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It's Friday, September 13th, 2024. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] All right, everybody, let's start off with our traditional segment, where I tell you that if you'd like to support our show, it's very easy. All you have to do is go to this URL, supportourshow.com, which is still incredible to me that nobody had. But they didn't, now I do, which means you can use it to go and find a array of ways to support the show as a whole, or land or myself, as individuals. So, use that URL, go there, and choose whatever path appeals to you most. And, as far as I know, the code OZ-O-N-E as in the first, sorry, the second word in the show title, or the first word in the URL, ozoneshow.com. OZ-O-N-E, as far as I am aware, nobody has reported otherwise. And I haven't been told in the official capacity that this in the long of the case, will still get you two months free of podcasting on Libsyn, which is where we've been. For, I believe, the entirety of the show. So, I'm not being paid, there are no kickbacks, this is not a supported or promoted post. >> But I'll take kickbacks, that's fine. >> I will take kickbacks if they are forthcoming. But, we've been there, I think, the whole time, so I have no complaints. And, anything that shows segment with anything else? No, I think that's probably it for the moment, yeah. >> Yeah, that's it. >> Yeah, that's it. >> So, promotional segments, promotional segment over. >> So, you saw that Ford put in a permit for a car-based advertising system? >> Of course they did. >> I, they've been talking about it for years. >> Oh, I know, I know, and the thing is like, the closer they move to it, the more I start to look at like the older used market of like, you know. [LAUGH] Fucking classic cars, I said to my wife, I was like. >> That's all gonna be, there's gonna be a secondary market of people who, for 50 or $100, will kill all the stuff that will bounce back from it. >> Yeah, well, I said to my wife, I was like, the fuse will be easy to get to it first, cuz they won't think about it. Cuz you know, like there's that board under your dash, where you usually get most of the fuses, I was like, first they'll put it there, and when people start pulling it, then they'll start moving it, and like deeper into the car, and at one point, it'll be like tied into like the engine itself, where the car won't run. You know, unless you've got the the add thing. But I wonder how they're gonna do it, are they gonna have ads at you? Or is it gonna be like this thing where to get the, to, you know, like before your car starts, watch 30 seconds of ads, you know. >> I would, I mean, they've talked about different approaches. The one that seems the most likely is that, for example, your in-car entertainment system will either give you an audio add or display something, unless you either pay additionally, or you use one of their preferred services, you know, something like that. >> So they're gonna go like the, the iPad, I don't know what he called the. Jesus, the no, nothing, no. I'm gonna name every device with a goddamn thing. >> No, the Kindle, Kindle route. >> The Kindle route, yeah, where you can buy the Kindle without ads or you can buy the Kindle with ads, all right, but, but are they gonna make cars cheaper then, are they just gonna make cars more expensive so you can get them out there? >> No, no, the cheaper cars are the, oh yeah, the, the, the ad-based cars will be considered the base models. That will be, you know, the, the lowest sticker price of all the- >> Yeah, it's like they can't, they can't just leave any, they refuse to leave any money remotely on the table. They need to make sure they script every last penny from you. >> Stephanie Sterling has a great saying, which I don't know if she originated or not, but she says it a lot and it is that the thing about capitalism is these companies don't want some of the money, they want all of the money. And as soon as you've baked that into every decision, it makes it very easy to understand why this will never end and never stop as long as there's any way for them to get even five cents more out of you. >> Yeah, and they don't care- >> Because they want to continue the pennies. >> Yeah, and they don't care how it cripples individuals, they just want all the money. >> At some point or another, they're going to destroy the customer base enough that no one can afford to buy their ship. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, what they've seen is that there is a, there is a shrinking of the middle class, which has been going on for a while. And what is instead happening is that people with money have more and more money. And those people don't care because what's an extra $1,000 a year to a bill? >> So they're just going to start shifting everything specifically to like the ultra-rich. >> Right, probably. >> Yeah, and everybody else won't be able to afford to not do it, you'll have to because you won't be able to do anything else. So that's what they care about. >> I don't know. I do worry that there is a point where people just can't afford anything. >> Well, I mean, we're already kind of there. >> There's a level of poverty that it just feels, you know, there are, there are days where it feels perverse that they're pushing some of the technologies they are. And we're still dealing with the fact that so many people are starving and that, you know, so many people are homeless and there's so much, many have mental health issues and school shootings. I take school shootings very personally. The school shooting that happened in, what was it, Virginia? >> What? >> No, I think it's Georgia. >> Is it Georgia? >> I think so. >> Yeah, that is front of my wife's child. >> Oh, wait, Georgia High School, does that mean in Georgia or was that the name of the hold on? You could be. No, no, winder Georgia. So no, I didn't know if that was the- >> So that was the, that was the high school of my wife's friend's child, and she got a text that was like, there's a live shooter in the school. And I was like, yeah, there you go. It's like, the shit just gets closer and closer. >> I mean, it's a shame these things are a fact of life now, what are you going to do? >> Yeah, yeah. I hate that. Has it the, the onion? Has it a great headline, the- >> Country, country says, man, what is it? >> School shootings. >> School shootings, yes. >> It has to happen, and the only country where this almost happens. >> There's no way, there's no way to stop this says country where only- >> Only country where it happens, yeah. >> Where school shootings happen, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and it's just, yeah, so. Sometimes I find it very perverse. I love technology, you know, I like trying to make life better, but I feel like sometimes we're beyond the point of making things better and we're just focusing on just making money, you know, and, and, yeah. >> We are. >> Yeah. >> That's, that's the point. >> That's the point. >> We don't care, yeah. >> I've said this a number of times. >> Yeah. >> I've said this a number of times. Wealth equals value of a person. If you are, if you are not of a certain wealth or a monetary standing, you don't matter. That's it. >> Yeah. >> And capitalist countries anyway, that's what it is. It's all about how it's- >> And the thing is, and I got to tell you, like, I'm, I'm almost done with that doctor book walk away. >> Yeah. >> And the book took a turn on me. I'm near the end and a lot of people are dying. A lot of people are dying in this book and it's really bumming me out. I realized I had a Philip K. Dick moment with Doctor O and I give him credit because there's, there's not a lot of authors I get that where I'm like invested enough that I'm actively bummed out. But a lot of that book is about, you know, a lot of sci-fi is about, is, is the now. It's, it's the futurist now, right? So that book, there's a lot in there about, you know, capitalism and what do countercultures look like and the people who want to keep the status quo, the status quo, because that's where the money is for them and, and it's, it creates this fascinating no way out situation that you're reading his book and you're like, well, this is, you know, this is science fiction. And then you stop and you're like, not completely, like a lot of this is kind of now, you know. >> It's, it's an ask. The thing is, well, it's very funny is that I had a, I recently had a lot of road dripping and I was listening to Normancer again because I needed, I needed something to kind of clear my head and Normancer's like my, I don't call it my safe space because, but it's, it's a book I know so well. So I was like, yeah, I'll listen to it for a bit. >> It's your mental, it's your mental recola or recola, how are we supposed to say that? >> I don't even know. And actually what it is. >> It's the stuff that's supposed to clear your sciences. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, the commercial, yeah. I actually wanted to listen to the Normancer so I could then go on to listen to the rest of the, the sprawl's trilogy because I realized I hadn't really gone to those in a while and you read those recently. So I thought. >> Yeah, I just, I'm, I'm in the middle of a door right now, like the 60% mark. >> Yeah. >> Oh, well, you're, then you're in the bridge trilogy. >> No, that's what I'm saying is I, I, I, I finished those and went straight into the bridge. >> Yeah. So, yeah. So I thought that I somewhat preferred the bridge over sprawl. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, no, no, no. I prefer a Normancer. But as a trilogy, I prefer the bridge. >> No, that's what I'm saying. So that's, I'm reading that one back to back to back to get the whole thing. >> There's, yeah. There's a strange kind of way that's all tied into itself, you know what I mean? >> Well, I don't know that I've ever read them this close together. That's the thing is I've read them as a trilogy, but I think I always put space between them. >> Yeah. Well, yeah, I think you're, I've always felt like you're supposed to because there's space in the book. >> That's interesting because I'm, I'm getting the IV experience where it's just firing right in. So. >> Yeah. Well, because like the, the door. The door was the last, all tomorrow's parties. I think there is a space between a door and all tomorrow's parties. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Whereas in door and virtual light, I think those are very close. You know, like, yeah, in the same way that- >> Well, yes. I mean, some amount of time has passed, but he, the, I, I actually like the fact that he never makes clear how long? >> Well, it's up to you, isn't it? >> Because one of the characters was on the bridge in virtual light and is now working with the Australian guy in, I do a row and you don't really know how long has happened because he was just on the bridge in the last book and now suddenly he's in a completely different country working with a completely different person. So. >> Time has passed. >> Sometime. Anyway, sorry. >> But, but listening to Neuromancer, there's a lot of the things that Doctorow's talking about in his book that were like already there in, in Neuromancer. You know, Gibson was writing during the 80s when you have like, you know, Reagan, Reaganomics and all this stuff and, and you know, you, you feel it, you feel that capitalist burn in that book where, you know, you have these, these clones, orbital super rich families, you know, we're, we're, there's this great line, yeah, where it's technically, it's technically a corporation, but, you know, a share of that company hasn't been on the market for almost 100 years, you know, which is an old family, you know, low orbit, you know, corporate entity type of thing. >> I got to tell you, by the way, Gibson might be the author who has the most names of companies and groups that have stuck with me permanently. >> Oh, yeah? >> Like, I will look at computers in my brain and I'll look at it and I'll be like, oh, no, said die. Like, I just, oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Like, as your test, that test pool is such a neat name. It's a lyrical name. >> Yeah. >> He has so many of these really great names for things. >> Yeah. >> More than any other author I can think of. >> With the, the Panther Moderns. >> Yeah. Or the, the, the, what was it like, ah, God, the ones who were like made out after Count Dracula. I don't remember what the gang's name is. I mean, occasionally, but all the gang names that he comes up with and all this stuff. >> I love, I love the, I mean, the touring police. I always remember that. >> Yeah, yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's great. >> But I mean, I think he, he, he had a very kind of, a lot of people complain, a lot of people complain about Normancer because Gibson doesn't explain stuff, right? Where he, he'll drop a technology and he'll show you what it does or he'll kind of leave it on the periphery. He just name checks it as he goes. And a lot of people hate that. And you're like, well, I don't know what it is, and it's kind of like, well, you don't, you don't necessarily need to know what it is. >> No. >> Do you know how every technology works in modern day? And like, I like that he plays things kind of fast and loose and lets the reader have to be like, yeah, what is that? You know? >> Well, and often I like the fact that the characters don't all know either. His character is like something and they're like, I don't know what that is. And so, and there was like, it's kind of like the watermelon and buckler, yeah, I'll explain it later. And then they just never explain it. It doesn't mean anything. It's okay. >> Yeah. Great. But that whole vision of the future, like that, so this book walk away, this sometimes doctoral stuff feels like early Gibson. Not in the sense that of the writing, but the time frame, do you know what I mean? Like, early, some of Doctorow's books feel like they are on their way to where Normants are already is. And that's, I find that fascinating. And in itself, you can talk about worlds you'd like to occupy. I don't want to occupy the world of the sprawl because it sounds neat, but it's kind of a neon gutter, unless you're one of the super rich, right? >> Yeah. >> So, in fact, I find that there's not a lot of Gibson's worlds that I actually want to occupy. >> No, there's an interesting thing with his books where... >> Like, I wouldn't mind Pattern Wreck, but Pattern Wreck is today. >> Well, yeah. But no, no, even in the other books, even in the sprawl and the bridge stuff, there is this interesting narrow band of groups, like the bridge sounds like an interesting place to be. >> But it's, but you're living under the poverty line, like that's what it is. >> It is. >> It sounds... >> But because the entire ecosystem is like that, you're not within it. >> But there's a philosophical happiness about it. >> That's the thing. >> That's the thing. >> And walk away, that's what it is, too, is people who basically leave, honestly, it's people who are leaving society to try and form a bridge. That's what the walkaways are, they're trying to form a bridge culture, right? But they get, but they start to challenge the status quo enough that the oligarchs essentially go, "Yeah, we gotta wipe these people out." And that's where I'm in the book right now, where they're all getting firebombed. And I feel horrible because a lot of these people are walking around going, "Well, at least we've got backups." And you're like, "No, they're not backups, they're copies, guys, they're copies. That's not you. It's a copy." But I'm sitting there going, "I hope the copies raise hell because these people are all dying." And that's the thing is the bridge culture is like that. These people who are, they're still part of society, but they've kind of moved, I mean, they're not paying rent, they've basically taken something that's abandoned and made it a home. Sometimes I feel like Gibson's governments are more benign than Doctorow's governments. Doctorow's governments are, you know what, it's not even that. It's Gibson's corporations are not as aggressively bad as Doctorow's. Like Tessier Ashpool is there, but they're not aggressively bad. They fucking own everything and they have like fingers in everything, but they themselves are not aggressively after you, whereas in a lot of Doctorow's books, especially Walk Away, they're sending mercenaries to kill people, you know what I mean, like it's that kind of thing. In Gibson's book, that's more organized crime than the actual corporations. Like the ninja in Noramancer, he is not a tool of aggression. He is a tool of defense. Somebody steals from Tessier Ashpool, they send the ninja, the clone ninja, to get it back. At the end of the book, the clone ninja is protecting one of their members, right? But he's not, I mean, I suppose he could, but the way they are portrayed in the book, they are, that he's not going out and, you know, he's not being aggressive, he's being defensive. Yeah. Well, even when they get to Lady Three Jane or whatever, yeah, yeah, she's not like a, what do you call it, mustache twirling villain. No, she's just kind of boring. She's like, oh, she's a board space cadet. Yeah. Then in the next book, because she's been condemned to be virtual the whole time, she's kind of this weird, angry ghost that can't do anything, which is bizarre and interesting that she's been condemned to the kind of a hell of her own making. So I like that, but that's, that's after she's already kind of been beaten before that she just seems like eternally bored, she just doesn't like her dad, you know, that's it. Yeah. So you're right though. There is a board, there is a board borderline indifference to Gibson's big villains. The small individuals are the actual people. Or the hungry. Yeah. The hungry ones are the trouble. Like Riviera and Nurem answer is the problem, even though you're working with him. He's a problem. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. No, he is. He is by far the most dangerous thing in the book. For a while. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well, yeah. Of course. But, but that's the person that Molly smart about, no, he's the one to watch to switch authors from you there for a second, right? Switch over to a snow crash, right? Stevenson. Well, the, there is a, a weird, corporate church thing going on the background, right? With the, the babblers and all that stuff, right? But who you're really worried about is Raven. Raven, maybe. Yeah. Raven's the problem. Raven's a sovereign nation. Like. Yeah. Al Bob Reif is a very background player for a long time. Yeah. And he's a problem too. And it made the traditional villains, which are the best ones, which is Mr. Lee and Uncle Enzo are heroic in the, in the thing, like the mob guys. Yeah. Well, because the, the mob, because, well, this is, because this is a vision of the future where crime has basically become like Disneyland. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. That's, that's one of those. God, I fucking love snowcrash. I fucking love snowcrash. No, and it is. Snowcrash is one of those great sites. It's, it's one of those tent pole cyberpunk books. You got Noramancer. You got snow crash, like virtual light is cyberpunk, but it's a different kind of error of cyberpunk. Which is interesting to me that like you've got these two trilogies this guy wrote that are essentially both cyberpunk but in different time zones of cyberpunk. Oh, very, and, and have very different visual kind of feelings to them, even though they are somewhat related in their kind of basic blocks. But I always think of Gibson's as slightly staticky. There's always that slight noise at the trackings off to everything. Because like Stevenson stuff is all like jet black background, no desktop wallpaper. It's all just the characters in the big situations, but the background is always black. There is no background. Kind of like what the metaverse is, where it's just a lane of highway against nothing except the things that are along the street. Well, there's a, you, you get the street in Stevenson's book and you get the cyberspace with Gibson. Yeah. Right. I hate to leave out Bruce Sterling, but like Bruce Sterling stuff. I like his work, but it always felt slightly weaker. Well, look, there's other great sci-fi authors. Oh, no, no, no, no, I'm just like cyberpunk like, Oh, sure. Yeah. Main, you know, main, you know, main, cyberpunk, if it's just someone said to you, what's cyberpunk novels should I read? Oh, yeah. Do you mean? Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's going to be Gibson Stevenson. I mean, it's going to be. Yeah. Well, I'm curious. The best cyberpunk novels, horrible typing, there's nobody who writes as much as I do. I type like shit. Yeah. Let's see. What happens? Recommendations. I want a best of less than one. Oh, yeah. Well, here we go. I got it. Oh, here we go. I got it. Come up. He'll come up. This is good reads. Best cyberpunk. Oh, yeah, no. Let's see. Here we go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now things get a little bit interesting. Oh, wow. I'm not sure. Wait, wait. Is this specifically cyberpunk? Yes. Yes. This is the best. This is the best. No, no, no, no. I'll give it to you. I just want to make sure because I want to put it in the show. Yeah, because I want I want to present these to you as we go because I am not sure I agree with these. All right. This is a boss. situation happened. Maybe. Yeah. Best cyberpunk books. Three is do androids dream of electric sheep. Fuckage. I almost said I wonder if Philip K. Dick shows up in here. Now here's the thing. I love do androids dream of electric sheep, but I don't necessarily consider that a cyberpunk novel. You know what? Well, no, because because no, because I'm giving a serious considerate. Well, it is because I'm really thinking about it. The movie. Here is the movie. I feel is more cyberpunk than the. Okay. I think you can make a good argument that the book is as well. All right. You can make the argument. I'm just saying that it definitely doesn't feel like number three. Well, that's. Peripheral. I was going to say, I think the reason that's placed so highly is because they're seeing it with the movie. However, yeah, to be fair to the actual story, the elements of the virtual kind of the mood controlling virtual hardware, which they really never touched in the movie. That's more explored. Ironically, in total recall. To be clear, this is a great short story. I'm just saying that in the vein of cyberpunk, it feels like peripheral. No, it's not. It's a it's a novella. It's really short. Got