Rabbi Joey Soffer Shiurim
Bava Batra daf 83
Good morning everybody. Today is September 16th. We are in Daf Pei Gimmel. Right? Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So we stopped here near the top. Right? We had this conversation between Abhayyeh, Rev. Yossaf and Rev. Nahman, about the size of how much land in between the trees does they need to be in order for the guy to get the land. So, Rev. Yossaf said between 4 and 8, and Rev. Nahman said between 8 and 16. Okay? And then Abhayyeh jumped in, and he said, "Don't disagree with Rev. Nahman, because there was a Mishnah that held like him." Right? He courted that Mishnah about the guy who grew the vineyard, and he turned the bushes into the middle. I played it on the sides, it was 16, I want to play it. And then he turned it out the other way, the year after that. Right? And then Abhayyeh, it said back, "I don't know, I know it's my ascetia." This is what happened, and the came-but-guy told him, after the coming-dah-buh-dah, we started the day with Piggimul. After the coming-dah-buh-dah-buh-mala, Zil Havelikimul-bakar. Right? He told him, the guy came to the case, he told him, where was it? He told him, "I don't know where to go. I don't know where to go. I don't know where to go." He told him, "I don't know where to go. I don't know where to go. I don't know where to go." He told him, "I don't know where to go. I don't know where to go. I don't know where to go." He told him, "I don't know where to go. I don't know where to go. I don't know where to go." (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Okay, so it says, I don't know, very nice bishna, (speaking in foreign language) That's what he said. So we have this (speaking in foreign language) How much space in between the trees? Between four to eight, (speaking in foreign language) Eight to 16 (speaking in foreign language) Says, and we quoted a bishna for that (speaking in foreign language) source, about the 16 (speaking in foreign language) with the guy who was the vineyard at the place and he pushed it this way, that way, remember? Okay. So then he says, okay, wait. And I says, not so fast. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Where? So like this. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Okay, here you go. If it's eight, I'm, if it's eight, I'm more, you printed your kit, your kit, and the rows are eight, I'm more apart, you'll have to plant wheat in between. Remember, 'cause we said four up to eight, that included eight. So if they ate, they're not a kit, they're not a kit, they're not a kit, they're not a kit, they're not a kit. So here, here's a bishna, it says, you'll have to plant them to do it. So even eight, more than eight is too far already. It's too, and therefore you wouldn't get the land in between. Here, have your civil rights support. Okay, so then have come up by, yeah, it says, hey, why, why, why, why don't you, you know, why don't you, why, why, why, why don't you follow? Don't, all you have not, man. Here, have your civil rights a bishna also. Right? (speaking in foreign language) What is that? (speaking in foreign language) What was the man said that we had? (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) I thought so, but then with that, with support, what do you mean, I wouldn't say, I feel lucky. (speaking in foreign language) I feel lucky, did Chalmon-- (speaking in foreign language) That was the case before. That was the first case. (speaking in foreign language) Okay, I feel lucky, meaning if I was saying, (speaking in foreign language) In the case of the vineyard, there was 16, I'm what, they were pushing the bushes back and forth. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Okay. (speaking in foreign language) Because the rabbis gave a head tear for that specifically. Right? (speaking in foreign language) I'll be here, I heard a guy say, (speaking in foreign language) I had a sack that was built out at 16 or more. Right? (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) So we have still the hook it over here. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Okay, so now, according to Naviosa's opinion, which was from four to eight. He says, "I have source for the Naviosa, both for the four and for the eight." Okay, which we're gonna see right now. The eight one, he just quoted, the Mishnah. Right? If you played your vineyard eight, eight, right? That's the max distance. Even the minimum distance of four, we also have a source four, which we're gonna quote in a second. And the question that's coming up is, (speaking in foreign language) we only have the 16, we don't have the eight. Remember, he says from eight to 16, the 16, we saw the Mishnah. But when you get the eight from it, Naviosa actually has a four source and eight source, which we're gonna see right now. And Naviosa is missing one of the sources. That's the question coming up. - But I thought I just, didn't I just get rid of it on yourself's concept because of the four to eight because I have a mat in the Masai. - That was Abaye. Why Abaye told the Naviosa, "If don't listen to it, don't argue on it." (speaking in foreign language) - Right. (speaking in foreign language) - Okay, let's see. So he's like this. (speaking in foreign language) We're still trying to figure it out. (speaking in foreign language) Naviosa was following the Mishnah once opinion. (speaking in foreign language) We know the max distance of spreading out, which is eight. (speaking in foreign language) The closest distance, which is four. (speaking in foreign language) The eight, we quoted already. The Mishnah that we saw a minute ago, right? (speaking in foreign language) The closest, the four did none. There is a source. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) If it's less than four amot spaces between the rows, it's not called a vineyard. Not called a vineyard. And therefore, for less than four together, we would not consider them to be, you wouldn't get the land between, 'cause you can't call it a field. - Yeah, but that's not proof. It's not 48. It's less than four. - No, that's a mean. Which means add four. Why is it called a vineyard? But it means many gets the four, it's already a kidding. - Right, but it doesn't prove I can do anything with that kidding. - No, it does not the point. The point is, remember, our conversation is when I sell trees, how much distance in between the trees can I call that piece in the middle of a piece, a field? So now I know it's four. Over here it says, if it's less than four, it's not a vineyard. Oh, so it's a four, it's a vineyard. Ah, so in between, is it four enough to already call it its own distinct item? So my trees that I sold you are four amot amot, I would get the land in between. - Didn't we start this whole conversation with saying that the cadm, shiny, cadm, it's different in terms of the rows and the way they set it up and the space that we need versus Elon? - Nope, I don't remember that. Why would we say that? - I thought we had it with the gears, I hope. - I don't think so. Did I remember? - I just took a little bit of it. - Nope, not so late. Only halfway down the page. (laughing) - Well, for that. (laughing) - Okay, so we have a source now for daviosis, four. The four is, if the vineyard is planted for a less than four amot away from each other, the rows, it's not called a vineyard, but should matter that if it's four or more, it's a vineyard. (speaking in foreign language) No, no, it is a vineyard. (speaking in foreign language) We just ignore the middle rows. Fine. But bottom line is we're following the bichimon according to the gosef, and it's clearly four. So we have an eight source for the bichimon, and we have a four source. (speaking in foreign language) From four to eight has a bichina on both sides. (speaking in foreign language) He holds a bichina, and he holds me fuzareen, (speaking in foreign language) The source for spread out, we learned. We saw the bichina yesterday. It's on the bottom of pay bet and we bet. We saw the 16. It's there, right? (speaking in foreign language) Where did he get the eight from? He said, minimum eight maximum, 16. Where did he get the eight? Right? - Yeah. - Ma says, (speaking in foreign language) No, no, it's a sweater. Why is a sweater? Me neither did a bichimon on (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Okay, the bichimon has explicit four to eight, and therefore, the minimum size is half the maximum size. So, he says the same thing with a kha'mi more arguing, the minimum size for the kha'mi will be half the maximum size, the maximum size I have a bichina, it's 16. So eight, that's his sweater, okay? (speaking in foreign language) Finally, (speaking in foreign language) How much land, how much space in between the trees? (speaking in foreign language) Minimum size is four, maximum size is 16. (speaking in foreign language) We chose the minimum size for the maximum size from kha'mi. Ma says, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) If that was the size of the distance in between the trees, you get the tree, the land under the tree, and the land in between it, obviously. (speaking in foreign language) If the tree died, (speaking in foreign language) It was chopped down, (speaking in foreign language) You would get land, and you would be able to replant. (speaking in foreign language) Less than four, (speaking in foreign language) More than 16. (speaking in foreign language) You bought them individually one at a time, not buying them in one fell swoop. (speaking in foreign language) You don't get the land, right? And therefore, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) You don't get the trees in between them, the small ones. (speaking in foreign language) And local period. So basically, it's like you have to say that what we did, we knocked out the (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Was a (speaking in foreign language) And instead of going with this (speaking in foreign language) We have a mission now, we have to go with this (speaking in foreign language) Forget the (speaking in foreign language) We have a mission now that says four, we have a mission now that says 16, (speaking in foreign language) - But technically, the eight still works. - The eight also work, 'cause it's a compass, now it's a compass inside the-- - It's 40, 16. - It's 40, 16, exactly. - Okay, fine. - Okay, that's the, that's the (speaking in foreign language) If the trees are less than four or more, you don't get the land. If they're more than 16, you don't get the land. Anything between four and 16, you get the land. Okay, now we have a couple of questions about that. (speaking in foreign language) You're telling me now 16 (speaking in foreign language) Well, the tree is normally a normal tree is wide at the base of the trunk. And as it gets higher, it gets narrower. So when I'm measuring the 16, is that from the trunk? 