Modern Soccer Coach Podcast

Adapt and Evolve! Anthony Pulis on the Coaching Journey

We are joined by Real Salt Lake (MLS) assistant coach, Anthony Pulis. With extensive experience in the game, as well as both UEFA Pro Licence and US Soccer Pro Licence, Anthony has worked as both head coach with Miami FC and St Louis FC. He's also held assistant roles at Inter Miami and Orlando City.

#coaching #soccer #football #anthonypulis #success #journey #coach #manager #mls #podcast #podcasting #podcaster #modernsoccercoach #soccercoachingdrills #interview #garycurneen #football #futbol #futebol

Duration:: 1h 11m
Broadcast on:: 16 Sep 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

There's a difference between putting on a session and coaching a session. I get a little bit frustrated when I hear talk about attacking coaches and my game model is based around an attacking style of play. Fantastic but not one team in the world has 100% possession of the ball. I know if I want to have a long career in this profession that you have to consistently adapt, you have to evolve, you have to be resilient, you have to have thick skin, you have to understand you're going to get creative sized and you have to be big enough and strong enough and bold enough to accept it. Hello coaches, welcome back to another modern soccer coach interview. Join us today is Anthony Poulis, Real Salt Lake assistant coach MLS, phenomenal journey in the game, experiences as a player in the professional game as a coach, as a head coach, assistant coach, expansion teams, MLS teams, pro teams, teams of the defensive records are so much in this development, improvement, adapting, evolving. I hope you enjoy it, please like, please subscribe so you don't miss any more of the interviews. Please check out all the content over on modernsarkercoach.com. Thank you so much for the support. Here is Anthony and Joy. Anthony, thanks so much for joining me today on the Modern Soccer Coach podcast, really, really excited chat. Yeah, no thanks Gary, it's a pleasure, I've been an avid listener for a long time so it's a pleasure to be on and have a chat with you. Berlin, Berlin, well appreciate that first and foremost, kind of a strange question was putting this together with like, okay, let's go with the direction of a coaching journey, adapting to different roles and adapting to the game in different ways, blah, blah, blah, but then also the first question which I suppose inspired by the overlap where the boys are all off and ex-pros about who on earth would want to do this job in today's day and age with the noise and the pressure and I've been thinking about that for a few weeks. Do you think the position has changed in coaching over the last five years and is it less desirable perhaps than what it once was? I don't know, I think it probably changes from person to person and what generation of person that you would speak to. I've obviously been fortunate that I've grown up around the game my whole life and I've seen firsthand what management can look like and I'm sure what we'll touch on it as we go through the podcast and chat. I do think it's obviously changed drastically over probably the last five to ten years. I think specifically now social media and I think we live in a world now where everybody wants instant success. Everybody now has a smartphone and you tap on an app and you can have food delivered to your door and all these different things at the click of a button and I think we now live in a football world where fans, owners, upper management expect a lot of the time instant success so with that comes added pressure. I think the generation of player that we're working with now, human beings evolve so the players that we're working with now are vastly different to maybe what they were five, ten, fifteen, twenty years ago and just the way that they are and the motivations that they have and how they deal with successes and failures, how do you speak to them, now as opposed to maybe what I was spoken to like as a young player sort of fifteen, twenty years ago. So I think again, for me personally, I'm in love with the game of football. I have been my whole life and I feel really fortunate enough to have played professionally for a number of years, albeit I would consider myself a pretty average player but I was able to forge somewhat of a career and now I've been able to be coaching now full time for what's ten years now and I know if I want to have a long career in this profession that you have to consistently adapt, you have to evolve with the times. I think the best managers over the course of again the last sort of fifteen, twenty years are the ones that have evolved, have adapted, that are curious, that are open-minded to new ideas, to new ways of working, again adapting to the generation of player that we're working with because at the end of the day it's about players and this game, this industry is still how do we get the best out of players that are going to get you results that keep you in the game because at the end of the day at the professional level that's what it's all about. I think for me I feel like I'm obsessed with the game and I would imagine that the majority of other professional coaches are like that and this is why we do it because we love the game of football first and foremost. We have a real passion for wanting to teach and help players improve and ultimately win games of football at the weekend which is why which is obviously what we get paid to do. I think the reason why I love that podcast that the overlap is that the fact that you get that insight of ex-pros that you've watched and you've seen play and then you talk about the game and they talk about managers and you see that from perspectives and just to go back there there was Patrice Everett, I don't know if you've watched this one. I actually just, you know what, I actually just listened to that one this morning when I was in the gym. Yeah. Very interesting. I wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's the difference in the training at Juventus compared to Man United, the preparation for games and the really, really interesting, yeah, sorry. What did you think about him going to Ferguson and Alex Bautner was starting? What did you think about that? Yeah, and again, I'm laughing as I'm listening to that because I think about, again, I'm obviously going to relate this to my own experiences, right? So I think about myself as a young player growing up in England and again, the way that it was then is that you don't go to the manager and ask what I would consider that to be a silly question because you probably know what you're going to get. However, the way the players are now, they obviously feel more empowered and more comfortable to have those conversations with coaches, which depends which way you look at it. It's not a bad thing that they feel comfortable to have these conversations with coaches and managers. And it was interesting, even listening to that podcast or the overlap with whatever, he even spoke about Ferguson and spoke to him about they were going to change from the United were playing 4-4-2 in the league and then, but they were getting to that stage where they wanted to change and play 4-3-3 in Europe because they didn't want to get overloaded in midfield and interested in how Ferguson actually went and asked some players that. And again, from the outside, you would never have imagined Sir Alex Ferguson going and just making sure that the players were comfortable with a certain tactical approach. You would think he would be so comfortable in his own skin with his coach and stuff to go, "Right, this is what we think is going to be the right thing to do. Let's go and do it." And I think, again, great lesson for all of us as coaches to understand at the end of the day, the players are the ones that are going out there and executing. So how do you make sure that they're completely bought in? And again, there's an answer to how you ask these questions, but if they're not bought in and they're not 100% behind it, then it becomes very difficult. So yeah, really interesting and again, how things have changed. And even Gary Neville, I think, made a comment on there about, he would never have dreamt of asking a question like that. So even that little insight, again, as to Gary Neville's come through the Academy at Manchester Night, probably from the age of probably 11, 12, whatever it was. So there's no way I could ask the boss that question, but then ever comes in completely different background, feels a little bit more comfortable to have that conversation. So again, just get lessons for us on how we have to adapt and how do we approach these conversations with players. The piece as well, and I think it was the same side, maybe in the same segment of conversation where Neville said that and then Rooney goes, or no, they said the point of Rooney and said he would do it in person, he would do it in front of people. