Focus on Africa

Dozens killed in DR Congo jailbreak

An attempt by inmates to break out of Makala high-security prison in Kinshasa, DR Congo, has led to the deaths of more than 100 people.

How can Africa benefit from ties with China?

And can traditional and modern medicine work together? We hear from someone who practices both in Uganda.

Presenter :Audrey Producers: Sunita Nahar, Bella Hassan and Stefania Okereke in London. Charles Gitonga and Frenny Jowi in Nairobi. Technical Producer: Nick Randell Senior Producer: Paul Bakibinga Editors: Andre Lombard and Alice Muthengi

Duration:: 34m
Broadcast on:: 04 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Hello and welcome to this podcast from the BBC World Service. Please let us know what you think and tell other people about us on social media. Podcasts from the BBC World Service are supported by advertising. Hey, it's Mark Marin from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it. Well, choose Progressive's name your price tool and you could find insurance options that fit your budget so you can pick the best one for your situation. Who doesn't like choice? Try it at Progressive.com. And now some legal info, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliate's price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states. As John broke over the seven seas, the pirates of the crimson galleons set sail for adventure. But there was one problem, paperwork, mountains of it, filing invoices, you name it. Luckily, their captain had an idea. She used the smart buying tools on Amazon Business so they could work more efficiently and get back to doing what they do best. I know, right? Amazon Business, your partner for smart business buying. Hello, I'm Audrey Brown and today in Focus on Africa, the Africa-China Summit is underway in Beijing. So we have questions about how that relationship is going. China has shown propensity to take risks, provide investments in areas that are probably the traditional waste one or two comfortable. You know places that are considered risky. The presence of China has created a bigger market for their products and that has worked quite well for them. And how traditional and modern medicine work together in Uganda. It's Wednesday the 4th of September. First, we go to Kinshasa. A jailbreak in one of the largest and most notorious prisons in the Democratic Republic of Congo has led to the deaths of more than a hundred people. It happened on Monday night at Makala prison in the capital Kinshasa. Makala was built in the 1950s to hold 1,500 prisoners. Reports suggest it holds some 14,000 prisoners now and Amnesty International says most of them have not even been tried or sentenced. They are awaiting trial. It's estimated that only 6% of the prisoners were actually serving sentences in Makala. And it's not the first time there's been a jailbreak there. In 2017, at least 4,000 detainees escaped after armed men stormed the building late one night. The Interior Minister Shabani Luku said of Monday night's events that 24 prisoners had died of bullet wounds after warning shots were fired and most of the others died of suffocation. Mr Luku spoke about the situation in a video statement posted on social media. The fire damaged the administrative buildings of the registry, the infirmary and the food stocks. Although we have restored calm, the government condemns these unfortunate incidents and presents its deepest condolences to the families of the victims. Investigations are continuing and the public will be informed of the outcome. The Congolese government promised to reduce the inmates in prisons across the country and said new jails would be built outside of Kinshasa to reduce overcrowding. Fred Baume was once held in Makala. He is a human rights activist and Executive Director of Ebutelli, a Congolese Institute on Politics, Governance and Violence. He was 26 years old when he was arrested and held for 18 months. He faced the death penalty for planning, insurrection and terrorist activities, charges he said were politically motivated. Amnesty International declared Baume a prisoner of conscience and following international pressure on his behalf, he was released in 2016. So tell me first, what was it like for you in Makala prison? What is it like in the prison as an inmate? Life in Makala was an easy role. I got there in 2015 and together with many other people and the first thing is you realize it's difficult to find a sale when you will spend the nights. So being assigned a sale depends on how much money you have and how much the family you can support you. In my case I was lucky to have a family that could help me find a sale that I shared with another activist, Eve Makambala with whom I was arrested. But for many for four thousand they don't have that assistant and ended up living in sales where that is built for two people. You will find more than 10, 15, 20 people in it. So you have to pay for the space that the prison should provide you as a matter of course, as a matter of legal right. How much did you have to pay for a sale? Oh it's very expensive. You can pay up to several hundred of dollars. Sometimes people go up to a thousand to have access to a sale. And you have that sale for the duration of your time there or are you basically renting it and they can come back anytime and ask you for more money. They can come back anytime and ask you for more money. They can move you to another pavilion that is worse. So you can feel the pressure and be obliged to pay additional money. You don't have any guarantee that if you pay for a sale it will be yours. You're not buying it. You just caught on the renting it. And usually when they bring in people like all of us, they will