getting enough water, you know, you're over exercising, you know, are you, you know, all of those kinds of really obvious things. But I think for a lot of people, you know, they, it's easy to forget how simple health can be like. And that's, to me, the herbs just like, remind, like I said, they're just reminders, they bring us back to like, oh, that's what it, you know, when I have a ratio in the middle of the night, I'm like, I feel really calm and quiet again. And I remember what it's like to not be like, overthinking and, you know, worried about waking up and all this stuff. And so I'm able to sort of embody that and, you know, take that into bed. And so that's kind of what I feel like. Yeah. So if I was going to say, you know, exhaustion jing, more of just the general women's health, the Gaia blend. And then, you know, for sure, if you'd really drawn to a single herb, and that's how I personally work with the herbs a lot these days is like, I just wait for them to call me, I'm like, oh, Shaga. And, you know, the other day, I said to myself, we don't have any Shaga at home. And, you know, he brought some home that night. And I was just like, I've really craved this. And I've had that happen actually in all of my pregnancies around the second trimester. I'm not quite sure why, like, there's no real logical reason for that to me. But it's been something that's happened every time. So I'm just, I lean into that, and I take a lot of Shaga through until I don't want it anymore. And then I'm sort of, you know, go back to maybe ratio or whatever else I was taking. So, and I found, once you've taken the herbs for a couple, like I usually say with everything, like, you know, a kind of moon cycle, like 28 days a month, like give yourself enough time to really experience, especially as women, like, what is the energetic experience of this herb through, like a cycle, like how do I feel, like, and give it enough time to really, like, meet you and for you to meet it, especially if you are really busy. And then, you know, I'm like, that, you know, once you've tried a few of them and had that experience, you can start, you'll start to notice, oh, yeah, like, that, you know, I, for me, Shaga's got this kind of grounding and like, deeply, cellulically nourishing kind of feeling. And so it's like, that makes sense to me that I would crave that in pregnancy at some point, because it's like, that's what's going on for me. It's like, you know, come back, nourish, mean, realize, like, really raw, like, really rich, you know, feels like almost like compost, like really nourishing the soil of my body. Whereas, like, I said, it's more, it has more of a, like, calming and sort of spiritual experience for me. So yeah, you'll start to get a relationship with them and then, and not every herb is for everybody. I want to be really clear on that. Like, there are herbs, you know, I've literally never taken I've tasted neural nectar, but I've never taken it. It's just not something I'm interested in working with. It's, you know, a combination of really powerful brain tonic herbs, which my partner designed because of his mother and her aneurysm and like to keep the blood flow moving to the brain. And I think it's incredibly important with people that, like, rave about it. They think it's like the best thing that ever happened to them. But for me, I just have a really strong no to that product, you know, so I don't even know. It's, it's interesting because I tried the neural nectar and I didn't feel it really strongly. So yeah, yeah, I guess it's, it's a lot about trying the things, how they, how they speak to you. Because, for example, I have some experience with Roliola and Ashwagandha. And I would say for me personally, I felt the Roliola stronger and they have a similar in some regards, yeah, a similar effect on the body. And it was interesting for me to see how I or how my body responds to them differently. So where I was, I would say, yes, definitely in a stressful time, I could, or if I see a stressful time coming up, I could prop myself with some Roliola. And I've done that. I don't know. I'm not sure about the Ashwagandha effect yet. So it's really a try now. That's how it feels more yin. So I use it as a rebuilding tonic. I really don't understand, you know, I go against the herbal grain with this, because a lot of people use it as a kind of like, you're describing Roliola like a preventative stress tonic, but I don't, I see it as almost a restorer, like a bringing. And I mean, look, it's a rassayana, right? So it's about restoring the ojas and renourishing the system. And so I love it postpartum. Like it is one of those like rat-and-dye herbs for me postpartum. Give it to my daughter after like big times with her school. You know, like I often give it to her in the holidays when I want to like just really nourish her and support her. But I, Roliola to me is a way like more of a, yeah, like insulating you against stress. And I feel like it's a little bit more, I find it more of a young energy, like it's a little bit more juice to it to me, a bit more substance, a bit more structure. And so I don't like, I actually am not, again, not a