(upbeat rock music) - Welcome back everyone to the Capsule for Maintenance podcast. If this is your first time joining us, we're a show that takes a behind-the-scenes look into the gritty, non-glamorous life of aircraft maintenance. We share some laughs in parts of wisdom. All in hopes of giving you that split seconds, relief in your day that can hopefully prevent a mishap. I am your co-host six. - I'm MVP. - And our third man, Mr. Shoreline, is silently in the back, monitoring our audio, making sure our faces stay fit for radio. So we have a return guest. Return, return guest. - Sorry. (laughing) - He's excited, he's not excited. - We're on, hi. (laughing) - Just dump that in, we are Shoreline. (laughing) - I'm sorry, I stepped on you Shoreline. (laughing) - That's hilarious. (laughing) Just that little quiet, hi. (laughing) - Oh my God, he talked. (laughing) Well, we have a return guest, Mr. Rod. The-- - Being awkward over here. (laughing) - The test engineer also has a business in leadership and teaching people how to find their potential, realize their potential, find it and maximize it, become the best leader they possibly can. And he does this all through his business, leadership AF. Welcome back, Rod. - Hi, and you know what? Owning your awkwardness is part of this, that's being authentic. - Yes. - Absolutely. (laughing) I mean, let's face it, man, like four years later, we're still being the clowns that we are. I've actually got called clowns to wear faces a whole bunch of times, and people still listen to us, so. - Hey, what? (indistinct) - I would text to listen to me, that's crazy. (laughing) - Don't tell me about it, tell me about it. People still think I actually know what I'm doing. Like, how wrong or how wrong you are. - I'm just guessing here. (laughing) - See, the only problem is I just have the guts to do it. (laughing) - Yeah. - Kind of like a no ball, but I tell that to myself. (laughing) So, today we're focusing on a lot more of what Rod does as a business, which again is the leadership AF where he helps people learn techniques to not only draw their potential, realize and maximize it to become better, effective leaders, but to also pull that off from other people, help them realize it. And I feel that that's one of those core features that a lot of us tend to miss, right? Either we have an issue on locking what we have, or we have issues bringing out what other people have. And there's many. - You know, a lot of people have hard time reading their own strengths because they don't see their strengths. - Yes. - I have to go around to my team and point out. Like I have calibrated items I have to go get and they're assigned two different workbenches. So I have to go through their workbenches to find these tools to turn them in for calibration. And one of my texts, the first time I went through her workbench, I took her aside, I was like, you are one of the most organized people I've ever met, you would be an amazing project manager. - Actually, I haven't gone for it yet, but I still think, I still swear by that, she would be an amazing project manager. - So in that seat in their head, right? Like, sometimes that's what it takes, you know? Like, you know what, you'd be a great pilot. Like, why? - But I always give the reasons, right, the strengths. Like, oh, you're super organized. Like, that's something I would expect to see in a project manager or your attention to detail for a pilot, that would be a really good thing for them to have. - Yeah, exactly, exactly, right? And I think a good part of it is that journey towards that master's ship. If that's actually a word, master's ship. Is that a word? - It can be. You know what it is for today, damn it. (laughing) But having a master in something. - Early episode, master's ship. - Master's ship, yeah. (laughing) Look at us go figuring things out on the fly. (laughing) But I believe like a lot of us, we get to wrapped up in seeing just the destination that we kind of just forget about the whole journey itself, right? And sometimes something like being a master to anything. There, yes, there's like certificates and, you know, years upon years of doing something, but a good chunk of it, or I would say a good chunk, but sometimes you don't know you're a master or something until you're actually being told that you are. If that makes any sort of sense. - I mean, that comes down to the confidence. Having confidence in yourself. I've mentioned in a previous episode about one of the, my old texts, she was very, or not very confident in herself, but she knew it all. So we had to just put her here. Sorry, put her in experiences that would show her that she knew what she was doing. - Right, like kicking them out of the nest almost. - Putting me into the apple pours, that was how I put it. - It's not weird, okay. I mean, I mean, it is weird, but it is weird. I can't, I take that back, it is totally weird. It's flat out weird. But the analogy's still the same, right? Like we're taking you off your safety so you can go do things, right? We don't want you to stay tethered to us to what you feel is the norm. - But I only try to leave that lifeline when they're in their early phases of this. So like, okay, if you're running the issues, I'm talk to us, but I would like to see if you can do this on your own at first. - Right. - Later on, I will cut that completely off. But at that point, they've already proven that they can do this. They're just proving to themselves that they can do it. - Yes. And I feel like there comes a realization point or a light bulb moment when someone sees like a master, let's just call it this, a master that they're aspiring to be or there's an angle that they're aspiring to achieve. And they realize that someone who's already there still makes mistakes, right? And I feel that that's like a topic that we really ought to hit more times than we give it than we don't, right? Like just 'cause you've been doing this for so long or just 'cause you've had such a like an ability or an attribute for this, it doesn't mean that you're immune for mistakes or it's damning that you have 'em, right? - I mean, everybody makes mistakes for a human. The, I remember in the Air Force, the QA rates were based on that. Like we had to have a 90% QA pass rate for the month. 'Cause the way we did it, our QA in the Air Force was based on a 10%. It was much more quality assurance versus quality control. They'd only come out and inspect us for the work we were doing to let us know what training we had to do. It wasn't like every job had to be QA'd. We did that ourselves. - Mm-hmm. - Mm-hmm. - That's what I'm trying to do. Okay. - What was that saying before that? - Oh, you're talking about like a, like a, - Who ever is QC? - Yeah. - And like the teachable moments. - Oh, yeah. I mean, our QA would go out and teach, when I was QA in the Air Force, I would go out and teach. I would much rather teach somebody how to do it the correct way or re-align them to do it the right way than to sit there and let them like worry about it as they're trying to show it to me. - Yes. - And I feel like the biggest thing is to respect each other and to be like, okay, so you made a mistake. Cool. Let's move on from this and let's get you back on the right path. - Right, a teachable moment says they, as most people would call it, right? Like, let's use this opportunity as a learning moment instead of me