bring you in the worst part of the prison for a few days. So you understand the urgency of living that place and you be motivated to pay whatever resources you may have to go in a place that is slightly better but still with the same challenges. The situation in Makal and general there is no better place. I mean there are places that are there's worse than others but still in a very difficult logistical and health situation. Tell us about the conditions under which you first come into the prison. What do you find, of course overcrowding, topmost? But you know what else is there? So you find that is overcrowded. You also find that there is a system of surveillance by the prisoners themselves. So once you reach the part of the prison where there are sales there is no more police officer or law enforcement people inside to become a sort of environment where the prisoners themselves, the prisoners governs themselves and with a lot of violence and intimidation daily. You also find out that anything that you need to do has to be authorized not by the people in charge of managing the prison but your fellow prisoners who have some responsibility within the prison, even to go out and take somewhere in a daily normal time when it's open. It should be monitored by those prisoners. And then you find out that sanitary are not, when they exist they are in very terrible condition and lastly you find out they don't give you a fool. So you have to find ways to buy stuff from outside and to be able to cook for yourself. You were talking about the violence. I imagine that if you do have money on you somebody might just take the money off you so you won't be able to pay for your food. So how do you survive under those circumstances? Of course if someone find your money you may take it. So people when they manage to get money inside they keep it very careful. I mean after a few months you start learning how to survive inside. So you start learning how to build some sort of relationship with those who are in a situation of power. Just to make sure you are not harassed or if you are harassed someone may protect you and you will find a way to learn how. I mean if you don't cook when many people did not before they go in jail you find a way to learn to cook for yourself. Otherwise you may die and actually people die in prison in DRC. So I can imagine that it's really difficult to try and establish the order of things because if it's out of a crowded you come from outside you have no idea what's going on inside. Is there somebody that tells you, shows you the rope, tells you who's in charge or what? How do you navigate? So it depends of how lucky you are I guess. If there is not a sort of orientation a session there is no such a thing. You learn as the days go. In my case I was lucky enough to land in a cell where a person was kind enough to kind of introduce me to how things work in jail. And I think that helps me a lot because then you understand the politics inside and who is who, what you can do, what kind of studio you should take. And that person helped me and helped productivists who rest later a lot to navigate at least to know how to integrate yourself in that system and to survive. Because when you're talking about priority but I think when you get in prison like Makala the first thing your main priority is to find a way to survive. It's like they throw you somewhere, they state throw you somewhere and they don't care about you anymore. And inside Makala it's like another republic. They actually call it Zaire. It's like you change the country and there's a new government you need to know how those rules but there's nobody who will explain to you. You may learn it's the hard way or you may be like yes I was at least to find someone who will tell you. You know okay when someone explained to you and people in prison realize that someone is explaining to you how it works they can go after that person which happened to my person who became my friend. Right. So they want you to be disoriented. They want you to be at the mercy of whoever is in charge rather than somebody help you. So they squash any empathy and sympathy that exists there. How do you survive those conditions? What did you need to find inside yourself to survive because you're out now? Yeah so one thing is to try to find something that we will continue to give you hope. In Makala as in governments in King Chassa there is a lot of churches so people go to those churches and in prison you have more than 30 small churches every day so prisoners go to those places to find I guess the source of hope. In my case I started going to the church three times a week but mostly I survive by trying to channel my sorry in readings so you have to to be innovative and to figure out what you can do by yourself and where you can start but all this was like a way of trying to make use of your time because otherwise you may fall in depression very very easily and that's that's happened to many people. Fred Marme, executive secretary of Ebutelli a research institute based in King Chassa. That's a class in session in Uganda. An instructor is hard at work teaching pupils Mandarin one of the main languages spoken in China. This is common in several African countries as Sino African relationships have grown over the years and this week a crucial conference to further deepen that relationship is taking place in Beijing. It's the ninth forum for China Africa Corporation for CAC for short. The forum was founded in the year 2000 as a conduit through which China has been able to access African economies by funding big infrastructure projects and opening Chinese run staffed and controlled businesses. That has caused much dissatisfaction among African