"Hi, this is Matt. Just before we start the show, I want to tell you about a free white paper that I've just published on AI and talent acquisition. We all know that AI is going to dramatically change recruiting. But what will that really look like? For example, imagine a future where AI can predict your company's future talent needs, build dynamic external and internal talent pools, craft, personalized candidate experiences, and intelligently automate recruitment marketing. The new white paper, Ten Ways AI Will Transform Talent Acquisition, doesn't claim to have all the answers, but it does explore the most likely scenarios on how AI will impact recruiting. So, get a head start on planning and influencing the future of your talent acquisition strategy. You can download your copy of the white paper at matalder.me/transform. That's matalder.me/transform. "There's been more of scientific discovery, more of technical advancement and material progress in your lifetime than mine, and all the ages of history." Hi there. Welcome to episode 641 of Recruiting Future with me, Matt Alder. If you've listened to the last few episodes of the podcast, you'll know that TA Transformation is currently a big theme on the show. We've focused a lot on the future. But what about the practicalities of the present? Today's talent acquisition leaders face an ever-growing list of priorities on top of their already demanding roles, from enhancing candidate experience to integrating AI and from improving diversity metrics to establishing more agile operating models. The pressures are immense. So, what progress are TA teams making? And how do they benchmark against each other? My guess this week is Rachel Dalboth, director of the TA Center of Excellence at the Talent Labs. Based on the talent labs research, Rachel offers insights into how TA teams are dealing with the current challenges. She also shares her thoughts on skills for future TA teams and the vital importance of investing in development. Hi Rachel and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. Lovely to be here. Thank you for having me. An absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Please, could you introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do? Yeah, absolutely. So, hi everybody. I'm Rachel Dalboth. I am the director for our TA Center of Excellence at the Talent Labs. I've been in the TA space, got in various guises for the past 25 plus years. So, I've been a recruiter, a recruitment leader and also a speaker. And I now head up the team that curates and creates all of our expert content for talent acquisition at the Talent Labs. So, that's right across research, resources, training and consultancy. Yeah, just tell us a little bit more about the Talent Labs for people who might not be familiar with, you know, what it is and what you do. Of course, of course. So, the Talent Labs is a training consultancy and membership organisation. And actually, Matt, some of your listeners might remember us as the firm previously. We actually started as a LinkedIn group back in 2007. We grew to become the leading membership organisation for talent acquisition and then recently back in June, rebranded, diversified our services just to really help join the dots between talent acquisition, but also talent management and talent development. So, I guess we provide a nice safe space for talent professionals to learn, grow, experiment and as I say, we do that for all talent professionals globally. So, we provide resources, events, training, consultancy, research and also membership. So, a little bit about us. Hopefully, people recognise us as our new name, the Talent Labs now. Fantastic stuff. And obviously, as you say there, you do a lot of research. You talk to a huge amount of people working at the coalfacing in talent acquisition. What are you seeing in the market at the moment? What are the main challenges and issues that TA teams are facing? Gosh, I mean, there's a few things I would probably call out. I guess the first thing is probably about just the growing list of priorities on top of the day job, which we know is already taking them huge numbers of hours each day. Actually, we did some recent research partnered with Poetry and that showed something like five hundred and eleven minutes or nearly eight and a half hours a day worth of just BAU activities. So, when you think about, as you say, the research that we do and some of the priorities that are on top of some of that BAU, it's quite incredible to think what people are managing. Now, we've got our annual research out at the moment, but certainly when we look at the last report, we know that those sort of 2024 challenges, priorities are around some really key areas. Canada Experience, we're seeing 53% of people calling that out as being a really top number one priority for people. So, really thinking about how they differentiate that Canada experience. Good to see that Ed and I is still there second on the list of priorities, but that's not a small thing for people to think about in terms of how they're reporting, measuring some of the initiatives that they're putting in place around that. EVP and EB, we've seen it in the top three for a long time. It is down slightly from last year, but again, still in that top three. And we're really seeing lots of people predicting that employer branding and investments and initiatives are actually going to increase this year. And then, of course, we've started to see the rise of a couple of other ones. So, data and metrics, we've seen that really come up in terms of the list of priorities. Quite interesting, because we're seeing numbers of people, something like 26% are not recording, even costs per higher, an 8% not measuring time to hire. And yet, we've seen a real growth in the focus on data and metrics, rightly so. And then AI, unsurprisingly, Matt, you all know that