Well, if you know how much I love wine, you know, how excited I am to talk to Damien from my favorite. Oh, my God, this is my favorite new rosé. Chateau August grand rosé. Hi, Damien. Hi, Stephanie. I thought I was a Chardonnay girl. You have won me over entirely. And I read a tweet. Janine said the good news is I my six bottles of Chateau August rosé arrived yesterday. The bad news is I may drink them all today. Can you get more offer codes, maybe the other varietals? I think I may go through a lot of them by November. You make a lot of great wines. You know, I'm excited to get into the reds as we get into fall. But I mean, this rosé is just a perfect summer wine, isn't it? Sure, no, it's a perfect summer wine. It's made with Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot grapes. So it's not usual for rosé because it's normally more for red grapes, for red wines. And no, that's why we tried to change the techniques a few years ago, because we just want you to make something different. We get the right fruit. Yeah. Right color and right taste. One of the things I love is that you play music to the vines twice a day. This is a scientific process. Tell us about that. We work with with genetics, with the company who made the box for the music on the vineyards. It's more frequencies and vibrations. So and we played two times per day when when the sun rises. Wow. Yeah. And it adds the vines to have a better immunity. So it's good for the health of the vines. I cannot recommend this grand rosé highly enough. Again, my Sirius XM listeners get over 50% off go to vs.wine six bottles for 98 bucks and free delivery. Best wine by varietal gold medal best in show by quality. That's six bottles for 98 bucks and free delivery. Just use the promo code Stephanie 50% off with the promo code Stephanie vs.wine the promo code is Stephanie. Okay, it's time to commit. 2024 is the year for prioritizing yourself. Begin your new smile journey with bite and you could start seeing results in just two to three weeks. Just order your at home impression kit today for only 1495 at bite.com. Bite clear aligners are doctor directed and delivered to your door. Treatment costs thousands less than braces. Plus they offer financing options, accept eligible insurance and you can pay with your HSA FSA. Get 80% off your impression kit when you use code Wondery at bite.com. That's BYTE.com. Start your confidence journey today with bite. This is the John Fuelsang podcast. This is serious XM progress and I'm John Fuelsang. Good evening. So good to have you with us here on channel 127. Welcome to tell me everything the little show that brings good trouble to the right wing bubble. We're so glad to welcome your calls at 866-997-4748. We are of course celebrating the 25 year anniversary of Garth Brooks introducing his alter ego of Chris Gaines at a Nashville press conference. Yes, that was this day in 1999. We're going to celebrate all night by playing your favorite Chris Gaines live tracks, rare B sides and of course bootlegs and a few DJ remixes as well. It's going to be Chris Gaines for three hours straight. Now that I've driven away the cool people, let's talk about the politics of America because it's been a bit insane. We have to take a moment to make sense of everything. Unfortunately, we have some very wise people tonight. We have wise people and good people at the same time as our guests. Matthew Gertz of Media Matters is going to be here to talk about the very interesting couple of days Republicans are going through and why the MAGA movement just quite can't bring themselves to quit toxic liabilities like Laura Loomer and Tucker Carlson and Russian Stooge, well-paid Stooge, Benny Johnson. We're to be joined by Simon Moyersmith and Julie Frenchlla for our Native Voices segment and hour number two. I'm so glad to have them back. And the great Max Burns returns an hour number three for some more mop up on the week's politics. You may have already heard the news. Well, also, oh, the big more news. We're going to be taking the sexy liberal tour back on the road. We just had a great show in Portland last weekend. We'll be playing in Durham, North Carolina next weekend on Saturday, the 21st. And then we're playing with special guest Alison Gill of Mueller, she wrote in Phoenix, Arizona on the the what is it? The 28th of this month, we're going to be playing Kansas City, Missouri for the first time on October 12th and the big election Eve show, Los Angeles, November 2nd, I believe it's a Saturday. There's still some seats left. We're playing the Orpheum for the first time. Our special guests that we're allowed to announce so far are Mark Hamill and Martin Sheen. Did you know that, Chris? We've got the last Jedi and the president joining us on stage for the same show. It's going to be so much righteous. Too shabby. Not too shabby. We're going to have some Jedi West Wing crossover. And those are just the ones we're allowed to talk about. Two of the biggest actors of 1977. I would agree. Yes, we can talk about the 70s, 80s all the time, but I like to think as activists, they're doing some of their best work right now. I'm a big fan of famous people who use something as pointless as fame to fight for causes greater than themselves. And I really admire what Mark does and what Sheen does. And maybe I'll finally get Sheen to agree to be on the show this time. He said he would last time. Well, we'll see. Also, our show is produced by the most dangerous production squad all of radio. The great Chris Hausselt, whose dulcet tones you just heard and the mighty Thea Harper. If you are lucky enough to call our show at 866-997-4748 and talk to Miss Harper, please keep it brief, keep it professional. She doesn't need to hear your one man show. And I do mean one man show. There are some of you gentlemen might keep you keep your mitts off my producer. Yes, Chris. Nothing. It's just it's Jesse tonight. Jesse is here tonight. Oh my God. Thank God. Well, then in that case, Thea Harper is the most absent production squad in radio. And God bless the effort finally getting a night off. Jesse Carson is call screening tonight. We are very grateful. Jesse actually knows the power of Thea. He helped. He worked with her last week when Chris and I were fucking off somewhere. We are honored to have him here. And we're really we're really looking forward to dragging a man of his skill down to our level. But he still doesn't want any. He still doesn't want to hear anybody's shit. So yeah. And then listen, don't hit on Jesse either, gentlemen, is what I'm trying to say. If you call him, you hear an attractive man's voice. Don't hit on Jesse either. I did imagine Jesse's Thea and back off. Make your point and your question or your joke or your threat. And then go harass Thea on social media. Jesse Carson, thank you so much for being with us tonight. We apologize in advance for everything you're about to be subjected to. Okay, are we ready? Let's do a show. There's a lot to get to Donald Trump at a late afternoon truth. Social Post broke the hearts of America's shot in Freud addicts and declared there will not be a second debate between himself and Kamala Harris, which is to say a third debate this year. Donald Trump has debated women for President four times. He has lost all four. Imagine barking about eating cats and dogs. And you decide that's your last appearance. Let's take a moment of silence, my homies for Donald Trump's presidential debating career. We have seen him do it for the last time. And I'm a bit misty to be honest because, you know, I'm not a cynic about all this, folks. I mean, it's amazing watching Donald Trump implode so dramatically. We're going to talk about Laura Loomer, but I just folks, as a comedian, I owe a lot to this man. Can I just tell you, I owe a lot to Donald Trump, that man and his campaign put my child through private preschool in Manhattan. And I will always be grateful to his awfulness for being so lucrative for a person like me. I just I could never give him back what what what he's given me. And and you know, my kid went through private preschool in Manhattan, thanks to this guy. And now look how far we've come. Next year, my child's going to start eighth grade. And next year, Donald Trump's going to start three separate criminal trials. It's just beautiful. Oh, and a judge in Trump's 2020 election interference case in Georgia, the Rico case, tossed a couple of charges related to people who filed false documents, but kept a larger indictment, the core of the Rico case intact. Thousands remain without power across Louisiana, as Francine now downgraded to a tropical storm exits to the north and east. There's new research warning the large doses of the widely prescribed ADHD medication at all can raise the patient's risk of psychosis. That would explain why I'm screaming at people at the stop, I guess. There have been bomb threats reported at multiple buildings in Springfield, Ohio, because this nonsense about eating pets, this racist childhood smear that should have destroyed the Donald Trump candidacy the first time it rolled out of JD Vance's mediocre racist pudgy mouth. It hasn't destroyed them. The very fact that these unhinged racist stooges, these Christ rejecting constitution rejecting petulant fat little fucks are neck and neck with the prosecutor that won the other night should be embarrassing to all Americans with an IQ over room temperature, embarrassing to all Americans who can spell the word your correctly. Oh, and by the way, if your city's police commissioner gets his cell phone confiscated by the feds and then has to resign the next day, that's that's a bad thing, right? I'm asking for New York City. Before we get anywhere else, let's talk about some some good news beyond the fact that the FBI is, well, look, if the FBI does take down New York City Mayor Eric Adams administration and appointees, I mean, amidst this nightclub probe, the police commissioner just had to resign. Maybe just maybe the FBI can get more than 27% of New Yorkers to show up in both of the damn mayor next time. Okay, abortions are now legal in North Dakota after the state Supreme Court ruled that their near total abortion ban was unconstitutionally vague. This is a very encouraging story and everybody should lean in because precedent is being set here. The judge struck down the state's abortion ban. He says women have a right to the procedure until viability. Again, men deciding, but a state district judge Bruce Romoneck said the law banning abortions violated the state Constitution because it was too vague. This was a request from the state to dismiss a lawsuit filed against the ban two years ago by what back then was the only abortion clinic left in North Dakota is Red River Women's Clinic, and they sued the state to stop this ban. Of course, they lost. They had to move across the border to Minnesota, and there are now no abortion clinics in the state. And the state even said the trial's not going to make a difference. We shouldn't even have a trial. Judge Romoneck had canceled the trial set for August, and then he cited how the North Dakota Constitution guarantees inalienable rights, including life and liberty. And in his 24 page order on the case, this male judge said that the abortion statutes infringed quote on a woman's fundamental right to procreate of autonomy and are not narrowly tailored to promote women's health or to protect unborn human life. And he said the law is currently drafted takes away a woman's liberty and her right to pursue and obtain safety and happiness. I'm going to say that last part again. The law is currently drafted takes away a woman's liberty and her right to pursue and obtain safety and happiness. Because please remember, pregnancy and childbirth are more dangerous and kill more women than abortion. So forcing a woman to be pregnant against her will or to give birth against her will denies her