it. Right. Right. Yeah, it's. Hold on. Don't worry. Number four is worse. Ready player one. Oh, yes. You're out. God. Bye. Now, don't be wrong. You said, what is modern day cyberpunk reading? I would say that ready player one feels like it's a derivative where it's like somebody who grew up on cyberpunk who wanted to write cyberpunk, right? But I wouldn't put it in a top 10 list of like, if I was if I was teaching a class in cyberpunk, ready player one would not be there. Ready player one would be on the, you know, list of books you could go investigate on your own afterwards after we've touched the court material. And here's the thing. So on there's a book in here that I really love that I'm also going to kick out. But okay. That was number four. Number five. By the way, I'm going to give you a a there is a album that was put out. Yeah. I want to say it was probably in the 2000s, it was a album that was a series of covers of Led Zeppelin songs. The reason I know this is because I own it because Stone Temple Pilots had a song on it. Oh, wait. I have that album. Yeah. Great. But the I remember the Stone Temple pilot was really good. Is it dancing days? They do dancing. I believe so. Yes. Yeah. So if somebody said, here are the greatest rock albums of all time, and they put that album on there, that's ready player one. No, no. Yeah. It's good. But it's covered. I don't even know if I would say it's good and because it's it's not it's well. Okay. Whatever it is. It's that is putting that that is the equivalent of putting ready player one on this list. Guys in. Come on. Give me a fucking thing. Yeah. Well, hold on. So five and six are count zero and Mona Lisa overdraw. Hey. All right. Which is right now. Which to me. Honestly, I would just put the trilogy. I know. I know. But this is the list, right? So now here's the thing. Number seven is one of my favorite books, probably one of my like probably top five books of all time, right? But I don't think it should be on this list either, which is altered carbon. Love that book. I don't think it's core, especially since especially since listen to this number eight is the diamond age and diamond age should be above altered carbon. I don't necessarily disagree and you know, I love that. Well, I mean, some of this comes down to what elements of cyberpunk you prioritize. It just depends. Yeah, I suppose. And like, I guess the other thing is, well, let me read it. It's far less than a front than ready player one. I'm number four, right? Yeah. So let me read you the rest of the list. So the diamond age is number eight, which is a really great book. Burning Chrome, which is the collection of cyberpunk short stories and burning chrome is awesome. And burning Chrome itself is an amazing story. Yeah. Giant mnemonic. The new is it new rose hotel? The new rose hotel. Yeah. Yeah. Now number 10 is mirror shades, the cyberpunk anthology that was edited by Bruce Sterling. That is a great collection. Sure. Right. That's the top 10 of this list. After this, you get to a lot of those stuff and I'm kind of like, okay. You know, Krypton Amicon. I don't consider it to be a cyberpunk book, virtual light, Edoro, I do, right? I've never read held divers. I don't know what it is. I don't know why it's on the list. Have you read held divers? No, I need to know what this is because I've never even heard of this. I mean, I would put hardwired ahead of fucking ready player one. I know. There's so many better goddamn ready player one. Yeah. Yeah. This doesn't, this, this held divers book doesn't feel cyberpunk at all either. Weird. I mean, yeah, but then like number 15 pattern wreck, hardwired by Walter John Williams. That's it. There it is. Should be way higher and should. That's the one I was just talking about. That should. Hardaway. You would put that ahead of fucking one. And here's the thing. When gravity fails is number 18. When gravity fails, to me is almost as good as normancer at times. That's again, the ready player one thing is killing me. I know, right? And then here. Island is killing. Hold on. Number 20 is islands in the net by Bruce Sterling, which should be way higher on that list. That's the one that he wrote that is like his tent pole novel. Yeah. All tomorrow's parties is number 22. What's wrong with them? All right. So and here's the thing. I'm not saying that any of these books are bad. I'm saying that in the realm of a, if someone asked you, you know, what is cyberpunk, those some of those books are not the ones that would come out. Now you can look at the list because once you go beyond 20, it gets a bit insulting. Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, Wikipedia only has like 30 entries. So yeah, it's going to get, it's going to get thrown. No random house, random house has a, this is where you know what the genre is dead. So you want to read cyberpunk? Here is where to start. Ooh. And their number one is altered carbon. I have less of a problem with that than you do. Oh, because only because it was number three on that list. I'm not saying I would tell anybody to start with altered carbon. However, when you are talking about a genre that now includes ready player one is a cyberpunk book. So before anybody says no, it is, yes, it is. I agree. It is. But it absolutely should not be cracking anyone's top 30. Yeah, because honestly, ready player one feels to me like somebody who grew up reading all the same sort of novels I did and then said, Hey, I want to write something that's an homage to essentially a cyberpunk in the movies of my youth. And Comey in his name of the album, that is the incomium of cyberpunk. It's a cover. It's a cover band. It's a cover album. Okay, that's all it is. So what I'm saying is we have to reframe our perception to now include the fact that ready player one is a consideration as a cyberpunk book. And I'd rather you start with altered carbon than fucking ready player one. Oh, Jesus. Listen, listen to this though. This is something I didn't know about. So has this the guy who wrote the three body problem. I cannot pronounce. Oh, I have an idea. It's a Chinese name. Oh, yeah. C.I.X. I.N. L.I.U. She something. Sure. His debut novel was a cyberpunk masterpiece. It's also a bit a bit apocryphal since it never made it to print. That doesn't mean you can't read it. The digital versions are floating around the internet. I've heard it. Written in 1989, it paints a critical portrait of Mao's China, complete with high tech and low lives. Gee, I wonder why it never made it to print. Yeah. Now I need to find that. Yeah. No, it's around. I've never read it. This is an interest. So this is a website called book riot and they have their list of best cyberpunk novels. I don't think they're in any particular order. What's the name of the book? The unpublished book. What's it called? It's called China 2185. Hold on that. But like there's some good ones on here that I think get overlooked, like the girl who was unplugged. I'm sorry, the girl who was plugged in by Alice Sheldon. That's a really good novel. That feels very snow, very snow, crash, very, um, sorry, sinners by Pat Caddigan. Pat Caddigan is a great, cyberpunk author that you don't hear a lot about. Like they get kind of pushed to the back a little bit. Um, oh, I've never read this one. I should trouble and her friends by Melissa Scott. Trouble was a name to be feared in cyberspace when the international law shifted. Trouble and her friends went in their separate ways, logging off and finding other lives. But when a mysterious hacker emerges using trouble's moniker, the real trouble dives back in the cyberspace to put a stop to it. That sounds like fun. Yeah. And then yet there's, you know, there's altered carbon, uh, let's see, I've never heard of this one, either info, infomocracy, I've heard of it. I've never read it. I'm going to open this one another. The one that the one that I always hear about and I have to read it at some point, but it's, it's largely dismissed because the technology is so out out and equated to a degree. Is the shockwave rider? Have you ever heard of this one? Oh, no. Okay. Shockwave rider is the gem, oh, but my book, the private eye got here, the graphic novel, the private eye. Ah, that's nice. That's a really good graphic novel. So that's right. Post Cyberpunk. Yeah. Go ahead. Shockwave rider is a kind of a mix of God. What is the, what's the fill? Okay. Dick one where everybody's identity is shifting. They made the movie. Have a Jesus. Why can't I think of it? Oh, I'm scared. Darkly. Scanner darkly. Yes. Okay. So it's the idea of shifting identities. Constantly. But all of it is based around telephones. So the main character is a hacker and he has to keep dialing in to change his identity, which is completely ridiculous now because phones are like God. But this is like 1984, you know, the technology of 1984 is quite, it's the message of the book that's important. Right. Well, so what it is is it is a, it is a, it was written in the early 70s, I think. So it is a world in which the internet is everywhere, but the internet never moved past the telephone, which is what makes it appealing to me is everything is telephone based. Because in the 70s, that's what I'm sure it would be all fiction. All sci-fi is about now, about the now of the author, we put it like that. Yeah. Right. And what, what hopes and dreams are what fears they have, but it's always anchored in the time of the author. Yes. But also interestingly. What you're, what you're, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. 70s. I know it's in the 70s. I think it's the only 70s. Tell Ray book. So you know, those are, it's going to be fun. But the other thing is I know there's a major plot point where there was a huge earthquake that devastated San Francisco. So I went, whoa, there's a Gibson connect. I mean, I'm not saying copied it, but I'm like, oh, there's like parallels. I'd be curious. No, but a lot of people, a lot of people are waiting for San Francisco to go underground. I was going to say, and it's not like nobody's been predicting it. The big one for, you know, 50, 100 years, whatever. I mean, there was one. So obviously they think it would happen again. But it, it is. Oh, well, the shockwave router got a science fiction masterworks collection version or whatever. I've heard of it forever. And it's one of those books I keep getting me to get to it. I'm going to have to track myself down a copy of that. That's what I'm saying. It's the idea that sounds so appealing to me. I think I'm going to get, yeah, I think I'm going to pick that one up. Yeah. Yeah. So the science fiction masterworks collection has a lot of really fun books in it. Yeah. There you go. So if you, if you see something and it's like a little, it's a little yellow circle with SF in it and then beyond that says masterworks going down like the side of the cover, give it a read. It'll be fun. It might not be amazing, but it'll be fun because yeah, I remember when they started doing those. Like the boom on those. Was that? Yeah. Well, no, rebel moon is not on that list. No, but I'm saying, yeah, I mean, I'll be the best book you ever read in terms of its technical thing. But it'll stay with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Like this doctor book, I don't necessarily like this. This is not one of my favorite doctor books. I'm not reading, but there's concepts he's