massive fan of Roliola. It's not ever sat super well in my body, but I remember the feeling of it being very strong and very sturdy. Interesting. Whereas to me, Ashwaganda has a lot more of it. You know, I don't think I can call it a yin herb because I don't know if that's completely, it's more of an Ayavader curve. And we brought it in, you know, again, just because we both really like it and we wanted to have it in the range, not really for any other reason. But yeah, like, and I respect that Ayavader and Chinese medicine don't really see, you know, I guess they see herbs in a similar way, but not the same. So I don't try, I try not to say yin and yang, but it's, I often reference the feeling of Ashwaganda as a more yin nourishing, building kind of herb. I wouldn't, like, I personally wouldn't use it as a, yeah, it's not, it's not something I would, like, I would want to take to like, you know, if I knew I was having a really stressful time, I'd probably use it more as a restoring, like, that's how I think about it. I reach for it. Like, so when I'm in my busy phase, I use more yang herbs. And then when I'm in my four week rest, I'm using my yin herbs to rebuild and nourish medicine. So Ashwaganda, then in the, in the rebuilding phase and then in the yang phase, just as a... Yeah, I would use, I would use our Jing formula, but you could use, like, rodeo or you could use, you know, like, good. That's kind of, again, this, that's just my, how my body works and feels good with using herbs and, like, how I, because I find a lot of the time. And again, this is kind of the problem with how Western medicine, and this is what I really struggled with when I was studying Western Chinese in the community curves. I was like, whoa, they don't really talk to each other. Like, Western medicine's saying, it's an adaptogen. They're all adaptogens. They're all good for stress. And it's like, well, they are, but it's not, they don't do the same thing for stress and stress and so many forms and what even is... Of course, it's right, root causes, looking at the root causes. And like, what type of stress is? Is it really intense physical stress? Is it, like, emotional stress? You know, I know that the body has, like, it's chemical pathways, but it's different. Like, if I'm going to do something really physically challenging versus something emotionally challenging, it's a, I have a very different response in my body and the rebound from that or the, like, the net effect of that is very different. Like, and so those two things, for me, require a really different herbal approach. Like, I'm not, you know, I'm not reaching for the same herbs to support those two different experiences. So I find that the Western, you know, and we struggle with this a lot because we sell tonic herbs, which technically the Western kind of system wants to go act like adaptogens and, you know, yes, that's valid and they are in the Western model adaptions, but where they came from and how they were discovered and the people who worked with them first and who got to know them and, you know, again, like, I believe spoke to them and were spoken to by them and like had a, like a right relationship with them. They weren't just like, oh, this has lots of great stress supporting chemicals in them. You know, they were like, wow, this plant has something to offer us as humans, like, it offers humanity something. You know, and I feel like there's, that's a very different way to meet a herb and it is to like, pull it an adaptogen, say it's good for stress. And so, you know, I kind of struggle a little bit with that, that model and I, we, you know, it's something we bump up against all the time because our, even our herbal regulation system in Australia wants to say certain things about what herbs can and can't do because of the Western mind, you know, and how we categorize. So, you know, I think we are compartmentalizing things which, yeah, which is, you know, both are valid. I don't want to discount adaptogens. Like, I'm not saying that research isn't valid and I don't, but it's not, it's just not how I've come to relate, you know, I remember being really into that when I first, you know, probably, again, like 10, 12 years ago, like, reading all the books and adaptogens and, you know, having a pantry, like, you know, similar rodeo and ashwagandha, like having like that disgusting tasting powder of ashwagandha, like that is to try and put in smoothies and be like, you know, kind of first hearing about ratios and adaptogen and, you know, I'm trying to remember what other I just had, you know, a little pantry of like, disgusting herbs, many of them were very disgusting that I read about from a naturopathic background of like being, you know, adaptogenic and supporting stress and thinking, I'm stressed, I'm going to take my adaptogens, you know, and I don't know, like, probably helped to some degree, but I didn't, I didn't feel them how I feel helped now and I didn't perceive that, you know, kind of, and I mean, that was for me just, like, like I said, Rachel just changed everything for me because I was like, whoa, I've been completely, like, I've been using plants to fix