just berating you, giving you a corrective action objective. Only for you to A, not learn what was actually went wrong, but to just demoralize you to not wanting to make any type of advancements towards learning in the first place because you fear making a mistake. - Now I will say that I take rules very literally sometimes and I have had kids that worked for me like when I was active duty, he was fully qualified asking me to check his work and I was a straight up dick to him. - I mean, if you're fully qualified, you should know what you're doing and you're just asking me to, hey, I'm ready for my inspection. If you're fully qualified, you shouldn't be asking me to come check your work. - Not a requirement though, like you didn't have to. - And he told me red X discrepancies and specifically this one, I made this kid try over safety wire. He was fully qualified. He should know what good safety wire looks like and he kept asking me to come check it and I kept cutting it. - Yeah, I mean, so from that aspect, I kind of get it right. So if you're fully qualified and you're asking me to come do it, there's only one reason you're doing it and that's because you're not confident in your capabilities and you need to scapegoat. So if I come and say, it's good and then someone down the road says, oh, that's bad. And you say, well, QA bought off on it, so it's fine. That kind of crap, it just drives me nuts and I run into that all the time. Hey, we need you to come out here and witness this motor install. Why? Yeah, yeah, you have to sit there with us the whole time. Do you tell me I have to sit there with you the whole time you're installing a motor which takes you guys about eight hours to do? Yeah, why is it? Well, it's in the way it'll ensure that it gets done right. You're telling me the only way you're gonna do your job right is if I'm sitting there making sure you're doing your job right. Sounds like we have more of a culture problem and problems of people you're hiring versus a quality problem because what you want is a scapegoat. So anything that gets damaged, dicked up or messed up, then at that point, you can go, well, they were, QA was there, so it's really their fault. They could have stopped us. What? - So I saw some of that active duty when I was overseas. So I worked Casey 135 for like 16 years and at home station, when I was in the States and we had people that were like stationed at that base for almost their entire career, we had people who knew how to change an engine better than QA did because they'd been on that aircraft their entire career. But when I was overseas, we had guys that were coming in from different aircraft. So we had an actual, what they call the KTL is a key task list of jobs that QA had to come out and inspect afterwards because the experience levels were lower being overseas. Just the way that the system was built and everything, people coming from different airframes, they may not be as accustomed to a Casey 135. So our QA would come out and do a follow-up but it was never like sitting there watching the entire thing. It's kind of like, these are the exact points where I have to look at because it's in the publication or say from a more civilian side, it's what the customer wanted. Like they made a specific demand. Like I wanna see every single engine bolt or engine mount, torque, safety wire, torx drive, whatever the case may be, that's different. That's way different, right? And then going back to the masterpiece of this, right? If you have an individual whose says he's qualified or he or he or she is titled as a master technician and I'm sure that's not really a thing. It may or may not be. I think they call it something different. They're levels, right? Like they're level four of this or level seven or train the trainer or whatever the case may be. You know what I mean? Like maybe something outside of master other than say like a pay grade for military people which I think kind of makes some of them a little too complacent with that. But that should be-- - We literally, in the Air Force, we literally follow the same job standards of helper, journeyman, master, and craftsman. - Okay. - So when you're talking master, it makes sense to me what you're saying because a master is a seven level. They're the, 'cause we went from three to five to seven to nine and a seven level was qualified to sign off red Xs. That's how we did our QAs. You've been around for a hot minute. You know what the jobs are supposed to look like. So you're there to ensure that it is correct or to ensure that it will be correct later if you have to fix it now. - And so kind of going, touching base to your guys' points before, right? So that you say you have like this person who's master certified, for instance, and they're having that lack of confidence level to your guys' point prior. Like if you're needing, if you're an air quotes master and you need someone to double check your work, that's kind of like a sign, like maybe you needed some remedial training, man. - I will say it was scary the first time I signed off a red X. I admit that, I remember doing something like that. - Once I got accustomed to it, I was cool with it. So there might be something to the very early stages of master. Like, okay, we get that you're new to being a master. There are some learning curve to this, but overall, yeah, I absolutely agree with it. Later on, they know what they're doing. I didn't just say they don't make mistakes though. - Yes, and that's what I was gonna lead into next. Like some individuals are kind of skittish to either acknowledge that they are masters or to even pursue it because of the mistakes. - Rightly. - I don't wanna have this on my head. I don't wanna have to be the one to be responsible for X, Y, and Z. - I feel like there's a lot of leaders out there who don't allow their people to make mistakes and/or teams to feel like they can't make a mistake prior because of a boss they've had before. It may not even be the boss they have then, but it's some kind of internal driven, I have to be correct, I can't make mistakes. Day one, when I showed up, I'm like, you can make mistakes, just don't make them twice. Learn from your mistakes, that's all I ask of you. And even then, even if they make the same mistake twice, if it was like, I can see that they've made improvement, cool, I'm just happy you've learned something. - And then you hold, and just to clarify, you will hold this especially with master level technicians, or like senior level. - Absolutely, I have. I have a guy who's been working as a flight test technician for 40 years. And does he make mistakes very rarely? But when he does, much like the, what was it? Harry Potter series Dumbledore mentions, when I do make mistakes, they're a bit bigger. Yeah, they can be a bit larger when you're a master because you know what you're doing, but at the same time, you know how to bounce back too. You have some resilience. - Ooh, there it is, that's a big point. And I appreciate you for mentioning that part 'cause there's a lot of, I've seen two camps when it comes to master skill level technicians. You have the ones who are, you know, they feel like they have to be so perfectionist to the point where they psych themselves out, right? Like they, in MVP, one of MVP's words, like they over plan to the point of failure, or they overcompensate to the point of failure. And then the