playing with that I am very fascinated with. And even though I disagree with him on the immortality thing, where it's like, no, it's copies, I do find all of his theories and all of his ideas fascinating. But also, doctor is writing idea books for me. Like I am there for the ideas because his characterization is a bit soft handed. Well, and your idea, the characterization you made about the difference in the government and the corporation's intent is just even if you just hear Gibson talk and you hear doctor talk, it's very obvious why that is. I'm listening to Gibson read his own book, by the way, and actually dead. You know? Oh my God, I had a funny thing happen. So so when he, when you, if you, you should definitely listen to the Gibson version of Norman's, but he reads just at least find the sections with the Dixie flat line because the voice modulator they put on Gibson to make him sound like this kind of digital, digital dead person is so perfect for that character. Like I will, that they should use for everything. Right. Right. So for my, my kids are getting ready for Halloween and they bought a bunch of like costume stuff and my son got a voice modulator. And he, he was screw with it. I heard him in the other room and I was like, why am I hearing the Dixie flat line? Oh, you must run the show. At some point. What's that? You have to use some of the show. Oh, I checked. He doesn't run it up over to me. Yeah. He got the Dixie flat line thing and I was like, oh my God, this is a good thing. And I, I, I put up to my mouth and I started doing lines. Oh, please have it run it to you. I'll wait. Hold on. I will text. I think I worry that we'll create distortion because it's, you know, who cares. Whatever. You've got to get that the, because yeah, there's the, there's that great line where he's like, Hey Dixie, do you know an ROM, ROM, personality construct is he's like, sure, farewell construct. And he's like, yeah, okay, Dixie, you are. That's right. Computer chips. Let me tell you about him. Yeah. That's just a, I'm not texting him. Yeah. You know, I want to hear you know, I want to hear you know, I want to hear that. I want to hear that. I know how to find the line from the book. Well, yeah. I mean, you can find that. Oh, we find the line really quick. But yes. Um, he was playing with it and I was like, that's the Dixie flat line. And then I started doing it like I was the Dixie flat line. Yeah, I know. I know. It's terrible. Right. I don't know. You know what? Honestly, I have noticed that's something nobody seems to care about being on, on, on show audio now. I hear it all the time. Nobody cares. I think this just has become used to it or something because nobody seems to care about it. I know. Bring it on over here. Yeah. I will give this back to you tomorrow. Oh, that's awesome. You can say hi, if you want, you can say hi to stranger. Hello, strangers. Thank you. It's very, very good to see you again, old friend. Yeah. Okay. Here we go. I want to see this just shorts everything out. I need to find the kid in the line. I mean, I wouldn't mean too close to the mic at first. I'll tell you if it's horrible. Oh, here we go. I mean, I can always, I can always turn it down. Oh God, I can hear it. Oh my God. Did you hear that? I heard it. Yeah. I'm hearing it. Okay. So yeah, he says, uh, where's the line? I had the line right here. It's going to be great. Go ahead. It's going to destroy the mic. It's going to happen. Go for it. Uh, you know how a ROM personality matrix works? And he says, shit. Shit, shit, bro. It's a firmware called shot. Wow. It's not as bad as I thought it was going to be on the mic. No. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Come on. Show me your dick. Oh. Oh no. I fixed it. He put it on like a weird scream mode. Oh no. Oh no. I fixed it. He put it on like a weird scream mode. There you go. All right. Good. Can you hear it? Oh, that's nice. That's better. That's better. Oh God. Got me. Oh man. I heard that in the other room and I was just like, that's the Dixie flat line. That's like, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love the much. I mean, that's very rough. Like I said, I'm amazed to just blow the mic. No. But that is one of my favorite parts of his audiobook. And that's something that none of the other audio versions have done. They never got that level of like, and I know it's, it's, someone's reading you a book. So you're supposed to just, you know, but for some reason, like, William Gibson as a deadpan digital voice is the Dixie flat line. Yeah. I don't know. I disagree with that. Like I said, they should use, they should just take that audio. And in every audio book, whether it's a different cast or not, that's what they should use. That should always be what delivers the lines. No. I do not disagree even a little bit, but that should always be. Um, yeah. So it's, uh, I, I definitely think that there is a core server. There is a core cyberpunk education. And then you move out from there. And then you read derivative works. You read, you know, edge works. You bring things like that on the periphery of a movement. You know what I mean? Um, but at the end of the day, you know, it's, it's, you want to be entertained. And there's books like, I'm not saying that ready play. Like you said, it's not that ready player one is not cyberpunk. It's that it's derivative cyberpunk. Correct. You know, um, what made cyberpunk cyberpunk to some degree? Was that a lot of these people were creating. Similar works in and around the same time. And the other thing that's baffling about why you would put that. I would, even if I thought that ready player one was a great book. I would not tell somebody to make that one of the first things they read. Because the references are half of what it is. So if you start with that. Yeah. That's so baffling that you would sound by the start now. That would be way down. That's like a greatest hits book. Well, it's, it's like playing Shadowrun and not understanding what cyberpunk is. Sure. Yeah. Because Shadowrun is cyberpunk D&D. That's what it is. Yeah. And I loved it for that. And, and what's hard is that, you know, there's, there was a whole bunch of, um, Shadowrun novels. And they're all gone that you cannot find them. And the thing was, I hate to say this, but they were a lot of fun. I mean, they weren't, they weren't good per se. But they were good in the way that, you know, like watching an action B movie is good. We were like, I know this isn't going to be like the greatest movie I ever watched, but I enjoy this. This isn't hard-boiled, but it's a hell of a good time. Yeah, exactly. But like these shadow, yeah, there you go. There's a few you can still find. Shadowrun, the Terminus Experiment, and there's still a few you can kind of put together. Um, if you like Cyberpunk, read the core stuff and then go for fun. Especially if you like D&D, or if you have like a side thing where you like fantasy like I do. Read Shadowrun. Because it hits this spot that you didn't know you had. Or you've got, you know, Ogres with Onai Sendai Decks and you've got, you know, Orcs and Elves that are jacked into the Matrix and shit like that. It's fucking hilarious. Um, the thing that makes me sad about Gibson, uh, the only thing that makes me sad about Gibson is that because Noramancer set this tone so much of it is about crime. So a lot of the people who are writing derivative works, it was always about corporate crime. And no one really started to get into the more, to experiment with weirder ideas therein, you know what I mean? Like, if you really think about Noramancer as a fascinating book because it's a, it's an AI orchestrating its own breakout, right? But then it gets out. And that to me is like this massively interesting concept that doesn't really get played with. Like, they don't really pop up in the rest of the sprawl trilogy. And the implication is that they kind of leave. Like, they've kind of, I mean, yeah, I think in the end of the rest of this, they say they're communicating with other intelligences and things like that. Yeah, I mean, they sort of make reference to it in count zero, I think. Or one of the, one of the following, they offhandedly mentioned something about, well, yeah, what happened from that? And they're like, oh, the AI's got out and they all got together and they went somewhere or something like that. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, that is so fascinating to me. And that's the thing is that there's, there's so much going on in the realm of Sarapung. And it's, you just wish that someone had written, written a non-crime pace novel, you know what I mean? Like, Snow Crash is great, but Snow Crash to some degree, there's a lot of cool shit going on, but there's a big criminal activity going in the center of it. Well, you know what goes to the show, too, in a sense, kind of did that where it was non-crime, but it was the end. Well, it is a crime. Well, it is a crime because they're using that child and they're using her and they're replicating those. Yeah, it is, but the reality is the other end of it is, yes, the crime is part of it, but it's not all of it. The other end of it is that the major is still watching out for the tone. Yeah, oh, yes, that's the beautiful undertone of it all. That's what I mean, is that this AI did not become Dr. Manhattan and beam out, it still came. I want a cyberpunk first-contact novel where they think they're communicating with alien life, and it's just the AI's having come back. You know what I mean? Well, that's kind of, isn't that Star Trek motion picture? Oh, yeah, you're right. That wasn't really an AI. That was a satellite that got- Yeah, but it became a member? It became sentient, but it wasn't our AI. We didn't make an AI and then send it out. Well, well, depends. Look, wait a minute. Now, this could be an interesting discussion point because- Go ahead. This is when you have a child, a child is not sentient in the way that an adult is. It is alive and it can learn. Well, that's Voyager. Voyager was a simple construct sent out to gather information. Okay. And then it came back to report back to the parents and didn't get an answer. But didn't it get hopped up by some alien life? Well, it had contact, but that's- It had been- I thought it had been upgraded, and that's why it was behaving so radically. I thought that- Well, actually, let's see, because of course the movie doesn't make it entirely clear. So, let's see what the wiki says happen, because I'm actually kind of curious. It's an interesting point. Let's see, okay. Okay, let's get to the point where they actually- Okay, be just revealed to be Voyager 6. A 20th century NASA Space Probe from the Voyager program, it was believed we lost the black hole. The damaged probe was found by an alien race of living machines that interpreted its programming as instructions to learn all that can be learned and return that information. The machines upgraded the probe to fulfill its mission, and on its journey, the probe gathered so much knowledge that it achieved sentience. That's us creating AI. We sent something out that then became- Well, that's us unintentionally creating AI. Well, okay. Yeah, all right. But honestly, to me, there's no difference. We put the building blocks of artificial life in place, knowing Lear, not. And it became what we always think artificial