'Cause that's gonna be, if I measure up top, that's more than 16 away, right? So where am I measuring from? The top, meaning the trunk needs to be less, a lot less than 16, then in order that, when I measure top is 16, or at the bottom 16, I don't care the top is further away, where we measuring, these tree goes like this, right? It goes like this. So that's a (speaking in foreign language) You measure from the narrow part, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) So what does that mean? Look down into the bottom. (speaking in foreign language) It's like six lines to those medium size lines. (speaking in foreign language) I wanna do, what do you call it, a grafting. When a graft, I take a young vine, graft it onto the older gift entry, okay? (speaking in foreign language) Now I'm gonna come measure, these four amote of the ketone that you told me, where do I measure from? (speaking in foreign language) Can they shoot stein, can they get stein, right? The heart it says on nav, which is the way you have to plant, we have to have to have five, right? You have to have five great plants to be considered vineyard. So it's the four dots, like the number four on the dice, and then one sticking out on the bottom, right? (speaking in foreign language) One sticking out. So where do we measure this, to consider this four amote away? So it says (speaking in foreign language) What does that mean? (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) I go from the second, not in the branch, not the first one, the lowest one, the second one, which means somewhere along the middle of the tree is where you're going to measure. So along the middle of the vine, is where you're gonna measure these four amote for the grapes, and the same would be all for all trees, which basically says we're averaging it out over here. How wide is the tree at the bottom? We're gonna measure for the middle of the tree, right? Somewhere along the middle, that we're gonna measure this 16 amote number, fine. So that's what he says. We're inside again. Okay, he says (speaking in foreign language) That's the answer. Okay, so we better measure for the middle of the tree. (speaking in foreign language) So when I sold you three (speaking in foreign language) What does that mean? Look at that, it's my second wide line. (speaking in foreign language) So the tree had two shoots, right? And all three shoots, okay. And now what happened is that the shoots were coming out of the trunk, but there was a lot of fertilizer there covering it. It looks like it was coming out of the ground. So do you get the land in between that now or not? One from the trunk went this way, one went that way, one went this way, and they covered it, they really are the trunk, but you can't see it 'cause it's covered. When the guy bought it, that's how they were, does he get the land around those or not? That's the question. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Well, you could take one of the branches and bend it down into the ground. And once it goes to the ground, it'll start to grow its own roots. And once it does that, you cut it off the tree and now you have another tree. So over here was (speaking in foreign language) I stuck them down, they cut a hand in an in, but they still attached, I didn't cut them, the roots grew, but they still attached to the trunk. Is that three trees or one tree now? That's the question basically, right? But I have these new roots that stuck, but they're all going back to the trunk, but there's new roots. I didn't detach, if I detach it in the trunk for shorts and new tree, it has its own roots, but it's still attached, is that one or three? That's this question. (speaking in foreign language) Okay, so he says clearly, even though they're still attached, we would look at them at three separate trees, okay? And therefore, we'd say the same thing (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Yeah, it's like three trees. That would be the same thing. That's correct. (speaking in foreign language) I sold you two in the field. That was, 'cause that's the bishim ones opinion. I don't even disagree with that number, but the point is that even though they're still attached to the tree, we're treating it like they're not. The four to eight is the number when they detach. So even though they're still attached, we're still using the same number, which means since they grew roots, we look at them like they knew trees, even though it's still attached to the trunk. Okay, (speaking in foreign language) Yeah, (speaking in foreign language) I