my problems, but not really like relating to them, you know, just been like, gonna take my little alcoholic drops, you know, like a tincture and I'm gonna feel better, you know, but not really thinking about, well, what is, you know, what are these herbs that I'm taking, what are they, like, what is their energetic resonance, what are they doing in my body and, and you know, I don't think I give my kids, you know, like a cough, um, tincture thing and, and they love it and it's got time in it and I, you know, again, I've made tinctures with time and I've worked with time and so I kind of feel good about like, you know, it's got these little flowers that look like little bronchures of the lungs and it's this beautiful tonic for coughs and so I kind of have this relationship with time that I'm comfortable enough to use like a pretty commercial product, you know, when my kids are sick, they have some of that and they like the taste of it's easy to get into them. Like, you know, I'm still using herbs in that way, I'm not saying we all have to be woo about everything, but I think, um, if you can really start to think about, it's kind of like when we source food, like, you can just eat food and that's fine as well, but then, you know, sometimes you have something and someone grew it and it's like, you can kind of taste the sun and you can taste like the soil and you're like, well, this actually like, this does something to me when I eat this that is not just food, you know, um, and many of us have had that experience on farms or with people who grow their own food or farmers markets even or, you know, and again, I know like Europe has a beautiful culture of tradition of like really honoring food and, um, yeah, I think it's kind of that same energy of like, someone grew this, the sunshine on it, the soil, you know, nourished it like the wind blew it and the elements participated in the creation of this thing and so it can at least a little bit we honor that when we imbibe it and when we take its medicine, so that's kind of the, yeah, I love that, sorry, I love that aspect that you're bringing in like in this whole conversation of building the connection to the herbs and honoring what they truly are, they are not just these things to fix in an easy or fast way, but they bring so much more and they might even invite you to look at something or to open up on a higher level. So that's really, really beautiful and I think we need more of that in our society because there is still such an urge to get easy fixes or to just consume things but not really treasure them for what they are. And I think it ties perfectly into your philosophy, the philosophy of superfist, of how you harvest the things, of how you source the things and that they're not some mass production without the true tea or prana in it, but that they still contain the essence. Yeah, well, that's I think for us where, you know, Western medicine can made us like in the fix it, you know, you know, like the solve the immediate symptom problem, but I think a lot of healing is in relationship and it's in relationship to one another in community. I think it's in relationship to our bodies and, you know, and then like how we relate to the things in which we engage within life and, you know, the Taoist lens is very much about relationship. It's about, you know, everything is constantly affecting and influencing the expression of everything else. And so I think the herbs, just, they're a part of that. And I don't, you know, I can't separate that because that's become like my worldview really is like what I do impacts everyone and vice versa and like to take responsibility at that, like on an energetic level as well as mentally and physically like, yeah. And there's a lot of, you know, I think that's a big thing to talk about and it's not easy to meet that sometimes because it means we invite responsible for ourselves and and but that's kind of, you know, I think the path that I've ended up walking has led me to that awareness and that's kind of this business for me has been a really big manifestation of our mutual growth in that in that way because we've both, you know, we've sort of watched that path together but separately and it's been really interesting to me how we came to the herbs from different places, like Mason very much from health potentiation, like he wasn't really ever unwell but he was like, you know, he had a couple of really minor things but he was like, I just want to be like a superhero in the herbs to do that. And I was, you know, coming more from like, well, I want to fix me, like I'm not, you know, not where I want to be like physically and mentally and emotionally and but we're kind of both it's almost led us both through to like radical self responsibility and radical like realization of relationship and not just with each other but with everything and the business is a reflection of that as well. And you know, it's constantly changing. We, we kind of laugh about it all the time, like, you know, how do you grow a business with that, you know, like how, how, how do we even, you know, we don't, we don't know like we're just working it out as we go and