This episode is brought to you by Honda. When you test drive the all-new Prolog EV, there's a lot that can impress you about it. There's the class leading passenger space, the clean, thoughtful design, and the intuitive technology. But out of everything, what you'll really love most is that it's a Honda. Visit Honda.com/ev to see offers. - When it comes to Cliff Kingsbury attacking the leverage of the New York Giants successfully, and also from a running standpoint, they did a phenomenal job creating extra gaps, pulling linemen and disguising their intentions pre-snap. They would use pre-snap motion one, two times, and the Giants would see it. It would get in their minds out. Nothing really happened while that pre-snap motion. Oh, this time we're gonna actually touch-pass it, and now you need to make a play. And credit to Andrew Phillips on the one touch pass that they successfully ran. He was able to spin off the guy and make the attack. All true Phillips was phenomenal in this game. There was another touch pass prior to that, which makes me think Andrew Phillips knew what was coming 'cause they put it on film, and then in the subsequent drive, he was able to stop it. Where Jane Daniels tried to touch-pass, it couldn't basically like bobble the football, and then he ended up just running for like a yard or maybe he got, quote unquote, sack. 'Cause the Giants, it doesn't seem like it, had five sacks in this game. You watch this, you're like, "Oh, wow, the Giants are really getting pressure on." No, they're not, because a lot of the sacks with Jane Daniels running around like a chicken with his head cut off, and then Andrew Phillips coming up and hitting him behind the line of scrimmage, technically a sack. - Yeah. - Like the one true sack, oh, sorry to cut you off. The one true sack that they had got negated 'cause of the defensive hold, which was a complete BS call. I can't believe they threw that. I think the only reason they threw that was 'cause it was old man Zacherts against the rookie, and they were just like, "Oh, the rookie probably grabbed him." It's like, "No, Zacherts initiated that contact." Andrew Phillips has every right to that space where he's in man coverage like that, but that's why you run tight man coverage, run those bunch releases 'cause sometimes the refs get over anxious, roll the freaking flag. - The refs anticipate calls a lot. The refs definitely anticipated what they thought. It's a much bigger problem than the NBA. One I watch, it's the most impossible to watch at times, but the NFL is bad too. One thing I love about this job, Nick, before we get into this too deeply is, or more in-depth is that people who listen to our show, Nick, they're like die-hard fans. They're the people who love the Xs and the NOs, the film, the Y. And so it leads to a lot of these offshoot conversations and DMs and that's probably my favorite part about doing what we do. And I had this conversation with somebody today, a listener of the show, and he was like straight up, point blank, I think if Wink Barndale was a coordinator of the Giants, we would've won that football game. And I think he's right. And it's not just to say that, sit here and say, Wink Barndale, some special defense according to the Giants, can't believe they let him out of their grasp 'cause he had his warts and he's having a tough time at Michigan right now. But in this specific game, and I mentioned this on yesterday's show, Nick, this was not the game to play soft, to play off coverage. This is not the game, this is the game where you need a specific game plan to attack this style of offense. And that game plan needs to have guys rallying around the line of scrimmage all game, all game around the line of scrimmage for multiple reasons. One, because of what you just said with how they're designing past game. Two, because as we saw, Jayden Daniels went down five times. There could have been more if you were just attacking him, relentlessly, all game. I watched Todd Bowles last week call a blitz on 79, I think it was 79% of the players last weekend, Jayden Daniels, and it fooled them. They didn't do anything. Yes, Washington at the end racked up some stats, but it was all garbage time shit. They didn't do anything when the game mattered. They couldn't move the ball. They got off the field all the time. They were punting all games, something they didn't do against Giants. So why as a defensive coordinator, are you not gonna be able to grab in a week's time a game plan that looks similar to what Bowles ran? I know it's not your defense. I know it's not your system, Jane Bowen, but it doesn't mean every game, you just run your same system out and hope that your guys execute your system better. Sometimes you need a game plan. When it's this defined, when Cliff Gangsbury's running the offense, that's this much bang right around the line of scrimmage and your quarterback is this new to the game, you need to have a specific game plan for him. So to me, the number one owners for this game fall, and I agree, Jayden, I've got a bad game, we're gonna get into some of this other stuff. Number one owners falls on the coordinator. You need to have a game plan specific to your opponent. It can't just be, I run my system every game. - I 100% agree, I hope, I hope it's just because there are a lot of young players on this team, and it's a new system and they're all learning it. I hope that's the case, 'cause if it's not, this isn't gonna last long, and Bowen might get run out of New York, because you're 100% accurate with everything you just said. If the Giants had a different game plan in here, let me bring up some of these plays, and I wanna talk about some of them as well, man. - And you're gonna show the listeners what you mean by playing soft in these plays. - Yeah, like where everyone is lined up around, there's just, look how far they are off the line of scrimmage. - They're all far off the line of scrimmage, the three by one set was the first play of the game. Daniels catches it. Now, this could've been a run play too. You can see, they design a lot of RPOs to give Jayden Daniels the option to hand the football off. They pull that backside guard. Jayden Daniels knows he's going to attack it. Why does he know he's going to attack? He doesn't even go into the mesh point, 'cause he sees the defense pre-snap. He sees how far back Deontay banks and the safety are, and that it's just an apex defender up there, and he has three eligible blockers on that side, with an offensive attack, who's gonna be climbing in that direction anyway, you have an unblocked defender on the line of scrimmage, who's not gonna be able to get his hand in the throwing lane. And you could see throughout the game, the Giants, whether it be Brian Burns or K-Von Thibodeau, aggressively try to get their hands into that throwing lane, saying knew this was coming. And I felt like Bowman adjusted and made those linebackers aggressively try to get out in the space, because this happened way too frequently, where they were able to catch the football, and you could see how the Andrew Phillips made this play right away, and I was like, yeah, that was excellent, but they kept going back to it, and the Giants never adjusted really all that much, other than telling the linebackers to flow out that they didn't adjust by pressing up on the line of scrimmage, 'cause again, that's not the system of Shane Bowen, so you have