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there's, again, an unwritten rule or something that you have to adapt is that as you move up the ladder, you think as a coach initially that I want to work with the top players because I can do ABC, but you also trade off with those top players. What big personalities go along with that? Yeah. 100%. I think, again, as coaches, we're all ambitious and we all want to work at the highest level we can. And maybe the way that you would coach and teach and lead, an academy group of players naturally has to be different when you're working with senior players. And obviously the higher you go at the professional level and you start to now come across bigger egos, players that have potentially played at the highest level for even a longer time than I've coached. Again, we'll probably touch on it as we go for this conversation just, I've had some fantastic experiences here so far in the States. Orlando Kakar was there. So world superstar, like pinch me moments where you're like, what's going on here? You're coaching one of the best players at the world seeing into Miami. We had Gonzalo Iguar, he plays Mattuidi. So I think, again, just understanding how do you adapt? How do you evolve? But at the same time, Gary, you've got to be authentic. And I think you've got to understand that there's a balance and there's a line and sometimes and I've experienced this firsthand is if you feel like a certain player is stepping over a line, then you have to be strong because otherwise I also feel like players are really smart and they'll sniff out maybe a weakness or a sign of what they perceive weakness. And then that can be where it gets really tricky. So not saying you rule with a nine fist all the time, but I think there has to be this line and just again, this authenticity of who you are as a coach, what are your beliefs, what are your non-negotiables with behaviors of players and making sure players are clear on that as well. I think and again, my own experiences have shown, I think if you're true to yourself, if you're clear on expectations, clear on non-negotiables and then you follow through with that. So your actions actually meet your words because again, I've seen a lot of coaches as well that will say the right things and in certain situations arise and maybe the actions then don't match the words and that's when you start to maybe fall into a trap of all right, you start to lose respect and trust of certain parts of the dressing room. So it's a fascinating topic. The biggest thing for me is we have to stay current, we have to understand the type of player that we're dealing with now, agents, they've got again hundreds of thousands of people following them on social media that will be saying certain things to them after maybe good performances, not so good performances. So yeah, there's so much that we have to think about when we start to think about how we lead and manage the modern day player. Yeah, there's some plots going on all over the place, doesn't there? There is. Yeah, it's everywhere. And I think again, sometimes personally, I'm sure a lot of coaches will relate is we just get caught wrapped up in this world of player A is a footballer and he's actually a human being. And there's so many things that are going on behind the scenes within his life that maybe we aren't aware of and hence why I think it's so important that there's always this constant flow of communication and trying to check in with players and if you're fortunate enough to be at a club where there's a decent sized staff that you can kind of delegate and certain staff members will take care of certain parts of the group to make sure that we're all aware of where they're at in their lives. Things that again, might be problematic with a partner, with a parent, with a pet, you don't know. As we, our player X has been poor today in training, his head wasn't right. Well, okay, do we need to have a conversation and figure out what's going on in this personal life first? What could be affecting that? Has he been affected by a bunch of criticism from keyboard warriors on Twitter or Instagram and that? And then so how can that help us in the way that we coach and lead that certain individual as well? What aspect of adapting and then staying authentic that you talked about when you go to, again, sometimes as coaches, we're led to believe that it's all about creating the environment and creating the culture, but often when you're going into jobs, enrolls, the culture's already there. So let's talk about that going into an environment and kind of reading and staying authentic and navigate them through how you kind of observe and get, read all the non-negotiables in there. How do you go through that? Well, I think it starts, for me, Gary, it starts with some due diligence prior. So I think it's really important before you get yourself into a new job or a new club is that you've done some, you've done some prior research. And for me, that is really fun calls and it's trying to speak to people that are currently working there or have previously worked at the club, players, even certain agents that you might have good relationships with that you know they've had a play there in the past from office staff, physios. I think, again, just through years of experience, you don't realize how many sort of contacts you've got that might know people in and around the environment. So I think having those fun calls first is important just to get a lay of the land. So as you go in, you're already kind of maybe aware of certain things to look out for. And then once you're in the environment, again, I'll come back to the communication piece. I think it's having conversations with as many people as you can early on to find out about them, but then also be quite strategic in questions that you can ask. And I always like asking questions about how prior coaches have worked, what were the sessions like, what were the video sessions like, same thing with maybe trainers, physios, equipment managers? Because then I think quite quickly you kind of get an idea of certain people might be overly critical and might say certain things that you might sense, all right, well, that's a little bit maybe over the line. And then for me and obviously in the coaching world, you quickly pick a lot of things up in those first few training sessions. So just good old standards, habits, what do the players' attitudes look like, how open to coaching, how open to learning, are they, again, even little things like Rondo's, like a simple 5v2 box, a player's doing it properly. So I'm talking about the two in the middle, are they pressing properly? Are they trying to win the ball back quickly? The guys around the outside, are they passing the ball properly? Are they on their toes? Is there good communication? There's so many little nuances and things that you can pick up early on that just give you an idea of, all right, what's the training culture here is fantastic, great. We don't have to really worry too much about, or, okay, there's, I'm seeing a lot of things here that are a little bit loose and a little bit sloppy and they're going to need, we're going to need to make sure that we tweak and adjust certain things. The other things, video sessions Gary, so again, just in this day and age where there's so much video and I think it's, again, as we talk about how the games evolved and adapted huge part of the game now, when you ask questions. So ask putting a clip up and again, I think at the beginning, it's important that you create expectations and make the players understand why you're going to ask questions. Another tweak of how the modern day player is, they want to know the why. But again, you ask a question and dead silence, okay, well, maybe there's not been a culture of teaching and questions in the past, so how a player is going to adapt to this or you've got five or six players, bam, they're saying the right thing, you go, okay, so with all these little things and as each day goes by, then you start to pick up certain things and I think the biggest thing for me and the way I believe you find out about a true person's character and a culture is when maybe things aren't going well. So if you've not had a great performance, you've maybe not had some good results, maybe the training sessions haven't been right, play it, certain players have been left out the line up, how do people respond and react to those situations. So yeah, there's so many things, timekeeping's a big one for me, Gary, again, I think that's just a huge sign of respect if players are on time and they're in the gym doing their pre-activation at the correct time, they're turning up to the video room for the meetings, they're on the field early, ready to go, again, they're not, they're late, there's looseness, bus arrival, flight arrivals, all these things I think just give you a really good idea of where things are and then from there, how do you start to adapt and potentially try and tweak certain things within the parameters of your own specific role on a staff as well, by the way. We've also got the novelty over here of expansion teams and that, it's