Willie sits down with Emmy-winning star Sheryl Lee Ralph to celebrate her recent success after four decades in the business. She recalls the support she got from teachers like the one she plays on her hit show, "Abbott Elementary", and her conversation with Robert De Niro that kept her moving in the right direction. (Original broadcast date February 25, 2024)
Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist
EMMY NOMINEE: Sheryl Lee Ralph
H5N1 bird flu is spreading in poultry and cows. It's rare in people, but bird flu can make you sick. If you work with poultry, dairy cows, wild animals, or with raw, unpasteurized milk, wear protective gear like coveralls, NIOSH approved respirators and eye protection, and wash your hands often. If you start feeling sick, seek medical care and tell them you work with animals. Learn how to reduce your risk at cdc.gov/birdflu, a message from cdc. Let's say your small business has a problem, like maybe one of your doggy daycare customers had an accident. You might say something like, "Dawg on it!" "Hi Jiwawa!" "Holy Schnazers!" But if you need someone who can actually help, just say, "Like a good neighbor, state farm is there!" and get help following a claim from your local state farm agent. For your small business insurance needs, like a good neighbor, state farm is there. Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another edition of the Sunday Sit Down Podcast. My thanks is always for clicking and listening along. I got a great one for you this week with someone who is truly a life force and a light in this world. She is Cheryl Lee Ralph. She's one of the stars of the hit series, Abbott Elementary, where she plays Barbara Howard, the no-nonsense kindergarten teacher, who's seen a few things in her day while working in the Philadelphia public school system. Hilarious show, getting all the acclaim and Emmy awards it deserves, including one for Cheryl last year. She won for Best Supporting Actress in a Comedy, becoming only the second black woman ever to win that award. And she's been through a lot. She's lived a lot in her life and her career. She has so much wisdom. She's so positive. She's so uplifting. And she talks about her long road to this moment that she's finally having. I mean, just in the last year, she sang at the Super Bowl. She was Mrs. Claus in the Thanksgiving Day parade. She's about to get her star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. And it does feel like Abbott Elementary is sort of this reward at the end of almost 40 years of work, more than 40 years of work, actually. She got her first part on Broadway in 1981. She originated the role of Dina Jones in the original production of Dream Girls. That's the role that Beyonce later played in the movie version of it. And had a lot of success and a lot of frustration between Broadway and Abbott Elementary that she gets into. She's just a joy to be around, a joy to talk with. And I think you'll enjoy spending a little time, as much as I did, with Cheryl Lee Ralph right now on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. It's such a pleasure. It's great to be here with you for doing this. I've been looking forward to it. Oh, me too. Me too. Me too. And especially in this sort of grand room. I think it's appropriate for you. Thank you very much. I did have the feeling that it has an intentional, almost 80s feel to it. And then I imagined you've just done a performance of Dream Girls in 1981 and we've come here for dinner afterward. I love that. Oh, that's so sweet. That's so good. But I never went to dinner after the show. Right. Too tired. Too late. Too late. Because that was a very long show. You know, you would get out about quarter to 11, which was at the time very long. But you know what? It would have been a great, it's a great fantasy. I like it. What are your memories of being in New York at that time? And when you come back here, do you feel that? Does that stuff come rushing back to you? I remember and think clearly about what a hellhole 42nd Street used to be. Early 80s. Oh my God. The fact that you literally took your life into your own hands walking from Broadway to 8th Avenue. Truly. It was like your parents would warn you, don't do it. So I think about that sometime. And now when I look at it now and it's you've got the Lion King there and stores are there on the corner. I'm like, wow, what can happen in a short period of time? But I think about that. I think about the fact that I had a good girlfriend at the time called Wendy. Wendy Creed. We were such good friends. And Wendy would come to the theater. And Wendy used to have to hail the cab for me. Because we could be the stars, the Bill of the Ball on Broadway, but could not get a cab to go home. And 8th Avenue was going uptown. So they were not trying to pick up black people to go uptown. Oh, it was terrible. But my good girlfriend, she would come and get the cab for me. Oh, it was very nice of her. Even the star of Dreamgirls. Thank you. There you go. But we'll talk more about Dreamgirls in a second. Can we please start with Abbott? What a beautiful, wonderful show. We were just talking at some length before we started about how impactful it is, how important it is, but how funny it is, how smart it is, how full of hard it is. What does it feel like to have been a part of something now as you enter season three that has been such a cultural force that has been so successful on so many