plays like this, like all right, you threw it to the number two before, I believe, I'm gonna throw it to the number one. - This play pissed me off so much, Nick, this was a second in three. - No, this is a third one. - Why are you playing this on a second in three? - This is a third in one. - Yeah, there was a second in three one as well. So again, there were a few plays where it was third in one, second in three, and they're off significantly with three wide receivers on that side, attack space. That's football 101 as you attack space, because there's not a lot of it in the NFL. There's not a lot of it. If you're gonna play this soft, it's just again, man, it's frustrating. I'm hoping that again, he's not this inflexible, and it was more just a product of the circumstances of being weak tune and a new system with young guys, but yeah, man, that's an easy five yards right there. - Look, the personnel's different. Have you watched a lot of Browns? You've seen some Browns film, right? The personnel's totally different. I get it, but I just watched the Browns play the Jags. - Here's the second in three, by the way. - This is the second in three, very similar play. - The same play. - Again, just too much space to give off the line of scrimmage on a second in three and a third in one. You need to be around the line of scrimmage, and I'm just making the point, but I just watched Trevor Lawrence for his Cleveland defense today for a show I did on CBS, Nick. And the Cleveland Browns are always around the line of scrimmage, dude. They're up on you, and sure, your system is, I don't want my corners playing press, fine. But there are other ways to do this thing. Like there's different ways to, I don't want to use that term. I was going to say to skin the cat. I feel like that's always like a weird term when people use that. I'm like, when was that popular? And like-- - Very appropriate right now. (laughing) - Like, what did that mean? Like, when was that popular, and what did that mean? But there's different ways to attack a defense in offense, but like, this was the game plan. Jaden Daniels, Cliff Kingsbury, where you need to be around the line of scrimmage all times playing up on them, and they just didn't do that. There's just so much space here. - Yes, absolutely, and Cliff Kingsbury realized it, and he leaned into it, right? Like leaning into it at this point, where he's like, all right, I'm just going to motion. I'm going to have a back to that side. I'm going to motion that back away. And what is that going to do? It's going to expand Micah McFadden. It expands Micah McFadden, and I'm just going to throw a screen again, and I'm going to kick my offensive lineman on the space. So you can see Brian Burns, knows his come Brian Burns tries to get over there. He just misses it. But again, why are your guys so far off? Like if I was on the beat this week, it'd be the first question I actually am going on Thursday. Like I'm not going to be there, but if I was there, I would ask him, like, what are you doing with the off leverage? Is it an adjustment you want to make? It's because of deep, all the stuff we're talking about right now, it's a perfect question to ask. - So you wouldn't ask him if he was worried about his job security? - Not, hey, I feel like that was a perfectly fair question from Pat. - I disagree. No, I like Pat Leonard outside of that, but I don't think it's a, it's a fine question to ask, it's just a stupid question to me, Nick. What is it gaining? Asking your head gun, aye, aye, aye. - It gets people talking, and that's what a lot of this-- - That's all it does. - It just gets people talking and leads to headlines and clicks. - Yeah, let's get back to this film though. Yeah, so again, man, look, this is what, you start upfield, you create space by starting upfield, watch the Giants defensive backs here, they're all back up. And now you have two blockers on the two, and you have three offensive linemen climbing there. You're creating an alley between the numbers and the scene with Micah McFadden now outside of the opposite scene because of that pre-snap motion. So Cliff was doing this the entire game, man, just messing with Shane Bowen and the defensive, look at that. That is a beautiful play by Washington, creates that entire space for this wide receiver to take it down almost all the way down to the 10-yard line. And they were able to do this quite often. - But you just ran three of those, Nick, and those weren't the only plays all game, right? And now I'm gonna ask you this question. When you watched the tape last week against Todd Bowles, were these available to Cliff in that game? - I watched the defense, so I only saw all of it. - You didn't watch Jayden, I got you, I got you, okay. - No, but I know Todd Bowles is a defense enough to understand what he does, his philosophy, he's very pressure, he's very high in aggressiveness. And if he's not, there is a lot of, I'm gonna be stick close to you, I'm not gonna be far off the line of scrimmage. We knew that worth in Shane Bowen, we knew this was gonna be a lot of two-read, two-high coverages where those safeties are gonna be in the middle of the field open. You might get some rotation post-snap, which is fine, but it's the space here. Again, look, you have the three receivers, a three-by-one set, Washington loves the three-by-one sets and the Giants love to play the three-by-one set from this kind of depth. And this is another beautiful play where you're gonna flare out all Cinekler and then all Cinekler's gonna come right back. And this is a way to attack the aggressive nature of Shane Bowen, 'cause Shane Bowen loves to, what does he always say? We wanna penetrate, we wanna be aggressive, we wanna get out the quarterback. I had no issue with that, but it felt like when the Giants were getting a little overzealous in that manner and not necessarily through the blitz, I think they only blitzed like 20, 23% of the snaps in this game. They're able to just work this little middle half-back screen right underneath all the defensive linemen who were aggressively flying over. And now you have, again, offensive linemen in space against the Cordell Flats of the world or your linebackers or your shapies if you're lucky enough. And it's a catch for Echler and Echler did not look old in this game, I'll tell you that much. He looked like he had burst and explosiveness all throughout the game. So these little quick plays, man, again, look how far off. - So far off. - And he got Luke McCaffrey using the slot. He's going to run at the defensive back. The defensive back's gonna capitulate space, right? It's gonna stay over the top of them. But they knew that the Giants were gonna play it in this way, where you just motion the number one Cordell Flats, I think that is the outside guy at this point. He's gonna gain space and no one's going to attack 14. Olamade Zacchaeus. This is easy for Jane Daniels. They made it very easy for him when it came to throwing the football and attacking the New York Giants defense for just four, five, six, seven yards. And that's one of the reasons why they had 10, 12, 15, 16, 18 play freaking drives, dude. - Right. Light it. One place you can hear a three-time national championship winning head coach. - A Heisman Trophy winning running back and national champion. - And someone to keep everything on the tracks. Every week, no Trevor Meyer running back Mark Ingram than me. 