starting from fresh, which you've experienced at with Inter Miami, how challenging is it then to go in and you mentioned Igor in earlier, is that what goes there, is that was that tough? It was incredibly difficult, again, I look back, it was really challenging at the time, Gary, and now I look back and learn so many lessons from that experience. As you say, it was an expansion team, it was brand new, we had a brand new staff that got put together really late, we literally, we all met each other, I think it was probably four days before the first preseason training session, it was Diego Alonso, who was a, who's a Uruguayan coach, had had good success in Mexico, he'd won the conquer calf champions league twice with two different teams, he brought some staff members with him, I was brought in separately, there was some analysts brought in separately, another goalkeeper coach, excuse me brought in separately, so it was kind of all thrown together, the head coach hadn't had really any say in the recruitment, so the squad or the roster had all been put together prior through the sporting director and his recruitment team, so straight off the bat, I knew going into it, this is going to be incredibly challenging and it's going to be really interesting to see how we try and mesh this, adding to the melting pot, you have certain members of staff that only speak Spanish and no English, you have certain members of staff that are only speaking English, you have this big divide within the plain squad of good solid MLS veterans, mostly English speaking, then you sprinkle in some younger South American players that really only speak Spanish, so really challenging, the preseason was a little bit messy as well, again the head coach and the technical staff didn't really have an awful lot of say in where we were going to go for preseason camp when we wanted the games, so there was some conflict, well we want to get some more training sessions in before the first game and then as it gets towards the end, not enough games, so there's all these different conflicting opinions about how certain things should be done, lose the first two games of the season and then COVID hits, so you kind of get into this training rhythm finally of how the head coach wants it to look and the staff are clear, this is the periodization model, players are starting to get an idea of alright this is how we want to play, the cultural piece is going really really slowly and day by day it's getting a little bit better, then obviously we all go into lockdown, so we don't see each other for a number of weeks, so then everything is done on zoom, daily zoom meetings around certain cultural pieces but then a lot of tactical video where we're putting players in groups and trying to make the most of that and then you start to go into the individual and the small group train, so it was incredibly difficult, Gary I think with just with how the world was at that time and so many lessons that I've took from that where and it's easy from an assistant coach position sometimes where you're like well probably should be doing an extra team bonding event here and maybe we should be having an extra meeting or two there and so that the players have got a better understanding of each other as people and as human beings as opposed to footballers maybe that might start to create some more bonds and some more togetherness and more cohesion if they've understood where they've all come from and their backgrounds and their interests and things like that so it's really difficult we obviously we ended up I think we made that play in game as it was at the end of that year, unfortunately Diego and a few of his staff members lost his job and then I was fortunate enough to stay on staff as Phil Neville came in and and year two was completely different I think Phil and Diego were both very different leaders both very different coaches in the way that they wanted to balance what I would say the tactical side of the game but then also the man management side of the game and the psychological part and Phil was really intentional about making sure there was way more clarity on just basic values and expectations and what we want training to look like how we expect players to behave, professionalism, discipline, things like that so great learning for me to really work with two different coaches with different ideas both really authentic and obviously of both had excellent careers as players and obviously now coaching so it's really challenging and I always think like I don't think people realise how difficult expansion is and I look from afar at when Charlotte came in a few years ago and now San Diego are coming in this year and there's been enough now where you'd like to think people in those leadership positions have done their due diligence and have done a real deep dive into the things that these expansion teams have done well and then maybe the mistakes that they've made to try and obviously allow them to be as successful as they can. Hello coaches we'll take a quick break here if you are starting up the season and you're looking for some new ideas with session design or some new ideas on periodisation or just building sessions please check out the new content over on modernsarcaculture.com we are up to two new articles a week and there's loads more of resources of ebooks of webinars in the modern soccer coach shop as well modernsarcaculture.com/shop please check it out please share it with the coaching community we've also got the modern soccer coach online analysis course as well that's been really really popular we launched it a couple of months ago we're getting some great feedback on it we'd love for you to take a look at that modernsarcaculture.com/analysis thank you so much for the support back to Anthony. Let's talk about Miami FC obviously watching you if doing the analysis 17 clean sheets in one season like that's incredible a lot of people talk about the game models and and start off but I think it gets overlooked today on defensive cohesion how would you describe or how would you describe the process of creating a framework around a club that can get 17 clean sheets? Yeah it's it's an interesting one for me Gary because when I when I think about the game of football and people the question always is what's your playing philosophy your game model what's your ideas on the game and I always think the best teams are the most well-balanced teams and that comes again so your defensive organization how you're going to attack how you transition to defense how you're going to transition from defensive attack what you like attacking and defending resets there's so many things that go into it and and I look at the again I'll use Arsenal as an example as a team that I've watched a lot over the last couple years and they're so well balanced in every moment of the game there's such clarity of roles for each of those players in every single phase of the game whether they're pressing from goal kicks whether they're pressing from the mid-block whether they're defending around the box their behaviors in transition their rotations and their structure and build-up play how they finish attacks set pieces they're incredible both sides of the ball so I just think it again it's I get a little bit frustrated when I hear talk about um attacking coaches and my game model is based around an attacking style of play fantastic but not one team in the world has 100% possession of the ball so and again this is why we love this game because there's so many different ideas and philosophies around it and I just think for whatever reason staying you want to be defensively organized defensively sound difficult to play against is almost like unfashionable which frustrates me a little bit because I think it's a huge part of the game if we see it we see it at the top level so now how do I implement that with a team but as as a as a head coach and obviously I can talk about a little bit my role as an assistant at Salt Lake right now but for me it's about creating expectations so again the first thing is for me everybody should be defending so all 10 outfield players in the goalkeeper have a responsibility to have a role wherever the ball is in whatever phase of the game we are when we don't have it so being really clear um really open and transparent that the expectation is everybody defends and then I think it just it comes through a daily process of training sessions and video and I think we as coaches have to get this understanding of how each players they learn differently some of them are going to learn by doing some of them are going to learn by maybe looking at a tactics board some of them and the majority of them now if they'll tell you they they like video and they learn from looking at video clips so for me it's how do you get that nice balance between all of those and and I'll give you a snapshot of how that that season how we built it through preseason is we would always start with our defending from the front and that again for me we had two different structures that year the