I think there'll be like a limit to what super fees can do but then I'm also like what it's what it's seeded, you know, even just conversations like this that someone listens to, even if they never buy a herb, like I hope that on some level they take a piece of like the wisdom of the herbs into their lives, like that, that's almost enough, like you don't need like maybe it's not about selling a jar of extracted herbs, it's just about like what they're here to teach us, you know, and that's kind of I think what we both feel is like we don't know if it's the business or if we're both going other directions with like selling, you know, will we sell herbs for a ride? I mean, I don't know, I think probably like that business will live with us for a very long time because we both see it as a legacy business we want out, you know, our children are both very connected to the growth of that business like as in they've been such a part of it but yeah, I'm also like, I just think it's like the gift of the insight through what it's given us like, I don't really care about, you know, like what happens, you know, it's not about, yeah, anyway, it's an interesting one and I don't really know what the future is but like we don't plan to stop, of course, like we love what we do but yeah, we often sort of reflect on well, we've changed so much in the last decade and it's been through this business and through the herbs and through our practices and so like imagining another decade, like I can't even conceive of what that looks like so yeah, I'm just kind of excited for the journey really and I'm grateful for the support, like, you know, a beautiful community of people around us and a beautiful product like that I'm really proud of so it's easy to continue to be proud of what we do, you know, it's I've never had a, I've never had a moment of being like, oh, I wish we didn't do this, you know, if, you know, there's definitely times I've been like, oh my god, why did we do this? but not like, not about like, you know, more about the legal stuff and, you know, technical, you know, the moving things around for all that stuff. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. When you, and yeah, I think it's a really beautiful journey, you know, to, to grow your business and you feel that you're growing with it, actually, and that you have this space to, to expand and to evolve. Yeah, we've kind of, we always call it the dojo, like, and that's the kind of martial arts term for like the place where the practice happens, you know, and I think, yeah, it's, you know, it's definitely not easy and anyone who's had a practice who know, like, there are days when it's like, you know, swimming through mud and then when it's like, why, you know, this is so easy, why don't I do this all the time? You know, it's just, it's constantly like that. And, and yeah, like, but I think that's the thing like the Mason, especially, has like a very comic bond to Super Feast in terms of like, it was very much like his, you know, like, I birthed out children, but I like, he birthed that business and kind of conceived it when everyone thought he was completely nuts and like, was very brave to like, pursue what, you know, seems like a ridiculous idea. Like, I still, I still think sometimes, like, I remember being like, I'm gonna have this guy come to the studio and he's gonna talk about mushrooms and people like, what? Like, you know, like, they're like, Tony curves, everyone's like, I don't know what you're on, but just, yeah, I was like, that's a really good idea, isn't it? I was like, I would just do not think so, you know, and I think that's just kind of like, yeah, like, I was naive enough to be like, surely people wouldn't hear their bad news. And he wasn't even enough to start a company, like, I'm just like, wow, that's crazy. So yeah, here we are. But yeah, I'm super grateful, like, there's been so many, like, cultural shifts and like, the zeitgeist of, I think, like, just collective consciousness has changed so much in the last decade and like, how we relate to health and like, that I can even have this conversation with you tonight, like, that wouldn't have been the dialogue, like, 10 years ago. And I remember like, trying to run these development courses in my studio and like, trying to talk about this stuff, like, without as much insight as I have now, like, just with an inkling of like, that this is important that we start to like, examine ourselves on multiple levels. And you know, they were popular, but it was like, there wasn't, I think now there's just so much consciousness around, like, how powerful we are as beings and creator beings and like, that, you know, there's so much, juicy and like, being self-aware and starting to cultivate that and, and how that contributes on a much bigger level as well. So, yeah, it feels like a really nice time for, like, all of that insight from supervise to sort of, come out as well, because it, that sort of feels like where we're both at, where we're both like, moved through a lot of, like, stuff in the last decade. And yeah, like, I feel like we feel a little bit more grounded, a little bit more like, clear, I