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That's 20% off plus free shipping with the code bigblue@manscaped.com. Stay on top of your grooming game and be ready for anything the season throws your way. - And this is just something, just to bring it back for a second. - One second, sorry, I know I've been talking a lot but I just wanted to take money for those who are listening on the podcast. I've showed about four or five plays in a row where it was screens to the outside, outside the numbers, one half back screen in the middle of the field. And then in the third quarter, they came out with this. They gasped it to get the Giants 'cause the Giants started over playing it, right? And you could see how both the safety fly down and then you see the Apex Defender fly down and what are they doing? They're running verts off that and it led to Jason Pinnock grabbing Zach Earths and it ended up being a catch but it would have been a defensive hold. So this is the toying with it. This is their toying with Shane Bowen at this point, right? 'Cause the adjustment was you got to start flying down because we want to play from depth, we got to start flying down aggressively. Well, okay, now we're going to gas that and we're going to run two verts off of it and it ended up being a catch anyways. Yeah, that's an excellent breakdown. That's a great example of like the chess match that you see between the offense coordinator and defense coordinator and in this scenario, it's just a knockout punch in a lot of ways there, in my mind, Shane Bowen. I clip Kingsbury exactly, a coordinator who is going to struggle throughout this season. And the point I was going to make, but before that I will say this, never apologize for talking a lot Nick 'cause I talk way too much on this podcast and I'm trying to work on that and do better with that and be more, what's the word, less verbose. So don't ever, and you're breaking that play, so you're doing a great job of that. But I do want to make this point. We never would have seen a game plan like this from Wink Marndale in 2022, his first coordinator, this is a Giants coordinator, against specifically a rookie or inexperienced quarterback. That's the point right there. This is not the game plan to do against an inexperienced quarterback. Put him to the test, play around the line of scrimmage, put everyone around the line of scrimmage, even if you want to play too high behind it, Nick, I would have been okay with that. If your whole offense is too high, fine. Leave two guys behind, but everyone else should be around the line of scrimmage against a rookie quarterback. And you should be dictating to that quarterback. He's not seen a lot in the NFL. You could mix stuff up, you can do different things, but it's just not what Shane Bone did in this game. And it's just very frustrating to watch on tape because it just doesn't make that much sense to me, especially then you add in the factor of this being a Cliff Kings very often. And it makes even less sense to me, dude. So I'm just at a loss for like what the idea was here from Shane Bone. - And then the successful, yeah, no, I know, man. Well, it seems like they couldn't really fit the run all that well. And a lot of that, though, wasn't as much the defense, I think as it was the person now. There were certainly plays where it was the defense, but in week one, it was like the defense was terrible at it. I don't think they were good at it in this game. And Bobby O'Karricki had a quote that Jordan Ronon tweeted about where he was like, I kind of had to do multiple players job. I'm not trying to point the finger. I'm just trying to point the thumb, basically saying we need to come together as a defense. And I think the big reason why is because if Dexter Lawrence isn't out there, they can't stop the run. - I was just going to say that, Nick. And I want to give you a lot of credit for this because, excuse me, you were hammering at home in this off season. The Giants didn't do enough on the interior defensive line. And the fact of the matter is, Asha Robinson is sorely missed on this defense. When you watch the tape, you learn things. And one of the things you always learn, I come back to this all the time, dude, when we do our film reviews, or even when we talk about the Giants in the off season, the importance of the trench play, the interior defensive lineman, the interior offensive lineman, they basically determine every game, for in my opinion, essentially in the NFL, out after quarterback. And right now, the Giants are really in a bad spot on the interior defensive line. If you watch the tape, Dexter Lawrence is phenomenal. One of the best interior defensive linemen in the NFL, if not the best, after him, dude, it's not pretty right now. Nacho is an okay player at best. There's a reason he was able to be signed. The kid, Chapman, he didn't play a lot this game. He got his role reduced. I thought he looked bad on the snaps that he was in there. I don't know necessarily if he's ever going to be anything more than a situational pass rusher that you can bring in. And even then, I'm not even sold on that. The other guys behind them, like I'm trying to look right now at the snap now. - DJ Davidson was bad. He only played, I think. - 11 snaps for DJ Davidson. - 11 or 11 bad snaps. - 11 bad snaps, DJ Davidson. Chapman, 16 snaps, not very good. - Yes, absolutely. And if you're watching on YouTube here, like this isn't even a screen. This is just a simple, quick game, but from a two by two set to the boundary side, that Washington knew how to screw with the Giants game plan, their philosophy, with just a simple stick flat, right? They're going to run stick. So basically, Deontay Banks is on the outside wide receiver right now. He is off him by about seven yards outside leverage to the boundary side. And then, I think it's Tyler Neubin, the safety. He is going to be on the H-back. The H-back though, is going to run to the flat. And that's going to initially force Tyler Neubin off of his spot and to the outside. Which is going to create space between the numbers and the hash. And that's exactly what happens because Deontay Banks is so far off of that number one wide receiver. So far off, he can't get over the top of Tyler Neubin and get to this wide receiver to mitigate this from being a completion. This is an easy completion and almost a turn up field from Washington. It's just like very simple football 101 type of stuff just messing with the scheme on the back end of the Giants because the Giants don't have a banjo set here at all. And they don't switch this release. They handle it that way. I'm not sure if they were supposed to. I see Deontay Banks point at Tyler Neubin. Maybe that was a missed call. I'm honestly unsure. There's no way I wouldn't know that. But this is simple stuff like Cliff Kingsbury. And it's concerning that he was able to do this basically all game. And every time the Giants tried to adjust, there was a counter punch. And the Giants had half their face exposed to it. - And that's the biggest issue I have, Nick. When you break it down like that, they're executing simple pass concepts. Why are you making things simple for a rookie quarterback? That's the biggest issue to me with this game. It's just, it's gotta be the opposite when you're facing somebody who hasn't seen a lot at the NFL level like Jane Daniels. And that's what Todd Bulls did to him last