that's really coming up the ranks. So, we're really starting to see an interest and a focus on that. And yet, only 22% are actually using it according to AI, AI reports. So, people waiting to see what's going to happen, what's everyone else doing, what's the legislation going to do? So, I think that's the first thing I'd call out is just the number of things in that even top five that people are trying to focus on grapple with on top of a very, very busy day job. And in terms of how TA is structured, what are the kind of the main operating models that you're seeing? Is there a sort of a trend in a specific direction in terms of the way that teams might be being restructured? Yeah, there is. So, unlike a few years ago, when we saw a lot of outsourcing, and it sort of felt like the hokey-cokey for insourcing and outsourcing at one point, didn't it? There's been a big move back to in-house roles. So, actually, when we did some research on this, only 2% of respondents had a partial full RPO model. But what we have seen is a real rise in more of an agile RPO, sort of on-demand service type model. We're seeing a lot of centralized models still, so sort of 67% of respondents are still operating that kind of model. But a lot of a lot of those are in smaller organizations. Big proportion of those are hiring less than 500 vacancies per year, or managing less than 10 rex per recruiter. So, we see that large proportion of those are in smaller organizations. And a lot of those who are operating those centralized models, big proportion of those tend to be functionally aligned in that type of model. Now, we are seeing a lot of popularity in that. And we're seeing that a lot of people are saying that they're pretty effective models. 79% of the people that we surveyed saw them as highly effective having those centralized models. But what's really, I guess, likely concerning is that only 35% of our respondents actually rated any of their models as highly effective in the first place. So, this gives you some idea, I guess, as to why actually just less than half of those are actually reviewing those models at the moment. And a lot of those have had their model in place for two to five years already. So, we're starting to see some reviews happening. Certainly, we're getting a lot more clients coming to us, talking about how we can help them review those. And we're seeing an emergence of more of the hybrid models as well. Actually, 15% of our respondents already have this type of model. So, you know, what I think we're seeing is TA leaders really sort of attempting to strike a balance between leveraging stuff for global scale and repeatable tasks, but also really understanding and appreciating the value of local market knowledge, you know, really trying to address the challenges of finding great local talent. So, yes, we are seeing some changes there and we are seeing people certainly reviewing those models more and more. You mentioned how busy TA is that there's a lot of stuff going on. There does feel, to some extent, there's also a kind of a lack of control about all of these, you know, all of these things and these competing priorities. What is it, do you think, that holds TA back from being seen as a strategic function that sets those priorities and really kind of drives things forward towards a vision of the future? Yeah, I think there's probably a couple of things. I think the first one is around, look, there's a bit of a historical piece here, which I hate the fact that it's still a play, but I think it is, in some cases, which is around that kind of historical, incorrect, I hasten to add, perception about TA being more of a back office or administrative function and we all know that's absolutely not true. I think the second thing is just about that sheer workload that I mentioned before, but I think there's another piece about how we really proactively demonstrate that we can connect the dots across the talent piece. And I guess that really plays into why we have become the talent labs and why we've diversified what we do, because, you know, we are seeing a real rise in the acknowledgement that there needs to be better connectivity between all of the different talent functions that we have. You know, we're seeing a raise in internal mobility this year. So, you know, we're starting to see internal and external hiring ratios really changed. It went from 60, 40 to 70, 30 in the last 12 months. I suspect we'll see a change again on the latest annual survey. So, you know, it's how we really align what we do and connect with what we do to the broader organizational strategy and goals. And that becomes much easier if what we do in talent acquisition connects to that broader people agenda. What do you think the unique insights or value that TA brings to that kind of bigger talent picture? I think we bring huge value and insights. I mean, who knows the market and the talent and what they want better than talent acquisition, right? We have all of that really available to us. We're in that market all of the time, but actually it's about taking a bit of a step change. So, we need to really demonstrate that value and that expertise and that insight and really start to use that to influence outcomes for the business. And dare I say it, that might be resulting in something not becoming a piece of recruitment that sits with the talent acquisition team. And that's okay. So, I think, you know, number one talent acquisition should be sat in that business really understanding the strategy of the functions that they support, the teams that they support. And we do that all day, every day, hopefully. So, we know what capabilities are really needed to make those strategies achievable. The key thing, I think, Matt, is about us not waiting for that all-important requisition that's been approved for a job called X that has grade called Y in this specific location