sold you two trees in my field. (speaking in foreign language) One was on the border. Does that mean now you get the land in between? Oh, that's not, 'cause it's not in my field anymore. You don't really get the land in between them. - Right. - Mao. (speaking in foreign language) I sold you three, one, two, and my neighbor right next door sold you one. Do you get the land in between them now? (speaking in foreign language) Okay? Bye. (speaking in foreign language) What about born Mao? (speaking in foreign language) What if there's a well in between the three trees? I sold you three trees with the right size that we get the land in between, but there's a well in the middle. Does that mean that that now disconnects that land? Does the land be continuous all the way through in between the trees? (speaking in foreign language) What if I have a stream running through, all right? (speaking in foreign language) What if I sold you three trees, but in the middle of those trees, I had some bumps. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) What if a sea tree started to grow in between the three trees that I sold you? (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) It grew, he already owned it. What's the name? It's the new guys. What's the question? A new tree started to grow in the land that anybody bought before? What kind of question is that? (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) What if there was a sea tree in between? I sold you palm trees, peach trees, whatever. And in between those three, there was one sea tree. (speaking in foreign language) You get the trees in between the land. (speaking in foreign language) I sold you those three trees and whatever's in that spot, I get. So there was a sea tree? I got to see the tree. - It has to be something different here than what we learned, though, because we learned that the sea tree and the, (speaking in foreign language) will be excluded when I'm selling fields, right? - No, bitulata sikmaa, it wasn't the sea tree. It was dana sikmaaa and bitulata sikmaa and what was the other one? - There's edits. - I don't think so. - There was the sea tree. - I don't think so. - So it takes a very long time to grow. - Was cedar? I don't think it was, was it? - No, I thought it was sikmaaaa. - I thought. - No, it was not. It was Haru. - Haru. - It's caribs. - Caribs, caribs. - It wasn't edits. - It's not. - It was the highest caribs. - So you hear the fiduciism then that even if it's a sea tree. - It's actual wood. - It's considered, it's still any line. - Correct. - Like everything else, it would be moustache for the line. - You got it. - Got it. - Okay. (speaking in foreign language) Okay, well, okay, so now I think Victor, you asked this question yesterday, Victor. When you say I'm selling three trees, what's the configuration of these three trees? They're in a triangle shape, they're in a straight line, or Ezra was asking me yesterday. Alberto, I heard it was rockin' and rollin' this night. Whatever, next time you invite the rabbi, yeah, I'm better. Okay. - What's up? - What's up? - No, no, no, I should've come. Maybe you shouldn't invite me every day. (laughing) Okay. (laughing) Okay, yeah, anyway, it's okay, I couldn't come anyway. My wife is still in the year for our father. I'm just teasing you, okay? I wouldn't ask to come, don't worry about it. I'm just, anyway, so I'm just teasing you, Javier, okay? Don't worry, okay, you more help me out? Look at this shirt, it's making me think of your word. Isn't that the key shirt, I just put it on the screen? Oh, I just got it. (laughing) I love you, Alberto, okay. (speaking in foreign language) How is the configuration of these trees? (speaking in foreign language) Rob says in the straight line, which is what Ezra wanted to say, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) That's the triangle. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) According to the opinion, he says, if the trees are in a straight line, of course, it's more dare that you would get the land if they were in a triangle. And in a triangle, it's much easier to understand when you say the land in between the trees. But they're in a straight row. So this little patch, this little patch, this little patch, this little patch, but that's our opinion, yes. According to Schwell, no, it's a triangle only. So the one who, like Rob, would for sure agree to Schwell if they were in a triangle, you get the land in between. - It's a triangle, it's round. But the triangle get much more. - No, no, of course. (speaking in foreign language) - No, it's more dare, if you get much more land. - Right. - No, it's a triangle. - I think I'll be saying, I think I'll be saying, I think. - Yeah, it's a two in one. - Take the more. - Correct. (speaking in foreign language) - I would say, no, no, no. Only if it's a triangle, right? (speaking in foreign language) So again, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) who says straight line, of course agrees to Schwell if it's a triangle, you get the land in between the triangle. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) If it's straight, look, you don't get any land. - It's more. - No land. (speaking in foreign language) What's the reason? 