different levels? I think to myself how blessed I am to be at this point in my career after everything that I've been through, the ups and the downs, to have a gifted young performer look at me and say, Miss Ralph, it's you. Take this journey with me. And that was Quentin Brunson, who said we need a queen for this role and you are that queen. And then to be a part of a show that can actually shine a much needed life on education in America and around the world to give educators the respect that they are due and that they deserve. I think to myself, does it get much better than this? And I'm winning at me. I'm like, oh my God. And they want to give me a star in the Walk of Fame. And I'm like, oh my God. Wow. It's just the best. It's like I know what lightning in a bottle is. And I get to hold it in my hands. I'm blessed. I thank you, God, and Mother Earth. Oh, yeah. That's beautiful, the gratitude you have because you know how hard you've worked to get to this level of recognition in your life and how much you put into it. I was laughing, reading. You said, yeah, I'm a 40-year overnight success. 40 years to become an overnight sensation. It's crazy, but I love it. And it's so amazing because I was in New York. I went to see "Pearly Victorious" and I took a cab to the theater. And the driver looked at me when I tried to pay. You know to pay for your cab ride. You said, Cheryl Lee Ralph, you don't own me a thing because you've paid bills for all of us. Wow. And I was kind of stunned. I'm in New York. How often does that happen? It doesn't happen. I thank you. Last time, I couldn't get a ride. But he looked at me and he said, no, I'm serious. And I was like, wow. I get to get that kind of love from people. And it's amazing. It's amazing. That's full circle with the cab. Yes. So when Quinta first came to you with this idea, you share a little bit of what her pitch was. What did you think about the concept, about the show, about playing Barbara? Or maybe playing the principle you would consider it a little bit too? Was that true? Honestly, God, I knew that people would see me as an upright, correct person. And I said, what if I got a chance to play somebody that was absolutely, totally different? And she was like, no. Dealbreaker. Absolutely not. Barbara Howard or nothing. I said, that's all right. That's all right. Barbara Howard. Barbara Howard, because she just represents so many teachers that I had. So many teachers that really believed in me as a student who really said, you don't have them now, but you will have wings and you must fly, you know? And to have that sort of confidence put in you, I will have wings and I will fly. You know? Sometimes you just have to have a teacher that puts it in your brain. I see you and you can do this. Stop being afraid. Get up there and do the work. Sing your song. Study. Do the math. I remember, you know, math was never my subject, really. And the teacher said, Mr. Moskowitz might have been sixth grade. And he was like, all you have to do is get a C. Just get a C. You pass. I got a B. Because he said, he set that bar. Right. And all I had to do in my mind was if I was just going to steal, get a B. I got a B. It might have been the first and the last B of math. Sorry. But I did it. You cleared the bar. So did you have teachers as you took on this role that you thought about, that you wanted to sort of embody or did you pull pieces of different people in your life to play Barbara? This is of so many different teachers. I had a teacher by the name of Ms. Iris Whitaker. Ms. Whitaker was in Jamaica. And when she put all of the students together, it was like, sit up straight. You only have a few seconds in the world, and the world is going to decide who you are. Make sure you know who you are first when you get to the room. Speak properly. It non-sear words properly, Cheryl. Clearly your turn. Go. Then there was another artist, and you know, you think about these when you're young. There was a woman by the name of Louise Bennett. And in Jamaica, Louise Bennett, she held the culture, the stories, the language, the patois, the everything, you know, the clothing, all of that, she held all of that within her art. And I was just practicing mine, and she had a little show called Ring Ding. And you know, if you came to Ring Ding, you were somebody, and she asked you to speak, and maybe it wasn't great, maybe it was just okay. But she looked at me and she said, clap her. And I'm telling you the fact that I deserved applause, you know, it put something inside of you. My auntie Carolyn, just an incredible teacher. My dad, a lifelong learner, an incredible teacher, started out as a music teacher, ended up as a college professor. It was just, you know, so many teachers. My gym teacher, Miss Judy Burfind, who said, run your race. I love that. I remember what they said to me. You never forget those teachers. You never forget those teachers. We were just having a great conversation before we started about the impact this show has had on telling their stories in this country and reminding people how hard it can be, but also how dedicated they are and why teachers do what they do. To me, it's, we're talking about how government has one side of it, but the culture has another side of it. And to me, that's what one of the blessings of your show is to just shine a light on what it means to be a teacher in America. Do you feel that? Oh, absolutely. I feel that so often. And when I speak