majority of time we would defend 4-4-2 and then we had certain games where we might defend in a 5-2-3 and so there's certain games where we would do it based off opponents sometimes it'd be based off personnel that we had sometimes in-game we might be seeing some situations we might have to tweak but I wanted the players to be really clear and and really comfortable defending in either of those two structures principles would never change we would always work off certain principles so we'd start off pressing high from goal kicks there would be video clips that we would show there would be some still images there might be some animations then we'd go and train it and I'm not we got into a rhythm of always wanting to show some visuals first so the players would see it in the video room then we'd go out and execute within the training session and then obviously then we'd move it back and how we're going to defend the middle of the pitch defend the halfway line defend the box then how do we transition and press out that so for me it's just it's about layering it up it's about being really clear one of the things I always wanted and I always still think is even in my role as an assistant now is when the players walk over the white line they're really clear on what their their role is whether that and and also as you go through it and I think utopia is the left back knowing exactly what the right winger should be doing when the ball's in a certain position the right side is sent about knows what the the forward to the left of the 442 should be doing in a certain situation if the opponent's building up with two or three it takes time so for me it's this real deep granular detail that you have to go into on a daily basis and you have to just build layers and for me it's the visuals and it's again just going through some really game-like scenarios on the training field and I'm sure we'll talk about that as we go through this as well but trying to put them in realistic situations in training and ultimately put them in a situation where they know what's expected when they walk over the white line and then the other thing as well is buying Gary so I think once you once you start to get clean sheets we would use it we would use it as as almost like a motivation of like I don't know after say after 10 games of the season we'd already had six clean sheets and when you top of that clean sheet shut guys look how difficult this is to with to play against then then all of a sudden that start you start getting then talking about it maybe some things start to drip into the media and then the opposition start thinking just this tick they don't can see goals like so then all of a sudden you start playing into the psyche a little bit as well and for me again player profiles like the recruitment pieces making sure that you're recruiting players that want to press that want to run want to cover their teammates and buy into this culture of team first yeah I always remember the the distances between the center of midfielders and the center backs was minimal to none the relationship between you give up nothing in that space centrally yeah well I think for me Gary that's probably defensive principle number one is is get compact and protect the middle that that again is and I'm sure the vast majority of coaches if not all of them probably the same thing so in order to be compact you need you need tight distances from top to bottom from side to side and then then it becomes a case of how do you press out of certain situations what if a certain player gets beaten how what's our cover position like how what's our emergency defending like if again a player for whatever reason has been caught asleep or the opposition do something different and maybe we weren't expecting this created an overload and it comes back to like what what do you I always think with defending Gary's what you willing to give up like you have to you have to give something up with how big the how big a football pitch is you cut with with ten outfield players there's only certain there's only certain number of spaces you can you can protect so as a coach what do you want to give up you want to give up maybe the space in front and the space outside brilliant make sure the players are clear on that maybe again you have a back four that are really quick and you're really comfortable defending one v one situations with 60 yards of space behind them then you can set your line higher and you can be more aggressive and you can maybe take some more risks in pressing in certain situations but don't have centre backs that aren't great defending space behind them and aren't comfortable one v one and you have to go plus one and you want your central midfield players to give them more protection then what does that look like to the forwards now their their positions have to adjust have you got full backs that are comfortable again really being aggressive great then you can adjust your wing as if you don't then maybe you need wingers that are going to do a little bit more running than maybe what they've been used to to give you a full batch protection in certain areas and there's so many different things that go into it and i think again as coaches we have to understand who are we what do what do we want it to look like but then also is it gonna is it gonna fit the profile and the attributes of the players that we have currently got at first thing level and over time you can you can recruit different types of profiles to fit what you want but initially it's about how do you get the best out of the players how are you again difficult to play against both sides of the ball and then creating this buying and and getting everybody working together as one unit because if you've got everybody working together as one unit when you don't have the ball again everybody knows it's going to be going to be difficult to play against yeah Berlin what does that look like then from a recruitment standpoint when of course data world today you know you're going to get 20 statistics on a on a midfielder per se but say yeah and that the how do you read whether they're going to really embrace that yeah well i think i think again i think certain each club i've been out of i've done it slightly differently but i think the vast majority now you've got certain filters that you will go through regarding certain like data metrics and data points that you want to make sure they hit um then it's obviously it's it's the old fashioned watching games so i think specifically with defenders what i've tended to do is i've you watched them obviously in full games but then i've actually gone back and watched the goals that their team has conceded in the past so i think you quickly start to get an idea of it's a it's a full back and he's not defending the back post well he's always detached from his weak side center back there's always these gaps that start to appear his body shapes closed he's either he's he's always ball watching so you'll start to quickly see all right well there's there's certain behaviors here that are a real red flag to again to defend specifically in our back four set up um center backs similar things like what are they like defending the box how what's their body shape look like when the opposition have time on the ball are they side on are they already starting to get ready to drop because there's a threat behind or are they caught square and they're caught underwears and they get done with one book so there's so many different behaviors and i think again specific to you as a coach and what are your non-negotables what are your specific positional profiles that you're you're not willing to give up on and then i think you need to have a list of things that all right well maybe i'm willing to give up in one or two of these certain areas of their game because maybe they're things that it's not going to be a huge issue for us we can adjust certain things around them or we can coach them up and these are things that we can help correct and if they are positional things maybe these are things that we can we can help improve them just with our training sessions our um our video sessions things like that so i think that again there's so many different pieces that go into it um we might have again we might have a a bunch of right-footed center backs already in the group well we need a left-footed center back like this is important for us maybe we want to because of the how hey where we want to attack and build up it's really important we get left-sided center back but all right well if we want that maybe we're gonna have to give up maybe you might not be the quickest so how's that gonna what's more important to us is it more important to have that left-footed center back to give us more balance in our build-up play but is it going to hurt us that much or we can't play high line and how do we adjust so and again i think these this is this is why we love the game so much because there's so many things that go into it but i always go back to like again as coaches i think having this