second camp is like, they feel too arrogant about their skill set, right? To arrogant to the point where like it's wrong, but they don't say anything about it. It can't be wrong because I'm the master, or it can't be wrong because I'm the skilled technician, et cetera, et cetera. I retired from the Air Force after 20 years of doing avionics. And my first job out of the military, I was put into a kind of a hands-on class with two brand new just got their license and P's never touched an air thrash prior to that course. They weren't military or anything. And one of them had a problem putting on connectors. Like, I don't know why he just didn't, couldn't figure out how to put the pressure on there correctly. But I still made him follow me up whenever I did a connector. I'm like, I want you to go look at it. He's like, why mean? I'm not good at that. I'm like, you may not be good at it, but you can look in there and see if the walking pin is in the right position to verify if I did the right job. He's like, yeah, but you've been doing this for 20 plus years. I'm like, yeah, but that doesn't mean I don't make mistake. Be humble. We all make mistakes. There's a reason, like I said earlier, the Air Force has a 90% quality, right? We're human, we make mistakes. Asking somebody to follow us up is never a bad thing. I always ask, even the youngest of my people. And I do that so that they know that they can make mistakes 'cause I am willing to admit that I make mistakes. You know, that's very empowering stuff. I'm throwing in some coaching words here. Like that's actually very empowering because when you see someone who's at a point in their skill progression, that you get you aspire to get to. And they're not just humble, but they're open about it about making mistakes. That kind of empowers you like, okay, so like I don't have to like scrutinize everything to the point of failure, right? - No, you can do your job like the military uses tech data. We have to follow tech data every time there's a tech order because at least in the Air Force, because the secretary of the Air Force is the signature on it. So everybody has to follow the tech data. That doesn't mean that I'm not gonna make mistakes, but it does mean that I have a generalized, I know exactly what I'm doing because this tech data is gonna tell me how to do it. But I still wanted people to follow me up on my work just because of what we did. Like it's that important to me to ensure that I installed this part correctly, even if I have a brand new kid that I'm telling him what to inspect for, 'cause he's so new, but do neural knobs being completely connected and all the connectors on this LRU, I don't wanna just go off of just my word. I would rather have somebody, even if it's somebody young, follow me up. And then later on when they are the master and they might remember that, but hey, you know what? It wasn't scary to have this, or the seven level when I was brand new wasn't scared to have me inspect his work. So maybe I shouldn't be that scared. Or at least not be arrogant and noise like, I know it's right, you don't have to look because I know it's right. I've, MVP and I have seen too many of those. - Oh, absolutely. - And I think that there's a subliminal lesson there as well, like being that seven level or that skill technician who lets younger, less experienced people look after it. Maybe not necessarily younger, but less experienced. Because if you're that comforting in your work, even though like you wanted to do it as a sanity check, you have like some degree of confidence that it's right, let's say 90% or more. So when they look in there, they can say, okay, so this is what it's supposed to look like when it's right, you know what I mean? Or at least to the extent we're like, okay, there's like, I can find next to no flaws in this. So at least has to be to this standard. So when, so now they have like a baseline to go off if instead of just like, well, the publication or the manual says to make, to do this, like, okay, that's just words and maybe a part's breakdown. What's it supposed to look like when it's in? - They're very valid and you're correct. Like if I do, I never had any of them tell me I did anything wrong. So yes, I did it right the first time and I knew what to look for later on. They watched me inspect my own work. So we had multifunction displays upon the, and from the pilot and the co-pilot, I would always put finger on each of the washers to see if they're spinning. And they're watching me do that. Oh, okay, well, my boss is checking these. And they're not spinning. So maybe that's what I should be looking for when I do this as well, just to ensure that it's fully tightened in to where it should be. - Clearly. And again, going back to the, that's a confidence builder for them as well. 'Cause like, again, knowing like I can be so high, but it's okay for me to make mistakes. And I think that's what also differentiates a master that knows what he's doing or a skilled technician that knows what he or she is doing. First, there's someone who just kind of fills the gap, but it's all filler, you know. - I mean, for me, one of my things that I really enjoy about master technicians is when they're presented a problem, they're just like, oh, whatever. I know how to get around this. Like their experience or goes around just doing the job correctly. They know how to fix a job that's gone incorrect as well. Even if they're the ones who caused it, like they don't take it as a personal flight. They're like, okay, or craft or difficult to work with on the best of days. What, how do we get this back to being correct? - You know what, this just gave me a flashback to a time when MVP was telling me about troubleshooting and how troubleshooting is like a less than practice art. If that, if I'm actually wording that correctly, Mr. MVP. - Yeah, it's an art form, man. Just like treatment of work, that is a skill set that gets honed over a long period of time. I don't think any of us are born naturally good troubleshooting, yeah, some of us are a little more, maybe talented at it or a little more adept at it, you know. But I only think that's built upon whatever your experiences were early on in life. If you're, if you're, did nothing mechanical and then joined the military say with, and we're thrown into a maintenance unit, you know, you're not gonna be, you're not gonna have it right away. And even those who did do mechanical stuff in it earlier in their life, they're still gonna struggle, but that is 100% an art form in and of itself. And people who can, they can just listen. I mean, they'll listen to it taxiing and they'll say, oh, there's something wrong with that igniter on number two. Sure enough, there is, you know. - I remember my first base, and I've mentioned this to other jet mechanics, the propulsion mechanics. Talking to C-130, jet mechanics versus talking to like a turbofan mechanic. They're like, a C-130 mechanic is like talking to a 1950s mechanic, engine mechanic on a car like, oh yeah, I was doing this, I was doing that, blah blah blah. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, cool. Like that's in the debrief with the air crew. The turbofan guys are almost more like a Maytag repairman. Like they just come in and do services to the air, to the engine, check the oil, check the filters, check the chips. - Yeah, but I mean, I think it's, you know, two different animals, right, that both fly. I mean, if you look at talking to some of your older mechanics who dealt with magnetos and stuff, the amount of things that they know, or like the guys in World War II who worked on the old Merlin engines and stuff, like they know things and the way they can troubleshoot put things together is vastly different than say me and the electronic monstrosities that I've worked on or primarily all electronic monstrosities that I've worked on. - Well, as a good example, I had a friend when I was overseas in England, there was a special operations unit that was there. And the guys that I had worked with in my first space when we were both under special operations was stationed with them, and I was with the Casey 135 unit, and they made him a prosuit after they transferred out the last of the H model 130s, which is what he was accustomed to. He had never worked a J model, and it was a lot more electronic-based for the engine. And he's like, "Yeah, I'll lost your "the time to pull me out for the title "because I would have been more used on the H models. "I don't know anything about these ones." - Well, that kind of just flashed me back to a personal story of mine, like similar story, but it was with the whiskey models of cobras, like AH ones. That was my bread and butter. That's why I cut my teeth on. That's what I learned most of my mechanics stuff on was these whiskey model helicopters. Front to back, I can probably wrap off a whole bunch of stuff, maybe not anymore, but I used to be able to do all kinds of stuff. - And you're still fan. - I mean, I'm mine, but I have to, but after touching with so many different airplanes nowadays and all these different standards, I mean, I probably screwed some stuff up. But anyways, at some point, they were phasing all these out, and they were starting to transition to these newer, more avionics-heavy models with bigger engines and bigger air frames or whatever have yous. And it would, they talk about trying to squeeze 15 pounds into a three-pound bag, but it was just so chock-full of stuff. Like the workable space was just like next to non-existent at the time. And so like I'm looking at this thing, it's just like a wire monstrosity, like, what am I supposed to do with this, right? Like I feel like I'm obsolete, man. Like I have no clue what is going on with this thing. I can tell you like basic flight concepts with this, but you know, as of this very second, I knew nothing, right? But, and I think to you guys this point about having that, that ability to address your weaknesses and understanding the problem and how to work around it or bounce back, say, is you can take what you experienced already and then just build off of it, right? Like you, you, going back to what I've said previously, like I understand the basic concept. I understand like what it's supposed to do. So instead of like these analog switches or these flips or these, these different controls here, now it's these buttons or it's these different parts or whatever the case may be. Similar concept, they're just different, right? So again, to your point, like you understand the problem, you see a, not so much of the mistake, but you see where the gaps are, right? And using your experience as, as what you've been told, been cultivating as a skilled technician, that, okay, I can figure it out, right? - No, for me, experience was my main thing. I knew a couple guys that came into the military talented for avionics and two, precisely. I know two of them. And they, one has since become a doctor at level engineer and the other one is going to school to become an aeronautical engineer. They got it in like a level that I'd never seen and they should absolutely be engineers. I had to build my experience with it. So once I was considered a master technician for my own career field, I had put in years of work to get to that level. But doing that, I'd already seen a lot of like, what can go wrong too. So I already knew how to work around it. - I'm actually reliving that through your experiences if that's, if that's weird. (laughing) - So like it says, I mean, we've all seen it. We've all, I remember my first boss in the Air Force told me aircraft will make you a liar. Get used to that now. 'Cause you'll be like, yeah, this part will fix it. - And that part didn't fix it. - Especially with avionics. Because all our parts do like almost the same damn thing or can at least cause the same damn problem. - I believe it. I definitely believe it. (laughing) I've seen autopilot problems caused by displays and stuff because the way they have, what do you call it? The screech going through some of these displays and everything. You'll have some really weird write-ups from avionics that you'll be like, why did this display cause my autopilot write-up? But that's where experience comes in. - I believe that completely. And to the point about bouncing back and all that, right? So, and then going back to making mistakes, especially as a master, like to your guys as examples of being able to see the problem and being able to address it. And I feel like that's a fundamental trait that every skilled technician, every master technician, every master craftsman just really develops is one being able to acknowledge the mistake, right? Acknowledge it, own up to it, be humble about it. And then to understand the work around, right? I mean, I'm equating this to like say someone who paints, right? I knew a couple of artists who like, they paint some awesome stuff, like just blows my mind awesome maybe because I'm just not artistic like that, but they paint some craziness, like just do it like on a whim. Like I was bored, so I painted the Sistine Chapel on the five by five cameras, like shut up. (laughing) But they would do this and they'll point, and then the first thing I asked was like, hey, that looks awesome. And then they'll say, yeah, you know, but they'll point out their mistakes, right? They'll highlight their mistakes, which is great that they acknowledge it, but me at the skill of I am, like I could not see that for the life of me, but I appreciate that you knew it, right? And then beyond that, like my wife used to make cakes, like high-end level cakes while it's still active duty. And there would be an actual mistake like with frosting, like very, very visible mistake and something you can't just bounce back from easily 'cause it's fondant or something along those lines. He was a master in that she knew how to still repair that mistake that she had caused. So masters, and this is where I try to make sure all my master technicians, the people that I rely on the most are aware I still allow them to make mistakes. I just expect them to be able to bounce back better from it. - Yeah, I always ask, right, you know, get called out to the floor or whatever. Hey, we got this problem. Okay, I appreciate you being open and honest and tell me how did it happen. We'll see how I did this, that, and the other. Great, again, thanks for being open and honest. But don't worry, we can fix it. Oh, you can't, okay. Then, when's it gonna be ready? Well, we're actually halfway through the repair now. - That was one of the best ones. - Fair enough? - I'm doing this solution. Don't come through us with a problem. - Yeah, that's exactly it. And I tell people that all the time, I said, I said, anybody can point out problems. I said, but if you