liberty and denies her right to pursue and obtain safety and happiness. I'm not saying abortion's a nice thing. I'm saying men, have no goddamn right, telling women what they can't do. And even though there's no abortion clinics left in North Dakota, it's still going to help think about patients in a medical emergencies. We've heard all these stories. You know, the North Dakota ban allowed abortions in some emergencies, but the wording was so sweeping that doctors have been terrified, like so many doctors that they couldn't help any patients unless they are on the verge of death. Now they're not going to make women going to sepsis anymore and give birth to a dying fetus. So thank you. Thank you, Judge Ramanek. And now let me get to the main point I want to make tonight. Thank you, Laura Loomer. You know, I never thought Laura Loomer would be the truth fairy coming down to earth to make people see what is real and what is not. But gosh, don't it? Sometimes God has the most unlikely messengers, doesn't he? Now, everyone's excited about Donald Trump saying there'll be no third debate because he's pathetic and he's terrified to debate a woman who kicked his ass on TV again. And by the way, Carin John Pierre today in the White House Press Room gave reporters the lowdown on what President Biden thought of the trouncing of Trump by Vice President Harris. Can you tell us how the president bought the debate lens or if he watched it had to serve the details of the debate? Yeah. So as you know, he was in New York ahead of September 11. So he watched it at the hotel in New York. And I'm going to be careful. I'm going to give you an answer, but I'm going to be careful because it is a 2024 campaign. So just have to say that at top. But what the president saw directly for himself is a he saw a commanding optimistic performance from the leader who he's been working with for the past three and a half year side by side. And he heard a powerful case for shared values that they have and shared policy goals that they have standing up for our rights against dangerous abortion and IVF bans tax cuts and lower costs for families to keep us on the strong economic growth trajectory. Okay. So here's the deal. It's about to get interesting because the media is finally asking, I think they're starting to ask about Laura Loomer and why Donald Trump is seeking counsel from this woman. You might know her. She's a far right agitator. She's a capering loon, I believe some would say she's an Infowars maniac who spews racist nonsense and she harasses victims of school shootings and very public bigot and racist and Donald Trump has decided to amplify her. He's seeking counsel for Miss Loomer. She ran for Congress one time. She changed herself to the offices of Twitter once because they blocked her for her nonsense because they're a private company and they can throw you out of their club if you break the rules. And we're seeing a lot of articles times of London as a big piece about how Trump's allies are horrified. He's making unforced errors because he's listening to divisive lunatics like Laura Loomer, online people, people who know nothing about functioning in public much less winning a national election. And the fact that Donald Trump's inner circle now includes this complete racist crackpot. I'm sorry, lying racist crackpot is a much bigger story than is being made up so far. So according to the Times of London, Donald Trump, who's 78, just pointing that out, wanted to give her an official role in his campaign last year. But all of his key advisors said no should be a liability. Well, he's not listening to them anymore. Maybe you've noticed. Maybe you also noticed the volume of press coverage about Barack Obama and Reverend Jeremiah, right? Well, let's see if the media makes as much noise about Donald Trump's partnership with Laura Loomer. This is a woman who last year said 9/11 was an inside job. And yesterday, Donald Trump brought her on his private plane as his guest to the 9/11 commemoration in New York City. He brought a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, Truther, to the 9/11 ceremony, just to wag his dick at cops, even more than he already does. So here the reporters in the in the press briefing room today wanted to know what does the White House make of Laura Loomer. She's in the center of the Trump campaign, tweeting really racist, sexist, vile about Kamala Harris. Here's the exchange. There is a woman named Laura Loomer, who recently tweeted that if the vice president wins the election, the White House will smell like curry and White House speeches will be facilitated via call center, among other things. She recently traveled with the former president. And I wonder if President Biden has read these remarks and his response. Let me tell you our response from here. It is repugnant, these types of comments. It is un-American to say these types of things, exactly the kind of hateful and divisive rhetoric that we should denounce and we should not be part of the fabric of this country. It doesn't matter what your political views are. You should stand and condemn and condemn these types of just repugnant, repugnant words. Now, uh, Korean Jump here has to say that. What I can say is, thank God for Laura Loomer. It's beautiful. Every awful vile thing she's doing plays a greater role in a moral act. This evil plastic surgery addict truth fairy is the one who has been pushing this pet eating story for days and days on her social media. And then she starts hanging out with Trump all the time and suddenly Trump's using it in the debate. And then it's a disaster. And he still uses it in the debate that after the debate, the next day, it's coming from her. She's 31. She describes herself as an investigative journalist. She's not. She's spreading the theory that Kamala Harris isn't really black, spreading the racist theory about the Haitians. And by the way, she doesn't really like how black women talk. Give a listen to this online appearance. She's not a fan of African American women who are successful and have jobs says and it's just very piercing, very irritating sound. They all have they all have the same voice. I'm talking about the same voice. Latisha James and Fannie Willis, like all of the like meritless DEI, Shanique was talked the same way. It's very obnoxious the way that they talk like the way they talk and their little DEI, Shanique voices and it's just very piercing, very restless DEI, Shaniquo voices. Okay, folks, God bless her. Let let your relatives defend Trump as not being racist more. Okay. And by the way, I'm not even trying to be unfair to Laura Loomer. Yes, she's a racist, but she also really doesn't like Marjorie Taylor green. Give a listen to this. You know, she just, she's a bitch, right? She just really is a bitch. And the fact of the matter is, like you said, she says that she's spreading all of this truth. But yeah, you're right. She's just spreading her legs. And the reality is that she talks about she says that I'm going to hold the idea, right? She said Marjorie Taylor green is just spreading her legs. This is who Donald Trump is dumped March for. This is the woman who tweeted as you heard in the clip. She said this week, if Kamala Harris wins, the White House will smell like curry. And White House speeches will be facilitated through a call center. And the American people will only be able to convey their feedback to a customer satisfaction survey at the end of the call that nobody will understand. Let's give some credit. Finally, they're not just being racist against Kamala Harris for being black. They're being racist against her for being Indian as well. And can you appreciate that she sees both sides? Can you appreciate that she's manages to hate Islam and Hindus at the same time? I'm not even going to repeat the comments she said about Kamala Harris, but it began with a brain dead bimbo who and then said stuff I'm not even going to repeat. She's mentally unstable. She's a liar. She's toxic and poisonous. That's not me saying that. That's Marjorie Taylor green saying that. And she's making the Republican party's problem more toxic. She's the reason that Donald Trump is spinning out of control. This capering loon has his ear and the same Republicans he pays to say yes to everything. Don't. She's all about pro white nationalism. She's claimed there's a genocide of native white populations. I mean, she's accused so many rich Jews of trying to destroy America. She accused the Biden administration of trying to assassinate Trump. This is his new girlfriend. She just came out and said Lindsey Graham needs to come out of the closet. How came Jeffrey's called Trump out for bringing her to this 9/11 memorial. Marjorie Taylor Green has decided she's far too racist and went after her today. This is the situation. This is how poor Donald Trump's judgment is and he's conveying the poorness of his judgment to every Republican establishment figure, every Republican donor and every Republican who watches more than right wing news. He was humiliated down in the air. Everyone was appalled. And today in Tucson, if we can play this clip really quick, he doesn't care that he was humiliated. In fact, checked he doubled down and illegal Haitians. And he came in illegal Haitian migrants taking over a beautiful place. It was so beautiful. Springfield, Ohio, I was there. I campaigned there a while ago. Springfield was so beautiful. Now it's just what a place. Can you imagine you have this small little community? All of a sudden you have 20,000 illegals in your community. Nobody knows where they come from. There's the Christian. I'm angry about young American girls being raped and sodomized and murdered by savage criminal aliens. There you go. Double down. Folks, he was shellacked for that debate. He was fact checked on the air. He's been mocked mercilessly on social media with a lot of really clever musical tributes to his racism. Legal immigrants and Springfield are hiding in their homes. They're getting bomb threats all over town. I mean, the father of one of the kids who was killed is begging him to stop. This is a lie. It's all been debunked. He knows it's been debunked. He can't stop. Please, Laura Loomer, stay in his ear. Haitian immigrants are some of the best people in this country and they haven't heard anybody's way of life. They're not illegal. They were invited there. They revitalized the economy. 