guess, on our personal trajectories as well. So yeah, it's really nice. That's time to be a human, I think. Definitely. Exciting times. Well, thank you so much for everything. Looking at the time, because we started for almost two hours, exactly. It's late for you. So for the listeners, you're in Australia, I'm in Europe. So we're dealing with this eight, our time difference. So maybe we'll come back to a second conversation for our topic of seasons going through the seasons, because yeah, I did not go there at all. But it's good. I love this, how it unfolded naturally. So yeah, I'm very much a trustworthy person. So exactly. And I'm sure that the topic we talked about today will be super, super interesting for so many women. And also, what I wanted to say is it was super helpful to have the rundown through the individual herbs towards the end of our conversation. So I will list them in the show notes and I'll put a little link. I'm also in your affiliate program. So here's a little disclaimer. That's OK. Oh, well, that's great. We love that we get to support small, like independent creators too. And I was talking to someone about this the day, like it's such a gift to be able to, like, I remember one of these single moms that was like one of our first affiliates. And she made like, I think it was like $4,000 from us one month. And I was like, that is so incredible that we get to give her money. And now, you know, had no job. And she was on like, in Australia, like a pension and felt really good, you know, it should be like, we're supporting other people through this business, not just, you know, some just ourselves. And anyway, it was, yeah. And so I still that affiliate program, you know, that was something Mason really wanted to have. He was like, I'm just so grateful for the word of mouth. We have, like, literally, we don't have marketing budgets, like, you know, I've got a friend in marketing. I think word of mouth is so important. And it's been just for all the little companies, the self-employed people, self-employed yoga teachers, whoever. No, but I mean, I like, we're so grateful because those, like, the reviews, the people that, and just for us, like, you know, no one is sound like it's an ego thing, but just to know that we have impact and that it, that it works. Like, we know it works. But sometimes you get in this little, like, echo chamber of like, oh, maybe it's just us and our friends, you know, like, maybe it doesn't work. And then someone will be like, you know, Mason called me, not only a couple of months ago, he called me in the middle of the day, like, just stoked because someone had sent our customer services, this is a really long email about all of the ways in which Superpiece had changed our life. And he was like, this is why I do this, you know, and, and it's like, you know, this is, for him, like, 13 years, you know, something or whatever we're up to, like, 2011 to now, and he's still, like, moved to call his wife in the middle of the day because of an email someone sent to customers. That was amazing. Yeah, and it's just like, you know, remember, cry, you know, we've cried, we've laughed, you know, we've been through all the emotions with all these people's stories, because it's, yeah, it's really special. So, yeah, I know people sometimes get funny with affiliates, but it's like, for me, like, it's people that yourself have genuinely used the product that we don't, you know, like, people don't, it doesn't work if they're not actual advocates for the product and the brand we've, we've just seen that there's just not an energetic resonance that doesn't happen. So, you know, and I think it's a great way for people to support you if people are listening to this podcast, you know, you get a lot of value out of these, you know, I've done a podcast a couple of now, and it's like, it's a lot of time and energy goes into it, and it's a great way to, yeah, to contribute back to the people. Yeah, thank you. The effort into, you know, thank you for having me tonight at Spinpool today tonight. It's been such a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation, that you got some good insights out of it, some food for thought, and, you know, also taking the space to listen to something like that can be a form of nurturance, of restoring, restoring your body, your mind, because you're taking that time to listen to something that can eventually nurture you. And overall, I just find it's a beautiful and powerful to tune into these, this ancient wisdom that various ancient sciences give us that what they embody, what they have been telling for thousands of years, and it's still so valid. So again, thank you, Tani, for sharing all your wisdom, your experiences, and you guys listening. If you want to do me a little favor, please leave a five star rating. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, also write a short review. It can only be a sentence that helps me immensely to grow my show. And, of course, feel free to send an email with any feedback, comments, or leave us a comment, comment over on Instagram. All right, guys, have a good time, take care, and hear you soon. [BLANK_AUDIO]