intelligence is supposed to be. And it came back and we encountered it, it was not changed into an organic entity. It still remained itself. They just gave it the ability to be able to gather all this stuff and come back, because it would not have been able to on its own. Well, if you get sick and they have to cut off your hand and you got to get a new hand, that doesn't make you into something else. That means that you've been an upgraded, you know, or whatever. So I would argue that that is an example, not the example you're talking about. I agree, but that actually makes that story- I never thought of it that way, but it kind of makes that story better now today. I like that idea. Well, you know what? Because you're only talking about how a different point of view is- No, my God, here we go. Yeah, you have the floor. I'm going to sit down for that, God. Okay. I'm going to let you talk this one because this is good. All right, so recently I said I was traveling and I visited my favorite tattooist up in Vermont. And I was being heavily tattooed over a couple of days. And my tattooist is a big nerd, like me, and we watch a lot of movies when we're doing stuff. And so we watched Superman II and Superman III, right? Now, we're watching Superman II, and we've got commentary going back and forth, because both of us, my tattoos tonight, we both love Christopher Reeve, right? And we're both not a big fan of man and steel. And we both like what's his name, Brandon Ruth, because he tried to channel Christopher Reeve. But in the end, Superman Returns is a derivative movie in the same way that Ready Player One is a derivative book, right? They love the original Christopher Reeve Superman. They wanted to try and channel it, but, you know, it's not quite right, right? Plus, Lex Luthor is still just going on about property. You know, I never made that connection, but, like, in Superman I, it's about property, and then in the Superman Returns, like, the new Lex Luthor, it's still all about property, right? It's funny. So, we're sitting there watching the movie, and Superman II, you know, Zod and Zora, and I can never remember the big guy's name. Oh, yeah, what is the big guy's name? What is the big guy's name? He's just the big guy. Anyway, the three Kryptonians show up, right? And they, you know, they get to earth, and they start fucking shit up, and all this stuff's going on. And one of the things I really always liked about the difference between man steel and Superman, and it's something that Joe brought up that I mentioned that I was going to talk about, something like this, that Superman, the Zod realizes that Superman wants to protect the people, right? Because they start destroying the city, and Superman is trying to save them, and they realize that it's his weakness, and that is why Superman flees, because he's trying to draw them away from the populated area, right? Whereas in man steel, I mean, they were just fucking plowing to the city at that point, and you never really get a sense from man steel that that Cabell Superman is desperately trying to get Zod out of the city like he is. I'm not saying that I don't think that Cabell Superman cares about people. I think he does, but it's a different personality, right? But then there was kind of this weird moment for me, because we got, we get to the end of the movie, and they're in the, the tower of solitude, the fortress of solitude, Superman's swanky ice palace, and Superman pulls that trick where he tells Lex Luthor, get him in that, you know, and get him in the pod thing, and, and Luther double crosses him, which Superman knew he would, and Superman gets in the pod, and then they turn the machine on, and it renders the other Kryptonians in their room powerless, right? Turns essentially into humans. Now, every time I've watched this movie, I have kind of glossed over this, and I don't know if it was because I was in a fascinating amount of pain at the time, that I noticed this, but that if we're going by what is in a movie, and not by what may have happened afterwards, or other explanations we can come up with, once Superman realizes that Zod is human, he then picks him up and throws him into an ice ravine, thus killing him, right? At which point, the big guy tries to fly, trips and falls into a ravine, also most likely to his death, and, uh, what's her name, the reporter, Jesus, what's her name? Lois Lane. Lois Lane, Lois Lane, then Elbow Zora, and knocks her off into another ice ravine, killing her, and Superman chuckles. Now, I don't, my wife is saying to me, this was a funny exercise in memory, because, like, she was like, do you just not remember? And I'm like, you know what? I don't think I did. I think I watched it, and to me, these movies were so light-hearted to some extent. I mean, there's, I mean, I think you were saying that in Superman 3, there's a thing where Superman starts to go crazy, and he's shooting the peanuts at the window, and they kind of glossed over the fact that, you know, a mad Superman could really just destroy the world, which is kind of like, uh, the boys, or, you know, what was it, the Supreme? No, uh, no, uh, the powers, powers, that, that's... Power in power, yeah. Remember that thing where Superman goes crazy, and he's basically got... Yeah, there was a man with a woman making up in the stars, like, hey, you want to fuck? Yeah, it's that fear... Oh, this is gonna be a rape, isn't it? Yeah, of what happened, right? And they gloss over it, because then, you know, he fights himself in a junkyard, and he, the good one, comes back, right? But it's, it's, they, they always... Approached heavy topics, and then quickly went for the family direction, right? 'Cause they wanted to rent the family movies, and well, they should. I love, I love the Superman movies, except for, you know, the Solar Mandalone, 'cause that one's a bit crap. But the fact that Lois Lane kills Zora, and then he chuckles. And I'm like, wait a minute. I was like, he just, he just murdered General Zod, and didn't bat an eyelash. Whereas I'm pissed off at Man of Steel, because he breaks, he breaks the General Zod's neck. And the thing is, right, I went back and watched that scene, 'cause now I was like, wait a minute, am I remembering stuff weird? And I went back and I watched that scene, and Jit, and Henry Cavill, who I do like as Superman. I've realized this, because I think I like the actor. I said the same thing, this is not Cavill's fault, he would have made an excellent Superman, the better than him. He, yeah, he does communicate a sense of agony with the fact that he can't stop Zod. And it's like he doesn't want to kill him, right? But he can't stop him, so he finally does kill him. And I was like, weird, it's weird that there's more agony in that scene, than Christopher Reeve killing Zod, and then chuckling about Zora's death. And I was like, whoa! And I realized in that moment that I let Man of Steel offer that. Now there's, I'm not saying that Man of Steel is a good movie, there's a lot about that movie I disagree with, especially, you cannot fix that whole paw-cant thing, because it's a completely different lesson. We're like, Cavill's paw-cant is like, don't let him know you're an alien, I'll die for that secret. You know, you should all let those people die, keep your secrets at the grave. Whereas in the Christopher Reeve Superman, it's like, hey, you can't save everybody. Sometimes bad shit just happens. You know, you're not, you're not a god, right? It's an important lesson for him to learn. So, I'm not saying that Man of Steel is off the hook, and that's something I love it. I'm just saying that one of the things that really irked me about Man of Steel, I have now let go, because I don't remember Christopher Reeve killing Zod quite that effortlessly, and then laughing about the death of Zora. And if you really think about it, Lois Lane and Superman just brutally killed two people, and they were like, hey, it's time to hug and make up, right? And I do find that to be, it's not something I remember it, even watching it as a kid, I don't think it ever occurred to me, because I think in my mind, I was like, I always thought, well, you know, surely, you know, it's Superman's palace, so they've slid into, you know, yeah. I will interject now. No, go ahead, yeah. So, you brought this up to me, so everybody has some background. You brought this up to me last night as we were playing Duke. Yeah, I didn't mention specifically what the Superman II bothered me. I had a hunch, yeah. That this is exactly where you were going. Yeah. And this is the thing. Well, you and I, you are now on a similar track. We are, we are, because I said, I couldn't remember the second thing, you immediately said, oh, then he killed Zod, and that told me right away where you were going to go with this. And here is the thing about Superman II. Yeah. I saw Superman II more times on television than I ever saw it in the movies. Oh, is it, is it different? It is. You see them alive. They don't die. No. That was the, yes, Donner's original ending showed an arresting scene of Lex Luthor, and in the background, all three Phantom Zone villains are alive. Hold on. Hold on. I'm looking for it now. That's fascinating. Is there a rest of it as well, which is hysterical. That says something about Donner. See, and this is the problem is now they've left it that it's not there. And of course, Donner got fired off of Superman II. They redid a bunch of stuff, so Superman II was in many ways a mess. But yes, you will find the original shot ending that was aired. Therefore, it's not supposed to be. Yeah, there's snow police. Okay. Yeah. Look for them. They're there. I mean, they don't make it, I would say the most prominent thing in the world, but they are in fact. Oh, yeah. They're in the background. There they are. Holy shit. And that's why I said you're never going to change my mind on this because I knew. Wow. Yeah. So, had that scene only been in extras? I've never, I've never heard of this scene. As far as I know, it was only ever on television versions because on television, they often extended it, but it was Donner's footage. And my understanding is that was the original plan until he got fired and it was handed to somebody else. Oh, yeah. Oh, man, that brings that brings up so many other questions, which is that like, why, why remove that? Because why make him a murderer? Well, because a different director took over because they got into a fight with Donner and they changed a lot of things. So Donner, in fact, put the, and honestly, this is not really a better ending because a lot of people are like, wait a minute, why is Superman suddenly able to erase her memory with a kiss? Because that's not one of his powers. So what Donner did is they reuse in his version him flying around the planet and reversing things so she never finds out. Which isn't really better. That's got some holes. It's got a lot of holes, but it's more consistent with his power set than erasing memory kisses, which he never had. So, yeah, it's, here it is. Yeah, I was going to say IMDB, I was looking in the wrong, I was looking in, what do you call it, the accidents. But in fact, it's alternate connections here is ABC television version contained 17 minutes of footage that had been cut from the theatrical release. Much of it, the remnants of Richard Donner's scenes that he shot before Richard Lester became director. Right, the, the alter ending, there it is. There's a number of other things, which I remembered and that, and this is the thing is, for a long time, I didn't realize there were different versions on television and stuff. So I thought that I was misremembering things. No, in fact, those scenes exist and they were shown. Yeah, no, no, this is like, this is like the thing to do and we're like, I'd see the TV versions of them be confused because they weren't in the movie. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I did not realize I did this for Superman too. Because I remembered Superman too, there's a part where he cooks something with his heat vision. And it's not in the theatrical version, I was like, how am I thinking that he's cooking her food with his heat vision and it's not there? Because it was in the TV version. I'm genuinely shocked, I'll tell you that, because it, yes, it, because it is weird that the other director then turned Superman into a murderer. And that, that is the version that I think most people will see. Yes. Whereas Richard Donner, who obviously had a better sense of the character, just had them be arrested. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. That's, honestly, and like, it really screws me up now, because I'm kind of like, wow, like, that's. Yeah. So, one possibility is you actually didn't see that version, it just kind of repressed it or whatever, but your conscience is clean. No, I have never, I'm, I'm so shocked by this. I mean, it's not a very good sequence. I'll give you that somehow the ice police are there and, and yeah. The movie has holes. The movie has holes. The movie has holes. I'm not going to tell you. Oh, yeah. And honestly, the whole time travel solution for his identity, that doesn't really work either. But it's better than super kisses. I'll give them that. Yeah. I mean, but you know what, quick question. Why did Doctor Who suddenly have the ability to wipe people's memory? Was that? Oh, I don't remember that in old who. I feel like that's a new who thing. No, I don't. I mean, okay. To be clear. Yeah. I have not watched the entirety of pre, I guess, 90s or two. But like, I don't remember there being anything like that until tenet. No, there's, there's nothing that I'm aware of. I mean, mind erasure technology existed in old ways. Oh, exist, but not the way he did it. Yeah. Not that I remember. Face and. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's. Yeah. But that said, yes, I did not know that scene existed. So that is very fascinating to me now because we've got the original director who wanted Superman to remain murderless. Yes. We have the new director who was brought on who decided to not only make him a murderer, but make him like a cold murderer because it's not just, it's not just that he immediately in that version kills zod, right? It's that he kills zod. And when Lois Lane kills Zora, he goes, ha, ha, ha, like he, he laughs about it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you're like, whoa, and like, I don't know why my brain never saw that before, but this time I saw that and I was like, wait a minute, that's kind of fucked up. But that would make sense because if he knew they were basically hitting a nice slide. Yeah, they basically were, they were sliding into something, something that he had and you could go get them. And that's why he left. He left because he was like, yeah, yeah, we beat them. Exactly. So, but I agree. If you didn't, and this, and this, and this came up. That's so fucked up. Isn't it? When that the. When man. Why? Why would they do that? I remember people making this argument and people who remembered the alternate version were like, no, no, no, no. Because it aired because there, there is a correct. No, it was a. If you, if you look up, I looked up Superman to zod arrest. The scene pops right up on YouTube. No, but in other words, if it had been in a rate deleted scene only. Yeah. Well, then it's a different argument because it was never shown. Yeah, but that version exists on network television. And it makes sense now that he would laugh. Whereas you're right. Otherwise he comes off like some kind of super powered sociopath. Yeah, and that, and that is in that moment. There's a, there's, and that thing is we went right into Superman three after that where he does become a super powered sociopath. Which is great. Which is great. Right. Right. Whereas in Man of Steel, when he does kill zod. Right. There is a genuine sense of anguish. Oh, no, there is. There is. But you have to sit there and go, well, okay, then why not just break his back so that you can just stop him from doing it. Like just. Well, here's a, here's a weird biological Kryptonian question. Yeah. Like so Kryptonian's back. Can't they still fly around? Ooh. I don't actually know how their flight works. Yeah. Like it used to be the Superman jumping. You know what then? You know what then? Super powered Stooges move and just stab his eyes out. He'll still be alive. Just fucking do the goddamn curly and knock his eyes out. Just cough, just carve him out. No, just take literally go there. The Stooges thing. Would that be worse? Would that be worse if at the end of that movie he just pops onto his eyes out? Uh. Yes. So they were just hanging there shooting downwards of his nuts? And he's like, I can't see anything. And he's like shooting his own feet with his eye blast because his eye sockets are, his eyeballs are hanging from his eye. Yeah. Cause another thing I thought of is, okay. Couldn't he have just covered his eyes and that would have stopped it long enough that he could have done something? He could have put his hand over it. Or do the eye beams hurt him as well? Well, so what? He's Superman. He should hurt before others. Yeah, that's true. You know. Listen, I never liked the Zod Death thing. Let's be very clear about that. There's no defending it. But when you see the sociopath version of Superman II, it does make Man of Steel look less sociopath than at least he struggled with it. I also genuinely wonder whether Zack Snyder wanted him to be agonized when he killed Zod. Cause Zack Snyder is into the whole corrupted ghost thing. Oh, yeah, he want, yeah, cause I remember there was a, I remember reading a discussion about how Nolan disagreed and Nolan felt Superman wouldn't do that. No, no, but did Zack Snyder want him to be more angry as opposed to anguished? I don't know that. I don't that. I do know that in the end, I know Nolan basically said, you know, I'll let Snyder make the decision. Oh, no, that part I knew. But I wonder if Zack Snyder's original idea was, no, you should just be angry and somebody's like, okay, if you do that, they're going to hate him as much as Zod. You have to make him see what you want to do. Yeah, you can't be like, I'm going to kill you. Yeah, fine. I'll make him feel like it's bad. I guess. God, you guys don't understand how corrupted gods were. Do you? Yeah. Of course, what do I know? Oh, and listen, it's, it's how the narrative feels to you, isn't it? It is. And for me, and for me, the Superman II sociopath chuckle is kind of chilling. It is. I realize, and then I realize, oh, no, it's just because you, it's a shit director, did a fuck, a fucked up cut. And the scene is out there because the original director was like, guys, Superman is an sociopath. Right. Again, again, I will point out that when, even just in the movie, it doesn't make sense because like, he picked, they pick up a bus and his immediate terror is- The people, yeah, he's just the people, yeah. Right. So this is not a character who would take joy in anyone's death. No, and then he chuckles. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if it was that, he would have killed Lex Luthor for inadvertently killing Lois Lane, even though he reversed, and he'd be like, you killed her. You know, if he was that kind of guy, then Lex Luthor would have- Oh, he would have killed Lex Luthor in space. He would have killed Lex Luthor a while ago. No kidding. Listen, he could kick, as you've said, he could kick Lex Luthor in the space and know whatever find the body. Right. If you really think of that, Superman could take a lot of people out before anyone started to really ask any questions. He could do it so fast, nobody would ever know. Yeah, so could the Flash. You know what I mean? Yeah, of course. That's the problem with these characters, if they go crazy. Yeah, and that's why Batman built a super mech suit. You understand it. Which I still think is very silly, but you know, it does make sense that the most paranoid person was stopped and go, wait a minute. What if my friend's my super powered friend's weight? Well, he clearly watched Superman 3 and went, oh man, I don't want to see this guy in a bar. Mmm. You know? No, it makes sense. Oh, man. Yeah, so, well, I'm glad. I'm glad that you both confused me and cleared that up for me in a weird way. Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, to enclosing. The version that most people will see as Superman 2 is the sociopath edition, whereas you have to go to broadcast TV to find the non-sociopath edition. Well, the odd thing is, as far-- actually, hold on a minute, I want to see, because I own-- I'm trying to remember if Donner put that scene back into his director's cut of Superman 2. Let me see. Yeah, we watched the-- was it the-- Yeah, he watched the theatrical one, I'm sure. Yeah, the prime version. Yeah. Let me see. Okay, moving right here. That's the ending. Both movies. Okay. Oh, that's how they escape. Okay. Gives up his powers. Final showdown. Here it is. Okay. That magic kiss is gone. I knew that part. Yeah. Let me see here. Even Zen's minions return. Oh, that's right. He puts them back into the Phantom Zone. That's right. You know what? I have to re-watch the Donner Cut, because yeah, he puts them back into the Phantom Zone. I don't remember how he did it though, because I watched it a while ago. Yeah, so instead of showing that, they go back into the Phantom Zone somehow. That's right. I remember, because they reused that mirror shot. Yeah. I mean, none of these versions are perfect, but-- No, of course not. It's still that they don't die. So, yeah. Well, listen, it's not that they don't die. I don't have a problem with General Zoden as people dying. It's the fact that Superman doesn't kill them. Like-- No, no, actually, I do have a problem with it, because that's not what that Superman-- The Superman they were doing in those movies was the comic version who doesn't kill people. And I know that's--some people say what I saw on the-- I know, but what I'm saying is, if they had died by some of their means, like, you know, if they'd kill him and kill each other or something like that, I don't have a problem with them dying. Right. It's that he can't kill them. Right. Well, that's what I'm saying is, yes. So, because he wasn't allowed to reshoot footage. He had to take what they already had. He did not complete the movie. So, they never shot footage of them killing themselves. So, that's the thing is, at least he still preserved the idea of the not dying, because you still have to have that ending confrontation. That all still has to be there for them to be captured again. So, it's--the important thing is he didn't still have them dying by, as you said, a sociopathic Superman