'Cause you can plant in between, right? So that's the reason that it's easy to plant in between them. (speaking in foreign language) Meaning, what's the reason, according to what's the reason, meaning you told me the reason why Schwell disagrees to love, that when they're straight, that you don't get the land in between, is because the owner of the field, it's very easy for him to plant in between. He's just going straight, he's going back and forth, and he just goes in between the trees, and he plants his stuff. Which means that when they're a triangle, the reason why you want to give the field Schwell when it's triangle, 'cause it's too hard for the guy to work around the trees to get into that area in between, so that's why you're giving it, is that what you're saying? (speaking in foreign language) You can't go into the middle, (speaking in foreign language) If that's true, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) If you saw them in these three kinds of bushes, whatever they are, that you can't get in between because they have thorns, right? So now, even if they're straight, and you can't plow in between, because they're thorny and stick out all over the place, then the guy gets to land now because you can't plant in between. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Those bushes are in, that's not important, that's not important. (speaking in foreign language) That's too criteria, it has to be a shoe, and difficult to plant in between, right? No one's buying just those bushes over there, then of course you're not getting land for the bushes, it has to be a shoe, and hard for the owner, previous owner to plant in the area, that's when he'll get to land, fine. - I had a question, I had a little quick, real quick. - Go ahead. - It's almost impossible to have three trees straighten in a row. - Does one point, one point. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. - In other words, if one tree sticks out just a little bit, you have a little. - No, no, no, no, it doesn't mean like that, I mean, it's close enough, I mean, it doesn't mean exactly, there's no such thing, it doesn't mean exactly. It's just planted in a row, it doesn't have to be, it's not. - In a state, it's not, it doesn't mean exactly what you're trying to say is. - Go to an orchard, an orchard, all the trees will plant them the same day, and they plant the same day, they're all straight in a row, they're all about the same size, that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about scattered all over the place, right, obviously. You're talking about if it's all by a centimeter, no, they will not make that dick like that. - Yeah, exactly, okay, fine. - No, I got it, I got it, I got it. - The chladymazittisim, they want to be perfect, everything has to be perfect. - We always have to be perfect. - Exactly. - Yes, I know, I know. (speaking in foreign language) If you sold the head, but then we're talking about after I've slaughtered the animal, I've slaughtered the cow, I sold the head, you don't get the legs. (speaking in foreign language) If you sold the legs, they don't come with the head. (speaking in foreign language) You sold the trachea, which over here means the lungs, 'cause that's how they attach it, they get the lungs to come together with it, right? (speaking in foreign language) You didn't get the liver. (speaking in foreign language) You sold the liver, (speaking in foreign language) you don't get the lungs. (speaking in foreign language) It's a small animal, it's a goat, it's a sheep. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) You sold the head, you didn't get the legs, you sold the legs, you didn't sell the head, okay? (speaking in foreign language) You sold the trachea, which is the lungs, you got the liver also, (speaking in foreign language) You didn't get the lungs. (speaking in foreign language) There are four levels of people that sell things. (speaking in foreign language) I sold you good wheat, came out to be spoiled. (speaking in foreign language) I sold you bad ones, (speaking in foreign language) Turned out to be that they were great, I shipped you the wrong goods. (speaking in foreign language) I can retract the seller. (speaking in foreign language) I sold you bad ones, (speaking in foreign language) or (speaking in foreign language) and (speaking in foreign language) Nobody come back out, 'cause I gave you what we agreed to. (speaking in foreign language) I sold you red wheat, but you delivered you white wheat, or (speaking in foreign language) I sold you white, (speaking in foreign language) You got red, or (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) This is (speaking in foreign language) I sold you olive wood, it turned out to be, what do you call it, (speaking in foreign language) Or I sold you (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) I sold you wine, but it was vinegar, or I sold you vinegar, (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) Both people came back out, will continue tomorrow, (speaking in foreign language) I'm in, I'm in. - Nice.