to come through and determine what we do. Actually, if we can get ahead of the game and we can start to influence some of those outcomes, get into the conversations about talent much earlier, so we know what's going on in our organization, then we can actually have a real opportunity to influence that location strategy, that reward strategy, what that role looks like, what it's called, and really start to influence some of those things. Because we have that intel, we have that knowledge and we have those capabilities. It's about having the conversations earlier rather than waiting for them to become a buttoned up, you know, a very specific requisition that we then action. We'll get back to the show in just a moment, but I wanted to take a minute or so to talk about something that I know is critical for you all right now. Talent acquisition is going through an unprecedented transformation, and many of you are likely in the middle of planning your strategies as we move through 2024 towards 2025. We all know that operating models, change management, and aligning TA with corporate objectives are essential parts of any transformation strategy. But with the market and AI technologies in particular evolving so rapidly, there's a real risk that your strategy could quickly become outdated. That's where strategic foresight comes in. It's a proven methodology that helps you build credible feature scenarios, create agile strategies, and most importantly, have a proactive influence on what the future of talent acquisition looks like, both within your organization and across the industry. I know you're busy, so I've created a concise online course that breaks down strategic foresight into easy-to-learn tools specifically designed for TA transformation. It's quick to implement and will keep you ahead of the curve. You can learn more by visiting matalda.me/course, that's matalda.me/course. There's really never been a better time to shape the future of talent acquisition, so don't miss this opportunity to make a lasting impact. You mentioned some of the issues with who's measuring what. How's measurement and metrics evolving in TA? What are the really innovative organizations doing? Well, I think they are evolving, and I'll be honest with you, I'm glad to see that they are. It's been a bit of a bugbear of mine for a while, if I'm being honest. I think it's happening slower than we would like to see, but what we are starting to identify is that where we would historically see a lot of that kind of cost for higher time to higher metric. Those are still there. We've seen some of those growing, but what we are seeing come up the ranks more and more is this idea about quality. I think that's really important, because if we want to get more investment into our function, if we want to demonstrate that value that you and I were just speaking about, then actually how we measure ourselves is a really important part of that piece. When you think about some of the metrics that we use, there's a bit of attention, isn't there? Because if you look at cost per higher, time to higher, that's about getting people in quickly and cheaply. Now, that might be really relevant in some cases, but actually what our real core role is, is about getting the right talent at the right time, and doing that so that that talent stays with us and performs. I think quality of higher alongside some of the other metrics is tricky, but it's a really important one for us to start using. I think the difficulty and the reason that we haven't seen that happen quite so quickly is because it's quite a difficult one to measure. There's lots of ways of potentially measuring quality of higher. We've got people talking about it in retention terms, people passing their probation period, how quickly someone becomes productive, even higher in managers rating that new starter's performance, but there are lots of different combinations of some of those things, and actually we should be looking at the candidate's view of fit too. I've had some really interesting chats about that with people recently. I think we are seeing it change. I'm pleased about that. I don't think it's going to happen overnight because it is not necessarily easy, and we have a bit of education back to the business to explain why those quality metrics are important alongside of nothing else. What I'd love to see is actually people looking at potentially different metrics for different roles, because I'm not sure that there should be a one-size-fits-all. No, I completely agree. You mentioned AI right at the start. You mentioned that there's potentially some reluctance or hesitance to dive in and use it at the moment. What do you think the potential impact is from AI and automation on TA roles moving forward? I think we all know it's going to be huge, and I think that's probably where some of the nervous comes into. I don't think anybody's going to sit there and say that's not going to be part of our world, because it is. We can see that the OBR recently predicted that AI technology could support raising productivity by about half a percent point by 28-29. We know that the impact around the workforce itself is going to be massive, particularly in the tech sector. There's also a huge opportunity for automation in TA. Think back to that 511 minutes that people are spending doing BAU work in a talent acquisition role. There's huge opportunity to support the work that we do. Think about interview scheduling, think about outreach messages, etc. But yes, we are seeing this nervousness, because it is a big thing. Getting it right is important. We know there's going to be some legislative changes. I think what we're seeing is a little bit of a peering over the fence, but waiting to see what the right thing to do is and what other people are doing. Of course, it's not just about how recruiters are going to use it. It's also