going, "Ha ha, you sure killed her good." You know, yeah, that's gone. So, yeah. Well, yeah, there you go. The man still sucks. I would not have--I did not expect that to go that way. Well, you wouldn't, because they never--as far as I know, it was only ever shown on TV that way. It was never in the theaters, and even Donner didn't put it back into his cut. The Phantom Zone thing. I could--the three hour TV version, that's what it is. Most movies got that, like, Dune, most of the extended footage is for the TV version, all that stuff. That's very, very common, because the commercials are in there, and a lot of times they wanted to do it over a two-part. So, you had to kind of extend it to fill that. Ironically, you had to make the movie longer, or it would be too short because of the commercials, which is strange, but that's how they did it a lot of times. It's weird. Plus, you know what? I realize I'm a little on the fence about the dinner revenge scene in "Superman 2." The dinner revenge--oh, oh, at the diner, diner revenge. You guys back to the diner? Yeah. Look, it's just a little part of me that's like, "I don't know if you would do that." I think--don't get me wrong, I agree. That is the closest it comes to crossing into a little bit of a grey, morality area, but the way he was kind of treating everybody, you have to assume that he-- I always thought, "Okay, this is a guy that slaps women around." And that's just the--that's-- Oh, yeah. Superman's basically showing him that, "Hey, watch it." Because you never know when somebody might come back that you beat up and fuck you up to win an inch of your life. Which is not a bad lesson for bullies to have, is be careful who the fuck-- I don't know if that's how he would have phrased it, but yes. No, he would have said, "What goes around comes around." See you later, citizen, and then fly off. [laughter] But you bet you're right, it's borderline. That is the meanest Superman ever feels when he's not evil, you know, peanut flicking Superman. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just can't believe that they would cut that. Crazy, right? Yeah, it just feels-- It just shows you how easy one person's choices can completely change the vision of a character. Oh, yeah? That's why directors get really pissed off when their movies get taken away from them. I mean, Terry Gillian, a perfect example. Look what they did to his movie. Look what they did to the Blade Runner. Oh, yeah. Right? So it happens a lot more. And these are the things we know about. Who's to say what happens that we never heard about? So. Yo, yeah, the stuff that never makes it to-- Right. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, there you go. Well, that's all I've got for you, sir. Well, I have a delightful surprise in that this is a movie that, by all appearances, look like a-- just a run-of-the-mill basic rip-off film where a foreign movie was taking American stuff and just trying to re-combobulate it into a cash-in, and it's a lot better than that. Now, this is a Mexican slasher film called Hell's Trap. I'm not going to bother trying to do the Spanish version. You can probably do it better than me. What year is it? 1989. Hell's Trap. Hell Apostrophe S Trap. 1989. There you go. See? You can do it. I can't. Oh. That's almost Italian. Come on. Well, it almost is, but I can't roll ours and stuff, so. Now, when you look at that cover, what-- Yeah, look at the cover. Whoa. Whoa. What do you think this movie is? I see the robot woman from Superman 3. All right. Well, assume that it's a mask and not a robot. It's like a weird robot with razor hand things. Okay. So, seeing the hands, what would that remind you of for American horror films? Like, who's got a glove with it? Oh, Freddy Krueger. Right. And then the mask, well, we have American slasher who has a mask, right? So, that would be Friday 13th. So, looking at it and reading it, it sounds like okay. Oh, wait. Is that supposed to be a mask? Yes. It looks like somebody made a long shot mask in the movie. I swear. It looks like long shot. Interesting. Because it's blonde hair and this very stern, just like straightforward face or Halloween. I mean, it does have a Halloween thing except with blonde hair. It is actually very effective in the movie. Oh, yeah. It's actually terrifying. It's actually terrifying. I'm looking at it right now. It always has this kind of black-eyed series of concentration, yeah. It's strange because on the poster looks silly. But then when you see it in motion, it looks good. The whole movie is way better than you would think reading that. It's kind of the Michael Myers thing. It's like it's just a George Lucas. It's Shatner mask. Yes. Yes. Very much like that. But when you see it in movement, yeah, it's quite frightening. Yes. It's great. I actually hoped that you would never have him take it off. Unfortunately, he does. And it's underwhelming. So, I wish they just made it back. He's got like a whole scarred up looking face. Yeah. I mean, you only see it for one second, but still it would have been better if they just left it on. So, movie starts out and we're immediately thrown into a guy walking around with God. But does he have a Freddy Krueger glove? He does, but it's not. It's a strange glove because it's actually far more functional looking and in use than you would think because there's a part where he grabs a tree with it and the hooks go around the tree so it's almost like a climbing glove because it's got these barbs. It's interesting. And when he grabs the tree, they wrap around the tree and I went, is that? Because they never really show him doing that, but I almost thought this is something to let him grapple. Like to move up. Yeah, yeah. Difficult surfaces. So, I actually like it better even though when he, I mean, he slashes throat with it with even there though it wraps around the throat. So, it's almost like a better way to kill somebody because you just roll your hand around their throat and the barbs just tear their throat open. It's almost like it's a well engineered murder weapon compared to, say, even Freddy Krueger's gloves, which are just stabbing knives. But, you know, when Freddy Krueger puts his gloves flat, the blades go straight out. Like they don't curve. Whereas this thing curves, so it's made to kill people. And also, like a bear, climb things. It's the most fascinating, weird murder weapon I've ever seen because it does feel like this is based on something real. Like maybe something that climbers or somebody uses because it looks so utilitarian in the movie. It's so bizarre. This movie surprised me in lots of ways. So, movie starts out, right? And it's two guys. You see this guy with a gun and you have no idea what's going on. There's no preamble to this. There's no setup. You're just throwing immediately into this guy walking around with a gun. And then you see a second guy with a gun, and it's almost like a Mexican Miami Vice episode where it's two guys at the end trying to kill each other. So, the one guy gets to drop on the other, shoots him like three times, and then goes over to the body, and then you see when it looks down, it's paintballs. They are having a paintball competition. So, it's basically setting up that these two guys, whose names are Nacho and Maurice, they are sort of quasi-friendly, but not really rivals who are very competitive with each other. And this is just their latest thing where they bet on something, and then whoever wins wins and whoever loses loses. But this is something that's been going on for a while. You immediately get that. Because then they get into a fist fight when, I don't remember why, but they start fighting each other, and you find out, okay, these are not buddies that are having these competitions. These are like two guys who constantly bet on each other and are sort of somewhat respectful of each other, but don't like each other. You know what I mean? They're those type of guys. So, that establishes that right away. Then we cut to a bar, and in the bar, we're introduced to the main characters for the whole movie, which is seven characters. Maurice and Javier are, well, they start out as friends, but you get the idea that Javier doesn't really like Maurice either, that he's just hanging around him because he's talented or something. And then they're two girlfriends whose names, I don't even know if they get names, but they're the four that are on the, I don't know if they do. -Girlfriend number one. -Well, I mean, they have personalities, but I don't remember them ever calling them by their names. I don't remember to be honest. So they're on the, what we would call the one rival side is those four. And on the other, our nacho, his best friend, Charlie, who's a rather portly fellow, but nice enough. And then his girlfriend, Alejandro, who is easily my favorite fucking character in this movie. Alejandro is amazing. She is a take no bullshit, like she punches more people in this movie than anybody else. She punches men, she punches women if they even slightly insult it, yes. -I just showed my kids Gremlin for the first time. -Yeah. -And I always forget that Billy's mom, Billy's mom kills like most of the Gremlin. -He kills like five of them, yeah, in the kitchen. And then it's the fact that Billy can't catch Stripe that what causes the rest of the movie to happen. -That's right. -But Billy's mom, like she fucking puts one in the blender, she puts one in the, she stabs one to death, she puts the other one in the microwave. -She fucking... -Oh, yeah. -Normally that is a role that is a victim. -Yes. And that's the same thing in here. Is Alejandro in a lesser film would have been either a, like the second to last person killed or a rape victim, which I kept dreading that the rape thing was going to happen. It never does. I was so happy that she never got raped, which is, it's fucking amazing I have to say that, but movies like this, it's a common thing. -It is a horror movie. -Well, here's the thing. No nudity, which is amazing for '89. And no rape or really any victimization outside of the two other women get killed, but there's nothing perverse to it. It's very, very clinical. -It's just straight all American murder. -Well, yeah, because the guy is just, he is just completely off his rocker and he thinks he's still like in Vietnam. That's what it is. He thinks he's in a war all the time. So that's jumping ahead a bit. So we're in this bar and Alejandro is like, is the murderer American? Well, his name's Jesse. I think they do say he's American. Well, in the clip we'll find out. I don't remember if they specify or not, but they say he was a guy who never got over the war that he was in. But anyway, so we're at the beginning here. We're in the bar and Alejandro is like, "You know what? I think this should be the last bet you have with Maurice. Just be done with it." And not just like, "Yeah, you know, I'm getting sick of it. It's just, there's never going to be an end to this and I don't feel like doing this anymore." And so Alejandro is happy because she thinks that that's going to be it. But of course Maurice has the idea that there's going to be one more bet. So this is Maurice's, well, this Javier starts out this, but then we're going to have Maurice come into it where he's going to explain the one final bet, the big last bet. So this is, this is in the bar. It's going to