week. And I assume a lot of offensive coordinators are gonna do that to him. Hopefully Shane Bowe in the next time he sees him. - I mean, it would have been, like I just don't understand why you wouldn't, unless the things that we brought up at the top of the show, which is a very plausible explanation. Here's another third and one run. - Even then go down swinging, man. Like it just, they wouldn't have lost this game if they had a different plan on defense, I think. - Look, no Dexter Lawrence out there, dude. It's such a problem. - It's a nightmare. - And every team knows it. And by every team, I mean, the two teams of the Giants played in every team that's gonna watch the tape because every time it's this. This is just a simple zone read run. It's a third and one. All the linebackers in the safeties, they account for every single gap. But DJ Davidson has to handle a double team and he gets just uprooted from his one tech spot. He slants outside a little bit and then he just gets pushed out of that. You have Newman who in the B gap, you have Bobby O'Karrick a fill that A gap and you need DJ Davidson to be in the A gap where he is. And he just gets knocked down and Brian Robinson just picks up the first down very easily. And it's just little plays like this were a big problem. And here's that Cordell Flop play I mentioned. On the offensive podcast. Look, the Giants bottled this up. This is another third and one rush. And John Bates just washes cave on tibido down the line of scrimmage. Like, you won't see. I kind of think that's a hole if I'm just gonna call it like that. But still, just to see the strength of John Bates to do that. I'm imagining it's 'cause KT's feet got a little tangled up with the other player. But Cordell Flop's that contained defender and he pinches way too far in and Brian Robinson takes us for 40. And it's just like, you can't have that. And I'm looking around, I'm like, where's 33? Is 33 on the field? Where's 33? Is he there? No, why the hell is 33 not on the field? Like, was he hurt? Was this maybe after he got dinged up? I don't think so 'cause that was towards the end zone. And he ended up coming back anyway. So it's like, it's inexcusable that Cordell Flop out there on a third one where you're gonna need him to contain 'cause he can't do that. He shouldn't be on the football field to begin with, in my opinion. - That's a great point actually though. Like, it's a really bad personnel choice again from Shane Bowen in this regard. Though I do wanna get credit where it's due, you really did a great job, I thought, of evaluating that Brian Robinson-Bama tape 'cause not a lot of people are onto him. And I think he's really talented NFL runner, like just a great traffic by watching. Like every time I watch him on film and we get to do the commander's games, I'm always impressed by him. - Yeah, yeah. And I just showed a third and 14 run. You know, like, again-- - That was such a bad play call this third and 14 run by Bowen, like, look at this space there. - Well, this, yeah, I'm sorry. But like, this is what Shane Bowen likes to do. We did this all the time at Tennessee. He had defensive linemen though, and he had players like Autry who could really fill a role for him. The Giants don't have that behind Dexter Lawrence. Dexter Lawrence is out there, but you have the wide rushes. This is a passing situation. The Giants thought they were gonna pass. They don't need anybody in the middle of the field, but they end up running. And they did this, we'll see it in a little bit. And that forces of Carricket off of this pile. Carricket needs to account for where Zach Earth is, but you can see him still splitting the difference. He's inside of Zach Earth. So he has inside leverage. I'm imagine if this was a pass, he'd probably wall off one of those receivers. But instead, now he needs to just rush over to that A-gap and he gets juked out of his shoe. That's a beautiful move by Austin Eckler, mind you. But yeah, O'Carrey, that's a tough assignment for Bobby O'Carricket, right? 'Cause you have those two defensive linemen who need to account for that. And they can't 'cause it was such an obvious passing situation in Austin Eckler and they're picking up 14 on this rush. And then later on in the game, we see this side-car pistol formation. This is another half-back draw. And DJ Davidson tries to go through the B-gap and no one's in that A-gap and there's no Dexter Lawrence out there, man. And all those linebackers are playing at depth. And you could see, they think it's a draw, or they think it's a pass, they think it's a pass, they think it's a pass, oh no, it's a run, shit. At that point, defensive linemen aren't gonna stop them with 97s not out there. The edges aren't in position, stop them, they're rushing the passer. This is an easy run. And every team is gonna be able to do this. Like these obvious passing situations, if you can't fit the run, they're not gonna be so obvious anymore. And then that's gonna really limit what the Giants can do defensively, especially with their sub-packages. - It's a great point. And that's something that we'll keep an eye on because if they become too predictable in that regard, you're just gonna see teams do exactly what Washington did in this game. But yeah, it was really frustrating to watch this tape obviously for, I mean, even just there. Like there's so many missed tackles in this game I thought from the Giants, poor discipline. Jason Pinnock, I did not think I had a good game. He's a player I really like as a younger player. But just to me, it all just does come down to the game plan. To me, it just did not make sense for what I think you should do to Cliff King's very in a rookie quarterback. With all that said, Nick, I wanna talk about some players here. - Yeah, talk about some players. I also would just wanna say as you're watching on YouTube, I encourage people who are watching on podcast to go to the YouTube, give a click, like, comment, all that kind of stuff. - Yeah, nice. Nick and Bob are gonna give a couple of please for the likes. Let me tell you something for those listening and watching. It's a rough year, we know it, it's on too. But look at all the work we're putting in. We're putting this in because we love it and we enjoy it. We're also putting it in because you guys enjoy it and you love it. But there's one way to show us. You enjoy it and you love it by liking the video. Let me tell you something. Last week and the week before, there were two videos that you guys did a great job of interacting with comments and likes. And I'm learning now through the algorithm, Nick, that comments are also helpful in driving views and people to our site. - Yeah. - And I could see based on the videos, how many people subscribe to the podcast. We are getting new subscribers when you hit the like and when you comment on the videos. So again, 13 seconds, 14 seconds, it'll like button, maybe less, you wanna add a comment that's like 30 to 40 seconds of your time. I really appreciate it and Nick does as well. Help us grow this page. It's tough times, it's hard to grow a podcast when your team is this dog shit. It really is. It's just a reality of the situation. But if you can help us grow, we promise that when this does get good again, if it does get good again, I can't believe I'm saying the word if Nick, but when, let's just say, giants football, I mean, it's gonna be a lot of fun. So please help