to teachers, when I run into teachers and they want to share with me how seen they feel, how much they appreciate the show. They're not the butt of the joke. They are the heart of the show. And what they do, people don't understand what it is like to have a passion in life. And to be a teacher is to have a passion for learning. It's a passion for giving. What it takes to mold minds, young minds, and give them the desire to go forward in life and do their best. Those are special people. And why we don't give those people the tools that they really deserve, that they really need to educate all of our children. Not some of the children, but all of the children. I don't understand. I don't understand why parents don't demand more for their children. Parents need to be involved. They need to show up. Teachers need the school board, the city, the state to understand it takes money to educate. Why is it that we're in New York and just two states away? There is a teacher. Her salary is $35,000. She is teaching second grade all day. She cannot live on that amount of money. She must have a second job. So now this woman is working overtime and she's paying off her education. What are we not thinking about? What is not important for us? Education is important. If you choose not to educate children, you get what happens very often. You get carjacked. Yeah, they end up on your doorstep and you say, "How did that happen?" Well, an idle mind, an uneducated mind is a devil's workshop. We owe it to ourselves to start educating our children as soon as possible. The moment you're three-year-old can scroll to your phone and go through Google, they should be in school with a good and proper education. And the money we spend on that is not wasted money. Not wasted at all. We need to come up with programs to keep our children in school. Why, in a great city like Los Angeles, we can't get kids to graduate from high school. Something about that has to change because statistics like that show you that there's a real dumbing down going on in America. And we are a great nation. And we deserve to do better, much better, buy and for each other, especially our children and the people who educate them. Don't get me started, Mr. Guys. Don't get me started. And that is while we'll be voting for Shirley Ralph in 2024. Writer in, folks. No, I'm married to a politician, more like a public servant, Senator Vincent Hughes. Yes. And I'm telling you, I will never run for office. It is one of the most thankless jobs in the world, especially if you have a passion for people and a passion for politics and making things better for the people. No, I will never do that job. You're having your impact outside of politics. Outside of it, yes. Thank you. It's sadly the story you just shared about the $35,000 salary of the teacher who works two jobs and probably pays for a lot of her own supplies. That's right. Is that it's not uncommon. It is not uncommon. That stories happen all over the country, all over the country. And I just don't understand it, especially after COVID. You remember all those videos we saw after COVID people? Like, I can't take it. My children. I had no idea they were this bad. Please open up the schools. I can't do it. I'm like, oh my goodness, people. Now that you know, you know better, let's do better. That's right. They're your children. Hey guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Cheryl Lee Ralph right after the break. You've almost certainly been prescribed a medication before. But did you understand how it worked? The way your medication works in your body shouldn't be a mystery. Learn how Vivgar Tytrulo, F-Gartigamod Alpha and Hyaluronidase QVFC works by visiting vivgart.com/moa. That's v-y-v-g-a-r-t.com/moa. Brought to you by Argenics. H5N1 bird flu is spreading in poultry and cows. It's rare in people, but bird flu can make you sick. If you work with poultry, dairy cows, wild animals, or with raw, unpasteurized milk, wear protective gear like coveralls, NIOSH approved respirators and eye protection, and wash your hands often. If you start feeling sick, seek medical care and tell them you work with animals. Learn how to reduce your risk at cdc.gov/birdflu, a message from CDC. Let's say your small business has a problem. Like maybe... One of your doggy daycare customers had an accident. You might say something like... "Dawg on it!" "Hi Jiwawa!" "Holy Schnazers!" But if you need someone who can actually help, just say... "Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there!" and get help following a claim from your local State Farm agent. For your small business insurance needs, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Welcome back now more of my conversation with Cheryl Lee Ralph. What are the kinds of things you hear from teachers who come up to you on the street or stop you at the grocery store or whatever it is? What do they say to you about this show? Thank you. And how do you know that this is really what's going on? It's like you all are so right on. It's like you're listening to us in our classrooms. It's like you have cameras and you're seeing what's going on. They're fascinated by that. And that's when I have to say that we have an amazing writer's room. We have a writer's room that is very diverse, although I wish they had one or two older people in the writer's room. But for the most part, they're very diverse and their finger is on the pulse of what's happening and