populations with complaints of ill treatment and exploitation at the hands of Chinese operators rife. This year's forum is happening against the backdrop of trade wars between China and the United States among other western countries. Beijing is finding it harder to sell its goods in the west. Africa provides a much needed market for Chinese goods but will it continue to provide benefits for China at the expense of its people. Many are hoping that the leaders at the forum can tip the scales in favor of the people of the continent. I've been discussing the issues with Cliff Mboja a postdoctoral fellow at the Center for Africa China Studies at the University of Johannesburg. So, this forum began 25 years ago. Why did it start and how has it gone since then to now? For CAC started in 2000 and prior to that late 1990s we saw a lot of increased engagement between China and Africa. There was increasing trade Chinese companies were coming here. So, there was a need to formalize that engagement and just make it formal to fit the growing relationship. And what was it predicated upon? What is it meant to do besides organizing and formalizing a relationship? What were the founding principles of it? FOCA was founded basically on the principles of South South cooperation. The Asia-Africa solidarity movement from Bandung. So, those discussions culminated into FOCA can with China's growth and rise and interest in the continent. It was a very important platform to ride on just to build on the relationship and the so fight has worked well for China. And the narrative still goes on to that. You say it's worked well for China. What has China got out of it? China has got political allies. We have a very strong voting bloc that is very important for China and the international space when it comes to international institutions. For example, China relies on African votes to a large extent to drive its change agenda. Now, we are talking about a role based order that does not suit developing countries and countries in the global South. So, we see China coming up with new ideas and new concepts of global governance. And most of that relies on African votes and African support in the international scene. And what do African countries, because I'm going to now differentiate between Africa as a region, and talk about Africa as a continent with 55 countries, what do those countries benefit from the relationship with China? And of course, I know it's not equal. Not all countries are equally engaged in China. So, I'm quite happy for you to choose countries to highlight or demonstrate your answer. Well, I start from a general perspective. China has given African alternative development partner. This has brought a sense of urgency from the continent. It has given us a voice, because now you have alternatives. You cannot be dictated on what to do, how to democratize and things like that. So, when things don't work out on this side, you have an alternative, and you've seen that playing out on the continent. Coming back to specific countries, China has been able and has shown propensity to take risks, provide investments in areas that are probably the traditional West or not comfortable. You know places that are considered risky, countries like Angola, for example, mineral rich countries like the DRC and South African countries. I think the presence of China has created a bigger market for their products, and that has worked quite well for them. Who would you say on balance has benefited most from this relationship, because we started talking about China, and the way in which it does invest in various African countries. For instance, people, and in fact, Siro Ramaphosa, the South African president in his opening remarks on his arrival at the forum, was talking about greater opportunities for people from within African countries to participate in these Chinese investments, because we used to report on China bringing everything it needs, including the labor, and not at all, involving local expertise or anything like that, and basically extracting and leaving nothing much behind. Will that change? It has to change. We are seeing a learning process, we are seeing this agency not just towards other actors, but even towards China, we are calling for more accountability. After COVID, we have learnt our lesson on the debt challenge, for example, we are seeing calls for more accountability, measurable projects, like we are not talking about it, we are beating roads. Now we are talking about jobs, for example, if we are trading with China, we are doing this with China, how does it translate to the actual job creation? They are talking about industrialization, for example, we are talking about value addition, we want to be part of the global value chain, not just receivers of maybe Chinese technology and things like that. I think we are on the right track, but definitely more needs to be done, and I believe we are getting there. So what is on the agenda for this, which is the ninth meeting of African leaders in China, the political landscape has changed for everybody post-COVID. China is facing its own challenges, and African countries are facing their challenges. So for the next 25 years, starting with this meeting, what are things looking like? What's on the agenda? What are the priorities? From my perspective, trade will play a big crapless in these negotiations. Technology will be big, green energy or renewable energy. And I don't know why people are not talking about infrastructure, you know, maybe it's because of the loans issue, but infrastructure remains in the agenda. Africa still needs infrastructure investments, it's just that we need to find innovative ways of financing these projects. China has also been