support the show, now back to the show. - Yeah, thank you so much. So this jet sweep, this run the receiver right in front of Jane Daniels, 'cause they weren't shotgun like the entire game, essentially. And they did this a lot and then they would end up throwing it or touch pass. And you could see like how the giants just never really had a beat on what exactly was happening. Everything was horizontal in this game with this. You see them all shift, wear their eyes, wear their eyes, just hand the football at the Brian Robinson and then what do they do? They pull that backside guard or their center and then you just have extra gaps that need to be accounted for from defenders who are struggling to tackle. Like the amount that the giants were putting on Bobby O'Karrick's plate in this game is insane. And it could have been so much worse if this was the 2022 linebacker group. But they actually have a competent linebacker back there. And I'll also say, I thought Michael McFadden, all things considered looked solid in this game. So they need to figure this out. And as I bring that up, there's the Michael McFadden mist sack. This ended up going down as a sack anyways, but it could have been a much bigger deal than they ended up, I think, picking up this first down. If he sacked him here, it could have killed the drive and forced maybe a punt. Oh, novel concept. But I love this blitz though. This is a great blitz. Look, you have decks as the one. You have Elijah Chapman as the four eye and he's stacked. Michael McFadden is stacked behind Elijah Chapman. You're gonna have decks occupied the center. Chapman's gonna occupy the guard. Who is gonna be in the A gap if Austin Echler is not in protection? Nobody. It's a very well designed blitz. And you're just gonna have Bobby O'Karrick a handle Austin Echler. So that's not gonna be too big of an issue if Jane Daniels is in process it right away. It's just Michael just doesn't get the sack, which is unfortunate. But it's well designed. Again, it's just, I don't know how much we're gonna see this though. If they can't stop the frickin' run and they're never in these passing situations. - Good point, 'cause they gotta have these types of situations. They have to be able to rush the passer, which means they have to put them in third and passing down. - There's their spies, man. Like I heard Dabel say after the game is, "Oh yeah, we had spies on some of them." Yeah, in the red zone. - Right. - Where's your quarterback spy on these third and tens? Isaiah Simmons, and he's just playing from depth. Is that what it is? - Why do you need so many guys dropping in depth there to cover those row combinations just crazy? Just so much of this game was played by the Giants, not near the line of scrimmage. I just don't, I get that for some quarterbacks, Nick, and some facing some offense is like, the system makes sense to some regard if you can get the guys on the right page. But every game is different. And when you're facing the most horizontal offense in the NFL, that's what Clifking's very as offense is. Maybe actually Shane Waldron's gonna give him a run for his money. God, I hate watching Shane Waldron call football game, dude. I am so sad that Caleb has Shane Waldron. And it is so crazy to watch Geno Smith of Ryan Grub now after having Shane Waldron almost completely unraveled. All the progress Geno made the year before with Canals. But anyway, point being, when you have a horizontal offense and a rookie quarterback, play around the line of scrimmage. It's pretty simple. It's not a novel concept. How's the coaches do it? Wink did it all throughout his career. - Yeah, here's a play that Michael McFadden, it's a slight on him, I guess, if you want to say that. But this is like how he confused the Giants defense, especially from depth is you use this guy in jet motion, hike the football, the mesh point happens. You have three players who are threats. Jane Daniels, Brian Robinson, and then the motioning defender right in front, who they were also using at this point in the game. Mike McFadden has to step to the run. They weren't really defending the run all that well. So they have to account for Brian Robinson, and then they realize it's a pass. And at this point, Mike McFadden kind of, I guess, forgets that he has this defender coming over. Nobody accounts for him, or at least maybe he thought the safety was going to, so it's a miscommunication. And now you have, what, 15 yards of space between Mike and McFadden and off the necklace. And I'm not sitting here to chastising McFadden, it's just the amount of pre-snap movement and motion, which is crazy, 'cause I don't think Cliff is known for that, that just got the Giants eyes out of place. Tells me one thing, completely opposite from the offense of lying, Dan. This is not a cohesive unit, and this is not a unit that is playing with any sort of confidence whatsoever, this defense, that stuff needs to get rectified. And you know what, they have a good matchup, against a bad offense, again, coming up with the Cleveland Browns on the road, man, but they need to do something, they need to fix this, 'cause this was atrocious. - And to speak to your point, you are correct. Cliff Kingsbury is not known for using a lot of pre-snap motion, he upticked it this week, and he caught Shane Bowen off guard by doing so. It's clear watching the tape. So another notch in Cliff Kingsbury's belt, I mean, he dominated the chess match against Shane Bowen. It's not a good sign for the Giants, if Shane Bowen, our new defensive coordinator, is getting nominated in the chess match by Cliff Kingsbury, 'cause he's gonna face a lot smarter and a lot better offense coordinators throughout the year. - Exactly, man, like, look, this is clear outs, and there's a lot of different options, a lot of RPO, a lot of options for Jane Daniels, but you're gonna run also an Echler to the boundary, and Deontay Banks ends up carrying this tight end, along with the safety, nobody accounts for also an Echler. Again, this is the second time in a row, now that I'm showing you that-- - Yes. - Also, Echler is unaccounted for in the flat, because of, I believe players on the defense not fully understanding where they have to be, and we know this is a young secondary, but again, this is surprising that it ended up not going for a touchdown, and our guy, Andrew Phillips, one of the best players all of Sunday, ends up taking a huge shot from Echler here. Like, that's a crappy position to find yourself in, if you're all, Andrew Phillips, you're carrying this dude all the way up the field, you're tight in coverage on him, and the next thing you know, it's a blocker, and also an Echler running full speed for momentum directly at you, like that sucks, man. - It's not pretty. Speaking of individual players in this game, Nick, Andrew Phillips, you mentioned, who I thought probably had the best game of any Giants third round pick I can remember. Single game in years, dating back to Mero Manningham. I think he plays a different level of energy. I think he understands space really well, and he's really good around those line of scrimmage. He's really physical and tough. There's a reason why like, you know, some of these defenders I've loved coming out of the draft, and he wasn't one of them on that level, but like a Jalen Petrie, why I love them, is just their ability to be that fuel general, that guy around the line of scrimmage