This is Tom Fox, and welcome to the latest addition to the compliance podcast network. After having recorded, produced, hosted, and guested in over 5,000 podcasts, I decided it was time to have a podcast about what else, podcasting. With a series I will visit with podcast hosts to learn about their love of podcasting, what they have been able to achieve through podcasting, and why you need to consider starting a podcast. This series will be fun, witty, chatty, the dash of Drua Devi for both entertainment and education. I hope you will join me as I explore the world of podcasting. Today I visit with Marilyn Jenkins. Marilyn has a podcast production business and has some great ideas about why your business needs a podcast. She works primarily in the legal space, but has lots of ideas that will work in the corporate setting as well. I know you will enjoy this episode. First a word from the sponsor of the compliance podcast network, Ethico. As I mentioned at the start of this podcast, the sponsor for the entire compliance podcast network is Ethico. Well, Ethico has a great new offering this month for you, a toolkit for middle managers. This is something that you as the compliance professional can use to move your compliance program forward by giving middle managers the skills necessary to answer a call for speak up or when someone comes in their office and raises a concern. I can't think of a tool that will be more valuable for you in the current era of enforcement. Hello, everyone, this is Tom Fox back for another episode and I'm absolutely thrilled today to have Marilyn Jenkins. Marilyn, first of all, welcome and thank you so much for taking the time to visit with me. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and one of the reasons I'm so excited is because Marilyn is as passionate as I am about why every business and even more specifically every law firm needs a podcast. So we are definitely going to get to that, but Marilyn, before we do, I wondered if you could share with our audience a little bit about your professional background. Absolutely. I've been in digital marketing for a long time, started like a lot of people helping friends with websites and then growing into doing digital marketing ads and SEO and that kind of thing. And through referrals, I've got to work with some attorneys, which is really great. And I've been working with attorneys since about 2018. And one of the things that come across working with attorneys and other businesses is some are not quite at the ready, at the point of being ready to pay for outside marketing, outsource their marketing. So I put together a book that explains step by step everything, pardon me, everything you need to do for your Google business profile and set that up as an example as well for attorneys that want to do books. It's an e-book, a PDF download and it also is an audio book and that sort of thing. So what I'm doing for myself, I'm also doing for attorneys and helping them grow their firms by reaching their local market. So my favorite stories in trying to, and I think everyone on this podcast knows, I'm a recovery trial lawyer and probably a recovering attorney, but the, I've tried to market to other law firms and I've actually got the argument, they really need to be billing hours and not wasting their time talking to you. Why is that so inane in 2024? It's almost like there's certain industries that just don't want to move forward when it comes to digital marketing and your market is online. It's just, it can't be denied. I mean, look at anything, even look at politics, they're going online to find the voters. You have to be online. You have to deal with your digital presence too in order to get these new customers. So you mentioned you have been in the digital space for quite some time and I was really intrigued to see that you were actually in the digital book publishing space or at least book selling space. Could you tell us a little bit about that part of your journey? Yeah. So in, in the late nineties, yes, I'm dating myself in the late nineties, I had the idea of being able to read your newspaper on your phone or on a tablet, which was way new. We had the Palm pilot and that sort of thing back then. Then of course, newspapers became electronic. So I moved into books and we were working with cyber read was the company. We were publishing books. We actually worked with Random House and some of the larger publishing houses when they first moved into ebooks and I would help authors publish their books in electronic and in print. And it was really exciting to work in publishing and being on the cutting edge of ebooks and helping people. We would supply bookstores across the globe and that was the first my team and I've built one of the first persistent books bookshelves. So from one purchase to another, it's every day thing now with your Kindle. You can go into Amazon and go to your Kindle or your Barnes and Noble and you can download any book you bought. In fact, then it was new. So it was a lot of technology growth as well as publishing growth and learning more about the authors and what they're putting into their books. Could you tell us about how you evolved into podcasting was a natural extension of what you had done previously in your career? Was it something new and different? What brought you to our world? One of my coaches is a podcaster