talking about new quality productive forces, you know, shifting from a traditional industry driven economic growth to tech driven high level, high tech economic growth. I think this is one area that will be explored. You know, Chinese companies have played a big role in establishing technological infrastructure on their continent. So I think this will continue and it will be important because it provides a more viable avenue towards economic recovery compared to, for example, infrastructure projects that are capital intensive. Now, China is facing trade barriers in the US and much of the western world, particularly with its technology and green energy products. Is that one of the reasons why you think China might be pivoting in this direction in Africa? Yes, for sure, because, you know, it's not that production will stop. So they definitely have to look for alternative markets for these products. We also have a lot of potential in green energy, particularly when you're talking about solar, for example. So it is a huge opportunity for China as well as African countries, but then it depends on how we are going to negotiate this, because China will ask for market access. We are already seeing Chinese companies, particularly in the EV market, coming to the continent and partnering with local companies. So we are just hoping that it won't be another case of dumping of Chinese technology and products. We just hope that we will be able to negotiate something balanced so that we benefit from that scenario. Do you think that this forum will actually see African countries coming away with a stronger negotiating position, with stronger benefits? Yes, I think it will. The fact that China is facing a lot of restrictions from the US that gives that opportunity to demand more and also to means that China will probably see more to the African continent. Mr. Boya, thank you so much. Welcome. Cliff Boya, postdoctoral fellow at the Center for Africa, China Studies at the University of Johannesburg. This is Focus on Africa from the BBC World Service. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, potential savings will vary, not available in all states. Ryan Reynolds here for, I guess, my 100th mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Honestly, when I started this, I thought only I had to do like four of these. I mean, it's unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming here. Give it a try at midmobile.com/switch, whenever you're ready. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month, new customers on first three month plan only, taxes and fees extra, speeds lower above 40 gigabytes of CT. It's a proven fact that many Africans turn to traditional systems of physical and spiritual healing quite often. A World Health Organization study 20 years ago found that at least 80% of people on the continent rely on traditional medicine for their health. But traditional healers and traditional healing methods in Africa have been subjected to decades of trashing by other ideologies, Christianity, colonialism and others, which have equated these practices with satanic rituals and witchcraft. This issue is alive in Uganda at the moment, because someone claiming to be a traditional healer has been found to be in possession of human body parts. The traditional healers association in Uganda has distanced itself from these people. So in an effort to understand what traditional healing is or is not, I've been speaking to Dr. Yahaya Sekajja, founder of the Sekajja Institute of Traditional Medicine. Dr. Sekajja is a medical doctor and a dental surgeon by training, as well as being a traditional healer. It is something that you are, but then you actualize it and then undergo training where necessary. Training involves many aspects. First of all, you must have indicators that you have there are no intimate. You have the calling. Those indicators can manifest on you or are recognized by the elders. After that, then you go through a process of ancestral exploration. Ancestral exploration means they explore the ancestral spirits that you have. Then you can go under training and apprenticeship, which takes quite a longer time. Then you go into a graduation and pass out. At what point of your training as a traditional healer, did you become a dentist or did the two not overlap? Having the indicators and also having the ancestral spirit exploration was done before I became a dentist and then I continued with the practice and then after ancestral exploration, I went for dental training. I stayed in academia and then after dental surgery, I went for training and apprenticeship. As a traditional healer or as a dentist? As a traditional healer. Right, so there was some form of overlap between the two. Tell me this. Why did you become a dentist when you were already identified as a traditional healer? Dentistry is an academic process and the other traditional healer is a gift. Everybody has a gift and actualizing your gift does not stop you from taking academic courses, but the principles of work seem to be different. To me, it is good that I have acquired both skills, the medical principles and the traditional healing principles. How do the two work together? Because from my very basic understanding of it, they seem to involve very different ways of approaching imbalances. You see, it is the patient who needs both skills. Patients need the skills of Western medical trained people and these patients need skills of traditional healers. I'm fortunate to have both, so there is no conflict. It's just an advantage that you can use both and be able to choose which one is best for the patient. But can you treat a sore tooth or somebody who needs root canal work or somebody whose