that makes a difference with this physicality. And I think Andrew Phillips is showing signs that I also thought he was pretty good in coverage when I focused on him in his coverage. So I'm like really intrigued and really impressed by Andrew Phillips. Really good start. Cave on Thibodeau, you tweeted about it, and I came to the same conclusion, dude, I didn't think he looked that bad in this game. I know Giants fans were really down on these two edges, but I thought he looked pretty okay in this game. I don't want to say he was amazing, but he had some pretty good quick moves inside moves, some inside pass rush moves, where I was thought he won on the inside and got pressure a few times where he was this close to getting a sack, just didn't get it. Were your thoughts on those two players, Drew and Cave on? - Yeah, Drew was amazing. I don't need to waste time, valuable time to usher praise on him. I'll say this though, those DBs, their speed turns are on point, man. They're very fluid. They're very fluid players. I think they're both true man coverage type guys. I think they could be fine in this role. A lot of the plays end up turning into man coverage anyways, but Deontay Banks and Drew Phillips, there were a couple of different plays, and we know O'Dory Jackson can do this as well, where they opened their hips one way, and then the wide receiver broke another way, and they were able to speed turn and then stay right in the hip pocket. And those guys do that very well. Flot, not so much. That's going to be a problem. And I'm running a bunch of Cave on plays for those who are watching on YouTube. As for KT, yeah, he played with a fire under his ass. There are still aspects of Cave on Tableau that that's a little frustrating. He kind of only has like one pass rushing move, and that is to use a double swipe and then try to rip through the outside shoulder. And it's a solid move, but he like, I would think at this point, he would develop more of a pass rushing repertoire. He really hasn't. Brian Burns, I want to see more from Burns. Burns, he dealt with a lot of running back chips, some tight ends, but still, man, you need to find ways to win some of these one-on-one mad. There were times where Wiley just won, you know? And you would imagine your guy getting paid that much money would end up beating a player like Andrew Wiley, more than 50% of the time, and he just wasn't. So that's kind of my takeaway on that. He's not playing up to his contract. I don't think he's terrible, though. I think he's still making plays. I think he's one of the better zone read defenders I've watched just because he is so uber athletic, but we need to see more from him. We need to see him actually make the sacks, sacks quarterback. He should have had the one that was a sack on him, but I get called back because of a stupid defensive hold. - Yeah, which wasn't even a real defensive holding, like some are, but yeah, it's just that he's talking about the Zach Ernst true-filled play is what Nick's referring to, which is a van that we call for sure. Mike McPhan, you mentioned earlier, I was like, 'cause sometimes I write down these notes from the tape review, and I'm like, I still don't make him a fan at a pretty damn good game on tape. I know he had some mistakes, but he, I was a little bit worried about how he changed his system, and I also think, by the way, he'd have much better second half than first half McPhan, which I don't know if that's like a thing, like if that he just needed time to really get adjusted the game plan or whatever it may be. But I was definitely thinking he was more, for me at least he was on the more of the side of, I was impressed with how he played, and he wasn't part of this issue as much. - Yeah, I agree. And I was questioning that going into the game 'cause what style looked solid in we doing all things considered. - And it's funny because the giants suck against the run, and I'm not sitting here saying these linebackers are terrible, it's definitely more of the linebackers have a such a heavy burden on their shoulders with this specific systems, with a lot of middle of the field open looks, so those safeties are a little bit off, and now you just have those linebackers, when 97 is not out there, I look at Bobbie O'Kerke and I'm like, good luck. Good luck 'cause you have your run fit, you have your gap that you need to worry about, but you gotta kind of worry about like, 'cause they're not executing their roles, man. - I don't remember talking like this during the wink 10 year dude, I really don't. - No, yeah, well, wink rolled out a lot more base, a lot of like five man fronts. - Yeah. - You've seen a lot of four. - Turn it down for the five man front dude, to be honest, in the NFL, you don't really need to be playing this off, like quarterbacks aren't making you pay anymore. We're seeing, this is crazy dude, I don't know if you saw the stats from today, they're two of the most unbelievable stats. The first one is passing touchdowns. For six straight years, we had over a hundred passing touchdowns in the first two weeks of the season, collectively as an NFL. Last year it dropped to 80, this year is 60 something, 63 or 64 going into Monday night football, passing yards per game. We were averaging 250 as a collective hole for six straight years. Last year it dropped to like 220, this year it's been like 200. So like these quarterbacks are not making you pay, you can still get the job done by playing, like we need to start, like I just don't really understand the idea of playing off the line of scrimmage anymore as a defense, 'cause there's different ways, like I told you this off season Nick, I'm happy we're going back, I'm in some ways happy that we're going away from Wick Marndale because a lot of the NFL has shifted to these two high looks. But there's different ways to do it. It doesn't all evolve around, like the way Shane Bones doing it right now is not the way I've seen every defense coordinator, like all these other coordinators who are playing these two deep shells do it. There's different more creative ways you can get with the rest of the guys on your team, not just the two safeties over the top, but you don't have to play, you can play middle of the field open like the Giants want to play, obviously, and then still do creative things with your front with your second and first level. But I just don't think the Giants are just playing too far off the ball. Don't really know why. - Well, again, man, you kind of said it a little bit earlier when you're playing a coordinator like Cliff Kingsbury, you need to account for his philosophy and what he's going to do. And it's no secret, everybody knows what he does with the air raid. And when you couple that with a young quarter, exactly, it's very funny. When you couple that with a young quarter back who might be a little bit hesitant to let it rip and he had a couple throws that were nice in his game, he had a couple throws that I was like, that was off target. Like the Jason Peinock interception or interception, I should say, should be an interception was not really a good throw. - Was the main sort of high and it was not in a lot of drive on it. - Exactly, and one of our big concerns other than the run defense from week one was defending outside the numbers, specifically three man route concepts. And we saw the Giants get carved up by that again. It didn't happen all that much. A lot of