come with a problem, but also a solution, then you've just made my life easier. I'm gonna make your life easier in sports any way I can to help you make that solution work. And I always make a point to say, hey, you know, you mess this up, but you're actually fixing it. And you could have easily hid this from me and I had to never know. But I appreciate you having enough respect. - Integrity. - And integrity, and especially respecting me enough to be able to be open enough to tell me about the issue. They said, well, you know, you've always been good with us. We just wanna keep you in the loop. So in case somebody ever says anything, you're not blindsided. - I was gonna mention that that you had to have cultivated trust for them to trust you to not lose your shit when you went out there. So that's also a kudos to you. - Well, I appreciate that. It's one of those where it's just like, hey, you know, I always quote Bob Ross. There's no mistakes, only happy accidents, right? So hey, we did this. - We were there for us. - We learned that this was from the Air Force, dude. - You know what he was talking about? - Hey, look at that. - That's what I'm saying though. That's what I'm saying. I always reference him because you say, you know, look, we did this and we didn't know it could go wrong. Now we do and now we don't do that again. We've learned from the mistake and oh, we learned that actually the tech data is actually missing this crucial piece of information. So we've already, not only were we fixing what we've got messed up, we've already submitted the pub change as well. My God, you guys are on it. You know what I mean? Everyone's got pulled side butt by a captain to fix one of our tech data, RTOs. It was for degaussing the skull plate on a case 135 because that's where the whiskey compass sits at and it can affect how the compass reacts and everything. And our tech data didn't have any pictures except for the one time they decided to put a picture in there for how to degauss an aircraft and you had us sitting on a B5 stand reaching out between the rungs to degauss it. And I was like, so captain, if either I follow the picture and get the safety violation or I don't follow the picture and get the tech data violation, which one should I go for? - You gotta be between a rock and a hard place here. - You need to remove that like, oh, no. This picture is my favorite picture. (laughing) - I'm laminating this picture. (laughing) - This is mine now. (laughing) But I'm glad you guys brought up this point and this is definitely something I really wanted to ask and slash-timer homes. Like, how do you teach that? You know, like, how do you teach A for a master to be open and honest and then B, like for someone who's aspiring to be a skilled technician, master craftsman and so forth, to be okay with making set mistakes and then, you know, like to not just be okay with making them, but to actually like learn from it. - When it comes down to you have to have trust that your management is going to react the way that they said they're going to react. So if their boss says, hey, you're allowed to make mistakes, just learn from them. And then yelled at them for making a mistake. It's not very authentic and they're not going to believe that that manager, that boss anymore. But if they actually come back and say, you know what, you're allowed to make these mistakes and yes, you made a mistake, but you came back with a solution and I highly respect that. That's just building them up. - Yeah, no master got there to be a master without making mistakes. It's like any other part of life. That's how we learn and grow. So, just know that you're going to and you're not exempt from it. Nobody is. I don't care how good you think you are. - Yeah, absolutely. - But yeah, you know, like Rod said, if your management says making mistakes is part of it and we all do it, then know that, you know, they're probably gonna give you a response like, hey, I messed up, but I got a solution. This and that and the other, fine. It's all well and good. But if they snap at you 24/7, I mean, you know, again, are you still going to make mistakes? Sure, you're just going to instead of getting better at fixing them, you're going to get better at hiding them. - Yes, thank you for that. - And many management who like to yell and rant and rage, they're only hurting themselves by yelling. But yeah, you're not making better master texts. You're master texts. You're creating master liars. - Absolutely. - An illusionist. Hey, is that broke over there? No, I ain't broke, fam. - This is not how we do it, but. - Last unit before I retired, we had a captain that was always trying to hide shit when we go off to the kernels at the end of the day or whatever to say what the plan is for the next 24 hours. And he was always trying to hide shit and he'd get mad at me 'cause I'd always just be airing all our dirty laundry. But I follow up the dirty laundry with how we're fixing it. And I told the captain one day, I was like, dude, this tunnel is enjoying it much more if you show them that you have a solution. Like they also have to trust you much sooner. - Right. - Exactly. - I would tell people to know this, you're going to get an ass chewing from the higher ups, but the ass chewing you're going to get from being open and honest is going to be far less than the one that once your mistakes that you've tried to hide get exposed. - Absolutely right, yes. And I now extend the management piece to not just the management, but say like say other masters or your mentors slash instructors slash coaches, right? 'Cause like to a previous point we get we all, you've mentioned like sometimes you get assigned someone to kind of take you under the wing and teach you the ropes or whatever. Or you just have like this general culture in the shop that everyone kind of has an idea of what they're doing. So like when they teach down this stuff, they also kind of teach down their habits to responding, right? If that makes any sort of sense, right? So like say like a new kid comes in like, "Hey, I bugged up this toe job." And they were like, "Oh my God, again?" You know, like they just-- - Yeah, with the master text, right? And trying to maybe hide stuff from a master tech. Look, you can't bullshit a bullshooter. - Yes. (laughing) - They've been in the game longer than you. And trust me, trust me, you're not teaching them anything they haven't seen or tried themselves. - Even that few way knows all the shady jobs. Like they know how to do all the shady stuff jobs. - I mean-- - 'Cause they do it. - I know I probably, I know I probably wrote, I probably wrote the manual on shady jobs. - I mean at least-- - At least some of the chapters in there I wrote. - I can't confirm nor deny. (laughing) I know my image is in there for some things that we shouldn't do. - You're like, "Hey, you know what? "I, you taught me how to do this job "and you just found me on this." (laughing) - That was a different time, man. (laughing) I'm trying to teach you to be better to me, damn it. (laughing) - I mean, there's a hole in a hanger in Afghanistan with my initials on it. You know? (laughing) It happens. - It does happen. - You know, I mean from the mentorship/coaching piece or the teaching down piece, right? Yes, there's good and fun in like kind of breaking the ice as far as like talking smack to the person you're instructing or to your