they care. And also with our creator, Quinta is wonderful, what she sees in the world, what she wants better in the world. Sometimes I look at her and she has this thing with her fingers and I'm like, she's conducting. This whole show is like a symphony, the Quinta Symphony. She knows what the next notes are and where it's going to be. And when I tell people when they're watching the show, don't think you're going to see the same thing again and again. You're not because it's like, you know, the kids say life, be life. Life which is totally incorrect English, but Abbott Elementary, be Abboting. Says the teacher, be Abbotting. Yes, be Abbotting. It has been so nice to see the rewards for a great show. And we were talking about a show on network television where some people have said, you know, really the action is on streaming or it's on Netflix or HBO. And that's true. But what you guys have proven and shown is, no, no, we can still do it here. Absolutely. In a way that is smart and actually has an edge to it. That's right. And succeed the way you have. And I, you know, whether people want to say it out loud or not, Abbott Elementary is literally saving the American comedy on TV. In fact, I'm going to say this, Abbott Elementary is saving TV. The fact that we are getting people to watch it the way they are. And how I know this is true is because a very big TV executive pulled me to the side and said, Shirley Ralph. Let me just tell you this about your show, Abbott Elementary. People can say whatever they want to say about TV, but they will never say it enough. This show is saving TV. And this show, like you just said, is proving. All you have to do is know what it is you are here to do and raise the bar of excellence. Because Quinta with the casting of this show, the writing of this show, the production of our show, the directing of our show has proven bring the best to the court and the rest will come. And that's a fact. And it was a private conversation. So we won't say his name, but suffice it to say it was a very well known, very experienced television executive who said that to you. So that's high praise. I've got to ask you about Emmy night, the night you won. Yes. My gosh, no one will ever forget that speech. You might because you said you blacked out a little bit when your name was called, but I'm sure you've seen it since. What are you looking back? Remember about the way you felt that night when Amy Poehler called your name. I absolutely was in shock. I could not believe that it was me, but it was me. And I couldn't get my brain to tell my legs to move. And then I could hear Quinta's voice. She said, "Get out! It's you!" And you know, I stood up and there was Tyler and Tyler was taking me up to the stage and I had to center myself. So I was about ready to lose it. And my father would always say, "Do not cry. Do not cry. Keep your composure." And I was about ready to just break down. I could hear my kids in the balcony screaming, "Oh, hey!" I could hear them clear as a bell. And I just sang. You know, I knew this song that Diane Reeves had written and I just sang it. And that song for me said so much. You know, I am an endangered species. I'm a woman. I'm an artist. And I know where my voice belongs. And I had no idea how much it was going to reach people. You know, and it was from there I was calm and I could just talk. And I just let people know how I felt in this moment and how thankful I was to be there. Because I had never been invited to the Emmys before. And out of my whole body of work, I've never been invited. And the first time I'm invited, I win. You know, and I was like, this is showbiz at its best. This is a good movie, you know, because somebody knows exactly what I've been through. You know, and what it's like for people to tell you, you know, it's, they're not ready. Robert De Niro and I, we were doing a movie together called Mistress. And he said to me, in the middle of shots one day, he looked at me and said, you're a damn good actress. And that's too bad. Because Hollywood is not looking for the black girl. So you better climb that mountain and wave the red flag and let them know that you were there. And I was like, it was so many things all at once, you know, and it's Robert De Niro saying these things to me. But I better climb the mountain and wave that red flag. So there you have it. And there you were standing on the mountaintop. There I was on the mountain in the moment. Had you planned to sing? I didn't plan anything. I hadn't planned anything. I hadn't written anything. I was there as a supportive actor because I was sure it wasn't me. I was there to do the red carpet, look fabulous and enjoy the moment with my husband and my family. And that was that. If that was the evening, I would have had a good time. I'd have been fine with that. But that wasn't what God had in store for me. And then to top it off, he said, you know, there's going to be a little strike here. So you're going to actually hold on to this Emmy reign for 16 months. Enjoy every one of them. He said, you waited this long. We're going to give you four extra months. Four extra months. Yes, you get it. That's amazing that you just belted that out spontaneously. That's so cool. Yeah. And then as you say, you composed yourself and it was a beautiful speech. Thank you. And what a moment. I mean, you touched on it a little bit, but to win an Emmy, you know, the star in the Hollywood Walk of