20,000 of them. They were given green cards because they had to flee violence in their own damn country and they're creating business. They're lifting up the entire community. The churches are full. The factory owner says they're all there on time. They are showing us the best of America. Donald Trump is showing the worst of America and all the rest of the world sees is that half of us seem to want this. It's going to be great to show them in November for the third time in a row. The majority of American voters reject this racist nonsense. We got to take a very quick break. We'll be back in just a moment. The great Matt Gertz Media matters. This is SiriusXM Progress. Don't go away. Hey, Prime Members. Have you heard? You can listen to your favorite podcasts ad-free? Good news! With Amazon Music, you have access to the largest catalog of ad-free top podcasts included with your Prime Membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music App for free or go to amazon.com/adfreepodcast. That's Amazon.com/adfreepodcast to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. Let me quote our next guest in a brilliant piece in Medium Matters. Trump's willingness to embrace anyone willing to give him their loyalty, no matter how extreme their views, has helped make it impossible for the GOP to separate itself from even the most depraved and corrupt MAGA figures. In other words, thank you, Laura Loomer. I see a Laura Loomer public fight with Marjorie Taylor Greene. I call it porn for the angels. But Matt Gertz has nailed it in a great new piece called Why the MAGA Movement Can't Cut Loose Toxic Liabilities, like Tucker Carlson and Laura Loomer. Don't forget, it's just a week since Tucker Carlson promoted this Nazi apologist on our show to say that Churchill was the bad guy of World War II and the party doesn't seem to mind. And this corrosive vice presidential nominee is going to stand and break bread with Tucker Carlson on stage. So that's why I'm glad Matt Gertz is here. Senior fellow at Medium Matters, which he's been with since 2007, he focuses on the relationship between Fox News and the Trump administration. And you've seen or read his stuff and the Daily Beast and Huffington Post and Politico. It is a great pleasure to welcome Matt Gertz back to SiriusXM. Thanks so much for having me back. Thank you. I'm dying to talk about this new piece about all these trolls. But let's just cover the rights reaction to Tuesday night's presidential debate, because Medium Matters as always is right on top of it. You actually had a great tweet. You said Republicans should consider having Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell tell Donald Trump that after his poor debate performance, he should step down as the nominee for the sake of his party and country. The stakes are just too high instead of whining about the moderators. I mean, I can't even imagine Matt if if if Barry Goldwater went to tell Nixon it was time to go today, I don't think Nixon would leave at the ad Fox News. I think that's right. Though also it's sort of a unique situation because no one would possibly believe that Donald Trump would do anything because he thought it was in the best interest of the Republican Party or the United States. I mean, he only acts for his own personal benefit. And so the notion of him stepping down is, I mean, obviously, no one would bother to even ask him to do so. It would be just sure hysteria to try. But yeah, I mean, I think the debate was pretty clearly a disaster for Donald Trump. You could tell how bad it was by how loud the MAGA pundits got about the moderators as the night went on. By the end of the night, you had people claiming that ABC News should have its license revoked for its moderation. And by the next day, you had Donald Trump saying the exact same thing. So I mean, they can all basically tell that he was totally hopeless the entire night. But they can't really say that. They have to find scapegoats. ABC has obviously been a very big one. Laura Loomer has been another scapegoat along the way. But Donald Trump kind of puts makes the situation kind of difficult by claiming that he actually won, that he did a fantastic job. But all of the polls said that he won like 80%, 90% of the people said that he did a great job, whatever it is. Every Twitter poll, Stephen Miller posted, I won outrageously. Look at the truth, social polls. I dominated the truth, social polling. Yeah, I mean, that's basically what we're down to. And so, you know, he did so well that he has decided that he's never doing this again. There will be no additional debates. And everyone on the right, I guess now has to pretend that actually he did a great job. You know, they're all, they're all just kind of stuck. It's very funny, I have to say. Well, let me quote my, my Sirius XM coworker, the fabulous Megan Kelly, who, you know, I would never say anything against Miss Kelly, because I dream of being her secret Santa one day at the holiday party. But with all respect to my coworker, Megan, who'd write down the hall, she tweeted, OMG, more fact checking from ABC. This is the worst anchor pile on I have ever seen three against one. And being a friendly coworker, I tweeted to her, which specific Trump lie that was fact check, would you care to defend Miss Kelly? I mean, you're right, by Donald Trump claiming he won, it really undermines all the loyal foot soldiers claiming that it was rigged. I mean, it seems like ABC did him a favor if he won so demonstrably. That's also particularly amusing, simply because part of Megan Kelly's real origin story as a big star was moderating a Republican primary debate for Fox News. And going after Trump with a very I would say aggressive question about his various misogynistic comments in the past. And he responded by later accusing her of having blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her. I don't know what, which in turn, as I recall, led to her needing to drastically increase her like personal security, out of fear that various MAGA people would come after her. You had Roger Ailes basically calling Donald Trump up and begging him to stop. One of his top anchors wouldn't get attacked. But now, I guess, can I tell you the beautiful part of that, Matt? The beautiful part is they were both fired from NBC for racism. They were both fired from their NBC TV shows for the same exact reason. I'm so sorry. Go ahead, please. It's just beautiful. Oh, no, it's just a it's fascinating to see that now asking Donald Trump aggressive questions during a debate is apparently a verbote. You're not allowed to do that. According to Megan Kelly, of all people, very straight. You come right down to it. I mean, would you actually, if you go through the fact checking in the debate, it's like four things. One of them is, actually, there were no pets being eaten in Ohio. One of them is you didn't actually win the 2020 elections. Small diva. We're talking about basic stuff. Actually, violent crime is down, not up. According to the FBI, and I think the fourth one is- And then women are murdering their newborn babies, women are committing infanticide with the help of doctors and hospitals. That's the whole list. If you can't get through that level of fact checking in your debate, and you're also getting dramatically more time than Kamala Harrison, I think he had like eight more minutes total, something like that. He can't actually drive a message, and the reason he can't drive a message, as I've written, is because he is so deeply entrapped in this right-wing media bubble. He just is focused on the bizarre fixations of the weirdos who love him and have their own TV shows. That's it. And you know, at that point, you end up saying, you end up talking about how dogs and cats are being eaten in Ohio, and saying things that are not just wrong. But if someone came up to you at a bar and started talking to you about that, you would move to the other end of the bar. You would not want to be near someone who is randomly screaming about how the pets are being eaten. It's just it is totally incomprehensible. Oh, you don't want to bring to that guy, really? You don't want to hang out with that guy in the bar, really? No, I want to stay as far away as possible from that guy, because I have no idea. Well, I know what he's talking about. Unfortunately, it's my job to be deep in these bizarre right-wing media subcultures. And so I have familiarity with the bit. But if you're a normal person, like if you're just going about your daily life, and all of a sudden you're and you say, huh, I think I want to find out some information about the presidential election. I'm going to watch the debate tonight. And all of a sudden, one of the candidates is screaming about cats being eaten. That's right. That is not an appealing situation for you. And that I think it's a huge problem for Donald Trump, but it's a huge problem for the Republican Party as a whole, that all of these crazy weirdos have such a huge impact on the party's message. Yes, it's beautiful. It's like a thousand pod Aikens come back to help Democrats convince people how crazy the crazy site is. As you wrote in your piece for media matters, Trump's debate debacle put the GOP's dangerous obsession with mega media nonsense on display. Let me quote you. Trump wasted a rare opportunity to speak to a broad swath of the nation on Tuesday night instead repeatedly parroting talking points coherent only to viewers familiar with the deep lore of the Fox News cinematic universe and the right wing online fever swabs. Kamala Harris had to speak to a broad audience and for many of them, introduce herself for the first time for folks who've never watched the Democratic convention never heard her speak. Donald Trump had to try to not drive as many women away as JD Vance has already succeeded. And you're exactly right. I mean, Donald Trump completely failed to bring anybody new to his ticket. But Matthew, this has got to be because he's listening to these right wing influencers. He doesn't seem to begin listening to the people he pays to give him advice. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a huge part of it and also that he is personally addicted to getting his news from these crazy people. On the one hand, they're speaking to him directly like Laura Loomer. Laura Loomer apparently is now traveling with him to campaign events. But also, I mean, he gets his news from watching Fox News and seeing what people are truth-socialing at him and, you know, basically immersing himself in these crazy places. This was the largest audience that either candidate is likely to see for the entire election cycle, right? This was it was 57 million people tuned into this debate dramatically more than either of them got for their convention speech way more than obviously either of them will get for any other speech or television appearance or anything else. A huge opportunity to speak to people who might not be inclined to vote for you and make your case. And he just couldn't do it. He couldn't come close to doing it. He ended up babbling and ranting about all manner of nonsense, partly because Kamala Harris was incredibly effective at baiting him, but partly because he is psychologically incapable of not taking that bait under any circumstance. That's true. It's true. But let me ask you a bit about this piece about how the MAGA movement can't cut these people loose, these liabilities like Tucker Carlson and Laura Loomer and Benny Johnson. I mean, I'm old enough to remember a little bit of shame when some of these people would resign sometimes or at least go away if they were media figures. We're way beyond that. I mean, what does it say that when we found out Tucker Carlson was platforming a Nazi apologist, we all knew it wasn't going to hurt him. I mean, who's going to pay the consequence? What right-wing person is going to start boycotting a right-wing entertainer because they're too racist or too anti-Semitic or too homophobic or too anti-woman? Yeah, it was really fascinating to watch this come together because there was just this brief moment after Tucker Carlson's interview with Darryl Cooper went live and people realized that Darryl Cooper was spewing Nazi apologist stuff and Holocaust denial stuff and that Tucker Carlson was nodding along with it. There were a bunch of people on the right that I saw being very harshly critical of that. Some of them even saying, "Wow, this is so far beyond the pale that good people have a responsibility to cast Tucker Carlson off." And JD Vance, who is incredibly close to Tucker Carlson, who is appearing with him at one of his events later this month, should rise with him. Donald Trump should stop going to him for advice and so on and so forth. And I was watching this happen just going, guys, it is way too late for this. This is just like, if you wanted Tucker Carlson to be cut off, you had to do so before he got to the Holocaust denial because at this point he's just too entrenched. I wrote my first piece about how neo-Nazis love Tucker Carlson in January of 2017 and that piece included a quote from a prominent neo-Nazi who had said, "Tucker Carlson is literally our greatest ally and I don't believe he doesn't hate the Jews." This is extremely explicit and has been asking for many years. Mr. Gertz, what does it mean then that this time next year, Donald Trump will probably not be employed and Tucker Carlson still will be. Tucker Carlson will have a bigger megaphone this time next year than Donald Trump and he will not be considered damaged goods or old product. Yeah, I mean, I think, look, my basic view on Donald Trump and his future is that he will run for president until he expires. Oh, don't do this to me really. Can I see an 82-year-old Donald Trump really? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yes. He's going to give it up out of the goodness of his heart. Oh, it's beautiful. But if for some reason he decides not to and for some reason, Donald Trump Jr. doesn't try to be president, then Tucker Carlson, I think, is a very credible Republican candidate simply because of how freaking crazy he is and how much the party wants that. But the fascinating thing about, you mentioned my piece about, this started as a piece that was going to be solely about Tucker Carlson and how quickly the ground swell against him just crashed into reality and made very clear that he was going to be sticking around. But then I noticed that Laura Loomer, who had said, like, literally the most crazy racist stuff you can possibly imagine was suddenly traveling on Donald Trump's plane. And so I figured I had to throw that in. And then I noticed that the day of the debate that all our friends are a Trump who is Donald Trump's daughter-in-law and is the co-chair of the Republican National Committee because it's a family business now. That's right. She earned that. She's qualified. She she worked hard to get that job. Absolutely. But she went on Benny Johnson's show who like last literally last week was exposed just having unwittingly taken like huge sums of money from the Kremlin. And it's just none of these people are going to have any repercussions. I don't think possibly something could happen to Laura Loomer if like all of the other crazies unite against her and some have talked down to Trump into like doing something. But realistically, that has happened before. Like he tried to hire her for his campaign and everybody else revolted. And but now she's back traveling with him. So as long as you are willing to bend the knee to Donald Trump, as long as you're willing to kiss his ass and say that everything he does is fantastic and that there is definitely nothing wrong with trying to subvert an election or you know send a mob to kill Mike Pence. As long as you're willing to do that, then Donald Trump is going to be with you no matter how crazy you are. As long as that's the case, you're still going to be in good with the Republican Party because it's a personality cult at this point. Mr. Gertz, last question. Most Republicans aren't really defending these things. They're hiding from talking about these things. Do you get the vibe that a lot of these aristocrats just want this nine year old storm to be over? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that that is definitely true. They would really really what a lot of these people, a lot of the like, you know, AEI think tankers and national review writers and what have you even Fox House, what they really want is for like Democrats to handle it, like for it not to be their problem. That's what McConnell. Yeah, like they're not going to they're not going to lift a finger to actually stop him from returning to office. They're going to do everything they can actually to get him elected again, even though they don't like but in their heart of hearts, if the Democrats can make him disappear, they'll be a lot of these people are going to be very happy. And I think actually they're mistaken. Like I think that they think that they'll be back in power if that happens and I just don't know. I think Donald Trump's got a death grip on that party. He's not going to let it go. Matt Gertz is a senior fellow at medium matter is what's the best way for our evil army the night to follow you, sir? You want to follow my work at medium matters at Oregon. Follow me on X and other social media platforms at Matt Gertz, G-E-R-T-Z. Great pleasure to have you, sir. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for everything medium matters is doing your help and keep a lot of us sane during this time. Have a great evening. Quick break will be right back with your calls at 866-997-4748. So here's the deal. The mainstream media doesn't talk about this much but it's the native vote that's gotten a lot of credit for helping turn Arizona from red to blue or at least the purple that it is. I mean it's two Democratic senators, Democratic governor, Arizona is pretty blue now and we don't give enough credit for the indigenous vote for helping that happen. But this won't shock you. Tribal communities still face a lot of barriers to voting access in many areas. The recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling upholding that law requiring Arizona voters to show proof of citizenship when they register has alarmed a lot of indigenous communities who see this as well. You know exactly what it is. Another voter suppression tactic, another new rule that has nothing to do with the Constitution that's just made up to solve problems that don't exist to make it harder for some people to exercise their right to vote. I am so pleased to welcome Simon and Julie back to the show. Everywhere I go, the crowds love these people. We just played Portland last weekend and all the meet and greet people. They don't want to talk about me. They want to talk about Simon Moyer Smith and Julie Francella. Simon's an Oglala Lakota Chicano journalist. He's a contributing writer at NBC News and the nation.com. He's the author of the forthcoming book, Your Spirit Animal is a Jackass and Adjunct Professor of Indigenous Studies at the University of Colorado Denver. Simon, welcome back. I always love to be here with you. Happy to have you. Julie Francella is a mental health professional with over 30 years of experience and handling complex trauma with Indigenous youth and families. She's an enrolled member of the Ojibwe of Batchawanna First Nation Reserve. She teaches Indigenous Studies at Durham College focusing on the impacts of colonization on First Nations people. She's also, if I may say this, a terrific painter. You can see her work at Julie Francella.com. Her work has adorned the walls of some of the finest establishments and the walls of some members of the E Street Band even. Welcome back, superstar Julie Francella. Hello. Hi. Thanks for having us back. Always happy to be here. Well, you have a lot of celebrity fans, so I wanted to give your paintings a shout out. So I want to talk about this Supreme Court ruling because this is the sort of thing that people don't think about. I mean, the native vote, and you've talked about this a lot, Simon. It's really made a discernible impact. And sure enough, sure enough, the Supreme Court has decided that they're going to let this state do something to make it a little harder for certain people to vote. Right. Yeah. So that happens in a lot of states. So people can understand Indigenous people on reservations usually don't have an address. So now what they're requiring is that these Indigenous folks in Arizona, and of course, in other places across the US, that they have an address on their ID. And if they don't have an address on their ID, then they're not going to be allowed to vote. Julie, it almost seems like it's rigged that way to make it harder for the native vote to make a difference the way it did four years ago. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it creates these unnecessary barriers to voting, particularly as you're saying, for Native Americans who oftentimes don't have an address on, you know, their tribal IDs. So, you know, listers out there, you know, if you want to help Native voters, you know, facing this suppression, there's a couple of things that you can do if you're interested. You could support advocacy groups like the Native American Rights Fund. You can help spread the word on, you know, social media about how these laws hurt Indigenous communities and pressure lawmakers to oppose voter suppression. You can also, you know, organize or support voter registration drives and educate, you know, communities about, you know, especially Native communities about what their rights are and the voting process. So those are just some things, you know, that maybe listers might want to help out with. Absolutely. I mean, I was kind of shocked by these numbers, you know, Joe Biden won Arizona by just about 10,000 votes, and he got 60,000 ballots coming from voters on the Hopi and Navajo reservations in northeastern Arizona. Kirsten Sinema, former Democrat, she won by 55,000 votes. There was almost 68,000 votes cast in the on-reservation precincts. I mean, these numbers don't lie, Simon, like they never were trying to suppress the Native vote before they realized the Native vote has power. Yeah. And the sad part is, again, we know about this. We're talking about this here on your show, but it's not making real mainstream news. There's been some, you know, little write-ups about it. So this is something that they're doing that is very clandestine and but it impacts specifically us and you got to remember we're the smallest racial minority in our own ancestral land, but yes, we can sway, we can push somebody past the finish line just by our gathering of indigenous people, taking them to the polls. But again, we have to remember that it's some, there's a lot of barriers that also play a part. So for example, if you're in, say, South Dakota and you don't have a car or in South Dakota or there's snow on the ground or you're a senior citizen, there's no way for you to get there. So there's just more, it's just there's barrier on top of barrier for indigenous people to vote. And this is just another attack by the GOP. Absolutely, Julie. Yeah. Another thing too that although, you know, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 requires language assistance for voters in certain areas, native languages are often not included, you know, in this. And so polling places frequently fail to provide necessary translation or interpretation services for some of our elders out there who, you know, are using, you know, their indigenous languages. So it making it harder for some indigenous people to participate. And remember, yeah, everybody, by the way, English is a foreign language that came from England. So there are indigenous people still on reservations today, whose first language is their ancestral language and English is just again, it's complex. You're right. You're told we are at 866-997-4748, 866-997-GRIT. I want to take a moment to ask you guys if you had any thoughts on the presidential debate we saw this week. I'd like to say I've gotten numb to the way right-wing candidates demonize immigrants on stolen land. And yet I still manage to be shocked at the recklessness of it, the hatred behind it, and the brute stupidity of this kind of xenophobic campaigning. Let me ask, Julie, what were your takeaways from the presidential debate? Well, you know, the first thing I thought of, you know, Kamala Harris, her career as a prosecutor, undoubtedly equipped her to handle, you know, figures like Donald Trump, you know, as a former district attorney and attorney general, you know, she spent years navigating adversarial environments often dominated by men just like Trump, you know, so her prosecutor's experience trained her to stay composed, you know, read the room and make sharp evidence-based arguments, even when under pressure, you know, I was thinking her background also gives her this confidence that, you know, she challenges Trump and he's posturing up there, you know, and she knows how to deal with people who attempt to dominate conversations and deflect criticism. So having prosecuted powerful people in the past, Harris is no stranger to dealing with men like Trump who believe they are above accountability. And so