having this real clarity on on what you want um and what are the non-negotiables for you what you're not willing to give up on i think is is is really important to it as well yeah burning burning um the role in Orlando you you've you've worked in different kind of roles alongside the development pathway and i'm fascinated by how that changes from obviously a a young player going into full-time footballs becoming a job there's a transition then there's the reality how do you adapt as a coach working with different players at different levels of the journey i think you learn on the job to be honest Gary i think i obviously played my last three last three years in my playing career we're not we're in Orlando but i already knew i knew years before then i wanted to go into coaching so i think going into into my period in Orlando i was i'd or even when i was playing i was already starting to go out and coaching the academy two or three nights a week um and i think early on i was working with the really young younger age groups like eight nine tens i i knew straight away this this is not this is the the age group and the level i want to coach at it was it was challenging it was difficult but then you start like i'm going into it with these ideas of all right well i'm going to try and do this session and i've i've seen a coach at first seen level put this session on all this pass and drill this and then you quickly realize now miles off it like that that is not going to work so a lot of it i think is just learning on a job then how do you speak to these these young boys and girls that you're coaching how are they how do you get their attention how are they gonna how are they gonna retain information are they gonna retain information by maybe you ask him a question is it by you telling him is it by you stopping the session and pointing to maybe two or three kids in one area that are doing an activity well and it's like that's that's how it should look have a look at those so i for me it's just been about learning on the job and and and a lot of trial and in those first two or three years working with the younger age groups and as it went on i was lucky then the club started to push me up and i'd start working 13 14 15 year olds um so a lot of trial and error um a lot of self-reflection um a lot of every session i would make sure i again i documented back then i wasn't using the digital coach coaching platform it was literally just me writing my sessions in in a journal and in a book and so i'd make my session plan for 14 players i'd get there and there'd be 11 and then i'd panic and i'd realize all right i'm gonna have to adjust and change this then after the session i'd go home and i'd go right what was good what wasn't good if i do this again what do i need to change next time so and and that's not changed like even now and i think just again this is purely for experience and i even players now that i'm coaching that that say they want to go into coaching and they ask for advice and i say the the best advice i can give you is go and get your feet wet go and find uh a team somewhere that you can just start to experiment like what area size do you need to do a four v four plus three in for an under twelve's group and then how might that adjust if you're now working with better players at u16 level um what's your style how how are you going to speak to players how how direct can you be so maybe for me going through the different age groups in Orlando and then getting up to to work with the u18s okay well now all right these are young men now if their attitude's not right or they've not started the session off and i don't feel like the mentality is right on point maybe i can stop it and get into them so the first time you get into them a little bit maybe you're a little bit stirner and a bit firmer than what you've been with some of the younger age how do they react all right but they've actually reacted really well here because there's been a big improvement okay so they can take it but can't be doing it every two minutes because then it goes in one ear and out the other so just this for me it's this constant self-reflection constant again early days trial and error um and then you start to figure out okay which of these players do you feel like i've got a real chance and you feel like there's some real potential here to go on and potentially have a career at the professional level and really honing in on them and finding out what they're like as people what their motivations like getting an idea with their background family and then from there again just through your own intuition and your own experiences how how do i need to make how do i need to manage that person again is it direct is it arm around the shoulder is it showing video is it pulling them at the end there's i i was fortunate to have this as a young player where and i've used it with with a lot of players is i was a central midfield player and that one of the coaches i played for when i was younger at Portsmouth was always on to me you're ball you're always keeping the ball your ball retention rates are really high but you're not playing enough four passes so every time we play a small sided game you cannot play a pass backwards or square so that everyone else is just playing a small sided game i'm actually doing i'm conditioned to do something different so if i now i start to think about my body shape how am i now supporting the player on the ball because i know i can't play small back or i can't play a square and if i do the coach gonna blow the whistle and give it to the team so i've used things like that with higher potential younger players giving them certain things within training that all right i'm not telling everyone else i'm just telling you to help you in your development because when you get up to training the first team hopefully the expectation from those first team players those number 10s and those 9s and those wingers they want the ball quickly so if you're a central midfield player and you're receiving it from four backs and centre backs and you're playing back and square they're gonna get frustrated and they're gonna get on you so how can you be in the best position possible so that when you go up you're ready to succeed from a tech attack standpoint but then from a mental and emotional standpoint as well and and trying to prepare younger players for yeah like critical professionals that late 20s early 30s that are used to certain things and how again how are they what are they expected from their teammates from a work ethic standpoint from a technical tactical standpoint and for me again i i love my time in Orlando because i i go back now sometimes and delivered hundreds of sessions and there were days Gary where i would be in with the first team in the morning as an assistant i would go and help with they had a PDL team i would go and help the PDL team after the first team in the evening i'd be going and coaching with the 16s or the 18s so i'm going through days where i'm in and around three different training sessions absolutely exhausted by the end of the day and times when you're like like where's where's this going and i look and it was invaluable just purely by just doing hours and hours of sessions and you just figure out who you are as a coach who you are as a leader um and again what sessions work what don't work what the players like what don't they like just and then just constantly taking the temperature like what are the what are the group need right now where are they at is it do they need me getting into them about certain details with our defensive structure and shape and our pressing or is it they've had enough of that this week we're going to set you up in a in a game there's they know what the expectations behavior of stand back observe let them play and i again i just got back so i think it just comes through experience and just purely just coaching hours obvious question but you mentioned kakai earlier what was it about when you saw him up close or in a daily basis what made you say the way handled himself when that's why he is where he is so he was the first one in the gym every single morning and he was probably one of the last ones to leave in the afternoon so he brought with him his own physical trainer from brazil um so again that was the first year at all and it was actually my first year of full-time coaching um the club had just transitioned from usl to mls he's obviously the main marquee sign in um and then you you hear certain whispers and rumors of this guy's top incredible human being really humble really respectful really friendly top professional so you start to hear all these things but then you're like all right what does it really look like and as i said he he was see less was his was his personal his physical condition training guy was was in the gym i'm not kidding you would be in there for probably an hour before training theories of course ability exercises pilates yoga flexibility um then he would go through his route to eat have like a massage routine um different