the three by one sets that were run by Washington were throws at the line of scrimmage, right behind the line of scrimmage. But when they did run three by one sets, they ran a scissors concept with an in route. They ran or Washington I'm talking about. They had, I think, two sail concepts. So they're just flooding one side of the field. There's always a receiver open. There's always a player in conflict. And that player in conflict doesn't really do a good job mitigating that conflict. They usually just like clams down on the player in front of them. And then you have a seven route just chilling with a safety like well over top, like scrambling to go get them. And so they're not playing together at this moment. And they need to figure out their run defense and they need to figure out their ability to defend flood concepts to boundary or field side, mind you, 'cause there were times where the Giants were playing inside leverage to the field. So you have a corner, you have a wide receiver outside the numbers, corner backs like seven, eight yards off, playing inside, basically saying like, I don't think you're going to make this throw outside the numbers with me this far inside. Shane Daniels would make that throw. And we've seen a lot of coordinators do the same thing to the New York Giants and Daniel Jones. And you need to be able to make that throw to adjust the defense. So there's more space in the middle of the field. So you don't have somebody playing inside leverage to the field because you could just throw it over the top of them and put it down. It's very hard, not a lot of quarterbacks can do it. But Daniels had the stones to do it though in this game. I think once maybe twice and the Giants, it's just, it's been unfortunate, man. I don't know if this is going to change. I don't know what exactly to make of it or if this is a product of it being also new. But if Bowen doesn't figure it out, bro, like I don't know how long he lasts here. And then I don't, would they give the job the Jerome? I know I'm putting the cart way before the horse here, right? You have Jerome Henderson here, but it would be really awkward. It's like, all right, you know how we hired this guy over here, Jerome, you want the job? That's not like great professionally for him. It's almost like a slap in the face. - Yeah, it is. It's just frustrating, dude, because I think just like from a basic football standpoint, I'll ask you this and we can get in some reprosives or anything else you want to touch on from the tape, but like the Giants didn't force a single point in this game, right? It's the main reason they lost this game. But did you really feel like Jayden Daniels, the quarterback for the other team, played a phenomenal game? The answer is clearly no. Like the tape tells that story. So like they were dominated despite the opposing quarterback not being really doing much and not playing that could have a game. It's just how do you let that happen? Well, one way to let it happen is all that you just broke down, Nick, you're not, you're not fitting your run, your run plays and you're playing so far off against a horizontal rate. Like it's just crazy, dude. It was like almost like just free pass after free pass, after free pass that chain bow and afforded Cliff Kingsbury in this game, which is just, it's very frustrating. No, I know. And they tried to adjust and then they would get beat off the adjustment. It was a masterclass by Cliff against the chain bow. Which should never happen. And again, like the run support is certainly an issue. I don't know if structurally it was as poor as it was in week one, but you look at the stats and it's bad. It's just like a missed tackles here and trying to trust. It's not having a single DJ Davidson. Right. It's not having a detackle behind Lawrence. And I looked at the snap counts, Nick. And the only detackle really played in this game anyway, was Nacho besides sex with Lawrence. Like DJ Davidson had a handful of snaps. So did Jordan Riley at six or something. And Chapman had 12 or 11, I believe. They're just not rotating these defensive stacks. They don't have any defensive stack of depth at all. That's what it is. I'm glad Nacho's playing that much. I guess so, 'cause we have no other option. The only other guy I would like look at and be like, let's give him a shot as Jordan Riley. Right. DJ Davidson and it's not Chapman in running situations. I'm fine with putting Chapman in there. 307 plus and having him pin his ears back. I think he adds a little spark and energy. We haven't really seen much of it. And he was pretty bad in week one. But who else are you putting there if you're going to use a defensive tackle? I thought Ujolari had a, had Pep in his step in this game as another player that I can bring up. Yeah, dude, his bend. There was one rep where he won high side and bends. He is like 22 snaps, Ojolari. 12 is a pass rusher for when they ran the ball. And he was credited for one pressure. Yeah, he's, he's an impressive mover. He definitely is. And he was able to make a couple like TFLs that he's going to grade well on PFF. But it didn't really seem like anybody was too enthused to block him. Like he's kind of squeaked through. But hey, good on you at that point. I think he's a, it's a much better situation to have him as your third rusher than having Nacho as your second defensive tackle. Yeah, that's a great point. It's a bad spot that he put themselves in. D line, you know, we knew they couldn't bring it up again. Rome wasn't built on a day. We knew they couldn't fix this all in one off season. Nick from a resources standpoint. But it's so hard to win football when you don't have interior defensive lineman that can play at a high level. You just, cause things like a game like that, like again, like just didn't feel like Jayden Daniels played good enough to have not planted all game. It didn't look like he did almost anything out there. They had several third and long plays, man. The third and long chunk plays, the pendulum of mediocrity swings in every direction for the New York Giants. The Giants have been a, had so many defensive linemen recently come through the building high respect. And now they allocate resources to other positions and they're like, you know what? We're going to trust a bunch of UDFAs and a bunch of day three picks. We're not going to find anybody else, you know, you could have went out and got a guy like Nick Williams. And I'm not saying that as of right now, but with the Giants in 2022 when they had Nick Williams before we ended up getting injured, respect my role for the New York Giants, right? But they didn't do that. They trusted these young guys and now they're in this position. - I even just think that, for some reason, it didn't work out. I know he didn't play at all, but like, just think the dude they traded to the Cowboys, I'm forgetting his name from the Bills. If he just had Jordan Phillips on the field, it would look better. Like just simply just taking up gaps, like, but how massively huge this human being is. They don't have that outside of Dexter Lawrence. They don't have any massive human beings. But you basically need to fit, like, to help your run defense. At least one other, it should have at least one other massive human at interior defensive line right now. Like not just Jordan Riley's a big guy, but like, they don't trust Riley and they don't trust DJ Davidson for