that's sort of one of a takeaways that she, I think her whole career was preparing her to deal with, you know, a man like Donald Trump setting like that. I agree with the performance. Were you shocked that Trump went as racist and xenophobic as he did? I wasn't shocked at all. You know, that's his baseline, you know, that's his baseline. It's true. Simon have been dying to get your thoughts on this. Yeah, I mean, again, as a Chicano, I'm not surprised that we're demonized constantly, you know, according to the GOP and of course Trump, you know, Mexicans, my people on my mother's side, you know, we're dangerous, right? And people are just, you know, when it comes to the indigenous side of it as well, it's funny here in Santa Fe, people there are going to be the good old boys. There's going to be the MAGA jackasses and then they have a, you know, they don't like Mexicans. But then when you claim when, you know, they hear your that you're native, they go, oh, so it changes. You're like, but you do know Mexico, that's indigenous people, right? That's a raramuri. That's right. Thank you. Thank you for pointing this out. Thank you. And just because they're on the other side of the border doesn't make them any less indigenous. Yeah, there's going to be the Spanish conquistadors that came in and had that influence. But those are indigenous people too. And as a matter of fact, this is true. If you go all the way down into like Central America and you have all these short indigenous people, you'll see them in New York City. These people still exist. And as a matter of fact, in these concentration camps that they create and download, they created down at the border, they needed to have indigenous translators for the tribes down south. So there's again, the demonization of indigenous people, whether it's south of the border or north of the border, is so ubiquitous. And especially with this guy, that's all he wanted to talk about, every question he was trying to get back to the border. So it was banal. I saw people were posting images of they put a blanket on that side of the TV so they couldn't see them. And I mean, I think after a while, it was pretty creative. I was like, I like that. So I'm not surprised. We're always going to be, at least to these these folks, we're going to be the enemy and they don't really look in the mirror. And men like Trump, they operate from a place of privilege. And I'm thinking about Kamala Harris, who's a woman of color. Men like Trump are often dismissive of voices and experiences outside of their own narrow framework. And it manifest in condescending remarks or an expectation that you should defer to their perspective. And that's Donald Trump in a net show. And so I was thinking, for Kamala, as a woman of color, for other women in those situations, you're conscious of the need to walk a fine line where asserting your authority without being perceived as confrontational, that's also what women have to face in meeting rooms, which is a burden that men like Trump rarely have ever experienced. And as a woman, you've learned to navigate these spaces and understanding that your presence challenges their assumptions, these men's assumptions. So Kamala's lived experience and the challenges that she's overcome and the communities that she represents, I think those are her strengths. And despite attempts to diminish her contributions, women like Kamala and other women out there carry on with a deeper understanding of power and resilience, often more profound than, you know, the loud brash performances of men who haven't had to fight for their seat at the table. And Kamala Harris has had to fight. You're right. She faced off against the most famous racist bully in America. And she never broke a sweat, never got angry, and modeled for so many women and men who have to deal with racist bullies in the workplace, ways you can do this and let them hang themselves with their own stupidity. We are at 866-997-4748. We have a few listeners who want to say hi to you guys. You want to talk to our evil army of the night? A little bit. That's really riff-raffin. Yasha is calling from Oregon on line three. Yasha, thank you so much for waiting on hold. You're on Sirius XM with Simon Moyer-Smith and Julie Frenchlla. Thank you, John, and I do want to talk to you too. Thank you. Sure. We're all here. So, for your guests, Simon and Julie, I wanted to mention Leonard Peltier and his 80th birthday to today, I believe. I wondered if you knew if there's, you know, what the progress is, if there's any kind of movement in what I want to, what am I trying to say, and kind of forward, and in the movement, you know, are the petitions working, how the hell are we going to get him out of jail? Yeah, so as a matter of fact, oh yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. No, please, Simon, please. Yeah, that was actually going to be one of our topics that we're going to discuss today, of course. Yeah, so yesterday is his 80th birthday. Amnesty International did pen a letter on September 4th to President Biden, fighting again to demand, if you will, to release him. He's 80 years old. He's a political prisoner. We knew that Nelson Mandela was one of those champions to see his release. That's correct. But unfortunately, there isn't much movement. There hasn't been a response by the Biden administration. There's no discussion of it with Kamala Harris. So it's everybody, again, Indigenous people, non-Indigenous people, we're doing what we can to get him released. But the US government isn't budging. It would be an amazing thing to see a smart president who wants to produce his progressive legacy due after the after election day. I mean, I can't see them ever doing it before election day, because you know what the right wing would say. But I mean, it seems like this would be a really easy thing for Joe Biden to do on his way out the door. It would be a very easy thing for us. I think one of the issues is, you know, the FBI is opposing his release. And so it's going to be, you know, the optics are going to be really difficult to overcome if they did release him, because if you've got your own FBI, you know, opposing it, that's very difficult. Yeah. From what I understand, the FBI certainly doesn't want to reopen that for what was going on on the res at that time, when the goons and everything else that was going on. Of course, they don't want to reopen it. Also, from what I understand from some of my people friends, some of my brothers and sisters, I could say that, is that they can't prove that he's guilty. They can't. They can't. There's no proof he pulled the trigger. No proof he pulled the trigger. And of course, he's not going to, you know, the FBI, they're serious. He knows who pulled the trigger. And therefore, you know, and it's absolutely obscene because. Yeah. Far more horrendous people have been released. Thank you. From prison. The mention of the Manson people and all that come on. It's entirely, he is the longest serving political prisoner. And I also want to point out if I, if I made it, it's not just Amnesty International. There are former FBI agents. There's Nobel Peace Prize winners. There's former members of Congress. There's a former US attorney whose office handled the prosecution and appeal. That's James Reynolds. They've all called for his release. It's not just like a lefty thing. There's law enforcement who've done it. There's government who've done it. The man's almost 80 years old. His health is declining. He is not a threat to anyone. And again, it would be have to be a brave thing for a president Biden to do on the way out. But it would be the last chance this man would have to walk on the ground and breathe the free air. My hope is John and Julie, you know, you have voices that go white and far and platforms. And I encourage everyone who contacts you and listens to you and all that to each sign a petition. You know, go online and there are petitions out there. And just, you know, sign it. It doesn't take a minute. Call the white and leave a message. It doesn't take a minute. We can just, you know, feel all bad and then feel all righteous. But it's easy to move so that would be good. And I want to thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for calling. I really appreciate it. Thank you for caring so much about Leonard Peltier. Thank you so much. I mean, you know, we were going to talk about this topic coming in because it is a big day. Is it wrong to have hope at this point, Simon? It just sort of seems like this man's going to be made an example of forever and there's not going to be the political bravery to let him die outside of a cage. Yeah. I mean, there's always hope when we have to hope, we have to believe, we have to try. And again, we try to be as loud as we can, but, you know, we're Indigenous people. Not everybody includes us in discussions of even politics that's happening right now, you know, we shouldn't get excited every time they even say the word like, Oh, tribal territories, like, Holy shit, we just got to mention. So trying to even get the Biden administration or maybe even get Kamala Harris to pay attention to this situation with Leonard Peltier. I mean, I don't know, that's an uphill battle. I mean, I don't know how much she even knows about Leonard Peltier or even Biden. And that's the scary thing. You know, she's former prosecutor and attorney that you think she would know, you think some of these people would know these things, but you know, it's not surprising to us when they don't because they're, you know, this is something that we know as Indigenous people, but I don't know if she even knows who he is. Yeah, it's true. I mean, I know who he is and I'm a clown, but I've been, I've seen the documentaries and seen the films. I mean, I, I, they have to know who he is. I mean, you're a prosecutor and you're famous for being liberal, you have to know Leonard's name. But Julie, he only turns 81. So it just seems like this is, this is, if you're ever going to do it, you know, do it now. And there would be FBI agents who would support it because, again, there's never been proof he pulled any triggers that killed anyone. And, you know, my hope is that maybe Kamala Harris, being a prosecutor, will be able to have some fresh eyes and see just how, you know, in unjust it is that he's, you know, being detained still. So that's my hope that there's some fresh eyes. I don't know. You know, we, we talk a lot on the air about the hopes that maybe someday we'd hear some of these candidates focus on Indigenous issues, especially on the debate stage. And you sent me this great piece of Native News online, where three tribal leaders wrote an open letter to the moderators and the candidates, asking them to please push for Native American rights to be part of the upcoming debate. Obviously, it didn't happen. But let's talk about it. Because what are the most important reasons why, when you, as you point out, Simon, you're, you're the smallest minority in the country, and there's a lot of ignorant people who would say, well, then why should your needs be addressed? Well, because of that, this is our land. We're the, we're the, you know, human history began on this continent with us. And I think just because we're a small minority, racial minority in the United States, and because our reservations aren't in the middle of Manhattan or in the middle of Los Angeles, doesn't make, you know, Indigenous lives any less important are the things that impact Indigenous communities off the reservation as well. I mean, these, it doesn't typically make these roundtable discussions again, because we haven't had that invitation to the table. And I've said it too many times before in that diversity list, it goes black, white, Asian, and they usually just say Hispanic. So when they're saying Hispanic, they're not talking about Indigenous people. They're not saying like the, the