mobility um activities that he would go through just to make sure that his body was in the right position to then go and train and then again at that point Gary he was obviously he was right it was at the end of his career so naturally he wasn't he wasn't as quick and um and as explosive as what he was in his in his younger days excuse me um but just watching him in a passing drill and in in simple possession games everything he did was spot on his body shape his first touch and like we talk to the players a lot about like just how you pass the ball in a in a passing drill like zipping the ball along the surface inside of the foot really crisp really clean again first touch away from pressure everything all the little details that that you speak to players about he executed to an incredibly high level but it was so powerful for the rest of the group Gary because then all you have to the players are seeing it close up so they're seeing him in the gym early naturally now you've got a number of other players in and around the group especially younger ones going well that's what it takes to get to the highest level maybe i need to start doing that so i i'm now going to a lot of 30 minutes early than what i was doing before and you start to see they're starting to copy certain exercises that he's doing and then they start to speak to his physical trainer so then they start to get an idea right well i need to start doing this if i want to have a longer career um and again just those those habits those standards those behaviors that that he would that he would show in training um yeah it just it kind of just goes through the group and and it becomes it becomes a perfect example for coach because then the other players can just look and see well that that's how it should look um that's how you should behave if you want to be a top level professional so great great experience to see that close um question i had asked was um i want specifically where like with your seeing and being around your dad and obviously the the information he gets what they experience like how much have you taken from his training mentality or or approached it yeah it's it's an interesting one Gary because i think again a lot of people will ask me similar questions um based around dad and and i get it he's he's obviously been an incredibly successful coach um i think he coached over a thousand games and coached in the Premier League for a number of years and went through all the divisions um so i'm i'm naturally proud of him and i and i but i'm also really self-aware and i understand he's quite a polarizing figure because you'll get there's certain people that will be critical of his playing style and and then there'll be others that will have respect for his longevity and his ability to get results um and get the best out of place i think that one of the biggest things i've taken the probably one of the biggest bits of advice i've got from dad was early on just starting to coach and put sessions on he would always say there's there's a difference between putting on a session and coaching a session so he's like this loads of coaches out there that will put art that the the setup will look great and there'll be the cones are clean and the mannequins are in the right spot and the polls and and everything's really professional which is a huge huge value to that but then the session starts and maybe it starts to break down and it goes wrong and coaches don't say anything and okay well at what point are you gonna now start to deliver a message now do you start to realize that maybe you need to add a condition or two it might not be used stopping it and coaching verbally but maybe now you need to understand there needs to be an extra tweet regarding a touch restriction or some an extra zone here or whatever it might be to get out a behavior of what you want from that session so that's something i've always been quite intentional with gary is making sure it's always stuck in my mind is make sure i'm coaching a session so there's there's an objective to it but the players understand why we're doing it but then what are you going to do within that to make sure you're putting the players in the best position possible to get that out and it's not just the session looks great but then the players leave the session and they don't really take anything from it so that's something i've taken for him and then like the obvious one again with his incredible attention to detail i'd like to think i've i've taken a lot from him regarding that um he's been big on i think creating situations and training that are real and making sure that it always relates back to the 11v11 game um work ethic standards discipline commitment like what you'd class as really old school values that i still think are really prevalent in a modern day game um irrespective of of how the game has evolved and techno-logical changes and and all the different tools that we have to our disposal our disposal and our coaches those sort of standards and values um on a human level i think i've i've tried to make sure that i've always coached with but then there's also loads of things that i'll be honest gary i i don't agree i maybe don't agree with him on um the way that maybe he would structure his training week the way the way that some of his training sessions would look i i wouldn't do them now personally and that's what again i always try and go back to as a coach how can we steal certain things from coaches so again i'd like to think i'm really curious and have this growth mindset and want to continue to learn and get better so you always look at how can you take certain things from different people all right i might take that i might take that how does that look for me maybe i adapted a little bit to my style but then you also learn a lot of what not to do as well and that's not me being disrespectful but that's just again who are you as a person who are you as a human being as a coach as a leader so that whatever you're delivering it's authentic to you and your style so i i would be silly not to tap into my dad's experience and knowledge because he's been there and everything that i'm going through and and will continue to go through as a coach he's probably experienced it um don't want to bore you but how do you like how do you deal with owners and sporting directors and agents and dealing with the media like he's been there and he's he's had those experiences and when you've got a father that's done that you'd be silly not to tap into it but i would still like to think that there's a lot of the things that that i believe in maybe aren't quite in his playbook if you like yeah i bet there's a i bet there's a good discussion look after dinner discussions that uh yeah yeah there's certainly some good healthy disagreement sometimes where i'm where i might where i might have to call him a dinosaur now and again but we we laugh about it yeah call it um you can you can hear that you've got a obviously a great level of empathy for coaches and respect for the just a crap the coaching i imagine and this is another area that i don't think we talk about enough and i think it's really interesting and you know the final whistle goals and it can be a very very lonely job uh particularly when the when the result doesn't go your way um all that abuse uh in person and then social media how how do you do you have any processes currently post-game or Pablo or how you manage and maneuver around that process yeah i think it it comes down to you getting a quick understanding of again if you're an assistant of what what the head coach what his reactions are to to wins and losses and draws um and understanding do they want space where just let them be and let them have a little bit of a rant and just keep your mouth shut or do they want you to start to provoke discussion um now i don't again i just think for each individual in question here it's gonna change um for us it's actually been there's been certain games where it's been more of a discussion but we're waiting for Pablo to to start the discussion a week or so ago we actually watched a little bit of the game back now as an assistant it's not your job there to think that process is correct or incorrect your job in that moment is to provide support and i've been fortunate to obviously have sat in both seats as a head and as an assistant and i think having a group of staff that are there to support you um whether you want space and time and silence whether you want heated discussion um whether you want to watch a little bit of the video i just think you have to show a real large amount of empathy Gary in these situations and ultimately it's what the head coach wants um that's gonna keep him sane at that moment in time and then obviously as you start to debrief one or two days after i always think things are clearer for me personally i i think in those moments it just needs to be space decompress breathe if you want to have a little bit of discussion great but for everybody in the room to understand that emotions are high and certain