about how candidates use it. We're already getting lots of questions here about should candidates be allowed to use AI? I think what we're starting to see is that actually, this is going to be something that's going to become a measurable skill potentially. How people even use AI to apply for a role might be something that's part of the assessment process quite quickly. It's a really interesting one, because it doesn't just affect our role. It affects all of the roles that we recruit as well. I think how we reskill ourselves and how we reskill that workforce to manage and work with AI is going to be particularly interesting. We've got the very difficult situation where people are reluctant to dive in, want to see what's going to happen, but actually things are moving so quickly, that's not the best strategy in terms of moving forward. The conundrum there is obviously, how can tail leaders make sure that they've got the right skills in their teams for the future that we're going into, because that might happen very quickly. Obviously, that's something they need to plan for right now. Yes, it is. I'll be honest with you. I think the first thing is doing exactly what you described in the first place, which is actually investing in development first and foremost. I was quite shocked to see that actually, from our respondents to some research that we did around organisations related to tail acquisition, only 10% of a TA budget in some cases is actually being spent on development for TA folk, which is tiny. Actually, only 18% of those responding organisations actually have some clear career paths for those recruiters, which is, it's a difficult one to square. I do in part understand why that figure might be lower than we would like to say. We've had the emergence of very specific roles, haven't we around sources, for example, or those perhaps that are doing more of the business partnering type roles. But having some very clear thought about career paths, what that looks like for your recruiting teams, having that budget to actually allocate to development, I think it's really important. We're seeing a lot of people coming to us talking about skills, matrices. I think that's an important piece of work to do. I think the biggest part of development is really going to be about how we skill people up to deliver and experience over a process. Now, we've been talking about that for years, but AI is really accelerating that because if you think about the roles that AI is going to be able to manage for us, I don't think that suddenly takes away the role of a recruiter at all. I know there's a lot of fear about that. I think what it means is that our role is going to change to become much more human again. Those that are perhaps in it for the love of a process, perhaps that's going to be a little bit of more of a decision about whether they want to stay in talent acquisition, because I think that role is going to become much more about managing AI and managing an experience in a very human, personalized way, because that's the bit that AI can't do, and that's the bit where we can add some real value. That and being quite savvy with your data, being able to bring that into play as I talked about earlier in a really influential way. There are some specific skills we can see that are going to be needed in TA. The biggest partner is for those teams to make sure that investment is made into that development. Pulling this all together, we're just into September now, and thoughts are obviously turning to next year to 2025. What do you think the short-term future looks like for TA? What are people likely to be focusing on as we move into and move through 2025? There's certainly some of those things we've already spoken about. Automation, as I say, that's not going to go anywhere, is it? I think we can hide from it, but it's not going away. Really thinking about and planning for what is that going to mean in 2025? What is it going to do for the roles that we recruit for? What is it going to mean for the roles that we ourselves do? That skills development piece in both our own roles and for the broader organisation, which then comes to some of that skills development piece. I think there's also a real soft skills development focus that's needed. Josh Burson and the likes of IBM have talked before about soft skills being power skills, whether or not you like the title. It's because actually they're the things that we can harness to really add value to what we do in delivering experiences, whether it's to candidates or more broadly to employees as a talent function. I think there's a lot around soft skills development that's needed. We're seeing that from our clients in Swaves. That connects with bringing that talent function closer together, less siloed organisations where really those talent acquisition development and management teams are working far, far closer together. Thinking about things like workforce planning, thinking about things like internal mobility and reskilling how we do skills first hiring. We can't do that in isolation as talent acquisition. We have to work with our learning and development colleagues to really make that work seamlessly. Again, connecting those dots a lot more I think is going to be an absolute focus for 2025. Rachel, thank you very much for talking to me. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. My thanks to Rachel. You can follow this podcast on Apple Podcasts on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can search all the past episodes at recruitingfuture.com. On that site, you can also subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Recruiting Future Feast and get the inside track about everything that's coming up on the show. Thanks very much for listening. I'll be back next time and I hope you'll join me. This is my show. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]