fellow skill technicians or your masters. There's some shop fun in this, right? But when it starts turning, it starts getting out of hand when it starts turning into fear or hazing almost, and I think that's like probably like the worst way of doing it where you fear like just being open and honest about it because you just don't wanna have that beratement, you know? Then it gets a little out of hand, right? And that's what kind of, that also derails people from being open and honest, not just from your, your management's piece, right? But like some people don't give a, for lack of words don't give a shit what your management says, right? But if their peers look down on them, then it's like more damaging, you know? Yeah, I'd rather hate it way worse if my peers like me less than management does, you know? Like what kind of a dirt bag am I? Yes. And if you two hated me more than my own boss, I'd be like, I have taken a wrong turn somewhere. (laughing) I'm in the wrong place. But I also know, to you guys' point about the bounce back part, right? So yeah, you acknowledge your mistake. Yes, you're gonna get the shop-ass chewing or you get the poking fun from your peers. But that's also kind of part of like the learning process, right? As long as it doesn't get way out of hand, right? I'm gonna reference this for everyone's, like hazing is completely wrong. (laughing) But there is a lot that can be said, like, I have a tech, I'm gonna put this out there in the podcast verse. I have an issue with showing up on Mondays. I will admit this. I don't know how many Mondays I have skipped out at least part of the day. One of my techs calls me out on it. And I laugh every time because she's laughing too. And that's an environment that allows them to call me out when I'm doing things that are not within the normal standards, you know what I mean? Like, I want them to be able to call me out on that kind of stuff, jokingly. Because it does still, yes, it's calling me out. But they're doing it in a white-hearted way that I know that they're not trying to be mean or anything. - Yes, and I think that kind of goes again with what you guys have said before with like that foundation of trust, right? Or that environment of trust. We trust each other that when it matters, we're gonna be there, right? And so like when we know that we can actually trust each other to make the job happen or to admit mistakes and find the work around that when we have like these simple mistakes or quips, right? Or shortcomings. We can post fun of it and we know it's gonna be nothing more than that, right? - Yeah, just to let each other know, hey, I noticed this, but it's not a big deal, we all make mistakes, whatever. In my point, I still, I probably won't score a call next Monday. (laughing) - I'm kind of jealous of that, to be honest. - I don't know how I grew the skill, but I did. And I love it. - What I like to do is like later in the, like as the week drags on and it gets closer to the weekend, the fun meter gets more pegged and it takes everything I have to make it through the end of the day. So what I do is I'll usually send my, my one and only employee out message and then say, "Hey, what do you got going on?" Ah, nothing just kind of messing around with some Excel formulas or whatever, just as a side thing to see if I can improve this tracking system we got going on. But it's nothing, you know, critical, just something I kind of, like I said, like a little personal project. And I guess cool, how would you feel about starting your weekend early? - I would love that. Great. Have a good weekend. And it started out like, "Ha ha ha, you're not gonna, you're not gonna get me, you know what I mean?" But then built over time, it was one of those, oh, he's being serious, I can get out of here and there's gonna be no repercussions and I'll get, and I'm not gonna be short changed on, you know what I mean, on hours or whatever else. And that's morphed into, I'm only leaving if you leave and I will drive over to where your desk is at to make sure you're not there. You know what I mean? That's how it's gotten. So, or they'll call me on the cell to make sure that I answered and they're like, "Oh, you're not inside, okay, all right." (laughs) - They're calling you out of time. - They're calling me out, but it's one of those like, but I would live through them, like, "All right, if I can't make my own life better, let me make somebody else's better." But they've also recognized where they're like, "No, no, no, you're gonna get this too." - I had some airmen when I was a section chief, just brand new as an E7 Master Sergeant. I was working like 16 hour days and one of my, my shop, I had worked with her, she's like, "Started Ruby, you need to go home." I thought it was like, I wish I could, but thank you for looking out for me. She was only like a senior, I mean, E4, E4 mafia, it's kind. And here I am in E7, she's trying to tell me to go home 'cause I've worked so long. And I took, I appreciated that so much. - I mean, I will probably be the same way 'cause I've always, I've always instilled this kind of culture, like, you don't want the senior person to be around more than you, right? - Mm-hmm. - So it's kind of like, "Hey, Sergeant, I got this, you can totally go home "and do Sergeant things," you know? And like, I just have to tell them they don't do it, but it's kind of like, I just want you out of my hair so I can, you know, do stuff, right? But, but it-- - No, that's exactly it. Yep. - But in here, I can't operate in the gray area that I want to. And I know you would back me if I wanted to, but I don't want to put you in that position as my boss. So get the hell out of here, you know what I mean? - Yeah, like, you might, I think you have other stuff you should go take care of. Yeah. - They would actually come and tell me, too, they would be like, they would come back and I was like, why are you still here? Well, I'm just finished up these reports. That sounds stupid. And I'm sure it is stupid. They could probably wait 'til tomorrow. Oh, I'm almost done. And then like, they would sit down at their computers and then five minutes later, it'd spin in their chairs and I come in and be like, "Get out of here!" (laughing) Go on, get the white thing. You know, they'd start finding things to throw at me. Like, maybe there's like a little stress ball or something soft and you're like, "Get out of here!" (laughing) - But that's the environment part, right? And I don't do it because I also wanna just be a shady person, but it's also along the lines like, "Hey, I know what I'm doing. "I have confidence in that you don't have to be here "to ensure that it's right, right?" Kind of going back to a previous story where you guys mentioned where they have to, QA has to be able to watch the whole thing. Like, no, no, no, I know what I'm doing. We all know what's going on. We have a handle on it. You don't need your assistance. You can do other things, whatever other things are, right? - Yeah. - Right, yes, right, and that does, again, to the environment that we're all trying to cultivate and the safety of it all, being able to make mistakes, right? If something goes sideways, I know who to call or we know who to call and we'll probably do every attempt to fix it before we tell you, so. - You do know that a lot of my techs, when I was running a flight line, would wait as long as they could to tell