and he suggested doing podcast guessing to kind of get the message out about what we're doing. As it's different, you want to get in front of the audience that they're listening to and so this seemed to be a really good way of getting out there, telling about the book and trying to educate people on the Google Business profile. So I've been podcast guessing for a long time and a few months ago, people kept bringing it up. You should do your own. You should do your own. June, July started working on the podcast and we officially launched the end of July and our ratings are going pretty well and downloads are growing. So that's exciting. We've officially published as of tomorrow, six episodes and we have lined up probably another 30. So it's certainly something that's growing more than I expected and it's getting an audience really quickly, which is exactly what you want. That's fabulous. Let's turn now to law firms, you touched on one reason we haven't seen as in many law firms embrace podcasting as perhaps you and I might like or think as appropriate and that's just that lawyers are inherently conservative and our profession is inherently conservative. Can I flip that to ask you, when you sit down with a prospective client, what do you tell them the advantages of having a podcast or the reasons they should have a podcast? Just to build authority, so you're sitting at behind your desk, you've got all those big books behind you and you know all the stuff that people know, but the normal person doesn't feel like an attorney is really approachable. So what you're doing is you're showing people with your podcast with lead magnets on your website, all of these different things that you are a trusted resource, that you are an authority and you're telling them exactly how you can help them and it's just, it makes complete sense to get it out there and be approachable. People learn your voice, they learn how you are and it just makes sense to be approachable and I know that seems silly and simple, but you want a thought leader whenever I'm going to get someone when I need help with something whether it's a divorce or an accident or whatever, I want to know that I feel like I know the attorney before I walk to the door. So I heard three things in there. I heard number one, you started with thought leadership and certainly you want to demonstrate your expertise in a particular area. Then you heard a, I heard approach ability, abilityness, that's a word and that's the audio part and I try to explain to people there's something about the audio format that is more powerful, certainly than the written word and perhaps even more powerful than video and it brings a level of trust that you don't get in those other formats and I've read some scientific studies that back that up but I can't tell you the number of times I've been at a conference and someone said I recognize your voice, I recognize your voice and I'm a prodigious consumer of podcasts and the ones I have on weekly or sometimes daily rotation, I feel like I'm sitting across the table having a cup of coffee with a friend listening to them talk and I can't frankly think of a more powerful way to communicate than that and the third thing I heard you say was that the lawyer is providing the information on how it can solve the client's problem so it's actually marketing your skills to your target market. Does this approach work for literally the solo practitioner up to the white shoe, New York worldwide firm? Absolutely, absolutely and also think about it whenever you're looking at people think about the expense, podcasting is not that expensive, it is also a marketing expense so there's no limit to the amount of money you spend on marketing so you can take it off your taxes so there's a lot of benefits to doing it so I mean it just makes a lot of sense but yeah I mean you definitely want to get your voice out there, you don't have to do video and I know a lot of attorneys don't want to have certain opinions or they don't want to be on camera because they're camera shy or whatever, you don't have to publish the video, it can be just audio and the thing is just conversations. We don't need dissertations, no one's going to listen to a TED talk once a week from the same person but listening to conversations, that's exactly what I do online, I love bringing in people that are relatable to the industry whether it's an actual attorney or a service provider or anything like that, it's a conversation that's fun to listen to. - Really, do you ever either have the discussion or make the suggestion along the lines of asking a lawyer, do you do a client alert and the answer is typically yes, they say why don't you read that as a podcast, do you ever have that conversation, you're already doing it, why not just move to audio? - Yeah, that is a good point, yeah that's a very good point, yeah I mean update, when we talk about what to put on your Google Business profile on your blog, that's the thing, is the more you put out there, the more information you're giving Google and your potential new clients, so make a podcast out of it, read those things, it's great information. - So when I sit down with a client or usually a potential client and I explain to them the podcast service that I have available, I tell them the podcast is actually about 40% of it, the other part is the social