Fame, your Mrs. Claus and the Thanksgiving Day parade. Oh my gosh. It's like all this stuff is rushing toward you. Is it overwhelming at all or are you just enjoying it? Oh, I'm just enjoying it. It's like ride the wave, baby. Ride the wave. Wave to the people. Say hello. Look lovely. Be lovely. Enjoy it. You know, I don't have to ask for anything. People give it to me. All I have to do is be good. And more good just comes to me. Oh, it's great. I'm telling you. I'm living the life. This is the dream. This is the dream. And I don't have to do anything but be my best. I wake up at four o'clock in the morning to be at work at five thirty, but it's worth it. It is so worth it. I'm loving it. And you've earned it. You've earned the moment, right? You know what? I know what that means. I earned it. I used to be a Girl Scout. And being a Girl Scout, you have to earn the badges. And I had, you know, a nice sash. I wish I still had it. But I had, I looked at those badges of honor and it was like, I earned them. I did the work. And my mom was like my scout leader. Oh, it was just, it was just great. And when I held that trophy up and it's heavy. And I was like, I earned this. Yeah, I did this. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And it was that out on Long Island. We're talking when you were growing up. Oh, between Jamaica. Between Long Island, between New Jersey. Oh my God. Everywhere. Yeah. When was the first memory? When is the first memory you have of performance? Of, oh, I have an audience or I can sing a little bit or I like being on a stage. Was that early in your life? Summer stock. Summer stock in, because my dad was a choir director, music teacher. All of that when I was very young. And we got cast in the Helen Keller play. I forget the name of it. But my brother had the line. My brother Stanley had the line. And I remember every night, I would look at him, give his line. And I was like, that should be me. I should be giving the line because I was just standing on the side. Right? And I remember thinking, I want this. Lawrence Road, junior high school. Mr. Martindale was the music teacher. Mr. Martindale, the Christmas concert. Oh, holy night. Oh. And I sang, oh, holy night. I got the solo. And when I heard that applause, oh my goodness gracious. Oh my God. I used to daydream about being on the stage and on Broadway. But where I was at the Emmys, I would dream about that sort of stuff. And then I heard that applause. And I was just like, oh, I'll never be able to live without it. It was like a main line, main line. Oh my God, I got to have it. Applause. Oh, yeah. And yet when you go to college, you're pre-med. Yes. So was that your parents saying maybe you should do something a little more practical? I'm an immigrant's child. My mother immigrated from Jamaica. And my mother would say, be a doctor, be a lawyer. And if you can't do that, then marry one. And I was just, oh my God. And I remember saying, okay, I'm going to be a doctor. And I went there to Rutgers and they had this huge, you know, it's like a hare. It's like the huge. It's like the Easter Bunny on steroids. And I got this blue velvet box with a scalpel in it. And I remember opening that scalpel, looking at that Easter Bunny. And I'm like, I'm not dissecting the Easter Bunny. I'm not doing it. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. So I immediately left that class and I went to the registrar and I went back to Rutgers and the registrar is gone now. But I went back there and I said, I'm going to, I'm registering to be a lawyer. And somehow I got into constitutional law. And I remember this teacher, you know, with her hair pulled back into severe bun. And you know, I was describing the teacher when I went back to Rutgers because I gave the great commencement speech last year. So I was describing my teacher of constitutional law and they said, was that Ruth Bader Ginsburg? What? And I said, what? They said, yes, she was teaching constitutional law. The timeframe adds up. So can you believe it? I think I walked out on the supreme future Supreme Court justice. Wow. I said, oh my God, I will never be a doctor. I will never be a lawyer. This is not happening in my life. I got lost on the street and on the dead end, which is no longer a dead end, which is my life. Imagine the little theater was on a dead end street and I went back. It's not a dead end street anymore. But I look at that little theater on the Rutgers, on the Douglas campus and I think, wow, look at that. Dr. John Bettenender, my teacher, who said, you've got something here, you've got something here. Wow. Yeah. And did you really graduate at 19 years old? I graduated at 19. I graduated at college at 19. Listen, I realized that college is like anything else. Once you know the road work, once you know the plan, you can get there. They said to me, you have to have a certain number of credits. Every semester you get these credits, you pass these grades well. Get out of here. That's what I did. That's exactly what I did. And I created at the time something that they were just experimenting with independent study and a student was able to put together the curriculum. And there was a place at the time called the Negro Ensemble Company. And in that class, they had all these great actors of color, black. And there were so many people in a sera dash from LaBelle, Trasana Beverly, for colored girls who've considered the rainbow. And I was in the class with