things it might get said in that room might not turn out to be completely correct or accurate once you've kind of watched the game back in the cold light of day um so i don't know if i've answered the question clearly enough but i do i just think there needs to be this real empathy and understanding of what is the head coach want um taking the temperature and and making sure that he feels supported um in that moment um which i think at the end of the day is the most important role of an assistant um especially when maybe the result hasn't gone your way i think it's i think it's so interesting like i think that's a brilliant answer but i think it's a lot i think it's an art to be when you can you can go down a path of you know if if you antagonize or or go the other way with that that could you do more harm than good you've been there for a while yeah no i always i always feel that if if you not not necessarily disagree gary but i think if there's something in the game that you feel is a real point of emphasis that needs to be looked at and corrected i always feel that the monday morning is probably the best time to address that um i just think once the emotions have calmed down and everybody's had just time to stew on it because again it things can get emotional and things can get said and then you start to get people feeling different feelings and where's everyone's motives at and so i again just me personally i always think that that just needs to be a space maybe you have a running you say some things get you some things off your chest um but i in with the real detail and and the specifics of probably more strategy game plan in game changes i just think those things and you need a little bit more time to stew on them uh and have those conversations when everybody's in probably more of a stable emotional state on a on a monday or a tuesday or whenever your first day back in at the offices what's your post game like your day after or maybe you just said there about you know watching the game like do you have a process for 24 hours where you go through and sit down and yeah yeah so i'll always watch the game back if we play on a Saturday um i'll always watch the game back on a sunday depending on what my day looks like with my family um usually it'll probably be a sunday evening where i'll i'll watch the game back um and sometimes it's it's taken me up to three hours to watch it back to be honest because you're i'll clip and you and you're rebind and you look at certain things and you want to make sure that you've got certain moments of the game pulled out for the analyst to potentially dress up to show in the in the in the recap when we're next in things to talk to Pablo about um but then just to make sure that when you are communicating your thoughts that you're really clear um so i'll always watch the game back we actually get sent quite a lot of of data on the sunday who will get you will usually get that sent on a sunday morning um as so like performance metrics but then we'll also get GPS data sent i don't look at them until i've watched the game so what i don't want is i don't want to look at the stats um and then i've already started to build um an unconscious idea of what the game looked like and thoughts and so i want to watch the game just purely for the game once i've watched the game then i'll go and have a look at the stats and certain and certain metrics and okay does this support what i was seeing thankfully the majority of time is yes sometimes it might not be so then sometimes i might have to go all right well maybe i'll have to have another look at that tomorrow morning um so that's how we how we do it here is that the the staff is kind of split um out possession in possession um the coaches will kind of clip what they need to clip regarding their moment uh their their side of the ball um and then we'll kind of put all the clips together usually our week um restarts on a Tuesday so the players will get sunday monday off we'll have a um we'll have a staff call on a monday to debrief the game um as a collective that's technical staff and front office staff as well where we'll talk about the game plan um what went well what didn't go well um in-game changes personnel performances um kind of get our thoughts out as a staff which i think has been really healthy for us um and then Tuesday morning we'll deliver the the the debrief or the the recap on video to the to the team go through again some in possession some out possession some positives and then some potential areas of improvement but yeah i've always found again everyone's different going up again through the years of experience and figuring out what works for you i've always preferred to watch the game back um the day after again where you're in a little bit more of an emotional or sorry stable emotional state um and then you've got stats and metrics to go okay well back can support us um regards to how we want the game to look for us in in the different moments all right last last three for you the elington post that you had recently about three cops professional personal family um yeah very very difficult in in elite level football to to those three cops usually it's one of them's overflowing um yeah how how do you do it oh it's incredibly difficult i would like to think i've got a little bit better as i've got older um i think just being intentional about making sure that when i'm with my family i'm with them and i'm present and i'll be honest with you Gary it's it's way more difficult when you're a head coach because it is literally 24/7 you've got 101 things going through your mind um as an assistant it's it's a little bit easier to switch you don't have the constant stream of of people wanting you for for media uh players got a family issue certain players gonna have to go for a scan because they've got an injury you've got a sporting director that wants to talk about uh something so that it it's been it's been probably a little bit easier as an assistant regards to family um i've got two young children i've got a nine-year-old boy an 11-year-old daughter and um i've got a wife that's incredibly supportive that as we've moved states three or four times an hour in the last 12 years since we've been here and i think that again is is so important for coaches is to have a have a supportive and an understanding family and my boy is is football mad so i try and make sure i take him to as many of his training sessions and get to as many as games as possible my daughter's big into a dance and gymnastics so anytime i can even just drop her off at dance and just spend 10 minutes in the car with her for me is invaluable um and obviously same same with my wife now the kids have gone back to school hopefully on the day off i'll be able to to go and have lunch with my wife at some point and spend some some better time with her and so just i think for me it's again this constant self-reflection um i've found journaling to be to be important as well and and just to try and every now and again just catch yourself okay if i made sure i've spent enough time with the kids when i'm with them am i present but then i'm ambitious i want to i want to try and be the best coach i can possibly be so in order to do that there's certain sacrifices that i know need to be made regarding just hours as we know what working at the professional level is extremely demanded um the hours that you're arriving the hours that you're leaving incredibly unsociable it's not a normal job the travel that we have to go through here in the states as well is is extensive um and then when i'm in work obviously making sure that i'm executing my responsibilities to the best of my ability but then how can i continue to grow as well um and and this is i've i heard it from from a couple of different people that contacts at different clubs of people trying to almost pigeonhole a certain amount of hours a week that is purely for their self-development um so maybe it might be on a on a friday afternoon for me for example when the work's done for the week how can i maybe spend an hour or two watching an arsenal game for example it might be reading a book um every morning when i go for my workout i'm listening to a different podcast so how can i continuously make sure that i'm improving and developing whilst giving my best to realsalt lake or the club that i'm working at and then trying to make sure that i'm spending quality time with my family because that's still the most important thing for me i don't know the right answer i don't i can't sit here and say i've got it right gary because i'm sure if you spoke to my wife or kids they'd probably tell you i haven't um but i think just again through experiences you just trying to be a little bit more intentional about filling up those three cups and yeah even like someone was asking you the day how many times you play golf in salt lake i would love i love golf i haven't played so how can i how can i maybe get a few hours for me to now go and play golf just for my own mental health i use the my morning hour or 45 