me any updates 'cause they didn't want to make it official. - Or, I've had some similar word. They won't tell me until they've exhausted every means that they tried to fix it. - I've had that one. Why didn't you tell me? Well, because there are several different ways I could try to fix it and before I ran it up the flagpole, I just wanted to see if I could get it fixed first. So that way when I came and told you, say, "We got a problem, but it's already fixed," you know? - Yeah, well, it'll just happen. Sometimes we have better solutions, too. - True, true. - Correct, but I also don't, I also don't, the way it makes it worse. - I'm gonna try to fix things. - Right, 'cause that's gonna stifle their creativity. - Yes, and then I'm gonna hold on. - The only time I've ever yelled at somebody for trying to go above and beyond was we had regulation in the Air Force that said you couldn't work beyond 12 hours on the flight line for liability reasons. Like it had to be the Colonel who signed off on that, 'cause it was going to be the Colonel's name who was gonna get in trouble if you got hurt. And I had some guys that stayed for like 14 hours and as soon as I heard that they were still there, I went out and yelled at them. I was like, "You can't be here." "Everybody between you and the Colonel "is about to get smacked if you get hurt. "Get out of here." - Yep. - And I've had that talk too. - I've had that talk too. - That's the only time I've ever gone into trying to hold them back, but it was based on safety as well. You're not entirely present after 12 hours. - Right, but Thomas said, "None of this is important. "None of this is important in hurting yourself or others "to show that you can do this is dumb." So get out of here and this will fly when it flies. You know what I mean? - Absolutely, yes. - I didn't feel as super mission critical that it flew. We would have worked workarounds 14 hours ago and this thing would have already been on mission. You know what I mean? - Yes, very much so, sir. I agree fully. - I kind of thought and I lost it to bring in this. - Well, going back to what MVP was saying earlier about sending people home and everything, I would like to point out that yes, overtime pay is great in everything, but the one thing that our people want is more time with their family. If you can give them like, okay, you're still getting your pay, but you can go spend some time with your family, it's gonna pull so much more out of them than just saying, hey, you've got time and a half. - Yes. - One thing I try to instill is money comes and goes. Yes, it does it pay the bills and all that, sure. But it comes and goes. You work, you know, you worked all this overtime, but then you were laid off. Well, I'm glad I did because now I'm laid off and I got this, sure, but let's say you got, you know, you got laid off and then hit by a bus. Okay, well, a lot of good that money did you, you're gone and now your family misses you. - Yep, mm-hmm. - Again, my example-- - John took place to you. - Super extreme. My examples are always super extreme, but based off of real scenarios. So it's one of those where it's like, I always try to teach them like, yeah, the money's good. It comes and goes. I was like, but what you're not gonna get back is time. I said, so that time is super valuable to you. I said, and you can take advantage of every moment that you can and so now usually when I'm like, hey, when I kick off that weekend earlier, you wanna get out of here for the day an hour or two early? Yeah, got it, thanks. But then that also pays dividends the other ways 'cause when I do really need them to work overtime, I never have to go ask anymore. Then you should come and say, hey, we got overtime this weekend, but we've already worked out who's gonna cover. Oh, all right. Thanks, you know what I mean? - Yeah. And that again goes back to that environment of trust too. I love how this all keeps on circling back to that. And then just being able to like work around it, right? Master's galore from all facets, not just the technical side, maybe even the human aspect side or the management side or just getting things done with a solution I think now it's pretty-- - Well, management to me really comes back to or leadership in general or being a master or running a crew. It comes back to something we all learned as very small children. And that is treat others as you wanna be treated. If you had stuff going on in life and at work and you were overly stressed, would you want somebody to come screaming at you, making the situation worse? Or would you rather have somebody come at you and go, "Yeah, that sucks." All right, take off, do this. So and so now, cover, blah, blah, blah. You know, that person's now super appreciative. So now the next time somebody else has got something going on, they're the ones going, "Hey, I got it." Take off and run. You know, to me, it's very simple, but maybe I'm just over simplifying the situation. - Oh, you feel like you're by your people. - Well, yeah, I suppose. (laughing) - You know, on me. I don't know. I just think that's, and you don't even have to be management to do that. You can just be, you don't have to be a lead on a crew. - I mean, just say you think anybody can be a leader. It's a leader is not a position. It's just who leads. But like I said previously as well, every manager is a leader. Whether you're good or bad, you're still leading. - Yeah, just you're either leading them up the hill or into the pit, you know what I mean? - You're in a more despair. (laughing) - I love it. I'm all about it all. That rap rapping is up. We've covered quite a bit. And a lot of these are very applicable to not, to pretty much every stage, really, from the budding new person who not knows, knows next to nothing throughout the whole journey piece of being a skilled master craftsman or a skilled technician or just a skilled manager, right? 'Cause I feel like that's a lacking field as well, right? We have managers, yes, but do we have skilled managers? (laughing) (laughing) - Oh, here's that one, not really. (laughing) - Right, but like the key to a lot of this, right? And we've said it before and you guys have really emphasized what some strong examples is. For one, being able to acknowledge that it's possible that you're gonna make mistakes, period. But it's okay to make these mistakes. And then to emphasize your points, like don't just let the mistake be the mistake, right? Let it be a learning moment. Let it be something that like, okay, this is something I need to work on or come up with a solution for. 