these people. And I'm a kid. And when I went back and they were like, you're in class with who? And so I would go there every Tuesday and Thursday. And I passed. I got an A. And that's how I ended up with my first film, A Piece of the Action with Sidney Poitier because my acting teacher became a producer. And he called me. And you see, that's show business, relationships. Who knows you? Who likes you? Who's willing to spend their money on you and get growth out of their money? And that still remains the plan today. Who knows you? Who likes you? Who likes working with you? Yeah. So many things happen out of that. Anyway, that's how I graduated at 19. Graduated at 19 and wasted no time with your career because you missed your graduation. Yes. Four. A Skippy Peanut Butter Commercial. When I got that commercial, you know, at that time commercials, they were union jobs and you got paid money. The $35,000 that I got paid doing that Skippy Peanut Butter Commercial kept me from waiting tables. All I did was train to act, prepare to act. I did shots learning how to be myself in front of a camera. That money went to that. And I figured I love you Rutgers University. Thank you. But you all will mail me that piece of paper. And that's what they did. And is it true you still keep Skippy in your cabinet? Absolutely. I keep that peanut butter in my cabinet because I'm grateful, because I'm thankful. Peanut butter, creamy peanut butter. I think that's what it was. Yeah. And every time you see it, you remember where you began. I do. There it is. Yeah. I do. Thanks is an important thing. What are you thankful for? I'm thankful that I get up in the morning. You know what? I have a friend who's suffering right now. He was misdiagnosed. He has cancer, but he thought he was going to die a few weeks ago. And I went to see him. And he said, Cheryl, I woke up this morning and here you are grateful, grateful. I woke up this morning. I'm grateful. I'm sitting here talking to you. Look at us. We have a great conversation. I'm thankful. Likewise. Thank you. I think gratitude is important. Gratitude is important. What is it? Gratitude is a must. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. more of my conversation with Cheryl Lee Ralph right after a quick break. >> H5N1 bird flu is spreading in some animals. If you work with poultry, dairy cows, wild animals or with raw unpasteurized milk, wear protective gear and take precautions. cdc.gov/birdflu. A message from CDC. >> If your small business is booming, you might say, but you should say, like a good neighbor, state farm is there. >> And we'll help your growing business. >> Like a good neighbor, state farm is there. >> Now two pigeons be moaning the fact you can stream direct TV satellite free. >> These humans can stream all the top rated national news channels on Direct TV and now with no satellite dish. >> It's just in, weather, sports, election coverage. Direct TV has it all, but something is missing. The satellite dish. >> What are you doing? >> I'm reporting the news. Back to you, Bob. Here's some news. You're at a buffoon. >> Stream the top rated national news channels. No satellite dish. Visit direct TV.com. Internet required. Top rated news based on 2023 Nielsen ratings. >> Welcome back. Now to the rest of my conversation with Cheryl Lee Ralph. >> See, you start, you start working. You get, you get spots on different shows, good times at Jefferson's Wonder Woman. I think like you did the, you, you hit some big shows. >> I did. >> Which felt like a break to you. Did any of those feel like a break to you? Did any of those feel like a break or was it not until dream girls that you thought, oh, now I've got something that really showcases what I can do? >> You know, it was interesting to go from under five, to, you know, under five lines. You know, that's a certain way that people get to start. You know, my line on the Jefferson's was, Mr. Jefferson, don't forget your wife's birthday. You know, he and I, Sherman Hemsley, stayed in touch, basically my whole career. His last show, we did a pilot together, you know, and I think about that. People staying in touch with you, your whole career. But I, I, I think about the fact that before I got to Broadway, I had TV under my belt. I was, I was doing TV, you know, it really was. And then I was on Broadway for however long that was, it felt like forever. Oh my god, 1,247 performances. >> Was it that? >> It was that many, but that's nothing compared to folks in Wicked now. Wicked, they're there for like 20, 30 years. I'm like, oh my god, they're buying three houses and putting their kids through. College, they're staying in that one job, which I say to myself, ooh, feathers, go away. I say, I say to myself, how do you do that? Because I knew it was time for me to leave Dreamgirls when I got up on stage. One night only, the music was playing. And there, my smile was on, baby. And I couldn't remember not one lyric. But I, I knew happy birthday, happy birthday, happy birthday. Because if you keep moving your mouth, somehow it seems like you're talking. If you say, happy birthday, it seems to fit every syllable, syllable. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, I hear Loretta Devine saying, one night only, one night only. And it's like she's speaking Japanese. I'm like, I don't get it. And I hear the stage manager said her, Mike's dead. And the stage manager on the stage says her brain is dead. And I was just like, absolutely right. I took a vacation and then that was it. I got a pilot. Yeah. I got fried. A casting director cast me in a series called V. And I didn't come back, went right back to TV. That was that Dreamgirls got to Tony nomination. Yes, it did. It was a big deal for you, a big deal for your career. But as you've said, it also was, it wasn't easy, right? It was a mixed bag in some ways. Yeah. For me, you know, it wasn't just my art. I learned so much. You know, I learned how to use my voice to create a character. You know, one of the things was I could never, ever, never copy, could not copy Diana. If you copy, Diana will get sued. You know, you had to create a likeness that was all of those artists together. But of course, in my head, I love Diana. So, you know, what the heck? But, you know, the fact that you could create with your voice these characters. And I still use that now very much, you know, to be under your talent and then to try to match your talent with your vocal abilities because, you know, even after the Emmys, people were like, I have no idea you could sing like that. I was like, wow, you know, but I learned so much then. But it was my, it was my human learning that really took a hit because I saw what happened around AIDS. Right. People's inhumanity towards other human beings. I'm a child of the 60s. And I was traumatized by my childhood in the 60s. That whole racism, the dogs, we'd see the dogs on kids that were just a little bit older than you, that was horrible. Just the straight out blowing people's heads off on TV. And what you saw, it was horrible. And to see people's vitriolic hate against people who were suffering and dying and telling people that's what they get. And that's what gay people deserve. I was like, this is horrible. And you would sing and dance with somebody. Then they'd be fighting for their life the next day. And you're not going to go visit them. What you were afraid of, the friendship that you had, what you're not going to call their people, that for me was devastating to see how people could treat other people. Oh, my God. And in some ways, still continue to treat other people. You know, what I saw then, and I compared it to that early COVID. It's horrible when your friends, and they didn't want to call their people, and then their people didn't want to come for them. I'll never be the same after living that never. And that, that just, that really changed me in a lot of ways. And that's early 1980s New York City. That is the beginning of, of that crisis beyond, and left a big impact on you, given your documentary film, your foundation, that that was something that you have carried with you for all these years since then, it seems like. For me, it was important for people to understand we're all human beings. We are all human beings. And the moment you are unkind to other people, I know how much you don't like yourself. Because only somebody who carries around some kind of hate for themselves can hate on other people. It's just there. You just don't grow up and say, I hate those people. You learn that kind of stuff. You feel less than in yourself. And that's why you feel okay to hate on those people. Trust me, I used to always tell people, you want a good friend? You better get yourself a good gay friend, honey, because they will be right there with you through thick and thin. One day I was at a convention, and there was a women's convention on this side, then there was a gay convention on that side. On the gay side, everybody was happy and dancing and telling their story and dancing through their tears. On this side, the women were crying and they were so sad. And I said, ladies, you need to go over there to the gay side and see them dance through their tears. You know, and I just learned so much that people hate is a learned thing, but it's really just the twin to love. And most times the people that hate on gay people so much, it's like, I want to say, you need to pick up a mirror, you might be gay, because you couldn't be spending this much time hating gay people if you weren't afraid of it, or maybe you just need to get to know some gay people. Know somebody who's different. Maybe you need to read some of these books that people keep trying to ban so that you can understand more about people in general. Education is an amazing thing. It can heal so many wounds. Ignorance, ignorance will make you do some crazy things like doubt every truth somebody tells you, because you can only be ignorant to continually believe volumes of lies. That's the only way that happens. You don't know it any better, or it's worse. You do know better, but you refuse to do better. That is the greatest sin of all. That is well said. I mean, I was going to say at some point, it's a choice, isn't it? It's something. You have the information. You know the truth. And now you're choosing to be ignorant. You're choosing to hate. And then that's where you got a real problem. That's where you got a real problem. Yeah. We blur the lines for ourselves until we no longer know what the truth really is. Good for you for being so strong on this and speaking out about it the way you do when you're a powerful voice. Yeah, you are. I'm the little kid that wasn't chosen for a teen. I'm the little kid that had to have my own teen because nobody chose me. Nobody was putting me on their team. They called me ugly. They told me I was to this. I was to that. I can't be. You