media marketing assets that I create, I create video grams at 60 seconds or less for Twitter, Facebook Reels and YouTube Shorts in one, two minutes or less are linked in and I explain those are evergreen and you can use those on any of those platforms I just named, you can also use them on Instagram, Twitter if you're so inclined, excuse me, TikTok if you're so inclined, but they're generally evergreen because the topic is some legal subject that someone's always going to want information on and so that you develop sort of a catalog of social media sharing assets, is that a part of your offering and is that a part of the discussion you have with your clients? - Yes and actually thanks to you, we've solidified a little bit more about the Shorts, so we've always been, you'll get sample social media posts for different platforms, right, with the link to your particular episode, however, after having our initial conversation, my team creates Shorts for me from my podcast, guesting and the podcast that I create and so now we're doing that for all of our clients, you'll get at least three, sometimes seven to nine Shorts to use on your social media and access to the original video if you want to build your YouTube channel, so it's a win for everyone, you get more content, I get more exposure, you get more exposure, it makes a lot of sense. - So you mentioned one thing in there, I'd like to pick up on which I think I heard you say you actually write out some social media shares for Twitter, perhaps Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and I have found that's absolutely necessary to do because lawyers are not going to do that, but even if the law firm has a CMO or other marketing type that they don't have any other resources, so the more information assets you can provide to them, the more they're going to use those, has that been your experience or do you find the law firms want to do that as well? - Now I've absolutely, I find that it's when you want someone to leave you a review, they want you to know what they want to know what to say, so instead of making it a question and saying please share this with your network, up here we're going to give it to you, copy and paste this and put it on the platform. - So what are some of the other strategies you help law firms with beyond podcasts, you've mentioned several times about Google, how do you help lawyers improve their Google ranking? - SEO has been this big cloud of gosh I don't know what all of them is involved in that, with Google My Business, which is what most of us recognize from a place to store your reviews, it's new integration, new being two years, it's Google Business Profile, this is a free listing, free, can I say free, the free service from Google, that you can tell Google all of the things you do, you can do post, you can do audios, you can do videos, you can, it's almost like your own blog, right, and everything you give Google tells them which searches and more searches that you can be found in, so that's the big thing about your Google Business Profile, we coach on that, we actually, like I said, I wrote the book on how to do it, if you don't want someone outsourcing to do it for you, or we can do it for you. - The strategies you have articulated I think work not simply with law firms but with any business, and I live in a rural part of West Texas, so part of my mission is try to communicate to local businesses in a small town of 20,000 people, this can be a powerful social media marketing tool for you, do you find any validity in that approach? - Absolutely, and from doing the podcast guessing, my book has been sold to many different industries, the book isn't specifically outlined to law firms, that's what I market it to, but any business that's a local business with a Google Business Profile can be found, so let's think about when you're a consumer, you want to find something, you're walking down the street, oh I wonder if that pet store is open today, you search for it, right, you pull out your file and you search on Google, the pretty part in the middle of the screen are maps, everybody listed in the maps is your Google Business Profile, and if you've never told Google what you're doing, or you don't update it and be engaged with it which helps them give a better user experience, you won't be in the map pack, but you want to be, so that's what your Google Business Profile is, you will see an 80%, they say between 50% and 80% of the people that search, click on the map, that number comes from Google. - I think you've given me my top of the hour assignment, do you market locally, do you market domestically or nationally rather, what's your sort of overall audience, or customer base? - I market nationwide, so I don't really focus on locally, I offer services to attorneys in the U.S. - Could I ask you about your podcast and guesting experience, how has that been? - It's been really interesting, I've been focusing a lot on early on the marketing side of it, and digital marketing to get the book out to that, and then finally slowly being able to get on more lawyer-oriented podcasts to get the information out there, it's been really good, the contacts you make, the network you're building, it's interesting, I met some fabulous people, and you get referrals, it is a way of building your business, I definitely recommend it, if you're not going