minutes in the gym as as me is almost like i'm ticking a box for my mental health my physical health i'm listening to a podcast so i'm trying you try and multitask and again i don't know what the answer is it's different for everybody um but i just think for our yeah for our mental health and our our sanity it's so important that we we try and get this balance and you hear stories of of coaches that don't have that are really well respected high profile coach i asked him how do you get balance and he said there isn't any balance if you want to get to the top your family and your um your personal life you have to park now certain people will agree with that certain people will disagree with that so it's just really interesting even like i remember seeing an interview with Bobby Robson um and someone was asking him what about his life and his career and he said that one of his biggest regrets he didn't spend enough time as kids now really interesting reflection and and for me now you go okay well how can i make sure that i don't i'm not missing out on my chart my kid's growing up the flip side of that is would Bobby Robson have got to the level he got to had he have spent more time with his kids we'll never know i think we've probably got an idea what the answer might be so it's what are you willing to give up what do you want and i always try and go back to like my purpose as a human being i want to be the best father the best husband and and the best coach i can be so how do i continuously keep trying to fill up in in those areas and i don't know if i've got the right answer and i would love to hear from people that that feel like they have and and how it looks differently yeah yeah i think that we could do a separate podcast on this one of course of course yeah the phone ringing again uh i've seen it of the the general manager role and not to say again with empathy a very very hard role you've got investors you've got boards so that person that's facilitating in there is is another layer of communication for a head coach but i'm sure a lot of people because of such a new role are dealing with growing pains of someone who might have an opinion or someone who might have a difficulty seeing it from their perspective what advice not necessarily go into your own experiences but generally what advice would you have for someone on managing up effectively yeah there's a few things to this gallery it's a really it's a great topic we just think with the right at the beginning first question you asked about changes and in in coaching over the years and a player and i think what probably one of the things i didn't speak about was the amount of layers now i mean specifically at our club we have obviously an ownership group um there's a sporting director there's a technical director there's an assistant general manager um so you've got just more people involved that you have to report to um i think the first thing is alignment so i think before you go in and this is something i've learned first hand and i won't go into too much detail but i think going in somewhere you have to be really clearly aligned on what success looks like so are you on the same page with your cultural values are you on the same page with what you want the training environment to look like are you on the same page with how you expect players to be treated are you on the same page with recruitment with style of play because i think so many times and i hear you speak to different cultures and people around the game that just want a job and they're maybe not aligned and as i said i've experienced this close hand as well and it ends in tears mate because quickly once you get into the rhythm of games and then pressure starts to build because there's points at stake and fans aren't happy and there's a social the people on social media are complaining and maybe you're not in the position of the table you want it to be in because they're because you're not singing off the same hymn sheet you're not aligned so i do think one of the most important questions any young coach can ask a sporting director technical director and owner is what does success look like what are your expectations of me what do you want from me on a daily basis so that again you're going into it eyes wide open and i think if you really really open and honest and transparent and you're on the same page going in then you can hold that those standards and those values and those expectations you can hold each other accountable to those if if not then it becomes extremely difficult the other thing i think with this is is we have to as coaches understand that again social media pressure owners want success they want results same sporting directors they've all got big egos i think sometimes you have to just shut your mouth and open your ears and that's again for me over just lessons learned is the power of listening the power of like understanding you've got two ears and one mouth for a reason so if they want to have a rant and they want to give their opinion let them have it sometimes the worst thing you can do is go back and argue and then it becomes confrontational so i think understanding that close your mouth open your ears let them have their space to talk and then we actually just touched upon it actually with with like with data and statistics and i think coaches you can use that to your advantage at times because again i think for example a club director or an owner and you've just lost a game too nil but you actually played well maybe somebody switched off of a set play a referee made some mistake you've actually done a lot of things well in the game but the outcome hasn't gone your way and you have to take a phone call or you have to sit in a meeting where you get all these things thrown at you if you can have facts and evidence there to go actually we actually performed well today like our KPIs were met a couple of things that maybe didn't go our way and i've found through experiences that can be really powerful and an owner can actually go because the majority of owners like numbers they like staff they like data they like factual evidence they can actually go hmm he's actually got a point here then you start to educate as well and i think again there's so many different things that go into this and educating maybe certain people that don't have experience of professional football in certain scenarios again is massively important but just good old communication and understanding that your role as a head coach sometimes is going to be to take flak you're taking flak from the media you're taking flak from the fans you're going to take flak from owners and you have to be resilient if you wait for us to be to have a long career and have longevity you have to be resilient you have to have thick skin you have to understand you're going to get criticized and you have to be big enough and strong enough and bold enough to accept it and then at times go okay great but i'm so strong in my beliefs and what i think you're going to allow or give this team the best chance will be successful and you keep driving forward yeah it's part of the most overlooked thing like we all as a coaching community adore pep guariola but it gets overlooked how much he stood he stood whenever he got a lot of noise around when he arrived at city yeah exactly yeah no i think blocking out the noise gary's huge because as as we said at the beginning there's so much of it now again even like just for players players have got so much available to them now like why scout platforms clips you hear stories about players having individual coaches away from the training ground that are going through clips with them that there's so much available like the the analysis now that you watch the the english premier league for example and the analysis that goes before and during and after and and we forget players are watching that as well so they like a lot of them maybe think that they've got all the answers um and like your your man on the street fans that will go down pub and watch the game and again everybody and that's again what makes this game brilliant is there's so many different opinions there's so many different ways of doing it everybody thinks they've got all the answers um and we as coaches are the ones that are in the in the thick of it um and knee-deep in it sometimes and and that's again you have to just you have to accept it for me it's your pocket um listen to the people that of the opinions that people that you trust in and around your own environment um and believe your own eyes of what you're seeing in training every day and through your own game footage um as i said and and stick and being authentic and and being true to who you are because i think the other things as well you start to go off track and maybe start to to do things that that maybe aren't authentic to you and players are not stupid Gary like they'll they'll sniff it out and smell it straight away Anthony outstanding thank you so much no brilliant matter really enjoyed that thank you thank you thank you (upbeat music)