'Cause, and I think that's what really, correct me if I'm wrong, I think this is what really separates the master from the novice. So, it's perfectly, I mean, a novice doesn't know how to bounce fast. The master does. That's the biggest fear of making mistakes is the thing that masters do. Like, don't be scared of making the mistake. You just know how to fix it. - I remember one quote where it's like, I think it was from Thomas Edison, where it's like, I didn't fail. I just found, I just discovered 99 waste for it to be wrong, or to not fail. - I just stole Edison's idea. So, sorry about that. - That was an idea. - Yeah. - I mean, Tesla's idea, yeah. - Yeah. - I'm like that. I'm sorry, I totally butchered that. - Nah, this is me, this is me being spoken upon in history. - Like Edison said that I did. - Yeah, damn it, oh shit. (laughing) - I know, I just accidentally killed an elephant. (laughing) - I figured out the threshold of life for an elephant. (laughing) - I figured out how much voltage an elephant can't hold. (laughing) Can't stand. (laughing) - Science. (laughing) - Right, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down. - Woo, really good. (laughing) - Absolutely true, any final words, Mr. MVP? - If you're a leader or manager or whatever and you have a solid team, kudos to you, continue to nurture and foster that and let your team know, not as a whole, I mean, yes as a whole, but also on an individual level, what you appreciate about what that particular person brings to the team. And on the other side, if you are part of that team and you have a leader or manager who does those kind of things, you know, reciprocate, let them know what you appreciate about them and their style of leadership. Let them know that you appreciate that they're, you know, allowing you to be autonomous and flexibility and all these kinds of things, just no more culture of take more from the other than they can take from you, you know, give as much as the other. I guess is what I'm trying to say. - I love it. I fully understood what you were saying, you know, like, boy, it's not just a give and take, right? It's kind of like give for the sake of like fostering a better environment, right? It's not just like, how much can I get from you or what can you get from me, right? - Right, you know, in the episode of "The Office" where Andy Bernard comes down to the Scranton office and he tries to out polite, Dwight, and they just go out trying to outdo each other in niceties the whole day. That's kind of what I'm saying, like, just try to outdo the other. Oh, you held the door for me? I got you one more, I'm gonna run ahead of you and get to the next door. You ain't gonna hold up more doors for me than I hold for you, you know? That kind of a thing. - Hell yeah, I'm all about it. Mr. Rod, any final thoughts and parting words and advice for those who are aspiring to be masters, the ones that are and any advice for the leadership? - Well, we've already started the humble. There's no reason to have a QGO for anything that we do. - Respect is, we've come from this area that respect is earned and it should really just be like, oh, you're human, I'm gonna respect you. And then I'm gonna have an area of respect to the side for your experience. So, I'm kind of getting lost off topic here. - I feel like, 'cause it's such a layered topic, you know what I mean? - Yes. - You know, like, yeah, yeah, I give you respect, but at the same time, I feel it's kind of like the lines, like I respect it, so automatically give him, right? But it's also one of those, like it's very easy to lose, right? - Yes. - So, like, if you don't just, if you don't reciprocate it, if you don't pay in, not pay into it, but if you don't, like, help nurture it along, it's gonna die out, right? - I will go, Roman women say that I won't let it die out for my texts. I make sure that I am appreciating them all the time because they haven't been trained to what I do. To what NDP was saying, I would heavily appreciate if they gave me any symptom of the things that I'm doing that they appreciate. Like, I had one of my texts tell me recently that she had never had a boss who was actually, like, keeping up with what's going on in her family, kind of thing before. That was very good to hear because they tell me that I'm doing the right thing. I'm keeping up with her. But yeah, that's the kind of feedback I look for, not necessarily, like, oh, giving me back, like, leadership pointers kind of thing. - A little bit, man. Again, and again, like, these are all ways, you know, to just kind of foster that along, right? And I love the part that you mentioned that you're just not gonna like to let the respect go below a certain point because at the end of the day, you're still human and I still have at least that for you, right? Maybe, like, you earned a little bit more trust, I guess that's the word, right? You got an a little bit more trust being able to showcase that what you're talented at that you're capable of not just making the mistakes but learning from them, right? Versus like someone who just makes mistakes for the sake of making them. So I feel like that, I feel that all and I understand it all. And again, for like everyone else out there, for it's not just about making the mistakes for the sake of making them. And it's not just like, well, you're only a master if you're able to do this, right? It's an evolving goal kind of thing, right? Like, you, how do I say this in a better way? Like, it's not just one standard that this is it and this is all you should aspire to. It's one of those, it constantly evolves so you gotta evolve with it. You gotta adapt and match it for what the situation entails, right? 'Cause some mistakes that you can only make them once, period. Like, you know, some mistakes you don't get to do over, you know, like mixing the wrong blood in a patient, like that's kind of it. There's no give, there's no givebacks after that. But like, if it's a mistake that you can, that's a learnable time, like actually learnable, then don't be afraid to make it, right? And to that extreme point where I- - Why do we have people following us up? - Yes, yes, and to that point, exactly. And another way to help follow this up and help read your potentials is to check out Rod and all his different lessons that he has on leadership AF. And where can we find you again, Rod, for that? - I am on TikTok, Instagram, and LinkedIn. - Hell yeah. And the LinkedIn ones I love especially, just because it's more of a snapshot, I would say, like it's more audience focused on LinkedIn, if I'm saying that correctly. - Yeah, I'm also trying to like hit up higher exacts than everything on there. So I'm like, or sending invites out to a lot of executive level people on there trying to get their buying on this as well. - And then that's another one too, 'cause like, just 'cause you're executive doesn't mean there's no room for learning. You may have learned quite a bit, but there's always still room to evolve. But hey, let us know what you- - One might say you have the most to learn. - Yes, yes, right? And especially kind of like the mistakes that you make as we alluded before are more profound. - Right. - It's more noticeable, it's more felt, it's more reverberating. But hey, let us know what you guys think. What sort of topics resonated with you the most? What do you know about masters and their ability to make mistakes and learning from them? And what sort of gaps have you noticed that you feel that you could work on? Hey, let us know in the comments and our social medias, emails, our website, whichever is the absolute easiest for you. The best way to get a hold of us and have conversations just like this and be more in-depth and involved is in through our Discord channel via Patreon. Mr. Rob, appreciate you again for coming on for another episode. This was very fun and very enlightening and insightful. And it's always great having guests come back. That's a love that part. It's always great having guests, especially if they return again. On that note, everybody, we appreciate you again for listening and we'll catch you on the next one. Bye, everybody. - Bye, Rob. - Bye. 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