Lakota, or the, the Navajo, etc. So we have to be louder. We have to push our own bodies literally through doors and block them in elevators at 30 Rock just to get them to fucking pay attention that we're still here and that we exist. I mean, Julie, you know, we think about issues like water settlement rights and tribal sovereignty and missing and murdered Indigenous women. But I mean, it's not just for fans of decency, just for fans of following the law. I mean, if you care about the government upholding treaties, then you should care about Indigenous issues. Yeah. And, you know, as I'm saying, Native American issues have historically been overlooked in, you know, the U.S. presidential debates. With only recently, there was in August of 2019, one significant milestone was the Frank Lemire, Native American presidential forum. And this event was sponsored by the Four Directions Group and held on the Rosebud Reservation. And it marked the first time a major presidential forum focused solely on Native American issues. And there were 10 Democratic candidates, including Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Kamala Harris, they all participated. And the forum centered around critical topics, such as, you know, tribal sovereignty and healthcare, the opioid crisis and just infrastructure in general. So despite the success of this forum, mainstream presidential debates still largely exclude Native issues. So, you know, there's a lot of recent efforts by tribal leaders and Native organizations that have called on debate moderators and presidential candidates to address topics that are vital to, you know, our communities. So again, you mentioned honoring the treaties and safeguarding tribal lands. You said, John, addressing the epidemic of missing and murdered Indigenous women. So those are things that I think it's about time that, you know, we start talking about these things and they're addressed in presidential debates. I mean, I mean, you look at Native American as voting bloc. And they, at least in seven states, Arizona, North Carolina, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, and Wisconsin, are states where the native vote can beat the tipping point in a presidential election. Arizona proved that in the last election. Of those seven states, I just rattled off six of them are six of the big seven swing states in this country. It seems for that reason alone, just cynical self-preservation Democrats would be all over trying to appeal to the native communities because we've seen it. It's enough votes to make a difference. I mean, even though it's enough votes to make a difference, we still hope that they even consider us or think of us when they go down these diversity lists. I mean, it's, yeah, it would make sense, right? It's logical. Like let's court the native vote. It could be that tipping point. But they'd have to, again, they'd have to consider us as that strong voting bloc. But again, that's why I say even in media right now, that nobody's discussing Indigenous people. Nobody's discussing our issues. They're not talking about us as voters. We just don't have a seat at the table right now. And then when you don't have a seat at the table, it's easy for people to ignore you or to not include you. And then again, it goes back to Black Hispanic, Black Hispanic. And then if you say, Hey, we're Indigenous, they go, Oh, yeah, them too. And that's where it ends. And so we don't have a permanent seat at the table. What they do once in a while, they'll roll in a chair and then they'll thank you. And then they roll it back out. And so again, that's why you don't see Indigenous people on MSNBC, CBS, etc. No, I know, I know. I mean, we get occasionally, we get a land acknowledgement at the top of the show. That was pretty bizarre at the RNC to actually see a land acknowledgement broadcast on television and curious conservative folks having to be taught what that is. But you're right. That's as close as we get to anything acknowledging the ground these events take place on Julie. I think that, you know, I honestly believe that Tim Walz is going to instigate some change here because, you know, he, one of his first teaching jobs was on the Pine Res Reservation. You know, he chose, you know, Peggy Flanagan as, you know, lieutenant governor in his state. I think he has an understanding. I think he sees us, you know, we're visible to him. And so for that reason, I really think that I think there's going to start to be a shift. And I think we saw that, you know, at the convention, you know, in Chicago, you know, a lot more representation. And I think that that's, I think that's going to start happening more and more. Because Native American concerns are integral to the broader American socio-political landscape. They truly are. Thank you. Absolutely. Simon, what's the best way for our listeners in riffraff and evil army the night to follow you in your work? On Instagram at Simon said, take a pic or on X, Twitter, whatever that is at Simon Moyer Smith. And Julie, how do we follow you? You can follow me on all social media at Julie Frenciella and my website, Julie Frenciella.com. I want to talk about, do a bit of a digital, but let's go to the phones for a second. Sean, in California, spent on hold forever. Sean, thank you for your patience. You're on with Simon and Julie. Welcome. Oh my goodness. Thank you. By the way, thank you both for being such amazing people to educate people on indigenous peoples, the Native Americans. You know, because the fact is, I think one of our biggest problems, if it isn't the biggest problem in our country, is the fact that we don't look at each other as a community. And that's been my biggest pet Eve. Since I was eight years old, when my grandfather took me to DC and he flew me. My first plane flight, and I told John this story, but then he said, how important all this is. And if you don't look at everyone around you as a community, and you don't look at everyone around you as someone you want to lift up and have a better quality of life, and yes, we know the history. The history is what you need to know when you're growing up, because it wasn't a good history. But I have to tell you guys, thank you for your, you know, being there and educating people on indigenous Native Americans. Don't they make this show so much more dignified, and don't they make me look better by comparison? I mean, seriously, they lift all of us up. Thank you. And that's what we say, you know, all our relations, you know, we are related to every person. And so what do we do? We want to take care of each other. And that's, you know, that's sort of the philosophy. That's the worldview of, you know, indigenous people is community. We're all related, right, Simon? Isn't that the irony to me? Because because that what you're talking about is what Jesus talks about in Matthew 25. And so the indigenous mindset is ironically more Christian than what passes for Christianity for a century. Yeah, so yeah, that's why, yeah, that's why, you know, in Lakota, it's me, and that just means, yeah, we're all related and not just to the humans, you know, everything that is living, we are related to. So that is the earth, our mother earth, that's why we say walk gently on your mother, don't subdue your mother like the Bible says. So it is really important that we have that cohesive community. And then again, that people include us and they're like, Oh yeah, natives too. Right on it. So that's a very important point. And everyone should be included. And I'll tell you what, we just have to keep moving this ball forward, where we have people that care. Sean, thank you so much for calling, man. It's always a pleasure to hear from you. Very sweet. Thank you. Let's do another round of Did You Know? Because I'm star for we haven't done it in a few weeks. Julie, kick us off. What do I need to know? I have, I have a new one. Did you know that California is working on in law to ban Native American mascots in public schools? Assembly Bill 3074, known as the California Racial Mascots Act, would prohibit the use of derogatory Native American terms for school mascots and team names by July of 2026. Simon, why did it take this long for someone to try to get a law like this on the books? I mean, again, it's one of those, a lot of people don't read the empirical research that proves that there has proven that these mascots in the language harm the mental health and stability of children. So this isn't, this, this has been about dignity, but also about the health and wellbeing of the youth. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Julie, what do you think? I mean, it seems like embarrassing that we have to even have someone propose a law like this. That's exactly my thought. The fact that we have to have a law to ban, you know, a racist mascot, like that to me says right there how disconnected people are from the reality and the truth of how these, you know, mascots of harm are young people who are already struggling with identity. And, you know, oftentimes, you know, the, the, what we call internalized oppression. So, you know, having this, a law, it's great and it's moving in the right direction. But, you know, it speaks volumes that we have to have a law about it. You're right. Simon, what do you got? Yeah. So this was a, this is pretty cool up in Alaska for the Yupik, the Anupik, for the Indigenous people up there, they have subsistence days excused for kids. So if you need to go with your family to hunt to provide for, you know, the village to get meat that'll last through the winter, they, they can go there. You just, they bring in a piece of paper just like, you know, if you were going to go on a field trip as a kid, but no, this, they know that this is so important for the communities and villages up there to have the youth learn how to hunt, to have them there to help the elders. So yeah, these kids, it's based on districts, but in that district, they can say, yeah, go ahead, you guys, you go get the meat. I'm so ashamed that I never even knew this was a thing, subsistence days in school. Mm hmm. I mean, wow, the first world has no idea. The first world just has no idea. Yeah, no. And it's a beautiful thing. The elders pass on the wisdom and the kids, you know, they, they help the elders. I mean, Julie, I guess it makes sense. There's parts of this country where people really do still hunt and fish for basic nourishment and for their families, as well. Yeah, up in, yeah, up in some of the northern communities in Canada, there are still people trapping and even using sled dogs to travel still in communities. I lived in a community like that for three years. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Living off the land. Yep. You have another, did you know for us? Yeah, this one's from my nation in Ojibwe, it's customary to always place the person you were speaking to first, which reflects the language's deep cultural value of respect and relation, relationship building. So when, when asking someone's name or where they're from, the structure often emphasizes the listener's identity before your own. So before, you know, you share your name, you always ask the other person, what are they called before you introduce yourself? So that's always, that's. I never knew this. I guess the standard. Huh. Yeah. So can you give me an example of how that would sound phrased out? Yeah. So well, the structure underscores, you know, the importance of acknowledging and honoring the person you're interacting with. So basically, you know, whatever, even in the structure of a sentence, you know, that that person would come before, you know, yourself, the person speaking. So you're always putting the other person burst out of the sign. But even if it's like an ignorant racist, like Tim Sheehee, do I still have to do it then? If it's like someone like that? Yeah. And it aligns from that story last week. Oh my goodness. Yeah, he's getting some fire, I think put to his feet right now. I think a lot of people are, you know, starting to kind of realize, you know, what's going on with Tim Sheehee. We can hope if you don't remember that name, folks, he's the guy we talked about in this hour last week. He's Trump's Senate candidate, who's been caught on tape making very offensive comments about Indigenous people. And I'm hoping that we live in a time, Simon, when this will actually cause a problem for him and not be an easy thing to skate through. Yeah. Yeah. No, he hasn't apologized. They haven't again, I've been paying close attention. They haven't talked about it on any of the mainstream round table, round tables with the pundits. No, I mean, essentially, he's gotten away with it. And I mean, for him to apologize would draw more attention to what he said. It's actually a brilliant point. Guys, I want to thank you both so much. I look forward to this segment all week. Thank you for making our show so much better. Everybody follow Simon Moyer Smith, follow Julie Francesla. And guys, I can't wait till next week. Thank you for really making me look forward to my job every Thursday. I don't. We got to take a quick one. When we come back, we will have a full hour with your calls on all things politics and the Great Max Burns joins us as well. So don't go anywhere. We're at 866-997-GRIT. This is progress. This is Sirius XM progress. We're going to get to your calls now. We'll be taking your calls for the rest of the hour. But let me begin by going to our good friend Max Burns. Any time I can get Max to come on the show, he's one of the smartest guys in politics. He's guest hosted this show many times. He's a public relations society of America, award winning democratic strategist and political columnist. And his advocacy work has guided some very successful companies and campaigns. You can read his stuff everywhere from the Daily Beast to see him on News Nation, NBC News. Great stuff in the hill. Max, welcome back to a debate week to all who celebrate. Hey, thanks for having me. Happy Donald Trump meltdown week. You have a piece on MSNBC.com called Trump's debate meltdown was spectacular. What is your take on it overall? I couldn't really tell from the headline. It truly was in the original meaning of that. I mean, the spectacle was everything. And I've had to remind myself that in the past, I've said that the historical data shows that debate performances don't really move the polls. But that's actually getting kind of hard for me to justify saying when the last debate drove the Democratic nominee out of the race entirely. And this one looks like it is shattered Republican support for Donald Trump. It's never a good sign when the day after your debate is followed by a wave of senior Republicans saying how terribly you did and that they're going to vote for Kamala Harris now. And that's exactly what we've seen over the last 24 hours. Max, is this man somehow under Laura Loomer's spell? Because he came out today and was doubling down on the dumbing down and went hardcore on the Haitian racism again. He did. I'm loving this Laura Loomer, Marjorie Taylor Greene fight. I am too. I love it. They're both on Twitter calling each other racist and for once they're both right. Thank God. I love agreeing with them both. Yes. It is so fascinating to me. This is a sign to me. This is something Trump has done before in his presidency in the 2020 campaign. When he's feeling insecure, when he's really nervous about his performance, he goes to his comfort zone. It's why Corey Lewandowski's back as campaign chairman. It's why Laura Loomer is now on his arm everywhere. And this is coming even as senior Republicans are warning him to ditch these people that they are driving him into this truth social ditch with cat eating controversies and anti-immigrant rhetoric. But he's not listening because this is where he feels most comfortable and he's not capable of adapting away from that. I mean, you begin your piece by stating and quite beautifully, there is a longstanding theory in politics that whoever controls the first 15 minutes of a debate will go on to control the entire evening. And you pointed out that was the case last June when Trump dominated completely from the beginning. What did Kamala Harris do right? A lot of folks have talked about how she seemed a bit nervous in the first few minutes. And I agree, but I think that's why it's so inspiring. You watch her go from being a little nervous at the top to settling in getting comfortable in her own skin and dominating for almost the entire interview. I mean, let's be real, who wouldn't be nervous? That is the most intense experience most people who run for office will ever experience. But I thought she had set herself very clearly on trying to bait Donald Trump. And she did a couple things really well. She made a lot of eye contact with him, which you could tell from the split screen was freaking him out a little bit. He kept looking at the opposite end of the stage, an empty stage, mind you, whenever he was talking. And she would chuckle at some of his comments. And she would sort of poke him and call him weak and say that he may be confused. And by about 20, 25 minutes in, he had clearly had enough. I mean, he mocked what she had said earlier on the campaign trail out of nowhere, which seemed very strange. A lot of wing voters and independent voters in focus groups remarked on that moment where he said, I'm speaking in mockery of what she has said before as being the moment where they started to burn on him in terms of favorability. And it just got worse from there. I mean, by the first commercial break, he was ranting about people eating people's pets and telling us that he gets all of his policies from what he sees on television. It was a spectacular effort by a prosecutor to poke the person on the stand into incriminating themselves. And honestly, that makes me much more confident in her ability to deal with a lot of the foreign policy challenges, a lot of the international adversaries America is going to face because that was a clean, clean attack. I mean, you make it sound beautiful. And it was remarkable to watch and to see how she set little landmines for him here and there that he couldn't help but take the bait. But what fascinated me the most, Max, was he's got lots of advisors. He's paying a lot of money to in his ears, cautioning him that going to the crazy side might feel good for his id. But that's why they lost in 2018. It's why they lost in 2020. It's why they lost in 2022. All these Republicans who've tried to be like Trump cannot be like him and going that far to the right has hurt them as well. He seems sentient enough to understand the abortion business that's hurt the party. But that's about it. I mean, he he he he's capable of having some people tell him he didn't do well, I'm sure. But right away today, again, he was going crazy with the the the talk about the immigrants eating pets, knowing that's a loser. I mean, what we saw at the debate was a Donald Trump campaign rally. If you you know, you've watched these, it was the exact same almost word for word lines. And it's not that I think he wasn't prepped on how to bring this fight to Kamala Harris. His advisors going into this were very clear that their metric for victory was to link Kamala Harris to Joe Biden and tie Joe Biden's record to her. The only excuse here is that he got flustered and either could not remember the talking points or that he never had any intention of doing that anyway and retreated almost immediately into the attacks we've seen by any measure when Lindsey Graham is saying your debate was a disaster. And he's your surrogate in the spin room. That's a really really tough night. Prompting Laura Loomer to publicly out Lindsey Graham and call him gay and demand he comes out. I mean, it's just they're all turning on each other. And we've still got 50 days to go. It's porn for the angels and the good Lord brought lube. Let me ask you, Mr. Burns, in looking at this particular debate, are you surprised that Trump said he wouldn't do it again? And should Kamala Harris continue to command more debates? I mean, to me, if she demands more debates, it's win win for her. If he says, yes, she gets to show him up again. And if he says, no, he looks like a coward, I think she should continue to demand he debate her. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this was something Donald Trump initially wanted three debates with Joe Biden said it was a sign of weakness to step out of a debate. It said many times that the person who's arguing about how they were treated on the debate stage is the person who lost. And that's all we saw at that debate was him arguing with moderators being fact checked on obvious lies. And having literally no response, in some cases, to questions, I think about the question of why he called into question Kamala Harris's race and said she had decided to be black. And his answer was literally, I don't know. I don't know why I say these things. He said something on TV. He said I saw something on TV. He literally is a grandpa close your bathroom. Grandpa, when company comes over, like, he literally saw something on TV and just spat it out. Like, no. And I mean, he has no policy genius, but he is a great EV personality. And he is sharp enough in TV to know when he has bombed and when a segment has not gone well. And the face he made leaving that stage was the face of someone who would desperately like some reshoots. So then let me ask you a question about the mechanics of it. You might not know this, Max, but I'm asking everybody who's smarter than me. And that's pretty much everyone. But you're particularly smarter than me. When the campaigns go through these debates and they sign off on things, right? They sign off on the size of the podium. They sign off on the lighting. Do they do they sign off on the camera angles as well? Because we saw an awful lot of our right wing friends try to blame the moderators for Trump's bad performance to blame Kamala Harris's earrings for Donald Trump's bad performance and blame the camera angle for Donald Trump's bad performance. I actually wound up thinking that the campaigns had probably requested these angles because it was much more flattering than if they shot Trump from below, if you know what I'm saying. Well, in my very limited experience, the camera angles are normally handled by the networks, but there have been cases I know particularly Democrats were very unhappy with the way the first debates cameras were set up where Joe Biden was often on screen by himself reacting to Donald Trump in a way that made him look like he was was not entirely present. And it may not have been, but there was certainly a call on both sides to make sure both candidates got as much screen time as possible. I think what they didn't expect is that Kamala Harris would so effectively use facial gestures, which is something prosecutors learn. It's very effective room tactic. She played to the jury the entire time. I made my son watch to explain nonverbal communication. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that was a masterclass, and I detected in that. And in her hand gestures, if you noticed, a lot of Barack Obama style, and you can tell she watched the Obama debates. And she internalized the cadence of that because it sounded very presidential. And amusement over hatred. I mean, if weird taught us anything, it's that, you know, confused amusement over scorn and hatred is much, much more effective. Yeah, the worst thing you can do for these kind of tin pot authoritarians is laugh at them, is point out. And when they say the Haitians are eating their pets in Springfield, Ohio, you just laugh. Because what can you do but laugh at that? It's something that if you take it seriously, if you try and push back, he's just going to give him more time to talk about it. Just laugh. I know what you can do. You can you can send JD Vance to the rescue on squawk box on CNBC with our old pals, Joe Kernan and Becky quick, which is what the campaign did today. JD Vance doesn't seem to realize that immigrants come here because we are the best economy in the world. And with immigrants, we've created the best economy in the world. He actually seems to believe the exact opposite. I'm going to miss JD Vance when this is over in 50 odd days, Max, but give a listen, here is baby man earlier today with Joe and Becky on squawk box. Town, if the path to prosperity was flooding your nation with low wage immigrants, then Springfield, Ohio would be the most prosperous country in the post prosperous sitting in the world. America would be the most prosperous country in the world because Kamala Harris has flooded the country with 25 million illegal legal aliens. What's actually happened is that over the past three and a half years, while we've had this massive influx of illegal labor, what's happened? We've had skyrocketing inflation, lower take-home pay, Americans more dissatisfied with direction of the country and the economy than they've been in a generation. This is not the path to prosperity, no matter how much a Wall Street bank says that it is. Okay, if all undocumented immigrants were deported today, next year's Social Security trust funds would have 13 billion less for benefit payouts. Max, I don't know if you want to tell JD or if I should tell him, but America, first off, people want to come here because we do have the most prosperous country in the world, but the fact is that America has the best recovery of all capitalist nations on earth from COVID and they're still trying to blame the recession we're recovering from and the inflation we're recovering from on Biden Harris policies, not on worldwide COVID that caused inflation across the globe. Yeah, and this whole line is the path to prosperity was flooding. Sorry, go ahead. And he's racist, too. Sorry. He absolutely does say this whole anti-immigrant line would be more effective if Americans hadn't already experienced it. I mean, we saw in Alabama and Georgia years, years ago, they did implement policies under Barack Obama to bar undocumented migrants from working in agriculture. The result was a massive economic downturn for those states, root literally rotting in the fields, something so catastrophic to their state economies that the Republican legislatures overturned it because they were facing a depression in those states. I mean, we've seen from example that this is nonsense. And I just wonder where JD Vance is getting it. He's getting it from right wing TV, just like Donald Trump. Rufac, it seems to be the case, right? I mean, you have another great piece in the hill that I want to talk about where you pretty much nail it. This piece is about how Donald Trump by catering only to his most online supporters, because again, he's addicted to praise. He's addicted to being worshiped. Your piece is called consumed by his own conspiracy theories, the downfall of Donald Trump. I mean, we've been predicting this for a really long time. Donald Trump does seemingly have the discipline to know he shouldn't indulge in certain things. He just doesn't feel like it. No, not at all. And Vox wrote a similar piece that has even more data points in this called Donald Trump lost the debate because he's too online. And it's true. I mean, if you look at the oddball things that he said, these things specifically about the immigrants eating pets, that is something that makes no sense to a voter who does not spend the majority of their time on Twitter or true social, where the majority of Americans who had not heard anything about that story before it happened, it sounded like Donald Trump had lost his mind. And that's what all of the focus groups seem to show. But among his base on true social, they loved it. But they're already voting for him. Exactly. He keeps campaigning for the slice of America that's already solidly in his corner. And this is what I keep saying with this Republican party over and over again. Nikki Haley for all her many flaws understands you've got to cast a wider net. Donald Trump keeps running for the Republican party nomination as far to the right as possible. And no one seemed to told him he's supposed to be working on all those malleable white people in the center. Now again, Vance on squawk box earlier today, you know, Joe curtains a conservative guy I've worked with him. I've known him. And he says what would be the first regulatory action and Vance goes drill baby drill. And and Kernan like look shot. It's like we're producing more crude oil than any country ever. And Vance is like, well, it's a lot less than we could be producing. And like like literally he's getting fact checked. And CNBC is not Fox News. People with college degrees who manage their portfolios are watching squawk box like he's not talking to dumb conservatives on this channel. They don't know how to play to real people. I just have to wonder if JD Vance is getting a paycheck from the Democratic party because he has been such a benefit. I mean, every major stumble that Donald Trump had every time he was directly fact checked during that debate was as a result of something his vice presidential nominee said on the campaign trail. I mean, this guy has put more landmines in front of his potential boss than any vice presidential nominee since Sarah Palin. And we see how well that went. So tell me how how you thought they did. I mean, Donald Trump, everyone already knew him. He had to try to convince, you know, moderate voters that he was safe and that they'd be okay with him. He had to try to convince Nikki Haley Republicans that he was not going to embarrass them. Kamala Harris had a much harder job going into this because a lot of folks still didn't know her, never watched a speech, never watched the DNC speech. How did she do? We talk a lot about how badly he did. How did she do it presenting herself to these confused white people in seven states who still haven't made up their mind? God help us. Well, a debate is a terrible place to introduce yourself. I mean, it's the most manufactured environment in the world. And it's not enough, quite frankly. I mean, she did well. But I were hearing now that she's going to start an interview blitz. She's going to be on traditional news. She's going to be going on podcasts. She's going to be going on YouTube and talking to people. And that's really what she needs to do. There is no substitute for getting out in front of those audiences and engaging them. The debate, even though it was watched by 60 plus million people, those are largely people who have already made up their mind. That's just what the data tells us. The people watching YouTube, the people who are tuning into their local news, who are not expecting to see Kamala Harris on there and maybe are watching her for the first time. Those are the people she needs to reach. And that's the only way to reach them. And she needs to reach people like me who support transgender operations on illegal aliens that are in prison because those are my people. Yeah, she needs to specifically come on, tell me everything for the for a full hour. This is my professional advice to her. Max, here's the million dollar question. Are you at all at all encouraged by the real life fact checking? We saw, you know, executing babies after birth, they fact checked him for the first time ever. Immigrants eating pets, they fact him, fact checked him on that, that everyone wanted Roe v. Wade to be overturned. I mean, the amount of lies that we saw two nights ago, did you think it was a promising start that the two anchors managed to enrage so many right-wing folks? Because they've got their talking points. The talking points have nothing to do with defending Trump. It's all about how the deck was stacked against our leader. Yeah, and I think in this era of Trump, where I've really lost a lot of faith in in the ability of debates to do good as opposed to just platforming harm. It was really refreshing. I mean, that was what a debate should be. And they weren't moderators weren't combative. They were very direct. They pointed out that they did the research. There's no data to support this claim. And then gave Trump room to respond. And it was in those moments that he derailed the worst when simply asked to justify with data, something that he's claimed Donald Trump locks up. And that, you know, if that doesn't favor your candidate, then your candidate has a problem. Before I lose you, Mr. Burns, I would be most remiss if I didn't ask you your thoughts on this curious phenomena of Russia paying right-wing douchebags to be right-wing douchebags. We saw this is like Benny Johnson and our good friend, former liberal, former LGBTQ person Dave Rubin. It turns out they have been being paid substantially by Russia to do what they already do. Speak ignorant racist shit that divides our country. Is this not the least surprising news you've ever heard? I feel like we all sort of assumed this. But to see it in black and white in charging documents is quite shocking. And it shows you that these people, they're not motivated by political ideals. They're not motivated by some mag of values. They're motivated by those six figure paychecks they were getting every month. And if it was Iran or some other regime paying them the same amount, they'd be touting the same things for them. And that's the, that's what we need to worry about. We need to be much more discerning in the people that we choose to platform and actually ask some questions about the media companies that suddenly have a whole lot of money to platform them. Oh, I don't know. I like platforming the kind of riffraff I get, like Stephen from Kentucky. But yes, I appreciate where you're coming from on this. Hey, you know what, before I lose you, Max, let me just play a little bit of a Secretary Pete Buttigieg, who I think we should make appearing on Fox Academy position. Here he is earlier today weighing in on JD Vance's comments. We heard on CNBC. Earlier today, I saw that JD Vance went on TV and said that if immigration were part of how countries become prosperous, then quote, America would be the most prosperous country in the world, which makes me wonder what country does JD Vance think is the most prosperous country in the world, since he doesn't think it's America. And also, does he really think that immigration has nothing to do with American prosperity? Most Americans disagree. By the way, most Americans also disagree with Donald Trump's decision to kill the bipartisan border bill that Kamala Harris has pledged that she would sign if it came to her. So rather than have us talking about that, he wants us talking about people allegedly eating cats, which is. Yeah, I mean, he's right. I cannot wait for the vice presidential debate. It is going to be amazing. Do you think we'll see any Democrats brave enough, Max, to come out and say, immigration right now is the reason America is recovering from worldwide COVID inflation better than any other country? Because I think Pete came up to the line of saying that, but I don't think they're going to actually defend immigration in an election year. Now, unfortunately, I'm with you. I think the immigration is still at one of the few issues voters are hesitant about Democrats on. And that's that's a lot of moral courage to summon up in an election year as much as I would love to see it. Yeah, Mr. Burns, what's the best way for our listeners to follow you and keep up with all your brilliance? You can follow me on Twitter at DMACC Burns and you can check me out at the Hill MSNBC and now at Daily Coast twice a week. Fantastic. I can't wait. Max, thank you. It's always a great joy. Come back and see us very soon. Anytime. Thanks.