can't be on our team. I said, that's okay. I have my own team. There you go. I'm thinking about the De Niro story and the climb up the mountain to wave the red flag. What has that climb been like? You hear you are in this beautiful moment for you. But you've had it's been a climb and you've had great jobs that you've loved along the way and people loved you and Mowisha and all these different stages that you've had. But it feels like now there you are standing up there and people are finally going, there she is. So what has that climb been like all these years? Rough. It's been rough. It's like when you hear them say, I came up the rough side of the mountain. It was not a crystal mountain. There was no crystal stair, baby. And you know, sometimes you get to places on the mountain and it's like, you see somebody there that could help you and they ignore. They pull up the ladder. Oh my God. Many times the ladder has been pulled up. And it's just like, honestly, you know what? I have to thank, now I'm thinking about this. I have to thank them for pulling up the ladder. They did not pull up the ladder. I would not continue to climb. I would probably would have stalled. I probably would have not gained my own strength to carry on. And quite as it's kept, some of them never made it to the mountain. They never made it. And you know, I always thought I was going to see them there and not there. They didn't make it. It's like, wow. But I made it. I'm happy to. Yeah. When Martin Luther King said, I have been to the mountain top and I've seen it. I'm like, you all come on up the mountain. I see it, but you know what else I see? There's a new mountain to climb. Yeah. Well, you led me to my next question. Now that you've reached, you've reached this peak, what else do you have in front of you? What else do you think about? What are your, you've done so much in your career, but there's so much time left. What else do you want to do? I love producing. I love putting great people together because I've learned one thing and Quentin has learned it too. You put the best people together to do the job. You don't have too much of a hard job because you have bought the best people together and trust them to do what they do the best. Bring your guidance to it. Do the best. I want to write stories, do films. I want to tell the untold stories. There's still so many of them out there. I want to bring some, raise the bar of excellence and bring great people together to do great turf things. Oh, yeah. Oh, I live for that. And I look at my kids and I think, yes, I want the legacy to continue. I want them to continue to climb on up and be able to say my name when I'm gone. Cheryl Lee Ralph. That was my mother. Yeah. You know what else they can do? What? Visit your star in the wall. How about that? I will always be there for them to kind of see me. Isn't that cool? Oh, yes. You know what? I hope, you know, maybe I should ask them, with my star, I want you to put a little hole in it so that when I pass away, I'm going to put part of me right there. Oh, I wonder if that's been done. I like that. Thank you. A little memorial. That's dark. Let's not talk about that. You say, wait a minute. What we don't know, we know nothing. I believe I have years ahead of me. I will be 105 years old and still having a great time. But people don't like to talk about end of life as if they think it's going to last forever. I'm like, you know what? Get a will. Get a trust. Plan for your end of life. It's like I tell people when they're getting married. Pre-not baby, plan to the best of your ability. Plan. Don't plan for disaster. Plan for a great end. Why not? These things happen. It's like I tell people all the time, talk to your children about sex or your daughter doesn't come home pregnant. Right. Talk to your children. We don't want to do these things. We must do them. I'm in that right now. I have a 14 year old second. My wife's like, you need to go sit down with him. You must. We do. We do. And it's like, don't make them ever feel embarrassed about the questions and the things that they say to you. They want to know and you are their best teacher. You're the best, especially if you want them to learn from you. You don't want them to learn from other people because sometimes they learn those lessons and they're not the right lessons. Especially with the phone and the internet. Come on now. They can find anything on the phone. No, honey. That's not how you do that. No. Tell it. It's true. That's true. It's true. It's true. Cheryl Lee Ralph, I could talk to you all day. Thank you. But you have other engagements. I've so enjoyed this. Thank you so much. Thank you. Congratulations on your massive success over all these years, but particularly with this show. It's wonderful. Thank you very much. Thank you. Abbot Elementary forever and ever. Amen. My big thanks again to Cheryl for a great conversation. You can check out Abbot Elementary on ABC. My thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear our conversations every week, be sure to click follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday Today, every weekend on NBC. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday sit down podcast. Small business has a problem? You could say. Just my luck. But you should say. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. And we'll help get you back in business. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. (chime)