start with Javier basically being like, "Hey, natural." Listen, Maurice wants to talk to you. There's just one more thing. So let me play this. [coughing] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [music playing] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [laughing] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [clearing throat] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] [speaking Spanish] So as you said, the idea here is, I'm living in Spanish. I don't care. You can explain it. I'll let you do it. That's exactly why I didn't tell you. I didn't tell anybody. I just loved it. So basically what it is, his girlfriend doesn't want him to get any more of these bets because he thinks it's the waste of time. And the friend, basically, really wants to really wants a chance at showing that he's the big man in town. And there are reports of several hunters having died pursuing this bear. That's what they think it is because of the way they died it sounds like. And so the girlfriend tries to get in the way and the other guy's girlfriend is like, she basically says, you know, who wears the pants in this relationship? Yeah, he doesn't have the pants, essentially. And then he finally is like, fine. He's like, you know, I'll do it. He's like, but this is the last bet, right? But the thing is, are they supposed to be friends? Because they don't sound like friends. Well, that's what I'm saying. I think they're supposed to be more of just kind of macho rivals than anything. Okay, yeah, because they don't sound friendly. Obviously, they obviously know each other, but they don't sound like friends. Well, see, and this is where, because it's in Spanish, I'm seeing the translation, but obviously there's things I'm missing that you're going to pick up because you speak this language more naturally than certainly I do. So there may be, like, I never got the idea, and that's what I was saying at the beginning. I don't think they're friendly, but they have a history of doing these bets. But he keeps taking these bets, and his girlfriend is giving him shit, because she's like, why are you wasting your time? Yes. So basically, the catch here is that they think it's a bear. Right. So there's a newspaper clipping that says, oh, there's been a slaughter, and this place that they're going to go to, and he's like, all right, this is the last bet, we're going to go up here, and we'll see who can kill the bear. And as you said, this, and this is a, there's a similar plot device, not exactly the same in Friday, the 13th, where when they get to this place, Fido del Cabayo, I'm probably destroying that. Fido del Cabayo? Yes, that place. When they get there, they find an old man in this rundown van who's selling, like, weapons and different little trinkets, and he says, oh, where are you kids off to? And they're like, oh, we're going to this place to hunt this bear, and he's like, whoa, he's like, don't go up there. He's like, that's not a bear. These people are crazy, that's not a bear. And Nacho starts to say to him, well, what do you mean it's not a bear? And Maurice cuts him off and says, don't listen to this guy, he's nuts. Come on, we'll get up there, we have everything we need, let's just go. And there's a similar type of thing in Friday, the 13th, when these kids come into town, they're like, oh, we're going up to Camp Crystal Lake, Crystal Lake, which used to be called Camp Look. Don't go to Camp Crystal Lake. And there's an old man who's like, what do you kid, you don't know what's up there, there's somebody evil up there, it's the same type of thing. So there are definitely similarities in these movies, but like I said, they're heading up there, they're in separate cars, and the thing is, the thing I liked most about this movie that immediately they did really well was they establish Nacho, Alejandra, and Charlie as people you really like. They all have these really good personalities, they come across as very natural, realistic friends. Alejandra's awesome because even in that scene where the girl says what, he doesn't wear pants, she gets up and she gets ready to punch her, and not just like, no, let's not start a fight. Alejandra takes no shit, like I said, she belts everybody in this movie virtually, and not subtly slaps them, close fist across the face knocking people down when they even slightly say anything insulting or that she doesn't like. In fact, you're going to hear in a clip where she's going to like, hey, if you know what's good for you, ask them what happens when I get pissed off, and you'll be happier and better off, which that clip's coming. She's fucking, I fucking love her, and that's why I was like, oh God, please don't let her become a sex victim in this thing because I just wanted to get her. Did you watch this? Did you watch so with subtitles? Yeah, I watched with subtitles, yeah, yeah, I would have understood. Well, I probably would have understood enough. I'm just curious. Yeah. I had the subtitles, you want them? No, no, no, it's not that. I know it's being said. Yeah. But a large portion of our listeners will not. I'm just curious why you're playing the dialogue if you yourself do not know. Well, because I kind of like the idea that, you know what, run it through a translator or watch the movie because I don't know, because I like the idea of hearing, okay, if the movie wasn't good, I wouldn't care and I wouldn't even bother. But I feel like these people deserve to be heard in their original performances because I like that. Well, I don't have a problem with it. I know what's going on. Yeah. Well, I have those flips. If people want them, I can send it to them. But there's so many translators now that you can literally hold your phone up to it, it's going to tell you. Plus, I don't know that the translation is exactly right because I don't know who did it. Maybe it is literally right because the part where the one girl says that the actual subtitle says, "Doesn't he wear pants? Is that what she actually said? Does he wear pants?" Yeah, essentially, yeah. He doesn't have the pants to do it, essentially. See, that's not the reason. You're hearing, if you get a technical translation of it, it won't make any sense, right? But essentially that line that she's saying, you know, she is literally saying, well, he doesn't have the pants, right? It's kind of like, you know, he doesn't have the balls, he doesn't make his own decision. I mean, you'll figure that out, but basically the little translation is what he doesn't wear pants, and that's all it says. So I know what that means. Most people are going to know what that means. But no, I just kind of like the idea of hearing it. I know that. I was just curious at all. Yeah, just because, like I said, I actually kind of respect this movie more than I do a lot of other movies of this type because I really like the three main characters in particular. And so I'd like to hear them in their original thing, even though, yeah, sorry, if you don't speak Spanish, you're going to have to look up what it means. And also the music sounds vaguely John Carpenter-ish. Yeah, the soundtrack is interesting. It's good. It doesn't always fit what's on the screen, but I like it. It just at times is kind of like, oh, this is a little more jaunty than a murder scene should be, but that's okay. Kind of. Yeah, sort of. Or the what do you call it? The we shot music that we listen to. So they get up to the mountains or wherever the area where the motors have. They're going to camp out on the beach. And so they're going to start to go off in the woods and hunt. So everybody except for the two girlfriends. Javier and Marisa's girlfriends stay behind the beach to basically someday. Now, and that's where I was like, okay, this is going to be new to some bathing, but is it? They just wear swimsuits. So again, I was that was the first surprise. I'm like, oh, no blatant nudity. I for an 89 slasher. Okay. So then we see the killer. They don't really hide him. They're like, what kind of trashy movie do you think you're watching? No, this movie continually impressed me as it went along. I mean, it really did. But I was already in about 50 minutes in once I saw Nacho Alejandro and Charlie interacting and I really liked them. And wanted them all to live, which is also something I don't normally have with these time moves like, okay, I'll kill them all. I want to see how you explode them. Fine, go for it. But no, I wanted them all to live. And so the other ones, I didn't want to die necessarily, but they were definitely the more classic kind of, you know, Marisa comes off as an ego maniacal. And that's what he is, very dismissive of women, of everybody else. He's the top guy. You know, like he said, he's the big man who's going to hunt down the bear. Like, you don't really, you know, he's going to die and you don't care. So they're up in the woods. They're looking around the killer is immediately revealed. Maybe 20 minutes into the movie. They don't waste any time. He comes out of this, this cave with like a covering on it. He's wearing that mask, which is creepy. And he's got the glove on. And he's wearing what look like army fatigues or something like that. Like it's almost like an outfit or a uniform. And he starts going around. He's just kind of observing them at first. But you immediately, he's got a bow and arrow. He sees the girls. And so he's kind of going up to them and he's stalking them. And then Javier shoots at a rabbit for some reason, which Marisa gets very upset about inexplicably. And that kind of scares off the killer for a minute. And then you see that he's about to kill one of the girls who's going after, I think, a frisbee that goes into the lake. And just as he's about to either jumper or killer or whatever he's going to do, they start calling to her because Javier has fallen into a trap and injured his foot. And right about the same time that Javier falls in the trap, Nacho, Charlie and Alejandro up in the woods and they come across a human body and they're like, "Oh shit, this isn't a bear because they see an arrow is in the rib cage." So this is not a bear. Bears do not shoot arrows. So they immediately know that something is wrong. And so they run back and by the time they get back to the camp, it is now nightfall. And so the scene that we're going to have here is Nacho is bandaging up. I don't think they ever explained that Nacho has any medical training, but for some reason he knows how to bandage a sprained ankle. So this starts off where he is bandaging Javier's ankle. And Javier right here starts to become a little bit more of, "Oh, you know what, maybe Nacho is the better of the two people I've aligned myself with here." Because Maurice doesn't seem to care all that much to these hurt and Nacho immediately bandages his foot and takes care of him. So this is the scene where Nacho has, he's suspected all along that Maurice knows more than he's saying about what's going on in the woods. And this is where he's going to confront them because now he knows that what's in the woods is not a bear and he thinks that Mauriceio, I should say Mauriceio, not Maurice, because Maurice is the Americanized Maurice. So Mauriceio clearly has more knowledge and thinks that this is where he's going to confront them about it. I'll have you describe it afterwards. 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