whatever reason. So it's like, - Oh, and they trust Davidson. I just think when they put him out there, it's not good and they have to take him off the field. - Not good. - Davidson's earning snaps. And this is a second game right in this game. I'm trying to, I'm looking at it right now. He only played 11 snaps in this game, DJ Davidson. They were bad snaps. - 'Cause they were bad. If he was out there and Brian Robinson wasn't getting 18, 22 yards, right? Through his run fitting responsibility or his gap responsibility, he probably would have played more than 11 snaps. - Painful. It's a New York Giants. All right, Nick, let's wrap up with some superlatives here. Obviously, when you do a deep game like this, it's hard to find them, but give me your unheralded player of the game. - I went with Micah McFadden. First game back. I felt like he was flying around. He had very aggressive attacking. Down last game, I think he had a lot on his plate as well as Bobby O'Karrick. He was not perfect, but I considered him for highest effort player as well, but I gave him unheralded 'cause no one's talking about it. - Yeah, we didn't look at ours beforehand, but I also had Micah McFadden. I had a runner up though. My runner up was Tyler Neubin. I like what I see from Tyler Neubin. It didn't show up as much in the box score this game or whatnot, but I think we're trending in the right direction. But also both those DBs. I think we finally might've figured this thing out as far as scouting these DBs a little late with the Cordell Flod situation, but look, who cares at this point? It's good to have that. So highest effort player, it's the same player I think for both of us. - Yeah, it's true. - It's Drew Phillips. Man, this dude looks like he's playing with his hair on fire and it's cool to see a rookie like this who just really wants to make a name for himself, right? I even saw he, was it maybe Justin Panic or somebody did a video on Drew Phillips? And then, no, it wasn't that. Nevermind. Ryan Clark talked about how impressed he was with the former safety for the Washington. Talked about how impressed he was with Drew Phillips and Drew Phillips's like, quote tweet him. It was like, thank you, bro. You could just tell this dude wants to make a name for himself. And he's got the right DNA, I think, to be a big time player for the Giants. I'm very excited about Drew Phillips moving forward. A lot of people were skeptical with that picnic. A lot of people said that was the worst pick of the draft. It was a reach. It didn't make any sense. We should have taken an offensive lineman. I don't think we're gonna be saying that for long. I really don't. - No, I mean, it was a pick that I was like, ah, it might be a little, like, did you plug it in? 'Cause I think they really wanted Max Melton, but so far, I mean, it's very early on in his career. He's looked very good. - Yeah. I know why it's coming out. - I'll say this, like Max Melton had great tape. We both know that. You turn me on some early and like the coverage is sticky. Like a DJ Turner asked like, fun to watch. But like, I just always will appreciate a Drew Phillips type in my network. Like this physicality, this, and you saw that on his tape. Like you knew what he was bringing in. It's just so important in the NFL to win around the line of scrimmage and have players who can win around the line of scrimmage. - 100% dude. Like that play where he spun out, that that was a sensational play. If that was Brian Brant, that was like Brian Brant or a player who isn't Drew Phillips, somebody of a higher pedigree. That would be a goal all around to it. Oh, this is a rookie third round pick. Like he's making the name for himself and I'm very happy for him. - Good, Andru, how about best player overall? I don't think we're gonna have too many different. What we should, it should eventually be Burns or Thibodeau, but it's not this game. - It's Dex. I mean, again, you take him off the, like he's the MVP of the team, arguably. You take him, like I remember League Neighbors or Andrew Thomas. You take him off the field. The defense is significantly worse. And it shows through two weeks. - It's bad. Player, we expect to see more from. - Brian Burns. - Okay. I think that's obvious. And I think that's fair to say though. I felt like at times again, look, I think you nailed it. The matchup is the reason why it's fair to say Burns here because it's a, he should be winning this matchup. I don't think he was as bad as fans think, but this is just one of his best matchups of the year. - But the matchup also works against them though too. - It did because they're throwing the ball. And for this horizontal, how's that? - Who's fault is that though? Is there a defensive coordinator in the system that is putting them in a position where the football's coming out of Jane Daniels' hands? Like that. - They're allowing him to do that. Which is something Bulls did not do last week as the main point there. But I'll give it to Jason Pinnock. I just, Pinnock's a guy like a young player. This was not a good game for Jason Pinnock. Too many missed tackles, poor angles to the football I thought. Playing from depth. I mean, this is just what they're doing. But like, I expected more from him. So that's my guy. - How about pass rushing grade one through 10? - They had five sacks. So no, I had a four point two. And that might be a little bit high. But again, I think a lot of, it's kind of hard to give a number for this with the system that Cliff Fran and how the Giants ended up playing it. I don't want to lay that at the feet of the pass rushes as much as maybe week one where like Cave on Tibbida was absolutely dominant. Cave on actually had some nice pass rushes. So the Dexter Lawrence. And I thought Burns had a couple. So 4.2 might be a little bit too much. But I also appreciated, and now when we're not praising Bowen here, the few blitzes that they ran that was solid with Jason Pinnock and Micah McFadden. So that's one of the reasons why I bumped up. And I want to drop it down to 3.8, talk myself into it. - I'm actually higher than you. I'm 4.4, just from watching the tape, my evaluation of what I saw was some pass rushes that got there on the limited opportunities they had to actually do it. Especially Cave on Tibbida, a few from Burns as well. And then just good time blitzes by Bowen occasionally. But there's a lot of opportunities. It's still not a high grade, 4.4. It's just solid, a little below average, I should say. Run defense one through 10. - I'm gonna go one three. - It's bad. I'm at 0.9, 0.9. I just, I just, look. There were very few times they stopped them. They had it bottled up to one time, Brian Robinson. And then they even found a way to turn into a 40 yard game for the opposing team. It was ugly, dude. - There were some plays where McFadden and O'Kareke was like, that was a damn good play by those two guys. - And there was a couple decks in the red zone where he just takes over, but like, we shouldn't be looking at four or five handful of run plays that are successful or defense. When you know their game plan is to run the football and keep everything around the line of scrimmage. - Yeah, you're not gonna hear me complain about that. I agree with him. - So that's all we got for today. Thank you so much for tuning in to Big Ooh Banter podcast. Please like and subscribe, support the show. And have a great rest of your week. [BLANK_AUDIO]