to do your own podcast, at least make a point of podcast guesting, it's a way to get your message out there and get known. - That's a great point, I don't think perhaps we talk about that enough, and maybe your experience would be instructive in terms of dipping your toe in the lake, do some guests, put yourself out there, certainly prepare, but see what the experience is like, would you suggest a lawyer or businessman try that? - Absolutely, I signed up for Pod Match, which helped really well for me, as far as giving me the opportunity or the place to get connected, but there's other options, and I'm sure your network works great for connecting people, but yeah, get out there and start doing some guest appearances, it's not overly stressful, it's two people having a conversation, yeah, other people may listen to it later, and we hope they do, but you don't have to overthink it, and I think that's what some people do. - Let's just go ahead and shout out to Pod Match and Alex for bringing together a fabulous platform, because that's how we met on Pod Match, and I saw Alex at a conference last week and told he and his wife Alicia who jointly run that business, and I'm gonna start signing up for a guesting now, I'm so impressed by the other part of it, is there, I often am asked, how do you start a podcast? And my answer is always the same, you get off your duff and start it. In terms of law firms, is it that simple or are there some first steps that law firms should take that you would advise them on, whether you're working with them or they're trying to do it on their own? - I think you have to realize that it's not that complicated. You don't have to have the big fancy microphone, you don't have to have the big fancy headphones and a fancy camera. You've got a camera in your computer, that's sufficient to start with, you've got Zoom, and have a good set of headphones with a nice microphone. It doesn't have to be that much, I use Buzzsprout to distribute mine everywhere, they also have co-host AI, I don't know if you've played with that, it will actually listen to your entire podcast and give you the summary, your chapters and all of that. Then you go in and you rewrite it, obviously add the links to it, that sort of thing, and then publish it or schedule it. And it's less than 20 bucks a month. I use a squad cast to do, you use Restream, I mean all in, you're less than what, less than 100 bucks a month, less than 50 bucks a month. And you get three, less than 50 and you get three hours of time. Most of my podcasts are 25 to 30 minutes. So you've got, that's easily six podcasts a month, I do once a week. So it's, if you keep thinking, if you keep looking at these, you know, the podcasts set up on Amazon or whatever and you're going, Oh my God, all of that stuff, I got it. No, you don't. No, you don't. I love it. Marilyn, unfortunately we're near the end of our time for this episode, but before we leave, I wanted to ask you, if our listeners wanted to connect with you or get any more information on you, your company or your services, what might be the best place or places for them to go? The best place to find me is at lawmarketingzone.com. And if you're interested in having a look at my book, is it maximize your G B P dot com? And then I'm always on LinkedIn. Marilyn, I wanted to thank you again for coming on my podcast. I was able to come on your podcast and it's been great fun talking with you and I hope we can continue this conversation. This is Tom Fox again. As I mentioned, Ethico is the sponsor of the compliance podcast network this month. And they've got a great new resource, a manager's toolkit. It allows you to help managers understand their role in a speak up culture and more importantly, and listen up culture. Check out the Ethico manager's toolkit linked to in the show notes for this podcast. This is Tom Fox again. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fox on podcasting. If you've enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll subscribe, rate and review wherever great podcasts are listened to. Fox on podcasting is a production of the compliance podcast network. If you've got a podcast, I'd love to talk to you about your experiences in podcasting for this podcast, Fox on podcasting. Or if you're interested in finding out more about podcasting, give me a shout at tfox@tfoxlaw.com. Thanks so much for listening. We look forward to visiting with you again. Bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]
Tom and Marilyn discuss the unique advantages of using audio formats to establish thought leadership in the legal field. We explore why audio can be a more potent tool than written or video content in building trust and connection with the audience. We also touch on strategies for lawyers to effectively market their expertise and solve clients' problems, whether they are solo practitioners or part of large international firms.
Key Highlights:
Introduction to Thought Leadership
The Power of Audio Format
Building Trust Through Voice
Marketing Legal Skills
Applicability Across Legal Practices
Resources:
Marilyn Jenkins on LinkedIn
Law Marketing Zone
The Google Business Profile Training Guide
The Leadership in Law Podcast
Tom
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For more information on the Ethico Toolkit for Middle Managers, available at no charge, by click here.