gums need serious fixing with traditional methods? Can you diagnose it with traditional methods and then treat it that way? No, you cannot be able to canal using traditional methods, but you can treat gingivitis using traditional methods. The traditional healthcare system is understood by the people who practice it and one of them. Now, the reason why we're having this conversation, because we do hear stories ever so often of people found with human and animal parts and people saying that they use these for healing. This was the case actually in Uganda quite recently. So those sorts of stories do shape people's understanding of what traditional healing is all about, no? And in a negative way as well. Yes, haven't you had stories, negative stories in Western medicine? Absolutely, I have. That's called discolify the practice because there are some people who do wrong things in Western medicine? No, wrong things in any system are there. But if we have a good regulatory system, that's how it is checked out. Traditional medicine in Uganda is not well regulated. Some kind of autonomy in regulation is important in a healthcare system, in addition to others, because we have professional councils that regulate the practices. So traditional medicine must have professional councils other than councils established by governments. Now, we know that colonialism, Christianity, other religious influences outside of local traditional practices have derided and denied the importance of traditional healing systems to the people that practice it. How do you reverse that damage? Colonization had a program to destroy the African traditional spirituality and culture and also destroy the education system and also the health system. That took many hours to be achieved. I don't think we can take a shorter time to reverse it. But understanding our own system from its first principles might be one of the ways to slowly reverse the process. And fortunately, some of us have come up. We are now knowledgeable enough in both systems. We can lay the foundation to reverse the process. But it requires sustained support and also a supportive legal framework. But much of the legal framework that exists is still by the colonial system. And the colonial people who trained us in the Western medical system are still dominant. So we are to go slow. We cannot achieve it in a day or in 10 years. But the process has a start. And I think it has already started. By the time you get interested, having such an interview, it applies that actually. Many of you are in support of that and time will come. We shall achieve it. We doubt the bad actors, as they say. The people that damage the tradition and do it again and again in different countries. One, we don't know if it is still part of the formatory process of devaluing our values. When the investigating team is not knowledgeable enough, it cannot do the right job. So it requires for some of us to be part of the investigative team. For now, I am sure the investigating team has taken its side, which is a criminal approach to it. That's very true and it's important. But to me, there is need for more to that. Which should be investigated with the sober and biased mind. Your practice is holistic. If I come to you and I say, you know, I have this problem, my teeth are aching. How do you apply both the traditions that you have studied in? We have the physical body and we have this other non-biological path. We have the soul, the spirit. In Western medicine, we are trained to handle the physical body and its biology, the organ, the systems and their physiological functions. Within the traditional healthcare system, the morals, emotions, those other complexes are all handled within the same city. So that's why I'm saying when you get sick and possibly you have a high blood pressure and it is secondary to a breakage in the marriage at home or an abuse, giving you anti-pattensive drug that does not solve the problem. But when I address the cause of your abuse or when I understand the cause of the problem of the disturbances at home and I solve it and I really address it, then I might not need even to give you the anti-pattensive drugs. So if you specify a tooth egg and the tooth egg is out of a biological damage, then I will handle it as a biological damage. But in case it is a tooth egg and I actually look in the x-ray, examine it and there is no probable cause of the tooth egg, then it might be somatocytic other than psychosomatic. So I will address it in the reverse order. That's Dr. Yahaya Sakajya of the Sakajya Institute of Traditional Medicine. Focus on Africa was put together by Sunita Nahar, Bella Hassan and Stephanie Okareke here in London. Charles Kitonga and Franny Joey were on the case from Nairobi. Nick Randal was our technical producer, Paul Batchabinger, is the senior producer. Andre Lombard and Alice Moudengi are our editors. I'm Audrey Brown and we'll talk again next time. Hey, it's Mark Marin from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it. Well, choose Progressive's name your price tool and you could find insurance options that fit your budget so you can pick the best one for your situation. Who doesn't like choice? Try it at Progressive.com and now some legal info, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states. As Dawn broke over the seven seas, the pirates of the Crimson galleons set sail for adventure. But there was one problem, paperwork, mountains of it, filing invoices you name it. Luckily, their captain had an idea. She used the smart buying tools on Amazon Business so they could work more efficiently and get back to doing what they do best. I know, right? Amazon Business, your partner for smart business buying. [BLANK_AUDIO]